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It’s all about Mary?

Fact or Fiction; Scripture or Tradition?

The following is an examination of fifteen of the most often used arguments by Roman Catholic adherents in their defense of their near deification of Mary, (along with a brief response to each argument). Each of the pictures in this post can be clicked on to enlarge.

Argument 1). Mary was blessed among women: FACT

Mary was blessed, however, so is every Believer. To make the leap that because Mary was blessed she should receive the adoration/veneration/worship that she’s given is not Scripturally logical. In fact, Scripture records the way Jesus handled the first attempt to elevate Mary’s status. In Luke 11:27-28 a woman in the crowd tried to draw attention away from Christ and to Mary (what the RCC has perfected) but Jesus corrected her saying, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it. “ (Luke 11:27-28). Also, Mary wasn’t/isn’t the only person blessed. See the Sermon on the Mount for a list of others who are “blessed” (Matthew 5:3-11).

Argument 2). Mary is worthy of/deserves our adoration and veneration: FICTION

No human is worthy of any amount of veneration or worship because we are all sinners (Psalm 14:3, Romans 3:23); we are to worship God and serve Him only (Matthew 4:10); and God will not give His Glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11).

Argument 3). It is permissible and acceptable to pray to Mary: FICTION

Mary was a human being and suffered the wages of sin–death (Romans 6:23) like everyone else. Scripture prohibits contacting, seeking out, consulting, and/or praying to the dead (Deuteronomy 18:11). It is called necromancy and it detestable to God (Deuteronomy 18:9, 12). Additionally, spiritists, sorcerers, and mediums (who seek to contact the dead) are also condemned by God

 

Argument 4). By bowing down and praying to Mary, Catholics are not worshipping her, just venerating her. In fact it is also permissible to make statues of her and bow down to them too: FICTION

The “veneration” and bowing down to statues is forbidden. It does not matter what you want to call something to make it more palatable, what matters is what God calls it. We can trivialize sin all day long (humans do it all the time) but God has made His commands very clear. I urge you to review all the pictures in this post (click on them to enlarge) and compare what you see—not with what you think and feel—but with what has been revealed in God’s eternal Word. I recommend starting with the 1st and 2nd Commandments found in Exodus 20:4-5.

Argument 5). Mary pleads our case to Jesus who would listen to His mother above us: FICTION

This same Jesus that supposedly obeys Mary’s petitions is the same Jesus who when told by Mary that “they have no wine” replied, “Woman, what does that have to do with us?” (John 2:3-4). She then tells the servants to do whatever Jesus commands.

The Scriptures paint an entirely different picture of the Jesus that supposedly can’t understand us mere humans, thus requiring Mary’s petitions. Hebrews 2:17-18 shows us of a merciful Christ who—being made like man—is able to the come to our aid because He too experienced the same temptations we do. Furthermore, it is Jesus who is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1-2), not Mary.

Argument 6). Mary is our Mediatrix, our co-redeemer with Jesus: FICTION

This RCC concept didn’t even emerge until the proclamation from Pope Benedict XV in 1922. But the date of its introduction matters little in contrast to how utterly blasphemous it is to even suggest this, let alone teach as if it’s the truth of God. This idea is in direct violation of God’s Word; Jesus is our advocate (1 John 2:1-2) and “there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus . . .” (1 Timothy 2:5) not Mary.

Argument 7). Mary was conceived without sin: FICTION

The idea of the “Immaculate Conception” proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854 has absolutely no foundation in the Scriptures. Even King David (a man after God’s own heart) proclaimed that He was conceived in sin and he was brought forth with iniquity (Psalm 51:5) just like every person ever born.


Argument 8). Mary remained sinless her entire life: FICTION

Those who say they have no sin are liars (1 John 1:8); no one does good, not even one (Psalm 14:3); each of us has turned to our own way (Isaiah 53:6); all have sinned (Romans 3:23). This includes Mary. There’s nothing found in Scripture to suggest otherwise. Anyone who claims Mary was sinless is basing this off of their opinion grounded in the purely mythical tradition of man.

Mary proved she was like everyone else (a sinner) when she brought her offering to the temple (Luke 2:24). This was a sin offering that Mary would not have been required to bring had she been sinless (Leviticus 5:11, 12:8). Mary also acknowledged that God was her Savior (Luke 1:47). A sinless person does not need a savior.

Argument 9). Mary remained a virgin her whole life (perpetual virginity): FICTION

This is not only beyond reason, but it is contradictory to the revealed Word of God, the holy Scriptures. Joseph kept Mary a virgin until Jesus was born (Matthew 1:24-25). This means that after the birth of Jesus, Joseph no longer kept Mary a virgin. Mary and Joseph had other children, the half-brothers and half-sisters of the Messiah. This can be seen in Matthew 12:46-50, Matthew 13:55-57, Mark 6:3-4, John 2:12, John 7:3, 5, 10, Acts 1:14, 1 Corinthians 9:5, and Galatians 1:19. (Before you say, “This was brothers and sisters in the Lord” I suggest you read the context of these passages.)

Additionally, Mary withholding sex from Joseph would have not been in accordance with God’s plans for mankind: “Be fruitful and multiply . . .” (Genesis 1:28); “Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control” (1 Corinthians 7:5).


Argument 10). Mary ascended into Heaven: FICTION

The assumption of Mary into Heaven wasn’t even introduced into the RCC until 1950 by then Pope Pius XII, and there is absolutely no Scriptural support for this, not even a hint of it in Scripture.


Argument 11). Mary was the greatest among all born evidenced by the fact that she was “chosen” by God to birth the Messiah: FICTION

If anyone was the greatest ever born it would have been John the Baptist, not Mary. Why? Because Jesus said so. Jesus declared of John the Baptist that of those born among women there is no one greater than John (Luke 7:28). Following the logic of the RCC which drives their adoration/veneration/worship of Mary, one would expect that their devotion to Mary would only be eclipsed by their devotion to John the Baptist, however, this is not the case.

Furthermore, the emphasis put on Mary by the RCC is grossly out of proportion to the emphasis she receives from the Bible. Mary–the earthly mother of Jesus– is never mentioned again in the Bible after Acts 1:14. This means that of the 27 books of the New Testament, only five of them (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts) contain any reference to Mary. Not what one would expect when one looks at the current deification of her by the RCC. Even when one would expect to find her name among those mentioned in Hebrews 11, (commonly known as the great Hall of Faith), Mary and any reference to her is strangely absent.

Argument 12). Mary is the Queen of Heaven: FICTION

There is no Queen of Heaven. In fact, the only mention in Scripture of a “Queen of Heaven” (a false god) is in Jeremiah 7:18 in which those who are making cakes to her (and those pouring out drink offerings to other gods) will have the wrath of God poured out on them (Jeremiah 7:20).

Argument 13). Marian Apparitions are genuine and legitimate: FICTION

Again, no such teaching, example or precedent for this is found in the Scriptures. However, we are told “Marvel not, for even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14).


Argument 14). Marian apparition messages are true and from God: FICTION

“You will never be alone. My immaculate heart will be your refuge and the way which will lead you to God.” – Mary Apparition in Fatima

“I alone am able to save you from the calamities that approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.” – Mary Apparition in Akita

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my immaculate heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.” – Mary Apparition in Fatima

“. . . I call upon you to open yourselves completely to me so that through each of you I may be enabled to convert and save the world . . .” – Mary Apparition in Medjugorje

The messages of this entity claiming to be Mary ultimately lead people’s attention away from Christ and to herself (itself), not Christ. The Apostle Paul sought to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2). Furthermore, the Apostle Paul warned us that if anyone, even an angel from Heaven, preached a gospel contrary to what was already preached, he/she/it is to be cursed (Galatians 1:6-9).

Argument 15). Roman Catholic Church (RCC) tradition has provided us the doctrines on Mary: FACT

This is true. The RCC consisting of sinful, fallible, fallen human beings has given the world these traditions of men, but the holy revealed Word of God—given to the prophets by inspiration and by which will never pass away—does not support these legends, myths, and downright heretical false doctrines.

Conclusion:

As noted above, Mary is never spoken of in the history of the Church or the letters (Epistles) to the Church (except in Acts 1:14 where a brief mention of her is made). Nowhere in all the instruction of conduct, examples of operation, and direction given to the early church for its operation and function is Mary ever mentioned, yet today you couldn’t walk into a Roman Catholic Church without bumping into something to do with Mary, and you’d be hard-pressed to find a member of the RCC that would deny Mary as being a pivotal or important part of their life in the mother church. This devotion and near-deification of Mary is something you cannot find anywhere in the early Church. The silence of the Scriptures alone speaks volumes against the RCC’s current obsession with Mary.

“For there is one God, and one mediator also

between God and men, the man Christ Jesus . . .”

1 Timothy 2:5

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

See the following related posts:

Conversations with a nun in the unlikeliest of places

Mary-Virgin, Virtuous, not to be Vaulted above her position

Roman Catholic apologist has trouble explaining the “Immaculate Conception” when students interject Scripture

Was the Apostle Peter the first pope?

The written Word of God and Roman Catholicism

Unmasking the pope and the Roman Catholic system




122 thoughts on “It’s all about Mary?”

  2. I’ve often commented, in the form of a question, is there any difference between this form of idolatry & the idolatry of laying offerings of food & incense before a statue of Buddha? Of course not!!! Idolatry is idolatry, no matter how you try & package it.

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  5. How dare you trample on 5,000 years of Catholic tradition with your facts and your Scripture!!

    (/sarc)

    Yeah, I pretty much have given up on Ricky on that other thread. No matter how clear I tried to make it to Ricky, he just wouldn’t accept the fact that Tom was indeed offering up prayers to Mary, thus elevating her to the position that only Jesus deserves.

    And as far as Jesus giving mary a throne to sit on, what was it He said? Matthew 20:23–“but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.” So does The Whore of Babylon Rome believe that God the Father gave Mary a throne to sit on, to sit and cajole her boy into doing a better job of interceding?

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  6. It is interesting how the RCC has built this whole story around Mary. A while back I was driving through the little community of Christmas, Florida with some RC relatives from out of town. I always get a kick at pointing out the cross streets; Blitzen, Cupid, Matthew, etc. We passed St Anne Street and I said “I don’t know who Saint Anne is or why she’s in Christmas, half sarcastically. My cousin snapped at me in the most harsh tone, “St Anne was Mary’s mother”. Well, surely I’d missed that one in Sunday school. As soon as we got home I went through all four gospels – – of course Mary’s mother’s name is not mentioned. St. Anne is yet another invention-legend of the RCC.

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  9. Your “facts” leave a lot to be desired.

    Argument 5 is not a belief of the church, neither is argument 6. Neither is argument 10 (only Jesus ascended under his own power, Mary was assumed, and this is one of the oldest beliefs in both the eastern and western churches, it was hardly “introduced” in 1950.)

    The facts are that you did not honestly state Catholic positions, merely set up strawmen.

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  10. Dear Kenneth:

    All right, to avoid any further hair splitting, allow me to be more clear regarding number 10:
    Mary assumed/ascended/was raptured/ caught up/whisked away/taken up . . . etc.

    Dictionary.com even defines “assumed” as: To take up or receive into heaven. Either way, the belief is that Mary did not die. Now I know that not all Catholics believe she didn’t die (or was “assumed” into Heaven) but there are many many who do. What do you believe about it?

    Regarding numbers 5 and 6, you must keep in mind that although it may not be an official RCC teaching, there are many, many Catholics who whole heartedly believe in numbers 5 and 6. The RCC’s quiet stance equals, at the very least, their acceptance. If these two beliefs that are held by millions of Catholics worldwide are wrong/incorrect/erroneous/heretical to the RCC, then please provide me info where the RCC has denounced them.

    I posted 15 of the most common arguments by Catholics for the near deification of Mary. You selected one in order to split hairs on the meaning of a word, and then took two others that millions of Catholics around the world hold dear as truth and claimed they’re not a belief of the RCC. This still leaves 12 arguments untouched.

    Kenneth, I encourage you to again read the first paragraph to this post:
    “The following is an examination of fifteen of the most often used arguments by Roman Catholic adherents in their defense of their near deification of Mary, (along with a brief response to each argument).”

    This post is not alleging that the RCC is teaching every one of these arguments as an “official position.” However, not only has the RCC accepted (not rejected) these beliefs, but countless millions of Catholics around the globe do believe them.

    If you still disagree I challenge you to go to one of these locations where a “Mary” apparition/visitation/appearance/sighting occurs. Then stand up on a box and tell the huge sea of idolaters that Mary does not plead their case to Jesus and that Mary is not the co-redeemer. You may not make it out alive.

    Marian Apparition Quotes
    Quote: I stand here as the Co-Redemptrix and Advocate. Everything should be concentrated on that. Repeat this after Me: The new dogma will be the “dogma of the Co-Redemptrix.
    Apparition: Lady of all Nations
    Status: Bishop approved. These are apparitions in which the local Bishop (Ordinary) has investigated the apparition and its message and given his seal of approval (Imprimatur). This means Catholics can (but are not required) to visit the apparition site and listen and obey the messages.
    Source: Kunzli, p. 49. Message given to Ida Peerdeman on April 29, 1951.

    Thank you for your comment.
    Sincerely,
    – The Pilgrim

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  11. Pilgrim,

    To take your comment that “Regarding numbers 5 and 6, you must keep in mind that although it may not be an official RCC teaching, there are many, many Catholics who whole heartedly believe in numbers 5 and 6. The RCC’s quiet stance equals, at the very least, their acceptance. If these two beliefs that are held by millions of Catholics worldwide are wrong/incorrect/erroneous/heretical to the RCC, then please provide me info where the RCC has denounced them” a step further, and to their true end, this is one of the favorite tactics of the Romish church. Here’s what they do:

    A doctrine begins to be developed within a certain faction of the church. It begins to grow in favor and popularity with the people and spreads. It is a doctrine that the Magisterium likes, but they don’t want to come right out and endorse it as official doctrine, so they will let it fester and grow and spread–all the while claiming they do not endorse the doctrine. After a long enough period of time elapses, and enough of the faithful have adopted the position, it is declared to be “Tradition.” And we all know Rome’s stance on “Tradition.”

    (Kinda like how many Mormon teachings get their wings)

    See, doing it this way gives them a good head start in finding some Scripture they can twist and finagle to their liking and build up arguments in favor of this false “Tradition,” and against what the Bible really says.

    After all, we’re just a bunch of idiots that cannot understand what the Bible really means. We need a bunch of men in funny collars to tell us so they can bind us neck-and-heel to Rome.

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  12. Dear 4Pointer:

    I also noticed in Kenneth’s comment that he used quotation marks around the word “facts.” He also called them “my facts” and said they left a lot to be desired.

    His use of quotation marks around “facts” was an obvious attempt to convey to readers that he doesn’t believe they’re really truth.

    These were not “my” facts at all, but quoted Scripture. And the most disturbing thing about his comment was his contention with Scripture! His use of “facts” as some form of defense for the RCC (against Scripture itself) reveals his contempt for the revealed word of God and the ingrained commonality of most Catholics who oppose Sola Scriptura. I wish it weren’t so, but sadly far too many Catholics oppose that. For it was the pure unadulterated reading of the word of God that brought me out of the word of faith background and set fire to my lukewarm Christianity.

    – The Pilgrim

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  13. Perhaps Kenneth would like to discuss his beliefs with Richard Bennett over at Berean Beacon. I know just how Kenneth feels as I myself was a former Catholic who lived in bondage under the the mind power of that religion. It wasn’t until I took their teaching and compared it to the Truth of Scripture that I was finally able to have those chains fall off of my heart and soul and mind and find peace that passeth all understanding from God above. Please look into the Word of God, Kenneth. You will not find purgatory, limbo, mortal or venial sin, nor will you find Mary glorified. Let go of your pride. You only have eternal life to gain from studying the Bible. You can’t do anything to save your soul. Only God can save you. Seek and you will find the Truth,the Way,and the Life.

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  15. I believe that Mary either died or certainly gave the appearance of having died. We don’t know for sure, that is why the Catholic church has no real position on it and the Orthodox refer to it as merely her “dormition” (falling asleep). Regardless it was hardly “introduced in 1950″.

    As for my ” around “facts”. You claim these are the most often used defenses of Mary by Catholics. But most of them I have never seen used.

    The church does not have to denounce #5 because it is not a belief of the Church, the church has stated its belief, and people who believe otherwise are in contrary to the church. Also, the current Pope, while he was a Cardinal DID denounce the view of Mary as “Co-redemptrix”. That people may believe these is irrelevant as they are contrary to Catholic teaching.

    If you want me to address the other 12, fine, give me some time and I will post a response on my blog.

    Also, my use of quotes around “facts” does not in any way mean that I hold the Word of God in contempt. I love his sacred word and I read it daily. I DO, however, disagree with YOUR interpretation of it. And, by “your facts” I meant your 15 arguments and never the word of God.

    Nurse Julie, thank you for your words, but rest assured I do read the Bible. I am not under any “mind control” any more than a Baptist or a Presbyterian is. I merely disagree with you.

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  16. The church does not have to denounce #5 because it is not a belief of the Church, the church has stated its belief, and people who believe otherwise are in contrary to the church. Also, the current Pope, while he was a Cardinal DID denounce the view of Mary as “Co-redemptrix”. That people may believe these is irrelevant as they are contrary to Catholic teaching.

    You do know, of course, that if JPII had his way, you would be celebrating Mary as your Co-Redemptrix, don’t you? That his personal motto was “Totus Tuus ego sum Maria” (I am totally yours, MARY), and he had a large “M” carved on his casket as a memorial to this one he worshipped more highly than he did Christ?

    Kenneth, do you pray the Rosary? Then I’m sure you’ve said the folloswing as the fifth “Glorious Mystery”:

    1. As Mary enters heaven, the entire court of heaven greets with joy this masterpiece of God’s creation.

    2. Mary is crowned by her divine Son as Queen of Heaven and Earth.

    3. More than we can ever know the Hearts of Jesus and Mary overflow with joy at this reunion.

    4. Only in heaven will we know the great majesty of that coronation, and the joy it gave to the angels and saints.

    5. Even the angels, who by nature are greater than humans, hail Mary as their Queen.

    6. Mary shares so fully in the glory of Christ because she shared so fully in his suffering.

    7. From her throne, Our Mother dispenses love and peace to men.

    8.The angels and saints longed for the coming of her whose heel crushes the head of the serpent.

    9. Mary pleads our cause as a most powerful Queen and a most merciful and loving Mother.

    10. A great sign appeared in heaven; A woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

    Did you notice #9?

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  17. I thought Popes always got their way? No, JPII never endorsed the notion of Mary as co-redeemer. As for the Popes motto? Read what it meant to him in his own words:
    http://www.catholic.net/rcc/POPE/HopeBook/chap32.html

    I do say the Rosary, but not in that way. As a matter of fact, very few Catholics say it that way. You also left out the glorious mysteries having to do with Christ.

    Also, I see #9. It does not say Mary pleads our case to the Father.

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  18. No, JPII never endorsed the notion of Mary as co-redeemer.

    Are you sure about that?

    (1) “As she was in a special way close to the cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary’s role as Co-Redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.”–Pope John Paul II, 1/31/1985 in Guayaquil, Ecuador.

    Of course, he wasn’t the only one. (link)

    Pope Pius XI:

    (2) O Mother of love and mercy, when your sweet Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on the altar of the cross, you stood next to Him, suffering with Him as a Coredemptrix (Radio Message to Lourdes, April 28, 1935, L’Osservatore Romano (April 29-30 1935):l.)

    Pius XII:

    (3) We may also state that Our Lady was the beloved mother of Christ so that she might effectively become a participant [consors] in the redemption of the human race. (Ad Caeli Reginam, Oct. 11, 1954, AAS 46 (1954):634-635.)

    John Paull II:

    (4) The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception…finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her Son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption; and there her Son entrusts her to us as our Mother….Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son (cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she “lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth” (Lumen Gentium, 58)…At Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church. (Address at Alborada, Guayaquil, Ecuador, January 31, 1985, ORE no. 876 (March 11, 1985).)

    (5) May Mary our Protectress, the Co-redemptrix [la Corredentrice], to whom we offer our prayer with great outpouring, make our desire generously correspond to the desire of the Redeemer. (Palm Sunday Angelus address, March 31, 1985, ORE no. 880 (April 9, 1985)12: no. 2.).

    So now you can see what these (and other) popes thought about Mary: she played as big a part inour redemption as did Jesus Christ. They can go on all day long about how this heresy “does not diminish the role of Christ” and they are dead wrong. ANYONE that tries to share in the act of redemption with Christ takes away from Christ, because HE IS THE ONE WHO DID IT ALL.

    No one “helped Him” or “gave their consent” or anything like that. Jesus knew, from before the foundation of the world, that He was going to be slain for our sins. He did not need anybody to give their permission. HE LAID DOWN HIS OWN LIFE (John 10:18). No one shared in His redemption. And if Mary was crucified with Him, and this somehow made her a Co-Redemptrix (see JPII’s use of Galatians 2:20 in quote (5) above), then I am a Co-Mediator, because I too was “crucified with Christ.”

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  19. Kenneth, I am afraid you are wrong. The Catholic church DOES teach that Mary was a Co-Redemptrix! However, what they have disagreed on was whether she should also be called “Mediatrix of all graces, and Advocate!”

    JP2 made it very clear in his false teachings what he thought about Mary and her role as a co-redeemer of the souls of mankind.

    For further info on Catholic teaching, you can find this at this site http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php of which there are 3 parts.

    Very interesting reading, but still false teaching and therefore heresy and therefore once again to follow the dictates of Scripture – “Whoever preaches any other gospel than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

    Serving the True God – NOT Mary,
    The Desert Pastor

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  20. From a Catholic website endorsed by the Vatican – http://www.catholic.org – we read the following from the current pope —

    “The Rosary is especially needed today, because it “helps us to place Christ at the center, as did the Virgin who meditated upon everything that was said about her Son and upon what He Himself did and said. When we recite the Rosary we relive important monuments of the history of salvation, we again go over the various stages of Christ’s mission. With Mary we turn our hearts to the mystery of Jesus.”

    “The Holy Father called on the Blessed Mother to help us “welcome within ourselves the grace that emanates from these mysteries, so that through us this grace can ‘irrigate’ society, starting with our everyday relationships, purifying it from many negative forces and opening it to the novelty of God.”

    “The Pontiff added that the Marian prayer can bring healing to the world. “The Rosary, when it is prayed in an authentic manner – not mechanically and superficially, but profoundly – brings peace and reconciliation. It contains the healing power of the Most Holy Name of Jesus, invoked with faith and love at the heart of each Hail Mary.”

    All of this is very clear – sounds like worship TO Mary, prayers TO Mary, veneration TO Mary – all of which is blasphemy and takes away from the Lord Jesus Christ what belongs to HIM ALONE!

    The Desert Pastor

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  21. Point 6 – “Mary shares so fully in the glory of Christ because she shared so fully in his suffering.”

    What further proof do you need for the teaching of heresy by the man-made religion that heralds from the 7 hills of Rome?

    The Scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. His purpose was not to come in order to “love” everybody the way they were. He came to be the Sin-bearer of all who place their faith in Him alone, by grace through faith!

    Sola Gracia, Sola Fide are doctrines the Catholic church denies and has killed, maimed and tortured thousands of true believers through the centuries for believing.

    Mary could NEVER become any part of the Sin-bearer, nor could she even atone for her own sins and the totally depraved nature which resided in her as a child of the first Adam!

    She too needed a Saviour, and suffice it to say that if she had never chosen to place her faith in the Only Begotten Son of God for her eternal life, then she like billions around this world who die without Christ would have spent eternity in hell!

    Praying for all those blinded by heresy!
    The Desert Pastor

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  22. Desert Pastor, I am afraid you are wrong, the Church does NOT teach that Mary is “Co-redemptrix”:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=oXPjwTtWaJwC&pg=PA306&lpg=PA306&dq=ratzinger+%22co-redemptrix%22&source=web&ots=oY9fa9zIKW&sig=gedSHlrVL6M_Oh1Hg372XfcAZVc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

    VOX POPULI MARIAE MEDIATRICI is not an “official Catholic organization”. They are in fact borderline heretics. Search around and you will find numerous criticisms of this group.

    Also, you would do well to read that entire article, yes, it mentions Mary, but how she leads us TO Jesus.

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  23. Are you a parent? When your child hurts do you not hurt as well? You don’t think Mary suffered to watch her own son suffer and die a horrific death?

    BTW, I don’t know the source of that list, I never even heard of it before today, but it is not official Catholic teaching.

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  24. No, JPII never endorsed the notion of Mary as co-redeemer.

    Are you sure about that?

    (1) “As she was in a special way close to the cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary’s role as Co-Redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.” (1/31/1985 speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador)

    Here are some more quotes from other Popes through the years (link). Pius VII:

    (2) We repose all our hope in the most Blessed Virgin…who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world;…in her,…the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her, who with her only-begotten Son is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world….Having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race….Appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth…she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains (Ineffabilis Deus, pp. 21-23.).

    Pope Leo XIII:

    (3) [Through the Rosary] we recall Mary’s exceptional merits by which she became a participant [facta est particeps] with her Son Jesus in the Redemption of mankind….She was not only present [non adfuit tantum] in the mysteries of our Redemption, but she played a part in them [interfuit]. In this way the all-powerful Virgin Mother, who once cooperated lovingly in the birth of the faithful in the Church, is also the means [media] and the agent [sequestra] of our salvation to the extent of bringing us back to Jesus Christ, “who is able to save forever all who come to God through Him” (Parta humano generi, September 8, 1901, ASS 34 (1901-1902): 194-195.)

    Pius XI:

    (4) O Mother of love and mercy, when your sweet Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on the altar of the cross, you stood next to Him, suffering with Him as a Coredemptrix….Day by day preserve and increase in us, we beg you, the precious fruit of His redemption and your compassion as His Mother. (Radio Message to Lourdes, April 28, 1935, L’Osservatore Romano (April 29-30 1935):l.)

    John Paul II:

    (5) The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception…finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her Son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption; and there her Son entrusts her to us as our Mother….Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son (cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she “lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth” (Lumen Gentium, 58)…At Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church (Address at Alborada, Guayaquil, Ecuador, January 31, 1985, ORE no. 876 (March 11, 1985).).

    (6) May Mary our Protectress, the Co-redemptrix [la Corredentrice], to whom we offer our prayer with great outpouring, make our desire generously correspond to the desire of the Redeemer. (Palm Sunday Angelus address, March 31, 1985, ORE no. 880 (April 9, 1985)12: no. 2.)

    These men can say how their adoration of Mary and their inclusion of her in the redemption doesn’t take away from Christ’s work all they want. Fact of the matter is, it does. Because any doctrine that says that anyone besides Christ had anything to do with our salvation takes away from Christ’s work because HE DID IT ALL!

    And if Mary was somehow a “Co-Redemptrix” because she “shared in His death” (see JPII’s quote (5) above)—a quite twisted reading of Galatians 2:20 if I ever saw one—then I am also a Co-Mediator because I too was “crucified with Christ.”

    He knew before the foundation of the world that He would go up that hill. No one needed Mary’s permission to do anything. All those things that happened that brought about Christ’s crucifixion were the will of God, not the consent of Mary. He did not need anyone’s permission. No one had to give their assent. HE GAVE HIMSELF FOR US (John 10:15-18).

    John Paul II devoted his life to Mary, worshipping her to the same extent he “worshipped” Christ. No two ways about it.

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  26. VATICAN CITY, JUNE 1, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Father Georges Cottier, theologian of the Papal Household, delivered this address during a world videoconference on “Mariology from Vatican Council II Until Today,” held Wednesday by the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy (www.clerus.org).

    Quote from that address –
    The Council´s text, which we have quoted, strongly emphasizes this: Beneath the cross, Mary suffers deeply with her only born Son, she joins in his sacrifice with maternal love; lovingly consenting the immolation of the victim generated by her: What could these words mean if not that Mary plays an active role in the mystery of the Passion and the work of the Redemption?

    The Council itself clarifies this: The divine Redemptor´s mother was “above all others and in a singular way the generous associate. … She … was united with him by compassion as he died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace” (No. 61). “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.” For this reason “the Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix” (No. 62).”

    *************

    “she joins in his sacrifice with maternal love; lovingly consenting the immolation of the victim…..”

    For the reader this is directly from someone who is part of the papal household!

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  27. And yet more quotes from Catholic websites!!!

    “By the titles of Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, the Roman Catholic Church means that salvation for everyone would be obtained through Mary, and not directly from Jesus Christ. While this is in fact already taught by the Catholic Church, and has been for many years, it is not yet formally defined as binding dogma, though some Catholics feel it has already achieved that status. Here are examples of this teaching, the first two are papal encyclicals:

    5. If in all this series of Mysteries, Venerable Brethren, are developed the counsels of God in regard to us — “counsels of wisdom and of tenderness” (St. Bernard) — not less apparent is the greatness of the benefits for which we are debtors to the Virgin Mother. No man can meditate upon these without feeling a new awakening in his heart of confidence that he will certainly obtain through Mary the fullness of the mercies of God. And to this end vocal prayer chimes well with the Mysteries. First, as is meet and right, comes the Lord’s Prayer, addressed to Our Father in Heaven: and having, with the elect petitions dictated by Our Divine Master, called upon the Father, from the throne of His Majesty we turn our prayerful voices to Mary. Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: “Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.”

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  28. By pope Pius XII –

    “our souls were redeemed by the blood and sorrows of the Redeemer and by those of His Virgin Mother”, − “… anime redente dal sangue e dai dolori del Redentore e della sua Vergine Madre.”

    Source: American Ecclesiastical Review, volume CXXI, number 5, Nov. 1949, 360.

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  29. One more for now – pope JP2 in an encyclical from March 1987 stated –

    Mary’s work was to be our co-redemptress, and to mediate for us together with Christ, but of course in subordination to Him. He is the one principle Mediator to whom we owe all. Do not be disturbed by this association of Mary with the redemptive work of Christ. If all Christians are members of Christ, and are called upon, as St. Paul says, to fill up what is wanting to the suffering of Christ, then you can be sure that as Mary, His Mother, was more closely associated with Christ than we are, so she is more closely associated with His redemptive work. By a special title, therefore, we call her co-redemptress. We call her “Our life, or sweetness, and our hope.” For, in bringing forth Christ she brought forth us to life, she is the model of every virtue, and above all should be the glory of all women; and she is our hope as Eve was our despair. All this tells us what she is for. She is our spiritual Mother in heaven, and she fulfills the duties of a Mother, winning for us by her intercession that grace of Christ which is life to our souls and which, please God, will mean eternal life in the end.”

    ************

    It is hard to argue with the facts of a religion that has its true foundation in the mother/child religion begun by Nimrod and his mother/wife Seramis! The similarities are not coincidental, and knowledge is damning to those who remain trapped in the idolatry of Rome!

    Kenneth, I am sorry that you feel you must defend the church to which you belong. These quotes and comments are not meant as a personal attack against you, but against a religion that has been the degradation of millions and is not a true provider of hope that is only found in and through Jesus Christ ALONE, by grace through faith, apart from any sacraments OR works!

    The Desert Pastor

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  31. Kenneth, I really hope that you will at least consider correspondance with Richard Bennett at Berean Beacon. He was a Catholic Priest for 22yrs. He will tell you the truth about the history of the Catholic Church. You will hear it straight “from the horse’s mouth” (Sorry, Richard, no offense intended). I can’t think of anyone more qualified to share with you than this former Catholic Priest. I hope all of the info thrown at you does not harden your heart. I will pray for you to be tender hearted and become consumed with His holy Word.

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  32. This is far more than I could ever respond to, so I will just lay out some simple facts:

    1. Catholics do NOT worship Mary

    2. Catholics do NOT believe Mary is any way equal to and especially not superior to Jesus.

    3. Mary is not now, nor will she ever be considered a “co-redeemer” with Jesus.

    4. Catholicism has nothing to do with ancient babylonian, egyptian, Greek or Roman religions.

    Nurse Julie, I have no doubt you are sincere. But rest assured, I am consumed with His Holy Word. But, I am not interested in Mr. Bennetts version of the truth. I have read the items at his website and am not impressed.

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  34. If you go to the link Bill has provided it will take you to a page that is filled with what are supposedly proof-texts that Luther and Calvin and Zwingli were Mariolaters.

    However, if you want some schaolarly discussion on what these men were actually saying, you can check out the following links:

    Luther and the assumption of Mary

    More on Luther and Mary

    John Calvin’s supposed Mariolatry

    Did Luther pray to Mary?

    A quiz on Luther for Catholics

    What many in the Romish system neglect to tell you, when quoting Luther, is when he said certain things. Did he say them while still in this system? Was it as he was coming out of her? If you had talked to me 20 years ago, I would have told you that a woman has every right to an abortion, and what is growing inside her is not a child. Back in the 90’s I grew a brain and realized that abortion is murder. So, if someone wanted to try hard enough, they could bring up something I said before I changed positions to make it look like I support abortion. That is what Catholics like to do with Luther.

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  38. I apologize for posting this same long letter again (you will find it on another post on Romanism from earlier today), but I found it to be a very good reminder of the foundation on which Catholics stand. In my opinion, the foundation of the allegorists is one of sinking sand, and such foundations are sure to create a “language barrier”:

    Roman Catholic Allegorism
    It is true to say that, for the most part, Scriptural interpretation of the Middle Ages was allegorical. The Roman Catholic Church has maintained the validity of the allegorical method, though there is evidence that later on, some of their scholars saw the excesses that resulted from this Patristic theology, and were prepared to admit the importance of the literal meaning of Scripture. Roman Catholics accept the Latin Vulgate translation if Jerome as the authentic version for public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions. This church thus puts itself into the awkward position of basing its doctrines on a translation instead of the original languages of Hebrew, Chaldee and Greek. This is a great weakness, for no one translation, however good, can adequately set forth the truth of the original.

    Moreover the Roman Catholic expositor is forced to accept obediently whatever the church specifically decrees on the authorship of the books of the Bible, and some twenty verses have been officially interpreted and may not be deviated from. Actually the number is more than this, because many of the official documents require definite interpretation of certain verses. Roman Catholic exegesis became summed up during the Middle Ages in three rules:

    1) A passage may have an allegorical or mystical meaning.
    2) It may have an anagogical or eschatological meaning, that is, it may prefigure or anticipate the church in glory.
    3) It may have a tropological meaning, that is, teach a way of life, or in other words, convey the moral significance of the passage.

    With its often excessive usage of types, the Roman Catholic diverges from the Protestant. Thus the manna in the wilderness, the Passover, the bread and wine of Melchizedec are made types of the Eucharist, this ignoring the controlling guide of N.T. usage. Such expositions can never be accepted by the honest searcher for truth. It is reading into Scripture what is not there, and is the fruit of the allegorical method of interpretation, which is used to bolster up this sacramental and sacerdotal approach to the Bible. Further, the Roman Catholic believes that to his church alone has been entrusted the Deposit of Truth in a two-fold form, 1) the oral form (tradition) and 2) the written form (the Scriptures), and the written form, the Bible, is obscure and needs an official interpreter, which must be the Church of Rome, to whom alone, he believes, it has been given by God. To him the oral tradition is of equal authority with the Word of God because he believes that both have come from God, and are complimentary.

    Furthermore, no passage of Scripture can be interpreted to conflict with the Roman Catholic doctrine. It is therefore obvious that the Protestant expositor is always at a disadvantage when disputing on doctrinal matters with a Roman Catholic. Whereas the former will take his stand solely on God’s Word, the latter can always retreat and bring in his oral tradition, which he believes to be as much God’s truth as the Bible. The more one studies the Roman Catholic position, the more one is thankful for the great liberating effect of the Reformation. Believers today have largely forgotten what they owe God for this great movement: freedom of conscience, and approach to Him through the Lord Jesus Christ alone, and no through any human sacerdotal system with its inevitable bondage.

    -The Interpretation of Scripture – Stuart Allen, London 1967

    Sola Scriptura!!

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  39. Pingback: The god of Catholicism Who Needs Your Help « Defending. Contending.

  40. Thank you Bro Aaron for your enthusiasm as expressed in –

    “The more one studies the Roman Catholic position, the more one is thankful for the great liberating effect of the Reformation”.

    What exactly, in your mind is the Roman Catholic position that you refer to?

    And what makes you think that the Roman Catholic position you referred to is a correct/proper “understanding” of the real Roman Catholic position?

    As I understand it, the Roman Catholic position has not wavered over the the past say 2000 years, that it is the Church that was established by Jesus Christ.

    If as you say, the Reformation has liberated you, from the Roman Catholic Church that was established by Jesus Christ, then how can the Reformation save you when you have been liberated from the Church of Jesus Christ?
    sincerely, nik A Morris

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  41. Mary, when she heard about God’s plan, went to see her cousin, and she sang a song of praise about it. Her song is found in Luke 1:46-55. It is often called the “Magnificat.”

    The word “Magnificat,” comes from the same root which gives us our word, “magnify.” To “magnify” something means to “make something bigger” or “to give someone glory.” Mary’s song magnified the Lord. She was interested in making herself seem smaller, and the Lord seem bigger. Mary would not have been happy with the way this part of the Bible is often used today. The Roman Catholic Church has a well-known prayer referred to as the “Hail Mary.” It comes from a combination of Luke 1:28 and 42. The Catholic prayer says, “Hail Mary, full of grace…” But Luke 1:28 tells us that the “hail” with which the angel greeted Mary, was just that: a greeting – not a description of sinlessness. Mary was not “full of grace.” She was a sinner, saved by God’s grace, through faith. When the Bible calls her “highly favored” it means that Mary was the recipient of grace given to her by God.

    Note that Luke 1:32 does not say, “You will be great…” It says, “He shall be great..,” referring to Jesus. And Verse 42, which says, “blessed art thou among women,” has Elisabeth, Mary’s cousin – not the angel – speaking.

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  42. O.K. guys, let’s cut to the chase.

    Mary died… She died as ALL of us humans who are under the curse of God do.

    She is either with the Lord… or not… only God knows.

    She cannot hear you!

    Only God can hear prayers.

    There is a gulf fixed between you and Mary… and neither side can cross it…

    Dead people cannot see us… they cannot talk to us… they cannot HEAR us.

    They are DONE with this world.

    That includes MARY, the romish heretically-defined ‘saints’, and dead popes.

    They have DIED.

    Those who are with the Lord, even if they COULD hear you (and that’s a big IF), probably have NO interest in your prayers anyway. They are too busy enjoying being in the presence of the Lord.

    Those who are in Hell, even if they COULD hear you (and that’s a big IF), probably have NO interest in your prayers anyway. They are too busy in torment to care.

    So…

    The romish argument is… again… as dead as the people they are attempting to pray to.

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  43. To “The god of Catholicism Who Needs Your Help”.

    Thank you – the Queen of heaven is indeed, the Roman Catholic Mary, who is the Mother of Jesus Christ.

    Accordingly, Jesus Christ is “born of woman” as St. Paul says and elsewhere, the Gospels refer to Jesus as the son of Mary.

    Roman Catholics do celebrate a feast day known as “Christ the King Sunday” and the Gospels refer to the same Jesus Christ, as the King who will come on the Last Day to judge all men.

    Thus, it seems reasonable to me that the Roman Catholic Mary who is the Mother of Jesus Christ the King, be regarded as the Queen of Heaven.

    If this is not for you, a good and wholesome thought, then please explain why do you think that Jesus Christ would refuse to sanction such a title for His Mother, Mary?

    Please bear in mind the ancient command of the Lord – “honour your father and your mother” and given the fact that Jesus Christ is the “perfect man” then it would appear blasphemous for any Christian to think that He, Jesus Christ, would not accord “perfect” honour to His Mother, Mary.

    Additionally, in the Magnificat, that is mentioned above by “Ministry Addict, on 15 September”, Mary also sings “for He has done great things for me”.

    Why would you think that “Queen of Heaven” cannot be one of those great things? Is it too great a thing for Jesus to do? Is it because the Bible nowhere says that Jesus would want to do this?

    Well, there is nowhere in the bible where Jesus says to Mary, “I love you, Mother” and so do you really believe that He does not?

    Supposing we can agree that Jesus Christ does love His Mother a little, just a little bit!

    But the problem is, the Bible nowhere says that!

    In fact, the same Bible says that “He has done great things for me” in Mary’s song of praise.

    Finally, your title “The god of Catholicism Who Needs Your Help” is a strange one and perhaps you will in Christian charity explain what you really intend to convey, so that a more meaningful reply can be prepared.

    Nik A Morris

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  44. nikola,

    Can you show us some Scripture that backs up your claims? Of course you can’t. That is why you rely on the “Traditions” of the Magisterium to teach you what to believe.

    However, I can answer one of your questions–and this answer is found in Scripture. Matthew 20:23–“You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.” Catch that last part? It is for those for whom it is prepared by THE FATHER. In other words, even if Jesus did want to give a throne to Mary it wasn’t His to give.

    Your assumption about Mary (pun intended) concerning Why would you think that “Queen of Heaven” cannot be one of those great things?–We could read all kinds of things into that passage. You are, in fact, reading your own beliefs into Scripture. Which is to be expected–that is what the Vatican does in order to come up with their man-made “Traditions.”

    Oh, and the whole “Well, there is nowhere in the bible where Jesus says to Mary, “I love you, Mother” and so do you really believe that He does not?” That is just patently absurd. There isn’t even a need to waste time answering that. Nothing but grasping at straws.

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  45. Greetings Nik A Morris & thanks for writing. Per your post it seems you need to re-read the Popes words for it is his doctrine and that of the Roman Catholic religion which states how his god needs the help of man. This being in total and absolute contradiction to what is written from Genesis to Revelation. Herein, if you are really concerned about the title, I suggest you write the Pope such that if he changes his doctrine, I’ll change the title.

    Secondly, there is only one queen of heaven and she is one in the same already found in the Bible as revealed in the Old Testament. A “queen” whom the rebellious people worshiped instead of the LORD and for it were sorely rebuked and punished. Your benefit and that of all Catholics is that these words are recorded for you to either heed, or disregard; the choice being all yours.

    Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (I Cor 10:11)

    Here are some verses that speak to the queen of heaven; the same one whom you are worshiping regardless of your belief that she is Mary. She most assuredly is not.

    The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. (Jer 7:18)

    But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

    Finally, you are correct that Mary sings praises to the LORD and you do well to follow her pattern and listen to her words where she says, “…Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.” (Jn 2:5) In so doing you will worship the Father through Jesus Christ and repent of elevating her to a place you will not find done by neither Jesus nor the apostles.

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  46. Nik,

    Please bear in mind the ancient command of the Lord – “honour your father and your mother” and given the fact that Jesus Christ is the “perfect man” then it would appear blasphemous for any Christian to think that He, Jesus Christ, would not accord “perfect” honour to His Mother, Mary.

    Well, then, we have a GREAT problem here.

    The Creator of the universe, God Himself, must now obey His creation (Mary) for all eternity.

    Jesus explained and modeled earthly relationships that likely will change or be eliminated in eternity.

    One relationship the Lord told us would no longer exist is marriage.

    If we are to remain subjected to our earthly ancestors then there is an implied hierarchy that has eternal implications.

    This hierarchy flies in the face of clear Scripture teaching on Who will receive ALL of our devotion, affection, and obedience… and THAT is Jesus Christ, not ‘mom’ and ‘dad’.

    We have but One Abba, Father.

    In Christ,
    – Jeff H

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  47. Ministry Addict of 15 Sept 09.
    Quote –

    “Mary would not have been happy with the way this part of the Bible is often used today. The Roman Catholic Church has a well-known prayer referred to as the “Hail Mary.” It comes from a combination of Luke 1:28 and 42. The Catholic prayer says, “Hail Mary, full of grace…” But Luke 1:28 tells us that the “hail” with which the angel greeted Mary, was just that: a greeting – not a description of sinlessness. Mary was not “full of grace.” She was a sinner, saved by God’s grace, through faith. When the Bible calls her “highly favored” it means that Mary was the recipient of grace given to her by God.
    End of quote.

    Dear Ministry Addict,

    I am curious as to how did you come to know that Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ is not hapy with this?

    Do you think that Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary would not be happy with this when The Father has commanded – “honour your Father and Mother”?

    Sincerely Nik.

    Do you know that God had said “the Words I have spoken will not return to me empty, for they will achieve the purpose for which they were spoken”?

    You are right – Luke usaed “Hail” as a greeting, so how did you arrive at the “sinlessness”?

    If say you say, Mary was not full of grace, then what do you think she was full of”?

    Why is it that “highly favoured” is not GRACE?

    Who gave you the authority to “minimise” God’s gift of Grace to Mary so that she is “not full” of Grace?

    How did you measure the magnitude of the supernatural gift – GRACE to Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ?

    Sincerely, Nik.

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  48. I didn’t say “Mary IS NOT happy…” I said, “Mary WOULD NOT be happy…” I believe Mary is in the presence of the Lord today experiencing fullness of joy. Not because she was the earthly mother of Jesus, but because she was saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe that because the Bible teaches it.

    The purpose of her “Magnificat” was to magnify the Lord, not to magnify Mary. She “would not” be happy to see the Roman Catholic church using her Holy Spirit-inspired song to magnify Mary instead of the Lord.

    I did not arrive at the “sinlessness” of Mary. I was pointing out that if the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Mary was sinless, this teaching is wrong.

    She was not “full of grace.” I know this, because I know she lived in a body of unredeemed flesh. Jesus is/was the only human being Who has ever been “full of grace” in the way that Catholics believe Mary was “full of grace.”

    God gave me (and every born-again believer) the right to proclaim that Mary, like all men, was conceived in sin, and born in iniquity, and have all sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.

    I measured the “magnitude of” Mary’s “grace” on the scales of God’s Holy Word (the Bible), and found her to be a sinner, just like me and you and everyone who has sucked air in this world, except for Christ the Lord.

    God has forbidden us to worship Mary, to pray to (or through) her, to attempt to deify her, or to satanically strangle the meaning out of the beautiful illustration of her redeemed and loving obedience.

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  49. Amen Ministry Addict! NO true born again believer can feel joy when idol worship is being practiced on such a broad scale. Mary would NOT be happy with what has taken place for much too long; the exaltation of a mere mortal, a sinner at best, alongside a HOLY GOD…how shameful.
    Let’s not forget Isaiah 42:8, “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”

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  50. At the end of the day, it does not matter what Mary would think, it only matters what God thinks. And God’s word is clear on this matter, as Lyn and others have shown, regardless of the Mariolatry that Nik continues to promote.

    Herein, it seems to me like we have cast enough pearls out that have been well trodden under foot by Nik. No need to cast any more as far as I can see for if what has been written is not enough, what more can be said?

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  51. If you wish to offer what the Catholic Church teaches, then go to the source not hearsay. Catholics do not worship Mary – never have. Mary is part of the Communion of Saints and we ask her intercession as well as our neighbors. Furthermore, as there was no bible until the Church decided the authenticity of the Scriptures of the New Testament – to make claims using only the bible is erroneous. Jesus spent 40 days after his resurrection instructing his apostles – all he said is not in the bible (a fact which is mentioned in the Gospels themselves). That is what is meant by Sacred Tradition. Capital T. And even if one were to claim the bible as their only source – they must take the entire bible – not just selected passages. It works together as a whole – old and new. The old foretells the new. If you’re really interested in truth then concentrate on the whole, not just the parts.

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  52. Dear Linda,

    You opened your argument with the worn out mantra:

    If you wish to offer what the Catholic Church teaches, then go to the source not hearsay.

    Again, this is a case of ignoring the elephant in the room.

    If your church does not teach, endorse, condone, tolerate, and further perpetuate the bowing down, praying to, adoration of, veneration of, and essentially the worship of Mary (see all the above pictures for some visual examples of what “worship” looks like), then I am expecting you to denounce the millions of Roman Catholics around the world for practicing idolatry (which is strictly forbidden by Scripture), in your next comment.

    I further expect (after you go on record admitting that what these people are doing is wrong since Rome “does not teach this”) that you will provide a link (or many links) to where the Roman Catholic organization has renounced what millions of Catholics around the world do to Mary, and call them to repentance from their idolatry.

    Catholics do not worship Mary – never have.

    What do these Catholics in the pictures in this post do differently for God than they do for Mary?

    Furthermore, as there was no bible until the Church decided the authenticity of the Scriptures of the New Testament – to make claims using only the bible is erroneous.

    So instead we are not to rely on holy writ as did Jesus and His apostles (remember what Jesus used to defeat Satan’s temptations in the desert?), but we should instead listen to the ever-changing ideals of sinful man. No thank you. If I followed your advice eventually I’d have to believe that praying in front of a corpse will help me to merit God’s forgiveness.

    Jesus spent 40 days after his resurrection instructing his apostles – all he said is not in the bible (a fact which is mentioned in the Gospels themselves).

    Ah, but before John told us that there was much more that Jesus did that was not recorded (John 21:25), he told us that “these things have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:31). Apparently John wrote enough of Jesus’ life, ministry, and teaching that he believed we could obtain eternal life just from what he wrote, without infant baptism, rosaries, Mass, praying to the dead, praying in front of corpses, etc.

    That is what is meant by Sacred Tradition. Capital T.

    And your Tradition trumps the very Word of God and this is why you are in error.

    And even if one were to claim the bible as their only source – they must take the entire bible – not just selected passages. It works together as a whole – old and new. The old foretells the new. If you’re really interested in truth then concentrate on the whole, not just the parts.

    We do take the whole thing, both Old and New. So here you level the very same charge against us you opened your comment with; claiming we do something that we don’t, or don’t do something that we do.

    Sincerely waiting for you to address the rampant idolatry within Roman Catholicism by millions of Catholics,
    – The Pilgrim

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  53. Quote – Argument 1). Mary was blessed among women:

    FACT
    Mary was blessed, however, so is every Believer. To make the leap that because Mary was blessed she should receive the adoration/veneration/worship that she’s given is not Scripturally logical. In fact, Scripture records the way Jesus handled the first attempt to elevate Mary’s status. In Luke 11:27-28 a woman in the crowd tried to draw attention away from Christ and to Mary (what the RCC has perfected) but Jesus corrected her saying, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it. “ (Luke 11:27-28). Also, Mary wasn’t/isn’t the only person blessed. See the Sermon on the Mount for a list of others who are “blessed” (Matthew 5:3-11).

    Dear the Pilgrim.

    How/where does Scripture say that every believer is blessed?

    And how/where does Scripture say that Mary is blessed?

    ONE of the “blessings” that was bestowed on Mary was specifically to empower her to enwomb the Living Word of God – Jesus Christ.

    As you ought to know the Bible refers to Jesus Christ as the son of Mary – Sola Scriptura and He, Jesus Christ is also referred to as the only son of God.

    Now therefore are you still consistent/persistent in saying that this same blessing was bestowed on every believer?

    If what you are saying here is true, that every believer was “blessed” in the same way as Mary was blessed, then why is it that ONLY ONE Jesus Christ was ever born?

    Logically then we should have more than one Jesus Christ.

    Logically too, every male believer would be able to enwomb a Jesus Christ!

    Surely, if your Sola Scriptura is true then would not this develoment of your thought be a logical progression?

    Please correct my understanding so that I may move on to answer your other above statements which are quite puzzling.

    Sincerely, Nik A Morris.

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  54. Dear Ministry Addict –
    on October 30, 2009 at 12:28 pm Ministry Addict

    quote -I didn’t say “Mary IS NOT happy…” I said, “Mary WOULD NOT be happy…” I believe Mary is in the presence of the Lord today experiencing fullness of joy. Not because she was the earthly mother of Jesus, but because she was saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe that because the Bible teaches it.
    End of quote.

    Please explain how did you come to know that Mary would not be happy? Have you read somewhere in the Bible where it is said that “Mary would not be happy”. Or are you blessed with a private revelation to know this?

    Are you saying that I believe that Mary is in heaven because she was merely the earthly mother of Jesus Christ?

    What did I write/say that makes you claim that, that is what I do really believe?

    God blessed Mary to be the Mother of Jesus Christ in all eternity. That is her role in the salvation works of Jesus Christ. What she was and what she did on earth was a total expression of her motherhood and of her faith in Jesus Christ. She was saved by faith.

    Pope Paul V1 had said with great insight that Mary is the First and Most Perfect Disciple of her Son, Jesus Christ.

    I am also curious as to how do you come to know that Mary was not saved because she was the earthly mother of Jesus Christ – she fulfilled her role of motherhood which is the purpose of her creation as in her words – Be done to me according to Your Word.
    Mary did the Father’s Will by being the Mother of Jesus Christ so why would you think that she was not saved because she did the Will of the Father, by being the earthly Mother of Jesus Christ.

    The Bible confirms that Jesus Christ had said “ only he who does the Will of the Father will be saved”. So if you are saying that Mary did not do the Will of the Father, then how do you know this? The Bible does not say this at all?

    Quote – The purpose of her “Magnificat” was to magnify the Lord, not to magnify Mary. She “would not” be happy to see the Roman Catholic church using her Holy Spirit-inspired song to magnify Mary instead of the Lord. End of quote.

    You are right that Mary’s song of praise magnifies the Lord.

    Also, as the Pilgrim had said “it is a forgone conclusion that Jesus Christ would love His Mother, Mary”. I would call this a great leap of faith, because the Bible does not record Jesus Christ ever confessing His Love for Mary, His Mother.

    But would you agree, that Jesus Christ would show His love in the “good and great things” that God does as in the Magnificat? Do these “great and good things” not glorify His Own Mother, Mary also?

    So what makes you think that Catholics can do more “great and good things” to Mary, a lot more than Mary’s own son Jesus Christ, True God and True Man?

    Quote – I did not arrive at the “sinlessness” of Mary. I was pointing out that if the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Mary was sinless, this teaching is wrong”?

    Thank you for being fair because your “if” tells me that you do not know for sure, then surely how would you know that “if” the “Roman Catholic Church teaches that Mary was sinless, this teaching is wrong”?

    Quote – She was not “full of grace.” I know this, because I know she lived in a body of unredeemed flesh. Jesus is/was the only human being Who has ever been “full of grace” in the way that Catholics believe Mary was “full of grace.” End of quote.

    The Angel that came to Mary said “Hail, full of grace” in my Bible, and yet you are able to say – “She was not full of grace. I know she lived in a body of unredeemed flesh”.

    Are you saying here that you know something more than the Angel Messenger of God?

    In the Magnificat, Mary acknowledges God as her Saviour. So if God’s “grace” had saved Mary, then why would you deny such a redemptive gift of “grace” from God to Mary?

    Should you care to go back to the beginning of time you will find the Lord of Justice making a solemn declaration when punishing Satan – “ I WILL make enmity between you and the Woman”. While it is not for me to prescribe how God will do this, however I believe that God will grant Mary a “fullness of Grace” to effect her perpetual state of wellbeing throughout Mary’s earthly life.

    Quote – God gave me (and every born-again believer) the right to proclaim that Mary, like all men, was conceived in sin, and born in iniquity, and have all sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. End of quote

    Your so called right to proclaim as you have stated is not found in my Bible. Instead I have found the counsel that you do not judge others. Even St. Paul says that I do not judge myself for it is the Lord’s prerogative. When you say all have sinned then how is it that 2 prophets were taken up to heaven, long before Jesus Christ was born. All have sinned you say, and so would your “all” include babies born and aborted, even the mad?

    Quote – I measured the “magnitude of” Mary’s “grace” on the scales of God’s Holy Word (the Bible), and found her to be a sinner, just like me and you and everyone who has sucked air in this world, except for Christ the Lord. End of quote.

    Would you agree that sucking air will not help us here, because how exactly would you, though blessed with a fine finite mind scale God’s infinite word to measure “grace” as well. Both are supernatural gifts!

    Indeed as Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh”, how would you construct this scale of yours to measure Him and His Divine attributes?

    I wonder then how would you measure this in your “scale” of things – in the marriage feast of Cana, when Mary prayed to her Son, “there is no wine”, Jesus says “My time has not come”. He says one thing and then He actually does quite another, – so how would you measure this on your scale?

    Here the Bible says as per Sola Scriptura – “my time has not come” but the Word of God Made Flesh then performs the miracle, to show/share His own glory.
    And at the same time would you be able to say that He brought forward His time to honour and accommodate His Mother’s supplication?
    When we subject all this to the rigours of your scale, do you think that He respects and honours His Mother in order to show His love for her?
    Would you say that as Jesus Christ is True God and True Man, He would show perfect love and respect towards Mary, His Mother in obedience to the Will of the Father as prescribed in the 10 Commandments?
    Can your scale measure His love and determine a certain rating that will enable Him to grant certain honours to His Mother?
    Or would you require Jesus Christ, the Word Made Flesh to be authorised by His OwnWord in the Bible?

    Quote – God has forbidden us to worship Mary, to pray to (or through) her, to attempt to deify her, or to satanically strangle the meaning out of the beautiful illustration of her redeemed and loving obedience. End of quote.

    Early in the beginning of the Catholic Mass, God’s family gathered together to pray the “Confiteor – I confess to Allmighty God and to you my brothers and sisters that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts, in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do. And I ask the Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, All the Angels and Saints and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me, to the Lord our God”.

    May I pray that through the eyes of Faith & in Christian Charity, you will see that as a Catholic I will follow the Catholic way to Jesus Christ. Seemingly, you are not a Catholic from what you have said and therefore I do not expect you to follow the Catholic way with me, so please continue to be on your way, doing it your way.

    I also pray that you will understand why I am unable to “satanically strangle the meaning out of the beautiful illustration of her redeemed and loving obedience”.

    Nevertheless, your “her redeemed and loving obedience” is fully expressed by Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ when she responded to the Angel’s greeting “Hail, Full of Grace”!

    This is what she said “behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. Be done to me according to thy word”. And again, these simple words of Mary enhances the eloquence of your “beautiful loving obedience”.

    Thank you for introducing Mary’s “beautiful loving obedience” here!

    Finally. you are now challenged to look for some words of loving regards for the Mother of Jesus Christ, Mary, in this blog “Its all about Mary”.

    May I not be surprised that you and I together will be sucking air in the rain, in vain!

    But should you find otherwise then please be not afraid to document my many errors, especially that, your love for Jesus Christ would lead you to love His Mother, Mary, because this is the Will of the Father.

    Sincerely, Nik A Morris

    Like

  55. Nikola:

    You’re baaack!

    Sorry I didn’t see your comment from April 23rd till today.

    The only thing “puzzling” is your Scriptural gymnastics. How in the world did you turn “being blessed” into “you can give birth to Jesus Christ?”

    I already provided you with sources where the Bible speaks of Believers being blessed, but I’ll provide it again:

    In Luke 11:27-28 a woman in the crowd tried to draw attention away from Christ and to Mary (what the RCC has perfected) but Jesus corrected her saying, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it. “ (Luke 11:27-28). Also, Mary wasn’t/isn’t the only person blessed. See the Sermon on the Mount for a list of others who are “blessed” (Matthew 5:3-11).

    And remember, John the Baptist was even greater than Mary (Luke 7:28).

    Your comment just furthers the point of the original post: Mary idolaters will stop at nothing to justify elevating a common sinner, saved by grace, into something worthy enough to receive adoration (and worship) in the Roman Catholic attempt to distract and divert devotion from God the Father and His propitiatory sacrifice, Jesus the Christ.

    And in your comment to Ministry Addict you said:

    Also, as the Pilgrim had said “it is a forgone conclusion that Jesus Christ would love His Mother, Mary”. I would call this a great leap of faith, because the Bible does not record Jesus Christ ever confessing His Love for Mary, His Mother.

    I thought we’ve already gone over this Nikola. Ok, one last time.

    A). Scripture demands (in several places) that children are to honor their parents.
    B). Scripture also commands that we are to love each other (and even our enemies).
    C). Jesus Christ came to earth for the purpose of being our penal substitution for the punishment and wrath of God that we all deserve (including Mary).
    D). Jesus Christ had to be without spot or blemish, and indeed He was sinless (otherwise He could not be our substitute).
    E). Jesus would have had to love and honor BOTH of His parents or He would have been in sin. Had He been in sin, then He could not be the perfect sacrifice (see letter D).
    F). Thus, this is not a “leap of faith” as you suggest, but a logical deduction from Scripture.

    Sincerely,
    – Pilgrim

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  56. Nikola,
    Please provide scriptural references for this statement from you…‘Pope Paul V1 had said with great insight that Mary is the First and Most Perfect Disciple of her Son, Jesus Christ.’

    You ask this question of Ministry Addict…’When you say all have sinned then how is it that 2 prophets were taken up to heaven, long before Jesus Christ was born. All have sinned you say, and so would your “all” include babies born and aborted, even the mad?’
    Hear the word of the Lord, ‘Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.’ Psalm 51:5 God’s word clearly teaches everyone is born a sinner, with a sin nature and a sinful heart. As for the 2 prophets, faith is the answer to that question. From Pastor John MacArthur’s sermon, ‘the glory of the new convenant’, comes this quote “You say, “How were people in the Old Testament saved?” They were saved by faith. But wait a minute? Were they just saved because they believed? No, they were saved because God accepted their faith, because Jesus Christ would bear their sins.” You may read the entire sermon here.

    You also claim...’May I pray that through the eyes of Faith & in Christian Charity, you will see that as a Catholic I will follow the Catholic way to Jesus Christ.’
    You are blinded by your loyalty to a denomination, you think because you follow the ‘catholic way’ to Jesus you are saved. Why not try the biblical way? G-R-A-C-E is how salvation is granted to dead in sin sinners. The new birth {John 3:3} is essential in salvation; NO denomination can give or sell that. It is a supernatural work of God within the heart, soul, and mind of the regenerated believer. It manifests itself in the believer’s thoughts, speech, and actions. You simply cannot claim to be born again just because you say you are, or because a ‘church’ tells you so. Those who God saves by His grace made available through the cross of Christ will be given discernment to know truth, and they will flee from false teachings. Those who expose error and run from it prove they have been born from above.

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  57. Amen, Lyn and Pilgrim. Nikola: You are asking for Scriptural support in my comment. I did not cite the Verses (though I would be glad to do so), but my points were taken directly from Bible Verses. Roman Catholics claim Mary was sinless. The Bible says no one but Jesus Christ was sinless. The burden is on Roman Catholics to provide Bible support for the sinlessness of Mary. Of course, there is none – only Satanic lies dressed up as tradition and papal statements.

    God’s Word vs. man’s word: God’s Word wins every time. The wonderful thing is that if you forsake man and believe God, you will “win,” too. Turn from trusting men, tradition, and Mary, and submit to Christ alone.

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  59. Dear Ministry Addict
    Quote. Ministry AddictApril 30, 2010 at 11:28 amAmen, Lyn and Pilgrim. Nikola: You are asking for Scriptural support in my comment. I did not cite the Verses (though I would be glad to do so). End of quote.
    Thank you for offering to quote the relevant Scripture verses to enable me to consider your use of them as indicated in my above last few sentences to the Pilgrim.

    You again refer to Satanic lies, and I would be happy to consider what Satanic lies I am supposed to have told so that I may correct my errors.

    In particularare you saying that my “But should you find otherwise then please be not afraid to document my many errors, especially that, your love for Jesus Christ would lead you to love His Mother, Mary, because this is the Will of the Father”, is one of the Satanic lies you referred to?
    Sincerely, Nik A Morris.
    ___________________________________________

    Dear Unworthy One
    Quote.unworthy1April 30, 2010 at 11:00 amNikola,
    Please provide scriptural references for this statement from you…‘Pope Paul V1 had said with great insight that Mary is the First and Most Perfect Disciple of her Son, Jesus Christ.’ End of quote.
    As far as I know, I did not claim that Pope Paul was quoting Scripture. He was making a statement that is based on a Catholic understanding of Holy Scripture. Pope Paul was making this statement on behalf of the Church – the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”.
    It would seem that you have in mind some other person who is better suited than Mary, His Mother to be the “first and most perfect disciple of Jesus Christ”. So please explain the scriptural qualifications of this luminary.
    As we are here to contemplate all things about Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, I think first and foremost, you will see that from the beginning of time God announced the “woman” whom He blessed with the “blessed seed” that is Jesus Christ. The woman is then identified as “Mary” by the Angel’s salutation, “Hail full of Grace”. In Cana, Jesus Christ addressed His Mother as “woman”! And moments before He died, He identified Mary one more time as “woman, this is your son”. From start to finish – and then Mary held her son’s broken body from the cross as in the Pieta. You will recall that the Fourpointer had pointed out that Mary was not there, but this is really a very dangerous and alien notion and unholy thought that Mary, would ever dessert her Son, Jesus Christ to die alone, unloved and unsung, so to speak. Sincerely, Nik A Morris

    _____________________________________________________

    Dear the Pilgrim,
    In your own words, one more time –
    “Mary was blessed, however, so is every Believer.
    To make the leap that because Mary was blessed she should receive the adoration/veneration/worship that she’s given is not Scripturally logical”. End of quote.

    One may reasonably understand that you are saying that, God had blessed Mary. Also, God had bestowed the “same blessing* he gave Mary, on “every believer”!
    But in order to come to a proper understanding of what you really want to say, I asked 2 questions that would allow the Scriptures to be examined.
    And after doing this re-examination of pertinent Scriptures, I came to the view that what you are wanting to say is not “totally true”, because there are some “blessings” that are very specific to “ONLY” Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer.
    Hence my,
    “ONE of the “blessings” that was bestowed on Mary was specifically to empower her to enwomb the Living Word of God – Jesus Christ.
    Now therefore, are you still consistent/persistent in saying that this same blessing was bestowed on every believer?”
    And finally, I asked “Please correct my understanding so that I may move on to answer your other above statements which are quite puzzling”.
    But sadly, you offered no correction!
    Instead you went off my direct pleading to counter, – “The only thing “puzzling” is your Scriptural gymnastics. How in the world did you turn “being blessed” into “you can give birth to Jesus Christ”?
    As a result of your new question, may I plead again that you please bear with me, as I need to go back to the antiquities of time, to Genesis where God had created Adam and Eve and placed them in their Paradise home. He had said to them that He had provided everything that they would need, but of the fruit of the tree of knowledge they are not to eat.
    God also provided the reason why they are not to eat of the fruit of this tree – “they would die”! Clearly, we may say that they were “blessed” with the faculty of “FREE WILL”. This is a “blessing” that was bestowed on Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ. and on every believer according to what you had said.
    But whereas you had perhaps, in this instance, limited God’s “blessings”- mercy, love or goodness to only “Mary and all believers”, as a Catholic, I do believe that God’s blessing of “free will” is granted to all generations of mankind.
    However, may I just digress a little here to observe that Adam and Eve were created “sinless”. In other words they were “saved by God”. So, we may say that they have God as their Saviour. They were indeed saved by God, but does that mean that although they were “once saved”, would they be “always saved”?
    Sadly though in paradise, the serpent Nahash was lurking and he made certain advances to the “woman” Eve. When one nuances the scene here one may discern that Nahash had convinced Eve that “she would not die if she disobeyed God”, because having been “once saved” she would be “always saved”!
    And so, Eve and then Adam believed this tempting doctrine of eternal assurance as espoused by Nahash and, of their own free will, they disobeyed God by becoming friends of the satanic Nahash.
    Now you may well ask, “what in the world” has all this to do with Mary being “blessed”?
    Well, well, well – that is a very good point indeed, as the good Fourpointer would no doubt point out. But this is not entirely pointless, because God now comes down to paradise to mete out justice.
    Firstly, He crushes the novel notion that Adam and Eve or anyone can rely on the Nahash doctrine of “once saved always saved” by banishing Adam and Eve and Satan Nahash.
    God then, shuts them out forever without further delay.
    But in His Mercy, he announces the redemption by granting an extraordinary “blessing” – “I WILL” make enmity between the “woman” and you. He then bestowed on this “woman” the “blessed seed” that will crush Satan Nahash’s head.
    It is a rare occasion for the Lord to use “I WILL” as if His awesome might need to be so deliberately focussed, and many is the time when I need to pause “in awesome wonder” – what precisely is the “qol” of the Lord when He made such an utterance.
    As in the Psalms, would the “qol” of the Lord shatter to smithereens the stately cedars of Lebanon as He said “I WILL”? Would the firmaments of the universe be all shook up, when He said “I WILL”?
    All in good time then, the Scriptures identify the “woman as Mary” – she alone received God’s “blessing of the blessed Seed”. Mary alone is the Mother of Jesus Christ.
    God alone, names Jesus Christ, as “My Son”. Mary also, may address Jesus Christ as “Son”. And on Mt. Calvary Jesus Christ alone, in obedience to the Will of the Father offered a “blessing” to all believers in Him. He said to John, “Son, this is your Mother”. And then He says, “WOMAN, this is your son”!
    Now therefore, contrary to what you have said, “No” other believer was “blessed” by God in this same way! And no woman, other than Mary was ever presented by Jesus Christ as a “blessing on all believers”, just moments before He offered His life in death on the Cross.
    In truth, Mary’s Motherhood to all who would follow/love Jesus Christ is a unique “blessing” – a gift of great significance in the salvation works of her Son, Jesus Christ.
    Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ is a Christian treasure beyond measure, because Jesus Christ in obedience to the Will of the Father would offer “perfect love” at all times to His Mother, Mary. I think that you and I are in agreement with this!
    As you know, God had decreed that the “Word I have spoken will not return to me empty, for He shall achieve the purpose for which it was spoken”. And therefore we may accept that before Jesus Christ may say on the Cross “it is finished” in order that He may proceed to return to the Father, He would need to present His mother as a “pre-requisite” present, a “blessing” in perfect obedience to the WILL of the Father.
    No other “believer in Jesus Christ” was ever “blessed” by God in this same way as Mary was.
    May I rest here to consider how best to respond to the next “puzzling” part 2 of your statements – “1. Mary was blessed, however, so is every Believer.
    2. To make the leap that because Mary was blessed she should receive the adoration/veneration/worship that she’s given is not Scripturally logical”. End of quote
    Sincerely, Nik A Morris.

    ____________________________________________________

    PS 1. Mention of the Fourpointer above brings to mind the need, to acknowledge his many points as below.
    May 2, 2009 – God created the world in 6 DAYS, but in the 60 YEARS between the resurrection of Christ and the writing of Revelation He couldn’t squeeze in a word or two about Mary’s sinlessness. End of quote
    This moved me to look again at the Lords works of creation, and thanks to the Fourpointer, I was pointed to much wonderment of the Lord’s “qol” in His utterances – “Let there be, Let there be, Let there be”. I thought that these seem to be soothingly, quietly calm and cool! And rather benign!
    However as the Lord of Justice in paradise, the “qol” of the Lord would have become an almighty thunderbolt “I Will make”!
    But anyway as we are still on Mary, I am very puzzled as to why would the Fourpointer spoil it all by saying something like, he is wanting to find fault with the Lord via the comment “He couldn’t squeeze in a word or two about Mary’s sinlessness”, when in fact the Lord had already decreed His Almighty Will with regards to the “woman’s eternal protection and preservation” from the wiles of Nahash.
    Additionally in the Revelations that the Fourpointer had pointed us to, the “woman” was chased by Nahash who could not catch her, so he vomited a deluge/tsunami, which was swallowed UP BY THE EARTH”. Truly then, the Lord is forever faithful to His “I will” decree.
    And also on 27 May 2008 from the Fourpointer – “You know, there were about 60 years from Christ’s ascension until God closed the canon with Revelation. And in all those years, don’t you think the Holy Spirit could have told us a little bit more about Mary if it was that important? I mean, couldn’t he have thrown us a bone about her being sinless, assumed into heaven, etc? End of quote.
    Here again, he, the Fourpointer pointedly finds fault with the Holy Spirit which leaves one in fear and trembling in view of the words of Jesus Christ that he who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, ever!
    What is most “puzzling” to me is this – why would anyone one want the Holy Spirit to throw a bone or two to anyone anywhere for goodness sakes! In my early youth jungle abode environment there were tales of practising medicine men with bags of tricks. They would dance and prance about, making noises like the empty gong of St. Paul. Then with a shake, rattle, and roll, they would throw down upon the ground a bone or two. Now, there being four points in two bones they would be pointing in four different directions of the compass. And so wherever the bones point to would be a real bone of contention for various points of perplexing/puzzling interpretations not unlike the “biblical gymnastics” that you spoke of.

    _______________________________________________________
    PS. 2 The Desert Pastor had commented on the “blessing” granted by Jesus Christ from the Cross. He, the Desert Pastor opined that this “blessing”, had no religious significance, as Jesus Christ merely wanted John to care for Mary, His Mother because He was going away and would not be able to care for her anymore”. Perhaps my reply was rather naive, even mischievous and I am sorry that this evoked a quite uncharitable response.
    I just found it hard to believe that the sufferings of the Lord could be so easily dismissed! That after a night and a day of “agonies” and with the whole weight of His body sagging down to make the drawing of the breath to speak just about impossible, “all He could think of” was your “foregone conclusion that Mary be looked after”.
    Yet here again, we are faced with another “puzzling” interpretation of Holy Writ – the question of authority to interpret what Scripture really mean to say “about Mary”, the Mother of the Redemeer. But of course we need to leave this aside for another day.

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  60. The satanic lies I referred to are the lies that claim Mary was sinless. Romans 3:10; Romans 3:23; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 5:12. Nobody has ever been sinless except for the Lord Jesus. To claim that Mary was sinless is a satanic lie. I John 1:8; John 8:44. I “love” the Biblical account of Mary because it is part of God’s Word. She was a sinner saved by God’s grace, and God used her as a key part of His glorious plan of redemption. That makes me love God, not worship Mary. She served as a good example of obedience. When Roman Catholics say that they “love” Mary today (if they’re being honest), they mean that they attempt to give sinful and idolatrous worship, adoration, service, or devotion to her because, deep down, they believe that Christ Himself is not enough. Being charitable, I believe they are deceived. Judging by the way they twist Scripture to support their position, though, I have to admit it is possible that they are committing a more intentional form of idolatry. If this is you, Nik, God offers forgiveness to those who repent of their idolatry, believe the Gospel, trust in Christ alone, and receive Him as Savior.

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  61. to Nik a morris
    Here is your comment to me….

    “Quote.unworthy1April 30, 2010 at 11:00 amNikola,
    Please provide scriptural references for this statement from you{My response, I NEVER claimed this was in the Bible!!!}…‘Pope Paul V1 had said with great insight that Mary is the First and Most Perfect Disciple of her Son, Jesus Christ.’ End of quote.
    As far as I know, I did not claim that Pope Paul was quoting Scripture. He was making a statement that is based on a Catholic understanding of Holy Scripture. Pope Paul was making this statement on behalf of the Church – the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”.
    It would seem that you have in mind some other person who is better suited than Mary, His Mother to be the “first and most perfect disciple of Jesus Christ”. So please explain the scriptural qualifications of this luminary.
    As we are here to contemplate all things about Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, I think first and foremost, you will see that from the beginning of time God announced the “woman” whom He blessed with the “blessed seed” that is Jesus Christ. The woman is then identified as “Mary” by the Angel’s salutation, “Hail full of Grace”. In Cana, Jesus Christ addressed His Mother as “woman”! And moments before He died, He identified Mary one more time as “woman, this is your son”. From start to finish – and then Mary held her son’s broken body from the cross as in the Pieta. You will recall that the Fourpointer had pointed out that Mary was not there, but this is really a very dangerous and alien notion and unholy thought that Mary, would ever dessert her Son, Jesus Christ to die alone, unloved and unsung, so to speak. Sincerely, Nik A Morris

    I will address this statement of yours,
    ‘He was making a statement that is based on a Catholic understanding of Holy Scripture. Pope Paul was making this statement on behalf of the Church – the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”.
    So you line yourself up with the ‘catholic understanding of Holy Scripture’? You dare to even make such a claim when, in fact, Holy Scripture rips the hole RCC theory and tradition to shreds? You denounce that same Holy Scripture when it clearly points to errors in your own RCC teachings!!
    For instance, calling the pope ‘holy father’, even though Christ clearly commands we call NO ONE on earth our Father {Matthew 23:9, ‘And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.’} Insisting Mary is to be held in honor, highly esteemed, even prayed to, and yet, what is the teaching of Holy Scripture? From Matthew 6:6, ‘But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.’ Now tell me, who did Jesus tell us to pray to? ‘Pray to thy Father’. I see no ‘hail mary’ in Holy Scripture; nor do I see a sinless Mary, for she herself says, ‘and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior’ {Luke 1:47}. Tell me, what did God save her from?
    I do not have the time to expose every error of the Roman Catholic teachings, these few examples are more than enough.

    Show me, from Holy Scripture, where we are commanded to pray to and exalt Mary; I am referring to clear passages, not passages that you have to twist to make fit your doctrine.

    Lyn

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  62. Dear the Pilgrim,
    Greetings and thank you for your patience – your enduring patience!
    Truly, as we seek the truth, we must then endure, to the end. Like St. Paul says, “I have fought the good fight! I have run the race! I have kept the faith”!
    In this respect may I say sorry to Bro. Michael, who has had to abort the race! Sorry too for the loss of his pearls and perhaps not a few marbles as well, but he has offered many interesting points. And the most puzzling of all was – that “he, Bro. Michael was taught to worship Mary, presumably because she is God”, when he was a Catholic. And then he triumphantly qualified this comment with, “absolutely”!
    This is just awesome, and I do apologise again that some Catholic authoritative person whom he did not care to name, had done this great harm to him and possibly to some others as well. I do hope that he will always remember and can forgive that in all Catholic prayers to Mary and the Saints, we mostly always beseech them to “pray with us and for us”, always and always and always. Only, when we pray directly to God, do we entreat, “Have mercy, on us”.
    The other unwitting admission that he made was that he had sought out Webster’s dictionary to define/explain Catholic doctrines and practices. This is astonishing – “absolutely”, because whereas he claims to be an Ex-Catholic, he seems so unaware that it is the Catholic Catechism that definitively deals with these. I had called his respectful attention to the Catechism document but alas, to no avail. And so I must look forward with fortitude, no less than your “enduring patience”, to some future opportunity to engage him more meaningfully.
    Now then, I will begin to present my present engagement with this quote
    “May I rest here to consider how best to respond to the next “puzzling” part 2 of your statements –
    1. Mary was blessed, however, so is every Believer.
    2. To make the leap that because Mary was blessed she should receive the adoration/veneration/worship that she’s given is not scripturally logical”. End of quote
    We were at that “moment in time – to quote Tanya C”, on Mount Calvary, where we were in meditation and in communion with one another, and with Mary, the “universal woman of the Bible – Genesis, Cana, Calvary, Revelations”, who was standing at the foot of the Cross. Here Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary then exalts His Mother, to be the Mother of all believers who would follow the commandments and who would give testimony to Him, as in the Revelations of St. John. And therefore Jesus Christ establishes, now and forever, the universality of Mary’s Motherhood. You may say, that this points us directly to the Universality, or the Catholicity, of His Body on earth, the Church.
    It is also significant to recall now, the words of the Holy Catholic Mass. At the Liturgy of the Holy Eucharist, the celebrant-priest prays, “Almighty Father, – Jesus Christ, your Son, stretches His arms between heaven and earth” on the Cross.
    In this way, all believers are called to communion with one another, with their earthly mother, Mary. And so, through Him Jesus Christ, in Him Jesus Christ, and with Him Jesus Christ, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, we are all “made worthy” to come into communion with the Father, God Almighty, to stand before His presence and to serve Him. This is the “moment in time – in the words of Tanya C” when we, believers, in the Church are enabled to share in the Divine Sonship of Jesus Christ.
    If we consider the full picture – beginning with all believers, who are offspring of Mother Mary in the Church on earth, Mary’s son Jesus Christ in the unity of the Holy Spirit and the Father Almighty, we will comprehend the totality of the “COVENANT FAMILY”. And we will see also the role of Mary’s universal Motherhood in proper perspective. The Father in heaven, Jesus Christ on the Cross in the unity of the Holy Spirit, and Mary, the earthly Mother of all Believers in the Church.
    Now because Mary is the Mother of all believers, by royal decree of her son Jesus Christ, King of all Kings, we “all believers” are commanded by the Father Almighty, to “honour Mary”.
    Thus as a Catholic, I stake the claim that the honour I accord to Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ the Redeemer, is in accordance with the doctrines of the Church as defined in the Catholic Catechism. This means that in the opinion of the Catholic Church, such “honour” is a correct interpretation of God’s command to honour your father and mother.
    Certainly you were succinct in saying that, as Jesus Christ is – True God and True Man, He would love his Mother, Mary most perfectly, in obedience to the will of the Father. From what you have said, one will indeed be safe to assert that, Jesus Christ in loving His Mother, Mary “most perfectly”, He will accord “perfect honour” to His mother, Mary just as your “forgone conclusion”, would have us believe.
    Perhaps, I was just too simple minded and naive when I said that while I do agree with you here, but from my reading of Scripture, I have not found any verse where Jesus Christ says to Mary, I love you, Mother. Not anywhere – ever!
    And while you graciously offered that “it is a foregone conclusion”, the pseudonymous Fourpointer interjected, and he, dismissed my misgivings outright, as “not worthy of an answer”. He said that I was just clutching at some straw. And here, it seems that he did make a generous gesture in granting me some straw from his handful of hay. Unfortunately, he too seems afraid to point out to me some appropriate place/s in the Bible, where Jesus Christ directly professes His love for His Mother, Mary in just so many words. Sola Scriptura!
    And that is precisely, why “your foregone conclusion” is so worthy of our utmost respect, when interpreting the Holy Scriptures. Am I correct in saying, that the Sola Scriptura that you do espouse is now being supplemented by your “foregone conclusion theory” – that there are some things, that the Scriptures do NOT say explicitly? Does this mean that “some things” as necessitated by your ”forgone conclusion” mentioned above, may very well become “many, many things”? Please correct me if this is not to be a universal truth!
    But again anyway, if Jesus Christ would “honour” His Mother most perfectly, as you have said, then it is also “a foregone conclusion” that He would command us to do the same. And is that not exactly what He has done in the 10 Commandments – Honour your father and your mother.
    Now therefore, because Mary was blessed by God the Father, the “blessings” He had ennobled her with, have made Mary, worthy of the “honour” that Jesus Christ, her Son will accord to her. Indeed, Mary, acknowledges this in her song of praise, – “He has done great things for me”.
    Unfortunately, in your opinion, you say – quote. “To make the leap that because Mary was blessed she should receive the adoration/veneration/worship that she’s given is not scripturally logical”. End of quote.
    The problem seems to be – what exactly do you mean in what is quoted above and why do you say that this is what Catholics do with respect to Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ.
    In your own words elsewhere, to address the CD HOST, you say this “unless you were in my head”. How then, is it possible for you to be “in the head of ALL Catholics and see into their hearts and into their souls – some one billion of them, when they pray to Mary to pray with us?
    Sorry to have to digress again –I had mentioned the scene where the boy Jesus, 12 years old, was found in the temple. Here we hear Jesus counselling His parents, “do you not know that I MUST be about my father’s business”. And immediately after saying this, the Scriptures then says “He returned with them to Nazareth and was obedient unto them”! But there is more, a lot, lot, more, because when he was baptised by John, Jesus Christ was 30 years old.
    Now fully equipped with your “forgone conclusion”, we may now conclude that Jesus Christ had stayed at home for some 30 years. And furthermore he then began His public ministry to save all mankind in only just 3 more years. You then replied that, it is unthinkable that He, in His glorified Body, would ever be subject to His Mother?
    What exactly do you mean, that it is unthinkable? Unthinkable to whom, when Scripture has spoken thus?
    At this very juncture we have the JeffH, jump into the fray with the novel notion that Jesus cannot be obedient to His Mother Mary – period. He then proceeded to offload such great heaps of sundry quotes from the Scriptures here and there, that I may as well pull out the few remaining strands of hair, upon my head in despair, in a manner of speaking.
    And so, what do you think Jesus Christ was doing in all those 30 years that he was at home, nurturing and preparing, supporting His Mother to fulfil her suffering role alongside His very own, to redeem mankind? Truly then it would be “unthinkable” that, Jesus Christ would ever be disobedient or disrespectful to His Mother in order to achieve the purpose of His mission! Simply, this is not “doing” the Will of the Father – this not the way to honour your father and mother which is essential to salvation. You cannot do this by “disobeying” your father and mother and think that you are assured of salvation!
    Just so that we can be more positive in order to put this section to rest, may I ask that if Catholics are so wrong in what they do to honour Mary, then, can you please prescribe what we should really do, so that you may give some consideration to coming back to the Church – the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
    Sincerely, Nik A Morris.
    Nik replies to Unworthy
    Thank you – we have a “puzzle” here!
    In your unworthy 1 April 30, 2010 at 11:00 am Quote “Nikola, Please provide scriptural references for this statement from you…‘Pope Paul V1 had said with great insight that Mary is the First and Most Perfect Disciple of her Son, Jesus Christ.’ End of quote.
    When I replied that I had not claimed that Pope Paul was quoting from Scripture, you responded that you too, did not claim that Pope Paul was quoting from Scripture.
    So let us say that the puzzle is a simple one – “I had misunderstood, what you had really intended to say”. Or could it be that you had misunderstood what you really wanted to say.
    If, at this very elementary level you and I misunderstand one another, then it is possible that we would understand the “Scriptures about Mary” in different ways. Obviously, you may claim that your understanding is more correct. But, I too, am entitled to make the same claim.
    So, what are we to do now?
    Will you stand fast on your personal scholarship? Or will you go to your Church – but then you will face a colossal problem here, because as far as I know there is no Church for/of “pseudo – nyms”! But correct me, please.
    As for me, I will turn to the Church, the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth” per St. Paul, for the proper/final authority to interpret the Scriptures – to go to the Church as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth – elsewhere we are exhorted – go tell it to the church!
    Do you know why the same St. Paul did not say that “it is the Bible that is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth”, or for example, “go and read your Bible by yourself”?
    And interestingly too, the same St. Paul concluded his Epistle to the Romans with a prophecy, “soon, the God of love will crush the Satan under your feet”, but let’s leave this be for another time, shall we?
    With regards to Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, you did not seem to agree that “Mary is the first and most perfect disciple of her Son, Jesus Christ”, and yet when I challenged that your candidate be validated by Scripture, you quickly went the other way! Surely you would know that, “evasion enhances not your argument”!
    To make matters worse you say that you have seen “no Hail Mary” in the Scriptures and so I am the “twister of Holy Writ”.
    This is astonishing, as my Bible acknowledges Mary, to be the woman in Genesis and records the Angel’s greeting to Mary, as in “Hail, Full of Grace” at the Annunciation.
    Soon after that, at the Visitation scene, St. Elizabeth, the mother of St. John the Baptist says, “Blessed are you among women” and Elizabeth, then offers the same blessing of “blessedness” to Jesus Christ as in “and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus”.
    All of this is in my Bible, and so, the first part of the “Hail Mary” prayer of Catholics, is Scriptural. You will see also that the blessing bestowed on Mary is considered by the Holy Spirit to be a worthy offering to her Son Jesus Christ, True God and True Man. Surely then, you will not fail to see that in the Old Testament of a genuine Bible, that the Father demands only the very “best” to be offered to Him, just as He requires the very best of materials and craftsmanship in constructing the Ark of the Covenant. The Holy Ark was lined with the purest of gold – inside and outside. And God preserved/protected it, even when accidently touched.
    Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, no doubt is a true Ark of the Covenant as she is carrying the Sacred Word, made flesh in Jesus Christ!
    How do you think that God will ennoble Mary to fulfil this role! Why do you think God would do “great things for me” as Scripture says? Do you know what great things are these? Do you know, how many great things are involved? Do you know when will God stop doing these great things, to Mary?
    Please note too, that St. Elizabeth also says, “Why is it that the Mother of my Lord should come to me”. Hence in the second part of the “Hail Mary” prayer to Mary, Catholics say “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”. Amen!
    You do seem to know a lot about the doings of Catholics and how very wrong they are, in your opinion – that of a pseudonym, but sadly you seem not to want to know that when Catholics pray to Mary, they ask her to pray with them to her Son, Jesus Christ, as in “pray for us”. Always, yes always and always, we say, “pray for us”.
    Pray to whom, do you think? Have you studied the Catholic Catechism so that, in Christian charity you would be adequately equipped to know what you are talking about?
    However, if as you say – you have not seen the “Hail Mary” in your Bible, then is it possible that you do not have a proper Bible but a pseudo – Bible perhaps? So how do you know that the book you are using as your Bible is the “inspired true word of God”? Did your Church, tell you that it contains the inspired word of God? Or is this certified in it to be so, by “someone authoritative”? But who is this and how is he/she/it, accredited?
    As you can see, you had introduced not just a few “extraneous, and irreverent” matters into the discussion – It is all about Mary! Indeed you had chimed in on my challenging remarks to the Ministry Addict and not unlike him you too skipped over the flung gauntlet now lying down upon the ground.
    In the good old days in “merrie England” when King Arthur held sway over the knights of the round table, Sir Lancelot would select a knight from amongst the round table knights who would be jockeying and jostling and vying to be the Chosen- 1, to pick up the gauntlet!
    Let’s grant then, that Sir Lancelot would call upon the gallant Sir Galahad “whose strength, is as the strength of ten, because, his heart is pure” – Lord Tennyson.
    However as Sir Galahad is the most youthful of them all, he would probably think that he is the Unworthy-1, because you see, the virtue of humility is not unknown even among the bravest of men. But he knows full well, that he is securely bound by the code of chivalry to engage! It’s all about Mary!
    With that said, “I hope you don’t mind, I hope you don’t mind” as Elton John sings, that I do not engage your demands “call no man your father” and “praying in the closet” as absolutes, just now.
    And so, may I bring you back, on track to Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer being the topic under review. May I now look forward then, to the Biblical accreditation of your candidate who is better suited than Mary to be “the first and most perfect disciple of her Son, Jesus Christ”!
    Sincerely, Nik A Morris
    PS.1. Very quickly – the first Sunday after the Nativity, Catholics celebrate the feast of the Holy Family of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. And at the “Liturgy of the Word” part during Mass, the Scriptures laid down the genealogy of Jesus Christ. Beginning with Abraham was the “father” of Jacob and so on and so on for 14 generations. Then we have another 14 generations, the “father” of and so on and so on. And then we have 14 more generations to Jesus Christ, each one beginning with a “father”.
    Also, in the 10 Commandments we have, honor your “father” and mother.
    Finally, please refer again to John8:44. Here we have Jesus Christ himself admonishing the misuse of His, call no man your father words, with “the devil is your father and he is the father of lies”. Do you think that here He might be speaking directly to me or to you?
    And now may I ask you please “what would you pseudonyms call her/his/ its, male parent?
    Would this not be “father” also, so please tell me, what does Jesus Christ, really mean to say here in the way you have used His words, “call no man your father”?
    Elsewhere we have – call no man your teacher, no one is righteous, no not one and yet we have two men who were taken up to heaven. At another place we see – no one is seeking God, but aren’t you seeking God – as otherwise we are wasting time in having this convoluted conversation.
    P.S.2. Very quickly too. As for your “praying in the closet”, we do not see this when Jesus taught the “Our father – the Lord’s prayer” – the most favoured prayer of Christians. Here Jesus had just come down from the mountain to meet a large gathering of people in a vast open space. Also we can see that in the “transfiguration of the Lord” scene, another prayer event that took place in the public domain – atop the mount of Tabor. I do appreciate that the “closet” is a good and proper place to use, but it is not always the only place of convenience to go to, to pray. Clearly then, you are truly confused, if that is the “only place” that you have been using in order to go to pray! How often would you be doing this, on a daily basis? And as most Christians go to a Church to pray, why not just go the closet convenience as you say? Much money may be saved to help the poor as Judas would have recommended.
    P.S.3. Please, be patient with me as you have introduced “praying only in closets”. Bro. Michael had accused Catholics of vain repetitions etc when “praying”, in the closets, I suppose. Unfortunately he had not checked out the Catholic Catechism section on “Prayer”.
    But anyway he was referring to Jesus Christ chastising the Pharisees for not praying worthily. And so Bro. Michael prefers to believe that Catholics always pray like the Pharisees! The hang-up problem here is not only that one is not so “brotherly”, in his judgement of others, but more seriously, one seems to fancy that one can see into the minds/hearts of all Catholics at prayer. This faculty as you know is a “Divine Prerogative” of Jesus Christ which enables Him to see into the hearts/mind/souls of the praying Pharisees. Additionally, he Bro. Michael seems not to know that in Revelations, in the celestial liturgy around the throne of God, the heavenly hosts serve the Lord with “UNENDING hymns and prayer”. They prostrate themselves before the Father Almighty, all day, all night, in all eternity.
    Yet again, he says this – that Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is still a “baby” because as in the picture in my bedroom, the “Holy Mother is holding the Baby, Jesus”. Truly I am sorry that this should offend anyone. But surely if you do not believe that Jesus Christ is a Baby, then please be happy with yourself in your unbelieving mode. Joining Bro. Michael here is the Desert Pastor who says that Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is still hanging on the Cross!
    Flights of fancy – you bet!
    However as Jesus Christ is “True God and True Man”, He can be anything at any time. To give a better illustration of this will lead us to go heaven in the book of Revelations. We are now confronted with an event so “unbelieving” that the seer was overwhelmed by weeping copiously in despair. All of this was because “no one, yes no one could open the 7 seals”!
    Then lo! And behold! There stood up from among the throne of the Most High, a Lamb – looking as if He is slain! The Lamb, looking as if He is slain and seemingly still bloodstained from having been subjected to much savagery, He walks up and OPENS the seals , one by one.
    You see – Jesus Christ is True God and True Man and He is not imprisoned into impotency, within the pages of the Bible by me because of my poor understanding and poor judgment of others.
    Dear Ministry Addict
    Thank you, and although you have offered many confusing snippets of Scripture I wish to look more closely at Romans 3:10 –“No one is righteous”. If no one is indeed righteous, then would your understanding mean that Jesus Christ is NOT righteous? Can you explain the state of “being righteous”?
    And now I will ask you again – if no one is righteous, then how come 2- Prophets were taken up to heaven so many hundreds of years before Jesus Christ was born. Remember – God had shut the gate as in Genesis? And so, would your understanding mean that there are 2 “unrighteous men” in heaven”, somewhere? How were they made righteous in the Bible? But here, the Unworthy One puts forward as worthy to consider –“they were saved by faith”! Faith in who? And what did they do to express this faith? Did they have faith in Jesus Christ, whom they did not know? How is this possible?
    Do you know which heaven they were taken up to, so that they could await the Redeemer to open up the gate? Surely you must know that after Calvary, Jesus Christ first descended into “hell” where He preached to the souls awaiting Him, to prepare them to enter heaven? So then, could it that the heaven we spoke of in respect of the 2-prophets is in fact the same as that particular hell where Jesus had descended?
    Now, how about Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer?
    In Genesis, we hear the mighty “qol” of the Lord, decree that “I WILL make enmity between you, and the woman and her Seed”. The “SEED” is Jesus Christ who is the enemy of your most favoured word satanic “nahash”, by royal decree. So how is it that the SEED is sinless while the “woman – Mary” is not? Do you mean to say that God cannot protect the “woman- Mary the Mother of His Son Jesus Christ” in the same way that He protects His Son who is her Seed? How is this possible when God is “Almighty”?
    And do you mean that Jesus Christ, True God had reposed in a sinful and impure “ark of the covenant – womb of Mary”? Do you know how the “ark of the covenant” in the Old Testament was constructed to bear the Word of God written down on 2 tablets of stone?
    Please recall the detailed instructions of the Lord regarding the measurements and the materials. And then there was no human skill on earth capable of carrying out the construction so that the Lord had to “inspire the required craftsmanship”?
    In the Annunciation scene, Archangel Gabriel acknowledges, “Hail full of grace”. Obviously Mary had already been blessed as in Genesis above, because the Angel then says “the Lord is with you”! You had previously declared that Mary is not full of grace. But when I asked you “what do you think Mary is full of, when the Lord is with her”, there was only silence and some gnashing of teeth perhaps.
    So, can you tell me, where does Scripture say that God was no longer with Mary at any time during her earthly sojourn, so that she was not adequately protected/preserved by God, from the wiles of your satanic – nahash?.
    If you can find where Scripture says God had abandoned Mary, then can you explain why is it that in Revelations, God had protected the same “Woman- Mary”!
    Do you remember the passage where your satanic – nahash had chased after the “woman” and when he could not catch her, he vomited a tsunami to drown her but the earth then opened up to swallow all of it? Will you accept this to mean that God remained faithful to the promise He had made in Genesis, that God would never abandon Mary?
    Do you remember Mary’s fiat – “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your Word”. And do you remember Jesus Christ saying, “I hold you in the palm of My Hand and NO ONE MAY snatch you away”? Do you mean to say that while Jesus Christ holds His Mother in the palm of His hand, your satanic –nahash can do something to make Mary commit a sin? How is this possible, when Jesus Christ is True God, and yet He forgot that His Mother had pledged “her utmost obedience of faith in Him” with her – “Be done unto me, in accordance with your Word”?
    At this juncture I am reminded of the Pilgrim’s lamentation, that Mary had sinned because during the Purification, and also during the Presentation and Circumcision of the Lord Jesus in the temple, a sin offering was made. The Pilgrim had quoted “Leviticus”!
    However, was this sin offering made also to present Jesus Christ in the temple? Was this sin offering made because Jesus Christ had to be circumcised? Why was He subjected to this circumcision ritual?
    What sin did Jesus Christ commit so that His Mother Mary had to pay for atonement by making a sin offering?
    And yet again with respect to Mary specifically now, it is unfortunate that while the Pilgrim had declared that Mary had sinned, he failed to specify – which/what sin did Mary commit and for which sin, a sacrifice was proper retribution!
    OK then, while you have judged, contrary to Holy Writ, that Catholics “deep down” are not honest, may I affirm my honesty in disbelieving the Pilgrim’s opinion that Mary had sinned according to his particular application of Leviticus!
    Oh yes and please be alerted that the satanic-nahash can show much competence in quoting the Scriptures.
    Additionally, is it conceivable for a believer in Jesus Christ to ever think, as apparently the Pilgrim does, that Mary had sinned by virtue of the fact that she had “brought forth her first born Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer”? And for that reason, she was called upon to present a sin offering as prescribed in Leviticus?
    Please, what do you make of all this madness – can you offer a proper explanation, as you have also said that Mary had sinned?
    May I leave your other quotes for another time – one, I think it is John 8:44, is totally out of place here as Jesus is in dispute with the religious leaders about slavery and freedom, so it has little or nothing to do with Mary? But of course if you are able to explain further then I will be happy to pray to Mary to pray with me over this, for proper understanding. Other similar statements of Jesus, when considered as absolutes without context would take us all up the garden path to perdition – call no man father, call no man teacher, no one is righteous- no not one, no one is seeking God etc.
    Finally I had posed a couple of challenges to you so far!
    1. You had introduced a “few loving words towards Mary” and I asked if you could kindly search out for more “loving words about Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ” in this blog, because of its name – “It’s all about Mary”.
    You see – Mary is a loving Mother! And I think you actually said so yourself, and surely such a statement by you cannot be “satanic” at all.
    Again about Mary, I said that at Calvary, Mary would not leave Jesus Christ to die alone and unloved. I had to come in like this because the Fourpointer had said that Mary and John had absconded themselves as the Scriptures declared “from this hour”. I was saddened about this because I wondered whether the “beloved apostle John” would then hasten to look here and there, running hither and tither, and dithering whether to hustle a hoss, donkey or an ass perhaps. And he then put Mary upon such beast to ride out into the sunset like in a Clint Eastwood western, even before Jesus could cry out “it is finished”. There has to be something satanic about it all because it ain’t a human kind of thing to do. But consider also that “within the hour” there are 60 minutes and 60 seconds to every minute so why such a rush to abandon the dying Jesus Christ. And that is why the Pilgrim had to counsel me to not do “gymnastics” with the Holy Scriptures.

    2. I had made a statement “that your love for Jesus Christ would lead you to love His Mother, Mary, because this is the Will of the Father”, and because you seem addicted to matters Catholics being “satanic”, I asked whether this very Catholic understanding of Mary would be also “satanic” in your opinion.
    Sincerely, Nik A Morris.

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  63. I keep coming back to the whole, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)” I don’t see any exceptions for Mary stated elsewhere, and if she were sinless, that would be an important enough exception to be EXPLICITLY STATED, not kind-of, sort-of implied maybe.

    It’s not like we’re talking about some no-name chump who happened to be hanging around Judea at the same time, we are talking about the mother of Jesus Christ Himself; someone He knew, someone He loved, and someone whose sinless nature, if there, He would have known about. The fact that no comment is made about it by Him ANYWHERE, nor by the apostle John – who was tasked with taking care of her later in life – is more revealing than anything else.

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  64. Argument 11:
    Mary is mentioned in the Book of Revelations. Not directly by name–but it’s pretty obvious that it’s her.

    Argument 9: Actually in those days, they referred to cousins as brothers/sisters. Mary didn’t have any more children. Which explains why on the cross Jesus gave His mother to all of us. i.e. John 19:26-27 “When Jesus saw his mother* and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.”
    If Mary had other children, other sons, Jesus would not have had to do this. But because she didn’t…and since he was the only man of their household–he gave Mary to John because he did not want to leave her without a home or way to be provided for. Symbolically Jesus also gave His mother to all of us in that moment, so that we would have a spiritual mother to turn to.
    And as for asking for her intercession–who better to ask to take our prayers to Jesus than His Mother? And she does not just take our prayers–she perfects them–
    Imagine it like a kingdom. There is a King and his mother the Queen. A serf is harvesting the apples in his orchard and wishes to bring the best of his crop the the king as a gift. Instead of giving the king the apples directly–which may not be the best way as the king is very busy and wouldn’t be as graciously accepting of the gift in the moment as he could have been–the serf takes the apples to the queen, where she takes the best one, prepares it with love, and perfects it–takes out the core and places it on a plate–and delivers it to the king right at the moment when she knows that the king is craving an apple–gives it to the king and he is so grateful and thankful for the gift that the serf has given to him. —Mary takes our prayers when we ask for her intercession and takes them to Jesus, laying them at His feet and asks Him to help us. She does not like seeing her children suffer.

    And sir, I would like to say that as a Catholic, and having a devotion to Mary that is dear to me (because in my devotion to her, I have become more devoted to Christ.) I believe that Mary is of some importance.
    I would ask you kindly to read St. Louis De Montfort’s book “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin”
    (Which is in reference to his devotion to Mary through the Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary). And if you would like to discuss this further (and I would be very much open to it). I will give you my email address.

    Thank you.

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  65. could you give verses to back this “Mary is mentioned in the Book of Revelations. Not directly by name–but it’s pretty obvious that it’s her.”?

    You also state “Mary didn’t have any more children. ” ‘Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings. Some Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for
    “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers. A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous
    marriage. An entire theory of Joseph’s being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented without any biblical basis. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

    There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.’ – From http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-siblings.html

    You also say “And sir, I would like to say that as a Catholic, and having a devotion to Mary that is dear to me (because in my devotion to her, I have become more devoted to Christ.) I believe that Mary is of some importance.” I encourage you to repent of your idolatry; nowhere in God’s word are we called to be devoted to Mary. God is a jealous God and will NOT share His glory with another, that includes Mary. We are called to repent of all sin and trust solely in what Jesus Christ has done on the cross, His atoning sacrifice for sin made for all who forsake their sins and believe in Him. The idol worship of Mary will cost you dearly.

    “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth.And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.” Deut. 4:15-19

    Here is the command against idol worship of any kind, shape, form; which includes Mary.

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  66. Amen lyn. God certainly is Jealous, a consuming fire; that had been intimately understood for centuries. It would certainly be curious as to why that point is no longer stressed or even acknowledged by the majority of Christians in the last hundred to hundred-fifty years if it didn’t have such deadly implications. We can choose to create an all loving god suited to our fleshly desires all we want, but that will never change the God Who Is.

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  67. Chapter 12 in the Book of Revelations

    Having a devotion is not worship. Catholics do not worship Mary. We ask for her intercession.
    Mary only wants to lead us closer to her Son.
    Let me try and say it this way: You love your mother, right? Are you not bound to obey her through the ten commandments? It is because of this reason (and because Jesus gave His mother to us at the foot of the cross) that I love Mary.
    It is what I believe to be true. Mary leads me closer to Christ, because she is someone who I can identify with. She was completely human. She was full of grace, and chose the will of God in everything, and because she bore the Son of God in her womb I call her blessed. (As it says in the Gospel of Luke in the Canticle of Mary. (Luke 1: 46-55)
    “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”.. (to quote a few of the verses).
    But, Mary was human. And through her humanity I find consolation in traveling on my path of holiness towards Heaven that I will make it there. Mary walks with me, and if I should ever try and turn my devotion towards her into something that takes away from my relationship to Christ, they always remind me. Because my heart belongs to Jesus, through Mary. Through His mother, who perfects it for me, and then takes it to the foot of the cross where her Son died for me.
    That is what I believe. I think that Christ loves His mother, and would not turn someone away from Heaven for loving her as well, or for having a devotion to her that leads us closer to His heart. Through Mary we can gain a better understanding of Christ in His humanity.
    I do not think that God would ever be jealous of His mother. He is a kind, merciful, loving, and forgiving God.
    However, I know that you are stating what you believe. And I want you to know that I fully respect what you believe. But this is what I believe. And one day, I believe that we will meet each other in full communion in Heaven. And I look forward to that day.

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  68. carolinefives says:
    “Mary is mentioned in the Book of Revelations. Not directly by name–but it’s pretty obvious that it’s her. ”

    and the roman catholic church is featured in Revelation 17 – dont ever let anyone tell you different.

    carolinefives says:
    Having a devotion is not worship. Catholics do not worship Mary. We ask for her intercession.”

    And so you blaspheme the ways of God to your own destruction.

    -Jim

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  69. You pray to her, where in the Bible does it command us to pray to Mary? Also provide scripture to support this “Having a devotion is not worship. Catholics do not worship Mary. We ask for her intercession.Mary only wants to lead us closer to her Son.” Where is scripture to back all that you claim about Mary?

    You also state “That is what I believe. I think that Christ loves His mother, and would not turn someone away from Heaven for loving her as well, or for having a devotion to her that leads us closer to His heart. Through Mary we can gain a better understanding of Christ in His humanity.” Again, this is all based on your belief, BUT, does what you believe line up with God’s word? NO! We are never commanded to pray to Mary, to use her to get closer to Jesus, or to consider her as equal to Christ.

    You are under wrath, not grace. You are putting your hope in Mary, and the false teachings of a dead church. The Bible commands us to repent of sin, and believe in Jesus Christ; not Christ plus Mary. Only the finished work of Christ can save you, all made possible by God’s grace. There is not one thing you can say, believe, or do that would cause God to save you; you are a wicked and vile sinner who has no hope apart from God’s grace. It is His grace and mercy that you should be seeking and crying out for, not believing in a woman who was just like you, a sinner; however, she was shown favor by God and saved. You will die and step into outer darkness, separated from God because you refuse to love the truth. Your ‘god’ is a church tradition which exalts a sinner to the status of being a goddess. I encourage you to open a bible, cry out to God for mercy and truth. You have no idea how jealous and holy the sovereign God of the universe is.

    You have been proven wrong concern the other children Mary had and your claim they were cousins, didn’t that cause you to stop and think, do you not question the validity of what else you’ve been taught?

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  71. What do you have if it isn’t based solely on God’s word Brianna?
    Here are some scriptures that validate the authority and sufficiency of God’s word, “For the word of the LORD is right ; and all his works are done in truth” Psalm 33:4
    “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” John 17:17
    “The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting” Psalm 119:60
    “Your word is very pure, Therefore Your servant loves it.” Psalm 119:40
    ” How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to Your word” Psalm 119:9
    “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts
    and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12
    “For, “ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF, BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.” And this is the word which was preached to you” 1 Peter 1:24-25

    There are tons more verses that stress the word of the Lord as truth, sufficient for all the born from above believer needs to grow in Christ. The word also is used to expose error, like worshipping Mary and praying to her instead of worshipping and praying to God and God alone. Does the Bible command us to worship God? Yes, from Revelation 19:10 ‘Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.’ Also Revelation 22:9 ,’but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this
    book. Worship God.”

    Does the Bible command us to worship Mary or pray to her? No, there is not one verse that commands us to to either of these. If you do not hold the word of God as the highest authority, then you adhere to man’s erroneous teachings, which come from man’s wisdom. God’s wisdom far exceeds anything man could think, say, or do. This is how deception is birthed, by men taking bits and pieces of God’s word, adding to or taking away from it, and creating a ‘religion’ that suits them.

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  72. Woah! First, we do NOT ever ever ever ever ever worship Mary! Any who worship Mary are not following the RC tradition, teaching, or scripture! Period. End of discussion. I just want to throw that out there before I even attempt to address the rest so there is no confusion.

    Mary was human. Mary is not, never was, and never will be any more divine than you or I. She is not to be worshiped – that is for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ alone. Period, end of discussion. Honored is a different matter all together (one I’ll address later).

    This is a blog post I wrote back in October. It is by no means meant to be doctrinal or at all meant to be comprehensive. But, since I don’t have anything else written just yet, it will have to do for now http://ourladyslamp.blogspot.com/2011/10/because-they-love-mary.html

    This is something I just put together about Scripture Alone: http://ourladyslamp.blogspot.com/2012/02/one-of-biggest-differences-in-catholic.html

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  73. If you do not worship Mary, then why do you pray to her, and why do you have statues of her?

    Caroline states what you do, that you do not worship Mary, but yet, she states this “Having a devotion is not worship. Catholics do not worship Mary. We ask for her intercession.
    Mary only wants to lead us closer to her Son.” This IS idol worship ladies and you will not find a command to worship Mary or be devoted to her. As for an intercessor, Christ alone is the intercessor of His people.

    You need to be honest with yourselves concerning your adoration of Mary, this is unbiblical and is sin.

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  74. First, let’s get a definition of prayer out there:
    Mister Webster’s first definition has two parts:
    1) An address or petition to God or a god.
    2) An earnest request or wish.

    That second definition can be applied to a Judge, a friend (Please please please hack into my computer and send me the file I forgot to send to myself!), or to anyone. When we talk about praying to Mary or the Saints, that is the definition we refer to.

    If you want the best distinction, look at the two most common, well known Catholic Prayers:

    Our Father – addressed to God:
    Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. (Yes, I end it there, because that’s where Jesus ended it in the Gospel).

    Hail Mary – addressed to Mary
    Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen.
    The first segment is only scripture: The angel’s greeting (and if he can say it, we certainly can!) and Elizabeth’s greeting (Again, if she can say it, so can we. Besides, aren’t we commanded to speak scripture?). The second part illustrates beautifully the difference in how we address God (give us this day our daily bread) and how we address Mary (pray for us!).

    Is saluting the flag idolatry? Is putting up pictures of your family – present and deceased – worshiping them? Is doing something “in the name of so-and-so” putting them on equal status to God? No! We do the same thing with Mary. We put her pictures up because she is our mother. We put statues up because, frankly, they are pretty and we can honor her in the same way we honor all of our other heroes. If we can put up statues of our presidents, war heroes, celebrities, sports players, and famous animals, we can put up a statue in honor of the Woman who bore Our Savior! Doing something in the name of Mary – being devoted to Mary – is only so we can become more and more like Her Son. Never did she claim any of the honor for herself. When Elizabeth exalted her, she turned the glory to God saying “My Soul magnifies the Lord!”

    If you have a human mentor, then that too is idol worship because though he/she is leading you closer to God, you’re using him/her to get to God, so that’s idolatry by your logic. That’s silly! Paul says “be imitators of me.” Yet we don’t say he’s setting himself up as God! Why would imitating Mary be?

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  75. Brianna, is Webster’s definition infallible? 🙂
    If you want to show that someone here is wrong, you should at least base your words on official (preferably infallible) teaching and definitions of the Roman Catholic Church (maybe the Catechism of the Catholic Church?). Your own private opinions are of no value, not only here, but also in your beloved church.

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  76. “We never give more honor to Jesus than when we honor his Mother, and we honor her simply and solely to honor him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek – Jesus, her Son.”
    -Saint Louis Marie de Montfort, True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin
    “Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did.”
    – Saint Maximilian Kolbe

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  79. I’ve discovered over time that if you talk to a Romanist long enough they eventually reveal their lowered view, lowered emphasis, and lowered care for the God-breathed Word given to His people.

    “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17

    And now on this thread the subtle attack on God’s Word has begun:

    “Just one request for those of you asking everyone to ‘prove from scripture’ the claims made: Where in scripture does it say ‘only scripture?’”

    Hath God really said? If we can discard the Word of God, we can then get away with inventing purgatory, practicing idolatry, demanding indulgences, burning “heretics” at the stake, and we can indulge in all sorts of behavior, because, after all, there is no unchanging standard of truth by which to govern us, direct us, teach us, reprove us, correct us, and train us.

    Then, after injecting doubt into the trustworthiness, credibility, and/or need of the Word of God, we then elevate parables and the dictionary as the standard by which to determine God’s truth. No wonder why we are carried along by every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14).

    Speaking of which . . .
    Regarding Mary, Caroline claims that Jesus comes first in her life and that Mary is like some sort of omniscient, cosmic, go-between; one who plays the role of a co-mediator (which denies the axiom that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between man and God . . . no Mary in there).

    “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5

    Yet, Caroline’s avatar picture is of Mary (not Jesus) and her caption under her avatar has this quote:

    “Simply a writer at heart wanting to express her love for Mary and lead others to a devotion to her and through her Christ.”

    “Lead others to a devotion of her?” The emphasis is clearly on Mary in that quote (and the picture of course), not the Savior Jesus Christ. And Jesus is not even referred to as her (Caroline’s) Christ, but as Mary’s Christ.

    This is called idolatry. Jesus has taken a back seat and He plays second fiddle no matter how much lip service you may give Him here and there.

    This reminds me of the guy who claims to love his wife, yet all he does is talk about another woman, is always talking to this other woman, has pictures of this other woman in his wallet and on his office desk, and wants all his friends and coworkers to meet this other woman. But as soon as someone questions his obvious out-of-balance devotion (adultery) to this other woman compared to his wife, he quickly assures them with hollow words that his wife is more important.

    Sorry, his friends and coworkers won’t buy his physical infidelity to his wife anymore than God is buying your spiritual infidelity to Him and His Son.You have placed an idol between you and the Lord and you need to repent of it and turn to Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

    If God wanted to share His glory with Mary, and wanted us to idolize her like we see today, the Holy Spirit would have inspired the authors of the New Testament to provide teaching, direction, and/or examples of this devotion. Instead, after the gospels we get one passing mention of her in Acts and she’s never spoken of again throughout the history of the early church recorded in Acts, nor the numerous epistles to the various churches (except the reference of an unnamed woman in Revelation, that is actually Israel, but is still used as a proof-text by Rome to squeeze one more reference about Mary into the vacuum from Acts to Revelation).

    No, God never intended for people to do to/with Mary what Rome is doing. In fact, Jesus said John the Baptist is greater than Mary and that “the least in the kingdom of heaven” is even greater than him (so that leaves Mary way down on the ladder of greatness . . . no wonder why Roman Catholics eschew the Bible, it conflicts so sharply with their man-made traditions):

    “Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” Matthew 11:11

    “I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” Luke 7:28

    Christians do not hate Mary as some Catholics erroneously assume because we refuse to pray to her and bow down to her statue in homage like Nebuchadnezzar. We respect her and appreciation her just as any biblical character that was blessed by God, from Abraham to Moses to Paul. But the edification of Mary can be described as nothing less than an affront to a jealous and holy God and is complete and utter idolatry no matter how much reasoning, unbiblical spin, and scriptural gymnastics one performs to justify their idolatry.

    In fact, when the first attempt to elevate Mary (to a position greater than was ever intended by God) was recorded, Jesus Christ corrected that error and pointed the one in error back to . . . scripture!:

    “While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.’ But He said, ‘On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.’” Luke 11:27-28

    Please, dear ones, turn from your idolatry, repent, and put your faith in Christ alone, for Jesus Christ and He alone is the provided mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5), and He—not Mary—is the one who intercedes for us (Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25).

    There is so much at stake. Idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9 and Revelation 21:8) and this is such a serious matter that God considers idolatry hatred of Him:

    “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,” Exodus 20:4-5

    Sincerely, respectfully, and prayerfully,
    – Pilgrim

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  80. First, don’t *ever* assume that Catholics don’t love the Sacred Scriptures! We just don’t see everything as being in there. The scriptures were not meant to be a comprehensive book that addressed every issue on earth! Where do you ever find the word – and definition – of Trinity? Nowhere. Where do you find the explanation of marriage as between one woman and one man? Nowhere (which is why Luther said it was fine to have many wives), something most Evangelicals will now vehemently disagree with. Where do you ever see God say “Abortion is wrong” in scripture? Nowhere. What about “Genetic Cloning is wrong”? Nope. Where do you find criteria for dating? Nowhere. Seriously, where do you once find evidence of Mary’s death? Never. Where do you find evidence that she wasn’t assumed? No where. So, by your logic, my case is just as valid. (Not getting into that issue just now. I will address it later, but not just yet).

    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm — There is the Catholic Teaching on the matter.
    “103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.

    104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God.” “In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them.””

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  81. Typical false argument – no reasoned Christian claims the Bible speaks on every topic under the sun. It does speak Truth in all that is covers and it DOES cover everything needed for life and godliness. And where the Bible speaks on science or math, it is authoritative – God is the Author of these things; man merely discovers them.

    Many from Rome love the Scriptures – few understand them.

    Anything man adds to the Bible regarding the essentials of the faith is, by definition, the product of man’s imagination. Many are led astray by those who wrongly claim the Bible is not enough, Jesus is not enough. This mystical religion is condemned in Scripture.

    Repent and believe on the biblical Christ – not the pale imitation that hangs yet on a cross and cannot save anyone.

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  82. I think that you are bound and determined to believe – regardless of truth – that all Catholics worship Mary. That’s not so. At all. Period. The few that may are not true Catholics, are not true Christians. But those who do have a true devotion to her do not – ever – place her on the same level as God. I’ll address the “issues” and “fact and fiction” the blog raises later.

    “Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on the Mother; for the more she is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son. There can be no doubt that whatever we say in praise of the Mother gives equal praise to the Son.” –Saint Bernard of Clairvaux

    ”Let those who think that the Church pays too much attention to Mary give heed to the fact that Our Blessed Lord Himself gave ten times as much of His life to her as He gave to His Apostles.” –Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

    *laughs* You seriously think that we believe He still hangs on a cross? You need to come to mass with me at some point and actually listen to the prayers said. Yes, we emphasize his sacrifice, because that was the final sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins, but without his Resurrection, we have no hope for the future! We keep crucifixes around to remind us – forgetful, ungrateful wretches – of what he did for us! He gave His life for us, and all He asks us to do is to follow Him. To embrace our crosses. To teach as He taught. To live as He lived. Please don’t insult me by saying I don’t believe in the Risen Lord. The Lord I believe, trust, hope in, adore, worship, and glorify is the Lord that sits at the right hand of the Father. He reigns on high with him, and He will come again in glory to judge all of us (Read Revelation if any of this sounds unfamiliar).

    And Jesus is enough for me. Jesus is my all-in-all. Jesus is my everything. Jesus deserves much better than any of us could ever be, yet he lovingly opens his arms to us. Jesus humbled himself so that we could go to Him. I don’t deny that, I preach it! Jesus is enough for me to live the life He called me to.

    As for your lovely statement that “Many from Rome love the scriptures – but few understand them.” Well, that is true. It’s also true of Calvinists, Lutherans, Bible-Church Christians, and whatever else you want to call yourself. Few of us will ever understand even a glimmer of the magnitude of wealth contained in the scriptures. But that does not mean we ignore them. It does not mean we do not try to understand them.

    One other thing I kinda didn’t mention but Caroline’s post made me notice. Who cares what the picture is? We have Mickey Mouse, we have other cartoon characters, we have pieces of nature…. yours isn’t Jesus, does that mean that you love what is in your avatar more than Jesus?

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  83. My bad, Pilgrim. It seems I forgot to use some punctuation. I’ll be going to fix that.
    As I said in my first post– My devotion is a True Devotion to Jesus Christ, through Mary.
    Yes–my picture is of Mary because the blog that I have is about my devotion to her, and how it has led, and is leading me closer to her Son. There is so much spiritually going on in my life that I wish to share that has come about because of her love for me, and Christ’s love for me because I belong completely and totally to Christ, through His mother, Mary. Just as Christ came into this world and dwelt among us through Mary.
    Thanks for pointing out my error in punctuation. Commas, they save lives. :]

    And as Brianna says– Christ is my everything as well. I love Him above all else. Just as Mary says in the Gospel of Luke.” My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. For He has looked upon His handmaid’s lowliness.”
    –This is all that I wish to do. Spread God’s everlasting love to all who I meet, and rejoice in the greatness of my God and Savior.

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  84. You ladies deny you worship Mary, but your comments prove otherwise. Caroline says, “My devotion is a True Devotion to Jesus Christ, through Mary.” Where does this come from? Certainly NOT God’s word. This is evidence of the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church as they exalt Mary, yet the bible nowhere commands us to go through her, or to consider her equal to Christ. This is false teaching, you cannot show us from God’s word where it states to exalt Mary, or go through her to get to Christ. You are both deluded and following a dead religion. You must be born again, and that is not humanly possible. God must do a supernatural work in you, if He had, you both would run from the dead cult you adhere to. As of this hour, you both are under wrath and will die and face eternal judgment. Salvation is not in infant baptism, nor in the sacraments. Salvation is all of God’s grace, trusting in what Jesus has done completely, no one added to the equation.

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  85. So, if my religion is dead, why are there over 1 billion people following it?
    And on another note– Our Sacraments come from Scripture.

    And we do not worship Mary–we have said that so many times. My devotion (and here, I’ll show you where it comes from http://www.fisheaters.com/totalconsecrationmontfort.html#book –I encourage you to read his book, and we can discuss that too if you would like.) does not mean that I worship Mary. You keep on saying that word too, even when we have said again and again that it is not worship. I can love Mary without worshiping her. And another of your lines that you have said again and again that we have already disproved to you–we do NOT consider Mary equal to Christ. In any way, shape, or form and NEVER will. Mary was HUMAN. yes, we believe that she was perfect. Without sin, and she obtained this through grace. (Because Grace Himself was in her womb for 9 months). Mary could have chosen to deny God’s will, to deny Christ, at every turn, and even at the Annunciation. BUT God chose her for a reason–and thus, through Grace, she remained sinless her whole life.
    So, since Mary is perfect, why not use her as an example–we can understand her in her humanity, and she shows us that it is possible to obtain true perfection through Grace. Through following Gods will to the best of our abilities.
    I trust in Jesus Christ, and in the Trinity. But I also know that a great way to gain a better understanding of Christ, is through His mother. Not by raising her to a status equal to Christ, or by worshiping her–but by loving her, as Christ loves her. As Christ calls us to love all of our neighbors.

    As for my devotion–if that’s what I should call it. It is more of an action of loving Mary and loving Christ (through Mary, because I am sure that Mary loved her Son very much.) It is a lifestyle of giving myself to Christ, through Mary–through the person who besides God the Father Himself, knew Christ intimately. He was her Son. What mother doesn’t know her son intimately?
    My earthly mother can tell what my brother is feeling, if he is mad, sad, tired, happy, content, in a good mood, or in a bad mood. Just as my mother can tell that about me, and my older sister as well. And I go to my mother if i have a problem with my brother or sister as well. Because she knows the best way to approach them. Whereas I do not. Just as Mary knows the best way to approach Christ, in times that I do not.

    I would like to emphasize again that Catholics do not, and will not ever worship Mary if they are being true to their faith, and we will not EVER raise her to a status equal to Christ.
    Thank you.

    And I hope that I say this with the utmost respect and sincerity. And that I say this with love. Because that is what I am called to do, to love my neighbor as I love myself. Which Lyn, to me, it does seem that you are doing. And it is through our words and our actions that this should be accomplished. Brianna nor myself have ever stated in any of our posts that which you have said to me, and now to both myself and Brianna.
    That I will be condemned to an outer darkness, and that she and myself are, as of this hour, under wrath and will die and face eternal judgment.

    Harsh words do not help a discussion. But rather fuel it into a rage. So far, Brianna and I both have managed to only show love and not condemn any of you. But have merely tried to explain what Catholicism truly believes and reveal the truth behind the mistakes that you have made in understanding our devotion to the Blessed Mother.
    I would ask that from now on, you would do the same.
    Pilgrim has managed this, and he has earned my respect. I respect your faithfulness and loyalty to what you believe. But it is not necessary to judge us so.
    Thank you for your understanding.
    Peace and Blessings in Him.

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  86. Caroline,
    All you are doing is going in circles, using different ‘terminology’ to justify your adoration of Mary. As for the sacraments, nowhere in the bible do sacraments save anyone.
    As for the accusation of ‘harsh words’, that was truth, which is always harsh. You follow tradition, rituals, works and think yourself saved based on all that. BUT, you have missed it altogether, ‘For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast’. – Ephesians 2:8-9
    The only way you can be saved is if God gifts you with eternal life, by grace. Not by doing something, performing a ritual… only by grace. Why? So you will not brag and make claims about being saved, which is something you cannot do.
    You are not saved, I know because you follow a religion that is based on lies. Lies like Peter was the first pope, there is not even a mention of pope in the bible. Peter was an elder {pastor, preacher} as he clearly states in 1 Peter 5:1. Also, the Catholic church calls the pope ‘holy Father’. Yet the Lord Jesus warns not to call anyone on earth Father in Matthew 23:9, “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” How do you justify this? Your religion disobeys a direct command from God the Son, exalting a mortal sinful man to a status of adoration, kissing his ring; this is another form of idol worship that you keep saying doesn’t exist. Denial of truth is an indication of being deceived.

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  87. What is worship? Define that for me, will you? Because we seem to be operating under very different definitions of the word. I treat Mary as a mother – for that is what she is! She is the mother of my Savior. She is the one the Holy Spirit took as a Spouse so that Mary could conceive the precious Boy who would grow up to die on a cross and rise again from the dead to give us all a way into Heaven something we could never attain on our own.

    And Mary too was a human, born of human parents, raised as a normal child…. But how, you ask, can we say that she was conceived without sin if she was human. Well, Jesus was human, wasn’t he? (Answer: yes) He was conceived without sin. Why couldn’t God, who operates outside of time, protect the woman who would become the new Eve, the place where His Son – a part of Himself – would be knit together free from sin? Where in scripture does it say that, you ask? Well, where in scripture does it say he didn’t? (And don’t quote Romans at me, because if you claim that verse, then you must say that Adam and Eve and Jesus were all conceived with Sin as well, and we know Sin entered the world with the fall and Jesus was conceived without sin. So, that is null. That word “All” is not the same word that we use now.) Where in scripture does it say that you must only marry one man or woman (answer: it doesn’t. Granted, that is how it was set up, but that’s not how it was practiced or what scripture says. Yet I think we’d all agree that polygamy is a sin.)

    We are to imitate Christ, yes? Yes. So, let’s imitate Christ. He came to this world and housed in the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary. He lived there for nine months then entered our world. Then He spent the first thirty years of His life with Her and his Foster Father, Joseph. He gave them the love and respect due to them, and He even changed His initial plans to wait on his first public miracle because his Mother asked. Then he went off and started preaching and teaching for the next three years. Then he died on the cross with only one Apostle, His mother, and some of her friends with Him. While dying on the cross, He was thinking about her and who would care for her and how He could show that her relationship with Him was for all who were also the Children of God.

    If we claim to be Children of the Father, Brothers of Christ (and we were taught to pray “Our Father), then we must accept that we have the same Mother as well. You can’t adopt a Father but not a mother. Similarly, if we claim that Jesus is the head of the church and that Mary is His mother, then is she not also the mother of the Church? Yes. And as mother, she is due honor. NOT worship. Honor. I honor my mother, I honor fallen soldiers, I honor the martyrs, I honor my grandfather, I honor my mother and my father, I honor my priest, I honor many things. I do not worship them. I look to many of them as role models. I look to them because they are tangible examples of how to approach different walks of life. Jesus wasn’t a woman. Mary was. As such, she is an example of womanhood whereas Jesus is an example of humanity. Jesus is still the ultimate example! However, Paul commands his followers to imitate him, yet we don’t call him an idol or putting himself up as God. We say that he’s being an example. That is all we claim about Mary as well. She is our mother, an example, a pointing finger, a northern star shining us toward the Harbor. She is not the harbor, that’s the Trinity.

    And are we not called to go to our brothers and sisters for prayer? We are called to lift each other up, to bring prayers and supplications to our Father in Heaven. I could ask you to pray for me to learn to love God more, so why can’t I ask His Mother to pray for me? Don’t tell me you think that since she’s dead she can’t do anything! Jesus himself said that God is the God of the living. We have hope for the resurrection since Christ rose from the dead. We can’t say that those in heaven or dead or we negate the words of Jesus, Paul, and all the early church. If we say those in heaven are dead, then we spit on the sacrifice of Christ and have not understood what his resurrection meant for us!

    Approaching Mary and asking her to intercede for me is the same, therefore, as going and asking you. Only, by going to her, I know she’s not going to forget. I also know that she is closer to God than I am and you are because she is already in heaven, no longer bound by this world, its temptations, its distractions. It is also a sign of humility. By going to her, I can say “I know I’m sinful. I have no right at all to go to your precious Son. He gave everything for me, and I can’t even give him an hour! Pray with me as I go to Him asking Him to hear my prayer.” I’m not putting her in front of Christ. I’m asking her to come with me, just as I ask my friends to join me in prayer when life gets hard. I am not saying I cannot go to Christ, I am saying that I wish to go with His Mother.

    Now, I am with Caroline on this when I say that you are being very rude. You keep throwing out very harsh judgmental terminology. Remember “you win more flies with honey than vinegar.” You are not showing the face of Christ – or even that of a Christian – when you hurl out insults. You are only serving to make me want to ignore you and brand you as a hot-headed, irrational, bigot. So, unless that is what you wish to be seen as – as opposed to the Christian we are all called to be – I ask you to please curb your tongue (and fingers). I have had to deal with people more offensive than you in person, and you are not making any points other than that of frustrating me and making me think less of you.

    I will address your off topic remarks in a moment.

    My previous comment is “awaiting moderation” (likely due to it’s length) so if this posts before that one, don’t think that I ignored the first half of your spiel, Lyn – I did, though not as comprehensively as I would have liked.

    “You are both deluded and following a dead religion.”
    Thank you. I’ll take back your Bible, your concept of the Incarnation, the Trinity, the pro-life culture we guarded throughout time, the scientific advances we made, the idea of orphanages, hospitals, and everything else that my dead religion founded and still work to keep up. I’ll take all the prayers we passed down, the great philosophers and Doctors of the Faith. I’ll take GK Chesterton, Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, and all those other people you guys seem to like since they are very Catholic.

    Also, seeing as my Church is still the largest Christian denomination, the largest charity on earth, and full of some of the most vibrantly Christian people you could ever ask for – Mother Theresa anyone? – I can’t say that it’s a “dead religion.” Just because many of it’s members are not active does not make it dead.

    “You must be born again, and that is not humanly possible. God must do a supernatural work in you.”
    Unlike some Christians, Lyn, I have read my Bible – cover to cover – and have spent a lot of time studying it and immersing myself in it. I am, blessedly, baptized in water and the Spirit, and thus, “born again” by your terminology. God does a supernatural work in me daily. He constantly showers me with his graces. I go to mass every single day and spend at least and hour a day in prayer so I can grow closer to God. I don’t say this to boast, but you seem to be under the impression that I eschew God for Mary, and this is just not right at all!

    “if He had, you both would run from the dead cult you adhere to. As of this hour, you both are under wrath and will die and face eternal judgment.”
    Oh, I’m sorry. Are you final Judge now? I thought that was reserved for God. And so you know? The only reason I am Catholic is because of the works done in me by God. I would not be Catholic in the Bible belt otherwise. Why? it’s too dang hard! It’s not fun being one of 5 Catholics at your college. It’s not fun being the one people pick on in class, give weird looks to, and ignore on anything spiritual simply because I chose to go to the church that has been around since year 1. Because I refuse to go to a church born from schism, I am ostracised. Yet I stay. Why? Because I have done my research, from the “horses mouth” and looked past one or two encyclicals and into the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, how it has changed through the years, how it hasn’t changed. I have read the early church fathers (though not as much as I would like to have). I have researched the teachings of the faith. I believe that they are the most true to Scripture and most true to the nature of God.

    “Salvation is not in infant baptism, nor in the sacraments. Salvation is all of God’s grace, trusting in what Jesus has done completely, no one added to the equation.”
    You are now contradicting yourself. First, you say I must be “born again” (baptized in water and the spirit – a sacrament), now you say that the sacraments are not essential to salvation.

    I think we can both agree baptism is necessary. We do need to be born again. Confirmation is an extension of baptism, an outpouring of the spirit, so that goes with that. Jesus says “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:53-54). So, apparently the Eucharist is also necessary. No, marriage is not for everyone, so it’s not essential to salvation, but sex outside of marriage is a sin and punished by death (“the wages of sin is death”). I’m not going to go through the others since I don’t think you honestly care but were just throwing that out there.

    Tell me, what am I missing here? The Scripture you profess to be the ultimate source tells us that we must do these things or we cannot enter the kingdom of God. But you say that they are not necessary. Tell me how this logic works? Pick and choose. One or the other. You can’t have both in this discussion.

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  88. While I wait for my other posts to post….‎

    “With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to His infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since He alone can say, “I am he who is”. Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of His will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things He has only to will them.

    However, I declare that, considering things as they are, because God has decided to begin and accomplish His greatest works through the Blessed Virgin ever since He created her, we can safely believe that He will not change his plan in the time to come, for He is God and therefore does not change in His thoughts or His way of acting.” ~St. Louis de Montfort, True Devotion

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  89. carolinefives said 8 hours ago:
    So, if my religion is dead, why are there over 1 billion people following it?
    And on another note– Our Sacraments come from Scripture.

    Because men love darkness and hate the light. Islam is also a very popular religion btw. Oh flee from the wrath of God and the empty way of life handed to you dear soul. You can know Christ, be freed from your dead religion, and pass from death to life. That is my sincerest prayer for you – that you would turn from a dead religion to the living Christ! Jesus does not approve of you trying to mix the two together. Can I ask you a question, what would it cost you to leave the rcc and go straight to Jesus? Family, friends, something else?

    There are two women. One stands with the husband that she loves and is faithful to. The other stands with a john that she is turning a trick for. They both look at their men and say ‘I love you’. Can you see that although they both claim the same thing there is a big difference. When you talk about your love and devotion it is a defiled and sick sort of thing like the second example.

    2Co 6:16-18 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”

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  90. Sage counsel from a dead European:

    J.C. Ryle:

    “My dearly beloved, flee from idolatry!” 1 Corinthians 10:14

    Romanism is a gigantic system of sacrament-worship, Mary-worship, saint-worship, image-worship, relic-worship, and priest-worship! In one word, Romanism is a huge organized idolatry!

    I know how painful these things sound to many ears. To me it is no pleasure to dwell on the shortcomings of any who profess and call themselves Christians. I can say truly that I have said what I have said with pain and sorrow.

    I believe that many a poor Catholic at this day is worshiping with an idolatrous worship, simply because he knows no better. He has no Bible to instruct him. He has no faithful minister to teach him. I remember all this; and I say that the Catholic eminently deserves our sympathy and compassion.

    But all this must not prevent my saying that the Church of Rome is an idolatrous Church. I would not be faithful if I said less.

    My own conscience would rebuke me if I did not warn men plainly that the Church of Rome is an idolatrous Church, and that if they will join her, they are “joining themselves to idols!”

    That heart can hardly be right with God, which can think of the millions who are sunk in heathenism, or honor the false prophet Mahomet, or daily offer up prayers to the Virgin Mary — and not cry, “O my God, what shall the end of these things be? How long, O Lord, how long?”

    Christ rightly known, Christ truly believed, and Christ heartily loved — is the true preservative against ritualism, Romanism and every form of idolatry! (Online source:http://www.gracegems.org/2012/01/idolatry.html)

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  91. Here is a bit of history on the worship of Mary…

    The worship of Mary the mother of Jesus Christ can be traced back to each of the major periods of church history. The Catholic Church is notorious in its promoting and praising of Mary. Murder and scandal were mingled together to form a poisonous concoction of worshipping her over the early, medieval and modern church periods and continues to this day. Mary began as something simple and men who professed themselves to be wise began to twist the truth slowly.

    Writings during the early Church period fueled Mary-worship with the claims of her sinlessness, power and perpetual virginity. In 431 A.D., the Council of Ephesus gave Mary the title, “mother of God.” This claim was not saying that she was just the earthly mother of Jesus Christ, who was the Son of God, while at the same time was God in the flesh, which in their eyes would make Mary the literal mother of God.

    Fifth and sixth century worship of Mary can be linked directly to city of Ephesus. The Vatican calls Mary the “Mother of the Church” and credits her for making Jesus who he was. She is considered the “second Eve” in the same manner that Scripture calls Jesus the second Adam.

    Another modern false view promoted is that since Mary shared her Son’s suffering on the cross, some Catholic theologians see her as fulfilling the Old Testament priestly role in offering sacrifice. This gives her more power and prestige in the eyes of the ones who want to see her in that praiseworthy light.

    read the rest here – http://www.godondeathrow.com/subpage3.html

    You keep insisting “I would like to emphasize again that Catholics do not, and will not ever worship Mary if they are being true to their faith, and we will not EVER raise her to a status equal to Christ.” Yet, your own church history and writings prove you either are a liar or are deceived.
    This is from http://www.whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/wecsk/mary.htm

    The Catholic Church constructs a parallel of Mary to Christ Jesus. It teaches that just as Christ was sinless, so was Mary. Just as grace comes from Christ, so Mary is the mother of grace. Just as the Lord saves His people from their sins, so Mary is the cause of salvation. The Bible clearly states that there is only one mediator for mankind; amazingly the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is a mediator. Just as Jesus Christ was taken up into heaven and is King of Kings, they teach that Mary has been taken up to heaven body and soul and is Queen of heaven. The Catholic Church goes even as far as stating that Mary was immaculately conceived just as the Lord Jesus was. In this section you will see clearly how the Catechism devises this parallel strategy and how the Bible clearly refutes it and reserves the roles of Jesus Christ for Himself alone.
    All that has been documented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding Mary is utterly contradictory to the Holy Scriptures and the exclusive Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Putting your trust in Mary for your salvation is a most dangerous and damning barrier to eternal salvation. Turn to the Lord Jesus Christ in faith alone for the salvation that He alone gives by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and based on His death and resurrection. Believe on Him alone, “to the praise of the glory of his grace” (Ephesians 1:6).

    I have also included a link with videos from former Catholics in hopes you ladies will view some of these men’s messages….http://whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/helpforcatholics/Watch/The_Difference.html

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  92. Dear sisters. Suppose for a moment that I agreed to your assertion thast Mary was born sinless. Would you now consider from scripture a couple of verses with me? From the gospel of St. Mark chapter 3
    20Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
    Jesus’ Mother and Brothers also from the gospel of St. Mark chapter 3
    31Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
    33“Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.
    34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

    So dear sisters, we have a picture of Jesus as He is in ministry, fully man, and fully God. He was born sinless and he lived sinless, and He died sinless, and He rose sinless! This is why He is our living sacrefice!
    Now, re-visit above and you will see that His mother and family came to get Him! Why? Because they believed the Son of God born to the blessed virgin Mary whom you believe was born sinless, and I do not argue that point here. But I do point out to you that the Mary you worship, actually sinned here in her unbelief of her Son functioning as God, for she believed He was out of His mind! Thus here you have proof positive, that she was not sinless as is her Son, our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. Thus she is due no worship at all for she too as all men have fallen short of the Glory of God. Though she is blessed above all (sinful) women by the fruit of her womb Jesus. Thus while she should be well thought of, she is but a bit player in the Passion of Christ Jesus. Now I would direct you to one last reading of the Word of God, which you will find here:
    Preeminence of Christ Colossians 1:9-18
    9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[c] the forgiveness of sins.

    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    You see I too was raised Catholic and learned the traditions of men. Till our Lord opened my eyes to His Truth!

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  93. Sadly, the Catholic church is riddled with scandal, sexual perversion, and greed; all marks of a false religion. Here are a few links proving such…

    http://christianresearchnetwork.com/2012/02/11/vatican-besieged-by-reports-of-money-laundering-plot-to-kill-the-pope/

    http://sueliz1.wordpress.com/2011/12/12/catholic-baby-trafficking-ring-in-spain-busted/

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/07/27/the-vatican-s-gay-priests.html

    The Bible commands leaders of churches to deal with sin, not cover it up or make huge payouts. However, when the leaders themselves are corrupt, what happens then?

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  94. Unfortunatly Lyn you would not be on moral high ground with this assertion. A simple google search should prove this to anyone who does. Simply google “pastor arrested for” and you will find a list of offenses to choose from with tens of thousands of hits in less then a second. In many ways, it is a greater offense in that Protestant preachers claim to have eyes to see. At any rate, on their watch 50 million babies have been aborted…If God heard the blood of rightious Able cry out from the ground what does the blood of 50 million aborted babies sound like to Him? The Roman Catholic church was the original franchise, in what has now grown to many tens of thousands of denominational franchises.
    http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

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  95. Mickey,
    My point was RCC followers insist this is the ‘true church’, yet it is riddled with sin. Yes, I am aware of protestant pastors who are just as wicked, but I do not claim to belong to an ‘ultimate’ denomination. I belong to Christ’s church, which has Christ as the head. This is why I make no allegiance to any denomination.

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  97. ” I am aware of protestant pastors who are just as wicked, but I do not claim to belong to an ‘ultimate’ denomination. I belong to Christ’s church, which has Christ as the head. This is why I make no allegiance to any denomination.”

    Amen Lyn.

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  98. Mickey, you are correct, the Roman Catholic religion was the first original franchise, but it was not the first original church. The original franchise of Rome sought to bottle man-made religion and tradition and simply put a new look on it. Kind of like McDonalds coming out with a new “McNugget” packaging and claiming that the red slurry used to make the “chicken” pieces actually is chicken! McNuggets will no more be real chicken, than the Catholic system can be true Biblical Christianity, and no more than wicked Protestantism will ever be true Biblical Christianity.

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  99. MANFRED:
    You were right when you said,

    “These Roman Catholic watchdogs that have recently come out to defend their heretical doctrine of Mary worship have, in fact, proven it.”

    We are currently cresting the second wave of a Romanist flash mob on this blog. We have had more Roman Catholics swarm onto this blog in the last month promoting their religion than I’ve experienced in the past four years combined. If it wasn’t for the moderation filter, the comment threads would have been completely hijacked.

    There is an obvious campaign targeted toward this blog. I was able to locate one comment thread on a Romanist blog asking people to come comment here, but I don’t believe that’s the one that has garnered most of the Romanist visitors.

    BRIANNA:
    As you continue your attack on the Word of God (you claim the Bible says nothing about abortion? Really? Have you not read “Thous shalt not murder” from Exodus 20:13 and that God “hates” the “abomination” of “hands that shed innocent blood” from Proverbs 6:16-17?) your arguments are beginning to border on absurd in your desperate attempts to defend the indefensible.

    Your Mickey Mouse avatar argument is a straw man because this debate is not about the idolization of Mickey Mouse. No one is debating the bowing down to nor the praying to Mickey Mouse to somehow bring them closer to Christ. Nor is anyone claiming Mickey Mouse is a co-redeemer, co-mediator, was immaculately conceived, never sinned, was assumed into heaven, intercedes for sinners, and is now called the “Rodent of Heaven.”

    Caroline’s position, however (as well as yours), is that Mary is indeed ALL of these things and much, much more (except the “Rodent of Heaven,” Mary’s supposedly the “Queen of Heaven”).

    Quite frankly I do not have the time to argue this matter with someone who subtly rejects the very Word of God (unless quoting it is to your advantage). If you fully or partially reject that God’s Word is true and the standard measure of truth by which we live our lives and the church is governed, then continuing to banter with you on this is a waste of your time and mine. (I trust that you’re busy in your life too.)

    Furthermore, it is apparent that no matter what truth is presented to you, you will reject it in favor of the traditions of men, and, like the Pharisees of Jesus’ time who rejected the truth of God for their traditions, only a supernatural act of God opening your heart (like Lydia in Acts 16:14) to receive teaching, and your mind (like the disciples in Luke 24:45) to understand the scriptures, and to give you understanding that you may know Him (1 John 5:20), will make any difference. Until then, wheels will simply spin in the mud.

    CAROLINE:
    The size of one’s religious organization is a very, very bad barometer of whether or not one is in the true faith. Jesus told us that narrow is the road that leads to life and FEW find it, whereas the broad path to destruction is very well traveled by the multitudes (Matthew 7:13-14). And if you know your biblical history, it’s always been the minority that followed God and it has always been the minority that God has used.

    During the flood, how many people got on the ark in contrast to how many people were drowned? How many of all the Israelites that were brought out of Egypt actually entered the promised land? How many men did God use to fight with Gideon? How many prophets did God use to confront Ahab and Jezebel and challenge their false pagan priests? How many disciples did Jesus choose out of all of the land of Israel? What happened every time Jesus’ followers grew too large (He typically gave them a hard teaching that drove the masses away). How many men did God use to begin the Church?

    You get the idea. If numbers were an indicator of truth, Islam would be truth, Mormonism would be truth, Hinduism would be truth, etc. Again, you get the idea.

    Please understand, I do not dislike you or Brianna or any other Roman Catholic for that matter. (I have Romanist family members.) If I did dislike Roman Catholics, then I would not be wasting my time here. I have so many other things I should and need to be doing rather than typing words on a screen to people who are (it appears) not listening. But it is the fact that I am compelled to share the truth with you (e.g. the imminent danger of your idolatry and the amazing grace of the Lord Jesus Christ) which is why I have taken the time to correspond.

    My heart breaks for the path I see you on, and nothing Lyn said about that path was incorrect (although you may be offended by the Word of God she was presenting to you). Do not look at us as your enemies for telling you the hard truth (Galatians 4:16). Do not take it as an offense.

    We would be just as bold in telling you to get out of a burning house. If we didn’t care, we would remain silent. And that, my dear Caroline, is the ultimate hate for an enemy: not warning them of their impending doom, but keeping them sleeping in a burning house, or blissfully skipping along the path where the bridge ahead is out, or drinking from the glass that contains poison, or continuing in their idolization of Mary which makes them an enemy of the very God they think they’re serving.

    Please take our pleas from God’s Word as a warning from God Himself (which is what the Bible is . . . His words to mankind). He is a God who wants Caroline’s complete love and devotion; not a love and devotion shared between you and one (or more) of the millions of mere human beings that He has used throughout the history of mankind. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with ALL your heart, strength, soul, and mind. You cannot do that if your devotion is divided between Him and a deceased human being whether it be Mary, Moses, Abraham, David, Peter, or Paul.

    Give Him a pure and single minded love and devotion. Anything less is idolatry, and as I showed you earlier, God has declared that idolaters will NOT find themselves in heaven, but will be cast into the lake of fire (1 Cor. 6:9-11 and Rev. 21:8).

    I beg you, I beseech you, turn from your divided devotion and turn directly to the Lord Jesus Christ. If you do that, and in the end we were wrong, you will have lost nothing, and you can then venerate Mary throughout all eternity. However, (and that’s a big however), if we were right, your continued idolatry will have condemn you for all eternity. I sincerely do not want to see that.

    In love,
    – Pilgrim

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  100. When people refuse to listen to the truth of God’s word, there is no sense in wasting any more time with them. They don’t come here for truth, they come here to spread their propaganda. They need to move on, and so do we. God calls us to present truth and be faithful, but He does not expect us to waste oodles of time on the matter. Error has been refuted with His word, and it has been ignored and rejected. There is no point in continuing to beat this dead horse.

    Lyn

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  101. Pilgrim and Lyn, you are right in that it has reached a point where we have said everything.
    Thank you for your time and patience with Brianna and myself.
    I hope to see you all in Heaven one day. Regardless of our differences.
    God bless and keep you all and may His peace reign in your hearts.

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  102. carolinefives said “I hope to see you all in Heaven one day. Regardless of our differences.”

    Yours is a fools hope that you would do well cast into the wind. The God of the Bible has vowed that you will perish in hell except you repent. May the fear of God drive you far from your idolatry that you might find rest in a true, saving knowledge of Christ before that day.

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  103. I’ve been lurking on this discussion for a few days now, and would like to chime in…
    My blog name will give it away entirely, I am Roman Catholic.
    I love my Faith, and will not leave it. If what you say is true, and I am worshiping idols by loving my Heavenly Mother, then I know God will see the honest, open, loving sincerity in my heart, and He is my Judge.
    Because most of you disagree with my, Caroline’s, and Brianna’s beliefs, I invite you to pray for us. We are sinners, and most definitely need all the help we can get. We will also pray for you.
    I believe an end has been reached, and no one will profit from further debate. Our beliefs will not be changed. I pray God will bless all who’ve participated in this discussion, and bring to our hearts His Sacred Truth.
    Pax, Leah

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  104. “My blog name will give it away entirely, I am Roman Catholic.

    Jim: So your devotion is to an organization, mary, and may things

    “I love my Faith, and will not leave it. ”

    Jim: That is because you do not love Jesus

    “by loving my Heavenly Mother, ”

    The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger.
    Is it I whom they provoke? declares the LORD. Is it not themselves, to their own shame? Jeremiah 7:18-19

    “Our beliefs will not be changed. I pray God will bless all who’ve participated in this discussion, and bring to our hearts His Sacred Truth.”

    Do not give up hope yet. God can change the most wicked, vile religious heart by His grace, including yours.

    ——————————–

    “It is hard for a man to let go a hope of heaven on which he hath once allowed himself to lay hold, and which he hath retained for a considerable time. True conversion is a rare thing. But that men should be brought off from a false hope of conversion – after they are once settled and established in it and have continued in it for some time – is much more rare.” -Jonathon Edwards

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  105. Mary’s Ghillie
    Your faith that you say you love is not from God {faith, like salvation, must be gifted to the sinner by God – read Ephesians 2:8-9}, it is not solely in Christ, and will serve you no purpose. Mary is not anyone’s heavenly mother, she was a sinner, saved by grace, and like all sinners saved, now is with Jesus. She is not special, she does not stand out in heaven, and would never ever want anyone to exalt or worship her.
    The Bible is God’s word of truth; nowhere does the Bible command Mary worship or praying to her. The model prayer the Lord Himself gives us starts out, “Our Father….” Yet, the Catholic church usurps the Bible’s authority with their man-made traditions and deems the Bible as irrelevant { http://sueliz1.wordpress.com/2012/01/08/catholic-church-no-longer-swears-by-truth-of-the-bible/ }. Praise God for the Reformation.

    When religious organizations stray from the truth of God’s word, the end result will be apostasy. This is exactly why the Lord Jesus warned His disciples in Matthew 24:4, “”See to it that no one misleads you.” I strongly encourage all who follow a religion rather than Christ alone to compare what they have been taught with God’s word…if you cannot find their teachings in God’s word, then you have been misled.

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  106. I am an ex-Catholic that was educated at a well known Catholic university. The RCC does teach Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix. A professor from the college I attended is trying to get Rome to officially make Mary as Co-Redemptrix dogma. Right now it is not official dogma, yet still taught somewhat.

    http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/

    I believe it will happen in due time. When it does, we can watch end-times realities to pick up speed. The RCC wants to unite all religions through Mary, especially Islam.

    If anyone wants to shudder and have a peek into the future, listen to some of these radio shows. Please witness the truth of the Gospel to Catholics.

    http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/Mother_of_All_Peoples_Radio/MOAP_Radio_Archives/

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  107. I know that we left this discussion a while ago, but I cannot help thinking on this in my spare time.

    Forgive me for coming back to it, but I wanted to leave some of my thoughts.

    One of the prayers that we pray (asking Mary’s intercession) is the Hail Mary.
    Its words are “Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” — I know that the former sentence comes from scripture, and so that must mean that is it true.
    She is full of grace, as she bore Grace Himself in her womb.
    Elizabeth calls her blessed among women at the visitation when John the baptist leaps in her womb in the presence of the Savior of the world growing in Mary’s womb.
    Another thing that I have been pondering is the question of if what you say is true, then Mary was a sinner–Why would God have His only begotten Son, the Savior of the world, come into this world through an impure vessel? It doesn’t make sense to me. Purity is something that I know every man and woman should strive for. We are all born with the stain of sin. But Mary, as I have been taught, was not, because God meant for her to be a pure vessel (the new ark) for the new covenant in Jesus. Why would God have His Son, true Man and true God, come into this world through a broken sinner. For me, it somehow tarnishes the perfection of Christ. And I know that this is not true, because Christ is the epitome of perfection.

    Lyn, another thing that I have been thinking about, is the use of correct wording. Even for synonyms, there is a difference in the definitions of all words. And then there is a creation of a dialect in which words can have a different meaning than it does for those outside of this dialect.
    I would like to point out a couple points where I think that this has happened.
    1. Above you state that Mary would never ever want anyone to worship or exalt her. This is true, Mary would NEVER want anyone to worship her over her Son. She loves her Son. I would like to point out again that true Catholics (well-informed, living lives according to the doctrines/teachings of the church) would NEVER worship Mary in place of Christ, or exalt her to the same status of Christ.
    2. As far as the co-redemptrix status goes, I believe it is well-meant, but I find a flaw with it. It raises Mary to the status of being, in a way, equal to Christ. I think that should this title ever be used with Mary, it should be used cautiously and explained in a way where Mary’s suffering at the foot of the cross can be used for our example, that we will have sufferings in life, and will find sorrow in life, and should find it in the sufferings of our Lord on the cross, and have Mary as an example of that, but it should not mean that she has equal power as Christ to redeem/save our souls, by herself.
    3. Concerning dialects, or perhaps another good word to use would be slang. I would like to address the idea that Catholics pray to Mary. I assure you, we do not pray to her. I think that the term has become interchangeable with asking for her intercession, and it gets confusing to people who do not understand that key point of Catholocism. I know that I have used it myself, but I do not mean that I pray directly to Mary, but rather, I am asking her for her intercession, to pray for me on my behalf, so that I can come to know Christ more fully. Just as I would ask my friends, family, you, Leah, Brianna, or any of these people to pray for me (as I think I may have already, but I know that Leah has.) Does this make sense?

    Perhaps one of you could help me with my questions, and please do comment on my thoughts regarding the use of wording and dialect/slang.

    I do not wish to beat a dead horse, I do not think I am with this comment, but am rather asking for clarification on some terms, and clarifying other terms for you.
    Thank you.

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  108. Dear Caroline.

    Shalom.

    You pray Hail Mary, but you also pray:
    Hail Holy Queen
    Mother of Mercy,
    OUR LIFE, OUR SWEETNESS, OUR HOPE…

    (Btw, this is a prayer TO MARY) You said you don’t pray TO her, but you do. This Hail Holy Queen prayer is said with every rosary, and I know because I prayed it for 38 years.The fact you believe she hears you, means she shares in God’s attributes as being omnipresent and omnipotent. Mary is a created being, she does not have God’s attributes.
    About the Haily Holy Queen prayer..
    Only Jesus is your life, sweetness and hope. Not Mary. The only Queen of Heaven in Scripture, is a goddess. Because the Israelites prayed to this entity, they were destroyed for their disobedience of praying to anyone but Him:

    New International Version (©1984)
    The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?” (Jeremiah 44:19)

    New International Version (©1984)
    Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see.” (Jeremiah 44:23)

    The interesting thing is, the worshipers complained because when they prayed to the queen of heaven, everything went well and their prayers were answered. The demon answered them to keep them from the Lord and to ultimately destroy them.

    Mary was blessed among women, but not above women.

    When you say that Jesus needed to be in a pure vessel, you make no sense even according to your own religion. You who believe that Jesus is present body, blood, soul and divinity in communion, take ‘him’ into your own sinful body. Is He then not in an impure vessel? You? Jesus also comes to live inside of us as believers, and still we sin, but He continues to live in us.
    Mary was full of grace, filled with the Holy Spirit, as was Stephen. Scripture also says that Stephen was full of grace:

    Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.(Acts 6:8)
    Please do not listen to the false demons and entities at Fatima and Lourdes, but instead adhere to the Word that will never lead you astray.
    In Him.
    Sue

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  109. There is a continual claim that praying to and bowing before Mary is not idolatry, it is veneration–same difference. Here is more of idolatrous worship from Mary followers -http://watcherslamp.blogspot.com/2012/02/marian-shrine-in-vietnam-attracts.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WatchersLamp+%28Watcher%27s+Lamp%29

    From the article – ‘Father Hoang said Tuesday even followers of other faiths have come to pray in front of the big white Marian statue, which stands on a hillside overlooking the sea.
    Many of them who have been cured of serious diseases or ailments, return to the Church or convert to Catholicism, he added.’

    The Bible says there is ONE Lord, ONE faith, etc. {Ephesians 4:5}. The claim of being ‘cured’ is eerie, for Satan has power to do signs and wonders {2 Thess. 2:9}. And what is the end result of being ‘healed’? Do they praise God? NO!!! Silly rabbit, they convert to Catholicism! It’s all centered around the Catholic church, not Jesus Christ or God’s grace. This is a dead religion that uses just enough Scripture to mix with its poisonous teachings to seem legit to those who reject truth and love tradition, rituals and works {the Bible calls this a delusion}. The Lord’s return is drawing ever so close, all that is transpiring around us clearly points to His soon return.

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  110. Sue, there is more to the Hail, Holy Queen, as you know.
    …turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
    O clement, o loving, o sweet virgin Mary, pray for us O holy mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
    The end all and be all of the hail, holy queen is to recognize that yes, Mary is blessed, she is loving, she is sweet, but she is not Christ, and so we ask her to pray for us that we may be brought to Christ, that we may be worthy of Christ.

    You also make a point with the Eucharist. In the moment that we accept the Eucharist into our body, we become a tabernacle for our Lord. The very moment it touches our tongue, we are forgiven of our venial sins. The Catholic Church teaches that if one has mortal sin on his(or her) soul, that they should not receive the Eucharist until they have gone to confession. Also, there is the baptism where we are forgiven of our original sin.
    You do make a point however. I think that I will consult a priest or religious about the matter.

    Though, Steven did not bear forth the Son of God. –my thinking on that. :] Though I promise you that I will find the answers I am looking for. (and in doing so, I believe I will be asking some hard questions.)

    Lyn,
    My confusion/questioning continues, because these people ARE healed miraculously. If Mary were not to be praised/venerated/adored would these people who have gone to this shrine still have been healed?
    ah–I went back and re-read what you wrote. You somewhat addressed this.
    But the Catholic Church is centered around Christ.
    Have you ever been to a Mass? Even just to observe what we do?
    It is so beautiful, because it is completely Christ-centered. We ask Mary and the angels and the saints to pray for us in it, but it is Christ centered, because the Mass is heaven on Earth. The Eucharist (as Sue says) is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and we kneel down before Him as the priest offers His sacrifice. (the priest during this time is inpersona Christe (in the person of Christ) –which is why the Catholic church just made changes to the translations of the Roman Missal. Instead of replying “and also with you.” to the priest we say “and with your spirit” because we are recognizing that Christ’s spirit is in the priest during the entirety of Mass, and especially during the Eucharistic prayers. Did you know that once the priest starts the Eucharistic prayers he cannot leave the church/alter until he has finished saying them? (I learned this just this past September). Even if there is a fire, tornado, etc. the priest cannot leave until he has finished.
    My faith is so beautiful, and completely Christ-centered. Yes, we have Mary, and we have the Saints and the angels, but that is like 1/1000 of what our faith consists of.
    I cannot begin to tell you about the beauty of the faith that I have grown up with.
    And I’m only just starting too. I have so much more to learn.

    During this past Sunday at mass, I was listening to the Gospel being read, and it was the story of the healing of the paralytic in Mark, where they lower the paralytic from the roof because they cannot reach Jesus because of the crowd. People question Christ after He forgives the man of his sins. They say that only God has the power to forgive sins and they say he blasphemes. Jesus then says that it would be just as easy to say to the man to rise up and take up his mat and walk home. He commands the man to do so. And at that moment I thought about how any man could question that Christ was not the Son of God, because he healed that man and forgave him of his sins. If only God has the power to do that, then Christ MUST be God/the Son of God/true God and true Man. How could anyone ever not believe in that?

    I’m sorry, I have gone on much longer than I had wished to in the first place. I fear that I’m leaving you with even more questions to answer.

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  111. Dear Caroline,

    Are you aware there were no priests in the New Testament? None of the apostles were priest. To be a priest, you needed to be born a Levite. There was no laying on of hands to be a priest. There was only the priesthood of ALL believers, but not a ritual Christian priesthood. Even now, the Jewish priesthood is diminished because there is no temple for sacrifices.
    Infant baptism is a farce. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Lady Gaga and Madonna were all baptized Catholics. Baptism is symbolic of dying with Christ (being emerged in the water) and rising with Christ in Resurrection (coming out of the water). You are first saved by believing in Jesus, and then baptized.
    Sins are forgiven by believing on the finished work of Christ, not by eating ‘jesus’ in bread. Jesus, in His one incarnation is sitting at the right hand of the Father. There is only ONE incarnation, but the RCC says He is also in millions of hosts, which would then mean there are millions of incarnations.
    My heart goes out to you dear Caroline, because you are so focused on the church and on Mary. Mary and the church can not save you. Only Jesus can. The RCC puts you on a maze to get to Jesus by telling you to go to Mary, Saints, Mass, holy days, and on and on. The Gospel is simple and powerful. Accept Him alone, without all these “extras” that are not needed. When you have have Jesus you do NOT NEED Mary, Saints and everything else. His Word feeds you and you are satisfied. He fills your thirst and hunger. Mary will never do that. Mary is not omnipotent and she can not hear you. Read the bible and ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the truth of the Gospel.

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  112. Sue,
    You are right when you say that Baptism is dying with Christ and rising with Him. But it is so much more –Baptism comes from the Bible—Christ Himself was baptized in the Jordan River. But why we have infant baptism comes from the Jewish tradition of circumcision, and also that back then, when a family converted, the whole family converted and were baptized—this included infants and children. It is also because baptism rids us of our original sin—it forgives us that sin and gives us grace, through this grace we can obtain perfection. BUT, just because we are baptized doesn’t mean that it is the end all and be all of our relationship with Christ. We can still choose to turn away from Christ and away from the grace that He is continually giving us. This is through Mortal Sin—and when we have this mortal sin on our souls, we are not in a state of grace and should not receive the Eucharist. Hebrews 10:26-27 states: “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.” This can be interpreted that if we receive the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin, we are merely digging our own grave and we condemn ourselves to oblivion.
    Going back to Baptism, those people that you listed—Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Lady Gaga, and Madonna—do they define Catholicism and Baptism? Though we are affected by their choices as they are all part of the body of Christ as we all are—their choice to do terrible things or lead lives that do not coincide with the Catholic Church’s teachings is their own choice. Just because I have been baptized does not mean that I am going to turn out like Hitler, Stalin, or Mussolini and inflict terrible wrongs on people and it does not mean that I will automatically turn away from the Church and not live a good and pure life like Lady Gaga and Madonna. In fact—it is through my baptism that I am called to live a good and pure life and coincide with the Church and accept the grace that my Lord gives to me at my Baptism and every day of my life and each time I receive the Sacraments.
    The Eucharist, as I said before, is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Instituted at the Last Supper (and also talked about in John 6: 41-58 (and notice that there is no mention of Jesus saying that His words here are symbolic in any way.)) This is Jesus, flesh and blood, and the Mass where we celebrate the sacrifice that Jesus made for us on the cross—His redemption of our souls and bringing of our salvation through Him—this Eucharist is part of His work—which is not finished until He comes back at the end of time. He fights for our very souls every day—does this sound like finished work?
    You are right again when you say that there is only one incarnation. The millions of hosts that are consecrated at Mass are not new incarnations. These hosts are the same Christ. Not a new Jesus made every time. There is one Jesus—His Flesh and Blood make up the Body of Christ in the Eucharist. Also, I am focused on the Church which is in full communion with one another in the very body of Christ. Where Christ is the Head—the Church is His body. So my focus is in Him. My relationship with Mary is that of a familial one. I love her as I love my own mother. I do this because Christ gave us to Mary, and Mary to us to become our Mother at the foot of the cross. We take the Son of God as our Brother, God as our Father, so why not take the Mother of God as our own as well? Even in the 4th commandment we are commanded to honor our father and our mother—I am fulfilling this commandment in the Church. When I have accepted Jesus, I have also accepted His family—His body (the Church, and all of His Children on Earth) and also the body of Christ that is in Heaven—those that have obtained eternal salvation—the Saints. I am merely accepting everything that Christ has given to me when I accepted Him.
    I would also like to address a matter that was revealed to me by one of the campus ministers at my local church and Catholic Student Center. Catholics define prayer in a very different way than most other Christians/Protestants. We view prayer as more of a dialogue—a conversation with God, Jesus, Mary, the Saints, etc. This is our relationship with Christ and prayer is how we nurture it and allow it to grow deeper. I am led to understand that most other Christians and Protestants view prayer as worship—so I can understand how easily misconceptions can be made. There are many, many differences between Catholicism and other types of Christianity—and I respect those differences. My intent is to merely inform you of the misconceptions that I can understand to be made easily about the Catholic Church. However, this is my faith—the faith of millions—and I am proud to profess it.
    Pax. Ad Majorem Dei Gloria
    -Caroline

    p.s. A few other verses that I would like to point out to you about priests/the priesthood/Levites are Hebrews 7:6-28 and Hebrews 9: 11-12.

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  113. caroline,
    You say ‘when a family converted, the whole family converted and were baptized—this included infants and children.’- I ask you, how is an infant able to hear the Gospel and respond in an understanding way?

    Then you said ‘It is also because baptism rids us of our original sin—it forgives us that sin and gives us grace, through this grace we can obtain perfection. ‘ – Oh my, why did Christ go to the cross if all we needed was a good dunking? Grace comes from God through Christ, not through baptism. You cannot see the error of what you’ve been taught, you think you must do something to rid yourself of sin and obtain grace and perfection, you are in error. That is why you must read God’s word, verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 tell you exactly how you are saved. These verses have been posted repeatedly, but instead of reading them and asking God for understanding, you continue to respond with man made teachings. If you cannot back what you believe solely with the word of God, you are deceived and deluded because what you believe cannot be verified by God’s word.

    You quoted Hebrews 10:26-27 out of context; the verses you mentioned speak of apostates, not true born again believers. Here is commentary from Matthew Henry…
    ” From the description he gives of the sin of apostasy. It is sinning wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, sinning wilfully against that truth of which we have had convincing evidence. This text has been the occasion of great distress to some gracious souls; they have been ready to conclude that every wilful sin, after conviction and against knowledge, is the unpardonable sin: but this has been their infirmity and error. The sin here mentioned is a total and final apostasy, when men with a full and fixed will and resolution despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour, – despise and resist the Spirit, the only sanctifier, – and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life; and all this after they have known, owned, and professed, the Christian religion, and continue to do so obstinately and maliciously. This is the great transgression: it seems to refer to the law concerning presumptuous sinners, Num_15:30, Num_15:31. They were to be cut off.”

    From Philippians 1:6, “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” God does not start something then not finish it. If you understood that salvation is all of the Lord, you would understand God does not change His mind about those He saves, He will bring His redeemed people into His kingdom; His people do not continue in willful sin {Read the book of 1 John}, and those who do claim to be saved yet sin repeatedly prove they do not belong to Christ and have not been born again.

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  114. Lyn,
    I will ponder what else you have written here, but I wanted to comment on the second thing you said. I perhaps could have phrased it better. I do not mean that the grace from baptism ALONE saves us. It is the grace that comes from all of the sacraments–the grace that comes from God through these sacraments that saves us (but not just through the sacraments, they are only part of the “recipe” for salvation). We were given free will–and so we have the choice to accept the grace or not.

    Another thing, which I ask you to clarify– in your last paragraph– could you clarify what you mean when you say “if you understood that salvation is all of the Lord, you would understand God does not change His mind about those He saves…”
    God wants us all to be saved. But isn’t it our choice in the end? We should live good and pure lives according to His word and do good works, but does everyone do that? So, does God decide that some are not saved?
    And I sin, I try not to with all of my heart, but I still do. And I have been told that I have a wonderful faith life, and I do believe that one day eventually I will go to Heaven. But even though I know about sin, and I know that I have the chance at salvation (and one day hope to obtain it) I still sin. So does that mean that I do not belong to Christ?

    I will write more later when I have thought about what you have said and read everything you suggested to me.

    I also think that the next post I make will be the last. However, if you would like to continue with our discussion. I can give you my email address.

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  115. Caroline,

    You ask “So, does God decide that some are not saved?” Go through your bible and see all the times ‘elect’ and ‘chosen’ are mentioned. Here are some examples, from 2 Thessalonians 2:13, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth”…Ephesians 1:4, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love”…1 Peter 2:4, “To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious”.

    If you understood the doctrine of radical depravity, which the bible teaches…that all of mankind is evil, wicked, dead in sin {Ephesians 2:1, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins” – “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved;” Ephesians 2:5} and unable to do anything to contribute or bring about their salvation, you would understand that God chooses a people for Himself that He saves. These verses answer your question “But isn’t it our choice in the end?” No it isn’t, dead sinners cannot respond to the Gospel apart from grace. No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them {read John 6:44}. We are dead in sin and unable to choose anything but our sin; do dead people rise from the grave? Spiritually dead sinners are no more able to respond apart from God’s grace than a corpse is able to rise from the grave. God saves, by grace, He regenerates, or rebirths the sinner. He renews the mind and heart {read Ezekiel 36:26-27 and notice the ‘I’s in the verse, that will tell you who does it all…God}.

    My prayer is that you will, by God’s grace, come to an understanding of His word. We cannot even read and comprehend the word of God apart from His granting us understanding {this is verified in Luke 24:45}.

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  116. Caroline,

    I am an ex-Catholic and have full knowledge what the RCC teaches. I sat in Scott Hahn’s class in Franciscan University.
    RCC dogma contradicts the scriptures. The bible does not enforce cannibalism that says in order to have life you need to eat a piece of flesh.It says all that believe on Him are saved.

    The bible explains you must FIRST have FAITH and then be baptized. It does not erase ‘original sin’. False infant baptism produces false believers. Circumcision was a sign, a cut in the flesh. We are to be cut in the heart by believing in Him and trusting in His finished work on the cross. Jesus Himself said “it is finished” He SITS at the right hand to show it is FINISHED. But the RCC says it’s not finished and falsely offers the one time sacrifice over and over.

    Caroline, His blood is enough to cover you. You say you hope to make heaven some day. The RCC steals joy from Catholics by telling them they must pay for their sins in the contrived Purgatory.How is this Good News? Wasn’t His blood enough to forgive ALL your sins? You can’t pay for them yourself. He did it all. That is the joy and amazing grace of the gospel. The great exchange.The RCC says all that believe they are saved by faith alone are anathema. Your good works, church attendance and rosaries will not get you to heaven. No one will be able to boast in heaven. Believing and trusting in Him Alone recognizing your complete need for a Savior is what saves.
    Sue

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  117. Lyn,
    Thank you. I pray that I come to an understanding of God’s word as well. I do not think I will ever leave my Catholic faith, because this is where I have found my God, and where I believe I have my salvation. I am glad that I got to meet you through this blog. I will always keep you in my prayers.

    Sue,
    John 6: 48-58
    ” I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” ”
    –But the bible does say that unless you eat and drink of the flesh and blood of the Son of Man, you will not have life within you, and you will not live forever.

    This is what St. Justin Martyr had to say about the Eucharist in his writings in “First Apology”
    “And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. ”

    I don’t know if you read any more of the posts prior to the discussion we have gotten into, but a woman, Brianna, posted. These are a few of her blog posts that tell what Catholicism says on the Eucharist (I am posting these not just for you, but for others who read this as well.)
    http://ourladyslamp.blogspot.com/2012/02/more-than-just-bread-and-wine-part-1_05.html
    http://ourladyslamp.blogspot.com/2012/02/more-than-bread-and-wine-part-2-jesus_6232.html
    http://ourladyslamp.blogspot.com/2012/02/more-than-bread-and-wine-part-3-pauls_05.html
    http://ourladyslamp.blogspot.com/2012/02/more-than-bread-and-wine-part-4_05.html
    http://ourladyslamp.blogspot.com/2012/02/more-than-bread-and-wine-part-5_05.html
    (I urge you, please read these. They are really great posts that use scripture to help gain a better understanding of the Eucharist.) (oh, she also addressed the issue that you mentioned of the one time sacrifice being done over and over. I think it’s in part 2.)

    Here is a link to the index of the Catechism, it is on the letter E, scroll down the page for the links to the paragraphs about the Eucharist. I was going to post them, but then I saw how many there were, and I couldn’t decide which ones to choose.
    http://old.usccb.org/catechism/text/e.shtml

    You are right Sue, His blood is enough to forgive my sins. He does forgive me my sins, when I receive the sacrament of reconciliation. I am forgiven of my sins. However, I still have the stain of sin on my soul, and I still have concupiscence (the tendency to sin). So it is in purgatory that I am purified of this. I would not want to enter Heaven with that stain on my soul. I would rather be purified of it, and then enter into Heaven. All of those in purgatory will gain salvation. They will go to Heaven. You are right, my good works, my rosaries, and my church attendance will not get me to Heaven, but they’ll help all right. It is through my FAITH, my belief in God, and through my good works, my prayer life, and my church attendance (and reception of the Eucharist, and the other sacraments) that I will get into Heaven. This is how I choose to spend my days, I believe that I will receive eternal salvation because of these things, and because of what Christ sacrificed for me over 2000 years ago. I do need Him, I need my faith in Him, because without it I am nothing. My faith is what defines me. I am a Catholic.
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made.Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    Thank you all for your time, and for helping me answer my questions. I hope that maybe I have helped you answer some of your own, maybe ones you didn’t even know you had.
    I think that this will be my last post, though if you wish to discuss it further, I can be reached at CarolineAAdams@gmail.com (notice the two A’s there.)
    Thank you so much for your firm and strong faith.
    Peace and Blessings to you all. You are in my prayers.

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  118. Dear Caroline.

    The bible also says Jesus is a door, a vine, the cornerstone. Do you think he is a real door or real vine or rock?

    Caroline. Jesus IS our manna from heaven, but that doesn’t mean He comes as a baked good flying down from the sky. He is a door, yet not made of wood. The vine, without leaves, the cornerstone, not made of granite.

    You said:
    –But the bible does say that unless you eat and drink of the flesh and blood of the Son of Man, you will not have life within you, and you will not live forever.
    My comment:
    What about the thief on the cross. He did not eat physical flesh, yet due to his faith, was promised paradise.This contradicts your interpretation of John 6.
    Eating and drinking Him, is coming to Him and believing in Him.
    He is not talking about a sort of cannibalism. We feed on the Word. The scriptures.

    Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'” Matthew 4:4

    Notice how the word is a sort of food we are nourished from to LIVE.

    You said:
    You are right, my good works, my rosaries, and my church attendance will not get me to Heaven, but they’ll help all right.

    My reply:
    NO THEY WONT. You can not ADD to Christ’s perfect atonement Caroline. This is wear surrender comes in. You need to get to a place where you realize that there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO. NOTHING. TO SAVE YOURSELF. NOT ONE ROSARY, GOOD WORK OR CHURCH ATTENDANCE WILL SAVE YOU. When you realize you are completely helpless before a holy God and that all your works are filthy rags, You then cry out to Jesus to save you. Him alone. Not Mary, a priest, the RCC, the Saints. Only Him.
    Isaiah 64:6

    6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
    we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
    (end of scripture)
    It is then you will have joy unspeakable and a free heart. You can not be free in Christ when you are bound to church attendance. and adding to His finished work, because it will NEVER BE ENOUGH. There will always be something more you must DO to be saved.
    As of now, you are reliant on priests to be forgiven of your sins.You need mediators to get to Jesus when there is only one. One high priest that is your ADVOCATE before the Father. Yet Rome says Mary is your advocate. No no no. The veil was torn, Caroline, we can enter into a relationship with the Father because of Jesus. We don’t need priests anymore, that is why Jesus is the one High priest and only priest. You don’t need Mary.
    You only need to surrender to Him alone.
    In my prayers with love,
    Sue

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  119. I have to comment on Caroline’s misinterpretation of Christ’s words; Caroline, you state ‘–But the bible does say that unless you eat and drink of the flesh and blood of the Son of Man, you will not have life within you, and you will not live forever.’
    The bible forbids the drinking of blood in animals {see Leviticus 17:10-14}; the bible also states what man can eat {see Genesis 9:1-6} and forbids the shedding of blood. In order to eat someone, you would have to kill them first, right? This is sin and contrary to God’s word, so when Jesus said to eat His flesh and drink His blood, He certainly did not mean this in a literal sense. He was speaking of His crucifixion, the giving of Himself as a sacrifice for sin and sinners believing solely in His finished work on the cross, trusting only in Christ for redemption and forgiveness of sins. Christ was speaking symbolically, not literally, of His death, burial and resurrection for the propitiation of sins of all who believe.

    I pray God will bring you to an understanding of this, and other misunderstandings you’ve been taught by the Roman Catholic Church Caroline. May He be gracious to you.

    In Christ,
    lyn

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  120. I’ll glad with this Post I started to have a debate with devout Catholic about this Dogma things and when I told that guy that you Catholic are idolaters he will deny to simply with honor her and he again said you Protestant don’t give honor to Mary I then wanted so bible scripures to support his claim he can no longer give one

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  121. Dear the Pilgrim, (sorry this got lost well over a year ago, but hopefully someone is still interested in “it’s all about mary”.)
    And there is “silence so profound, the whole valley echoes with the sound” – from the poet William Wordsworth.Guest
    A long time ago – ‘twas in the 1950’s when we first heard the inspirational Gospel songs of George Beverly Shea. One, we adopted as we made our nuptial vows is still our favourite to this day as over the years we have had to frequently, go on retreat in the Catholic way, to the “Beautiful Garden of Prayer”. There we have found Mary our Mother, and of course, the Lord Jesus Christ is always with her, just as the Scriptures proclaim in the annunciation greeting of the Angel Gabriel –“the Lord is with you”.
    No doubt then, that your foregone conclusion capability will confirm for you, that we would be beset by the infirmities/agues of age and so, it has been some while before a further contribution can be offered to progress our discussion.
    But anyway, one other song of the now venerable centenarian George B. Shea, has these opening lines, “when I shall come to the end of my way – when I shall rest at the close of life’s day” and these prompt me to make some haste to make reply.Log In
    Quoting now from your Statement No.1 – “In fact, Scripture records the way Jesus handled the first attempt to elevate Mary’s status. In Luke 11:27-28 a woman in the crowd tried to draw attention away from Christ and to Mary (what the RCC has perfected) but Jesus corrected her saying, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and do it”. End of quote.

    1. In my reading endeavours, the Scriptures do not record anywhere “that it is a fact that this is the first attempt to elevate Mary’s status”, as you have stated.
    2. How then is it possible for anyone to assume that at “this point in time – per Tanya C”, that Mary has “no status”, such that a first attempt needs to be made to elevate her?
    3. In Genesis, it was God who first established the “woman’s status” by announcing her, and bestowing upon her, the Sacred Seed that is Jesus Christ. God also decreed her eternal protection and preservation from the wiles of Nahash, whose head will be crushed by the “Seed” of the woman. Can you explain why this divine intervention is not an elevation of the woman’s status?
    And in good time, the Woman – in – Genesis, was confirmed by God to be Mary, according to the Angel’s announcement in the Annunciation scene.
    Is Mary’s status not “elevated” again here, by another direct intervention of the Holy Spirit’s “shekinah to overshadow her”? How is it possible for this most awesome event in salvation history to be so easily dismissed so that it is not an “elevation” of Mary’s status?
    4. With regards to the “woman from the crowd”, it is reasonable to say that she was a Jewish person. Therefore, in respect to the tradition of the people in those days, we may say also that this particular woman was very bold to shout so loudly in the company of men – “blessed is the woman who gave birth and nursed thee”.
    Would it not be wiser to consider that this woman had received a powerful inspirational impulse from the Holy Spirit to speak out in this way? How else could she know? By what power and authority could she declare so courageously such a “truth”?
    5. Do you mean to say that when Jesus Christ heard the woman, He became annoyed because what she had said was NOT true? How is this possible for the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, to declare a truth that is not acceptable to Him? Surely we should be here in “fear and trembling of blasphemy” to put Jesus Christ at odds with His Holy Spirit, the Paraclete.
    Yet again, Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary is true God and True Man as His genealogy is traced in Scripture over 42 generations from Abraham, the father of Jacob. And therefore we can see that in Mary’s Magnificat, it is the Will of the Father that Jesus Christ will follow the command that “all generations will call me blessed”.
    6. And now you too, very boldly say that the RCC is perfect in its efforts to elevate Mary. Well, thank you very much indeed, as this revelation must be a product that is most becoming of a beautiful mind, such that we will be moved along very nicely to look more closely at the words of reply from Jesus Christ – “blessed rather, are those who hear the word of God and obey it”.
    Two good questions may be raised now – can Jesus Christ positively want to say here that Mary, His Mother is NOT blessed? And does Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary want to say here that you are more blessed than His Mother when you hear/obey the Word of God?
    My answer to both questions is “no”, because Mary is “the first and the most perfect disciple of her son, Jesus Christ”, as declared by Pope Paul VI, on behalf of the Church – the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
    Sincerely, Nik A Morris

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  122. Dear Lyn,

    Quoting now –
    “Lyn
    February 27, 2012 at 10:01 am
    I have to comment on Caroline’s misinterpretation of Christ’s words; Caroline, you state ‘–But the bible does say that unless you eat and drink of the flesh and blood of the Son of Man, you will not have life within you, and you will not live forever.’
    The bible forbids the drinking of blood in animals {see Leviticus 17:10-14}; the bible also states what man can eat {see Genesis 9:1-6} and forbids the shedding of blood. In order to eat someone, you would have to kill them first, right? This is sin and contrary to God’s word, so when Jesus said to eat His flesh and drink His blood, He certainly did not mean this in a literal sense. He was speaking of His crucifixion, the giving of Himself as a sacrifice for sin and sinners believing solely in His finished work on the cross, trusting only in Christ for redemption and forgiveness of sins. Christ was speaking symbolically, not literally, of His death, burial and resurrection for the propitiation of sins of all who believe.

    I pray God will bring you to an understanding of this, and other misunderstandings you’ve been taught by the Roman Catholic Church Caroline. May He be gracious to you.In Christ, lyn. End of quote.

    Much appreciation Lyn for sharing your thoughts.

    You have quoted from the Old Testament . And Caroline had also quoted correctly the words of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

    You then interpreted “authoritatively” the very plain words of Jesus Christ that He – Jesus Christ did not mean what He had said! In fact, you seem to be saying that you know better than Jesus Christ what he means when He speaks – at least on this very important occasion. Therefore even your scholarly authority requires to be documented from Scripture.For Catholics, this authority is formally documented by the Magisterium in the Catechism.

    Also you seem to be saying that Jesus Christ had “lied” but is this not unlike what Jesus Christ had said to His Mother – Mary at the the Cana marriage feast? He actually said “My time has not come” but He then performed the miracle to grant His mother’s prayer.

    Additionally, you seem to forget that Jesus Christ “IS” the fulfilment of all that is said in the Old Testament – “the old order changes into the new”.!

    You say also that Jesus Christ was speaking symbolically – but He did actually say that it is His bodily blood that will be shed. And accordingly as this “Bodily Blood” was actually shed on Calvary then surely it was not a “symbolic body shedding symbolic blood” on the Cross, because this non-symbolic body also spoke several times to finally proclaim “it is finished”!

    Yours sincerely, Nik A Morris

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