To put an end to the debate (or to fan the flames) I’ve decided to post this four-part examination into the hard-core, rap-core, professing Christian rock band P.O.D. After checking out the links, I’d like to hear from you.
Part 1: What About POD?
Part 2: POD and Rastafarianism
Part 3: POD’s Confusing Christianity
Part 4: What About POD’s Occult Symbols?
So, what do you think?
Christ Alone Wyoming 
let he who is without sin throw the first stone.
(tatoos dont bar you from heaven) pull your head in
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Adam,
What are you talking about?
Please don’t misapply Scripture. Nothing is more annoying than someone who knows two or three bible verses then slings them around in a manner that they were never intended to be. If I had to guess, your other favorite verse is Matthew 7:1.
Secondly, you apparently got hung up on the tattoo stuff. Perhaps you should consider the other items too, like the occultic aspect before coming to the hasty conclusion that you did.
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Although I believe your heart is in the right place, there are hundreds of problems with your arguments. I must admit that I don’t have the time to talk about each problem right now, but one that is GLARINGLY wrong is the false accusation that P.O.D. does not present the Gospel. In almost every song, P.O.D. discusses their beliefs. For example, in the song “Every Knee,” Sonny sings “Every knee shall bow… and to the name of Jesus, every tongue shall confess that He is King”(Bliblical quote). Also, in another song, they proclaim “He’s coming back for me and you!”Below, I have added some more lyrics of songs:
“Get it Straight. God’s invisible power and dignity…” – Get It Straight
“I show it, and let it be known, this Great News. I live my life for Christ… We rock the show, we rock some more, and He gets the Glory, because this is how we preach His Word and tell His Story. Because when it comes to my God, there ain’t no playin’ around. We can either get on our knees or we can get down.” – Get It Straight
“Now come and get some of this spirituality. Dedicated my life and I’m a soldier of G-O-D…. Come and get a piece of His Love before it’s too late. We bless You Lord – You’re my God and You’re my life!” – Get It Straight
“Run His Way… But I still believe in You Lord, and I know Your still real Lord. So come and take me away from this place, and everyday I seek Your face.” – Run
“If you live a life of sin then you don’t know what you are getting in to.” – Snuff the Punk
“When my King is speaking you better take a seat kid.” – Snuff the Punk
“So put on the Armour of God (Ephesians), because the day of fighting will come. But the victory is already ours – Three Christs in the Power of One! The Power of Christ.” – Three in the Power of One”
“Christ is King. He is God.” – Every Knee
“Because He’s the One who gives me love, and He’s the One that gives me Truth, and He’s the One who gives me life…if you lose your life than you lose youe soul. He died for you, there ain’t no catch.” – Bonus song from Snuff the the Punk CD
“We give props to Jesus Christ. Yeah, worship That, worship That!” – Bonus song from Snuff the Punk CD
“Abortion is murder! There’s nothing you can say or do to justify the fact that there’s a living, breathing being inside of you.” – Abortion Is Murder
“My faith keeps me driven. The only difference between you and me, Holmes, is that I’m forgiven.” – Know Me
“Can’t bring a brother down when there’s no fear of death. Filled with the Light so you can’t stand the sight of me. Next to the Conquering Lion at His right I’ll be!…Embraced in Your Word I stand, I have no fear… I’m sheltered by Your Blood, Your sweat, and Your tears.” – Selah
“Kill me, beat me, break my bones. I already gave up my life, you’ll never have my soul. Give credit to the One Who paid for your crimes. I suffered for His name and I’m gonna die for mine.” – Selah
“Identify your real Master. Recognize and obey the Sacrifice.” – Selah
“Who’s in me? What I see? What I hear? [It’s] my God!…’And it shall come to pass afterwards that I’m going to poor out My Spirit on all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesize, the old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see vision'(Biblical quote).” – Visions
“I get up by Your Strength and rise up to Thee, but I’ll stay on my face if You will of me. Shape and mold me until Your through, I humble myself, my life lay before You… I count joy through all my trials and tribulations, because in the end there is peace. Let the beat take you out and get some of that peace. Christ is King.” – One Day
“I’m sitting here waiting for the train to Zion.” – Breathe Babylon
“My King is He in the Power of Three… you get so scared and so mad when I say the Word ‘Jesus.’ I ‘ain’t down, you preach too much,’ but if you ask me, boy, I think I don’t preach enough. I tell you, God is real, so don’t miss the boat… I’m the only person you see, but it ain’t me that you mock. Will you deny His name, or are you will to admit It? And if so, are you will to die for It? Because I am, He is my life, and I don’t have to fear death because he already paid the price. Turn away, turn away, or it’s your own loss, because all I can do is just take them to the Cross.” – Preach
“If Jesus saved your life, could He do it for me? I’d sacrifice my life for you and for Him. I believe God’s Promise, I’m going to see you again. Lord here I am, but I am no one. I believe in Your Name, and in Your Son. And if You leave me here, I’ll do what You want me to. I’ll sacrifice and serve, do what You want me to. I’ll take it day by day and sit at Your feet. Because You are strong when I am weak.” – Full Color
“Before I was lost, but now I am found. I’m seeking the Wise. …No where to run… because You are the Son!” – Seeking the Wise
“Who am I God, that You would cast Your cares and Your mercy and Your forgiveness on a sinner like me?… You came to love, and You died to love. Praise Him!” – Live CD
“Give the Lord your heart right now. This ain’t a rock and roll show. The Lord desires to hear the praises of His People.” – Live CD
“Lord Jesus, i want to be like You!” – Live CD
“I want to praise Him with you guys. Let the Lord speak to your heart. Do not leave this fair grounds without God speaking to your heart. We need Him, we need Him every day, every minute. Praise the Lord people. Do you feel the Presence of God? It’s beautiful, it’s wonderful, it’s satisfying, it’s everlasting, it’s for real!” – Live CD
“Take them to the Cross- When words fail, when you fail. Just show them Jesus. Take them to the Cross!” – Live CD
“Let God heal you, let God restore you, God is in control. Let the Lord restore you. Anybody that has doubts, or is caring the burdens of a lost one. Let the Lord restore you tonight!” – Live CD
“I lie down, and I sleep, and when I wake, You have sustained me!” (Biblical quote from a Psalm of David) – Lie Down
“Tell me Mr. Deadman, do you have the answer? How you can get to heaven?… I’ll tell you if you wanna know, believe in Jah Jah’s [(God’s) derived from the term Halellujah] Son.” – Set Your Eyes to Zion
“Leave me Salvation, and pierce these Palms of Holy Hands.” – Set Your Eyes to Zion
Psalm 150 is read in its entirety in Hebrew (Psalm 150 from The Fundamental Elements of Southtown), which for many, sparks a curiousity and successfully motivates them to open up the Word of God to read the English translation and in doing so, find other Scriptures to read as well.
The song “Image” from The Fundamental Elements of Southtown gives us a Biblical Portrait of Christ.
“What good is it for a man to gain the whole world yet lose or forfeit his very self? He must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. If anyone is ashamed of Me then I will be ashamed of him.” – Follow Me
“I tell you the Truth, some of you who are standing hear will not taste death before they see Jah’s (God’s) Creation come with His Power. What can a man give in exchange for his own soul which he cannot save? When the time comes, in His Glory, we will rise” (Biblical quotes). – Follow Me
“They feed us lies. You dressed up my King in false disguise… Tonight we break the surface; for lives we are coming up.” – Outkast
“And now that I know You, I can never turn my back away. And now that I’ve seen You, I could never look away. And now that I’ve seen You, I believe no matter what they say.” – Alive
“I’ve committed my life to Rebirth.” – Boom
“Many were called but the Chosen are few.” – Boom
“It’s the blind leading the blind…There’s gotta be more to life than this, there’s gotta be more to everything that exists.” – Youth of the Nation
“I follow the Son and dance on to Zion.” – Satellite
“This I pledge and I’ll take it to my death: I lay my life down for You and die over again. I’m not ashamed of the Most High even if I die tonight. This I pledge and I take it to my death: You can bet your life on the Word and everything I said. You can’t take away my life for this Sacrifice even if I die tonight.” – The MessenJah
“Some people call You Father, maybe You could set me free. These people hate each other, but You’ve always been there for me. I know You will complete this work started in me. I need You more than ever now that I know Who You are. I need You more than ever now that I’ve come so far.” – Portrait
“Me want untamed Jah (God’s) glow… One leads with the Passion. The Righteous will burn again. One bleeds everlasting. Tribal Fire (God’s Light) will never end.” – Wildfire
“Freedom Fighters ignite Jah (show God). Freedom Fighters shine Jah.” – Freedom Fighters
“Jah say ‘Live Free!’ Jah say ‘Die Free!'” – Freedom Fighters
The song “I and Identify” quotes I Corinthians 13 as the basis for the entire song.
“I will die to breathe again” (Clearly stating that P.O.D. chooses to die to there old selves and breathe, or live, again in Christ). – Asthma
“I believe in the Resurrection of Christ, and His Death brought forth new Life, and He brought back Lazurus from the grave. I believe in the Second Coming. Thou shalt love thy neighbor. I believe in heaven and hell. The Rider of the White Horse is coming back for the righteous and the Morning Star is getting brighter every day. I believe in the Trinity, and I’ll live eternally. I’m not perfect, just forgiven. I believe in One God, one aim, and destinity. Just don’t forget your First Love.” – If It Wasn’t for You
“I can still see the Light at the end of the tunnel shine. Do I believe what I can’t see? How do you know which way the wind blows? Because I can see it all around. ‘When will we sing a new song?’ (a Psalm of David). If joy really comes in the morning time, then I’m going to sit back, relax, and wait until the next sunrise.” – Goodbye for Now
“Jah of Jacob deserving of my love, God Isaac Whom blessing flow from above. Hashem of Abraham will show me the Way. I go down on my knees and this is what I pray. ‘Strength of my life, whom shall I dread when evildoers come to devour my flesh? Even if there would be an army against me, my heart would not fear,’ (a Psalm of David). Take away the scars from my eyes. Annoint You Love upon my life. Have mercy on my soul and hear me when I cry. Don’t abondon me, and don’t forsake me. Lead me on the path of integrity.” – Strength of My Life
“One testifies, see the fire in His Eyes… Mark my words! Who’s got that witch (meaning ‘who’s got my back and is looking out for the evil one sneaking up’). ‘Be not far from me, for trouble is near, and there is none to help (a Psalm of David).” – Mark My Words
“The Son shines; keep your head up towards the Light. Release, the soul is burning so you can learn to fly (learn how to get to heaven). So fly! It’s only your’s if you take it.” – Generation
“I can see Your smile glowing on Your Face. And every time I die You take it (my sin) all away. And looking in Your Eyes, without left to say. Every time I die, You take it all away… He shows me the things I think I already know.” – Every Time I Die
“Truly Amazing! Love for the fallen. Truly Amazing! He heals the broken hearted. Truly Amazing! Love for the fallen. Shine down Your Love! Bring down Your Love!” – Truly Amazing
Also, about smoking pot: Sonny smoked pot before he was Saved. I think if you Google the keywords “Sonny + Testimony” you should find a link to a great video of him sharing his Salvation experience. In addition, the criticism of P.O.D. seemed to be overtly attacking them. We are told in the Bible to correct one another in love, and referring to these men as “brainless,” etc. is not glorifying to God. If you haven’t already, I would suggest that you contact P.O.D. about some of your questions. They are very nice people. You need to go to them first, just as we are commanded to go to a person in private concerning problems. I have personally met them several times and I can assure you that they are indeed our fellow brothers in Christ and they love the Lord. You can feel the warmth of the Love of Christ when you get near them. Please prayerfully accept these words. Just as the Bible states, if you are wise, you will accept the counsel of others. I have considered your concerns, but in the end, I know that what I have said is the truth about P.O.D.
Thanks and God Bless,
Torrey
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Pilgrim,
Mathew 7 is one of my favorite chapters, and the Sermon on the hill is one of my favorite passages in the Bible, and I believe that in this case it does apply.
I fully agree with everything that Torrey has to say. He seems like a man who knows God, and sees him clearly. Well put. I would greatly reccomend you talking to the members from P.O.D. before posting any of these misconstrude statements that you have released about them. P.O.D. has helped me through hard times, and improved my relationship with Christ tremendusly. They are truly christians and are just trying to spread the gospel. I know you mean well dude, and are trying to help people not to be misled, but through this article I feel as if you are misleading Christians who love to worship christ through song, and rock and roll. Much Love.
Seth
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Heres an interview Sonny had with Highwire.
Highwire Daze: Introduce yourself and tell me what you do in P.O.D.
Sonny: My name is Sonny and I am the throat for P.O.D.
HD: Where is the band from and how long have you guys been together?
Sonny: We are from the South Town San Diego, California. We have been together for almost seven years now.
HD: Describe the music of P.O.D. to someone who has never heard it before.
Sonny: Our music is a colaboration of four diferent characteristics. Each one of us adds a different element to our sound. We like heavy, melodic guitars with phat soulfull grooves topped with aggressive rap vocals. Basically, whatever we write that we feel sounds good, we’re going to play. I don’t think we have too many boundaries on our music. We just play what we feel.
HD: You refer to your band as a ministry. Do you feel like a minister?
Sonny: I feel like I have something to share with whoever might listen.
HD: What are some of the subjects you tend to write about in the songs?
Sonny: We try to stay away from issues as much as possible, but sometimes if we feel really compelled to lay it down then we’ll do so. We write about our experiences as Christians. We write about the power of God in our lives. And then sometimes just about the love and goodness of God.
HD: The last song on your E.P. seems to talk about questioning ones belief in God. Is that accurate and have you ever questioned your beliefs?
Sonny: I never questioned my belief, but I questioned whether or not I have what it takes to walk in this world as a believer. It’s not easy to be one who tries to follow the examples of Christ. But the bible says that God will give me the strength to do so in a world that hates me. I wasn’t raised in the church or grew up a Christian in any way, but recognized myself and how I was living. That last song is actually a testimony of when I became a Christian. I watched my mother pass away of cancer at the age of 37 and she was a Christian the last years of her life. And her example to me as a Christian made me think about life and the world around me. It’s easy to follow the world and live life with no conviction. I had been doing that since I learned the word,” No.” But it takes power to walk and talk like Christ did. To love and serve those around me. To walk in humility. It’s not easy at all, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me!
HD: Do you feel that with being signed to Atlantic, that you’ll get the opportunity to reach more people?
Sonny: Sure enough, Atlantic Records has a history, (they are) one of the largest labels out there. So if they do their half of the deal and sell records, then people will first listen to the music and then what we have to say.
8. What do you think of the Black Metal scene that is getting popular with it’s Satanic imagery?
Sonny: I guess it depends on who’s doing it. I know a lot of it is fake and some do it for the attention. But then again there are others who really do believe, and live thier lives accordingly. But I guess you could say the same for the Christian music scene. My heart’s desire as a Christian is to love everyone and hopefully show a new light of God. Most of the world’s outlook on Christians and God today just flat out suck. The sad thing is, that example was set by those who call themselves Christians, but we as individuals hope to change that.
HD: When one thinks about certain forms of Christianity, one thinks of narrow minded, opinionated people. What are your views on people who preach the gospel for profit, who spew out hate (aka racism, homophobia)instead of love?
Sonny: It makes me sick to be honest with you. That is exactly what I was saying about examples. Most of the world claims to be Christian, but their lives don’t reflect that of Christ in any way. Seems to me like Jesus got a bum rap. All these people claim to follow him but wouldn’t even recognize him at a P.O.D. show. (ha ha)
HD: If an Athiest kid came up to you and said he really dug your music but not the message, what would you say to him?
Sonny: I would thank him for just liking our music. At least he didn’t hate us or throw away our CD because we’re Christians. It’s not our responsibility to live other peoples lives. That is a choice that God freely gives every single one of us to make. We only hope that this kid might see a difference in us.
HD: What are P.O.D.’s future plans? Any chance for L.A. dates soon?
Sonny: We fly to New York tomorrow to write music for the upcoming Oliver Stone movie, ON ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, with Al Pacino, Jamie Fox, Cameron Diaz, etc. We hope to play L.A. any chance we can. As for P.O.D., we take it one day at a time. We’re blessed to be alive and to have made it this far.
HD: If there was one thing you’d like to leave someone with after hearing P.O.D.’s music, what would it be?
Sonny: Just that God loves them. It’s your choice to accept it or not. Christ surrendered his life to prove that to us. It’s a lot easier to believe than people think. I’m just trying myself to live my life for God the best that I can and the cool thing is that all God expects from us is to just love him back. But it seems like that is too simple for man to comprehend.
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My question: Should we go to the non-believers, or wait for them to come to church? Great of P.O.D to go out to the worst places, my faith is not strong enough to do what they do as I will be consumed by the environment. When I was unsaved, church was the last place I considered.
If it wasn’t for my friend who invited me to church while I was drunk, I don’t know where I’ll be today, so thanks to my Christain friend who came to a “non-Christian” party, and saved my life.
There is no doubt in my mind that P.O.D is doing great work for the Kingdom, and reaching out to people who would not be reached in other means.
In the last couple of years P.O.D has also teached me alot about Jesus, thanks for that guys!
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I also have no doubt Sonny loves God, Its just the Rastafarian influences at one time that had me a little worried that they would be heading the wrong direction. POD keep spreading the WORD!
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Thanks for your comment George.
I have just two questions. What exactly is the “word” that POD is spreading, and does any of the stuff revealed about POD in the links on this post bother you? Anything at all?
I ask these questions seriously.
Thanks.
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POD is a pretty decent band, I would say.
There is a good chance that POD has made many people curious about christianitywho would not have otherwise been…
Isn’t that what you want? more people drawn into the church?
seems to me like they’re on your side!
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Joe;
You said: “POD is a pretty decent band, I would say.”
That is not the standard I choose to gauge “good” by. Not your standard and not mine; but by the biblical standard of what’s “good”.
You also said POD gets more people drawn to church. This looks good on the surface but that is not the point of Christianity. Christianity is to draw people to Jesus Christ! If He is lifted up, then men will be drawn unto Him. In the several POD CDs I used to own, I never found Jesus Christ to be lifted up. And all these people who are “drawn to church” because of POD, who are they?
Additionally, if you’ve spent any time on this blog (which you have) you will see that a huge majority of “churches” are lukewarm or downright apostate.
Is there anyone out there who can honestly say that they were a rotten sinner until they rocked out to POD and now they’ve been transformed and are regenerated?
Again, my two questions are serious and important: What is this “word” that POD is spreading and does anyone (specifically professing Christians) have an issue with the points presented in the links associated with this post?
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There’s no question that many feel that if they “tone it down”, then they will appeal to a larger audience.
I could see “New” christians enjoying it because it bridges the gap between what they would typically listen to and their new found faith.
I, on the other hand, don’t really like it simply because I find them too “preachy”. Hey, that should tell you something! LOL
I didn’t mean to take you post off topic. I’ll shut up now…
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Pilgrim,
How come you didn’t respond to Torrey’s message? The guy highlights the many references to Jesus and Christianity in their music. Do you not have an argument? It also appears to me that one man, Dr. Terry Watkins is spear-heading the belligerent message against P.O.D.
I believe that P.O.D. is out to spread God’s word. You can contest this but if you’ve ever checked out the songs Strength of My Life and Roots in Stereo you notice P.O.D. collaborates with Matisyahu. Matisyahu is a Hasidic Jew. Do you think a Hasidic Jew would have anything to do with a band with satanic roots (in reference to Dr. Watkin’s accusation that P.O.D. has satanic connections)? Granted, Matisyahu does not believe in Jesus, but in agreeing to sing with P.O.D. he recognized P.O.D. has a positive message. I see it as two musical acts with profound faiths in the God of Abraham.
Perhaps you guys should look into some of the other things Dr. Watkins puts out. It seems to me he is the wolf in sheep’s clothing. He’s pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes. He enjoys ripping apart many of today’s anointed and successful Christian musicians including P.O.D. but also The Newsboys, DC Talk, Michael W. Smith, and even Jars of Clay. I’d like to hear Mr. Watkins make some “good” Christian music since apparently none can be found. Lets see how many souls he saves…
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Dear Jordan,
I don’t expect to convince anyone of anything on this matter. If you have reviewed the links and saw (for example) all the occultic stuff POD has on their albums, and their use of “Jah” (that’s not the God of the Bible) and still have no problem with it, then so be it.
I must say, I found your argument to be shortsighted. Your defense for POD is that they make mention of Jesus’ name and Christianity. Uh . . . ok. So do Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Catholics. Last time I checked, the mere mention of Jesus does not make one a Christian. Remember, the wolves will be in sheep’ clothing. They’re going to talk like Christians, Jordan. They’re going to use the same words and sound just like a Christian. That’s why it is vital to look deeper than just what someone says to appease the shallow that believe whatever they’re told. If you believe stuff on a surface level only, then I must conclude that you believe what politicians always say too.
You see, I have an issue with a band who claims Christ, but then does some of the stuff as seen in the links. No, I’m not talking about the tattoos, I’m speaking on more of the serious issues.
And you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater regarding Mr. Watkins. I certainly take what he says with a grain of salt, (for example, I’m not of the KJV-only school of thought) but he makes some very startling points in his articles on the POD subject. You’d be better off dealing with the issues than attacking the messenger. (Mormons love to do that with people like Dr. Walter Martin).
I also found it disturbing how you quickly glossed over the fact that professing believers in Jesus can team up with one who denies our Lord and Savior to rock out together, then you spin it to say “Do you think a Hasidic Jew would have anything to do with a band with satanic roots . . .” Very clever spin to avoid the deeper issue that they teamed up with a man who publicly rejects our Lord and Savior and the sacrifice He made to redeem mankind. The Bible says those who deny the Son have the spirit of anti-Christ (Those are not my words Jordan).
The world and the church (that looks just like the world) keep lowering their view of our holy and righteous God, and their view of the seriousness of their sin has also lowered as well. A little leaven has long ago crept in and the whole lump has certainly been ruined.
Michale W. Smith has admitted on Larry King that during the height of his career he was addicted to hardcore drugs. Amy Grant has taken a nosedive. And the list goes on and on. I am not expecting perfection, but there’s a whole lot more that goes on behind the scenes of CCM than most listeners know about. Many people throw the word “anointed” around like it’s going out of style, without ever examining whether or not that person or their message really is “anointed.” (Been in those churches too).
When I got saved I got rid of my secular music. When I really got saved I got rid of my “Christian” music. (Most of you reading that will be scratching your heads right now. Some of you know exactly what I’m talking about). Our worship of, love for, and reverence for God and all things holy will only rise as high as our view of Him. Many of us have made God in our image; a God who has no resemblance to the God revealed to us in the Scriptures.
I really have no desire to go toe to toe with you, arguing about the merits of POD. I have offered the links for those who want to check it out themselves and to form their own opinion. I used to listen to POD. I used to be caught up in the whole Christian Rock scene. I’ve been where you (and others posting on here) are.
I leave you with one request–no, I plead with you! Please listen to this sermon: http://defendingcontending.com/2007/10/01/paul-washer-shocking-sermon/. You can watch the sermon here: http://defendingcontending.com/2007/08/30/paul-washers-shocking-sermon-shocking-only-because-its-so-rare-to-hear-in-america/ It was a message delivered to 5,000 youth at a youth convention in 2002. It is the most downloaded sermon on the internet and it will help you better understand where I, and many others like me, are coming from. I warn you though, this sermon will not leave you unchanged. One of two things will happen:
1). The Holy Spirit will convict you and you will begin to experience a radical change in your life.
2). Your heart will become that much more hardened to the truth.
I will be more than happy to discuss what you heard in that sermon if you so desire.
Respectfully,
– The Pilgrim
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If mentioning biblical or Christian terminology makes music “Christian”,check out these gospel classics:
Stairway to Heaven-Led Zepplin
Highway to hell-AC/DC
Hells Bells-AC/DC
Running with the devil-Van Halen
Creeping Death-Metallica
Best of both Worlds-Van Halen
Every song by “Judas” Priest
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Pilgrim,
I am unclear how I am to discern who is a true believer. I was under the impression that what people say and what they do were the only things that could help me to make this determination. The testimony of Torrey convicts me that POD are indeed truly believers. I understand the dangers of wolves in sheeps clothing, but I do not know how I am supposed to see the wolf if he is indeed there. If you threw out your “Christian” music, are there any artists that you believe to be true believers? I guess that question could apply to secular artists as well. For example, having researched the life and writings of Bono extensively, I would have to conclude that he is indeed a true believer. In the christian scene I have always been struck by the words and actions of Rich Mullins. Just a few thoughts…
In Him
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Does anyone remember in the New Testament where it talks about eating meat. If you feel eating meat is wrong than do not do it, if not than go ahead and eat it, but be careful not to do it if a brother who is convicted by it, sees you eat it, and then eats, even though he believes it is wrong. I think that is where this arguing about Christian/Secular music has been for a long time. I don’t believe there are different levels of Christianity by any means, but the Scriptures make it very clear that the Holy Spirit will convict each of us independently. Music is a very powerful ministry tool. There are many who love nothing more than to listen to praise and worship 24/7, but there are many others who would hang themselves from a rope after 5 min. of praise music. Pilgrim, I believe that God has given you a very strong conviction about how you feed your soul with music. I really respect that. I don’t have the same convictions you do, I like to do research on an artist, whether in the cd liner or just to Google them, find out what they believe in, before I commit to listen. I also have a friend who has an obvious annointing upon his life. He is a pastor who owns his own tattoo and piercing shop, rides a Harley type bike, and holds his church services in a bar. Some of the places he ministers, I could not even go into. God has given him a wonderful ministry, an ability to reach people most of us would not even talk to. Jesus certainly would talk to them. Long story short Pilgrim, you have a God given ministry to search out the truth in music/musicians and present the facts to those who would desire it. You must then be willing to step back and let the Holy Spirit convict those whom he would, to let each person search out their own heart and make a decision as to what God would have them digest. It is not my desire to preach at any of you, this is my two cents. God has given us the map(Bible) and a guide(Holy Spirit), let’s use them. Rock On!!!
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I just received the following comment by “Ben” on this same post over at Reformation Nation. I’ve posted it below for your review.
I must admit, I was relieved that a POD supporter finally addressed the issue of POD’s use of occult symbols. But then I read Ben’s defense.
1). Well the “Christian” band Demon Hunter uses occult symbols too. 2). I just need to get past the symbols.
Wow!
Here is his compete comment:
uhh…. i just came across this, but when “pilgrim” said the use of occultic symbols… have you heard of Demon hunter. Great Christian band. Christian melodic death metal/ metalcore. Their symbolis a demon skull with a bullet hole in its head. They say quote, “Absolutely, we are Bible believing folowers of Christ. Listen to PODs music. You need to get pass the symbols. secondly, is it your job to judge weather POD is Christian. We will all know at the end of days. It is Jesus’ job to decide weather someone has done his will. Why do you care?
Oh, and did you notice the tired, worn-out, misuse of Matthew 7:1 that Ben used? No matter how much you write on the subject of defending truth, contending for the faith, and dealing with the wolves among the flock, (all mandates from the Scriptures), I will never get through to those who have one foot in the church and the other in the world and want to keep it that way.
Tired of the rampant Biblical ignorance and utter contempt for all things holy,
– The Pilgrim
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The following quote by Y.C. was left on the identical post at Reformation Nation. As a courtesy I have copied and pasted it below.
Well, I have actaully had the same idea you had…
People we need to realize that, when we are praising our Lord God, it must be pure, when something is shady we should just leave it behind. We cannot judge, which is true, but we also MUST have discernment. Honestly if we take the rock band P.O.D, first of all they sing to Jah, if we look up what Jah means we see that, that is in reference to the Emperor of Ethiopea, a man, who they said was ‘God in reincarnate’, right there was enough to know that P.O.D was not right for me. Everyone has say to what they believe but scripture tell us that we cannot be lukewarm for the Lord will spit you out. If we take P.O.D as a worldly band then I might feel somewhat different, but then again I won’t, why you might ask? Well because if someone is not praising Our Lord Our God, then why should we care to listen to them?? Lets be frank society is bringing God to fit our lifestyles, and so on, but we should be coming to God’s level. If you ever have doubt on anything you should research it without being bias but having an open mind. Personally, I researched this group P.O.D and found that it does not help my spirit so I let it go. We must have discernment, because we must keep in mind that the Devil masquerades as a Christian. But when its too late his mask will come off and out comes the monster.
Christians, before throwing at another Christian… research, research, research, not only the band but what the Bible tells us. Is it worth losing focus, and arguing with your brother over a $11.99 CD? I clearly dont think so, so dont be silly look into it.
P.O.D doesnt reflect God. No I am not judging, and I never will. If anything its holding accountability. P.O.D if we look them up say they do not want to be a CHRISTIAN band. If this is not enough, then wait until the devil comes out.
Look up what Rastafari is, and check and see how much they have in common. And just incase Rastafari isnt Christian. for the follow a man… And its not just Jesus.
People dont jump to conclusions, read and becom knowledgeable…
Y.C
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Here is a link to an article exposeing how P.O.D. Is demonic and they all need to repent (stop sinning: like drinking,lying stealing, lusting, ect.) and call on the name of the Lord Jesus to get Born again and be saved from hell. Here is the link http://www.av1611.org/crock/pod_dark.html .
P.O.D. Use filthy language, drink, and promote stanic bands and partying. Which shows that they are NOT christians. The bible says if you profess godliness and cannot control your tongue that your religion is vain. We all judge every day in fact the bible commands us to judge righteously, and he that is spiritual judgeth all things and the seventh book of the bible is called Judges. The thing is don’t judge unrighteously, don’t be a hypocrite, like saying don’t do a particular sin to someone and then you practice that sin. But first take the beam out of thine own eye and then you shall see clearly to take the mote out of thy brothers eye. So in a nutshell ditch P.O.D. its demonic rebelious music! God bless
Please exuse the type o’s. I meant to type ( exposing ) and (P.O.D. promote satanic bands)
Thanks
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Wow, I wish I had found some of this information months ago before I spent two whole months looking into the CCM issue. I researched this for Winter Jam 2008. I fear that we will lose all our youth to the CCM music. They are addicted to the music and converted to the CCM instead of to Christ. Youth won’t come for a serious Bible study yet they will show up in droves for CCM music concerts.
Here is some of the info on P.O.D. that I included in my PowerPoint which, regretfully, went over like a dead weight with my church leaders. I didn’t see some of this on your post. If this is too long, please feel free to delete the comment. Thank you though for taking a stand.
“Of course we drink beer and we party. You don’t believe how often we get that question. People seem to have the misconception that we spend all our time on our knees praying, but I can assure you, we don’t. If there’s a party, we party!” Traa, P.O.D. (Circus, July 2002, p. 22)
P.O.D. encourages rebellion:
P.O.D. – In the song Condescending
“Your patronizing,
Your overbearing,
And you’re so unbending.
Who won’t do it your way,
I won’t do what you say.
I can’t do it your way.
I won’t do what you say.
You don’t understand me.
I won’t do it your way.”
Occult symbols
“Families may be put off by gothic album art featuring a detached arm, a skull, cabalistic symbols and a barely covered female with butterfly wings.” Plugged In Online
P.O.D. – When Angels & Serpents Dance
“Rhythmically moving,
Emotions are rising.
Quivering to music,
Trembling bodies in song.
Go unsteadily sliding, devious gliding.
So beautifully sailing and floating on.
Life’s real,
When Angels & Serpents Dance.”
See the Picture of When Angels and Serpents Dance album cover.
Rastafarianism
“Spiritually, the band is as concerned as ever with Jah, inner strength, and the “blood of God’s veins,…””
Joyful Noisemakers, Spin, October 2001, p. 88
This is Rastafarian not Christian!
The wearing of dreadlocks (and the term Jah) is very closely associated with the movement.
Wikipedia – Rastafarian
Christians need to wake up to the problem of most of the CCM.
Berean Wife
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I received the following comment on this same post (over at RN) from Justin. I have copied and pasted it in its entirety:
This might be kind of wierd… but god used a P.O.D. song to answer one of my prayers. They say god works in mysterious ways.
I was crying out to god… (literally) and asking for answers… and i heard a P.O.D. melody pop into my head. I went on the internet looked up the lyrics for the melody i heard. And it was a direct and complete answer to my prayer. It explained all the problems i was having with my gf and with my father.
This doesnt make P.O.D. a christian band… but i know for a fact god used one of there songs to speak to me.
My question is… if P.O.D. used satanic symbols and everything why would god use a song by them to answer my prayers. I dont think this is really a bad thing, it changed my life.
What are your thoughts on this?
You may also want to check out the Desert Pastor’s new post on “Chirstian Music” here.
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Dear Justin:
My question to you is, how do you know that what happened to you actually came from God? God can use anything at anytime that He wants to, I agree! I won’t argue that. If He can make a donkey speak, I will never hold back on what He can do (unless it is sin/violates His Word).
However, I beg the question, what is more in line with God’s revealed nature: to use a rock band who is obviously in rebellion and dabbling in occult material to help you with your girlfriend problems, or to direct you to His written Word?
What I find so disturbing about defenders of POD is when the information (found in this post) is made known to them, they flat out ignore it in favor of their feelings, emotions, and preferences.
What I find even more disturbing is in their defense of POD they quite often say, “POD helped me with _________ (fill in the blank).”
Where is God? What role does He and His Word have in their life? It’s usually either absent or playing second fiddle to a POD song.
– The Pilgrim
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Hello all,
So, I just came across this today, and I have to say… it’s quite interesting!
Okay, here’s my life in the nutshell:
I’m an African American female who is classically trained in music (violist), I’ve been saved since I was three, parents worked in the FLA school system as drama teachers that went from school to school, performing a play entitled “The Shining City”, basically my parents objectives were to bring Christianity back into the school system, and they did. At the height of God using them, my father got kidney failure and later died (totally NOT God’s fault b/c he doesn’t do that stuff. John 10:10 peeps! lol). My siblings and my mother’s faith NEVER wavered. Now, I am happily married to a white man that God told me to leave FLA for and travel to MI to be with and we have a son and plan on adopting some Asian babies. I have tattoos that I got after I went on a missions trip with my church to Panama (trip was in 2000, tatts got in 2002 on my 18th). I basically cemented my faith then.
Okay, now my husband and I talk about this all the time. He likes music like Steven Curtis Chapman (continue to pray with him please- and his son as well), Micheal W Smith (I love the man too, actually) and so on. I love Classic Crime, Anberlin, POD, etc. I love praise and worship music when I’m in church, and when I am doing my daily bible study, seeking God, doing my personal praise sessions, etc. But I DON’T like listening to that ilk when I’m on my day to day because I’ve always been a rocker and I don’t see that changing.
My issue with this: I’ve been saved all my life. I GREW UP on Dc talk, Audio A, and all the greats of the 90’s. I have a tattoo and am led to help people like myself, who don’t particularly fit into any mold- I mean, I’m in an interracial marriage, the most rap that I listen to is POD, and I plan on getting more tatts. Does that make me a bad person or someone that doesn’t seek God because I don’t fit into any of the molds that we as humans seem to need? I like POD because they don’t fit into any category. And, it pains me to say, but I feel we as Christians need to reclaim the word Christian because it’s putting some people off! This might not be your intention, but I already know that if you and I, Pilgrim were in the same room, we’d probably assume some crazy stuff about each other. I’d think you were probably uptight and judgemental (AND please hear me out, I’d be dead wrong, right? I don’t know you from Adam, but we humans sure like to assume), and who knows if you’d even look at me twice?
I thoroughly research the music I listen to (hence why I’m on here right now- didn’t like a lyric or two in my Classic Crime MP3), and like last night, I pray and seek guidance from GOD because I don’t want to get into sin just because I choose to be ignorant.
If I was told when I reaffirmed my faith before I went to Panama (with Teen Mania BTW), that after I checked my spirit and listened to God about what I was listening to, got the okay, and then had to listen to music that was “acceptable” by other Christians- even if God said that what I was listening to was fine, I’d be put off. I like a certain type of music. Though I love all the above mentioned CC Musicans, they don’t speak to me in a way that appeals to me, or interests me. I mean… does that mean I’m not hearing God and that I’m sinning… again? This stresses me out a bit because I like this music and have tried listening to other types thinking that I’m sinning by listening to Christian artists (emphasize here on ARTIST) that don’t say “Jesus. Jesus” every fifteen seconds, that are human too and may not REALIZE that what they’re doing is wrong, because, GOD met them where they were at, and it’s up to HIM to tell them what they’re doing is wrong, especially in the case of genre crossing musicians that DIDN’T grow up in the church, so they don’t know everything yet, BUT GOD SEES THEIR HEARTS AND HE CORRECTS THEM, either using fellow Christians like ourselves, or directly.
I’ve been in the church all my life, am on FIRE for God, go to church three times a week, seek God in everything I do… and I have tattoos, and I listen to Christian Rock/Emo/Hardcore music… feel called to adopt children from Asia (one of the toughest things to do when you’re an A America), I minister to people who just don’t fit the mold… like me. Just because I don’t fit into any category that our brothers and sisters have made, does that mean that I’m not a Christian, that I’m a wolf in sheep’s clothing? I mean come on! Jesus was not conventional and he was very brass tactics. The Pharisees and Sadducee’s (sp?)couldn’t stand him because he refused to fit in a mold that they had for him! He came and did a new thing and now He’s using us Christians in a way that is all together new and it’s reaching the type of people that society has thrown away.
God doesn’t call the equipped, he equips the called!
I mean, I’m not perfect, you’re not perfect, but God loves us nonetheless. God loves all the wolves in sheep’s clothing, the hypocrites,the SATANISTS, the drunks, backsliders, the “holier than thous”, EVERYBODY.
So, POD seems to appear non-Christian to you, even though they could have thrown away the faith they proclaimed to have when they were less popular. Like Evanescence. Instead, they continue to proclaim Jesus Christ in their lyrics. Terroy has supplied you with more than enough lyrics lol, so I don’t have to sight them.
I mean, do we need them to strip away everything they are and become cookie cutter Christians in order for people to say ” Now… now,I believe them.”
Where’s the love? The understanding? How about we ask POD straight out (and many have and have gotten the answers!) and see what they say? We all know that being a Christian in this world is NOT THE EASY ROUTE. Why would they continue to follow Jesus when it seems easier in the short terms to follow Satan?
How about, we PRAY FOR THEM, instead of condemning them? I mean, if we pray, then the situation will be resolved one way or the other. If they truly are wolves in sheep’s clothing, then we should pray that it get revealed so that our youth are not deceived! We have dominion over Satan, and we should use it! 1John 4:4,Luke 10:19- read it. We can be pro-active instead of letting everyone “check their own heart” we need to go after Satan and knock down this strong hold! If it’s true about these guys then we need to take Satan to task and prevent this from continuing!
But, I don’t think it’s the case.
Do I dare say that POD and others of their kind talk and make music about things that today’s Christian youth and Young Adults are dealing with? That I’m dealing with? And some don’t understand that not every one’s called to be in Christian music, that some are called to be outside of the church, working to bring souls to Christ that some people INSIDE the church can’t be bothered with?
I do believe that POD is doing their best with what they have. These guys weren’t brought up in the church, they don’t know “Christianese” like some of us do. I’m not going to assume they have evil intent because they may be ignorant.
You know, sometimes people just don’t know, and they need to be corrected before they’re condemned. How else are they going to learn?
And also, some people don’t read their Bible like they’re supposed to (let’s be real), and sometimes God can only reach them in a Steven Curtis Chapman song, or a Micheal W Smith song, or a DcT song, Audio A, Nicole C Mullen, Nicole Nordman, Classic Crime, Anberlin, Jars of Clay, Third Day, old Amy Grant, and yes, a POD song.
There’s my very winded .02.
Have a blessed day and God Bless,
Rebekah
P>S- God made music… he made hardcore, rap, gospel, heavy metal, classical, etc. It was Satan that corrupted it (Thought I should put in that little nugget).
P.S.S- Maybe, just, maybe, traditional Gospel music isn’t every one’s… taste?
Please name me some Rock music bands that are like POD that are doing it right so that I may pick up their album and continue to rock out the way God intended me to.
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Saying that hardcore, rap, heavy metal, etc., is edifying for Christians because God made music is like saying that pornography is edifying for Christians because God made sex. You can have Christian hardcore metal about as well as you can have Christian pornography.
“Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,” II Corinthians 6:17
“Abstain from all appearance of evil.” I Thessalonians 5:22
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” I John 2:15
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You know, I often hear people say what God likes and accepts (like quote #15 in this post for example). Yet they rarely ever have Scriptural support for their claims and they usually never crack open a Bible to find out what God actually says God finds acceptable.
This selfish, run-my-life-my-way, I’m-not-going-to-die-to-self, attitude is most prevalent in the life styles and choices these professing Christians make (even the music they choose to set before their ears and eyes).
But does anyone remember Cain? Didn’t he offer God what he thought was acceptable? And what happened to his offering and ultimately him?
Take heed! Put yourself, your emotions, your preferences, your desires, and your flesh aside and find out what God’s standards are lest you be like Cain. It’s all in the pages of your Bible.
– The Pilgrim
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I received the following comment from Leyla on my other blog where this post was originally published. She gives an eye-opening account of her recent visit to a POD concert. Thank you for your comment Leyla.
Hello Pilgrim, God Bless you! Listen, back in June I went to a Concert at the LA Convention Center with my Disciples. They told me that POD was a Christian band and that they were going to be performing at the “Somebody loves you” Crusade in LA. So we arrived at the Convention center and 10 minutes after our arrival, the music began and the band that opened the concert opened the altar for the youth to come to the front. My disciples and I ran to the front and stood in the front row. 70% of the youth there were wearing POD paraphernalia, so the first thing that I thought was “Wow, these people are big time”. The crowd wasn’t really jumping or going crazy for the music, another band came after the first and there was more movement on the crowd’s behalf, but still wasn’t causing a movement. At that point, I felt in my spirit that something wasn’t right. I didn’t feel like the place that I was at was truly a concert where God was being exhalted. Something just told me that something wasn’t right. Little did I know that I was about to find out. Once POD came out, the crowd that was up front became a human storm. The crowd was pushing, people were pushed on the floor, and the crowd was completely out of control and no one cared. I struggled to pull up a girl standing to my left from falling to the ground while at the same time trying to remain firm and not suffocate from all the bodies pushed against mine. The ushers that were up front grabbed by eachother’s forearms were about to be thrown to the floor. My life and the life of the youngsters that went to the concert were in danger at that point so I decided to get out of that crowd. My disciple told the usher that we wanted out and we got through. Once we were at the back of the crowd, by the big screens, I looked at the screen and noticed something interesting. The lead singer had something hanging from his neck: a rosary. I then noticed that on his arm, there was a bracelet that had different saints all around his wrist. I took pictures immediately. The Lord tells me in His Word that there should be no other gods before Him. Why is this man wearing rosaries and bracelets with idols? A rosary is a catholic custom in which someone other than God is being prayed to. This is called idolatry and God goes against it. Once we walked out of the concert hall, there was a gentleman who walked about 3 yards in front of us and after leaving this concert, he left saying “Don’t believe in God, believe in yourself. God is only fiction” At that moment I asked myself “When did the Bible ever say that the demons followed Jesus?” The demons never followed Jesus. Thus, the demons that were in the people at that concert were not following spirit filled Christians, the demons that were in those people were following the demons that were in those people that were on stage. The thing is that many people who say that they’re Christians, yet live a totally different life, put on a good enough act so that others who don’t know God all that well or aren’t strong in the Lord will believe that they’re the real thing. POD’s “band info” section on their website doesn’t mention “Jesus”, “believer” or “Salvation” one time. Their latest album is called “when Angels and Serpents dance.” Didn’t Christ tell me that he’s given me authority to step on serpants and scorpions? POD is a band that acts Christian where they need to act Christian and acts Worldly everywhere else. To me, that is lukewarm, and Revelation says that if you are lukewarm, he will spit you out. I don’t want to be God’s vomit, I want to be good fruit before him. POD are false prophets, a worldly band and a wolf disguised as a sheep. This goes to show us that the end days are truly near and that Christ is coming for his people. Don’t be caught at a POD concert.
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What gives you the right to say if they are or are not a Christian band? You are not God therefore you cannot judge others. Yet you do. Christianity has been getting a bad rap because of all the issues it has and the history behind it. Included is the prim and proper look, high opinionated, and accusative attitudes. P.O.D is just trying to show what Christianity is and that ‘He’ accepts everyone.
It shouldn’t matter what others look like or how the act. What should matter is that you accept them for who they are. As a person. Even if they don’t believe in the same thing as you.
To each their own.
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Geist:
Thank you for your comment.
However, I almost felt as if you were judging me . . .
:o(
Anyway, could you be so kind as to please provide chapter and verse (from the Bible and in its proper context of course) to support the following assertions you made in your comment:
1). ‘He’ accepts everyone
2). It shouldn’t matter what others look like or how the[y] act.
3). What should matter is that you accept them for who they are. As a person. Even if they don’t believe in the same thing as you.
4). To each their own.
Thank you.
– The Pilgrim
P.S. Did you review the links provided in the post before you left your comment?
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I’m still unsure of what P.O.D’s beliefs truly are; honestly because I haven’t met them personally and at this point I don’t have any hardcore convictions (possibly because I don’t have enough facts yet; I will keep researching). I do believe good has come from their music, though. I also believe there are some issues that posts have brought up that haven’t been addressed yet. Such as the lyrics posted by Torrey and the testimony/post by Rebekah. I personally commend POD because think about it, in what way does the band prosper from saying the things about God in their lyrics that they do? Or the interviews, they testify (which is one of their album titles, I know, nice cite, right?) that they believe and have relationships with the living God. They work in a industry where most bands leave out there being any possiblity of a god. And lets all agree in the fact that the christian cookie-cutter music industry is a struggling enterprise, (or maybe yall don’t agree). But in my mind POD seems to fill a void left in Christian media outlets. From my knowledge I would say that the band has Godly and pure intents. And you have to agree that POD reaches a group of people in this generation (my generation, I’m not sure how old yall are but some of you seem pretty old) that would not enjoy listening to Steven Curtis Chapman (bless his heart) and even Audio Adrenaline. For me, I am a God pursuing, spirit-filled church intern/ high school small group co-leader, and I LOVE LOVE worship music like Hillsong United and Desperation Band but I do not enjoy listening to some of the aforementioned christian pop bands. However, I do love christian rock bands though such as Stavesacre and Future of Forestry. I say this to say that I can relate to a generation of young people that don’t want to mold their lives to a stereotypical Christian life where they have to have everything figured out and there is no fun and they have to listen to contemporary christian mainstream pop. I’m not saying they don’t have standards to live by (namely the Holy Spirit and God’s Word) and I do believe there are a lot of people that take a too liberal view of what being a Christian means; christianity is definitely not cost-less. I think there is a balance though. I believe we as Christians (not being perfect because we’re not) can take on anything that the world has tried to take away from God (such as all forms of media) and take them back for God. But in the process I don’t think that we have to make them less enjoyable or excellent. I believe that the Christian music industry has some groups (and maybe some of you disagree and you may be right, I’m not extremely musically knowledgable) that are less talented than mainstream groups. They seem to take on the title “Christian” in order to make it in a market where they can compete with the crowd. This is one thing I absolutely love about POD, they are making it as a popular mainstream rock band and they still proclaim their love for Christ. A lot of “christian” groups that make the jump from “christian” to mainstream seem to leave Christ behind also. We can’t take this fact away from POD. I have some other stuff that I’d love to address and hopefully I will at a later time but my roomate just came in and competely interupted my train of thought; I need to study for a final anyways. Thanks for letting me input!
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Dear Steven:
As another defender of POD, I again have to ask, did you check out the links in the original post? If so, did all that information sit well with you?
How about the quote from Rolling Stone, Dec. 14-21, 2000, on page 102
RS: You were recently criticized by Christian radio talk-show host Dr. Dobson for forsaking your religious beliefs by touring with Ozzfest and Korn.
WUV: We respect the man, but he never had a conversation with us. Just because P.O.D. are a spiritual band doesn’t mean we adhere to any one religion, and all kinds of people want to use us as a symbol for their thing. There’s a thousand different definitions of what a Christian is, but we don’t feel like there are any lines.
Does that concern you at all? Any bit?
I’m not as old or as young as you might think. I used to listen to POD and all the “Christian” rock bands. I can say from my experience I didn’t put away that music because I was trying to appeal to a cookie-cutter type of Christianity. I put all that stuff away when I quit playing church, got serious about reading my Bible and following God, and God transformed me from within.
I urge you to please check out this sermon and carefully listen to it so you can better understand what I am talking about. Please take the time to listen to it (you can download it to your MP3 player) and then get back with me.
Thanks
Sincerely,
– The Pilgrim
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Howdy Pilgrim,
I believe I talked to you back in October. I asked you about some Jehovah’s Witness literature. Specifically, Reasoning from the Scriptures, Studies in the Scriptures and Millions Now Living Will Never Die. You asked me to continue this conversation with you on this blog site. I’m sure you’re probably wondering why I chose to post this comment in response to your P.O.D. post. Check out this post on my blog…
http://1crazycalvinist.wordpress.com/2008/10/20/the-desolate-landscape-of-%e2%80%9cchristian%e2%80%9d-music/
…and let me know which category you think P.O.D. belongs in. Talk at ya later.
In Christ,
Billy
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Stephen,
As a teenager at the time, I got to be in the delivery room to see the birth of P.O.D. As were many my age, I was excited to see the energy and enthusiasm that surrounded their music and that seemed to surge through their fan base. They had, and probably still have a ministry set up to counsel young people at their concerts. They don’t cuss in their music, and from time to time they mention God.
On the surface, all these things seem really nice. However, young people need to come to the realization that there are those out there that have allowed themselves to be deceived and are thus deceiving others. Just because someone names God does not make them godly. Christ must be living in them.
Christianity is a very exclusive religion. Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” We are not to make excuses for God and why He chooses to grant us only one way to salvation. Nor are we to straight out lie and say that there are many ways to Him, when we know that the Bible says the opposite.
Sadly, this is what many “professing” Christian bands teach backstage, on stage, on their websites, in their lyrics and in interviews. These bands have influence which makes them teachers. In his epistle, James says that teachers will incur a stricter judgment. Thus, when we exercise a stricter form of judgment when determining whether or not to support these people, we do them a favor.
As far as your comment that they have nothing to gain from mentioning God in their music, I would beg to differ. The “Christian” Music industry is one of the most profitable industries in the world, today. You slap the label “Christian” on something, and people eat it up like hot cakes. That is, unless it teaches actual Christianity, which the world finds to be an offense and always will.
What P.O.D. has going for them is that they are a “Christian” cross-over band. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been talking to non-christians and mentioned P.O.D., Anberlin, Switchfoot, Flyleaf and others, just to get the response, “I didn’t know they were Christian!” They sell to the secular market as well as the Christian market, and their message is not even gospel saturated enough for people to notice.
This is compounded by the fact that, when they do interviews you can see that they have visible “Christ fatigue”. Meaning that they are tired of being asked about their faith. I just want to slap some sense into some of these guys. It’s as if they are saying, “You know, I know I got here by mentioning Christ in my lyrics (or Jah in the case of P.O.D.), but I don’t love Him enough to proclaim Him in this interview.” Certainly, they have found that the message of Christ is an offense to those to whom they want to sell records, and thus He must be ditched. This is sad.
My prognosis: P.O.D. never knew Christ to begin with. Thus, they are not only deceiving people into believing that they are Christian when they are not, but they are dangerous. When you have non-christians pretending to be Christians, they have the ability to do much damage. We should pray for these men, for they will have to answer for every word, thought and deed on judgment day. And because of the position that they have assumed, they will incur a stricter judgment. Just my opinion.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Dear Billy:
I’m not quite sure which category POD would fall under based on your post. However, I did find the following sentence from your post very interesting:
“It should not be harder to find a good Christian artist to listen to than it is to find a good Christian pastor to follow.”
Sadly not only is it hard to find a good Christian artist to listen to, it’s also very hard to find a good Christian pastor to sit under. We are truly in a famine.
I am ever so grateful for the internet where one can seek out sound biblical teachers no matter how far away they are.
– The Pilgrim
P.S. I still don’t understand what the JW stuff had to do with this post.
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Pilgrim,
The JW stuff really had more to do with re-introducing myself to you than a reverting back to that subject. If you would like to continue that conversation, just let me know which post you would prefer me to comment under. However, this is a topic that I do find to be a very pressing one in the world of evangelical Christianity, and thus, I responded to it.
As far as finding good pastors, my point was that you can go to pretty much any church website and tell (based on their statement of faith; if they have one) what kind of pastor you are dealing with. Christian artists do not provide this. They prefer instead to reside in clouds of obscurity. If they do say anything about faith, it is usually something to do with whatever the new socio-political issue happens to be at the time.
Honestly, I’m beginning to get fed up with it. I almost want to just erase everything but the hymns and worship songs off of my iTunes and be done with it. Perhaps that’s the issue. Perhaps our lusts for worldly beats and melodies has driven us to drop our guard and care less about discernment altogether. I’ll keep praying about it. I’ll keep you updated.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Farfignoggin:
I tried to find the original JW post you were commenting on but couldn’t. If you want to discuss JW stuff I recommend we do that on a JW post (my most recent one is here).
You have to be very careful with “statements of faith.” Just because someone has a doctrinally sound statement of faith means very little. I’ve seen time and time again a church with a great statement of faith but as soon as the pastor opens his mouth he betrays all that’s in that statement of faith.
It’s kind of like those who claim to be Christians until you spend five minutes with them and realize they know all the right words but it’s not real to them.
And I too have stopped listening to about 95% of what I used to listen to. Now I just need to get around to deleting gigs of “Christian” music off my hard drive.
I once read a comment on another blog that I thought was profound. It went something like this:
When I got saved I threw out all my secular music. When I really got saved I threw out all my Christian music.
Very poignant.
– The Pilgrim
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Farfignoggin,
I understand your comment about the CCM artist websites. When I was doing my research on CCM, none of the websites had a clear presentation of the gospel. Nor did any of them state clearly, what they believed. I think this is intentional so as to not offend potential customers.
However, I agree with The Pilgrim that doctrinal statements of faith really are of no help. We have been visiting churches for over two months now. We try to know as much as possible before visiting by reading websites and even emailing the church at times. What is on the “statement of Faith” means nothing in many cases. We would like to also see a “What we do not believe statement.” Nevertheless, nothing is as good as actually being there, seeing for yourself and talking to the staff and members.
This quote can apply to many areas of our lives:
When I got saved I threw out all my secular music. When I really got saved I threw out all my Christian music.
Berean Wife
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I hope you all would defend Jesus the same way you do with these groups and music. Now would be a good time to discern who is your god. In everything we do we are to bring glory to God. I wonder what is their fascination with dark things. Does this fascination line up with God’s Word. Phillipians ;3-8,9 I was a druggie a drunk and lots of other things. When I first became a Christian I was scornful of other so good Christians, who I thought didn’t know anything about real life. As I have moved on I have changed a lot how I feel. I was so prideful, to think I was better, I could reach a different sort of people. Sometimes I can. I have also found the Lord using me to witness to people who I formerly looked down on. Nobody comes to Jesus unless the Holy Spirit draws them, not the music. The gospel is the power of God to salvation. I was saved because the Holy Spirit drew me, I was not looking for Him. We are all anointed, and when we are walking in His will He will use us where He wants to, not where we think we fit in better. I don’t listen to Christian music anymore. I gave that up ages ago. The worse thing is when christians try to imitate the world. We are not of the world. We formerly walked in darkness, but now we are in the light. Our manner certainly affects the way we live our faith. It is prideful to say this is how I am, and I’ve always been like this. We rather would say. Jesus I give up my rights, my likes and dislikes, Use me for Your glory,whether it be martydom, being hated and despised. Just because they sing christian stuff means nothing. Satan quoted scripture tempting Jesus in the wilderness. wAtch for the fruits. Discernment is dead in the church. We don’t wait for God to show us when we ask Him. We go to His Word, which will lead us into all truth. I ask myself now, is this going to help me to get closer to Jesus. DO I need this in my life. If we only want our flesh satisfied, that’s easily done. Narrow is the gate, difficult is the way that leads to life, and there are FEW who find it Mathew 7: 13, 14.
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Jude,
Loved your post. You are right on so many levels. The only thing that I would encourage you to do is to remember that the Holy Spirit convicts people of different sins at different times. While I might wish that people were convinced of the things that I’m convinced of, I am ever reminded that there was always a time that I had not yet been convinced (or convicted) of it. Was I not saved yet? No. I was saved. I just had not been made aware of that particular sin area in my life. You are correct, however, in pointing out that we need to be diligent in searching the scriptures in order to find new areas of sin in our lives, that we might mortify it and grow in holiness. Pray for me. Laters.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Thanks Billy, I agree. I have found a lot in my life the Holy Spirit has used other people to convict me. The most challenging one around 2 years ago was Paul Washer in Shocking sermon That is when My Christianity became real, and when I stopped listening to Christian music. I didn’t hear anything like that in church, I could’ve stayed how I was, or repented, so I started my search for the truth, resulting in leaving the church I was in at the time. I am still learning. The Holy Spirit will convict, we make the choice what we will do about it.
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Jude,
Amen. Brother Paul Washer is a true man of the Lord. I have benefited much from his teaching. You might be interested to find out, however, that even he believes that there is a place for secular “sounding” Christian music. The emphasis, however, must be on the fact that it is “Christian”, which suggests that it is gospel saturated.
How do I know this? If you go to youtube.com or sermonaudio.com and type in “paul-washer reformed-rappers” you will find a sermon that he preached to a large gathering of Christian rappers in which he tells them, “I thought I’d come here tonight and hear hip-hop. What I heard was preaching.” Coming from Brother Paul Washer, that’s saying quite a lot, don’t you think?
Now, I’m not sure who all was at that engagement, but I’m assuming that he was speaking to rappers within the sphere of enfluence of men like Lecrae, Trip Lee, Tedashii, Sho Baraka, The Ambassador, Flame and Shai Linne. These guys are very heavy on the doctrines of grace, and they use the informal, poetic stylings of rap to convey a message that is gospel saturated and theology packed. However, if Christian music is a stumbling block for you… one that serves as a distraction rather than an encouragement, I would suggest that you continue on your current path and not look into these guys.
Just remember. Worship is essential. We should be singing hymns and worship to our Lord. In your efforts to cleanse yourself of an ungodly consumption of the one, don’t deprive yourself of the eternal benefits of the other. Just a suggestion.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Pilgrim and Berean Wife,
First off, I’d like to say that I love both of those names. Anyway, I just wanted to let you guys know that what you have said in the past few posts is spot on. Thank you for adding that disclaimer about statements of faith. It is well noted that statements of faith are not the “end all / be all” to determing whether or not a church is doctrinally sound. 9 Marks ministries has a good website for determining further what makes a good church and how to find one in your area.
As far as your current struggle is concerned, Berean Wife, I can totally relate. I’m on deployment, right now, to the Middle East. Through listening to my church’s podcast, and reflecting on things that I remember being taught in my Sunday School, I have determined that my wife and I need to find a new church. This is difficult for her, because they have been really nice to us, throwing us a baby shower, mowing our lawn in my absence and even bringing us meals after the baby was born. They truly are nice people. They’re just not doctrinally sound.
I’ve already got a church picked out that I want to go to. They are tied in very closely with Way of the Master / Wretched Radio and Masters Seminary (John MacArthur’s Seminary). Also, I’ve been listening to their podcasts and e-mailing the pastors back and forth. If I may make a request, please be praying for my wife and I. It will be very difficult to leave our current church, especially for her.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Why is it so many professing Christians want to take things that originated in the world, tweek this and that, and presto! It’s now God honoring and bona-fide ‘Christian! Rock and roll got its name from illicit, immoral sexual acts in the back seat of a car! Does anyone REALLY think that slapping the Holy name of Jesus on something with such an origin is truly God honoring? Or is it more a case of some not wanting to let go of the world? Many say this CCM makes them ‘feel better’. How dangerous is that? Salvation is NOT based on how we feel! Nor should we think we can ‘sing’ the gospel to lost souls and they will fall prostrate before a Holy God and repent. The true body of Christ discerns the dangers of mixing worldly and claiming it godly. This isn’t a case of being ‘legalistic’ either…ask yourselves, in all honesty, does a Holy, Righteous, Powerful God really deserve to be praised with music that was birthed out of sexual immorality? Faith comes by what? HEARING!! Not amplified guitars, beating drums, etc. The WORD OF GOD has the power to change a deadened heart, and ONLY the Word of God possesses such power. When man tinkers, dilutes, adds to, or takes away from His word, forget it! God will NOT use man’s methods to save lost sinners, it is just that simple. He does NOT need us to save anyone, we are commanded to proclaim the Gospel, not jazz it up, etc, thus making it null and void. Stick to the instruction manual…the Holy Bible.
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The criticism of POD seems to me to involve some degree of legalism- the high-mindedness which Jesus condemned the religious elite for during his ministry. I understand where Pilgrim is coming from and am not saying that he’s wrong; I do think it is good to be discerning and that just because something is labeled as Christian doesn’t mean that there is really any depth, wisdom, or truth to it (and in fact that it can be misleading and a tool of the Enemy). Yet I think that although there is a problem with those who claim to be Christians and don’t walk the walk, it seems there is equally a problem with those who forget that salvation is between a man and his God and that someone who has received, through
child-like faith, the spiritual transaction of salvation may falter in the way they live and may be confused in certain ways regardless of the fact that God has stamped their heart. Not to say that sanctification, purity, and clarity are not important, but condemning someone and/or judging someone as hell-bound because they do not maintain the same level of rigorous purity in their behavior and clarity in their beliefs does not seem right to me (and I am not sure in fact that this is exactly what is occurring in this case, but it seems to me that it may fit).
There are Bible verses that seem to indicate that someone who is not righteous in their behavior is not really saved (eg. 1 John 3:6), but there are also verses which indicate that we, as Christians, do fall short- stumble (i.e. sin), in spite of our professions and intentions of faith (eg. James 3:2a). We need to remember that the law (i.e. legalism) cannot save from sin (Eph. 2:8-9). Nor can works of righteousness commend us to God (Rom. 4:4-5. Yet it is true that we are to be righteous in Christ and to strive for perfection).
A lot of this debate has to do with where emphasis is placed in terms of reading the scriptures; on the responsibility of man to walk worthy of the calling of God, or on the sovereignty of God in declaring man righteous in spite of his grave shortcomings (which continue after salvation, at least to some degree). Clearly both are important, and both are easily overstated (in fact entire denominations within Christianity seem to lean too far one way or too far the other).
The following seems to me to be an appropriate word for warning from the Bible:
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.” Gal. 5:1-6
-In faith in Him (despite great imperfection).
P.S. Reference the Dec. 2000 Rolling Stone mention of Dobson’s criticism of the band for touring with Ozzy and Korn- the Korn lead singer recently left Korn because he gave his life to Christ (publically). I know the point re: the article was that a POD member stated that they didn’t believe in one religion (and I think this is considered a blasphemy in the way it is presented in this context), but I found it very significant that a man otherwise lost in the world (drug-addiction) during his days with Korn was saved.. a coincidence that POD had been touring with him before this occured??
Also, is what religion we believe in really the point, or is our relationship with God different than religion? (Jesus was crucified due to the intolerances of the religiously righteous Pharisees… I know it is hard not to fall into this role, and I have been a ‘Pharisee’ myself).
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New Kid ~ you said ” P.S. Reference the Dec. 2000 Rolling Stone mention of Dobson’s criticism of the band for touring with Ozzy and Korn”…Why would a band that claims to be “Christian” even tour with satanic Ozzie? This is from 2 Corinthians 6:14 “Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?”
Also this, from Isaiah 52:11,”Depart! Depart! Go out from there, Touch no unclean [thing]; Go out from the midst of her, Be clean, You who bear the vessels of the LORD”as well as “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” Ephesians 5:11
There should be a distinction between a born again believer and the lost, in EVERYTHING we say, think, and do. Our style of living should be different from the worlds, including our choice in ‘entertainment’. 1 John 2:15 says this, “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”
Separating from the world is what the new birth produces; Deut. 14:2 states, “For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.” and, from 1 Peter 2:9, “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: ” These verses seemingly indicate a noticeable distinction between a follower of Jesus Christ and a lost sinner. When one is humbled and saved by Almighty God, it is only ‘natural’ that the new creation in Christ no longer desires their old ways, and this does indeed include the worldly forms of entertainment.
The battle is spiritual, and of the mind – “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” Romans 12:2. What you allow into your mind will definitely affect your walk with Christ…why would anyone want to jeopardize anything when it comes to Jesus Christ? I, for one, pray I do nothing that would displease the One who died and gave Himself for me.
This isn’t a form of ‘legalism’ either, a heart that beats solely for Christ will desire to distance itself from all that this world has to offer, especially the worldly things that are cleverly disguised as ‘Christian’. Legalism is when you are told how to dress, what to say, how to wear your hair, etc. We have freedom in Christ, but it should not be abused.
To be a holy people, chosen by God, is to be set apart from the world, to be focused on Christ, and on the world to come. This world and all it has to offer should grow more and more dim as the believer grows and matures in Christ.
The falling away that the Apostle Paul warns of is here…”Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,” 2 Thess. 2:3…the reason many fall away is because the world entices them through deception, but it is so subtle the victim doesn’t even see it coming.
Here’s an interesting quote from POD…Sonny, of P.O.D. gives his reason for appearing on the Blair Witch album: Now, get this “spiritual” wisdom:
“A lot of times people don’t agree with what we do—‘Why are you on the Blair Witch soundtrack?’ he [Sonny] interrupts himself, mimicking a disappointed inquisitor. ‘Dude, they asked us to put our song with their music. That’s like the devil coming up to the church and asking can he put one of their praise songs on his soundtrack. Why would the church say no?’
Sonny, P.O.D.
(CCM, January 2001, p. 29)
“Do you try to set a good example? Do you drink, smoke, do drugs, or swear, for instance?” Sonny’s answer should be a “wake-up call” to any Christian listening to P.O.D. – “those aren’t even issues!”
“Do you try to set a good example? Do you drink, smoke, do drugs, or swear, for instance?
Now, see that’s what I’m talking about. Those aren’t even issues, you know what I mean? But like I said, what if one day I stubbed my toe and said something and all of a sudden somebody said, “Oh my God! He just said the F-word.” But it’s like, “Hey dude, I know the word. I’ve said it before.” Definitely it can come out, but that’s something that I choose every day not to talk like that.”
Sonny, P.O.D.
(www.zianet.com/straightout/pod_press.htm)
In Circus magazine Traa proudly admitts P.O.D. party and “drink beer”.
‘Their life is far from boring and everybody who thinks they’re just Bible thumpers without being able to enjoy their lives is wrong. The guys from P.O.D. do know how to party and Traa readily admits that he does like his beer – just like the rest of the band.
‘Of course we drink beer and we party. You don’t believe how often we get that question. People seem to have the misconception that we spend all our time on our knees praying, but I can assure you, we don’t. If there’s a party, we party!”Traa, P.O.D.
(Circus, July 2002, p. 22)
Is this behavior really lifting up glory and honor to a Holy God?
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Let me point out one more thing in Sonny’s quote, “Oh my God”…here he uses the Lord’s name in vain, in a flippant and unworthy manner, and in so doing, breaks the third commandment. Our speech does indeed reveal what truly lies in our hearts, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.” Matthew 12:34
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Laurie,
I understand your fervor, but taken to its logical conclusion, if Christians were to not use the things of the world for God glorifying purposes, we would have to stop (and this is just a short list)…
…wearing Christian t-shirts.
…advertising on billboards.
…using guitars in our worship.
…using the internet to blog (or post comments) about God.
…using TV to air sermons.
…using radio to spread the gospel.
I understand your point, but we don’t fit Zambians in suits and ties, teach them English, make them sit in pews and praise God from words typed neatly in hymnals. Rather, we share the gospel with them and then allow them to work with it whichever way seems best in the context of their culture. Are we then saddened when they choose to dance and sing and dress according to their culture’s standards when they’re in church? Of course not. So what’s the harm in letting a pimple-faced Jesus freak sing about the doctrines of grace with his indie rock band? If his theology is right and he’s using it to glorify God and God’s using it to to provide opportunities for us to share the gospel, what are we complaining about?
There are two things that people can provide, in order to solidify their statement, when they declare, “I’m not a legalist.” When someone makes a declaration and they don’t want to be considered a legalist, all they have to do is provide chapter and verse (in context, of course). Now, I have no problem calling out specific bands and artists for their theological errors. However, to say that God cannot use a genre of music for His glory is taking a step too far, in my honest opinion. I would urge you to look into the theology and evangelistic efforts of Reach Records before casting any more blanket judgments upon entire segments of an industry.
To add one last thing, I must remind you that the Holy Spirit does His work of sanctification in each of us at different rates. If He has convicted you of the sin of making secular (or secular sounding) music your idol, please don’t assume that everyone needs to be convicted of it as well, and right away. A better way of putting it would be, “I was convicted of ‘X’ in my life, and this is what it looked like when the Holy Spirit convicted me. Here’s the passage that He showed me, in scripture. You may want to examine yourselves to see if ‘X’ is also prevalent in your lives. If it is, I would urge you to repent.”
Remember also that something can be in your life and be an idol. You can be convicted of it and repent. However, when you see it in someone else’s life, don’t automatically assume that it is an idol in their life as well. It could just be something that the person is allowing to be in his life without giving it priority over God. For all you know, it is what the Lord uses to drive him to serve Him more. I’ll leave it at that.
In brotherly love,
Billy.
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farfinoggin~ When you consider that the name rock and roll originated in the back seat of a car, and was thus named by Allan Freed, I don’t see how you can possibly think that is God-honoring. Taking the beat of rock and roll, and adding some Christian lyrics to it does not change the fact that this style of music was birthed out of sexual immorality. We are not to drag things of the world into the church; it’s origin alone makes it unworthy to use in the presence of a Holy God. Again, follow the example of the apostles, and of Christ himself. When they proclaimed the Gospel, what was their method? When Christ was tempted by Satan, what did He use to combat the enemy with? “It is written” was His response, as He then proceeded to quote the scriptures. Why did our Lord and the Apostles quote the scriptures? “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. ” Romans 1:16
The word of God carries the power of God, to transform a dead, stony heart into a heart of flesh {Ez. 35:26}
Again, let us NOT abuse our freedom in Christ, and make excuses for clinging to worldly things.
Legalism is the first accusation most CCM defenders throw at their opponents. It bears repeating, a heart that beats solely for a Holy God will not want to bring anything that originated in this world and is unholy into His presence.
There is an article from Dr. Peter Masters, Minister of the Metropolitan Tabernacle {Spurgeon’s church} that addresses this issue more biblically than I can, I encourage you to read it for yourself. The link is http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/masters/popidiom.shtml.
Here is a sample…
God Hates Pride and Exhibitionism
In worship and in the presentation of the Gospel, all the glory must be the Lord’s. Ministry must be truly Spirit-filled, God-centred, modest and non-exhibitionist.
Pop-idiom methods are undoubtedly saturated with exhibitionism. It is heartbreaking to see youngsters (some of whom undoubtedly have true faith) being encouraged by pastors and Christian leaders to imitate secular performers in the way they draw attention to themselves, bow for applause, and preen themselves for adulation. Professing believers are encouraged to be conceited and vain, and to relish the flattery of this world.
The Bible says that young believers should not be commissioned easily and quickly for the proclamation of the Gospel because of the great temptation to become puffed up, yet here we have a most destructive form of personal showmanship pressed upon the youngest Christians in church youth activities etc.
Speaking about how we must draw near to God the epistle of James says – God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble (James 4.6). This is one of a very large number of scriptures (including the Magniftcat) emphasising that God deals with and uses the humble spirit.
No flesh may glory in the presence of Almighty God. No person may at the same time worship God and vaunt himself. In true worship all individualism must recede into the background. A believer in Christ must never adopt, imitate, revel in, or give himself to the vain exhibitionism of this passing world.
The simple musical aids which God trusts His people to use with discretion should never have been distorted into a means by which people are admired for their ‘performances’ and their beautiful voices and gifts are praised.
May the Lord prompt you to read this entire article, and guide you in all truth as you read.
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I wanted to point out, {but forgot!} the post on some of the CCM artists, from “1 Sabbath, 3 wolves in sheep’s clothing, and 4 golden calves.”
December 7, 2008 by The Pilgrim
..I was not entirely surprised to see Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren, and Rick Warren in support of a ecumenical movement but I was a little surprised to see such CCM golden calves as Natalia Grant, Michael W. Smith, Switchfoot’s lead singer Jon Foreman, and Third Day’s lead singer Mac Powell also lending their support toward this. It seems that every time I turn around another CCM artist reveals how little they believe in the exclusivity of the Gospel.
The One Campaign with the backing of these influential professing Christians has teamed up with three other religions that deny that Jesus is Lord and deny that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Whether you’re a Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Hindu, or of no faith at all, you too can put eternal truths aside to participate in making this world a “better place.”
This speaks volumes about the motive of some of these folks. The narrow way is an exclusive way, and we cannot drag our worldly luggage through its gates! Again, I am NOT telling anyone they can’t listen to CCM, you can listen to anything you want! Just don’t claim it’s ‘worship worthy’ or an ‘evangelical tool’. Let’s not forget to be good fruit inspectors, and avoid eating any bad fruit.
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Laurie,
Yet again, you take specific instances involving specific people and form them into your stereo-typical mold in order to bolster a belief that is wholly unfounded. Do some research into the origins of some of the body movements, clothing styles or instruments used by African Christians in their churches, today. I’m sure you will find stuff strikingly similar to what you say about the origin of Rock ‘n Roll. Then, I would urge you to take your legalism to them, because that’s what it is if it is not based on solid biblical mandate.
Now, I’m not arguing for using Rock ‘n Roll in the place of corporate worship. That is far from what I’m saying. What I am saying is that you can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. There are many great artists out there that are doing amazing work for the kingdom. I urge you to google Lecrae and Trip Lee. See what you can find on them that’s not solid. These are just two examples of how we CAN take something that was meant for evil and use it for God’s glory (Genesis 50:20). These two men are using their God-given talents and abilities, in the area of rap music to spread the doctrines of grace in the inner city.
Should Paul not have used the “alter to an unknown god” on Mars Hill to share the gospel of Christ with the Corinthians? Should Apollos not have used his linguistic talent, which he learned as an atheistic sophist, to spread the gospel of Christ? If I am in a profession for selfish reasons (which we all are, before Christ, because everything we do is selfish, before Christ), should I then quit that profession. Because the origins of me coming into that profession were sinful. I say, “No.” God can use you where you are. If you are a rapper, glorify God as a rapper. If you are a painter, glorify God as a painter. If you are a school teacher, glorify God as a school teacher.
All I am saying is, if you know someone that’s glorifying God in their profession, don’t bash them simply because you disagree with their profession. The problem that seems to be most prevalent here, though, is that you seem to think that all music began as heresy, and thus, ultimately, and in every case, leads to heresy, even Christian Contemporary. I don’t see that. Rather, I see David singing, dancing and playing the harp. I see the daughters of Israel writing songs after they’ve passed through the Red Sea. I see musical instruments being designated to be played with certain Psalms. All of this I see within the construct of the Bible.
Also, I see great men of God reaching many people for Christ in areas of cities that most won’t even venture into unarmed. They don’t do this with music, though their music gets them in the door. They preach the word of God to these youths. They explain Calvin and Luther and Jonathan Edwards and, yes, even Spurgeon to these young people. They are mighty men of God that you would simply turn your back on because you would prefer focus on the origin of the melody that accompanies their words rather than the words that are being preached through their songs. What a shame.
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The original posting was concerning the rock group POD, which was what I was gearing the bulk of my comments toward, i.e., the origin of rock and roll. Again, we should not assume God is okay with us taking something birthed out of sexual immorality, slapping a Christian lyric to it, and saying it is God honoring. Your accusations of legalism hold no water, you defend rock and roll as ‘honorable’ then throw in all kinds of other topics to solidify your argument {the African worship}. You’ve taken a rabbit trail off towards rap, hip hop, etc. My postings are geared to stay on topic, concerning the rock group POD, their brand and style is traceable back to immoral sex in the back seat of a car!
I encourage you to read what I posted earlier, the link is http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/masters/popidiom.shtml.
Let me ask you this, if I did a remake of Led Zeppelin’s ‘Stairway to Heaven’ and changed the lyrics, would it be worthy to present to a Holy God as ‘worship’?
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Farfignoggin~ I have been to CCM concerts, worked briefly in CCM radio, and have seen firsthand how it all works.
The concerts are not much different than the secular rock concerts, the lead singer has the spotlight shining on him, the young girls screams are deafening, and the boys are glued to their girlfriends. The bands perform a variety of songs, some secular, some ‘Christian’. Cell phones are flipped open to light up the auditorium {lighters were used in my day}, and the drummer entices the audience and works them up into a wild frenzy until the lead singer pops on stage, much to the young girls delights. Then, about halfway through the program, some young guy comes on stage and shares his testimony. He invites others to ‘make a decision’ for Jesus, to come forward, then they announce boastfully later how they had x-amount of people come to Jesus.
The sad part is, that ISN’T the Gospel!! We are commanded to repent and believe, but Ephesians 2:8,9 makes it clear how salvation works…”For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
So, all who be-bopped up to the stage and said “I believe in Jesus” were not given the Gospel at all, and sadly end up going home twice the sons and daughters of hell they were when they arrived. There is no transforming work of the heart, they were not told they must r-e-p-e-n-t! So, they go home and think just because they professed Jesus with their mouths, they are heaven-bound. But, the artists, concert promoters, and youth pastors can boast on how many ‘chose’ Jesus that night at the next concert stop. This is American Christianity!
At my brief stint in CCM radio, most of the comments said basically this, ” I love your station, the music makes me “Feel Good”. Now I ask, where is that in scripture? Does not Christ teach how the world will HATE YOU {John 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you”}? Aren’t trials and troubles the norm for the true believer? Christ teaches this from John 16:33,”These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” Your own family will come against you, ~Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;
Mat 10:36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his [own] household.’
The Apostle Paul also pointed out the hardships true converts would face, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:22.
Funny, none of this was mentioned, but that would have lowered the number of ‘decisions’ made.
So, while CCM gives its listeners the ‘warm fuzzies’, it lacks miserably in what all true disciples of Christ must have, food for the soul; guidance and wisdom for the walk. Only the Holy Word of God can save, shape, mold, transform, cut away sin, and bring the baby Christian into spiritual maturity. CCM is nothing more than entertainment, it cannot take the place of the powerful word of God, it has no place in evangelizing the lost. If you want to entertain yourself, so be it. But don’t think true converts will result from a song.
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Obviously you haven’t taken my advice and googled Lecrae. If you had, you might have had the opportunity to see a real gospel message preached on stage. Buuuuut… If you want to lump everyone into the same group, based on a few bad experiences at Toby Mac concerts, I won’t stop you. This is my last comment on this post.
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farfignoggin, The topic is rock music, to go off on rap, hip hop, etc, was to go chasing rabbits. Obviously, you did NOT read the link I suggested either.
I have no problem with CCM as a form of entertainment, because that is all it is. If you want to use rap to open a door to evangelize,and then proclaim the Gospel, that is wonderful.
A quick reference to Leviticus, and the various offerings; note how the Lord commanded the Israelites to offer various types of animals, sheep, bulls, etc, without blemish. That caught my attention, so I checked it out in the original language. This is what I found, ‘blemish~w/o spot, undefiled, upright’. These sacrifices had to be spotless in order to be acceptable to the Lord. They could not be tainted in any way.
With that said, how can you take something that originated by man, i.e., rock and roll, and offer it to God as an acceptable form of worship? It is tainted, defiled, and spotted; it was birthed by sinful man, filled with suggestive lyrics, and has caused many a lost soul to act out on lustful desires upon hearing. To take that same beat, that same theme, and throw some verses from the Bible in as lyrics, lift it to the Lord God, who is Holy, Holy, Holy, and expect it to be an acceptable form of worship is insulting.
It bears repeating, CCM is fine as ‘entertainment’, but should never be considered as an evangelizing tool in of itself, nor as an acceptable form of worship.
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Wow! I could not agree more! This info was RIGHT on! I’m very happy that there are other True Christians that are aware of this. Praise God for truth seekers and encouragers who want the lost to meet reality!
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Pod is a very talented band they have an awesome singer however when I look at their album and they have a lot of new age symbols. look at their albums they have this woman doing a yoga stance come on people open your eyes. they have a black rasta jesus with dreds. unless u know these people personally u don’t know what thet really beleive.
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Paul said that in everything you do, you do it all for the glory of God. Paul was very clear about this when he said Everything… This means, God must be edified in our speech, actions, decisions, lifestyles, music, etc.etc. Granted that we are human and there are temptations scattered all around us, we are still responsible and accountable of every actions that we do regardless. We need to have a conscious effort to continuously seek the Lord for guidance and approval.
Now, just think about it for a sec, you have a band that somehow mirrors a plethora of belief and views. Per the posts above, you will see that they have included Christ in their lyrics, they have also included the word jah in their lyrics. In addition, they have included occultic symbols and new age symbols in their cover. They profess that they are Christians, but if there’s a party, they will party, and if they can drink, they will drink. Let us be clear about this brothers and sisters. If I can create an analogy, I see one tree with different fruits completely unrelated to each other. Perhaps an apple tree that bears apples but also bears oranges, plums, and other fruits. This is what POD is my friends.
There is no judgement on my part, but rather an observation of what I see and hear. Is POD really true believers of Jesus Christ? I see a tree that bear many different fruits, not exactly proclaiming “Exclusively” the one true God of the Bible. Don’t you think that this go against what I just wrote previously that Everything must be done for the Glory of God? Spare me the quote “I don’t know the person, so I don’t know what he really believes.” I don’t think I will ever know the Pope or the president for that matter, but I do know based on their actions that they are not saved. Christ said that we will know them by their fruits. He never said that we will know them if we talk to them over a cup of coffee. We can have this endless debate whether a band is christian or not, and I’m sure that if permitted, this debate won’t end by itself. The only thing I know is that the Word of God does not waver, flop or change. It is constant and unchanging. He is the same God yesterday, today and forever. If you are a true christian, then your statement of faith should reflect that the Bible is the written word of God, complete and inerrant, and is the final authority of all that we do, say, think etc.etc.
The Bible, contrary to the popular belief that it has rooms for change and grey areas, is never-changing and only sees black and white. If you are not of the father, then you are of satan. That’s as black and white that it can get. The bible has integrity, people, like us do not. And it is us that wants to shape and mold the word of God into our own characteristics and not the other way around.
Dear friends, you don’t have to judge POD by yourself and what you know of them. Use the bible and let the fruits you see from POD stand against what the bible says. And remember that it must be everything and not just one aspect of POD. Romans 12 says to present our Body as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. It did not say just a portion of what we are, but it’s asking for everything that we are. And if the fruits that come out of POD do not stand against the Word of God, then they are not of God. But if their fruits are according to the Word of God, then Praise God for that.
Let that be the challenge. God Bless you all!
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In my own words ~ Amen! Well said.
We must understand and remember God’s hatred of sin, and what this world thinks is okay doesn’t mean it is acceptable to a Holy God. The way is narrow, it is exclusive; we cannot drag our worldly pet sins through the gate. We cannot dress up the world, what it loves, and call it holy and acceptable.
You bring up a very valid point, examine the fruit indeed. This is not judgmental or legalistic {they have beaten that one to death}, this is what scripture teaches! It is worth repeating, there are no gray areas in scripture, it is very much black and white. It is only when man tries to twist the scriptures to accommodate his sinful ways that arguments and division occurs.
May Almighty God open ears and eyes to His truth, granting discernment to all. God bless
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I’m a believer and honestly after reading all of these posts all I came away with was the feeling that a couple legalistic christians were trying to be holier than everyone else (and these are just feelings, I can’t actually perceive your actual thoughts and motives through text). But seriously, I am a believer and after reading this post I’m kinda scared that some Christians would pick a fight with me for having my iPod glaring with Hillsong United’s rock sounding worship music (which is proven, Godly, worship music… check out hillsonguntied.com). I don’t think all of this intellectual debating is doing anything for anybody. Our purpose on this earth is to love, serve, and hopefully reach the lost. Now none of us personally know POD and therefore cannot truly testify as to the state of their spiritual lives. Maybe they are just bad at interviews and being publically asked about their faith (it’s not easy for a lot of people). Probably not, but let’s give them love and hope and pray (bc in their case that’s prob all we can do) that they will be ignited with a ferver for God that is evidenced more in their interviews. We can debate all we want but I say since we cannot actually know for sure, then we should allow for the best possible scenario and love on these guys! And I don’t mean you have to love their music either. Or Rock N’ Roll Laurie, but really rock and roll is just a couple words that happened to become the habitual title for a type of music during the 50’s, it does not mean that every song talks about sex in the back seat of cars. I suggest that you instead call it something more to your liking (and I’m serious! this might be a good idea!) and cause a trend to start where everybody calls rock and roll music by something purer (although it’s not even called rock n’ roll anymore, it’s called rock). That’s honestly a problem that I see with the Church today, we get stuck on the smallest things such as a label that is placed on a very large diverse group of people or things and we generalize. I say let’s try to be more open to the fact that there is the chance that some may be different and that every one of them might be one of the different one’s. Remember Abraham’s plea for Sodom.
And seriously, i love you guys and I’m glad you seek to learn and debate among believers, but I really don’t think this post edifies us as Christians, nor does it give us a good witness to the lost. I know all of you mean well so let’s agree on the essentials: Jesus is God and he is the Way and the only way and he love’s us and the rest of the people in the world including the people in POD; and that is also why our lives are important, we are here to love on them too and not pass any judgements in this world. (not saying we’re not accountable to each other). And if all of this stuff about POD makes you mad and you want them to be punished and shown to not be Christians then I suggest you chill out because God will judge them for the good or the bad. So you really have nothing to worry about. Let the Holy spirit prompt you on whether or not to listen to POD and everthing will be worked out! Wow, problem solved! Christianity actually remains quite simple!
Thanks and Much Love!
Steven
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I have read the articles and I must say this, I have for the last 2 months stuided P.O.D. closely and I have watched interviews. In the interview Sonny said that he is a christian and he lives for Jesus every day and that’s the message he is trying to get out through his music. And yes I know that they use some weird symbols on the band CD’s but whose to say that they didn’t pay someone else to design them. I still believe that P.O.D. is a christian band.
Thanks for reading,
Daniel .
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Dear Daniel:
Thanks for stopping by.
Your comment begs two questions.
1). If you were in a Christian band and you had an artist do the artwork on your CD, would you have no input whatsoever in it’s design? What if when the cover for your Christian band’s CD came back it was not covered in occult symbols but in graphic sexual depictions between those of the same sex? Would you simply dismiss it as you have done with P.O.D. claiming that you paid someone else to design the artwork?
2). You say Sonny professes to be a Christian. Does the Bible say we are to know people by their fruit or their confession? Do you consider Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians because they merely profess to be?
Sincerely,
– The Pilgrim
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Dear Pilgiram
I respect your convictions but I think that this has turned into a witch hunt. You are clearly well versed in the arts of logic and argument, and you know how to use the bible to get your point across. Yet, in the end I think you need to reconsider how close minded you are, from someone who knows the bible so well you sure do some to have a hardened heart.
I will not be posting anymore comments but I just thought you should know that for those of us who do worship the darkness people like POD are not our allies. In fact they provide a service that your churchs and preachers do not I have lost many a member of my coven to bands like POD; they deliver the message of God in a way that someone who knows only the paths of hell can understand.
Thank you for your time
P.S.
Feel free to delete my comment I would understand if you did :>
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I find it tragic when those like Pilgrim, who are striving to speak the truth in love and warn of the dangers of CCM, in this case POD, are labeled as those leading a witch hunt. The irony that is lost on the poster accusing him of this is that we as Christians SHOULD be rooting out witchcraft and any of the dark arts out of the church. Yet there are many who do not want this but want to hold on to the ways of the world and are unwilling to listen to their elders.
In terms of music, whether people want to acknowledge it or not, there is a spirit associated with it where music is far from amoral. If you think this you are either ignorant or being disingenuous; because we all know how music (apart from lyrics) carries a language all its own. This is why Hollywood spends countless dollars on the musical score for a movie which almost always are without lyrics. Yet the music’s effect on the audience is precise and exact. Whether it is to get them to shed a tear or raise their arms in jubilation, the music moves them in a way that bypasses their conscious mind and goes right to their heart.
This is also why so many bands can tour across the globe playing for audiences who do not speak a lick of the given tongue they are singing in, yet by looking at the audience’s reactions you would never know it. Why? Because of the music and its incredible power.
Same true of club music which I use to listen to when I was in the world and would go out partying. Many times I did not understand the lyrics or if I did had no idea of what they were trying to say (like burning down the house or something similar), but what I did understand was the beat. The beat and rhythm which got me to do what it was intended to do. Get up and gyrate my body in a perverse and wicked manner; just as it did for the other club attendees.
POD is not of Christ as their music is worldly and from the roots of satanic heavy metal. Whether this one or that one is a Christian I am not going to seek to root out the tares from the wheat, but what I do know is their music is not of the Lord and fails the Biblical test (Col 3:16, Eph 5:19). It matters not whether they mention the name of Jesus or have Biblical themes for even the demons do this. Man, get a grip people even Ozzy Osbourne has Biblical references in his music.
All I can ask is that which Pilgrim said is for folks to study it out. I mean study it out and don’t get all defensive without studying it out for weeks, months or even longer. I, like Pilgrim gave up secular music when I got saved; well I gave up most as I foolishly thought I could winnow the “good” e.g. Eagles from the “bad” e.g. Led Zeppelin. This was deception as the Eagles are just as vile as LZ.
Then, I started with CCM until I realized this was not of the Lord. Ecumenical concerts, limp-wristed “gospel” message, cotton-candy lyrics, web sites with NO gospel or true convicting messages, merchandising the things of God, seeking the applause and approval of men (e.g. DOVE awards), playing up to fawning & lusting females, women dressed like harlots to tempt men, this and more showed me that CCM was a Trojan horse.
I sincerely hope and pray that folks will study this out and come out from amongst them and touch not the unclean thing.
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Brother Michael, Amen to your post! So many want to cleave to their worldly ‘idols’ and will argue defending those idols as ‘Christian’. We seem to so easily forget the way is narrow, which means ‘restricted’. You cannot bring your worldly baggage with you. We are called to follow Christ alone, it is a simple command. If one would notice the reaction of the disciples when they were called, one could see what is required. They left EVERYTHING, they did not hold on to one thing from this world. They left their livelihood, and, in the case of James and John, their father; they’d left all that they’d ever known. Some will scream ‘legalism!’, yet, the scriptures are clear and concise…’come, follow me’. Let’s not excuse our worldly ‘vices’, let’s forsake them; not as an act of legalism, but as a desire to please and serve Him who is worthy. After all, we were bought at a high price; a life was given for us. Blood was shed to cleanse us from our filth, the sinless Lamb of God was sacrificed. Those who belong to the Lamb will be changed, their minds being renewed by the Spirit through the word. Their lives will be drastically transformed, others will notice. They no longer desire this world or cheap imitations of ‘Christianity, they only desire Christ. May we understand to call to deny self, pick up our cross and follow Him. May we turn our backs on this world and its continual pull, forsaking superficial forms of ‘Christianity’; may we follow wholeheartedly the One True God.
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Dear Brother Michael:
Thanks for your comment. It was spot on and I can do no justice by attempting to add to it other than quoting a comment I saw a few years back: “When I got saved I threw out all my secular music. When I really got saved I threw out all my Christian music.”
Dear Lyn:
The abandonment of all things by the Disciples is a completely foreign concept to those in modern American Christianity. In fact the very opposite is true. The modern gospel message is how to get stuff and how to enjoy that stuff to its fullest extent with as little suffering as possible.
Dear “light” bearer:
You may have lost members of your coven to P.O.D. but don’t assume that your loss resulted in the Kingdom of God’s expansion. Unless those who left the coven are now clinging to the old rugged cross, your loss was not God’s gain. When someone moves from one of Lucifer’s camps to another, the fact remains that he’s still in Lucifer’s camp.
Whether your glass contains 100% arsenic or 95% water and only 5% arsenic, drinking either will leave you just as dead.
– The Pilgrim
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Peace to all of you who are in our Lord Jesus Christ,
– What have we become, how sad to look at the type of people we are still today. Are we not just like the pharisees of Jesus’ days? Who care more about the outside then the inside. It is not the music, tattoos or lack of, it is not the classical beautiful hymns played on the organ piano or played on the Electric grunge guitar that makes it true praise to our Lord Jesus, It’s our heart. If “Amazing Grace” is sung by an Imorral Man or Woman, God does not receive it unless their heart is right and sincere. I tell you this on the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, that if an Imorral Man or Woman sings “Amazing Grace” to a organ classical piano sound but they have not repented then God will not accept their praise. – End of Story.
If P.O.D. is right in their heart with God then I tell you God accepts their praise. Nobody has the right to say otherwise. If P.O.D.’s music (as hardcore as it might get sometimes) lifts up your heart in Praise to Our Lord Jesus then don’t worry God accepts your praise. If P.O.D. start denying The Word Of God and If they make music with perversion in it then we can stay away from such, Till then Don’t be led astray from these who say God only accepts old style of worship.
Peace And Love, “I Feel So Alive” Thank The Lord.
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Dear Jeremiah:
Although I think this horse has been beaten beyond recognition, (see the tons of comments above), I suppose we can revisit it once more as you are bringing arguments (as others before you) into the equation that are irrelevant to the original post.
First of all, the original post had nothing to do with style of music. I don’t know why defenders of POD keep reverting back to this. If it is in response to one of the comments above, then direct your comment accordingly, because otherwise it appears that you are addressing the original post and–again–it has nothing to do with music style.
Secondly, you said: “If P.O.D. start [sic] denying The Word Of God and If they make music with perversion in it then we can stay away from such . . . ”
What you meant by “perversion” I am not sure, and I am also not sure what you mean when you say if they “start denying The Word Of God . . . then we can stay away from such.”
Does this mean that they must sing a song with lyrics that say something like: “We deny the Word of God?”
I mean, after all, they deny the Word of God in indirect ways constantly as cited in the links I provided in the original post.
I have a suspicion that you may not have read all the information contained on those links, or if you have, you’ve chosen to ignore the information. Not sure which, but I will provide a couple quotes for you below and you will see the issue is not style of music, but content of word and lifestyle by a band whose loyal fans keep claiming as Christian.
“You were recently criticized by Christian radio talk-show host Dr. Dobson for forsaking your religious beliefs by touring with Ozzfest and Korn”.
WUV: We respect the man, but he never had a conversation with us. Just because P.O.D. are a spiritual band doesn’t mean we adhere to any one religion, and all kinds of people want to use us as a symbol for their thing. There’s a thousand different definitions of what a Christian is, but we don’t feel like there are any lines.”
(Rolling Stone, Dec. 14-21, 2000, p. 102)
Q: Are you or are you not a Christian band?
A: We’re not, but we do believe in Jesus. (www.movieline.com, 11.00.1999)
G1- P.O.D. is known for its religious beliefs, and Ozzfest can easily be viewed as a debauchery— you know, sex, drugs, and rock ‘n’ roll. Is there a conflict of interest?
MC- Yeah, but we’re not necessarily a Christian band. We are, to an extent, a rock band that loves God, and we’re not ashamed of that.”
(Interview with Guitar One,
http://www.angelfire.com/rock/PODoutkast
“Even before P.O.D. ruffled feathers by joining Ozzfest, the group caught flax from the Christian community for its controversial stage backdrop, which featured a Rasta-like image of Jesus.”
(Guitar World, Oct 2000, p. 100)
“A few seconds later, the overpowering smell of reefer filled the daytime sky. Well, P.O.D. did have a Rastafarian Jesus hanging behind the stage.”
(www.strangerthingsmag.com/ozzfest.html)
These are just a few of the many quotes from and about POD that should make defenders of POD a little concerned. And that’s not even to mention the occult symbols all over POD’s albums.
POD defenders got some explaining to do.
– The Pilgrim
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I am not here to be part of this argument, i just want to clarify 1 thing that i find that is missunderstoof by allmost every one here, the term Jah is not used excluively by Rastafarias and it doesnot refer to haile selassi but to God (Confirmed by Rasta friends of mine). It is most commonly used by Rastas but again not an word exclusive to the.
Example: “halleluJAH”, meaning “Praise the Lord” -> Praise Jah
I would conclude that Jah = Lord
Jah bless 😉
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I have read mostly all the posts here and agree with this below:
“Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,” II Corinthians 6:17
“Abstain from all appearance of evil.” I Thessalonians 5:22
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” I John 2:15
I agree that the demonic symbols are not edifying for a chrisitian and we should ban all artist who spread them even though they profess to be christians.. they are one foot in church and one foot in world people..
I have a question i would like Pilgrim or some one else to asnswer though. What shoudl i listen to a a christian.. i banned all guys with occultic symbols and so on.. most of the gospel artist tat profess to e christians anyway got secrets we dont know about.. they in drugs, adultery etc.. who do i listen to then?? what type of music is good because i listen to all types of gospel i find edifying and praising God but some are Rap and Rock.. i hear these types of music are not GOdly i dont get it. wat do i listen to now??
should i get rid of KJ-52, kutless, Lecrae, Newsboys, MErcy Me, and all these guys, their stuff sound pretty good and they appear to live clean lives…
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zulualpha7
I can only share some thoughts and do not lay them out as dogma. I grew up with Rock, Heavy Metal, etc. where it literally became my lifeblood to get me through the day. Whenever I got into the car, the music would go on. In my bedroom the music would be blaring. Jamming with friends in their basement or garage, the music would be flowing.
When I became a Christian for a while I thought I could continue along with some of the rock I deemed not as bad as some of the more explicit. But in time I learned that this was compromise where I was trying to keep one foot on the broad way and one on the narrow path. Yet this cannot be.
Then, folks introduced me to “Christian” rock/heavy metal (think Stryper) and for a season I dabbled with this and some of the CCM artists. But once again I came to see that this was nothing more than the same music I listened to when I was lost with only some lyrics changing.
I also did research into many of the CCM artists that are so big out there and found their testimonies less than convincing where many look like the world, sound like the world, and I’d imagine live like the world. Here, I could go to countless artist’s websites and no matter how high or low I searched I could not find a solid presentation of the gospel. Sure I could find plenty of pictures of them in concert, I could find their lyrics, I could find their tour schedule and always their online store, but most times I could never find a clear and bold presentation of the gospel (I know there are exceptions). I’ll leave the reader to answer for themselves why this is so.
There are more things I could write about this industry, and it is an industry; a money making industry, but will not go too far afield. Instead, I will ask you to ponder this. First, I imagine (and if I’m wrong forgive me) that you probably enjoy listening to music a lot. iPOD walking around, driving in the car, sitting in your bedroom, etc.
My question is what would your life be like if say you cut out the music for a season (I’m not speaking of church obviously)? What if instead of music you substituted in place of the music say an audio reading of the Scriptures, or an audio book speaking about history or some other subject of interest that both edifies and instructs? What about reading books such as testimonies of the missionaries of old or again, any subject of interest that will build you up as a man of God?
I know it would be hard but I also know it would do you a world of good as you would be greatly edified in your walk. I write this as I know, the truth be told, that many believers today are addicted to the passive listening of music and cannot imagine living life without it. It is as if silence is a great evil that they must banish by having music on at all times.
Yet this is only a very recent trend where in years gone by most Christians got by with a fraction of the music we ingest today. Certainly in church they would have singing of hymns, and also in home gatherings and for special occasions, but outside of this, there was not a whole lot of music. And obviously they did not have stereos, iPODS, etc. that kept the music going in a passive manner 24×7. Instead, their music was them actively singing in praise to God, and then going on with their daily lives making melody in their heart.
Just some thoughts for you to consider.
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Thank you brother michael;
This really puts things into perspective.. more so the lastter part of your post.. like listening to audio bible and reading edifying literature..
Z
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its so sad. all of yall arguing about this. theres ppl diein out there. man Jesus loves them he wants you to tell them. maybe thats what PODs trying to do maybe not. who are you to judge them other than by what they say. only God knows there hearts. all we know is they say they love Jesus, and well its says in first john, everyone that confesses Jesus is Lord is from God. so hey, all yall christian hatin on POD, stop it yall, do what you believe is right in your own life and forgive others and try to love them like Jesus. i dont hate yall, please dont hate me. Jesus loves you. He loves POD. He died so we could come back to fellowship with him. in the end all that matters is you come to Christ for forgiveness. Pass Jesus’ love on. It could change someone’s life maybe even change yours. He changed me. Im forgiven and i feel so free! 🙂 “by this shall all men know ye are my diciples, if you love one another.” -Jesus Christ. (who by the way was a rebel, he wasnt a rebel against God, he was a rebel against the lies of the culture.)
thank you Jesus:) i hope this makes you think. not makes you mad. anger is hatred which is murder according to Jesus. Dont hate. LOVE! God is Love:)
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@isaiah
“everyone that confesses Jesus is Lord is from God.”
Does that mean that Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are Christians?
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isaiah,
Yeah, and they are going to Hell if they die in their sins.
Actually, if they are lost, the Bible says they are God’s ENEMIES!
Well, it only took a couple of words before you pulled out the judgment card… surprise, surprise.
Actually, we are obeying what the BIBLE says… Have you read it?
Does He?
No, He died to pay for our SINS!
No. All that matters is that through repentance and faith in Christ alone, you die to yourself and live for Him.
We are.
I don’t care about changed lives. I care about lost souls being saved. HUGE difference!
We’ll see. How’s your spiritual fruit?
Feelings can be deceiving. Are you SAVED?
Do not quote Scripture out of context to try to make a point. Use hermeneutics.
No. Jesus is God. He’s not some tattooed punk bustin’ up the place.
It made me wonder… about the state of your salvation.
Nope. No anger here. It takes LOVE to confront others with their sins, doctrinal error, etc. If I hated you, I’d let you go on your merry way… to Hell.
Do you understand what that even MEANS? God’s love is AGAPE, not the drippy, touchy-feely, warm-fuzzy love man envisions.
God is also a God of perfect judgment and of wrath. In the Book of Revelation, Jesus returns to confront His enemies – the unrepentant “earth dwellers” who curse God. This is prophesied in Isaiah chapter 63 where it says that Jesus will destroy His enemies by trampling them until their blood stains His garments up to His waist.
LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE?
God does everything PERFECTLY. You and I… not so much.
Read your Bible… and get saved!
In Christ Jesus,
– Jeff H
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Isaiah:
I don’t hate the P.O.D. guys. I have strong disagreement with their methods, if indeed they are attempting to reach people with the Gospel. Not because it is not the way I would do it, but because it is not consistent with how God has declared Christians must be in His word. It is important we consider what He said in the whole of His word, and we must be careful to resist taking a scattered verse here and there.
For example: “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9) is not a stand alone litmus test to prove one is a Christian. Jesus also said “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46). He also tells us in Matt. 7:21-23: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.”
So, you see, it really doesn’t matter to Jesus if we merely say we are Christians, or if we say He is Lord. What He has said is that we must do the will of the Father in Heaven (which He has explained in His word). That requires repentance and obedience, which is evidenced by the fruit in our life. It is what it means for Jesus to be Lord.
So, Isaiah, please understand, according to Jesus, we must display this fruit in our lives, not merely speak Christian words. If we behave in a worldly, fleshly manner, we are not showing to the unsaved world the Christ of the Scriptures, the light of the world, Who is supposed to shine through us. Besides showing love, Jesus also calls His children to be holy, for He is holy. How are we doing that if we live fleshly, worldly lives, which He specifically forbids us to do: “For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would.” (Gal. 5:17)
Good intentions are not good enough. The Old Testament gives us lesson after lesson of people who, with perhaps the best of intentions, did not do things according to God’s instructions. And they paid the price. God is very clear, that we do things His way, not our way.
It’s one or the other. We cannot mix flesh and spirit, worldliness and Godliness. And we certainly cannot disobey God’s word to “reach” the lost for Christ. That may be man’s distorted way of doing things, but it is not God’s way.
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Hi guys:) Sorry this is so long! Hope you take the time to read it!
Shane-No it does not mean Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are christians. They do not confess Jesus as supreme ruler. J.W.s teach that Jesus is Michael the archangel and Mormons teach that He is a god, one of the sons of God along with Satan, and that we can all be like him someday and become a god too. So clearly neither confess Jesus as Lord. By the way I’m sorry I miss quoted the verse i was getting confused with one in 1 John. Here is the verse I wanted to quote: 1 Corinthians 12:3
“Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” …The one I was confused with in I John is this: 1 John 4:2 “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:”, by the way notice the words “no man” and “every.” God’s word does not lie, nor does He use words flippantly.
Jeff H-
You are correct, if they die in there sins they will go to hell:( Very sobering thought. So let’s tell them about what Christ did for them on the cross:) Best news ever!
Jesus loves them he wants you to tell them. (That is what i said)
(This is how you responded)
Actually, if they are lost, the Bible says they are God’s ENEMIES!
Are you questioning that Jesus loves the world? Well anyway you are correct in that they are God’s enemies. That is a major portion of the gospel and why God sent Jesus to die for us. We all are God’s enemies when we are in our lost state. But God does love us even though we hated him. We didn’t want to make peace with Him, so He made an option for us to have peace with Him. Romans 5:8
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” He loved us so he didn’t want to be enemies anymore so, “And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:” Eph. 2:16.
Yes sir, I pulled the “judgment card”. To quote Jesus Christ, “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.” -John 12:47. Jesus went on to say that His words will judge them in the last day. Right now however Christ is calling, “Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” 🙂
Yes, I have read the Bible, many times. And yes we should definitely obey the Bible. However there are some issues the Bible does not give totally clear direction on because they are amoral in and of themselves and it relies on the occasion, culture, and your own conscience. An example of this would be the corinthians eating meat offered to idols. In I Cor. 8:4-8 it says, “As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.” Another passage of interest is 1 Cor. 10:29-31: “Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience? For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.” I would quote one more with application to this, I John 3:19-21: “And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.”
Yes, Jesus loves POD as in the band members of POD. How can you question that? John 3:16. Don’t try to reinterpret the word “world.” It means world. Not world of the elect. The world would include POD. Sorry if you don’t want them to go to heaven, God does. -2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Ezekiel 33:11 “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?”
Next. Did Jesus accomplish restoration of fellowship by his death on the cross? And the answer from the Bible, a resounding yes! Rom. 5:10 “For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” Romans 5:1
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:” And you are right, Jesus did die to pay for our sins! But if all God wanted was for our sins to be paid for he would have just let us spend eternity in hell. However, God is not only just, but He love us. He wanted to be reconciled with us. So He sent His Son to be “…propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” -1 John 2:2
Next. Why so quick to jump on me? Repentance and faith in Christ alone is how we come to Him for forgiveness. Dieing to yourself and living for Christ is what we should do after salvation. It is a response of love to him. “We love Him, because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19. I agree it is very important!
You say you’re passing Jesus’ love on. I’m glad. That’s what we’re here for. I wasn’t saying you weren’t, just encouraging you on. Keep it up:)
Changed lives: I was not saying all that matters is here and now. I agree what matters is “souls being saved.” However, this leads to a changed life. It’s the whole dieing to yourself and living to God thing. 2 Cor. 5:15 says, “And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.” That is saying He died so we could have a changed life:) While we live here on earth we cannot see our brothers living in heaven. But we can see a changed life. It is one of the greatest testimonies to Christ. He doesn’t just save us from the punishment of our sins. He saves us from the power of sin, so we can have a “changed” or new life. “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” 2 Cor. 5:17.
The next thing you said is “we’ll see.” I’m not sure how. And “how’s your spiritual fruit?” Well seeing as you dont know me and I don’t know you I wont judge you. If you judge me that’s up to you. My spiritual fruit is nothing to brag about from my point of view. I desperately want to draw closer to Christ so I can live out the fruit of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. I definitely have not gotten where I need to be, but I have the desire. As Paul said in Phil. 3:12-14, “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”
Yes, Thank God, I am saved:)!! And yes feelings can be deceiving, (To quote the song “east to west” by Casting Crowns, “I can’t live by what i feel, but by the truth Your word reveals…”). Feelings cannot govern us but this does not necessarily mean they are always wrong. To quote the Bible again, 1 John 3:19-21 says the following: “And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.” It’s pretty straight up:)
Next. I did not take John 13:35 out of context. The context is the last supper. Jesus is talking to His disciples about what will happen, His death and resurrection and so on. This is a command He gave them. It was how they were to represent Him after He ascended. He gave no boundaries of context, like when they were supposed to love each other or ever said there was a time they weren’t supposed to love each other. I’m pretty sure His command still rings true to his disciples today “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”
I agree Jesus is God. He is not some tattooed punk bustin’ up the place. I didn’t say He was.
You wonder about the state of my salvation. Umm ok. I don’t. Neither does God. Jesus secured it for me. 🙂 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:27-28
I agree love will make you confront someone with their sins and doctrinal error. However sometimes people get mad when you disagree with them and will argue with you, not out of love but out of self righteous indignation. I hope you are doing it out of love:) That’s the best way:)
Yes, agape is the greek word used for love when talking about Gods love in the N.T. I know:) And I understand what love is. It’s when someone gives up an organ for their brother or sister or friend. It’s what makes a soldier jump on a grenade to save his buddies. It’s when Jesus gave up His life so we could live. “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13 I wasn’t talking about touchy feely or whatever you said. I was talking about actually caring.
I agree God is the judge and will judge. And rightly so. However that is not the purpose of Jesus first coming but of his second. To quote a verse i already used. “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” -John 12:47,48 Notice, “in the last day.” Right now God patiently holding back his judgment, “but [God] is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9
So yes, LOVE:)
I agree God does everything perfectly! We don’t. Our God is awesome:)
I do read my Bible. I will try to read it more:) Thank you for encouraging me to:) I need it every moment, everyday!
DavidW-Thank you for your courteous response. I agree with a lot of what you say. I don’t want to accuse you of hating the POD guys. Thank you for not doing so. I actually have never listened to POD myself. I saw some songs of theirs in a friend’s song book, and I remembered a friend of mine telling me that POD actually was satanic and stood for power of darkness. So I wanted to check it out. I actually read the articles this page has links too on their original page before coming here. From what I’ve read, I would say POD has a lot of problems if they are christians. But they need help if so, not people questioning their motives. I cannot judge someone’s heart but I did read several interviews of them and they seemed to me to be uneducated biblically in some things, but they also seemed like they wanted to bring people to Christ. That could all be a front I know, but I won’t judge them. Their motives and salvation are between them and God. One thing I would caution is something that happened to Jesus and his disciples in Luke chapter 9. There was someone not associated with and who had not been following Jesus who was casting out devils, “And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.” Luke 9:49-50
I partially agree with your second paragraph. However, the verse goes on to say “…and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, no, the Lord thing doesn’t make you a christian; but together with belief in your heart you will be a christian. This, however, is only a thing between oneself and God. You cannot know what someone else believes. I never said everyone who call Jesus Lord is a christian. The verses you quoted prove that is not true. The Bible is saying the spirit behind someone saying that is from God. Like God is using them for his purpose.
I entirely agree with your third paragraph:)
I agree with number 4 too! However, sometimes christians live lives that don’t please God. “Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7:13-25 Sorry that’s so long I just wanted to give the whole context. So we see that even though Christ gives us the power to live a holy life, we don’t always do so. Sometimes we walk in the flesh. This does not mean we are unsaved, we just have a war going on inside of us.
I agree good intentions are not good enough. But they are the starting point. You need to desire to follow God before you will.
I agree, never disobey God’s word. Even if trying to reach the lost. I’m sure POD has done so. But again this is the “war within our members.” We should pray for POD, that God would help them get right what they need to. We should also pray that we won’t be too harsh on things that don’t matter in the end like tattoos. They will all probably be gone in heaven anyway. We’re all dieing physically, the man on the inside is what counts. As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 4:16, “For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.”
Thank you again, David for your courteous response. I appreciate it. I don’t want to diss you or accuse you of anything.
To all of y’all, I think I did not take anything out of context and I supported all my points with scripture. God loves you:) It’s the greatest news for anyone ever!!!
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For those who want to do some research on POD and how their light is darkness, please see the article at the bottom of this post which has additional article links at the bottom of the page. To call these guys Christians is an insult to the Lord of Glory. Even their own words condemn them where they have been quoted in Rolling Stone in response to them touring with anti-Christ KORN:
“You were recently criticized by Christian radio talk-show host Dr. Dobson for forsaking your religious beliefs by touring with Ozzfest and Korn”.
WUV: We respect the man, but he never had a conversation with us. Just because P.O.D. are a spiritual band doesn’t mean we adhere to any one religion, and all kinds of people want to use us as a symbol for their thing. There’s a thousand different definitions of what a Christian is, but we don’t feel like there are any lines.”
(Rolling Stone, Dec. 14-21, 2000, p. 102)
No lines, a spiritual band and not adhering to any one religion. Ok – I got it now.
For more insights into the fruit of POD, check out:
http://www.av1611.org/crock/pod_dark.html
A tree is known by its fruit and if their fruit is Christian, we are in a very, very sad state. And if this were true Christianity, I’d go back to Catholicism in a heartbeat. Of course I’m being facetious hopefully to make my point.
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I read the article and I’m wondering how did the lie ever get started that P.O.D. are Christian. Yes we will know them by their fruit and their fruit is rotten. a comparison would be John MacArthur speaking with and endorsing todd bentley, rick joyner, benny hinn, kenneth copeland and all the other apostates. There is such rebellion in the church and people don’t want to listen. The majority are not saved and are the result of a weak, ineffectual, luke warm gospel. This couldn’t only be a lack of discernment as they blatantly show what they believe, it’s a result of unregenerate hearts who have no love for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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Isaiah,
You state your case using God’s word, but, you must understand, we MUST use God’s word in the proper context. For instance, you say God loves the world, which is in the general sense all of mankind. Yes, this is true, BUT, that doesn’t mean every single sinner will go to heaven. Christ paid the penalty for all who repent and believe in the Gospel. Our Lord Himself said few find the narrow way/gate {Matt. 7:14}.
I also suggest you read this from Psalm 7:11, ‘God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.’–or this from Psalm 11:5, ‘The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. ‘ You have formed a ‘god’ of your own understanding, your god is all lovey dovey, but that is NOT the God we find in the bible. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob HATES sin and will punish the wicked eternally. You also take out of context -2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” {Read this from 2 Timothy 2:25, ‘in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth’. All of salvation is from the Lord, including repentance.} We cannot assume God desires all of wicked mankind to be saved, because His word says most will follow the broad way. We must understand 2 Peter 3:9 as speaking to those God elects to save. You have taken this verse out of context, trying to make it say that God desires every single person to be saved. Since that doesn’t happen, does that mean we serve a ‘weak’ God? NO! Again, you cannot cherry pick verses to ‘fit’ your view of who you say God is. We all know God is love, but we also understand His holiness, righteousness, and hatred of sin. Because He is holy, He MUST punish sinners. That fact that God saves ANY is truly a miracle, for we all deserve hell.
We must understand that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, NOT some lyric in a song. If CCM artists were truly in it for the glory of God, they would preach the Gospel. We must also understand that man does NOT possess the ability to choose Jesus, make a decision for Christ, or any other man-made work that says you’re saved by that work. No one has the power to transform a dead in sin sinner into a born from above believer, only God saves…all by His grace. Ephesians 2:8,9 makes that crystal clear. Even faith is God’s gift, we have not the ability to have faith unless God gifts us with it. Repentance is also given by God, we cannot just repent of sin on our own and it be legit.
True born from above believers are gifted with discernment, we can spot bad fruit when we see/hear it.
P.O.D. is tangled up in the world, which the bible commands us NOT to love. They bear no true fruit of a born again believer. Yes, we should pray for them, praying that God would truly save them from their sins. ALL of mankind is dead in sin, hating God and UNABLE to come to Christ unless the Father draws…the problem with American Christianity is that everyone who claims to believe in Jesus must be a Christian, after all, they said that prayer, or they were baptized, or they invited Jesus into their heart. This is easy believism, teaching a salvation by works; all of which is NOT found anywhere in scripture.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8.9
I strongly encourage you to study the whole counsel, verses that speak of the one true God who hates sin, and will punish all who do evil.
lyn
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lyn, I was not meaning to open up a debate on calvinism vs. freewill. You claim I take 2 Pet. 3:9 out of context. Are you missing my point? What about the other verse i used in Ezk. I understand that not everyone gets saved. That doesn’t mean God loves them any less. Jesus died for them. It is their choice “Choose you this day who you will serve…” Josh. 24:15 (I understand the context is Joshua speaking to Israel, however I think it can apply to anyone. I understand God judges the wicked everyday, totally true. But this was not the purpose of Jesus first coming. That is the purpose of His second which is still future. And yes no one can come to God unless God draws them first. That is true, however, there is at least one point in everyones life when God calls to them. “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:” Acts 17:30. And to quote a verse I’ve used before, “Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.” Matt. 11:28. Do only elect people labor? No. Are only elect people heavy laden? No. I did not make up my own God. God gives everyone a chance. And yes it is a choice. Calvinists can use all the logic and reasoning they want. My faith is based on the straight forward in context reading of the word of God.
Again I would like to say I was neither defending, nor opposing POD. Merely saying it is not our place to judge them. The last post I made was mainly an answer to the people who answered my first post.
I believe I have made my case in both ways very strong. I have used ample in context correctly quoted scripture. I need not argue this anymore. God love POD and He loves you. We should all try to do the same. As Jesus said love fufills the WHOLE law. “Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Matt. 22:34-41
Jesus loves every man, woman, girl, and boy:)
This is isaiah, signing off
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Isaiah ~
You are right, we are not to judge them based on salvation. BUT, we are to base our judgments righteously on their words and their actions.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13 explains it enough.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (New American Standard Bible)
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
~David T
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It’s funny to me how we cannot say that a person is not saved but, we have no problem saying that someone is saved because they have said a prayer, been baptized, talk about Jesus, talk about God, got to church on Sunday, give money to the needy, etc…
I think I might have to make a blog post about that.
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shane,
DO IT!
You are spot on.
…and I will not tolerate your intolerance. 😉
Blessings,
– Jeff H
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Isaiah,
You say God loves P.O.D.; yes, He does. BUT, if they aren’t saved, as is evidenced by their lives { the doctrine of regeneration is all but non-existent in American churches} does that mean God will not punish them for their sins? Will He let them through the gate simply because He loves them?
As for the passage ‘choose whom you will serve’, again you take out of context a verse. Read Ephesians 2:1, you, who were what? DEAD in trespasses! How is a dead man able to choose that which he cannot/will not respond to? Read on in that passage, ‘hath He quickened’, God miraculously brings to life a dead sinner. Is it because the sinner ‘chooses’ Him? Not according to God’s word.
Shane has made a valid point, we cannot say someone isn’t saved, but we boast and brag all day long how many ‘choose’ Jesus.
Also read carefully the passages provided by David T…how are we to remove the wicked man from among us if we do not first inspect his fruit? Or is this a passage you kick to the curb?
lyn
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I read the links you put and read some of the conversation and from what I see they are like those Christians that haven’t given up their old life they say they are but theres no true fruit in their actions which really sucks from what I read they don’t understand god at all. Defiantly will pray for them
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I have wondered about the images of artwork on their cd’s, but I have no problem with them using the trinity symbol as many christian organization use it. As far as their lyrics are concerned, I am not acquainted with a lot of their new music, but just recently bought their first cd, it is very openly christian, just look up some of the songs on the cd and read the lyrics. I enjoy this band, although I am sorry to see many Christian bands fall into touring with secular bands, and becoming mainstream, I feel that they can still have an impact on many people. And just for any how, I think that I may have read that someone said that Jah isn’t even in the bible… They are incorrect, if you pick up a King James Version, you know that one that NO ONE likes to read because it is too hard to understand… Check out Psalm 68:4 ” Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jah, and rejoice before him. This is a name for God, just a shortened form of Yahweh. For some reason the translators used a j instead of a y. Just think of hallelujah, that is a Hebrew phrase that means praise the Lord. Just a thought, I have never thought of Jah being a pagan God, or any thing like that, the rest of their songs speak for themselves as far as their faith is concerned. Romans 2 tells us that we are judged buy the measure of which we judge others by! Just saying, I have not felt bad listening to their music, in fact at times I have a great respect for what they say, in their song “If it Wasn’t for You”, they make many open remarks and answer many questions regarding their faith.
Do I believe in the resurrection of CHRIST?
And did HIS death bring forth new life?
And did HE raise up and bring back Lazarus from the grave?
And is there supposed to be a second coming?
Am I wrong because I’m wondering
why the fallen Babylon is up and alive today.
And do I really believe in the mark of the beast?
Cause he’s still dwelling up in my streets,
Strapped and ready to fight this war.
And he’s got more guns than you and me.
But most people don’t wanna believe,
That they still prejudice simply because we poor.
Do I believe that Mother Teresa was a angel on this earth?
And thou shall love thy neighbor even if he acts like you?
Do I believe in Heaven or Hell?
Shoot, hell yeah I do, cause we alive today,
And my crew is living proof.
If It Wasn’t For You
None of this would ever mean a thing
If It Wasn’t For You
Tell me why else would I believe?
Would I believe?
Do I believe that the rider of the white horse,
Is coming back for the righteous?
And the morning star keeps gettin brighter every day.
Is there such a thing as good and evil?
Still division amongst the people,
And we’re not all created equal just because you say.
Do I believe in the trinity, and will I live eternally?
Even though I’m not quite the saint that you claim to be.
Did Dr. Martin Luther have a dream?
Was Haile Selassie I a king?
And is it ok to sometimes feel a little bit confused?
Will armageddon never come?
I’m not perfect, just forgiven.
And I might just push back the next time you shove.
Do I believe in one God, one aim and destiny?
Just don’t forget your first love,
That’s what my moms use to tell me.
If It Wasn’t For You
None of this would ever mean a thing
If It Wasn’t For You
Tell me why else would I believe?
Would I believe?
If It Wasn’t For You
Then none of this is for nothing
It’s all for nothing!
It’s all for nothing!
It’s all for nothing!
More lyrics: http://www.lyricsmania.com/if_it_wasnt_for_you_lyrics_pod_payable_on_death.html
All about Pod Payable+On+Death: http://www.musictory.com/music/Pod+Payable+On+Death
That is just one song, there are many more. Maybe they do need prayer, but so do many people in church today, maybe we should stop worrying about this and let God handle it on Judgement day when He will divide the goats and the sheep. Jesus says that their will be many that will come to Him on that day and say “Lord, Lord” and He will say to them get away from me you working of iniquity… many spend too much time worrying about things like this, and don’t don anything real about it. Go out and witness to some one today, that is real work for the Kingdom.
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I am a 17 year old kid in my Junior year of High School, and I’ll be the first admit, I don’t act as I should as a child of God, and I don’t feed my soul (music I listen to, People I am around, etc. ) with good things, But I thought I was doing good now by listening to more of P.O.D. than anything else, until I did some research after a person commented on a YouTube video of one of P.O.D.’s song’s “Goodbye For Now” and he was asking if P.O.D. was in fact a Christian band. I was the first person to say “Yes, yes they were Christian band.” But then a person replied to me saying I was wrong and and told me look up more on P.O.D. and that brought me to this. And now I’m beginning to question the true Beliefs of P.O.D. So my question to anyone that will answer is, What are some good artists that put forth a good message, and practice it, unlike what P.O.D. does. I’m wanting to strengthen my faith in Jesus by changing what I feed my soul, I’m going to try read my Bible much more often, and definitely take much more than the 5-10 minutes to speak with God right before I fall asleep that I do, to talk with Him. I appreciate any advice, or links to music that would be better for me. Thank you.
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Brandon:
It’s great to hear you want to strengthen your faith in Jesus by changing what you feed your soul. I hope you realize that the only thing which feeds the Christian’s soul is the Word of God (Matt.4:4; 1 Pet.2:2). As we require several meals a day for our physical bodies, so likewise we must feed upon God’s Word daily (preferably several times a day at least, and not just little snacks). Then apply what we read to ourselves and practice it (daily). The more we do, the more we grow: in our walk with Christ, in our understanding of ourselves and our condition, and in our understanding of Him and His ways. There are no shortcuts, no substitutes. If you attempt to use music that you like (with “Christian” lyrics) to feed your soul, you will starve yourself to death. Sorry, I know that’s probably not what you wanted to hear. However, once the Word of God transforms you and your desires (through diligent daily study and practice), the Holy Spirit within guides and directs you to those things which are in harmony with Him and His Word. And He will direct you regarding the whole issue of music.
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David:
I thank you very much for the reply. I’ve read through what you’ve said at least 15 times, and I’ve finally realized something. At first I was a little confused because you did not reply with what I was wanting, but I re-read and realized that you replied with what I needed, not what I wanted. I just want to thank you for that. I’ve been struggling tremendously with how to live a better Christian life, and during High School right now, it is extremely hard to do so.
So again, thank you for the response. It’s what I’ve known all along, but I have tried to avoid it and substitute it.
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Brandon,
Thank you for the kind reply. It brings joy to my heart to hear your desire to follow the Lord. I will pray for you in your struggles, as I remember high school has it’s challenges. I encourage you to stay in His Word daily. Farewell.
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Regarding POD’s new album to be released in July, here is an excerpt from a review from Jesus Freak Hideout:
Very interesting . . . although I’m certain this behavior too will be excused away. After all, they’re just “keeping it real.”
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Well, here it is. From POD’s new song “I Am” from their new album Murdered Love:
And here is the actual song, with the first occurrence of the lyrics above beginning at 0:41.
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Pilgrim:
Would you be kind enough to put the link back up as it seems to be missing in the original comment below?
Bye the way, I just listened (in horror) to the .41 second clip you just posted. I’ll forward this (entire post) to our youth pastor with the hope that he might be aware of such filth. Hopefully none of our youth are involved in anything as godless and degrading as this!
Thanks, Rev-
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The links have been fixed.
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I used to love listening to P.O.D., until I found out that they worship Jah. There is a term that Rastafarians use “I and I”, meaning the person who is saying it, and Jah. You will see these terms used in one of their songs “I Am The Messen’jah’, BELOW
“I and I unfold the mysteries told From the futuristic realms to the days of old Make straight through the path of the one voice calling Truth shines, back again two times in the Second Coming
I, I am the Messenjah, I am the Messenjah I am the Messenjah, I am the Messenjah I am the Messenjah, I am the Messenjah I am the Messenjah”
Read more: POD – THE MESSENJAH LYRICS http://www.metrolyrics.com/the-messenjah-lyrics-pod.html#ixzz20RJGz6rl
Copied from MetroLyrics.com
I WOULD ALSO RECOMMEND THAT YOU VISIT THE CHURCH SITE THAT EXPLAINS THEIR BELIEFS IN TOTAL DETAIL; INCLUDING THEIR BELIEF ABOUT “ZION”.
beloved, beware!!!
CHURCHOFJAH.ORG
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Psalm 68:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jah, and rejoice before him.
I would venture to say once again that this is where POD gets the name they use for God…It is biblical after all…I will admit that I have struggled with the new song I Am, but I find it unfair for people to jump the gun and call them evil or non christian…Remember what makes us a Christian to begin with….Faith in Christ alone!!! Nothing more, true that our outward actions are fruit of our faith in Christ, but they are not what saves us. If they were not a Christian band, and had an agenda to fool everyone in thinking they are, I think that Sonny would have no part in the Whosoevers, or ministry to youth…Why would he waste his time putting up a front for almost 20 years??? Just seems to be crazy to me, not really for money since they have hit mainstream, and have plenty of non christian fans as well as christian.
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I understood exactly what you were saying when you said after becoming a Christian you threw away your secular music, and after really becoming a Christian you threw away your Christian music. That’s where I am today.
At first I was so excited to see heavy metal guys turning Christian. I tried to turn my non-Christian husband on to their music. Tried to get him to listen to Red. He didn’t want any part of it. Thank goodness.
As I prayed and read God’s word more regularly, their music started to bother me. I started listening to the lyrics on my WOW CD. Skillet sang, “it’s my life and I’ll do what I want”. I thought, that’s weird. My life is God’s, I want to do what He wants. I began checking lyrics and found out many were actually very, very dark. These band members look very dark. The websites look dark and creepy – which the Facebook fans think is awesome, when reading their comments.
Sonny Sandoval from P.O.D. is with the Whosoevers. So Is Brian Head Welch and his new band Love and Death with a member from Demon Hunter. Their websites are very dark. There’s a facination with skulls, skeletons, zombies, pictures of demons. A poster above commented on P.O.D promoting rebellion. That’s what the Whosoever’s blog, songs, etc., promote. Hardness, rebellion, darkness, scariness. The site selling their clothing line has the models all looking hard and tough. Where is the joy in their eyes? They say they have to do this to reach kids. You have to use evil images to attract kids to Christ? If kids are from tragic backgrounds, why would they want more violence and darkness? Why all the occult symbolism on their website and blog?
They say kill your Religion. Murder your flesh. A piece of artwork on their blog says Kill Your Enemy.
It’s very interesting that they say Kill Your Religion only to lead kids to their religion. The Bible says stay away from all appearance of evil. The Bible says friendship with the world in enmity with God. This is all totally ignored by this ministry when asked by the few fans that notice something wrong.
When a blogger pointed all of this out, their fans reacted very strongly and the anger, name calling, intimidation – the comments with cursing were left off.
One of the members of this ministry said in an interview when asked how to reenergize the kids for religion – the response was a new mindsent and brought up the song “Die Religion Die”, and then he said it’s a personal relationship with Jesus – Jesus said the kingdom of God is within.
Is this the new age christ they are really bringing kids to?
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My comment was never posted.
😦
why?
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What comment was it Justin?
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Was a while back. Maybe something went wrong. Maybe it just didn’t get through. I will try again soon. Thanks for the response.
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Justin, sometimes we do not approve comments that are snarky or straw man arguments that do not deal with the merits of the article. It just invites fights and arguments. If it was anything like that, we may have not approved it. However, submit your comment and I will take a look. If you have some specific issues with the article, good or bad, please address them on their merits. (Not insuiating you would not do that, but it is one of the reasons we do not approve comments, so thought it may help).
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I understand. I basically said stuff concerning a comment that guitars and such instruments are ungodly. Someone said harps and organs are Godly. (Forgive me, this was a while ago, and I am rushed right now) I stated that they are no more godly or ungodly, unless someone went into Heaven and came back with harps and organs. They are all man-made instruments. As for POD being Rasta, by calling God “Jah”, Psalm 68:4 in the kjv. refers to the Lord as JAH. Forgive me, if anything sounded snide. I love conversations like this. When we disagree, it gives both parties a chance to grow, if we approach it from the right angle. I cannot recall the rest. I will have to reread when I catch a moment. Thanks again. GOD bless
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This was the post in its entirety. I had forgotten that I saved it.
Comments were made regarding “You cannot take something from the world, and slap ‘Jesus’ on it. You cannot make Christian metal/rock/etc any more than you can make christian porn. They say God made music, so it is good. But He also made sex, but it can be twisted. Therefore you cannot say rock is good, by “God made music”
I see where you are coming from, but this is flawed reasoning. God made music. Music is good. God made sex. Sex is good. The difference is that God gave specific guidelines for when sex is good. He did this because sex is a physical & spiritual union, not to waste. He did not give these guidelines for music. Music is good. You taint it, by implemented evil words, because words are power.
“Why is it so many professing Christians want to take things that originated in the world, tweek this and that, and presto! It’s now God honoring and bona-fide ‘Christian! Rock and roll got its name from illicit, immoral sexual acts in the back seat of a car! Does anyone REALLY think that slapping the Holy name of Jesus on something with such an origin is truly God honoring? Or is it more a case of some not wanting to let go of the world?”
Well…you also can’t take something that the human who was responsible for naming the genre decided to corrupt, as a means to call the art itself corrupt. We give Satan too much power & respect by doing that. We must stop gifting the devil with this midas touch.
Besides, traditional hymns weren’t exactly made by stepping into Heaven and bringing this means of art with us upon our return. By your own logic, these are also of the world.
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Personal relationship means personal, forcing personal convictions on others isn’t what it’s about, everyone is gona see the bible different Jesus is the only way and thats the foundation but GOD used and continues to use pod to reach people 😀 so be cool everyone
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Forcing personal convictions? How is pointing out what Jesus says in the Bible forcing personal convictions? It’s not personal opinions – it’s from the Bible – what God says. These heavy metal rockers are pushing their personal convictions on people, tickling people’s ears, delivering things that are not in the Bible – but that’s OK. God is pretty clear in the Bible when he says for Christians to not be a part of the world – friendship with the world is enmity with God. James 4:4. So being of the world to ‘reach the unreachable’ is going against God. If ‘the unreachable’ don’t want the Jesus of the Bible, it’s because of rebellion and sin – they don’t want sound doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3
Sonny Sandoval’s partner in The Whosoevers, Mr. Welch, has been quoted in a heavy metal magazine saying he curses God when things don’t go his way:
” I still believe in Christ, it hasn’t been easy. There’s been heated, argument prayers with all kinds of F-bombs and stuff with God because I thought some things would be better than they were now, but I still believe. I totally believe, ya know. Sometimes if I step back I think “Man, if somebody saw me right now…” I’m talking to myself in a room to this God that noone can see, and I’m cursing at him. So I’d look like I belong in a looney bin. (laughs) But that’s what the life of faith is, it’s to believe in the unseen.” http://www.away-team.com/metal/2012/05/08/brian-head-welch/
How can you have Jesus Christ as your savior and curse God? P.O.D. and all the heavy metal ‘christian’ bands are taking you to another Jesus. Please don’t be so deceived.
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What exactly is the problem that you are having with Christian metal? I am still trying to understand the stance. Welch actually said that he curses at God. Not that he curses God. He has very dark struggles, and is new in his journey? Besides, we all curse God by any form of disobedience.
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Dear Justin, The problem with Christian heavy metal is that is does not teach the true gospel. It leads you to another Jesus.
If you read and believe the Bible, you learn that in all circumstances give thanks to God. I Thessalonians 5:18 Philippians 4:6-7 says: 6 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. 7 If you do this, you will experience God’s peace, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.
When you read the many stories in the Bible about people who loved God they never cursed at him. Job had everything taken from him. He continued to trust God. He never cursed Him. God is Holy and righteous. Who are we to think we should tell God what to do? Things aren’t what I want, so I will curse at God? There’s no respect, no reverence in that.
BHW says it’s OK to curse at God and his fans believe it and defend it. Even though it goes against the Bible. That’s just one example.
Please let me tell you that I grew up loving heavy metal. Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Pink Floyd. . .Went to concerts: Aerosmith, Skid Row, Ratt, Poison, Cinderella, David Lee Roth ……. I was very self destructive for many, many years. Rebellious – and it almost killed me. Jesus Christ delivered me and as I trusted in Him and read his word, something happened. I started changing. Everything looks different. You begin to see the world as Jesus Christ sees it. The Bible says we have the mind of Christ. We are a new creature. The Bible says we are given the Holy Spirit as we obey Jesus Christ and trust in Him. When you have this spirit, the things of this world do not appeal to you anymore. The Christian heavy metal rockers are not telling people that.
The Bible says friendship with the world is enmity with God. To use worldly things to ‘reach the unreachable’ goes against the Bible. God warns us of many things in the Bible and we need to pay attention. Distorting the gospel to reach people does not lead them to the truth. I want the truth. The only way to get that is from reading the Bible.
The Christian heavy metal bands talk about Jesus, just like false ministers do. They say the name Jesus a lot, but it’s not the Jesus of the Bible. The Bible warns of people who preach another Jesus. They will be accursed. Justin, who do you want to follow? Jesus Christ or man?
I’m praying for you 🙂
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Sure cursing at God maybe wrong. I am not sure he is glorifying it, as opposed to admitting this flaw in his life. Like I said, he is a new Christian. Whether or not some of them are evil, maybe even a lot, why would this make metal, as a form of music to blame? I am hoping for an answer to my last post as well, when someone finds time. Thanks for the prayers. I know I could use some. I am praying for you too, sister. 🙂 Love you
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Hi Justin 🙂
The attitude behind metal, the spirit behind metal is anger, aggression, depravity, self destruction, hatred of God, glorification of Lucifer, hell, darkness, death, the occult, witchcraft – sex, drugs rock & roll. All things that put you in spiritual bondage and lead to death.
I see Christian heavy metal bands displaying these same things and that’s so wrong. The symbolism they use says a lot. It takes on a whole new meaning when you see how important symbols are to the occult world. Read for yourself what prominent occultists/Luciferians say about symbols.
Jesus Christ is none of those things.
I have a long-time friend. She’s not saved. She’s still into heavy metal. Loves Ozzy Osbourne. She thinks ‘Christian’ metal is very strange. My non-christian friends see something wrong with it, but Christians defend it so fiercely sometimes.
It’s a strange day we live in where a christian heavy metal album cover looks the same as say a Metallica, Megadeth, Incubus, Anthrax, etc. We’re called to be different from the world. 🙂
Did you ever see The Decline of Western Civilization, The Metal Years?
Like it says: It’s more than music – it’s a way of life.
Take care
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If you take cursing at God in the context of asking “Why is this happening?”, then although it seems counter-intuitive, that shows that you are struggling to understand God, or to become stronger in your faith. It’s when bad things happen, and you don’t respond, that you are more likely to fall away.
To put it another way: Most of us as at one time or another got angry with our parents for not letting us do what we wanted. Our parents were doing it for our own good (in most cases). If they had let us: stay up late, hang out with bad people, get drunk/do drugs, sleep with our boy/girlfriend, etc… then they would have been harming us. I have yelled at God many times for letting xyz happen to me. With regard to some of those things, I have realized many years later that it made me a stronger, smarter, more caring person. For example: My father was abusive to me & my mother until the courts forced her to choose him or me. They divorced, & she took out her anger on me and my 2 younger brothers. I swore every day that I would NEVER abuse my children. My daughter is almost one, & there have been times that I got angry. She grabs things she shouldn’t, she sometimes bites, she won’t eat her food, etc… At those times, my mother’s reaction comes to mind, and I decide to act calmly. I have never yelled at her, or hit her. I hope and pray that I never do.
So, yelling and screaming at God is not always a bad thing. You may be angry at God, but being angry with Him means you have not lost your faith.
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Thanks for the reply, Elaine. Symbolism is a complex thing. I saw it mentioned that you should use no symbols to represent God. What about the cross? The Scripture says to make graven images of nothing at all. If you do not take this passage as to simply mean you shouldn’t make images to worship, you would have to say you cannot make any images of anything. No pictures, carvings, etc of family, animals, no paintings and all. The thing with symbols is that even good ones become perverted by St
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Thanks for the reply, Elaine. Symbolism is a complex thing. I saw it mentioned that you should use no symbols to represent God. What about the cross? The Scripture says to make graven images of nothing at all. If you do not take this passage as to simply mean you shouldn’t make images to worship, you would have to say you cannot make any images of anything. No pictures, carvings, etc of family, animals, no paintings and all. The thing with symbols is that even good ones become perverted by Satan. The cross was once a representation of death. The inverted cross was to show the humility of discipleship. The tables have turned on these two symbols.
While anger & aggression is displayed in metal, the others are not quite true. Anger is holy when channeled properly. Righteous anger. Aggression shows passion, not always violence. Every genre of music can be twisted, be it metal, opera, organs, harps. They are all instruments of the world. We use our resources to glorify God. Screaming is also a great way to vent. Sorry for the partial post. My computer is weird sometimes. 🙂
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Justin, All I can say at this point is, when doing what God wants becomes more important than what you want to do, it will become very clear. If you keep reading your Bible, praying, If you really want God to show you, He will. You sound just like me when I was young in rationalizing heavy metal. 🙂
In reading what Sonny Sandoval had to say above – all God wants is for us to love him. So deceiving. It’s so much more than that. They are leading kids down the wide road. The CCM crowd is tied in with mysticism, ecumenism, new age beliefs – turning you from sound doctrine, bottom line.
I like what Pilgrim said above: Tired of the rampant Biblical ignorance and utter contempt for all things holy.
That sums up Christianity today from what I see around me.
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Honestly, I work a bit differently.
I am trying to rationalize how metal is evil? I am constantly in scripture, & genuinely see nothing that would say any particular style of music is evil. I wish you guys wouldn’t jump the gun on me, and say that I am just trying to justify something. It reminds me of the corrupt youth leaders of my past who called me rebellious because they didn’t have the answers. I am not saying you don’t have the answers, but dismissing everyone as brainwashed is manipulative. I am going to need scripture that shows that certain types of music are evil. At least a hint or implication. I know what you mean about Christianity summed up today by hatred for truth & contempt for Holy. I see it on both sides of the coin. Christians who preach the perverted gospel of “just shut up & believe because I said so” & the camp “christians” who go around having sex & flirting with sin. Please, if you do have answers, I am requesting in all sincerity that you help me out. Show me I am wrong. Don’t just call me ignorant. That is vanity. I seek holiness always. If you are the iron to sharpen the iron that is me, do so for the glory of God.
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The flaw in the approach is that everybody uses the same arguments to support their views in the escapist version of christianity. Something conflicts with some system they made, so they peg it evil. The response I get all over the board is pretty much “if you study your bible, you would know”
The Catholics say this against Protestants. The Protestants say this against the Catholics. Shoot, Atheists even use this against Christians. Christianity has become so deluded by fear, most people just do not know which way is up, so they compile their own personal variables for evil to look like they are at a holier level than other christians. We as Christians must defend & contend for the faith, and stop guilt-tripping others into agreeing with a stance that we are incapable of defending by saying “Go read the bible”. Please do not take this as being belligerent, as I am simply addressing the flaw of the approach at play here, & how it seems like a scapegoat statement. I love you all. All of this considered now, please do continue.
In Christ
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Hi Justin. Didn’t mean to upset you, but you sound just like me when I was younger. I said the same things to my mom when I was in high school trying to get her to buy me Black Sabbath albums. I say albums, so you know that was a looooong time ago! I remember the day I wanted Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. When she saw the cover she freaked and said she wasn’t getting that one for me. Deep down I knew she was right beause the artwork looked so evil. But it still didn’t stop me from listening to heavy metal for years to come.
Seriously Justin I thought you were just pulling our chains because you cannot see metal as evil. All one has to do is look at their artwork and lyrics and way of life. It says it all. Rockers themselves have been quoted as saying rock and roll is from the devil. Rock and roll is sex. Aerosmith was my favorite band for a long, long time. I read theirr autobiography before surrendering to Jesus and even then reading about everything they did – I felt the heaviness, oppression, the darkness in my heart reading about it. I returned the book to the bookstore. I didn’t even want it in my house.
I say read the Bible because when you love God he speak to you through it. He changes you and you begin to see the world through His eyes. Justin, we know there is no Bible verse that says don’t listen to heavy metal. There is no Bible verse that says don’t watch porn. But we know what is good and pure and holy to God and the Bible says to think on those things. The Bible says to leave behind the sinful things. Loving God means you want to obey him. :-0
I know what you mean about the ‘camp Christians’ that flirt with sin. I know several people who says how they pray to Jesus, but they are drinking, cussing, reading porn, lying to get what they want, taking kids to R rated movies. They don’t show the fruit of the spirit.
Oops. Gotta go. 🙂
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Been thinking Justin – You said, “While anger & aggression is displayed in metal, the others are not quite true.”
Justin, Heavy metal rockers have tried so hard over the years to portray anger, aggression, rebellion, sexual depravity, their love of darkness, witchcraft, hatred of God. It’s all over their artwork, lyrics, what they say, how they live, how they dress. It just boggles my mind you say that’s not true.
What has happened to our youth? I was reading lyrics to a Family Force Five song and it was really weird and twisted. People were posting that it was about God’s love. So bizarre.
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Hi again. It’s Okay. I wasn’t really upset. Just disappointed. Thanks for continuing with me. 🙂
I definitely see that a lot of (even most) rock bands use evil imagery. I do not see how rock is to blames. The rockers can be blamed, yes. Rock & Roll was named after sex. But this is the fault of whoever named it. For example, if my mother chose to name me Satan, that would not mean that I am evil. That would be unfair to me, to be condemned for my name that I was given.
Porn is not mentioned as a sin, but looking at a woman in lust, is. There are guideline in scripture that says porn is a sin, without using the word, porn. That is obvious. Yes, metalheads have made a reputation to look angry, and all that you have mentioned. Perhaps it is even true that evil people created metal. But these people should not be given the midas touch, that signifies that since they touched it, or even discovered it, we should not. Most of the music that is played traditionally in hymns is taken from songs that once had evil lyrics. No genre is safe from evil pollution. This is where I have a problem seeing one imperfect art form as more evil than another imperfect art form.
I agree, Family Force 5 songs are not Christian. I think you are talking about “Love Addict”, correct? 🙂
Thanks again,
Love, Eternal
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Hi Justin – For me, several years ago, I decided I wanted to know God better and started reading the Bible asking Him to show me what He wanted me to know. One of the things that happened was that heavy metal was hard for me to listen to. I found I don’t like it anymore. My husband of ten years is not saved. He likes his heavy metal. It’s a strange thing, but it almost hurts to have to hear it now. It’s the spirit behind it. He’s not too happy that I’ve changed, but he is supportive, so that’s good. Every now and then, though, he ridicules my faith and gives me a hard time, but that’s OK. He got really upset the day I told him P.O.D. was a ‘christian’ band. He was adamant about the fact that they are not. I told him he’s right. 🙂
Many Christian rockers say that secular bands are an influence which bothers me. Like the Beatles – but they were pretty up front about their contempt for Christ and embrace of eastern religion. The lead singer for Skillet says Motley Crue and Metallica are his favorite 80s bands. They’re a couple of the more overtly Christ-hating, wicked bands of the 80s. We have to be so careful about what we put in our minds, what we listen to and see. The world is getting more twisted every day. The emergent church, seeker churches, all use rock music and they are also very busy keeping you from Jesus Christ of the Bible. You are right, no genre is safe. The other day I was wondering, what am I supposed to listen to? I’m glad you love the Lord, and that you are asking questions trying to figure things out.
Pilgrim, thank you for an excellent article about P.O.D. I have friends who are into ‘christian’ heavy metal and it’s not helping them. It’s turned them further from Jesus Christ and more into the world. They believe the lie that all you have to do is believe, so they can do whatever. Their sins are covered because God is so loving and nonjugmental. I am the weirdo – the Bible believer. 🙂
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P.S. Justin – I don’t remember which Family Force song it was.
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This seems, to me that God has lead you away from rock music, because of your experiences with it. Seems that it had become an idol in your life. There are connections between you and the art that needed to be severed due to something in your life. Thus, I commend you for severing the ties. Much respect for that. But there are other things that are not necessarily evil, that we start to put above Him. We can even idolize hymns. haha. I even shaved my head one time. Why? Because God showed me that I was, in a sense worshiping my hair. He was right! My whole life, I would fear becoming bald one day. “Ah! I couldn’t live without my hair!” One day, God told me that I am idolizing it. I was shocked. I never thought of that. So I instantly did what I called “Slaying Dagon”. I killed my own false god, by shaving my hair. It has grown back now, but the god is no longer in it. If I slip back, I will certainly go for a round two.
I have a question. Is it only rock music that you say is inherently evil, or are others, like country, opera, etc. What constitutes evil sound?
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I like what David said above: “However, once the Word of God transforms you and your desires (through diligent daily study and practice), the Holy Spirit within guides and directs you to those things which are in harmony with Him and His Word. And He will direct you regarding the whole issue of music.”
That’s it in a nutshell. That’s why we say to read the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to show you. It’s better to get your guidance from the Holy Spirit rather than people. 🙂
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This is what I am saying. I believe God may really be leading you, personally away from it. I have a strong bond with God. If such a thing were evil, I would know by now. I read the Bible. I stay connected with Him. I see Him in it. I converse with God all day long. He replies. If you are going off what brings you harmony with the Holy Spirit, I still see that it is the case of it not bringing harmony to you in your walk. How do you know that it is The Walk to cut the music out?
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When I look at christian heavy metal artists they try to look so hard. So dark. Rebellious. Using symbols that represent death – like zombies. Zombies are so popular right now with christian rockers. In Deuteronomy rebellion is the same as witchcraft. I wonder, where is the joy in their eyes? Why do they wear the same eye makeup as Ozzy? Why do they want to look just like the world? A world that extols rebellion, depravity and self-destruction? We aren’t of the world. Christian heavy metal brings people to the world, not to Jesus Christ. I see it in my friends who listen to christian heavy metal. I see the fruit – cussing, drunkenness, telling dirty jokes . . . . .. Surrendering to Jesus Christ, trusting him is not rebellion, hardness and darkness. They are projecting the opposite of what Jesus Christ is. People who love the world will love christian heavy metal. Another strong influence according the lead singer of Skillet is Bon Jovi who sings about It’s my life. Skillet sings: It’s my life and I’ll do what I want. When you surrender to Christ you want to do what He wants. But they are singing it’s THEIR life – and they’re gonna do what they want. Rebellion. Walking with Jesus Christ is not rebellion, darkness, hardness, death. 🙂
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About what constitutes an evil tone – Black Sabbath used metal to produce evil tones – like their song Black Sabbath. I don’t think using any other music type would allow them to do that. 🙂
I just read on News4themasses, the headline of her blog today: Culture of death + Post Apostate Church generation = No fear of the Lord or consequences of their actions.
So right on.
I look at the christian heavy metal guys looking so hard, dark, rebellious, using images of skulls, zombies, skeletons (sometimes more than secular heavy metal – I can’t tell the two apart). They use these images of death and goth culture = death culture. Mix that with the apostate church of today that says you can do whatever you want, Jesus died for your sins, just ask him into your heart – that’s all you have to do. Add some contemplative prayer and other new age methods that lead you further away from the Jesus Christ of the Bible, and people have no fear of the Lord.
I see it when Welch curses at God – not because he’s going through some dark period in his life – he said it was because he thought things would be better than they were. That’s it. And there is no fear of the Lord. No reverence for God. His holiness is trampled. Their use of symbols of death, occult symbols, totally mocks God. Hebrews 10:29-31 talks about people who treat the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. And what kind of medium do they chose for their music – metal.
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I was really sad to see Sean and Justin sticking up for Welch cursing God. You have Welch, who has been delivered from drug addiction, still doing his music, and when he thinks some things would have been better than they were, he curses God. He didn’t say he was going through some dark time – just that he thought some things would have been better. That’s it? That’s all it takes to curse God? After God just delivered him from the pit? Really?
What about Philippians 4:6-7: 6 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. 7 If you do this, you will experience God’s peace, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.
Or 1 Thessalonians 5:18 – Be thankful in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you who belong to Christ Jesus.
If he curses God over thinking things could be better because he’s a new Christian – why haven’t any Calvary Chapel pastors talked to him about this? I say Calvary Chapel because the Whosoevers are based out of Calvary Chapel. Ryan Reis’ dad is Raul Reis. They hold concerts at Calvary Chapels. Or any pastor? The state of our churches is truly apostate when cursing God is condoned, excused.
But it’s part of being rebellious. Again, the fruit of christian heavy metal – rebellion.
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Aw
It was not my intention to make you sad. Are you okay?
I was not sticking up for Welch. Cursing God is never a good thing. He was using what has been labeled “curse words”. Mere words that someone else decided to deem offensive. That is how I feel on those words. He may not have said that he was going through hard times, but he is Brian Welch. He has a very haunting past. It can be assumed that he has dark times in his new found faith. Has my zombie reply been deleted?
There is darkness in the walk with Christ, but faith & joy in that darkness.
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Justin – I have had some comments get shunted into the spam box recently. It may have gotten deleted by accident. Our apologies.
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OK. Thanks for the heads up.
I will redo it, when I get a free moment. Today is a busy one. Happy Christmas, all.
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No problem, I recall seeing one of yours in there. I was sure I had pulled it out, but the wrong button may have gotten hit. Apologies for any inconvenience.
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POD is coming to an area bar in my neighborhood and I have been searching for information that helps me understand what the band believes. it all seems a bit confusing. It leads me to ask, “is my life confusing to others?”, “If I had my own website, would it be EVIDENT that Jesus is my King?”. I guess for me, and that is the only person I get to decide for, I need fed by those who proclaim JESUS clearly-why wouldn’t you!!:)
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In the link below you have it spelled out for you directly from Brian Welch, a Whosoever along with Sonny Sandoval from P.O.D., what their belief is. Their actions have shown it, but here you have it spoken so there’s no denying it.
http://www.sixxsense.com/player/?station=SIXX-PR&program_name=podcast&program_id=SIXX_interviews.xml&mid=22837386
In this radio interview Welch talks to Nikki Six from Motley Crue. Welch says it’s about doing what you want to do. It’s about being yourself. He says it’s not about pleasing ‘the almighty God’ because he did it all for us, so lighten up.
This, of course, directly contradicts the Bible which tells us to be holy – not be ourselves. We are to be sanctified and grow to be like Christ – not be ourselves. As a Bible believer who loves Jesus Christ, I want to do his will, not mine.
Their ministry is another gospel. A gospel that will cause you to be lost.
Welch has this mutual admiration thing going with Nikki Sixx of Motely Crue a band that strives to look as wicked and decadent as possible.
So now that we have heard what they believe the use of all the occult symbolism makes sense. It fits. They are worshiping themselves, doing what they want do do. Being themselves. Honoring the god of this world.
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Guys, when someone has it in their mind that someone is evil, they will be inclined to highlight the flaws in order to incriminate others. When you listen to his whole statement, he never said it is not about pleasing God. He was speaking of the ritualistic cultural christianity of the “church”. The Empire of darkness has become baptized into the church. That is what we all should fight. He is not God. I am not God. You all are not God. If you, me, or anyone else were being observed under such a huge microscope as he is, we would all be demonized by our “brothers and sisters” as well. We are called to be ourselves. You guys believe that too, according to my understanding. You just word it differently. You guys say “we shouldn’t be ourselves, but what God calls us to be”. He (and I) say “Who we are without Christ, is NOT our truest selves. We are to be ourselves as unique instruments of God. Some of the things we do, may freak you out. Some of the things you do may freak us out. That does not make either of us evil. It makes us all a band of knucklehead brothers and sisters. Ie we fight each other like kids. Why? Because we are imperfect. What our focus should be is on putting our sibling rivalry aside, and glorify the Father. Another note to mention is that we ALL are guilty of wording things wrong, making condemnation from others easier. Things can be taken a way not intended, especially if we worded it horribly. We need to try to imagine the people who worry us, as Godly, then do research, because our preconceived bias will ALWAYS be scales on our eyes when we “KNOW” someone is a devil. If you truly research, you will conclude, I imagine that the vast majority of symbols ect that you all utilize is just as occult oriented as anything these guys use. We all are flawed. We become further flawed when we are at each others throats. Instruments are instruments. They are ALL of the world. Even harps and organs. Our voices (that is our flesh) is part of the world, as is everything physical. If we harp on that, all we are left to do is live in spiritual straight jackets, in a spiritual padded room, rocking back in forth trying to ignore our surroundings. Once again, I love you guys.
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Dear Justin. Praying for you. Praying that you will have blessings and strength today.
I’m hearing that phrase ‘God calls us to be ourselves’ a lot lately it seems. If you read the Bible, God calls us to be like Christ. God calls us to be holy as he is holy.
I Peter 1:15-16 We are called to be holy. I Thessalonians 4 – God calls us to be holy. 2 Timothy 4:5 We are called to have a clear mind and not be afraid to suffer. 2 Timothy 2 We are called to turn from wickedness. Romans 8:29 We are predestined to be conformed to His likeness. I John 2:5-6 we are called to live our lives as Christ did. Titus 3:1 We are called to be obedient and ready to do what is good I Peter 4:2 We are anxious to do the will of God. II Peter 3:11 We are called to live holy godly lives. Colossians 3:17 we are called to be a representative of the Lord Jesus. Colossians 3:10 We have a new nature. Mark 3:33-34 The true family of Jesus is anyone who does God’s will. 2 Peter 3:18 grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:2 Don’t copy the behavior and customs of the world, but let God transform you into a new person. Hebrews 5:9 Jesus is the source of eternal salvation to those who obey.
I can’t do any of those things if I’m being myself. It seems to me that people who want to live in the world use that phrase. Someone who wants to drink and curse and party isn’t going to say “God calls us to be like Christ”, they are going to claim that God calls us to be ourselves to condone what they are doing. I know someone who is living in the world and she posted that very statement – God calls us to be ourselves.
Galatians 1:8 says if anyone teaches you another gospel they will be under God’s curse.
If you tell people that as a Christian it’s about doing what you want and being yourself, then that is another gospel. I’m sure satan would love for you to believe that God calls you to be yourself to keep you doing your will instead of God’s.
Welch said: Religion is about you have to do this you have to do that – they say it’s about pleasing the almighty God. But he did everything for us so lighten up.
But it is about pleasing God. The Bible tells us to find out what pleases God. Ephesians 5:10.
God changes our hearts and we want to please him. He gives us the strength and the will to please him.
Why do people who say they love Jesus love the darkness? What is there to love about symbols that represent Lucifer? Symbols that represent death when Jesus is not death, he is life? I know a number of people in the new age movement and they deny evil, too. If we love our brothers and sisters we must tell the truth. God bless.
Dear Justin. Praying for you. Praying that you will have blessings and strength today.
I’m hearing that phrase ‘God calls us to be ourselves’ a lot lately it seems. If you read the Bible, God calls us to be like Christ. God calls us to be holy as he is holy.
I Peter 1:15-16 We are called to be holy. I Thessalonians 4 – God calls us to be holy. 2 Timothy 4:5 We are called to have a clear mind and not be afraid to suffer. 2 Timothy 2 We are called to turn from wickedness. Romans 8:29 We are predestined to be conformed to His likeness. I John 2:5-6 we are called to live our lives as Christ did. Titus 3:1 We are called to be obedient and ready to do what is good I Peter 4:2 We are anxious to do the will of God. II Peter 3:11 We are called to live holy godly lives. Colossians 3:17 we are called to be a representative of the Lord Jesus. Colossians 3:10 We have a new nature. Mark 3:33-34 The true family of Jesus is anyone who does God’s will. 2 Peter 3:18 grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:2 Don’t copy the behavior and customs of the world, but let God transform you into a new person. Hebrews 5:9 Jesus is the source of eternal salvation to those who obey.
I can’t do any of those things if I’m being myself. It seems to me that people who want to live in the world use that phrase. Someone who wants to drink and curse and party isn’t going to say “God calls us to be like Christ”, they are going to claim that God calls us to be ourselves to condone what they are doing. I know someone who is living in the world and she posted that very statement – God calls us to be ourselves.
Galatians 1:8 says if anyone teaches you another gospel they will be under God’s curse.
If you tell people that as a Christian it’s about doing what you want and being yourself, then that is another gospel. I’m sure satan would love for you to believe that God calls you to be yourself to keep you doing your will instead of God’s.
Welch said: Religion is about you have to do this you have to do that – they say it’s about pleasing the almighty God. But he did everything for us so lighten up.
But it is about pleasing God. The Bible tells us to find out what pleases God. Ephesians 5:10.
God changes our hearts and we want to please him. He gives us the strength and the will to please him.
Why do people who say they love Jesus love the darkness? What is there to love about symbols that represent Lucifer? Symbols that represent death when Jesus is not death, he is life? I know a number of people in the new age movement and they deny evil, too. If we love our brothers and sisters we must tell the truth. God bless.
Dear Justin. Praying for you. Praying that you will have blessings and strength today.
I’m hearing that phrase ‘God calls us to be ourselves’ a lot lately it seems. If you read the Bible, God calls us to be like Christ. God calls us to be holy as he is holy.
I Peter 1:15-16 We are called to be holy. I Thessalonians 4 – God calls us to be holy. 2 Timothy 4:5 We are called to have a clear mind and not be afraid to suffer. 2 Timothy 2 We are called to turn from wickedness. Romans 8:29 We are predestined to be conformed to His likeness. I John 2:5-6 we are called to live our lives as Christ did. Titus 3:1 We are called to be obedient and ready to do what is good I Peter 4:2 We are anxious to do the will of God. II Peter 3:11 We are called to live holy godly lives. Colossians 3:17 we are called to be a representative of the Lord Jesus. Colossians 3:10 We have a new nature. Mark 3:33-34 The true family of Jesus is anyone who does God’s will. 2 Peter 3:18 grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:2 Don’t copy the behavior and customs of the world, but let God transform you into a new person. Hebrews 5:9 Jesus is the source of eternal salvation to those who obey.
I can’t do any of those things if I’m being myself. It seems to me that people who want to live in the world use that phrase. Someone who wants to drink and curse and party isn’t going to say “God calls us to be like Christ”, they are going to claim that God calls us to be ourselves to condone what they are doing. I know someone who is living in the world and she posted that very statement – God calls us to be ourselves.
Galatians 1:8 says if anyone teaches you another gospel they will be under God’s curse.
If you tell people that as a Christian it’s about doing what you want and being yourself, then that is another gospel. I’m sure satan would love for you to believe that God calls you to be yourself to keep you doing your will instead of God’s.
Welch said in the interview: Religion is about you have to do this you have to do that – they say it’s about pleasing the almighty God. But he did everything for us so lighten up.
But it is about pleasing God. The Bible tells us to find out what pleases God. You Ephesians 5:10. You don’t have to do it – you want to do it!
God changes our hearts and we want to please him. He gives us the strength and the will to please him.
Why do people who say they love Jesus love the darkness? What is there to love about symbols that represent Lucifer? Symbols that represent death when Jesus is not death, he is life? I know a number of people in the new age movement and they deny evil, too. If we love our brothers and sisters we must tell the truth. God bless.
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Dear Justin, As a Bible believer I believe what the Bible says – that we are called to be like Christ, to be holy, to obey God and do His will – Just like Jesus did. We are not called to be ourselves. I can’t do those things if I’m myself. 🙂
Telling people that as a Christian they can do what they want and be themselves, that’s a false gospel. 🙂 That’s not being flawed. That’s telling a lie to keep people from coming to Jesus Christ. Jesus said there would be ravenous wolves that would come in.
I was reading an interview Nikki Sixx was giving. He described Motley Crue and said he was proud of their image – I can’t repeat it because it’s all profanity. But I will repeat what he said about being not wanting to be tame or rightable and how it amazes him that one of their songs gets played on the radio. He asks, “Are you sure you’re listening to the lyrics? We’re not Bon Jovi. It’s a miracle; the whole thing’s a miracle.”
Here they are trying to be so wicked and raunchy and then it’s like no one notices and their song gets played on the radio. It’s almost funny if it weren’t so tragic. It’s like people don’t care about nasty lyrics, or are they just so desensitized that they can’t even discern evil anymore?
As a Christian, why would you want to be associated with that? II Corinthians 6:14 what fellowship does light have with darkness? When I was living for myself years ago I listened to Motley Crue and all kinds of heavy metal, but when Jesus comes in, the things of the world don’t look so great anymore. Jesus changes you and you don’t want it anymore.
Ephesians 5:10 Find out what pleases the Lord.
And that’s what you want to do. You don’t have to do it. You want to 🙂 That’s what gives you life. John 6
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Motley Crew and Nikki Sixx are not christians. Of course they are going to say all that. Once again, though he did not say do whatever you want. He did say “be yourself”. Without Christ, we cannot fully be ourselves. We were created to be holy, but born tainted with sin. We are not the sin. Sin is the disease. Sin is what stops us from being ourselves. Who Christ called us to be. But this seems more of one of those to-ma-to to mah-to deals. In this case, I think you are saying the same thing I am. I think we merely prefer one wording over the other. Neither is inherently wrong. As for the continual “metal is the world” thing, I feel I made a sustaining argument previously about how everything material that we do and use is of the world. Our voices are flesh. Harps are of the world. Pianos, organs, hymns, all of the world.
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I have my issues with all the symbolsm. I’ve just stopped supporting their music. I pray for them, like we all should. Question: when was the last time u prayed for a secular celebrity or a well known Christian? And u can’t judge CCM as a whole. Yes, a lot of bands r fake. In fact, many Christian artists and bands admitted that a lot of bands in CCM r fakes and frauds. However, not all of them are. Read the lyrics to a For Today song. They r metalcore. Read the lyrics to Lecrae’s songs. Search Lecrae- Don’t Waste Your Life. TobyMac- Forgiveness. Thi’sl- It’s not About Me. Andy Mineo- In My City. Trip Lee- Love on Display. A lot of Newsboys songs are soley about the gospel. KJ-52: will you ever know. I make sure the music I listen to is helpful in my walk. But something many CCM fans forget, JSon said that in no way should music replace the Bible.
God bless 🙂
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Then why does Welch want to hang out with Nikki Sixx? Why does Welch participate in the drunk in the spirit thing which is totally demonic?
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From what I’ve seen Christian heavy metal brings people to the world, not to Jesus Christ. They try to look hard like the world and be rebellious like the world and use the same old demonic/death symbols like the secular heavy metal with all the skulls, skeletons, one-eye symbolism. You can’t tell them apart from the worldy metal rockers.. I have a friend who I went to church with for years. She’s been into the Whosos for the last couple years. She now goes to bars and drinks alcohol and is free with the f word. I saw her change before my eyes. She will defend the Whosos but won’t defend the Bible because she won’t read it. She says it’s boring. I have heard Welch praise Motley Crue but I haven’t heard him say it’s important to read the Bible. I’ve read a lot of his interviews. He says ‘die religion’ but then he gives his own man-centered religion that people follow.
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Very true. Holiness is our destiny. It is written on our souls. If it is our destiny and written on our souls, that would make it who we are. Living for the world, being a party-monger, is not holiness. Not written on our souls/predestined. That is the choice to forsake who we were made to me. We cannot be ourselves on our own, because due to the fall, Lucifer doesn’t want us to know who we are. We, our true Godly selves, are warriors against Lucifer’s Kingdom. As for why he was hanging out with Nikki Sixx, the guy was interviewing him. Asking questions. He was answering. Are we to run from that? The cross can also be an evil symbol. It was until it was “adopted” into christianity. I will say, the one eye part is sketchy. I will give you that. That seems like Horus/ illuminati stuff. I don’t know where they were going with that, but my guess is that they made a simple mistake of thinking it is God’s eye. Most Americans think that. Just something else to learn. We are all doing something wrong.
And also, thanks for the prayers. While you are at it, I have a nasty cough. Your prayers in that regard would be appreciated. Thanks
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Justin, still praying for you. Please be aware that symbols are very important to the occult world. They are marking themselves with these symbols. I know a couple people in Wicca and symbols are so important and thought to have so much power that they will tattoo certain symbols on their body to attain these ‘powers’ or protection, whatever the symbol means.
As for the interview please listen to what was being said. Much admiration for each other going back and forth. Why so much admiration for someone so in the world?
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Oh yes. I agree the symbolism is very important. What I am trying to say is that the cross is also a symbol of death “Christianized” by the NWO agenda. These symbols are even on our Bibles, which is why we must be extra aware of these.
You can admire someone without admiring everything about them. Christians are not called to put themselves on a pedestal above worldly people. They are called to relate to them where they can, and preach the uncompromising gospel of The Christ. We are not called to step away from the world. We are called to be not of the world, but still in it, showing the light in the dark. If we hang out in the light all the time, those in the darkness will not see. If we only love those who love us, what is the point?
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Good points Justin. We are not called to be on a pedestal above worldly people, but we need to have discernment and be able to tell when the world is being presented over Jesus Christ. These ‘christian’ heavy metal rock stars bring people to the world. They teach that you just need to be yourself and that God accepts you as you are. Which are both straight out lies. Being yourself and believing that God accepts you as you are are man-centered beliefs, not Christ centered. These beliefs have you focus on yourself. We’re called to be like Christ. We are called to change, to be new creatures and leave the old life behind.
Brian Welch from Love and Death has reunited with Korn. Korn sings a lot of profanity and perverted lyrics. They sing these lyrics from a mic stand shaped like a naked woman.
Welch wrote about escaping that way of life and now he’s back in it? And now Christian Welch fans are going to Korn concerts. What a tragedy. 2 Peter 2:22 and Proverbs 26:11
People emulate their idols. One of my friends started cussing all over the place and then I figured out – Welch curses, he makes it ‘cool’ for a Christian to curse. So she’s copying their way instead of copying Jesus Christ, which the Bible calls us to do. P.O.D. has cuss words in one of their songs. Ryan Ries of the Whosoevers says they are being ‘raw for Christ’ to justify their cursing. They’re leading people to worldly behaviors when the Bible tells us to put aside course language.
They say Jesus with their lips but their hearts are far from him. Just look at the wicked looking artwork the Whosoevers promote on their blog. Mathew 15:7-12
When you are born again and the Holy Spirit changes you, the things of the occult and the things of this world are no longer appealing. These are things you want no part of anymore. Wallowing in it and promoting it is a huge red flag. We need to know when we are being misled.
Hope you are doing well.
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Okay. I certainly see the validity of your points on this note. Makes sense. I am not going to defend or rebuke Welch on his decision to rejoin Korn, because that part of his story, I don’t know his reasons. It could honestly go either way, and I pray that he doesn’t get caught back up in all that darkness. What the world calls “profanity” is a tricky subject. 1: I believe they are just words. There is nothing inherently good or bad. 2: I believe they should not be used very liberally if at all, because of the people that feel they are profane, and could stumble. 3: A word is not profane. Using a word to hurt someone is profane. I could satirically call someone pretty, while smirking as a way to hurt someone into feeling ugly. “Being raw for Christ”, I totally agree is a very oblivious means to justify profanity. I don’t see it sinful to be in a band of ungodly people. He grew up with those guys, and could be the light that they need, especially if he holds to his convictions. Think of it like this: While we are in our sinful ways, and angel could be with us, stirring waters, so to speak. Playing heavenly music to us, while we are running from God. Welch could use this to be the messenger stirring the waters and interceding on behalf of his lost friends and band-mates. I do worry that, as a somewhat new believer, he could get distracted once again by the lifestyle. I will continue to pray for the man.
Yes, Johnathan Davis has a horrid mic.
I listen to Korn, myself. It tells a story of darkness and despair. Reminders of my breakthroughs and faith shown in light of story characters who have not been redeemed. We need such stories (not saying we need it necessarily in the format of Korn) of people that are just as flawed as we are. We could be doing the same things they are, had Christ not rescued us. Everyone has a story that deserves to be heard.
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Hi Justin, Please don’t go by what the world thinks is profanity – what does the bible say? Ephesians 4:29
Then I think of 1John 4:5 They are of the world so the world listens to them.
The latest is a picture of Welch with Korn and Kiss promoting Hellfest. Welch is posting with his arms in an X with both hands making devils horns. Why would a true Christian makes salutes to satan and celebrate Hellfest? It’s being double minded. The bible says double minded people are unstable in all they do. James 1:8
Corinthians 5:10 We are Christ’s ambassadors.
We represent Christ. We are called to be separate and not a part of this world.
I have a hard time understanding why people who say they are Christians enjoy the things of this world. Korn has some pretty, like you said, dark lyrics full of despair – and profanity. I can’t stand to listen to them – it hurts my soul. It’s not glorifying to God. Knowing Jesus Christ is not darkness and despair – I cannot relate to that kind of music anymore. When I was lost I listened to heavy metal, went to heavy metal concerts, had boyfriends that played guitar in bands. I would not even want to hang out in the atmosphere ever again knowing what goes on. In the bible we are called to be holy and enjoying music of Korn, Kiss, all the secular bands Welch and P.O.D. associate with – goes against that. Kiss likes to look and act demonic – why would you want to hang out with that and celebrate Hellfest? Teaching kids that you can say Jesus with your lips and enjoy the decadence of the world is a very dangerous thing to do.
Welch’s story is a good one. One of warning and what not to do.
Welch cannot be interceding for the lost when he is spreading a message of do what you want – it’s not about pleasing God. That is a new age message. It’s all about you. YOU are god – do what thou wilt – comes to mind. And Nikki Sixx says people who don’t go along with Welch are in fear – another new age phrase. But then he endorses Eckhart Tolle.
Justin, they are showing you what they are really all about. They are not about glorifying Jesus Christ. They glorify anti-Christ. They are denying the call to be holy, to be separate, to hate evil.
Being born again changes you and you don’t want that life anymore.
There’s a verse – you can tell by their conduct that they are really enemies of the cross. Philippians 3:18
We need to be careful that we do not follow people who are really enemies of the cross.
Praying for them, the kids that follow them, my friends who follow them.
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Bible verses keep coming to my mind. I think of Paul speaking to the Galatians. In the Living Translation of the Bible he said: “As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that cross, my interest in this world has been crucified, and the world’s interest in me has also died.”
Because of the cross, Paul has lost all interest in the world, and the world doesn’t like him, either.
If someone says Jesus with their lips but love the world – we need to take a look at that.
Mathew 15:8. Jesus said, “They honor me with the lips but their hearts are far from me.”
We must look at things from the bible’s perspective, not the world’s.
Praying for you
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Ephesians 4:29 pretty much sums up what I just said about profanity. Unwholesome words. Please show me how that differs at all from what I just said.
The hand signs, like we have just covered, are one out of innumerable hand-signs that perhaps people do not understand. Like the evil symbol we call the cross. I don’t use the hand-sign, because I think it is rooted in darkness. Just like the cross, just like all of our “christian” symbols that have been adopted.
Please don’t gauge your Christianity based on what the “christianized” version of the world says it is, because they are liars too. I don’t look at things from the world’s perspective, because the world hates me.
And we enjoy things of this world, because it is what we have to work with. As I said before, everything physical is of this world. Harps, organs, pianos, our voices, and brains, all things of this world that can be used for good or evil.
Ignoring what the world has to say, will not help you or anyone. It is not just about us
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Justin, I keep seeing you come here and battle back and forth with these other people. Why are you doing this? You’ve been doing this for a little over a year now. Why not just let them talk and stay out of it? It feels like you are just going round in circles.
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I do this for the same reason you do this. For the same reason that they do this. For truth. For the questions unanswered. For unity and harmony with God and family. Because forums are a place to come together to learn and grow. We are invited to do such. Do you take offense? If so, why do you take offense? Am I to be blamed if I am not convinced of the statements within this article yet? I still have questions floating around in this thread that are unanswered. What am I to do with those? What are we, as a family to do with those? And lastly, what is the purpose of your inquiry?
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I do not take offense. I only inquire to understand the methods to this madness. I believe I would have given up after such a time of bickering within said family.
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Dear Justin,
I believe you want the truth. The best place to look for answers is in the Bible. If you pray and ask God to show you, he will. It’s all in his word. That’s the only place to find the truth. The world won’t give you the truth. When we are confused, the Bible is the best place to go.
Love in Christ
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May I speak with another member who has more experience/training? Nothing against you personally, but it usually takes a couple of months just to receive the same circle of answers that were already addressed, along with assumptions that I do not read the Bible a lot. Mam, I read the bible constantly, and every day. I have read it many many times over in my life. I have a direct line of communication open with God. He is always talking to me, and I am always listening and asking Him to show me my rights and wrongs. I live a lifestyle of fasting and prayer. I have been 15 days without food, being nourished by the word of God, which opened amazing doors for God to speak to me more.
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If you have seen”the beautiful”video by p.o.d… why is there that clown,demonic force folowing that kid
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Demonic clown force? What makes you think it is that?
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You can easily realize most bands whether they are sending a “christian message” or a demonic one. I believe POD sends a demonic message especially with a certain vocalist… if you listen to songs like “rockin with the best” they talk about themselves and how great they are. Their music has no backing in the bible or in christianity or in world issues. No positive messages, just some sort of release of their opinions and feelings but no emotion. Skillet on the other hand is a Christian rock band WITH a message, talent, and emotion. I don’t hate anybody, but once in awhile I get angry at people’s ignorance until I realize I am the one entertaining their ignorance.
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