273 thoughts on “I’ve had it with Mark Driscoll and his mouth. Now it’s personal!”

1. Amen, Pilgrim. Many “pastors” have forgotten Paul’s method as described in 1 Corinthians 2: “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.”

   Even those speakers who do not cuss, yet try to impress men and goats forget that any faith developed will rest in the “wisdom of men” rather than in the power of God.

   Indeed, shame on the whole category of men pleasers.

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2. Never has there been someone quite like this!

   Solid in his theology (for the most part) and yet seemingly weak in the teaching area of practical holiness/sanctification.

   He really is a stange ‘phenomina’ right now. My goodness.

   I seriously wonder where all this is heading…….I really do.

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3. Driscoll’s spiritual poison is especially deadly because it comes packaged in such an outwardly attractive wrapper.

   It looks like Gospel truth, it smells like Gospel truth, it sounds like Gospel truth, but it is an assassin’s blend of truth mixed with deadly error.

   Driscoll’s perverse style of syncretism – mixing the profane with the sacred – is a veritable apothacary’s blend of just enough Biblical orthodoxy and sinful flesh to lead great hordes of silly men and women laden with sins astray, intoxicating them with his flesh pleasing siren’s song.

   But God will not be mocked, and pride goeth before the fall; and when that house built upon the sand called Mars Hill Church falls, great shall be the fall of it. Perhaps then Driscoll’s enablers, such as John Piper, may finally realize that they share in his spiritual blood-guilt.

   May the One True and Living God, the Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe open Mark Driscoll’s eyes and grant him repentance, reconciliation, and restoration to the praise of His glorious Name, or else turn him over to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme.

   In Christ,
   CD

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4. What is it with this guy. He needs to deeply meditate on Philippians 3:8. He has got an obsession with the baser things in life. Too much being of the world and trying to stay relevant. I wonder does he ever think what kind of impression he is making on those around him, especially new Christians. He also needs to grow up.

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5. I commend you and your wife.

   Mark Driscoll is the new rotten fruit of modern evangelicalism. His sin has totally deceived him. Keeping our young children, grand children, and wives pure from the world has resulted in our family pulling the plug on organized church attendance.

   Mark is but the more obvious fruit, many more are not discovered till the fruit is consumed, and only then is it discovered that at the core is the evilness of a man made, man run religious business.

   Thanks for speaking out.

   Steve Blackwell
   http://www.indywatchman.com

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6. Gutter-talk from a pastor is totally out of line. Thank you and your wife for standing against it.

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7. Your post did not include any Bible verses. Could you point me to where in the Bible it says that the words like Whore, Prostitute or Lesbian should not be spoken of?

   The Bible itself uses the words whore, prostitute and homosexual.

   It seems like you believe that certain topics of Scripture are off limites for christians to talk about? Is that correct?

   This is a not a driscoll-support post, it’s just a question regarding your beliefs.

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8. Trudat:
   
   Your post did not include any Bible verses.
   Really? Did you miss the beginning and end of the post? They were very apropos to the point.
   
   The Bible itself uses the words whore, prostitute and homosexual.
   Context is the key, Trudat. The Bible doesn’t use the terms to be shocking, or even funny like how Driscoll does it. It would be like how preachers who warn of Hell awaiting the sinner sound nothing like Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church. Context is key. Additonally I must be missing that part of the Bible that talks about porn. Judging by the frequency in which Driscoll drones on and on about porn, you’d think half the Bible talked about it.
   
   It seems like you believe that certain topics of Scripture are off limites for christians to talk about? Is that correct?
   Nope. You know exactly what I am talking about, don’t play games.
   Are you going to come here and explain to my four year old about porn, Trudat? Are you going to talk about it to your young kids?

   This is a not a driscoll-support post, it’s just a question regarding your beliefs.
   And your other post supporting/defending Driscoll was not a Driscoll support post either I presume? I find it hard to believe that someone who willingly sits under Driscoll’s teaching, who takes more offense at what Fourpointer said in the other post than what Driscoll says on almost a daily basis, and who takes the time to comment on posts about Driscoll would dare leave a comment in support of Driscoll.
   I mean afterall, every post you’ve ever left on DefCon has been in support of Mark Driscoll, now we’re supposed to believe you’re simply asking a question? Come on.
   
   I recommend you re-read number three above regarding Driscoll defenders (and supporters).

   – The Pilgrim

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9. I personally find it ironic that for a preacher who claims to be “missional”, and thinking about what his audience needs to hear, Driscoll decided to use the language that he did.

   Should Driscoll have used a less shocking example? Yes, probably. But he was talking about husbands oppressing their wives: how is that not shocking in itself? What example should he have used to match the level of outrage that all Christians should show towards such behaviour?

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10. A resounding amen, Pilgrim! Thank you for this post. I am angered greatly at the fact that while we struggle as parents to keep our children from being hit in the face with filth from the world, now we have to worry about the pastor on the radio spewing language and creating sexual images in our children’s minds. I am profoundly disgusted by Driscoll’s mouth, and as a woman I feel degraded by these men who rip the veil from holy things and speak of them flippantly and coarsely. God save us from this kind of “pastor.” Thank you, again.

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11. Let’s pray that Mark Driscoll be used to glorify God. He has so many talents, and clearly a biblical understanding of the Gospel, yet this controversy negates so much of the good work he does. He is clearly speaking to so many, yet if he causes other Christians to stumble, then he needs to pray that God use him in a way that is pleasing to God.

    Also, while I absolutely agree that we need to avoid being shocking for the simple sake of being shocking, I do think it’s important that we not shy away from talking about sexual sin and pornography as the shocking offenses that they are.

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12. The guy in ballard hasn’t changed his tune. The first time I heard him on Street Talk years before MarsHill was founded, one thing that seemed to stand out about him was his bizarre take on what it means to be a man, very blue collar, we used to call them “hard hats”, my generation considered them the enemy of all that was good. Driscoll’s preoccupation with kinky sex is just part of that package, a component in the subculture he identifies with. I don’t get too upset about his language. He shouldn’t be allowed into the pulpit talking like he does, but that is a problem with the church. If the church is sic, it will let loose canons into the pulpit. That’s hardly news. Seattle has had a whole string of loud mouth mega-pastors, some of them have been sexual deviants. The judgement from the “mother’s board”: “When the pastor is always talking sex, you can be sure he is doing more than just talking.”

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13. &y said: “how is that not shocking in itself? What example should he have used to match the level of outrage that all Christians should show towards such behaviour?”

    How about hitting most where it counts? Ex: hubby decides to move family to another state without consulting wife. What does wife do? Scripturally, she submits, but in actuality, many would grumble, fume, and some might refuse to have their lives disrupted.

    The point is submission, not shock. We don’t need to have a vulgar example to illustrate a point.

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14. Dear Ingrid, Mel, C. Sterling, Peg, Indywatchman, Manfred, Mathhew, Corem, and Jude:

    Thank you all for reassuring me that there are still some out there who have not bowed the knee (or drank the Kool Ade).

    To those who erroneously charge me with having a problem with the words in question “because after all, these words are found in the Bible,” allow me to clarify: It’s the usage of those words that I have issue with. We talk about the death of Jesus Christ because “it’s in the Bible” but we don’t (or at least we shouldn’t) handle it lightly. We talk about Hell “because it’s in the Bible” but we don’t treat it flippantly. The same goes for all the other words that Driscoll thinks are so funny.

    My wife knew nothing of him but had enough sense to know his cavalier and juvenile handling of these words was not appropriate.

    And finally, to those Driscoll defenders who thought I was kidding about not allowing you to spread your Driscoll leaven on DefCon any further, allow me to remind you:

    3). All the Driscollite defenders who patrol the internet and swarm blogs such as this to offer excuses for their Golden Calf will have to find another soundboard for their approval of and winking at sin as their comments will no longer be welcome here. I refuse to provide a platform for their calling evil good and good evil.

    This is why your comments have not shown up on this thread (especially the rude ones).

    Wondering how Christianity survived 2,000 years without sex talk from the pulpits,
    – The Pilgrim

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15. Pastor Ben,

    I am a single man… I don’t like it when preachers drag the name of my Lord through the mud, wether it’s blatant or in some crass contextual form. That in itself makes me want to open my mouth. It gets me into trouble with people who have little regard for the Truth or the purity of God’s church.
    Now consider that The Pilgrim IS a MARRIED man with YOUNG CHILDREN! Please understand! This is a case where a man’s bride and small children were literally SLIMED! I praise GOD that here is a real MAN who is willing to take a stand, not only for Christ and His church, but his FAMILY! I respect that! Talk about YELLOW? What about YELLOW American Pastors who refuse to take a stand against the incredible tide of ungodliness that has swept evangelicalism in the last 20 years! I mean a total refusal to take a stand and call a spade a spade! All in the name of Christian “Love.” I am reading through the book of Acts. I am in Acts chapter 23 when Paul came to Jerusalem, where Jewish “christians” waited to do him in! Yes, Paul the apostle, the one who named names like Alexander the coppersmith and many others who subverted the Truth and led many astray, was not quite loved by all his bretheren. When will we start standing with Christ and bear His reproach? When will we quit blending in with the filth of this present evil age! If men continue to fail to take a stand in the American church… then America’s had it, dear brother! It’s not gossip… it’s a call to war!

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16. Some fine men, as usual, are going to be lining up to defend him. Inexplicable. If the defenders were as “solid Biblically” as they claim, every one would condemn his foul obsession and plead with Pastor Driscoll to repent. I won’t hold my breath.

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17. I can’t stand the fact that the Mark D’s of this world are on the air, but… that is the problem we have been taught that “Christian radio” or “Christian tv” is “Christian”.
    about 90% isn’t. It is “American false Chrisitian”.
    Turn It Off and let the “world love it’s own” while they listen to false sheppards calling the false sheep away after thier own (raunchy) voice.

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
    – Jesus

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18. I like listening to things at home…I have young kids. But in January, after having to run for the mouse to click stop or rush to turn down the volume a few times…I can no longer listen to MDs sermons around my children. There are too many inappropriate things said. And yes, there are STILL things that should NOT be jested about and things that should NOT be discussed in mixed audiences or around young children. Mr. Driscoll’s crude sexual innuendo and flippancy toward Jesus and God’s Word sadden me. After I listened to things of his I felt dirty and ashamed. I don’t believe that is how I am supposed to feel after listening to a sermon. Convicted of sin, sure, but that is not what I am talking about. I am saying yucky. I heard him speak at a conference and he said a terribly gross and embarrassing thing and repeated it FIVE OR SIX times – purely for the shock factor. The first time of saying “bloody tampon” wasn’t enough????? He used that as what are good works are – as “filthy rags” – he said that is what the translation is. Which I have a hard time believing since women did not use tampons in Bible times. He could have at least said menstrual rags…but he had to go for the shock value. I should have walked out and am ashamed now that I did not.

    Thank you for this. Thank you for standing up for the women and children especially. Too many men find in Mark a justification for their lingering sin of lust and other sexual sins. They find an example of how to continue in “childish behavior and speech” and the church today needs men especially to mature.

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19. Ben M.

    This was just a short article. Much has been written about Driscoll, who is not only a blight on the body of Christ, but unfortunately only representative of a larger problem.

    Here’s your homework. Carefully read these articles and report back to the class.
    (watch URL wrap)

    John MacArthur on Driscoll

    http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4168

    http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4169

    http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4172

    http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4174

    Phil Johnson on Driscoll

    http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4082

    http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4084

    http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4085

    Baptist Press on Driscoll

    http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=30700

    Driscoll on Driscoll

    https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dg4fc37g_6fjdd38c8&hl=en

    Just reading these articles has tarnished my brain.

    -Bill

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20. You know, I generally prefer studying out of the ESV. But there are some expressions in the KJV that I really like.

    One of them is a phrase, “gird yourself like a man.” It’s found in a number of places but offhand I remember our God saying it to Job when He was going to ask Job questions. I view the phrase to be something like “put on your big boy pants.”

    I wish Mark’s defenders would put on the big boy pants, and become men. Men who do not abide the mockery of their Lord, men who do not abide a filthy-mouthed charlatan, men who call it as it is. MD speaks nothing like Christ, nothing like the apostles. He might chirp some sound theology but his love of filth is so great he cannot even keep it from his preaching.

    Let’s all put on big boy pants, move out of wonderland, and deal in truth in reality according to the will and to the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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21. Brian,

    I’m with you – there are some passages wherein methinks the KJV is da bomb!

    In concert with your post, may I humbly submit 1 Corinthians 16:13 from The Authorized Version?

    “Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.”

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22. Pilgrim, You are spot on!!!!! I am also disgusted by the continuous focus on everything sexual by Mark Driscoll. He behaves not as a pastor, but as a high-school locker-room jock.

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23. Jeremiah 17:9

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    I think many of these so called “pastors” have become blind to the deceit that resides in sinful flesh: The desire to be heard and to feel that you are making an impact, its an idol to self!

    Most pastors today have fallen to this, thinking they are being in service to Christ when in actual fact they are being in service to their own flesh. you can have 99% of the Gospel correct but if you fall to the sin of the idol to self then you can be lost.

    With how completely saturated our culture is today with carnal sexual imagery and the over emphasis on self fulfilment we all must remain close to God, otherwise we will become blind and succumb to this pervasively sexual and self culture.

    This reminds me of Chuck Swindoll and his potty mouth.

    But for the grace of God, there go I. Lord help me to remain fast in you and deny the urge to exhalt self!

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24. John,

    I was not aware of Chuck Swindoll having a problem with language, but I do know that Chuck has been endorsing and moving down the road towards contemplative mysticism. You are correct that but for the grace of God, we would all be there.

    Why do people ignore the edification and admonition of Scripture? Just because the grace of God has been shed abroad in our hearts, you would think it would be an impetus to walk less like the world instead of delving into its murky filth. As Paul stated, grace does not abound so we can enjoy sin — GOD FORBID!

    The Desert Pastor

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25. Thank you, gentlemen.

    I am so grieved that so many in my denomination are lining up to follow Driscoll. Do they not see that he mocks our Lord? Our Most Holy Savior is reduced to crude jokes and our precious Word is presented as trash talk from an immature boy masquerading as a pastor?

    Ironically, and I mean this as no insult to those of you here, but the only condemnation of Driscoll’s trash talk that I could find for several years was coming from egalitarians! And it was not just on his view of women but on his potty mouth. Many were wondering why his laser like focus on sex for so long? I believe that his mouth, coupled with his behavior (his authoritarian take over of his church) and some of the things he teaches (like his recent diatribe on abuse which was really pointing back to him) and even some of his bizarre opinions such as pastors wives who let themselves go, make pastors stray…. point us to the fact that Driscoll is a time bomb waiting to go off. He exhibits abusive tendancies.

    I say this because I have followed his rants for quite some time and when he is rebuked by another celebrity, he says he repents. But then he gets worse. Abusers are known to say ‘sorry’ then esculate the wrong behavior. It is a pattern.

    I heard him say not long ago that everything he says on stage comes from the Holy Spirit. I cringed when I heard that blasphemous statement.

    Unfortuantly, Driscoll is taking some with him like Piper, Jeff Noblitt and many in the SBC. I do not care if his doctrine is correct when his fruit is so very rotten. Even satan knows correct doctrine.

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26. Could you please provide a link to the sermon in question? I’d like to listen to it myself. Thank you.

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27. “I heard him say not long ago that everything he says on stage comes from the Holy Spirit. I cringed when I heard that blasphemous statement.”

    Good grief! That statement alone is grounds for anyone in his church demand he be removed from the office of elder.

    The claim that he’s only being “transparent” when he spews filth doesn’t wash. Elders are not perfect but they are commanded to be examples to the other sheep. As the elders of my former church found out when I confronted them over nonsense, elders NEED TO BE guarded in what they publicly say; all the while confessing that they are mere men who desperately need the grace of God and the covering of Christ every day. When Christians hold up their pastor, or when he steps up as their role model, their view of Christ is obscured. As their example, he is to preach Christ, walk in Christ, and point people to Christ.

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28. Well, better late than never! I’m glad people are waking up to Driscoll’s hypocrisy and filth and taking action, but its sad its had to go this far. Still, I’m glad the Lord is waking up His people.

    I do disagree with the idea that was posted in the comment section about Driscoll having sound doctrine. He does not.

    A person’s life reveals what he truly believes, not what he merely says he believes.

    Driscoll’s life denies biblical sanctification(.1Tim. 6:11; Titus 1:1, 2Peter 1:5-7)

    Driscoll’s life shows he is disqualified as a pastor/teacher (1Tim. 3, Titus 1, James 3, 2Cor. 6).

    Driscoll denies the doctrine of women not teaching men in church (1Cor. 14; 1Tim. 3).

    Driscoll denies purity of speech which is repeatedly commanded in Scripture. 1Tim. 6:11; Eph. 4-5

    Driscoll’s teaching and behavior shows a man-centered doctrine and practice. Surely he is not Solo Deo Gloria.

    If doctrine doesn’t change a life, then its either false doctrine or he doesn’t truly believe biblical doctrine.

    Claiming TULIP should not give anyone a free pass. Piper and Mahaney both should just as equally be shunned for giving one excuse after another for Driscoll, as well as continuing to offer Driscoll to their audiences as if he has any truly biblical wisdom.

    Let’s be consistant across the board. Starting with rejecting Pilgrim radio was an excellent decision, as well as writing them the rebuke!

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29. Thank you, thank you, thank you! You do not know the encouragement you, and others that posted here, gave me today. I too, have been blowing the trumpet warning about Mark Driscoll for quite awhile now in my denomination. This week has been a rough one, as I watched SBC leaders dismiss concerns from their messengers, on the growing involvement of this man and his ministry in our churches.

    The conversations I have had with pastors, professors, officers, etc., have been so disheartening. Men who I love and have respected, continually giving this man a pass, grasping for every excuse they can think of. I am at a loss as to what has happened to them. Telling me he’s mostly solid everywhere else, that he’s still growing so give him time, look at all the young he’s reaching…on and on it goes.

    As prude, puritan and fundie are hurled my way, them expecting a defense from me, for these assumed labels on their part, I admit, I have felt down…but thank the Lord…not out! It is time for them to defend why they sit and listen to Song of Solomon being twisted, smutty talk that entices the men, and embarrasses the women, lewd jokes using Scripture and our Lord as the punch line, etc.

    He likes to talk about what being a real man is. He’s supposed to be more than that. He’s a Christian man, a shepherd of a flock, an influence among the young…an example of what his daughter should one day look for in a husband. Think of that for a minute. What father would want his daughter to be exposed to this?

    Thank you for letting us see the love you have for your wife and kids. With many leaders in my denomination, and even Dr. Piper, not saying “enough is enough”, I thought I was losing my mind. I couldn’t understand why such prominent leaders and teachers weren’t seeing what seemed so obvious. Frankly, I still don’t. I pray they will, but am grateful for the growing numbers that are.

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30. (IMAGINATION ALERT!!)

    There’s a fellow I work with. Good Christian man. Goes to church every Sunday and twice on Wednesdays. Knows the Bible inside out, backwards and forwards. There isn’t a thing you could ask him that he couldn’t answer. And as far as his believing in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone–you’ll never shake him from that. And he’ll tell anybody who asks the same thing.

    I mean, yeah, he likes to cuss a lot. He can’t finish half of his sentences without using a four-letter word. Everybody knows it. In fact, it’s one of the first things that comes to mind when you ask people about him. And not only that, he likes to tell off-color jokes and he sprinkles his speech with crude and classless words. People have tried to show him, from Scripture, why he should stop using that kind of language, but he doesn’t want to stop. Says he likes to “keep up with the times.”

    But, hey, I still like to hear him talk, vulgarity and all.

    ………………………….

    Question for those who will defend Driscoll: if Driscoll wasn’t a pastor. If he was just somebody you knew who fit the description of the person described above. Someone you worked with, or went to church with. Would you still think there was nothing wrong with him? Would you still consider him a “good Christian man?” Or would you try to get him to change, and maybe even cease speaking with him until he did?

    Your answer will show everybody whether you stand for truth–or whether you stand for a personality.

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31. I want to congratulate you brother for making the bold and necessary step to expose this wolf in sheep’s clothing. I have been disgusted ever since John Piper invited “gutter mouth” to his conference. I know my words can sound condescending, but I am angry as you are for leading people astray and defaming the name of Jesus Christ who is our great king, high priest, and prophet. I’m also very concerned as to how a “Christian” radio station can publish this trash. Your wife and kids would probably have been safer listening to Howard Stern.

    Again, just want to exhort you to continue the fight of faith and to expose themselves that claims, “Are apostles, but are not”.

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32. I make no distinction in permissable language – laity or clergy – as the Bible makes no such distinction. The prohibition against “filthy jesting” applies to all Christians.

    The use of crude vulgarities breaks down natural barriers of modesty and often is a precusor to sexual sin. As a Boy Scout leader (a secular institution) 30 years ago, we were taught not to make off-color jokes in front of the children for that very reason. It’s a common tool utilized by pedophiles and perverts.

    Ted Haggard’s “Evangelical Sex is Great” video clip (filmed before his exposurel) is an example of where this can go.

    Did this climate in Haggards church have a barrier-breaking effect on his intern? I’d suggest it played a part.

    Why any “pastor” such as Driscoll would think that he can speak – in the pulpit – in front of children – in a manner that would get him booted from the Scouts is beyond me.

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33. Somebody help me out here. Why is this man still being called anything but a false prophet? Did John Mac or Washer or Begg or any of the REAL proclaimers of God’s word ever resort to such filth? NEVER!!! When was the last time M D did nothing but tell you how wonderful Jesus was? I’ve never heard such a sermon. Is there one in existance? His doctrine may be mostly correct—so what!! The devils in hell know who Jesus really is and tremble. They also are very good at mocking Him and lying about Him, so what’s the difference between the demons and Driscoll?

    I’d seriously like some answers

    Thanks, Darrel

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34. Joe Morales:
    Amen, brother.

    Abounding Media:
    Spot on!

    Brent:
    Pilgrim Radio was once a very trusted station. It’s because of their past trustworthiness that we listen to them. So when this smut came spewing through the speakers in my wife’s vehicle with our children present, you can understand why this is so upsetting. It’s not a matter of “just don’t listen to it” as some Driscollites have been using as a defense of their Golden Calf. I DON’T listen to MD. My wife, however, was unaware of who the guy was. She was blindsided. Sadly, the Driscoll defenders simply cannot see any problem with this. They instead want to blame everyone (including me who was not present) for my kids hearing this smut. They lay blame at the feet of every but Driscoll. He’s almost as untouchable to his follower’s as a cult’s leader.

    Lynn:
    That’s exactly what he did in this instance. My wife says he kept repeating the words over and over again for the shock factor. And yet Driscoll defender’s only reply is, “Well, it’s in the Bible, don’t be such a prude.” There truly are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Apparently there are others out there (like yourself) who have to turn off their radios when MD is “preaching.” It seems we’re a minority as most have chosen to sit under and defend this man’s ministry.

    Beyondgrace:
    Thanks for all the links. Unfortunately for many out there the old saying applies; you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

    Brian of the Hill People:
    “He might chirp some sound theology but his love of filth is so great he cannot even keep it from his preaching.” You hit the nail on the head with that one

    Glenn E. Chatfield:
    “He behaves not as a pastor, but as a high-school locker-room jock.” You hit the nail on the head with that one too.

    John:
    I remember hearing something about Swindoll using the pulpit to joke about his colon. Not sure if it’s true or not and haven’t heard anything else about it.

    Lydia:
    You are very welcome. Too bad we have to take so many firey darts in the process. “Do they not see that he mocks our Lord? Our Most Holy Savior is reduced to crude jokes and our precious Word is presented as trash talk from an immature boy masquerading as a pastor?” Nope. The lust of the eyes and flesh tends to blind many. “I do not care if his doctrine is correct when his fruit is so very rotten. Even satan knows correct doctrine.” Very true. Very, very true.

    Jerry:
    It was “Under Authority Like Christ” from MD’s series Christians Gone Wild (imagine that) which also includes another “sermon” entitled Good Sex, Bad Sex (imagine that).

    Denise:
    “A person’s life reveals what he truly believes, not what he merely says he believes.” This is very true. It reminds me of the video where MD is reciting his creed (all very sound) while wearing a t-shirt depicting Jesus as a D.J. Wow, talk about the lips not matching the heart. Also, thanks for the Scripture references in regards to this situation. Sadly those who need to take it to heart the most will only ignore that and call you a prude for not liking MD, and a Pharisee for daring to be vocal about it.

    Kim:
    You are welcome, welcome, welcome. You do not know the encouragement you and others posting on this thread have given me. “What father would want his daughter to be exposed to this?” Not me. That’s what started this whole situation because my four-year-old daughter has now been introduced to such wholesome concepts as prostitutes, whores, lesbians, and porn while listening to the the supposed preaching of God’s Word.

    Fourpointer:
    Stop with the reason and logic already. It’s all about style over substance, don’t you know that? Don’t confuse us with your logic.

    Jandrusk:
    At least they would have expected this talk from Howard Stern. This is not what they expected from a Christian radio station. That’s what made this so insidious.

    Darrel:
    “His doctrine may be mostly correct—so what!! The devils in hell know who Jesus really is and tremble. They also are very good at mocking Him and lying about Him, so what’s the difference between the demons and Driscoll? I’d seriously like some answers” Good luck Darrel. I think you’ll be waiting a long time.

    All of this reminds me of a video I posted last year. I recommend you view it and it may explain a lot of why so many people are embracing this man. It’s called “The Pastor’s Exalted” and you can view it by clicking here.
    – The Pilgrim

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35. Zac Soto: “He has so many talents, and clearly a biblical understanding of the Gospel.”

    Clearly?

    Jesus: “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!”
    .

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36. I think these words from A.W. Pink might encourage folks here:

    http://www.gracegems.org/Pink2/take_heed_what_you_read.htm

    Some of God’s dear people may suppose that it would be presumptuous to set themselves up as judges of what they hear or read—but that is a serious mistake, being both a false humility, and a shirking of duty. The Apostle rebuked the Hebrews because their senses (spiritual faculties) were not developed so as to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13).

    It is often a long time before God’s children are able to account for this. They blame themselves; they are exceedingly loath to say, “This message is not of God.” They are afraid to act in the spiritual, as they do in the natural, and condemn and discard that which is worthless.

    “Take heed what you hear” and read! More than forty years ago the saintly Adolph Saphir wrote, “I think the fewer books we read—the better. It is like times of cholera, when we should only drink filtered water.” What would he say if he were on earth today and glanced over the deadly poison sent forth by the heterodox, and the lifeless rubbish put out by the orthodox? Christian reader, if you value the health of your soul, cease hearing and quit reading all that is lifeless, unctionless, powerless, no matter what prominent or popular name be attached thereto. Life is too short to waste valuable time on that which does not profit. Ninety-nine out of every hundred of the religious books, booklets, and magazines now being published, are not worth the paper on which they are printed!

    To turn away from the lifeless preachers and publishers of the day—may involve a real cross. Your motives will be misconstrued, your words perverted, and your actions misinterpreted. The sharp arrows of false report will be directed against you. You will be called proud and self-righteous, because you refuse to fellowship empty professors. You will be termed censorious and bitter—if you condemn in plain speech—the subtle delusions of Satan. You will be dubbed narrow-minded and uncharitable, because you refuse to join in singing the praises of the “great” and “popular” men of the day. More and more, you will be made to painfully realize—that the path which leads unto eternal life is “narrow” and that FEW there are who find it. May the Lord be pleased to grant unto each of us—the hearing ear and obedient heart! “Take heed what you hear” and read!

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37. Ephesians 4:29

    “Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.”

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38. “This reminds me of Chuck Swindoll and his potty mouth.”

    I’m very curious to know to what this statement refers. I heard Chuck Swindoll preaching on Is. 6 today and he spoke against the “fowl mouth” and called it sinful and does not condone it. But then again, I don’t necessarily condone my own sin either so…

    I’ve certainly never heard him say anything like that myself or heard anyone mention him using fowl language before, that is why I’m curious.

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39. I appreciate what you’re doing here, and I agree with those of you who are stressing the mandatory test of purity in the life of those who claim to be qualified as leaders… Driscoll evidently disqualifies himself. The Bible states that out of the heart the mouth speaks. I wonder why more Christians don’t ask themselves, “Why does MD feel so compelled, obsessed even, to pepper (or lather) his speech with sex and smut?” And why they then do not come to the conclusion: That is so NOT okay…

    What is also not okay, and just as damaging if not perhaps even more damaging to the Body of Christ, is his apparent spiritual/church abuse and abuse of women in his misogynistic teachings and flippant pithy idioms slamming women (one of these was quoted above here in a comment: men enjoy loud tools to drown out the yapping of their wives… this truly sounds like a man who is laying his life down for his wife as Christ gave up His life for the church… oh really? NOT!). He seems to be as obsessed with power and control as he is with coming across as a “lower life form.”

    I’ve read so many “testimonies” of the damage this man has caused in people’s lives, especially in the lives of God’s daughters. Please, consider some of the facts from my research about Driscoll and Mars Hill:

    freedom4captives.wordpress.com

    And thank you for taking a stand here against what I consider to be arsenic in the Body of Christ.

    Freedom In Him

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40. Thank you SO much for being willing to write what you have! I’m breathing a sigh of relief after reading this post and the thread following! I’m in my twenties and as a Christian in this generation sometimes it seems as though if I’m not loving what MD and others like him who are embracing this “look at me guys, I’m your pastor, sure, but I’m just a regular guy. listen to the shocking things I can say….are you shocked yet?!” have to say then I’m doing something wrong. Well I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting something coming from the pulpit to be more family-friendly than an HBO show. Nothing saddens me more than pastors like MD having to start off every sermon with the disclaimer “this is going to be racy so if there are any kids still in here you might want to remove them now”. I pray that this trend fizzles out before I start having children…and thanks for the heads up about Pilgrim Radio!

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41. Nat H:

    I am encouraged by your comment. It is good to see that not every twenty-something churchgoer has drunk deep of the Kool-Ade.

    Be steadfast. Remain in the Scriptures. Stay the course. Never compromise.

    Your brother,
    – The Pilgrim

    P.S. To all you Driscoll defenders who have left comments since the publishing of this post that have never been approved, please understand that I was not kidding when I said:

    All the Driscollite defenders who patrol the internet and swarm blogs such as this to offer excuses for their Golden Calf will have to find another soundboard for their approval of and winking at sin as their comments will no longer be welcome here. I refuse to provide a platform for their calling evil good and good evil.

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42. It also does my heart good to read your comment, Nat.

    I thought the following recent posts on my blog speak to this conversation specifically, so am including the links, Is Driscoll Really Qualified to Pastor? and Driscoll Teaches on Qualified Leadership (Did I Hear Laughter?):

    \http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/42-is-driscoll-really-qualified-to-pastor/

    43. Driscoll Teaches on Qualified Leadership (Did I Hear Laughter?)

    In Christ,

    Freedom

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43. I must admit that I don’t know much about Mark Driscoll other than what I have read on some apologetic websites like Slice of Laodecia and from what I have read here recently. I agree about the belief that if you are listening to a “Christian” radio or watching a “Christian” TV station or visiting a “Christian” bookstore, you expect to see or hear Christian beliefs, values, etc. I am leery anymore to go into a Christian bookstore. I am not sure what is correct and what is not! There is so much in there that is just “following the current fad”! It disgusts me! It is the “jump on the bandwagon” mentality. I am in no way setting myself up as perfect! I have many besetting sins I wish to be rid of, but I know that I must pray and turn them over to the Lord, not continue with them (i.e.-my use of coarse language). It is hard, but I know my witness is being marred by them. Who would want to follow Christ if they could continue to act the same way? Why would they feel a need? Sorry to make this a confessional, but I wanted others to know that I struggle, so I am not trying to pretend I’m perfect. I am so glad I found this site! Keep up the good work!

    Nicole

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44. Pilgrim, exactly which Mark Driscoll sermon were you listening to? I’d like to listen to it and hear the context of what he was talking about.

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45. The Dude:

    The answer is in this comment.

    – The Pilgrim

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46. Love rejoices in the Truth. 1 Cor 13:6 Jesus IS the Truth. John 14:6 So those who love and rejoice in the Truth are not “prudes”, “fundies” or “hatemongers”. I will however take exception with Westoboro Baptist Church because they ARE hatemongers and do not stand on the Truth of the Word of God. They stand on the doctrines of men, namely Calvinistic “elitism” or a twisted version of predestination based on the false, man-invented doctrine of TULIP.

    God is indeed sovereign and knows who will choose Him and be saved. Those are the “elect” who are predestined, not self-righteous, religious pharisees like WBC followers. God is not in the business of making puppets who are drawn “irrestably” to Him against their own free will as Tulip falsely teaches. He “desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved” (1 Tim 2:4) so that proves “irrestible grace” to be a false doctrine.

    Adam and Eve had free will in the Garden of Eden to choose between the Tree of Life (Christ) or the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Satan/flesh/world). Lucifer and his fallen angels HAD eternal life but CHOSE to reject God and do their own thing. God does not make puppets. We have our own free will to choose whether or not to love and serve Him. Just like when we get married. We still have our own free will to choose to love and remain faithful to our husband/wife or we can choose to commit adultery.

    Same goes in the spiritual realm. “Once saved, always saved” is a BAPTIST doctrine. Biblical doctrine is choosing to love and serve God UNTIL THE END: “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake, but he who ENDURES to the end shall be saved.” Matt 10:22 The only time “eternal security” becomes reality is when we are present in heaven WITH CHRIST! Otherwise this warning would be a lie: “Beware, lest you FALL from your SECURE position, being led away by the error of the wicked.” 2 Pet 3:17 And this would also be a lie: “And many of His DISCIPLES FELL BACK, and walked with Him no more.” John 6:66. There is no other name under heaven to which we might be saved. If they were “disciples of Christ” they were saved. If they FELL BACK, they were no longer saved.

    I agree with all that is written here rebuking Mark Driscoll and his ilk, but we need to dig on back to the foundation of the problem which is SECTARIANISM (denominationalism, Baptist, Pentacostal, Catholice, Methodist, etc. etc. etc.) which is FORBIDDEN in 1 Cor Chapter 3. These are SECTS of MEN and all sects of men contain LEAVEN! Mark Driscoll stands out because he is not nearly as subtle as some of the others such as MacArthur, Piper, Noblitt, etc. but they are all 501(c)3 PHARISEES! They are part of the false bride (the Harlot organized church that Jesus calls the “Synagogue of Satan”). All of you who love the Truth (Jesus) need to realize this and “Come out of her My people, lest you share in her plagues.” Rev 18:4.

    Most everyone here seems to have a genuine love of Truth which is what it takes to be saved from this perverse generation. (2 Thess 2:11). I was formerly a “Baptist” and when I began to actually READ my Bible for myself instead of listening the hirelings, I saw that what they were teaching was in direct opposition to the Word of God! The first thing I saw was that “Once saved, always saved” is the same lie Satan told Eve in the Garden of Eden “Has God really said you will DIE if you disobey Him?” Romans 6:16 clearly says that “You are that one’s servant whom you OBEY, whether of SIN leading to death, or righteousness leading to life.”

    And Heb 10:26 says that if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth (Jesus) there no longer REMAINS A SACRIFICE (Jesus) for our sins! Yes we all sin but we cannot except to PRACTICE willful sin and still remain “eternally secure!” This is what is being taught in most “Baptist” sects today and especially expounded by the horrible, yet seemingly “sweet and humble” Charles Stanley. It makes my blood crawl to think of all the people he is leading straight to hell. That is the one you should be rebuking here. He is much more subtle and cunning than Mark Driscoll, who in my opinion is as obvious as a mule on rollerskates in a china shop! (But unfortunately, he does seem to be leading mean astray also)!

    Evidently, most of professing Christendom are completely destitute of discernment. We all need to come out of denominational churchianity and FOLLOW JESUS ONLY. “Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches (Jews), He may not spare you either.” Rom 11:21 {Notice that Paul is speaking to SAVED BELIEVERS in this verse}. “And He became the author of eternal salvation unto all those who OBEY Him.” Heb 5:9

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47. When I confronted a pastor and an elder of my church about listening to MD podcasts I was told that he has a powerful message on purity. That is like telling your child you are going to give him a bath then dragging him through the mud. I grew up in that church but had to leave because of the influence men such as MD and RW have had on the leadership. The one thing that this has done for me is to force me to use discernment and to take a stand for truth. Thank you all for taking a stand for truth in this day when war has been declared on it like never before.

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48. It is pretty difficult during these times but it will get worse before the Lord comes. Sometimes, the Lord uses these situations to get our attention so that we will use discernment and stand for the truth. I remember many times how we would talk to the leadership at a church about what they had done but they always seemed to brush it off instead of listening to us. We eventually would leave that church because if they don’t want to hear what the Word of God says then they don’t need us as part of it! As my husband always says, “Whatever reason you have to join a church will be the same reason you leave a church!” We like to become part of a church that stands for the truth and teaches the truth in every area of life. If they don’t, then we leave! Thankfully, my husband is a pastor so we do get to hear the truth taught regularly!

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49. I have beeen a Christian for 13 years now, attended a calvary Chapel here in my city, for tht time, and believed the truth was being taught.
    I strugggle with so much, but deep in my heart, I want to seek and please Jesus Christ with all my life. I want to commend you who stand for the truth of Gods word, its refreshing to hear from Christian men and women who dont compromise on the word of God.
    I know this may be off the subjest, but I felt the leadership in the Calvary I attended was right on, but was shocked of thier postition on tattoos and body piercing.
    They accept this pracice as being a gray or neutral area in the Bible, and even my Pastor said God has tattoos on the palm of His hands, from Isaiah 49-16… so this makes it ok, this is all I will say, as I am not seeking a church now, I do miss the fellowship, and serving in the childrens ministry, but feel the church is compromising big time on this issue.
    I know this issue is controversial, but Gods spirit is telling me this practice doesnt belong in the church, we are to be seperate from the world, and I am talking about Christians who are in the church who freely get tatoos, and there is a man at this Calvary who is a tattoo artist, has a business in my towm, giving tattoos,and he is in leadership, and the church leadership doesnt have a problem with it.
    Thanks again for helping me to be a real man of God, and not fear being legalistic in my convictions.

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50. Thomas
    Your posting is an encouragement and be of good cheer for it is not legalistic to stand against sin. Here, I encourage you to stand firm in your convictions in this area and others where you see sin flooding the church. Tattoos are graffiti carved on the body, which for Christians, is the temple of God. They are an direct attack against a clear command of the LORD where he stated, “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.” (Lev 19:28)

    Of course the LORD forbade such things because they come not from him but rather pagan cultures as the history of tattoos verifies. And you really cannot get much clearer than this verse but as you are seeing that there are many Christians and pastors who can wiggle out of its clear meaning better than Houdini could a straight jacket.

    Body piercings follow much the same vain as they are part of the practice of self-mutilation. They make people look like freaks and slaves to sin as they transform their bodies into pin cushions. This because the proponents of such practices are hardly ever satisfied with just one where the piercings (as is true with tattoos) spread all over their body; ears of course, eye lids, tongues, noses, and elsewhere I cannot write of.

    In the Scriptures you will find reference to a token for a slave which was a ring in one ear. Here, it is written that the slave’s master was to bring his servant “…unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.” (Ex 21:6)

    Yet we know that Christians are not getting a ring through their ear or by extrapolation body piercings because of Ex 21:6. Rather, they are following the course of the world who is their tutor as to how they should dress and what they should do unto their bodies. Musicians, Hollywood “stars”, sports “stars”, etc. are the ones they are mirroring.

    And it is only when confronted on such practices that they will furiously search the pages of the Scriptures to find some verse to justify their disobedience and sin. This because so many love the world and do not want to leave it and will do just about anything to not repent of sin. Rather, it is much easier to silence the messenger who brought the message unto them to repent, not unlike what Israel did unto the prophets.

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51. Hi Thomas,
    It is always such an encouragement to hear from Christians who are not following the worldly trends in the church. I don’t understand why people who call themselves Christians are still so much in love with the world. They want all the things the world has to offer. Though we are still in the world we are not of the world , so why still long after it. You will be called all sorts of names by Christians as they don’t want their worldliness pointed out. I pray you will continue to grow in your faith and seek only to please our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who gave everything for us.

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52. Thank you Brothers, I am feeling the peace of God, as I experience the loneliness of standing for His truth.
    I regret so much in my life as a Christian, and of course as a godless man. it was hard for me to confront the leaders of this Church, but I really studied the scriptures, and was convinced by the Holy Spirit, the Leaders view was not in line with scripture.
    I never saw the issue of body piercing and tattoos to be a gray or neutral area of the Bible, and it made me uncomfortable seeing it in this Church, and so accepted, I am so disturbed it took me 12 years, to see this compromise going on there, and now I see all the compromises I was making in my life also.
    Jesus paid a high price for us, gave so much more that I can ever give to Him, and again I am ashamed of my lack of discernment, and conviction.
    I could never imagine calling a church lukewarm, or liberal, but now I can see it clearly, as I seek His word and wisdom, Jesus is becoming a strong force in my life.
    The tattoo issue is just the tip of the iceberg I am afraid, and my friends from the church think I am off line about this issue.
    This issue goes much deeper that a tattoo, as brother Michael pointed out, I am so blessed to meet other real Christians who WILL NOT COMPROMISE GODS HOLY WORD, I feel brand new and set free now, and just starting now to grow closer to our savior, Jesus Christ.
    Thank you again for your encouragement, and showing your true heart for the real Jesus, I have a lot of ground to make up, still so sick from all my compromises I have made as a Christian,
    I am so blessed and thankful, Jesus is so long suffering, I praise His Holy name.
    Keep up the good work for standing for the truth, and not seeking your will but the Will of almighty God…………..

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53. The Lord blesses those who will be obedient to His Word by showing them more things in their lives that need to change. A lot of people will look at you as a radical and think you are only trying to cause problems but you must always remember that the Lord is MOST important! No relationship outweighs His no matter what! He paid the ultimate price and we are so thankful to see someone who refuses to compromise anymore! It is a long and lonely road when those around you compromise and you continue to stand but God is faithful. He will never leave you nor forsake you! Just remember that there will always be those men of God who desire the truth and refuse to flinch from it. May the Lord help you to continue to be one of those men from this day on! Thanks for sharing and we will keep you in prayer!

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54. Thomas,

    Never stop thinkiing for yourself.

    Any pastor who tries to use Isaiah 49:16 as a proof text for tattoos has some serious issues. Oddly enough, his beloved Chuck Smith did not do so in his circa 1980 commentary. Let’s see, has the Word of God changed in the last 30 years? No I don’t think so.

    Are we to suppose that this was some sort of hidden message just waiting for the 21st century when tatooes would be common in the culture? Don’t make me laugh!

    My theory is the God writes reminders on his palms with a Bic pen. Its a stupid thoery, but more plausible than your pastors. Matthew Henry agrees:

    (this alludes) ” to the custom of those who tie a string upon their hands or fingers to put them in mind of things which they are afraid they shall forget”

    Some people hae questioned the use of the relevance of Lev 19:28 for Christians. (I don’t.) They miss the point – the real idea behind Lev 19 is “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. ”

    Do tattoos and piercings seem like something of Egypt (the “world”)? Very much so in today’s society, and a disciple would do well to avoid license which causes others to stumble.

    Bill Suddeth has written perhaps the best book addressing this issue. I’ll email him with some questions concerning Isaiah 49:16 and report back to the class.

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55. Thank you Bill, and pastors wife, I appreciate your encouragement. Today at work, I was challenged by several so called Christians, who one called me a Pharisee, and judgmental on my stand on the Bible and tattoos, he said I was heading for a cult, and nothing in the bible says tattoos are wrong, and the so called other Christian a woman, said she got a tattoo as a Christian, and I was off my rocker for calling it a sin, and disobedience towards God, they were angry, and I had some scriptures to share, and the woman get very angry at me trying to read Gods word. All three, the other person a non believer, chastised me, and when I tried to walk away, they got angry and made me come back, so what I am seeing is that many so called Christians seem insulted by Gods word, and quick to put me down for my convictions.
    This is the first time in my walk with the Lord, I have felt a small bit of what Christ went through during His ministry, and I questioned my faith and motives in this issue.
    I am nothing special, just a man, who wants the approval of God over man, as I begin a new journey with my Heavenly father. I know now being a Christian isn’t about my comfort and fitting into the world, by getting a tattoo, or buying into the lies they speak, yes its a battle, and this life is short, and I have wasted so much of it feeling cumfy in my walk, and I am growing closer to our Jesus, and feeling in my heart, what a real Christian is and is not. And that makes Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary so much more amazing and intense in my heart.
    Please pray that God would bring some true Christians to my work place, as most have religion, and could care less about Gods Holy word, I hope I haven’t been to harsh in this post, my eyes have been opened to the real Christ of the Bible.
    Thanks so much

    for your prayers..
    Love Thomas

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56. Thomas, Press on dear brother and grow not weary. There are two easily detected areas wherein one gains assurance: do we love the brotherhood of Christ? and does the world hate us?

    These things are marks of those who are saved. Proclaiming Christians who defend the world and its values are apostate at best, deceived and hell-bound at worst.

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57. The problem is that the Word of God does convict hearts and because they cannot lash back at God, they will lash out at the messenger! We’ve seen this over and over again in our walk with the Lord. You would expect that believers would want to hear and obey but not necessarily so, especially when they get their toes stepped on. As Manfred said, “Proclaiming Christians who defend the world and its values are apostate at best, deceived and hell-bound at worst.” If they truly loved the Lord then they will realize that they are wrong and seek to make it right. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn’t make it so. Keep standing firm!

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58. If you will google “tattoo Isaiah 49:16” you will find that, according to the internet (so it must be true) God indeed has tattoos. You will also find that most who have written articles about this presuppose that Tattoos are just fine and then have latched on to this interpetation which is bolstered (only) by the Amplified Bible PARAPHRASE and others who support this viewpoint (watch how many exact phrases are repeated).

    It’s an apt illustration about how many will appeal to the bible (only) when it supports their agenda. And so they rely of proof-text using select verses and abandon the whole counsel of God.

    In Matt Henry’s day proponents of the pop culture would have told you that this same scripture supported palmisty – divination based on “engravings” in ones hand.

    The hyper-calvinist would tell you that this scripture means that God has a list of the elect written on his hands.
    Without debating the doctrine of election, can you see how having an agenda affects our reading of scripture?

    I’m not a Hebrew scholar, but I can use a Strongs as poorly as anyone. It does appear that the use of the word rendered “inscribed” in the NASB is not common but is not the same as spoken of in Leviticus. It could mean a signet, it could mean a written reminder. It is likely that true scholars will not come to a definite conclusion, because it is not clear.

    I think that we can gather that God’s intention in this verse was not to support body art, especially in light of His condemnation of it elsewhere.

    Strange then that so many who would speak dogmatically that this verse refers to tattoos would also state, in one instance that God has them on the back (not palms) of his hands, and in another that God has tattoos of our faces on his palms. Faces? Based on what, besides fancy?
    Another suggests “indelible.” Perhaps God uses a Sharpie ™ on his hands!

    Before we get too literal about this, remember that God not only has palms, He has wings. Selah.

    How ugly it is when we try to shape the bible to fit our agenda. Why not read it through God’s agenda?

    One scholar renders the Hebrew word for inscribed as “punctured.” How odd, I thought. But what a beautiful prophetic illustration. Jesus was “slain before the foundation of the world.” Many people understand this verse to be prophetically pointing to the nail-pierced hands of Jesus.

    So we are left with this choice: The crucified Christ or Todd Bentley. I’ll take Jesus over the pop-culture “hands-down.”

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59. I appreciate so much your encouragement, as I am not used to it, especially on the issue of tattoos for Christians. It just is so sad, as I can truly appreciate what you said, Manfred, These things are marks of those who are saved. Proclaiming Christians who defend the world and its values are apostate at best, deceived and hell-bound at worst.
    Most get offended with this statement, and cannot see past their own feelings on this issue as well as others, I feel its a huge compromise on the Scripture, and am seeing it clearly now.
    I am boldly proclaiming Christ at my workplace, as I am so ashamed at my timidity over the years, and for once in my life as a Christian, feeling more distant from the world and its practices, I as mentioned before made many compromises over the years, and the Lord is revealing to me, what a true Saint is, and I sure wasn’t, oh yes, I gave my offering, said a lot of prayers, served in ministries, volunteered, and the like, but was very comfortable in the world,and as I stand for Christ, especially so called Christians, think I am way off. Today this Man who calls himself Christian, wanted me to show him verses in the Bible that forbid the practice of tattoos, and I refused, I cant believe he wanted to refute Gods word, about being separated from the world, avoid all forms of evil, and many more, especially Romans Ch. 8-5-12, I wont give him the pleasure he wants to mock God and His Holy word and High standards.
    Thanks also for the info on the tattoos, and ISH:49-16, I am thankful to meet brothers and sisters in Christ, who stand for His Holy word, and seek Holiness in their lives, I pray this in my life, and am blessed with these changed in my life.
    Love in Christ,
    Tommy

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60. Before I had looked into the issue of tattoos I had a friend at work ask me what I thought about them. I told him that I did not have any scripture at that time, but I told him that he may want to ask these questions: “Is it pleasing to God?” “Are you doing it to glorify God?” “Is it honoring God?” So often we get so caught up in the “can we” or “can’t we” that we take our eyes off of the “should we”. When we are looking at the line of morality, what is moral and what is not, we need to realize that we are not looking at God, but at the world. God is in the other direction. If we are focusing on the line, we WILL step over it. God is so holy that we can not go by what is “acceptable” if we wish to please Him.

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61. Truther,

    Your reminder that our focus ought to be on pleasing our God, rather than finding loopholes in Scripture is spot-on!

    I am reading this book: http://www.amazon.com/Worldliness-Resisting-Seduction-Fallen-World/dp/1433502801/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255523141&sr=8-1

    and that’s the whole point of each chapter.

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62. Thank you so much for the information, much appreciated..

    Sometimes I feel I am outside of Gods will, being apart from the Church I attended, and I know many of my brothers there feel the same, what advise could you give me now, as there are many Churches here in Tucson, but not sure if they are compromising also. A Christian friend of mine told me I need to be in fellowship, in a Church, even if I didn’t see eye to eye with the tattoo issue, and the church leaders! Another elder in the Church, said he and his family, and the other people in the Bible study I attended didn’t have tattoos also, He thinks they are ugly, so he wants me to join them, I feel again, I am being judgmental, but if he feels they are not for him and his family, why don’t they do anything about the minister who works for a tattoo parlor here in my City?
    I feel so separated now, don’t know where to go, praying my heart out for the Lord to bring me to a group of strong believers here in my town. I know my faith in Christ must increase, I am so much more dedicated to reading His word, and learning all I can about the worldly church movement, and the compromises going on in the so called Church.
    Alls I know is that I love the Lord very much, and never felt closer to Him, just used to being surrounded by people, and the children I ministered to.
    I am single, on my own, and love to teach Gods word without compromise.
    Also I have shared Christ more these last few weeks that I have in my whole walk with Him.
    But I feel so convicted when I dont witness to everyone I come in contact with. Sometimes I force myself to tell as many as possible, but get distracted, because I work for a large Hospital, and oh so very dark, and Godless, I am sorry to say I haven’t met a real Christian yet.:(
    Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
    Love in Christ,
    Tommy

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63. Thomas,

    When I was looking to change churches I first of all prayed that God would lead me to the church He wanted me at. I then met with the pastor of a couple of churches. I asked them what they thought of certain topics like divorce and remarriage, social justice and other hot topics. Just where they stand on divorce and remarriage can tell you a lot about them. Also asked about things like the Shack and Rick Warren and Mark Driscoll. I am fortunate, I have a choice to make between two churches that I feel are sticking to what God says in His Word. Now, the hard part is picking which one to make home.(I prefer one and my wife prefers the other:( Often, I hear of people that have no choice at all of good churches to attend. No matter what, we stay faithful and true. Jesus Christ is the best fellowship we have, but it is nice to have others for encouragement and such. God be with you in your search for true Christian fellowship and teaching.

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64. This post is dumb!!…it’s a waste of people’s time.
    Mark Driscoll is a man of God…and not only does he have solid theology….God is using him to influence America towards Christ in such a large margin that not anyone YOU Even know can match upto….He lives what he preaches….and he’s transparent and real with others…
    THAT”S WHY non-christians are able to see Jesus and the gospel more clearly…..You guys can keep promoting…”OH Im holy…etc” and I won’t put up with this kinda language and what nots…..PAnzeez
    Put your pants on….if your kids heard it on the radio…GOOD!!!
    it’s about time they heard it from a pastor rather than 98% of the kidds around them in schools who are using those languages in the wrong while giving [Expletive Deleted] to another at a young age!!!!
    You parents are gonna be shocked once your kids grow up..
    KEEP your mouths SHUT!

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65. I am surprised at the quantity of foolishness on this web site. Sorry that there are other Christians out there who don’t fit your worldview. Idiots.

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66. Dear “Truth” teller:
    You said, “He lives what he preaches.”
    That’s what we’re afraid of, and what we’ve been suspecting for a while now!

    And perhaps if Driscoll was truly influencing you to Christ (as you suggest he’s doing to America) I would have expected your comment not to be so crude and rude.

    Dear Double U Tee Eff:
    Perhaps if you aligned your world view to that of the Bible you wouldn’t have chosen such a vulgar screen name and you wouldn’t be so quick to call people “idiots.”

    Dear readers:
    If you’re wondering why I permitted these two comments from Driscollites to see the light of day, it’s simple: Their crude, profane, vulgar, and rude comments in their defense of their golden calf does more to make my point of what Driscoll’s ministry is producing than a thousand posts we could write.

    Thanks fellas; you are the shining fruit of Driscoll’s ministry and the reason my kids will never be around your kids to be influenced by the perversity that you think is acceptable because, after all, your pastor feels it is acceptable to speak in such a manner. And as we all know, the fruit never falls far from the tree.

    – The Pilgrim

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67. Truth Teller,

    You shoud be ashamed of yourself.

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68. The Pilgrim and Matthew Johnston,

    When the conscience has been seared, there is no longer shame to be found in regards to sin. This is why people like Driscoll can preach from the depravity of their hearts and why their followers enjoy listening to vulgarity.

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69. “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.” (Luk 6:45)

    “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man.” (Mat 15:18-20)

    “But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Mat 12:36-37)

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70. Dear Pilgrim,

    I have been following the discussion on this page for a while now. I’ve tried to post a comment once before, and since then, I’ve gotten email updates about new comments posted. I’ve read new comments with interest, just to see how the conversation has developed. I now again am interested in posting a comment. Of course, it requires your permission, and this is your webpage, and I understand that I have no intrinsic right to have my comment published.

    You allowed two comments to be posted in defense of MD. The creators of those comments obviously are ill-suited to articulate dissent without profanities and vulgarities. Their sentences demonstrate everything that’s wrong with much of education today. They are light on the grammar, heavy on the poorly-conceived opinions. Of course, like most disagreements on the web today, their response is not complete without the required ad-homonym attack, decrying the intelligence and reasoning capacities of everyone who does not hold the same opinion as themselves.

    I am inclined to believe that these fellows are no older than thirteen and barely literate. Unfortunately, in all probability, they are in their late teens, and are literate. (I use “literate” in its loosest sense.)

    What has moved me to write this comment, however, is not their poor grasp of the English language. It is your generalization of their opinions as the opinions held by all who support MD. One does not have to support MD to recognize the logical fallacy you have employed. It’s called the “straw man attack”, and it is, in essence, the use of an irrelevant issue that is easily attacked to detract from the main topic. The main issue, the main topic of your post, is the theology of Mark Driscoll. It is irrelevant who supports him, or how they vocalize their opinions. It is painfully simple to rip to shreds the opinions stated by our two intelligent and contemplative friends. I am confident that these two posts are not the most articulate opinions you have gathered that are opposed to your views. There are several reasons for creating a straw man; the “straw man” requires much less mental dexterity to defeat. It is “taking the easy way out” of an argument. Another reason is that the real arguments, the persuasive ones, are too much so to deal with.

    These challenges are why the fragments of straw men are littered across the political arena in America. It is dirty and hard to deal with facts, reality, consequences (especially the unintended consequences), and in particular, results. The rhetoric-spouting politicians simply denounce a ridiculous opinion, stating their opinion as the only alternative; every sane person understands that the “ridiculous” opinion is so, therefore the only option is to agree with the politician.

    So, my request is this: If you are going to allow those who support MD to post, or, if you selectively allow those posts to appear on this comment board, please do not pick those who are simply easy to dismiss. This method is intellectually dishonest, and reflects poorly on the strength of your own argumentation.

    Sincerely,

    jThompson

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71. Amen, brother Michael!

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72. Dear JThompson:

    Thanks for your comment.

    Believe me, those two comments are not the only comments we’ve received from Driscollites in which the language, crudeness, and tone was similar to the two above.

    As I stated in the original post, I chose to not bother letting Driscollites further spread their “hath God said” comments. It’s pointless. The same old arguments are employed and they refuse to listen to reason or Scripture. So there’s really no point in continuing the argument with those who will blindly follow their leader. There’s nothing we can tell them that they’ve already ignored/dismissed in holy Scripture.

    As for the two comments in question, you argue that it’s a straw man, I argue that it’s a fair representation of the many comments we receive in defense of Driscoll that never see the light of day.

    Of course you can find educated and articulate defenders of Driscoll, but the comments above are so very common that I would be remiss to not let readers see what kind of comments that we regularly get from Driscoll defenders.
    And I see nothing wrong with that.

    Sincerely,
    – The Pilgrim

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73. JT —

    If you want an open uncensored conversation with both sides welcome I’d be happy to host. I have a relevant thread from the summer: (deleted website by editors)

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74. I agree, and yet I find these terms “protitute, whore, etc.” in the bible

    reading through the first five books of Scripture gives some pretty harsh language of sexual sin and violent acts. It was mandatory for young Jewish boys to memorize these books. Please someone help me understand why these terms are wrong for a preacher of Scripture, but not wrong to be included in Scripture. No sarcasm honestly asking. For the record I do not endorse Driscoll, I don’t agree with his topics, jokes, and/or methods of getting through to people. Paul preached to Corinth and did not joke with them about sin. It is not necessary to communicate evil to “reach” the world. Yet again as I have been reading through Scripture line by line I’m encountering all kinds of words and issues, and some are pretty harsh, and the people of God were told to teach these things, tell these stories, and remind their young ones of all of these things.

    Please don’t label me a Driscollite, I am not. Please read the content, and context of my post, and please help me understand.

    on a final note. Is the word “pornography” restricted in church? if yes then how do we address the epedimic?

    if no, then he must have said much more, and i apologize

    honestly looking for help

    Grace and Peace

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75. To the Pilgrim:
    As one who has gone around and around with Driscollites, as one who has read nearly all of Driscoll’s books, as one who has listened to enough of his sermons to be repulsed by his blasphemies, false teachings, mockeries of God, Jesus, the Scriptures, and so many antibiblical things he continues to do on an ongoing basis, I support and defend your stand to expose Driscoll for the impostor he is. I have personally attempted to show numerous Driscollites from all throughout the Scriptures, just how Driscoll not only fails miserably to be a Biblical elder or pastor, but is presenting to his followers and the world a false Christ, a false God, a false gospel, and is systematically perverting and destroying the faith once delivered unto the saints. In the course of attempting to merely look at what the Scriptures say, attempting to merely compare Driscoll’s teaching and behavior to the direct, clear, and specific statements in the Bible, I have been met with much the same reaction as was displayed by “Double U Tee Eff” and “truth teller” above. But I would say these two perverse individuals are very, very mild in their reactionary comments. I have been met with such vile hatred the likes of which I would only expect from a person possessed with a foul spirit.

    Those Driscollites I have dealt with are in two basic camps: 1) those who are sincerely cluless, ignorant, gullible and are easy prey for those who throw around the name “Jesus” a lot as if that makes their leaders biblically sound, and 2) those who are militant followers of Driscoll, who believe solidly in him, who follow him with cult-like devotion, who have already predetermined to reject any and everything I would show them in the Scriptures. And I have not found these foul, perverse followers of Driscoll to be limited to teenagers. Those who I have dealt with, face to face, are mostly in their 30’s and 40’s. My dear sister, in her late 30’s, who was once a pure Christian woman in thought, behavior and speech, has now become foul mouthed, laughs at and tells vulgar sexual jokes and innuendo, and is also a dedicated disciple of Driscoll since she has begun attending Mars Hill. The youth pastor of my church, a seminary trained man, is also a dedicated follower who now sees the Scriptures as Driscoll defines them. And he is teaching Driscollism to the youth of my church. So, yes, I can personally testify that the above 2 perverse fellows are truly representative of many of Driscoll’s followers.

    To JThompson:
    You accuse The Pilgrim of engaging in a “straw man” attack. You fail to consider the sheer volume of Driscoll’s spiritual error is far more than can possibly be defined and explained on such a site as this. The Pilgrim’s use of a mere example of the fruit of Driscoll’s “ministry” was not intended to be the end-all proof of such corrupt fruit, but a mere sampling of which he no doubt has a backlog that would fill several books. If you want straw man arguments, look at nearly every one of Driscoll’s arguments in support of his pet doctrines. He has no solid Scriptural support whatsoever, but tragically, he has managed to show just how many thousands who call themselves Christians simply can’t tell his grossly false teaching from the plain truths of Scripture. I wrote my sister a personal letter 60 pages long, of single spaced 11 point Times Roman just comparing some of Driscoll’s biblical errors with Scripture. And that doesn’t even include the footnotes or references. So you see, there simply isn’t room to even begin to address his errors, or to give extensive proof of his the perversities of his followers here at length.

    CD-Host:
    You’ve already tipped your hand. For those who have read what MacArthur and Driscoll have both said, for those who are well familiar with the theologies of both men, for those who have even a basic understanding of the Scriptures, the cleverly worded commentary on your page betrays a distinct bias against MacArthur and defense for Driscoll that is not even thinly veiled. You misrepresent both men.

    For everyone else:
    Driscoll isn’t going to go away. His destruction of the faith is only beginning. Each week he stands in the pulpit, and puts out his mixture of deadly spiritual poison (along with the word of God of course to lend credibility), he leads more and more astray. He is raising up a generation who are more than happy to follow their messiah, their high priest of perversity, into the promised land where fleshliness and worldliness can frolic and revel unhindered by the restraints of repentance and sanctification. All under the rallying flag of a tatooed, prize fighting, cool party-going “Jesus”, who is the son of a jokester, prankster, buffoon of a “God” whom Driscoll claims to represent.

    Lastly, let’s not forget what God has said about the subject:

    “A worthless person, a wicked man,Is the one who walks with a perverse mouth” (Prov.6:12)

    “The perverse in heart are an abomination to the LORD” (Prov.11:20)

    “To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.” (Prov. 8:13)

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76. CD-Host,

    Why should we direct people to your website when you stand clearly on the side of error? You choose to castigate Phil Johnson & John MacArthur by your words, yet think by offering an “uncensored conversation” that people will come to see what you have to offer.

    We are not amused by your flagrant disregard for the truth of Scripture, nor the extremely biased support of Mark Driscoll.

    The Desert Pastor

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77. Desert —

    Because I stand clearly on the side of free speech. The request was for an uncensored conversation not one whose outcome was predetermined to be in line with my or your “truth”. I would say though that the “side of error” believes in a God that does not flee.

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78. Hi, I haven’t posted here for awhile, but have been tracking the conversation… I remain disappointed that the majority of conversations I find on the internet about Driscoll predominantly focus on his vulgarity and various theological bents–although both of these are important—there seems to be an oversight in honing in on his cult-like oppression and control and what appears to be an abusive church system, as well as his apparent misogyny. But then again, fighting those things is my passion, not everyone’s, and yet they are part of what I see as the evil package with which we are dealing.

    Anyway, be that as it may… I wanted to touch base here with those of you who are interested in keeping tabs on Driscoll to call him out on some of his issues because, as I just posted on my blog, I’m taking a new turn in that I’m starting my business and no longer have the time or the energy to keep up on everything Driscoll. But as I wrote on my site [freedom4captives] more importantly, I feel that I’ve been obedient to the Lord in speaking out the truth about that which was presented to me regarding MH & MD. I was responsible for the information given to me. I have made that known on my blog. For me to go further would entail my policing Driscoll–which I’m really not interested in doing.

    Driscoll will continue to be Driscoll, meaning, he will continue to be the Driscoll who–until I am informed otherwise–appears to be abusing God’s flock and setting up a system over which he can rule as supreme. That is my take. Based on my perceptions of Driscoll’s behaviors, his words and apparent attitudes toward women and people in general, until Driscoll falls on his knees, weeping and repenting before the throne of grace, and until he allows (the biblical) Jesus, our only true healer of our broken hearts, to reach down and do a deep healing within him, he will continue to act out of his own pain, his own suppressed and repressed traumas. I pray for that day! I pray for Mark.

    Dan. 12:10 reads, “Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.”

    When we are ruling over a church in the spirit of those false shepherds whom God condemned in Ez 34, we are not pleasing God, we are not evidencing Christ nor His Spirit in our lives, we are not leading as Jesus leads and instructs us to lead, but rather we have become like the gentiles, lording it over one another, seating ourselves in “Moses’ seat.” This kind of dictatorship, similar to that which I perceive in Driscoll and in Mars Hill, is flat out condemned by God in Scripture over and over again! My point is that there are many Driscolls in the world as well as many of those who are on the polar opposite of Driscoll’s legalism, preaching liberal heresies– and all of these will continue doing what they’re doing… but those who submit to the Lord and to His Word, living by His Spirit, must continue doing that, following and obeying the Lord in true holiness despite what others are choosing to do.

    2 Tim 3:13-14 “But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of…”

    And as I invited on my blog, I want to make the invitation here to please keep me informed if you know of any new important issues or spiritual/church abuse or false teaching at Mars Hill. Please cite the source of your information.

    (David W, I would love to see your 60 page rebuttal to Driscoll’s “false teachings.” You may contact me by posting a comment on my site).

    I’d like to keep my blog up to date so people can be informed. I would hope that even as it stands my blog has enough information to provoke the wise and wary to do their own research and think twice about committing themselves to what looks to be a very controlling and cult-like church system led by what seems to be a spiritually immature despot (compare Driscoll to 1 Tim 3, and, well, to Jesus!).

    Rev 22:11-12 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.”

    In Christ and in His Glorious Truth and Love!
    FREEDOM!!!

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79. To DavidW I totally agree !

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80. At the risk of sounding “unmacho”, I will say I still remember the story of Little Red Riding Hood. And of the wolf’s manipulation tactics to lure her into his domain. Reminds me of another little story. The wolves continue to manipulate the unsuspecting sheep by saying “let’s walk over to my place and talk. Your shepherd won’t mind, and if He does, what’s He afraid of? Don’t look at the fact that he commands you to beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing, oops, I mean a fellow “seeker of truth”, a fellow believer in “free speech”. Because after all, it’s not my “truth” that matters or your “truth”, but that we both come together to arrive at the truth.” The wise sheep protested “don’t listen, he’s a wolf, he’ll destroy you”. The Shepherd said, “Don’t go, stay with Me in the safety of my protection”. But the foolish sheep harkened to the wolf, left off following their Shepherd, thinking they would be as safe as when they huddled obediently close Him, and were seen no more. The wise sheep did not harken to anyone who spoke contrary to the voice and written words of their Shepherd, and remained close to Him. They lived healthy, strong, safe, and contently the remainder of the long lives.

    Think about it.

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81. Dear DavidW:

    Unapologetic hostility is the best way to sum up the reaction of many within the Western church when you dare to touch their golden calf. Whether it’s Driscoll, Warren, Piper, Schuller, Bell, Osteen, etc.

    I am believing more and more that when the worldwide wrath of persecution against Christians is unleashed, there will be many, many “religious” people “professing Christ” who will be assisting the death squads.

    The more vitriol and blind rage I see coming from professing Christians, the more I am convinced that the guy who will be pulling the lever on my guillotine tomorrow, may very well be the guy who sat next to me in church yesterday, and he’ll be deluded into believing that by my execution he’ll doing God a service.

    Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.
    – The Pilgrim

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82. Pilgrim,

    Your comments are merely recognition of the fact that history repeats. For more than 600 years people who claimed and thought themselves to be Christians tortured and murdered Christians who would not bow to Rome.

    Whether Rome or Seattle or any other locale – religious bigots who depart from the Truth will persecute those who refuse to deny the Biblical Christ.

    In Christ alone is our refuge, our strong hope, our Jesus who is mighty to save ALL those whom the Father has given Him.

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83. Pilgrim,

    I’ve often had similar musings… scary stuff… one can already see forms of persecution coming from various heretical groups who claim Christ but are Christian in name only. I’m thinking of a recent example of the kind of warped thinking which plays into this coming from the notorious Episcopalian church which, in my opinion, has long since CEASED to even be Christian at all (they allow for practicing homosexual bishops, they affirm gay marriage and/or partnerships, they’ve had WICANS as bishops…). The Presiding Bishop, Jefferts-Schori, of this heretical group not long ago stated that it was “heresy” to believe an individual can be saved through repentance and praying to receive Christ as Lord and Savior! She addressed their General Conference in July of this year saying, “the great Western heresy: that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God.” She said that view is “caricatured in some quarters by insisting that salvation depends on reciting a specific verbal formula about Jesus.” To her it is heresy for us to believe that an individual’s prayer of repentance to our Lord Jesus can achieve a saving relationship with God. “That individualist focus is a form of idolatry, for it puts me and my words in the place that only God can occupy.” Wow…

    Such irony. The epitome of heretics calls those who obey Scripture, heretics. Scripture says woa to those who call good evil and evil good, who take light for dark and dark for light… This bishop received so much flack from true Christian churches regarding HER heresy that she back peddled (as they often do) trying to convince us she didn’t mean what she had said but had been misunderstood… hmmm..

    My point, which I think relates here and ties in with what Manfred said about the Catholic persecution of Christians, is that any group, whoever they might be–New Age, Oprah, Emergent, Seeker Sensitive, 40 day’ers (Warren), Traditional “main liners,” etc– which does not adhere to God’s Word and does not submit to the full counsel of God, will, as you rightly say, participate in various forms of persecution of the true Bride of Christ, those blood bought saints who live for Jesus alone and will die for Him. “…to live is Christ, to die is gain,” Phillipians, and “They overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, and loved not their lives unto death,” Revelation. We are an aroma of death to those who are hostile to the real Jesus we know in Scripture. No wonder their extreme hostility when we stand for Truth and for Him who is the Truth.

    I am of the opinion that when the heavy persecution hits, tax exempt status of churches will probably be removed, the government through various bills such as the one about “Hate Speech” will dictate what can and cannot be preached from the pulpits, and these two attacks alone could have serious ramifications for the mega “church” organizations… many will perhaps no longer be financially viable… true Christians who have been deceived will leave in droves when they once again here the True Shepherd’s voice, and these megas will shrink to small government run churches and the true church will go underground as they have in China wherein they flourish as house churches. Those Christians are truly willing to die for their faith in Christ.

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84. I’ve been of the opinion for several years that the first real test of most churches would be the denial of charitable status by the IRS. The false converts wold be hard pressed to give without a tangible benefit for themselves.

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85. Manfred,

    I believe another test will be when the government persuades churches that to be a “charity” they must fill out paperwork and become incorporated entities. This merely allows the government to pull their “approval” when the church gets to the point where it becomes too big a pain in the government’s regime.

    Even the IRS prints rules that show that churches are tax-exempt entities by law and they need NO documentation or articles of incorporation to exist and even to collect offerings from the people of their congregation.

    So, when the charity status is pulled, most uninformed church leaders will begin to back down instead of standing for the truth. Instead of standing for the truth no matter what like John Bunyan, they will compromise all for the sake of what they do not understand.

    The Desert Pastor

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86. We can debate what’s going to happen in the legal/political arena, but though it makes food for thought, I believe we have concrete spiritual issues already at hand. Sure persecution has come from the hands of religious people against Bible believers for millenia. But I don’t think that was what The Pilgrim was referring to above. This is no repeat of over 1000 yrs or so of Catholic persecution of Bible believers. Those who will be betraying and persecuting Bible believers will not be restricted to those who don’t submit to Rome. Bible believers will be persecuted by someone you go to bible study with. Someone in your own church. Brother will turn against brother, mother against daughter, etc. The spirit of Antichrist will be a spirit of hostility toward anyone who faithfully follows Jesus Christ. We will talk the same “Christian” talk, go to the same church, but such hostility will be in the heart of the false brethren (as Paul called them), that they will be hell-bent on seeing utter destruction come upon the true disciple of Jesus. Because the true follower of Christ will not follow or support the teaching, attitude or mindset that will sweep the churches more and more. Thus the dedicated disciple of Christ will be a hindrance to “unity”, “acceptance”, “peace”, “real life Christianity”, “missional mindedness”, etc., because he will not submit to the unbiblical teachings and practices that will come along with it.

    What does Driscoll have to do with all this? He has already begun such an attitude of persecution in nearly all of his books, and not a few of his sermons. He has instigated and nurishes an attitude of hostility toward all who would hold him to account, by labeling us “fundamentalists” and “religious people”, who, with disgust in his demeanor, and shaking of his head, says “are nothing but a joke”. Those who would dare to compare and contrast his errors with the clear teaching of Scripture, he scoffs at as if we were evil, Pharisaic, judgmental hypocrites. So it’s no wonder that his followers don’t want to hear anything we have to say, will not take a serious look at what the Bible says. He has already written us off as “losers”. And thus he has begun, and we see it more and more from the comments of his loyal followers, a division among professing Christians. If you don’t subscribe to his teaching, to his mindset, to his “cool Christ”, you are but a religious pharisee from the past, who will shrivel up and die with the past. Thus his followers not only don’t want anything to do with us, but we are a plague, a leperous sore in the church that needs to be cleansed.

    Will Driscoll be the only one behind this? No. He has merely already displayed it. It is the spirit behind him, and certainly behind many others that will drive it.

    Persecution? Oh yeah. It’s coming. You can count on it. And it certainly will come from “Christians”. It has already started.

    Now for the good news: these things must be. A crown awaits everyone who remains faithful to Christ unto the end. Those who have been faithful to Christ and His word will have an eternity of comfort and joy in His holy presence. “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled”. “Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedinglyu glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so they persecuted the prophets which were before you” (Matt. 5)

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87. Amen Desert Pastor. Also, per what Manfred wrote; as I see it the problem with the state-established 501c-3 corporations (called “churches” although this is an oxymoron for the state cannot create the body of Christ) is that there is a tangible benefit. Caesar is no fool because just as the fisherman must sacrifice a worm to catch a fish, so also must Caesar sacrifice a few Federal Reserve Notes in order to catch his fish (i.e. Christians). And this he is more than willing to do since the “money” he gives in tax write-offs and the like is actually not his money but the people’s!

    For a few good articles on the 501c-3, I encourage all to check out the following.

    http://www.theantichurch.org/501c3churchinfo.htm
    http://briansbits.com/non-profit.html
    http://unregisteredbaptistfellowship.com/docs/030501state.php

    Pray over it, speak to your elders and work to break free from Caesar.

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88. I don’t understand how men, who are supposed to be standing for the truth of God’s word, can so easily step to the side for the sake of a few dollars. Pastors, who are afraid to speak up because it might affect their non-profit status, should not continue to be pastors. Maybe I am biased but I am thankful to the Lord for my husband. He has lost many “friends” because of his stand for the Lord. I would rather have a husband willing to take a stand with few or no friends than to have a husband who refuses to do what’s right because he’s “afraid” he might lose something that’s not really worthwhile anyway! Thankfully, he has refused to have an incorporated church for many years! What a blessing to have a husband who stands firm for the truth of God’s Word!

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89. Desert Pastor’s Wife – You are indeed blessed as are we to hear of your husband’s stand. It is an encouragement to me as it can be a lonely place to stand for truth in areas where few are willing to venture.

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90. It is a lonely place, brother Michael, but not as lonely as what it seemed at one time. As God told Elijah that he had 7000 prophets who had not bowed the knee to Baal so He has His men set apart willing to follow Him regardless of the cost! As my husband follows the Lord and takes a stand, so too, I see many men on here willing to do likewise and it greatly encourages us in the Lord! It is indeed a blessing to know that men throughout the world are seeking to serve the Lord even if it means few to no friends wherever they may live. As I have been reminded over and over again, the Lord uses this lonely place to keep us dependent on Him! Keep serving the Lord, men, and may you have the peace that passes all understanding in the midst of everything!

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91. Amen to that.

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92. Desert Pastors Wife
    That is what the Lord is teaching me, total dependence on Him. He is pulling away all props. It is a hard lesson. My daughter told me last week that I’m too black and white in my faith, with no gray areas. My other daughter totally agreed. Though I only live 4 streets away from my daughter I rarely see her. Then my doctor who is known as a Christian man, and is one of the nicest, kindest men I have ever met, tried to tell me it’s not the teachings in the church that matter but the people, so I guess more like a social club. On one hand it’s incredibly lonely, on the other I am so blessed. I do not consider myself a very spiritual person as I know my heart. The Lord in His grace and mercy opened my heart to see the deceptions in churches and holds me safe in His arms. He is faithful and has never let me down. My favourite chapter is John 10 for then I am assured. I believe full on persecution would be easier than this,as it at least is in the open

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93. to TawfiQ Cotman-El:

    You asked:”Please someone help me understand why these terms are wrong for a preacher of Scripture, but not wrong to be included in Scripture.”

    I appreciate your honest inquiry. Yes, God does use some terms in His word such as “harlot”, etc. So is it wrong for a preacher to use words that are in the Scriptures? Not if he is honestly preaching what God has said, in context.

    For instance, God does warn young men to stay clear of an adulterous woman in Proverbs. He goes on to say they intice with their soothing words, but they lead you to destruction. That is good advise. It is from God, and there is nothing wrong with warning young men to avoid prostitutes. It is wrong for a preacher to use that as an excuse to throw around the most vulgar sexual innuendo, and appeal to basal sexual interests, in the manner that Driscoll is famous for doing. God does not tempt to sin, nor does He condone tempting others to sin.

    Concerning things like the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, God presents us the fact that the whole city had become so perverse, they had become homosexuals. He destroyed them as an example to show how He hates such perverse sexuality. There is nothing wrong to teach this. But if a pastor engages in sex jokes along with the story, then he is sinning because such joking is specifically forbidden in God’s word.

    Likewise, there is nothing wrong with using the word “pornography” per se, when it is referred to as something to be avoided like the plague. The problem is, when so called “pastors” like Driscoll say on the one hand, “yeah, it’s wrong”, then in another sermon, and in his book, says “my barber has some of the finest porn in my city”, then says he also takes his young son there, he sends a seriously conflicting message. How would he know which is “finer” than another? Is it wrong to look at or isn’t it? Or, why is it wrong for us, but not for him? If it’s so wrong and evil, why does he expose his young son to it? God is not the author of such confusion, nor does the Holy Spirit lead in such a way.

    Driscoll is famous for attempting to justify vulgar sexual jokes, “scat” humor, etc., by saying he is just following God’s example. He then perverts many of the Scriptures, then says “that’s what God said, so don’t blame me if you are offended by my words or my humor”. Fact is, God’s word doesn’t even come close to saying what Driscoll says it does. For instance, Driscoll utterly blasphemes, twists and shreds God’s word in his sermon on “Humor”. Of the many blasphemous things he teaches his flock, he goes on and on ad nauseum about Noah being drunk in his tent like some redneck on vacation. He mocks Jesus, mocks God Himself, making jokes about what cool party dudes they are, and on and on. After such utter wicked blasphemies, he tells his flock, you see, God is very humorous, so we should be too. With that foundation laid, he freely interjects the vilest, perverse sexual jokes into his sermons. This behavior is specifically forbidden in God’s word.

    Let us always remember, God is righteous and holy, so He does not use profanity, nor coarse jesting (dirty jokes and dirty slang), nor any such perversity. That would be against His own specific commands in His own word. What God does give us is instruction on what is His will, and what is not His will. Any so called “pastor” who tells dirty jokes, who elaborates beyond the limits of Scripture which tempts one to sinful thought, who speaks or teaches contrary to the clear commands of Scripture, such as Driscoll does, is not a true pastor of God’s flock.

    Hope that helps.

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94. DPW
    Pro 18:24 A man with many companions may come to ruin, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.(RSV)

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95. Amen! Keep looking to the Lord!

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96. Modesty is a virtue. Have we forgotten?

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97. this post goes on and on.. : )

    does anyone know where I can listen to or read some of the questionable things Mark has said?

    My sister-n-law and her husband like him. I would like to be able to hear what he has said himself but, I don’t want to have to sit through all of his sermons to pick out his questionable comments.

    then again, his speaking at Crystal Cathedral should be enough to make people wonder about him. I haven’t heard that message either. I have heard enough from Robert Shculler, however you spell his name, to know that I would stay far away from him.

    Go figure, I left one denomination that idolizes the likes of Bentley, Hinn, Copeland, and Hagin. To a denomination that idolizes the likes of Warren, Driscoll, and the rest. I guess I shouldn’t lump the whole denominations in together, I guess I should say that a lot of the people in these denominations idolize these guys.

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98. shane:
    You asked: “does anyone know where I can listen to or read some of the questionable things Mark has said? My sister-n-law and her husband like him. I would like to be able to hear what he has said himself but, I don’t want to have to sit through all of his sermons to pick out his questionable comments.”

    Honest question and honest inquiry. If you’re looking for a shortcut, some site that runs down a list of all the quotes he has made that are contrary to the Scriptures, I really don’t know any. As I said above, I wrote a 60 page letter to me sister, who has also been deceived by Driscoll, just countering some of his errors. Closest thing I can recommend is to go to the top of this page and type “Mark Driscoll” in the search field, and read the documentation given here. Also, do a similar search on Phil Johnson’s “Pyromaniacs” site. Check out also what John MacArthur has documented on what Driscoll teaches on the Song of Solomon, and the links he gives. That one subject alone should turn your stomach.

    I can tell you personally, after slogging through his books and tons of his sermons, he is very, very good at mixing solid biblical teaching in with such unbiblical perversity (and I’m not just referring to sexual jokes and innuendo, but the perversity of blasphemy, poking fun at the things of God,, etc.), that for the unsuspecting it’s like eating an average looking meal that you don’t find out till later was laced with some rather heavy doses of arsenic. Tragically, it appears many haven’t yet found out about all the arsenic they have already eaten from his hand.

    If you do read his stuff, or listen to him, be on guard spiritually, and have a rock solid hold on your understanding of God’s word, the character and holiness of God, what repentance and personal holiness of the Christian is, what having renewed minds is (particularly about bringing every thought captive unto Christ). The fact that he has tens of thousands of followers who are so willing to overlook his perversities and blasphemies, and follow him so dedicatedly anyway, should give indication just how polished he is at telling people what they want to hear. But the fruit born by so many of his followers betways what spirit is working through him.

    I like your comment:
    “Go figure, I left one denomination that idolizes the likes of Bentley, Hinn, Copeland, and Hagin. To a denomination that idolizes the likes of Warren, Driscoll, and the rest. I guess I shouldn’t lump the whole denominations in together, I guess I should say that a lot of the people in these denominations idolize these guys.”

    What you have seen is part of the sad state of Western “Christianity”. Too many church goers check their minds at the door, check their God-given discernment at the door, and blindly follow whatever comes over the booming speakers, nodding in agreement along with everyone else.. This is not God’s way for his children, nor what He wants us to do. He tells us right in His word “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits”. Paul warns, if anyone preaches another “Jesus” or another gospel, they are to be accursed and we are not to follow them. Paul even warns believers to test him, or even an angel from heaven. People aren’t doing this, and it’s very evident.

    The only way to be protected from spiritual deception, is to know God’s word well, submit to it, and test all things by it.

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99. I forgot about John Macarthurs message on MD. I can’t believe I did that. I will have to download it and listen to it.

    I have spoken against Benny and like before and have people look at me like I had an arm growing out of my head. It will probably be the same thing speaking out against these other guys as well.

    I was talking about Joel Osteen denying Jesus as the only way on Larry King and one of my aunts tried to defend him. she was saying stuff like “he is in front of a lot of people and doesn’t want to offend” and blah, blah, blah. I told that is the problem is that he is in front of so many people saying such rediculous things.

    It is an interesting time we live in to say the least. I just hope my church doesn’t try to become to “relevent” or “purpose driven”.

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100. Hey Shane, glad to hear you spoke out against Benny and Osteen. Right on! Pray for your church, your pastor, your loved ones. We really do live in a time when lots of sincere, trusting people are being led astray.

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101. You wrote “Shame on Mark Driscoll for using the pulpit to advance his insatiable lust of the flesh for all things sexual.”

     If you truly listened to Pastor Driscoll’s sermons, you would know that was not true. If you truly realized the prolific problem that porn and sexual sin is in our society, you would also confront it, just as Jesus confronted the Pharisees.
     I respect that you do not want your children to hear talk of porn and sexual sin at that age, but as Pastors it is also something that should not be ignored and it is something that needs to be confronted if you truly want to carry the Light of the Gospel into a world shrouded in darkness.

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102. Ed,

     Thanks for stopping by. I want to make two quick points.

     First, when Jesus confronted the Pharisees, He made it a point to always deal with the issues of the heart. He pointed out that the biggest problem they were having was not what was on the outside, but what was on the inside. During every account the Lord Jesus Christ, He NEVER resorts to becoming vulgar and terms of sexual titillation in order to point out the problems which were an issue even during the days He walked on this earth. Sexual immorality has been an issue almost since the time of the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

     Second, it is my hope that you did not mean what you said or the way you stated it when you said that porn and sexual sin “should not be ignored and it is something that needs to be confronted if you truly want to carry the Light of the Gospel into a world shrouded in darkness.”

     In all the times that I have read through the New Testament, I have yet to find one time where carrying the Light of the Gospel involves anything other than preaching the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is not one written account where vulgarities and sexual innuendos are included in a message in order to be “hip, cool, and relevant” so that people can then be “brought to Christ.”

     A person who is truly brought to repentance by the working of the Holy Spirit does not need vulgarities and sexual high-school locker room messages to understand his depravity. And the pastor who thinks this is cool and necessary in this day and age has a very faulty understanding of Scripture, needs to repent himself and get his own mind out of the gutter, and leave the ministry as he has proven himself to be unfit and unworthy of that high calling.

     To conclude, we have listened to Driscoll’s sermons, probably far too many. He is wrong before God and is an embarrassment to the true believers of Christ and the ministry. He has disqualified himself from ministry.

     The Desert Pastor

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103. Desert Pastor,

     I don’t believe a man that is saving souls and bringing people into a relationship with God and Jesus disqualifies himself from ministry, because you disagree with how he delivers his message. Many disagreed with how Jesus and his apostles delivered God’s message as well. I would prefer to let God judge him rather than you. I believe Pastor Driscoll is reaching out to sinners which is exactly what Jesus did and confronting them harshly it may seem for their sin. I have found nothing in his sermons where he glorifies sexual sin, but rather confronts it and exposes it by bringing it into the light. Sin grows in the dark, but Christians are called to live in the light. I believe this is the purpose of him speaking about it, not as you say to be “hip, cool, and relevant”.
     I mean no disrespect to you or your ministry, but I fear for our world of sinners and believe that Pastor Driscoll is saving souls and should not be condemned for that. You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matthew 5:43)

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104. Ed ~

     http://thechristianworldview.com/tcwblog/archives/1640

     I suggest you read what that website, in which they are using sources to back up what they are saying, about Mark Driscoll. It is some of the most disgusting vile garbage I have read and heard. Driscoll has actually said that the vile Chris Rock actually helped him become a better preacher. Disgusting.

     I stopped attending a Church here where I live because of their support of this man.

     Your stuff about Driscoll saving souls sounds is very unbiblical. By no other name are we saved than by the name of Jesus Christ. Christ saves, sinful man does not.

     Lastly, when it comes to the topic of sexual immorality in the Church and with judging it, I would suggest you read the 5th chapter of 1 Corinthians.

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105. Ed:
     I have listened to months and months of Mr. Driscoll’s sermons, and I’ve read 5 of his books. I have personally heard him make masturbations jokes, penis jokes, sexual intercourse jokes, both from the pulpit and in this books. For example, one of his sermons was OK, until he began talking about one church which spent a huge amount of money on a church organ. At that point, he interjects the joke “not a bigger or longer organ, something you really need…”. God has specifically forbidden this sort of stuff in His word. Mr. Driscoll has a long standing teaching on oral sex, and he is on record of having repeatedly taught that if a woman does not perform and “serve” her husband with oral sex, she is sinning against God and needs to repent. That is totally unbiblical, and flagrant exploitation for the man’s benefit. I can list for you numerous more examples of his explicitly unbiblical teachings. Have a good look at Eph. 4:17-29, Eph. 5:3-12, Col. 3:5-10, and all through the book of Proverbs. You will see numerous condemnations by God of the very things Mr. Driscoll is doing.

     All the insistance that he is “leading people to Christ” is rendered irrelevant, because he is specifically engaing in sin, and that from the Pulpit! Not because I say so, God has specifically said so. All one has to do is compare Driscoll’s specific word with Scripture.

     “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And I will proclaim unto them, depart from Me you who practice iniquity, I never knew you” (Matt. 7:22-23).

     So we see, according to Jesus Himself, it doesn’t matter to Him what “good works” we do in His name, nor what our intentions are. If we are doing what He specifically forbids, we are not His (despite calling Him “Lord”).

     Furthermore, the “Jesus” Mr. Driscoll claims to be leading people to is a “Jesus” that has the same name, but whose description and character is contrary to the Jesus which is described in the Scriptures. The party going, prize fighting, tattooed, “punch you in the nose dude”, D.J. “Jesus” of Driscoll is nowhere found in the Scriptures, but is the “Jesus” Driscoll wants everyone to come to. I could go into length on that, but others have already testified to it on this site and many others.

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106. David T,

     Thanks for posting that link.

     It is by far the best critque of Mark I have read.
     {I posted it at my blog}

     I cannot believe this guy!

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107. David T Yea thanks for that link. My stomach is turning after reading it. How MD can say “this is where the comedy begins” about Genesis is disgusting. I have read through Genesis many times, and have failed to see it as comic. I look on God’s plan for a Savior, and I marvel. In CH.6 I see “then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man and He was grieved in His heart. He said I will destroy man from the face of the earth” v5-7. I see many more people some good, mostly bad. I rejoice that my Father is patient, faithful, does not change, is full of grace and mercy. MD laughs at Noah getting drunk, yet Ham was cursed for the same thing. What’s funny about the fall or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. This man disgusts me! He tries to show how macho he is by putting everybody else down. I will keep the post so if I come across his fans I will show them

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108. you’re a [Expletive Deleted] idiot. How’s that for course language?

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109. More fruit of Driscoll’s ministry no doubt.
     Thanks for further proving my point Ezekiel.

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110. Why cant some of you see just how self righteous and legalistic you sound in your writings ? Most of you sound so intrenched in legalistic thought that there is probably nothing that anyone could possibly write or say to help you see this. For a people that so whole heartedly believe that they have the market cornered on Truth, how can you be so blind. And to boot, its usualy someone from a ‘reformed’ church that attacks so vehimently. What a shame.

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111. Dan Shaw,

     Do you know what legalism is? It is the concept that one can gain God’s favor by keeping the law. Exhorting professing Christians to obey everything the Lord has commanded is NOT legalism – it’s biblical instruction and obedience to God’s Word.

     Please show us where legalism – properly defined – is being taught or promoted on this site.

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112. Dan Shaw-
     Let’s view this in light of scripture…the Bible makes it clear that profanity has NO PLACE in a Christian’s life, nor do I find in scripture any sermons given to the body of Christ that deal with sexual content. Why is that? Could it be because little children should not be subjected to such messages?
     This is found in Ephesians 4:29, ‘Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.’
     We also find this passage from Colossians 3:8, “But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.”
     In light of these verses, how do you defend Driscoll, using God’s word as you do so?
     Can you give me an example from the Bible where any of the Apostles, or Christ Himself, preached on the subject of sex to a gathering of believers?
     Do you believe God’s word is the absolute guideline for all who claim Christ, especially those who claim to be called to preach?
     Thank you

     lyn

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113. Didn’t Paul write to the Corinthians about Sexual practices. Doesn’t it also say in scripture that wives and husbands should not abstain sexually from each other? What about the song of Solomon? What about many sexual passages in the Bible.

     I would like answer to a couple of questions.

     1. Doesn’t the passage say any UNWHOLESOME talk? How do we determine what is unwholesome talk? As dictated by the current morays of our culture? Also…why is unwholesome talk considered to be sexual talk? Couldn’t unwholesome talk be spewing hatred etc?

     2. Why is it not ok to preach about sex from the pulpit? Is it ok to preach about gossip? What about murder?

     Sex is a very important part of our lives. It is natural and it is ordained in certain contexts. Why can’t it be talked about? Sex is also very powerful in our culture for non ordained reasons also. Shouldn’t we be preaching about it? Why is it bad to preach about porn from the pulpit?

     Why is it ok for your kids to hear about murder but not sex?

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114. Again, I ask for scriptural references where sex was preached to a gathering of believers where children were present. Yes, there are many passages addressing sex, within the covenant of marriage as well as that of immoral behavior…BUT, this was not taught as a biblical message presented to a body of believers and their children.
     In reference to Eph. 4:29, the KJV says ‘corrupt communication’; corrupt comes from the Greek ‘Sapros’, meaning ‘of poor quality, rotten, unfit for use’-communication comes from the Greek ‘logos’, meaning ‘the sayings of God’. If you are claiming to be speaking the sayings of God, that should not include vulgar sensual language. If that passage does not make it clear, Colossians 3:8 leaves little doubt. The word filthy comes from the Greek word ‘aischrologia’ and means ‘foul speaking, low and obscene speech’.

     One of the clear indications of a false teacher is their sensual messages, Jude addresses this in verse 19, ‘These be they who separate themselves, sensual {the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion}, having not the Spirit’- the messages they preach reveal the fact that they do NOT have the Spirit of God, which means they are not born again.
     Does a five year old need to hear about masturbation,porn, or oral sex? Does a five year old need to hear about sexual maneuvers, or how to please your mate? NO!!! If a couple is having sexual issues, they need to go to their Pastor in private for counseling. If a Christian is caught up in sexual sin, it needs to be addressed as per Matt. 18. Outside of this, there is no biblical basis for sex to be preached from the pulpit. We all know porn is a sin that infiltrates believers as well as unbelievers,that’s why God gave us biblical guidelines to follow concerning sinful matters such as this. However, we should not be subjected to inappropriate language or topics as a method of shock from the pulpit, it all must be kept within the realm of what the bible teaches.
     When a child has reached the age of understanding concerning sexual behavior, it is the parents responsibility to teach their children the biblical guidelines for sex, NOT a Pastor during a Sunday morning sermon. Same goes for murder, stealing, cheating, etc. God will guide parents when the timing is right to instill these truths in our children.

     We should tremble at God’s word, instead, here’s how Driscoll approaches Holy Writ…
     ‘In his series on humor, the New Testament also gets a Driscoll face lift. Without shame, he turns the issue of circumcision found in Galatians 5 into a crude “cut off your pickle joke.”
     Driscoll sets the stage for more mocking of Scripture by describing the Old Testament as “a redneck hillbilly comedy.” He finds humor in Jacob, Aaron, Moses, Job, Jeremiah, and Noah. For example, he undermines the seriousness of the messages of Jeremiah, a prophet of God, by describing him as someone “who cries like a newly crowned beauty queen all the time.” He laughs at Noah for getting drunk and ending up naked in his tent, and then compares him to “some redneck on vacation.” Why would Driscoll find amusement or pleasure in seeing Noah’s dignity reduced or undermined?

     In light of Driscoll’s comments, it is interesting to recall the biblical account of the reaction of Noah’s three sons. Unlike the response of his son Ham, the other brothers “turned away and they did not see their father’s nakedness”…and surely they did not laugh. On the other hand, for Ham and his descendents,… his response came with a high price. http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/religionsaves/humor

     You may read more at this link from a prior post provided by David T, http://thechristianworldview.com/tcwblog/archives/1640

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115. Dear unworthy1:

     Don’t hold your breath waiting for Scriptural support for this behavior.

     Dear moberti:

     Your comment was approved by another editor, otherwise it wouldn’t have been approved by me. Why? It’s quite simple.

     Besides my explanation in the original post I will add that you (and many other Driscoll defenders like you) keep using erroneous “logic” in defense of your man. Your primary argument can be summed up like this:

     The Bible mentions sex, so therefore all the foul-mouthed, potty-mouthed, vulgar, profane, double entendres, sexual innuendos, explicit language, juvenile gutter humor, and locker room conversations that come from Driscoll’s mouth are fair game!

     Those who try to equate (with a straight face) the manner in which the subject of sex is handled in the Bible with that of the open sewer of smut that comes out of Driscoll’s mouth, exhibit a woeful ignorance of holy writ.

     I do not have the time to waste arguing the obviousness of this point with those who wish to have their ears tickled with sex-talk and drag the beautiful Word of God into the gutter to support their carnal desires.

     With all due respect,
     – The Pilgrim

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116. Thanks for the post, Pilgrim. I’ve been hearing a lot about Driscoll lately, and this really helped make things clear for me, about what kind of person he is. Personally, I think that there is nothing wrong with teaching about sin and man’s fallen nature, HOWEVER, his way of talking and presenting sin is EXTREME, and wrong. The Bible makes plain, without being crude, crass, or causing people to sin, what sin is. There are ways of communicating that filthy, perverted sin is sin, without going into all the gory details. Mr. Driscoll would be well served to read his Bible and see just how well the scriptures communicated this. Needless to say, I don’t think that I will be watching any of his youtube vids anytime soon, or ever, for that matter.

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117. To me it is such a shame that we have to spend more time defending the real gospel to folks in the church to fight this present craziness , than we do in promoting the gospel to unbelievers. That shouldn’t be, but seems to be the reality of our times.

     While we have to do it to keep folks straight, I wonder if THEY (aka Mark Driscoll and peers) realize how much they are not contributing to the real truth as scripture tells it, vs their brand of a ‘culturally relevant gospel going forward. A question I wrestle with all the time.

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118. http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/

     Hey I noticed this website, it seems a bit in tune with the thinking on this website. However they say you have to read the king james version of the bible and claim that CS lewis and Paul Washer are heretics-I thought they were both biblically sound so finding it all confusing. So I shouldnt listen to Mark Driscoll, John Piper according to you because they’re dodgy but is it still safe to listen to Washer? How is it possible to discern correctly?

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119. and – That website has some good information but the owner, David J. Stewart, is rabidly free-will. Hence, I would not recommend it at all except if you want to do research on music and things like that. He also attacks a strawman of Lordship salvation. You might want to check out: http://davidjstewartexposed.blogspot.com/ and http://www.blogcatalog.com/blogs/david-j-stewart-exposed.html. I cannot vouch for them and post for info. purposes alone for people to research.

     As far as who we can listen to, we are all free to listen to whom we choose. Hopefully in time as one matures in the faith, they will be able to discern false teachings and false teachers. Something which honestly every believer needs to do on their own, but many do not and rather hold solely to a given denomination’s beliefs, or those of their favorite teacher, preacher, etc. That is, preacher x said it, so it must be true. Something you will find a lot the “bigger” the preacher gets.

     If the owner of that site flags Paul Washer (I have not verified it) as you say, I would assume the reason is based on Paul’s Calvinistic beliefs and possibly because Paul speaks a lot about how our works must give evidence to our faith. That is, faith without works is dead.

     Hold fast to the Word and God and don’t lose heart. The days are indeed dark but Jesus will not leave us nor forsake us.

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120. Regarding Mark Driscoll and his impecible doctrinal beliefs (I say this with a little sarcasm), I have a question. Who were some of the first to recognize Christ for who He was, His life, ministry, Lordship, and rule as future Judge and King? It was not his own His disciples as you might think. It was the demons crying out of the possessed when Christ came into their midst. James says in his letter “You believe there is one God? Good. Even the demons believe and tremble.” Have you ever considered, in reference to the demons, that their theology is probably about as correct as it gets, but they still chose to rebel against God, and still do. This is not judgment on Mark Driscoll, it is only a response to what I have frequently heard from those who defend him as legitimate because he has “sound doctrinal beliefs”….And to that I say, so do the demons… James also said that any man who does not bridle his tongue, this mans religion is useless. There is a difference between struggling and striving against being vulgar, and full-on embracing it so as to be “relevant.” And there is a difference between a baby Christian and a mature Christian who has learned to put off these things and put on the new man created according to the image of God in true righteousness and holiness. Driscoll has repented from some former misteps years ago, but even in some of his most recent writings he mocks at Christ’s sinless perfection and total obedience to the Father, just read Vintage Jesus, he is unashamed to call Jesus a clepto-looting-bipolar in need of praxil-partying-workaholic. It’s shameful. And this doesnt even begin to address the sexually explicit sermons detailing every kind of sexual position and even referring to websites where you can find diagrams and sex toys… Concerning his continuing vulgarity and crude joking, Ephesians 5 says such things should not even be named among the saints when it comes to coarse jesting and foolish talking, among other things, and that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom, and will in fact cause the judgment of God to fall on the sons of disobedience; and furthermore that we are not to be partakers or partners with them. Is this legalism or biblical? To all you “legalism” stone throwers out there, It’s not legalism if the Gospel of Jesus Christ says it. Also, if you’re a married man, and you’re going to let other men talk so sexually explicit around your wife and children, don’t tell me you understand biblical manhood. No man calling himself a brother is going to speak in such a way to me, especially in the presence of my wife, without hearing a rebuke. If Mark Driscoll wants to show he is truly convicted to live out real biblical manhood, let him show it by purifying his mouth.

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121. Brad:
     Right on! We know them by…their words? NO, but by their fruit. “They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts”. Driscoll continues to display the very opposite of Godly fruit, and grossly so.

     The deceived followers of Driscoll insist he is “reaching the lost for Christ”. My question is: what Christ? The Christ of the Scriptures? Not according to Driscoll’s description of Jesus (as you have noted above, and as I and others have also noted on this blog). Since Driscoll is not preaching the Jesus of the Scriptures, he presents a different Jesus, to the lost. Giving them a false sense of eternal security. He is thus preaching a different gospel, leading many away from the true Christ and only means of salvation. Which makes him not a true Christian at all, but a false teacher (despite his mixture of orthodoxy with his errors – a practice forbidden all through Scripture by the way) and a minister of unrighteousness. His Mars Hill enterprise is thus nothing but a false “church”, a cult, which perpetuates his false teachings through their “missional” activities and “church” planting network.

     Pray for the deliverance of the Driscollites, that the Lord will mercifully open their eyes to their error, and to the truth of His holy word.

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122. I just heard an online sermon on birth control by Mr. Driscoll and when I came to this part,

     I will tell you that sometimes homeschooling networks are petri dishes for legalism and self-righteousness, fundamentalism and sectarianism and all kinds of other ism. It’s religion at its worst. We’re the good people, they’re the bad people. We know we’re the good people because we make our own clothes. Our wife has a dress with a really big collar. We don’t use birth control. We breastfeed til they’re 27. We read the King James Bible. That’s what I’m talking about. That wasn’t very nice. No, but it was very funny. And it’s very accurate.

     I was very saddened and discouraged. We homeschool because of our conviction that God wants us to train our children ourselves, all day long. We don’t think we’re better than other people. There was clapping throughout his talk. I really don’t appreciate that he thinks being funny is reason to be mean.

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123. freida,

     Are you kidding? As much disgust as I have for what I’ve seen and heard from Driscoll, I am sitting here amazed at the arrogance and ignorance of that statement! That fellow should be bound and sat down in the middle of the Texas Home School fair this Spring. He would learn something – like what the Bible says about the fathers teaching their children, not the schools!

     He should start by reading this short article: http://www.voddiebaucham.org/vbm/Blog/Entries/2009/6/25_Top_Five_REasons_Not_to_Send_Your_Kids_Back_to_Govt._School.html

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124. He’s got to make fun of someone to be edgy and relevant and cool. Sarcasm is the favorite tool of modern day “Christian” speakers. He can’t make fun of reformed folks, because they give him his base of credibility, so he’s on the fundamental-bashing bandwagon. One of his “New Year’s Resolutions” posted on his site was to start “making fun of fundamentalists.”

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125. Dear Freida:

     First I want to say that I am sorry that you were subjected to the poison of Mark Driscoll. He seems to be seeping into every corner of evangelicalism lately, and sometimes it feels as if we on DefCon are the few left who have not bowed the knee to this Golden Calf.

     Secondly, has anyone else noticed how MD and his supporters attack anyone who dares hold him to the light of Scripture (or anyone else he/they don’t like)? They love to call anyone who questions their leader names (including Pharisees and judgmental), yet not a peep is heard from them when MD stands in judgment of others that he (and by extension) his followers don’t care for, as well as ridiculing, disrespecting, and mocking them (because they’re apparently not edgy, hip, and cool enough).

     What blatant hypocrisy!

     Finally, Freida, I want to welcome you to DefCon, you are among friends, brothers, and sisters here. We take a lot of heat for our stance against the profane, mocking Driscoll, as well as our belief that the education of our children is the responsibility of parents, and not the secular governmental behavioral engineering centers.

     Welcome.
     – Pilgrim

     P.S. Hey Ministry Addict, do you have a link to that “honorable” New Year’s resolution?

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126. A “New Year’s Resolution” to START making fun of fundamentalists? He’s had a crusade against fundamentalists calling them “very scary”, “fearful”, “wingnuts”, wierdos”, nutjobs” and a whole litany of other derogatory terms, slanders and false descriptions for years. Not just in his sermons, but in most of his books. Mr. Driscoll goes so far as to call those who “speak of evangelism in terms of outreach” as “self-righteous people” who need to “repent”, “because it implies we are not embracing the lost but keeping them at arm’s length”, and their “reaching out” is like a boxer “reaches out” to his opponent with his fist (Radical Reformission, p.78).

     In “Vintage Jesus” Mr. Driscoll further stigmatizes Fundamentalist Christians by “theological” argument. He says they (as a group) accept Jesus as Prophet and King, but not as Priest. Then says because of that, they hold Jesus as someone who is somehow unconcerned, and untouchable, resulting in them being (among other things) “hateful”, and “despairing”.

     In his “Vintage Church” (p.289) he says the Fundamentalist vision is that they see the world has “hopeless and dark”, that they are “fearful”, and that they separate themselves from the world so as not to stain their personal holiness. That they “abhor” the culture around them, are “mean” people, and do nothing to (benefit) the culture.

     These are all seriously false, blanket statements against entire groups of true Bible-believing, God-fearing Christians, and is condemned in Scripture.

     His tactic is simple. Once he has so stigmatized “fundamentalists” as to be the veritable religious retards (and dangerous at that) of Christendom, then anyone who would hold him to the authority of the Scriptures are…you guessed it…”fundamentalists”. Thus he has effectively pre-emptively isolated and dispensed with any critics who would hold him accountable, or who would take serious objection to his teaching, behavior, or methodology based upon the standard of God’s word.

     Then he says “it’s all about Jesus”. Don’t buy it!

     “He that justifies the wicked, and he that condemns the just, both of them are an abomination to the Lord.” (Prov. 17:15)

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127. “# New Years Resolution #6 – I resolve to make fun of fundamentalists for fundamental reasons. 1:10 PM Feb 2nd via HootSuite”

     I’m not involved in twitter, but my former pastor was. Somehow I linked from his site to Driscoll’s. This is the only link I have, but you have to scroll down through a lot of vanity and foolishness b/c it’s a post from Feb. Look for it at your own risk. I don’t want anybody to accuse me of linking them to something worldly or inappropriate.

     Tweets by PastorMark

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128. And as someone often accused of being a fundamentalist, DavidW, I take exception to the term “religious retard.” I prefer to be called “educably slow.”

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129. Ministry Addict:

     You should take exception to such a term, as such is a terrible insult to anyone. And that’s my point.

     I thank God for all who still hold strongly to the fundamentals of the Faith once delivered. If that makes me a fundamentalist, then I will gladly be called one.

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130. DavidW: Sorry, I meant that to be kidding. I didn’t really take exception.

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131. DavidW said:

     His tactic is simple. Once he has so stigmatized “fundamentalists” as to be the veritable religious retards (and dangerous at that) of Christendom, then anyone who would hold him to the authority of the Scriptures are…you guessed it…”fundamentalists”. Thus he has effectively pre-emptively isolated and dispensed with any critics who would hold him accountable, or who would take serious objection to his teaching, behavior, or methodology based upon the standard of God’s word.

     Very astute and well said brother.

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132. I agree that many have taken the sacredness out of the Word of God. I am not sure that I am quite as upset about this as the many above, however I understand the concern behind the comments.
     I think that the gospel can be presented at a “real” level that refers to the life that many live in this present age without compromising the truth (absolute truth) that is present only in the Word of God.
     I am not sure that the wayward direction of the “church” is one of purpose or of ignorance, but we do have a responsibility as fathers (and mothers) to protect those in our direct responsibility (and privilege) – our kids.
     Thanks for all the comments, been challenging, disappointing and encouraging, all at the same time!

     I am so in love with Him…

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133. I don’t know much about Driscoll, though I have to admit I’ve seen some of his snippets on Youtube. He calls himself as an “emerging reformer.” Well..he does sound emerging, but not reforming to me.

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134. My wife and I went to MH once about 3 years ago. Their handling of communion was appalling. They played hoedown music throughout, and seemed intent on removing all traces of reverence. Someone should take him out to the woodshed.

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135. Right on Brother!

     Proof positive that so-called “correct theology” is meaningless unless it results in a changed life.

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136. I posted that Christian Worldview article as part of the problem I had with Driscoll; an acquaintance of mine on Facebook mentioned rollerblading while listening to Driscoll. My acquaintance did the whole “context” argument, and concluded with this troubling statement:

     But ya, until you listen to him with an open mind, at leased not already judging the man, what you hear is 100
     percent bible awesomeness 😉

     Another friend of my acquaintance wrote the following (I chose to censor it):

     I’m sorry but I disagree with every single thing written in that article. Whoever wrote it needs to pull themselves out of their coffin, take off
     their suit, and come back down to earth. And read the Bible.
     It actually angered me. It’s a typical response from someone who’s lived their entire life marinating in “church-ianity”, is terrified by the idea of sharing
     the same planet with all of the non-believing sinners that Jesus suffered & died for, and doesn’t know what to do with themselves anytime anyone uses words
     like pervert, p***, porn, sex, breasts, or idiot. Let alone some of the other completely legitimate, real-world, non-vulgar, completely appropriate words
     Driscoll has used to talk about important, legitimate, real-world, non-vulgar, completely appropriate topics to people who didn’t grow up wearing a suit-and-tie
     to Sunday School singing “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so”, while never being taught about the many, many, many parts of scripture
     that are incredibly graphic, grotesque, gruesome, brutal, sexually explicit, mercilessly descriptive, and downright terrifying parts of scripture that
     God inspired to be written there.
     I don’t agree with all of Driscoll’s doctrines, but the man is real, down-to-earth and honest about every topic he preaches about, including topics that
     many other preachers are too dignified, mature & holy to address. And myself and many other people appreciate that very, very much.
     He preaches scripture without leaving out the undignified, nasty parts. Which is good, because obviously God didn’t leave those parts out either. He inspired
     them, in detail.
     That article is not an attack on any of Mark’s doctrines or the content of his messages, only an attack on the words he uses, and his relating of scripture
     to secular culture. What on earth is the purpose of exegesis if not to interpret scripture so that it’s relevant & makes sense to people of times and cultures
     that scripture wasn’t directly written to?
     And as for attacking him because he uses words like “h**y” and “p****”…I don’t know what to say, other than “grow up”. The intended audience is secularized
     college students & brand-new Christians, not southern preachers or seminary professors.

     ****

     Back to Dee’s commentary:

     A Christian needs to grow up because they take offense at terms like this coming from the pulpit? As stated above here, MD seems like a sophomore high school jock in a locker room trying to be cool enough to impress the seniors. Forget the “his quotes were taken out of context” response; his words speak for themselves! And pure Bible awesomeness? YEAH RIGHT!

     KTTF (keep the True Faith),
     Dee

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137. Dee:

     What you have shared is indeed a common response from Driscoll worshippers/supporters. I’m sure the administrators of this site and other similar discernment sites, could produce hundreds of similar vile and condescending comments from Driscoll followers if they so chose. The hostility toward anyone who would call their cult leader to account to the Scriptures is some of the most vicious I have ever encountered. The tragedy is, their manifestation of his influence upon them testifies to the very polar opposite of biblical love (both for the God of the Bible as well as for fellow Christians), despite their much talk of “loving” the lost. They bear testimony against both the “jesus” Mr. Driscoll preaches, as well as against the legitimacy of Mr. Driscoll himself.

     The poor deceived followers that Mr. Driscoll is leading away from the Jesus of the Scriptures certainly need our earnest prayers.

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138. David W.
     It’s funny that you mention that. I guess I never expected such comments coming at ME!
     I was previously one of those people the Bible talks about, being moved by every wind of doctrine… guess I’m in the trenches now!

     Having a sheltered background, though not a Christian one, I fell into many temptations such as the above article talks about (lust is not solely a guy problem). I’ve seen where an
     unchecked thought life can go… and it’s pretty ugly!

     I checked out a sermon of his that these guys were talking about how AMAZING it is, and I only got to the 5-minute mark before he mentions neck rubs and using the word “hottie!” Now, okay, if this is a specific marriage conference, ok… but this is a church service! I need not continue!

     My eyebrows have hit the ceiling!
     Dee

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139. What has happened to unity? As Christ’s followers we should be united for our love for him, and rather than clashes on the teaching of the Bible we should talk it out. If you think someone is going wrong (Driscoll in this case) then why don’t you through brotherly love confront him, write to him, instead of writing a slanderous article about him on the internet. This isn’t loving, this is pulling Christ’s body apart. We shouldn’t be attacking each other, the athiest’s for example are already doing that job for us.
     So please lets not condemn each other, thats for the Lord to do. However, we are all evil therefore we do not get things right all the time, therefore if someone says something that doesn’t seem right, talk to them, get to the bottom of it. But thank the Lord we have a perfect God to look up to and mirror, lets pray we do that, and through that, that the gospel of the Lord be taught correctly to those who are in the dark.

     Just an after note, Driscoll is one of the only Pastor’s I know of who is brave enough to teach the taboo subject of sexuality, for example the Elders at my Church do not permit Song of Songs to be taught because it’s too explicit. But it is a book of the Bible, and sexuality is extremely prevalent in our society, so Driscoll is right on thinking its an important issue. But because it’s such a taboo subject Driscoll is one of the only people brave enough to preach it plainly, therefore he may particularly choose to preach it because no one else will.

     I have a feeling this won’t be published because you’ll see it as too Driscoll. But I am in no way a ‘Driscollite’, God is my King so it upsets me to see this disunity between God’s people.

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140. Elle

     “What has happened to unity?”

     Should we have unity at the price truth? Should we have unity for the sake of friendship? Should we have unity for the sake of unity? Anyone having even a remote knowledge of the Bible; even someone who hasn’t read the Bible, would reason that that is not a doctrine of the Bible, or highly regarded by its author, who is God.

     Unity is a word used a lot these days by those who have a negative regard for truth and a penchant for deception. So, when you ask, “what has happened to unity?” the answer is simple, it has been hijacked by unbelievers and heretics. But, if you look closely you will find that the unity described in Scripture is still in tact.

     The Bible expressly declares that believers are not to have fellowship with unbelievers and heretics. As a matter of fact there is a curse on those who say they are believers, but preach another gospel. The real problem is that there so few who even know what the Bible says, that when the apostate preacher gives his speech on Sunday morning, all they hear is the eloquence of a finely delivered message, choreographed to the beat of a praise band. They don’t look for truth, they look for self satisfaction, and cannot understand why anyone would criticize such a wonderful godly man. But, rather than explore whether or not the critics speak truth, they blast those who do exactly what their master demands. Wearing a cross around ones neck does not make one a Christ follower, it is the doer of the word who is the Christ follower.

     Please, read your Bible and compare what you read with what Mark Driscoll is saying. It is not rocket science.

     Steve Blackwell
     http://www.IndyWatchman.com

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141. Where is the fear of God?
     Pastors will be held to a higher standard/judgment.
     I speak from experience when I say I knew a man, a pastor/preacher (and most are not BOTH) that so feared he would say something that would grieve the Lord Jesus Christ when he stepped behind the pulpit; He believed that the Lord would strike him dead if he spoke anything untoward.
     Again, I ask, where is the fear of God?
     There is too much man-pleasing, man-centered, man-fearing junk going on everywhere! I am surprised that God has not made a greasy spot out of the lot of us!
     Lord Jesus, have mercy!

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142. Well said Indywatchman. It also grieves me that celebrity preachers are so often given carte blanche by their followers. It is as if they can do no wrong where if anyone says nary a word against them they are blasted as if they are dismantling the foundations of Christianity.

     It is true we must always guard our words and be very circumspect for the measure we use is the one that will be measured against us. Yet one cannot just remain silent when clear violations of both the letter and spirit of the word are trodden under foot.

     Billy Graham is a prime example – the man can be yoked with rank apostates, can preach universalism and praise the pope, yet when these things are elucidated in light of the Scriptures one is castigated for speaking against such a “great” man of God. To this I shake my head and think, how could a “great” man of God do such things?

     Then we have Mark Driscoll who continues to use his shock and awe tactics. One who seems to have no problem yoking himself with the likes of Rick Warren, Perry Noble and others who I’d never call defenders of the faith (see Radicalis website as just one example).

     And still he is defended as his followers allow him perpetual use of his “get of of jail free” card . I just don’t get it.

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143. Accountability for elders is a high calling, for those who follow the Bible. My church recently called two more men (after vetting and training them) to serve in this office and dismissed one (who helped found the church) for things most churches would wink at or overlook entirely. He had been approached privately and asked to repent and submit to accountability and reconciliation. He refused and was rebuked and dismissed in a public meeting.

     Such is the way of a church that dares not compromise on the Word of God.

     As an aside, God is merciful and several men who stood in defense of the dismissed elder were convicted of their sin and went to the elder to ask forgiveness of strengthening his hand when they should have exhorted him to repent. A few days later, the dismissed elder repented and will be working on reconciliation and reformation. This is the way church discipline works among elders. Not a free pass – the responsibility to the church and before God is too high to allow men holding that office to be left alone.

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144. I am neither a “Driscollite” nor a “DefConite” whatever those are. Matter of fact this is the first time I’ve ever commented on any blog post ever. I’m usually content just to read and reflect on others thoughts. However this seems to be a very interesting topic. Im very familiar with Mark Driscoll and his teachings. I don’t view him as a final authority in my life and certainly not a golden calf either. Im also certain from having had personal conversation with him that he does not view himself in that light either.

     Im sure there are times that he could say things in a different manor or a less “shocking” manor. But, perhaps his reasoning is less motivated by “shock” and more motivated by passion. The fact is that for the last several centuries, in these areas of the Bible we have been both silent and negligent. And today with millions of people struggling with sexual sins such as pornography, homosexuality and adultery, I think it’s clear that while we as pastors and ministers may have a handle on what the Bible has to say about it, the world has formed there opinion from everything BUT the scriptures. So I guess my thought is whether or not it’s perceived as “insatiable” or passionate if not from the pulpit then where is it ok to use this type of terminology, in a Biblical context of course.? The Bible is neither negligent nor is it silent on these “debase” topics, and we shouldn’t be either.

     In addition, I want to say that I am sorry that your children were prematurely exposed to “wicked sins”, as a parent I know the struggle it is to protect our children from the lust of the world. However I do fail to see how that’s Driscoll’s fault. Im not familiar with Pilgrim radio Im not sure what their mission is or if they have certain times during the day where the content is more adult in nature; however my assumption is that Driscoll does not decide when and what is played. While I can sympathize with your frustration, your frustration is not a reason to condemn another brother, stating “how dare he call himself a pastor, my kids were in the car”, how would Mark Driscoll know that? My kids which range from 7 to 1 yrs in age have overhead my wife and I having conversation that I may have preferred for them not to hear, but that does not make the content sinful. Maybe a call or letter to pilgrim was necessary to express concern, but Im not sure, why the rash treatment of Mark Driscoll is.

     What I fail to see as a Christian is while the “Driscollites” are not allowed to comment, apparently anyone who wants to criticize another brother in Christ is welcome to say what ever they please about him. I find this both sad and unfortunate. Just my thoughts.

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145. Aaron,

     Thanks for your comment.

     You said:

     “What I fail to see as a Christian is while the ‘Driscollites’ are not allowed to comment, apparently anyone who wants to criticize another brother in Christ is welcome to say what ever they please about him. I find this both sad and unfortunate. Just my thoughts.”

     What I find sad and unfortunate is that you (and so many others) trivialize this as we’re just criticizing Driscoll. Seriously. Is that how shallow you view us? Also, anyone who refers to Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and Robert Schuller as his brothers, is no brother of mine.

     If you have the time, I recommend perusing this blog regarding past posts on Driscoll. The issues are not as shallow as you (and others) constantly try to make them out to be. Type “Driscoll” into the search engine and you will see that our reasons for opposing Driscoll is not so one-dimensional.

     Also, I put a stop to Driscoll defenders (even those who open their comments by saying “I’m not defending Driscoll, but . . . “) because we have gone ’round and ’round with them in past posts and after all that time, energy, and effort, it proved to be futile as neither side was going to change their position. We found ourselves arguing the same points to no avail, so it was my decision to no longer waste precious time on those who refused to see the forest for the trees.

     There’s so much more to the Driscoll dynamic than just what the above post addresses, and I encourage you to delve deeper into exactly why it is that we have taken the stance that we have.

     Sincerely,
     – Pilgrim

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146. If anything I really pity and feel sad for what I read and hear about Mark Driscoll. I actually never heard of the guy until I started going to a church that I felt unloved and judged by the pastor and his wife. I knew the pastor really likes and looks up to someone named Mark Driscoll. So I googled him and watched some of his sermons on Youtube. I immediatly sensed the judjement coming from him. At first I was upset at how Driscoll acted and then realized that I actually felt sad for him. The reason why is because he does not understand that God is love and the judjement he puts out is the judement he feels towards himself. So by judging others so harshly he is really hurting himself. He does not understand the love of God for himself yet, so he cant recognize it for others eithier. Love for God and others is a stronger motivation to do good than fear being the motivator.

     To me its very simple. to follow God is to love the poor, the widows, orphans, materially and spiritually poor, prisoners, and the sick and dying. If we are not doing this then we are not following the holy message of our father in heaven Jesus Christ.

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147. @Brenda

     I agree with you that God is love, additionally God is perfect love. What I don’t agree with is your stance on judgement. I completely agree that we as Christians are to live to love the poor and weak and sinner, and bring them to Christ who undoubtedly loves them more than any of us will ever be able. The problem is God hates sin, so much so that if we never truly repent of that sin, we may never truly know the power of Christ’s redeeming love. I would argue that Mark is what I would call an extreme, and I don’t think many who frequently listen to him would disagree. I see a purpose in Mark’s preaching style because he offsets the Joel Osteen’s of the would who would rather tell you what you want to hear, than the hard, Biblically challenging verses which talk about God’s wrath. I think that Matt Chandler said it best when he told a room full of speaking pastors that you need to “fulfill your own ministry.” Meaning: not every church needs / wants a Mark Driscoll, but some do. I personally love how Francis Chan engages really hard topics such as God’s eternal judgement from a lens of desperate empathy. I might be very off here, but I would make the argument that God’s love is tied to His wrath, and are not mutually exclusive. So to feel sad for a man who seems to exist to push the buttons of many by engaging doctrine which is not popular might be slightly off base.

     Anyways, I am so grateful that so many passionate Christ followers care enough to blog about this, but also sad of how much energy is wasted on hatred for those who preach the Gospel in its entirety. Might I submit to my brothers and sisters in Christ to look at his scripture used, and his interpretation rather than delivery. If there are still significant issues, that’s another argument.

     May God show all of you His abundant love and truth.

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148. Stumbled across this thread.

     Wish I had seen it back when I was first exposed to the blatant perversion and foolish mockery of Big D and the Driscollites. It might have been a good support for me at that time when it appeared the whole (christian) world was chasing after these dog vomit peddlers.

     Oh, well. I see this thread now. And people are still commenting on it a year and a half later.
     I’m relieved that there are more people who see through this sham than it first appeared.

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149. Chadwick:

     Regarding your statement:

     “Might I submit to my brothers and sisters in Christ to look at his scripture used, and his interpretation rather than delivery. If there are still significant issues, that’s another argument.”

     It’s not his “style” or “delivery” that’s the problem . It’s not that he’s “different” or “extreme”. The problem is, that he preaches a different gospel, a different Jesus, and numerous other abominations (please refer to Gal.1:6-9). He is adept at mixing truth with error. Hiis current behavior disqualifies him not only from being a pastor, but from being a biblical elder. Please read the other threads on this site regarding Driscoll, and I hope you will see there are indeed “significant issues”.

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150. We should pray that he watches his mouth, when I pray for him I usually say “Lord, Please guide Mark Driscoll, but MAKE him watch his mouth”

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151. Sean P:

     I think you’re missing the point. It’s not his mouth that’s the problem, but his heart (Luke 6:45). He displays an unregenerate heart in consistently teaching that which is contrary to the Scriptures, in recommending unbiblical practices and heretical authors, in his stubborn unrepentance, in his destruction of the true faith. He is a worker of unrighteousness, and the only prayer I have for him is that the Lord would save him and grant him repentance for leading multitudes to follow a false Christ.

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152. Yo DavidW (and anyone else who wants to reply),

     Very few men have convicted me towards sanctification like pastor Mark has… so I have some vested interest when I ask:

     Would you mind maybe sending/posting some links to some of the arguments made by those who believe pastor Mark is preaching a different Gospel than Jesus taught?

     I’ve read a few arguments, but never any that rang true (other than he cusses too much). I did hear about the unfortunate incident with some elders at Mars Hill who were basically removed for their strong disagreement with the direction of the church… but other than that, I’ve never read anything that comes even close to heresy or another Gospel.

     Please don’t dismiss me as a Driscoll fan-boy. I’m asking out of sincerity. The reason I’ve singled you out is because you seem to be the latest commenter to use such strong accusations like “false Christ” and “different Gospel” and “contrary to Scripture”….

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153. often what a person claims to have such an loathing for is exactly what they themselves struggle with the most. Driscoll apparently has his own personal struggle with sexual deviance which could also be connected to his disrespect toward women (only sees them as objects). he is simply using projection, or transferrence, of this sexual deviants on to his followers by preaching to them how wrong it is. he believes that by doing so, he is absolving himself. not very Christ-like.

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154. Jono:

     Thank you for the sincere inquiry. Since you asked for sites, check these out for starters:

     http://thechristianworldview.com/tcwblog/archives/1640

     http://defendingcontending.com/2008/09/27/john-macarthur-on-mark-driscoll/

     http://defendingcontending.com/2009/04/17/john-macarthur-on-mark-driscoll-part-2/

     http://apprising.org/2011/01/16/mark-driscoll-acts-29-network-the-emerging-church/

     This can get really long. So I’ll try to be very brief. It’s not the good, or true things that Mark Driscoll teaches that’s the issue, but that which he does and teaches that is contrary to the Scriptures that’s the problem. Because according to Jesus, it doesn’t matter whether we call Him Lord, or do wonderful works in His name that matters. If we are ALSO doing (practicing) what He forbids, all our claims to Christianity are nullified and we are rejected by Him (Matt. 7:21-23). We are also commanded to take notice of those who bring division in the church with their false teaching and reject them (Rom. 16:17).

     Here are some issues to consider:
     1) The Gospel is inseparable from the personality, character, attributes and identity of the Triune God. If God (whether Father, Son or Holy Spirit) is in any way distorted, perverted, or presented in any way which is contrary to or at odds with how He is presented in the WHOLE of His word, then that which is being presented is NOT the God of the Bible. Any perversion of God, or irreverence of Him is known as Blasphemy. Some of those attributes and personalities of the God of the Bible is that He is all-holy, all-righteous, all-just, all-pure, all-loving, sinless, incorrupt, all-good, all-true. And that the Biblical Jesus is meek, humble, non-worldly, non-fleshly, turn the other cheek, and loving of His enemies, even those who crucified Him (as He commands us).

     Mark Driscoll mocks God and presents a worldly, perverted Jesus, as well as perverting the character of God. Here is a small sampling of Mark’s actual words:

     “God is thirty years of age and a classic underachiever…But apparently God is fun to hang with, because he and his posse get invited to a lot of parties…”(The Radical Reformission, p.30)

     “Jesus …is always surrounded by a crowd, telling knock knock jokes to miscreants who love his sense of humor” (Ibid, p.30)

     “God has come to earth, and he kicks things off as a bartender” (Ibid, 30)

     Refers to Jesus as the “ultimate fighter Jesus” with “tattoos up his leg”, a “thug” (from a video clip on “Doctrine: What should Christians believe”)

     Refers to Jesus as a “win a fight, punch you in the nose dude” (from Christianity Today, 4/18/08)

     These (and many more) are all unbiblical twists and distortions on the personality and character of the Jesus of the Bible. Mark Driscoll presents the Biblical Jesus as a clown and buffoon, but his own version of Jesus as a brawling thug. Thus Mars Hill’s slogan: “It’s all about Jesus”, is not referring to the true Jesus as He is described in the Bible, but a “jesus” built in Mark Driscoll’s image. Such a distorted, unbiblical “jesus” is what Paul calls “another jesus” (2 Cor.11:4). “Another jesus” has no power to save, and thus any “gospel” attributed to him is a false gospel, because it places one’s eternal security in the wrong person.

     2) God elevates His word above His own holy name. It is not to be trifled with, nor blasphemed, nor perverted (see Ps. 138; Titus 2:5; 1Tim.6:1). Yet Mark Driscoll goes on at length mocking and ridiculing the things of God’s word, laughing at the great men of the Bible throughout the Scriptures in his sermon on “humor” as well as in his book “Radical Reformission”. Then tops it off with: “Doesn’t the story [of Jesus] sound like the plot of a trashy, daytime television talk show?” (Radical Reformission, p.29). Mark presents a lax, irreverent, trifling view of God’s word, and God condemns that.

     3)Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit conforms us into the image of Christ. In the process we are changed from being degenerate, fleshly, worldly and perverted, into a pure-thinking, holy before God, righteous-behaving people. In obedience to Jesus we deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Jesus according to His word. We put to death sin, fleshliness, worldliness and everything of the old fallen human nature.

     Mark Driscoll’s penchant for telling sexual jokes (from the pulpit, in his books, on national T.V.), his infamous cussing mouth, his blasphemies of God’s word, his mockeries of the things of Scripture, betray his own unregenerate state (I could go on with a sampling of his foul mouth, but I hope his reputation for that is already known).

     4) A true Christian pastor must meet the Biblical criteria: 1Tim.3:2-7; Titus 1:7-9. Mark Driscoll, by his own words and behavior has disqualified himself from that office. Worse still, his playful lewdness of speech, his spiritual impurity, and his perverse language is testimony that he has a vain mind, a blind heart, a darkened understanding, and is alienated from the life of God (Eph.4:17-29). And from such people we are commanded to turn away from.

     If this weren’t enough, Mark Driscoll is also a heretical teacher (particularly in his teaching on Song of Solomon, in which he has taught that God COMMANDS oral sex, and if the wife doesn’t perform it she is in sin). On his web site he also recommends teachers who teach unbiblical practices.

     Jono, out of sincere concern for your spiritual safety, flee from Mars Hill, and particularly from Mark Driscoll. Find a solid Bible-based church (one NOT affiliated with nor supportive of the Acts 29 Network).

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155. DavidW,

     Most excellent reply.

     My son belongs to a church north of Seattle that was part of the Acts29 network for a few years. They found out that Acts29 is basically a business, not a ministry. Details of what they went through are grievous.

     At least now all should know that BOTH Mars Hills “churches” ought to be avoided.

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156. DavidW,

     Thanks for the time spent on your reply. It’s appreciated. I’m typing on my mobile so this will be brief… sorry for the brevity…

     I’m very interested to hear who some of the men are that you go to for counsel/teaching… Are there perhaps some authors/pastors I know that we have mutual respect for? Perhaps some books or sermons you recommend as duely influential or agreeable?

     Thanks again for your time. I’m sincerely pursuing an understanding of your arguments and concerns for Mark and his teachings.

     Thanks,

     jono

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157. Thanks for deleting my comments. U obviously have a one sided argument and the other side must be “blasphemus” right?? You claim your self that you never listened to Driscol! You sound so friggin dumb dude.

     Suck a d pilgrim! And thank you to all who slander others. You make all christians look dumb!

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158. F pilgrim,

     Your comment speaks so loudly about you that no other observation or comment about you is necessary.

     “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you fail to meet the test! “

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159. Perhaps, F Pilgrim, you would have been better served by e-mailing Pilgrim and asking why the comment was deleted.

     It’s a source of fascination for me about how much common sense and decency are gone because of the Internet.

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160. jono:

     Regarding your question:

     “I’m very interested to hear who some of the men are that you go to for counsel/teaching… Are there perhaps some authors/pastors I know that we have mutual respect for? Perhaps some books or sermons you recommend as duely influential or agreeable?”

     Actually, jono, it’s a bit difficult to know who we would have mutual respect for (given that I don’t know much about you). But as for contemporary authors, I can’t think of anyone more solid than John MacArthur. When I was a young Christian I was particularly benefited by his “The Gospel According to Jesus” and “Faith Works”. More recently his “The Truth War” offered some great insight on what is happening in the churches today.

     As for other good teachers and sermons, check out the “categories” on this page which will direct you to lots of good stuff to read/listen to.

     Having said that, though, I must emphasize the importance of daily study of God’s word, and walking in obedience to it. God’s word is the ultimate authorty and will never lead you astray.

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161. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
     2 Cor 11:13-15

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162. I wrote this article 5 years ago in response to the cussing preacher and a few others who make a name for themselves shocking people as they preach. Sadly, it is nothing new, and has become for many quite an old controversy. Reject a divisive man after a couple of warnings, and Driscoll has been warned more than twice about this!

     http://timeintheword.wordpress.com/2006/03/20/a-shocking-truth-about-the-making-of-disciples/

     ~pastorway

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163. For anyone to claim the title Christian and claim they do not sin ever, they are fooling themselves and are liars. No one is righteous, NOT ONE. Everyone needs repentence from the Lord and forgiveness is always there, a free gift from God for those who fall down, and humble themselves. For nobody keeps the Law perfectly, that is the whole reason Jesus came, to be and do what we cannot do for ourselves. Preaching all law and no gospel is not christianity, and it is not what Jesus and the apostles taught.

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164. I dont’ believe in keeping these phenomena secret from little children. It’s difficult to treat it as a fact of life, but it is possible. Their minds accept them as they are able. Just don’t make a big deal of it. In biblical times everyone understood what virginity was and that married people had sex and God made babies from this amazing act. It was everyday life.

     My kids have known what a prostitute is from a young age, not long after they understood that only married people rightly “sleep together.” They don’t have to know all the mechanics, but they will find out eventually and a parent ought not to shock, just like driscoll ought not to.

     When my kids were young they got caught playing ‘doctor’ with their little friends and the other kid’s mom was horrified. I was embarrassed, but we went out and bought one of those Christian ‘kids’ level sex books and talked to our girls about it matter of factly. I did NOT want to yet. But we had to. Had we punished them for this and never talked about it until they were ‘older’ they would have simply been dying of curiosity and it would have made it even more attractive like the ‘forbidden fruit.’

     As it is both my girls are not particularly guy-crazy. We talk frankly and respectfully about the phenomenon when it comes up. Well, the kids are less respectful than we are, but that happens when you’re around other kids that age. We correct that when we see it.

     This is not a defense of Mark Driscoll. There is a difference between mentioning the concept as Scripture does (rightly condemning sinful things), and going on and on about it to bring people’s minds back to the concept. While the drive to address sensitive topics others may wrongly shy from is possibly admirable, the opposite error, to obsess on those topics, is not. Nor is addressing sensitive topics insensitively as he does more often than not.

     In Scripture, some shocking language *is* used when speaking of sinful attitudes about sex. But never when speaking of the purity of the marriage bed. If someone can’t tell the difference and uses shocking language inappropriately, I’m not sure how I can explain it. It’s one of those “you know it when you hear/see it” kind of things.

     “I also don’t have a problem with Driscoll bringing up the sad phenomenon of supposedly Christian men justifying the use of porn, to show us how far the church has strayed from holiness. I would have to hear how he did it. I have been very unimpressed with his attitude before, so I would not be surprised to find he did poorly here again.”

     He supposedly just participated in a Song of Solomon seminar at James Macdonald’s church. Someone said Mark felt convicted and ‘redid’ that series, but I have my doubts. I wouldn’t want to check it out a second time. ugh.

     I also had turned on Pilgrim Radio and heard Mark Driscoll talking about men liking noisy power tools because it drowns out the constant yapping of the wives they hate. Are you kidding me? This was coming from the pulpit and Pilgrim Radio thought this was acceptable? What an obnoxious thing to say!

     Good grief. Wonder if he ever takes potshots at husbands on behalf of the wives, for men’s constant thinking about sex? Now, Scripture does say that it is better to live on a corner of a roof than with a contentious wife. But there’s something different in the way Driscoll expresses this here. Nothing is said about the wife other than she talks too much. It says nothing about whether she is contentious or any other unfavorable sinful attitude. In fact the statement seems to be justifying the sinful attitude of the husband instead.

     It sounds like his attitude about women hasn’t changed since it became clear to me around the time of Ted Haggard’s disgrace, when he somehow made pastoral infidelity partially the wife’s fault:

     “At the risk of being even more widely despised than I currently am, I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this. It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.”
     taken from
     Thou Shalt Not Let Thyself Go?

     Although Mark has pulled the original post where this statement occurred, and supposedly apologized, it sounds as though his attitude remains unchanged. Sad. So much for Piper getting through to him. I think rather Piper has been pulled farther from the truth (as evidenced by his dallying with Doug Wilson and now vociferously defending and befriending Rick Warren!)

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165. Eric,

     I don’t understand your point, nor what it has to do with this thread.

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166. Wow! I am sorry that your family was subjected to filth but I’m glad to see a husband and father stand up for our L-rd and his family. Your wife’s experience is why I purchased an MP3 player, subscribe to those shepherds who preach the Word of G-d without compromise, download them every night, and play it back while at work and on the subway. You might consider doing that since most cars can be plugged into using a cigarette lighter adapter. That way you control exactly what your children hear. I’m glad that I’m not the only one who cares about this.

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167. @ Eric Lintz:
     Whew, good thing no one here claims to be without sin.

     @ Paula:
     I agree with what you said. I don’t have an issue so much with the subjects that were addressed by Driscoll (many of which are Biblical), but I do have a problem with the juvenile handling of said issues. Turning these matters into potty jokes and gutter talk (in so many of his messages) is what I object to. And the fact that my wife was alarmed by it when she heard his mouth (and she’s not some over-sensitive, anti-Driscoll “watchblogger”) speaks volumes that it doesn’t take a lot refined discernment to know filth when you hear it.

     I’ve added two additional paragraphs to the original post in order to clarify this and I hope it prevents further confusion. Here is what I added:

     “Now let me clarify something to avoid any confusion, I am not opposed to such words (and dealing with such subjects) as “prostitution” and “whores.” They are real sins, and they are addressed within Scripture. What I am opposed to is the use of these subject (ad nauseum I might add) by Driscoll (or anyone else for that matter) to make people laugh or to be shocking. There is a way to handle sensitive and weighty issues such as these without reverting to a juvenile mentality.

     It’s the same as the expression “Oh my God.” The words themselves are not the problem, but the spirit behind them and how they’re being delivered. The way the Psalmist cries out “Oh my God” is completely different than the way a thirteen-year-old girl shrieks “Oh my God” when the boy she has a crush on invites her to prom. If you cannot see the difference, then I don’t expect you to understand the point of this post.”

     @ Luci:
     Thank you for the encouragement. Trust me, you’re a small voice in a large sea of opposition, but it is greatly appreciated. And as for MP3 players, we use them, me more than my wife, as I listen to many sermons each week (many of which are posted in our sermons category).

     – Pilgrim

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168. I just subscribed! This is just the blog I’ve been looking for.

     Thanks Pilgrim!

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169. Just to add my .02,

     Mark driscoll admitted last fall that he’s a fan of Jay-z, the hip-hop artist whose fans refer to him as “hova” or jehova God.

     Isn’t a pastor supposed to be blameless?

     (maybe the rap music is a reason for his cussing?)

     here’s the link:

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170. Jay,

     Thanks for sharing. For those who may not be aware of this “genius” that Driscoll is so impressed with, a simple read through Jay Z’s lyrics on http://www.jayzonline.com/lyrics.php , reveals a profuse amount of the most foul language imaginable, mixed in at times with references to God and Jesus. Song titles alone include “Ignorant S***”, “F*** All Night”, “P***y”, “B****es and Sisters”, etc. etc. Such things may be the language and the music that the unsaved like to hear, but no Christian should have any part of it. There certainly is nothing truly honoring to the all-Holy, all-Mighty Creator God in it, because all such foul language is specifically forbidden by God in His word. Scripture is clear, we must abide by God’s rules, not make up our own (2 Tim.2:5). And those who scoff at or ignore God’s rules (as defined by His Word), are merely heaping God’s judgment upon themselves.

     As an alleged “christian” “pastor”, Driscoll’s recent admiration for and endorsement of Jay Z to his flocks (“Mars Hill” is a multiple “campus” franchise) not only continues to disqualify him from holding the pastoral office, but is further evidence of the rotten fruit of his continued unrepentant, unregenerate state.

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171. I’m not a fan of Driscoll’s, nor am I against him. I have been checking him out, trying to figure him out. It seems like he’s doing what he knows to attract more men to the church by coming across as the cool, manly, watched too many Michael Bay movies pastor. I can’t blame him, the church needs men to step up. Regarding porn talk, as a recovered porn addict, I think it’s important to be open and talk about it. The Bible says a lot about sexual sin. Just like TV, parents should be aware of the nature of what they’re listening to, and not assume because it’s on Christian radio, it’s appropriate for ears of all ages. Or do these stations offer warnings before a program starts?
     -Tommy

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172. Dear Tommy,

     Thanks for your comment.

     I agree most pastors need to “step up,” but the handling and delivery of the sacred Word of God can still be done respectfully and with reverence without having to be low brow. In fact, this blog posts a weekly sermon of the week (every Thursday) featuring solid pastors (many of whom have “stepped up” on issues relevant and challenging to what believer’s struggle with) without being provocative or vulgar or profane.

     Rest assured, had this been the one and only instance, and if this was the only issue I had with Mark Driscoll, I would have not bothered to write such a post. But this is just one of many issues that we’ve addressed here regarding Driscoll. You can type “Driscoll” into our search engine for further.

     Thanks again.

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173. I listened to his preaching about wives submitting to their husbands (which I do not disagree) but after listening to him, I didn’t want to get married again because the impression I got was as though marriage was salary rather than a strong and deep relationship where both parties serve each other. It was more judgmental than a well solid message. I would never listen to his preaching again…….

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174. @manfred…i scrolled through this whole post and i must admit that i gave a resounding amen to every post you put on here…look me up on facebook…i wouldn’t mind talking to you about some other topics

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175. @MarcStrump – Many thanks for your kind encouragement. I do not do Facebook – it’s a line my wife and I have drawn in AlGore’s cyberspace 🙂 You can email me if you like – check my profile page on my mostly inactive personal blog: http://brogdensmuse.blogspot.com/ May the Lord bless you and be your refuge and provision in all circumstances, for the glory of His name.

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176. Interesting thread. I didn’t know about Mark Driscoll, till I read an article on Slate.com about Rachel Held Evans.
     Anyway just wanted to say that:
     1. His teaching style is not my cup of tea
     2.Pastors like him, and the back and from between his followers and those against his teachings are the reason why I haven’t been to a church in about 8 years. This is not a specific slight on anyone in particular, but to me it’s really confusing how both sides of the argument can be seriously convicted by the Holy Spirit/God that their side is correct.
     3. (This is directed to Driscolites) How can you say you have respect for your wife/mother/grandmother when you willingly listen to someone who makes such disrespectful off the cuff remarks? If I had a friend in my house who said laughingly, the reason my dad may have left my mom is because she let herself go, I would let him/her know that it’s not really funny and while I may let that incident go, I would limit myself to my interactions with that person. Why in the name of what’s holy, would you willingly place yourself under the spiritual authority of someone who says things like this? Is it a case where people are making excuses for him because they like him?

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177. it’s laziness and misplaced faith….people would much rather take what the preacher says as truth and life without ever opening the Bible up and reading it. they treat it as if it were nothing more than a piece of literature. the Bible is how we find out what God sounds like and how God operates…so needless to say if people never study and find out the truth for themselves then they will not hear God when He speaks because they have no idea who He is, how HE operates or what He sounds like. reading the truth of the Bible and seeing story after story of the manifested power of God has to strengthen your faith when you handle it correctly. so if faith and trust in the Lord stay the same in the person and they never grow….well just say that it stand to reason that it isn’t God with holding from people.

     matt. 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

     14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

     15“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

     16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

     17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesd will not overcome it 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

     if you study then you realize that Jesus never told Him that He was the Son of God before this point, other wise Jesus wouldn’t have said what he did after that. a lot of people get it wrong and believe that it was peter that He was referring to when He said the rock, but as time and testimony show, people are wrong. it was the fact that peter got the revelation of who Jesus was without some earthly person spoon feeding to Him…the rock the church is built on is the revelation of who Jesus is and blessing came in peters life when he came to understand that and learn that through studying and praying and perpetuation a one on one relationship with God.

     ever wonder why preachers fall? ever wonder why churches fall a part? ever wonder why so many people are deceived and duped by these false teachers? it’s because they have no idea who Jesus is…
     ————————————-
     15“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

     if Jesus was standing face to face with today’s church and asked us this question…i wonder what we would say?

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178. JOHN MACARTHUR – ROB BELL RICK WARREN MARK DRISCOLL SERMON JAM

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179. Amen. I agree with you on Driscoll’s mouth reflecting his heart. This is disgusting esp coming from someone in the pulpit.

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180. At the outset, I will say that I am a huge fan of Driscoll. Not because of the bad but because of the good.

     On one side, he knows that he struggles with his filter at times (Who doesn’t) and has confessed it multiple times while stating that it is one area he is in the process of repentance. On the other hand, consider his context, Seattle, WA. Not sayin that to justify all his harsh words, but definitely some.

     One thing I hope we can agree on, is that Driscoll has had a large positive impact on the younger generation who are now seeking to dig deeper into their word and theology. Additionally, he encourages men to be men and father their children with love while teaching them the gospel, rather than legalism which I was taught growing up.

     To use a Driscoll-ism on Driscoll, we must not either receive or reject, but also redeem. Every pastor is going to have bad qualities and good, so we are responsible for finding the good and correcting the bad. As a pastor who has multiple times confessed his struggles (Something many pastors don’t do) we know where to start our prayers FOR him (Not AGAINST).

     As one way of example, if we’re going to reject Driscoll because of the harshness of the things he says, then should we also reject Martin Luther because of anti-semitic statements? While I understand you may want to appeal to how you believe Driscoll uses the harshness as humor, we could say that it is possible that Luther did the same since records state he had a personality as well.

     I really hope you don’t just kick this comment out because I am a supporter of him. Like all Christians he makes mistakes, only his are more visible (And more blogged about); I fully support discussion and can admit when I am wrong, but in reference to point (3), I found this post by accident and wanted to voice my side since all the other comments seem to lean the other direction.

     If anything, you may contact me on Facebook or some other medium. Thank you for your time and God bless bud!

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181. Kris:

     Thank you for your honest opinion. My sister is also a huge fan of Mark Driscoll, as are some of my friends. I’ve also read 5 of his books and listened to countless hours of his sermons. So I’m familiar with his beliefs and teachings.

     Mark Driscoll does use the Bible, he does encourage “men to be men”, and he does seem to have a positive impact on the younger generation. But then, don’t the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, and Jehovah’s Witnesses all use the Bible as well, even encouraging people to dig deeper into their Bible? The Mormons certainly have a “positive impact” on the younger generation in my town. So certainly there is more to determining what is of God than what may seem like positive results.

     But the bottom line for the Christian must be: Who is my God, what has He said, and what is my response to Him? For these answers, we must turn to the only solid, authoritative source of truth. And that is not in what our pastor/preacher says, nor in what our church says, nor public opinion, nor in our own feelings or philosophies, but in God’s own Word to us (the Bible). By it we test all religious teachings and teachers, as well as our own thoughts, to see whether they be truly of God. Indeed, it is utterly foolhardy NOT to test our teachers (Matt.7:15; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1Jn.4:1). And by the Bible, and the Bible only, will we be judged for all eternity (Jn.12:48).

     I understand your desire to find the good in Mr. Driscoll, and your desire to “correct the bad”. If this were a case of personal struggles in the flesh that Christian men deal with, I would certainly also pray for a man to overcome such personal struggles by the power of Christ within. Tragically, this just isn’t the case with Mr. Driscoll. “Struggling with his filter” really doesn’t begin to address the depth nor heart of Mr. Driscoll’s errors. And as for his claim that he is “in the process of repentance” and such like, he’s been making such claims for many years now, yet continues his false teaching and unbiblical behavior. Rather than hashing out again the many lengthy details of what has already been said before, I urge you to honestly read for yourself what has been documented on this site (simply search above for “Driscoll”). There you will find posts and valuable comments which contain profusely documented evidence addressing Driscoll’s false teachings (teachings from the pulpit and/or in his books which are contrary to the Scriptures), as well as specifically forbidden behavior which renders him unqualified to be a Christian elder or pastor.

     As we look in Scripture for the concept of overlooking the bad in favor of the good, we simply don’t find that in regard to truth or righteousness. Nor does God allow mixture of His truth and righteousness with error and unrighteousness. In fact He ALWAYS condemns such mixture. Jesus is very clear on this (see Matt.7:21-23, Rev. 2). Paul also makes the same thing clear for the Christian today:

     “Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,” 2 Cor. 6:15-17

     The very name for Church: “Ekklesia”, means “called out ones”. The word for “holy” (as in 1 Pet.1:16: “be ye holy for I am holy”) is “hagios”, carrying a very similar meaning: “different from the world” because it is “like the Lord”. The Christian is called out of the world and is to leave it behind to follow Christ. That’s why we proclaim the Gospel to the world, and show them a transformed life in obedience to Christ which is miraculous evidence of His Spirit living in us. We are not “very much like them (the unsaved), but redeemed”. On the contrary, we are entirely new creatures, very UNLIKE the world around us, and we show that through holy, transformed, non-worldly living and thinking.

     Tragically, Mr. Driscoll has perverted all this. He has perverted the very concept of the Church, bringing the world and it’s perversions into it. He has perverted God’s Word, deconstructing much of it and redefining it to conform to his own idea of “Christianity” as he wants it to be. He is leading many to follow a false “christ” who is not the Jesus Christ Who is described in the Scriptures but rather a “christ” fashioned in his own image.

     In saying all this, please understand, I certainly do not hate Mr. Driscoll. His teaching and behavior display a very deceived man, who in turn is deceiving thousands of others. I would like nothing better than for him to repent, to repudiate his false teachings, and to truly become born again.

     Kris, I sincerely and urgently pray that you study God’s Word, not through “Driscoll glasses”, but study it for what it says, and pray for the Lord to open your eyes to His Truth. Your eternity depends on it. Farewell.

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182. Excellent, excellent reply, DavidW.

     The only thing I would hasten to add is: take a close look at Driscoll’s ACTUAL fruit instead of the spin doctoring!

     “How dare you suggest pastor Mark is bearing bad fruit! Why, 9 gazillion people were baptized by him personally last week alone, and he’s built 400,000 churches with his own two hands out of 100% recycled, environmentally friendly, renewable and biodegradable materials that reduce the carbon footprint of the Christian church as a whole by 45% and he personally feeds the entire homeless population west of the Mississippi in his own home each week! How dare you! As if! Hater!”

     See, Driscoll’s rabid fanboys and erstwhile defenders are their own worst enemies. They’re his fruit!

     Driscoll makes converts to Driscoll instead of making coverts to Christ.

     Driscoll makes disciples of Driscoll instead of disciples of Christ.

     Driscoll multiplies Driscoll.

     He’s a cult of personality.

     I challenge anyone to honestly ask themselves what would become of Mars Hill Church and its big screen satellite clone “church plants” if Driscoll dropped dead tomorrow, or simply came out and said, “Ya know what, I don’t believe this stuff anymore and I’m moving on, so long suckers!”

     It would last about two seconds before it collapsed under its own dead, bloated weight, that’s what.

     In Christ,
     CD

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183. I respect True Faith,as an Orthodox Believing Jew the very things you have stated are of course written in Torah. Yes there are words in Torah for people who practice certain trade professions.
     As we see about Yehudah & Tamar, Yehudah thought Tamar was a Kahdesha, and she was even veiled. “Kahdesha” means “Devoted to” from the word “Kadosh” which means “Holy”.
     What do we learn here from the Lord’s choice of words? That even when we might use a not-nice word,we should strive to use clean language.
     Chasidut teaches that “Where our thoughts are,there we dwell”. When a person wants to bring another fellow human closer to G-D he can remember this : “Words from the heart in truth spoken in truth will find their way into the person’s heart & have a G-Dly effect for good”.
     If we hear not- positive language speaking of the Lord we will only recieve the shell of the speech while the fruitful truth will not be recieved in our hearts nor mind.
     G-D Bless You all from the Holy Land
     Nachliel

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184. The scary thing is the influence he’s had…He’s written for CRI (Hank Hanegraaff) before. And he was supposed to be the good guy because he’s “emergent” yet opposed to Rob Bell and his fellow army of liberals.

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185. Francho:

     Excellent point. Just because someone may be opposed to Rob Bell doesn’t necessarily make him one of “the good guys”. Emergent Bell has his target audience, and Emergent Driscoll has his. But the goal is the same: to destroy the Faith once delivered unto the saints. The enemy has been doing this sort of manipulation from the beginning.

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186. Never heard of him befoe until tonight.
     Why does it seem that sooner or later pastors who rant, rave and rail against this or that with enormous intensity seem to be fighting against their own internal struggles? Is it really neccessay to name names?
     Men yelling and screaming about porn, prostitue, and sissy men, usually have some issue with these themselves. It seems he is trying to prove what he is not.

     Methinks the man protests too much….I’m just saying.

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187. I have just heard about MD. (like your wife, I am lost in my world of kids, housework, and wifing “) I found MD on accident and listened to a few Youtube videos…. While I see the controversy, it was refreshing to hear a pastor say things I have often thought. At times I feel like strangling my own pastor for lack of conviction, and straightforwardness from the pulpit.

     I have not listened to a full MD sermon. Just snippets. I do agree however that I would NOT want my 11yod to hear some of these things but maybe my highschoolers.

     My husband on the other hand is very BLUE Collar and comes from a very rough BLUE Collar background with only “surface church teachings”. He is not “college educated”. (Perhaps most people on the blog are white collar and college educated. I don’t know why this makes a difference, but it does.) I know my husband can definitley relate to this sort of preaching. Maybe these are the people MD is trying to reach?

     Many Christians are afraid to speak their minds with the fear of “being judged”. And also I find many Parents DO NOT teach their children truths as they should. They leave that “stuff” to public schools. Isn’t this better learned at church if the parents won’t “step up”?

     My husband and I actually have an ongoing conversation about certain words we consider “foul”. He does not find some words to be “foul”.

     My thoughts seem disjointed and just thrown together, but Please don’t think I’m defending MD and not post this. I’m curious to hear if others with a similar background as my husband’s understand where I’m coming from.
     ———————————-
     As a side note. I did go back and read some more of the posts. All are very eye-opening. Guess I’ll just have to suffer with my boring, no-imagination, scared-to-stand-up-for-what-I-believe-in pastor. I was hoping I found a god-fearing man who “tells-it-like-it-is”.

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188. Heather,

     It would be well worth your while to call up all the other Driscoll posts on this site and take a serious look at the profuse documentation given here regarding Mark Driscoll. His language is the mere tip of the iceberg. He is a repeated and unrepentant Blasphemer and false teacher, and is VERY adept at mixing orthodox truth with the most demonic of errors. No matter how well he may “relate” to the Blue Collar worker, the Christian is commanded to avoid those such as Driscoll. If you are unsatisfied with your current pastor, there are other god-fearing men “who tell it like it is” featured on this site (check out the side bar on the right).

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189. Hello Heather! I am a busy, homeschooling mama, like you! I first heard of Mark Driscoll here, too! If you want no nonsense, biblical preaching…listen to sermons by Voddie Baucham: http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&Keyword=Voddie^Baucham

     and Paul Washer: http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&Keyword=Paul^Washer

     Just fantastic! :o)
     Kindly,
     Katy

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190. Heather,

     It might be beneficial to you and your husband to ponder the use of rough language in light of what is taught in this post: http://defendingcontending.com/2011/10/01/little-sins/

     May the Lord be your refuge and strength is all things.

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191. Heather,

     There are so many wonder Pastors in this country that tell it like it is and preach it straight. Regardless of your husbands background or comfort levels (or any of ours for that matter) the Gospel is what saves and the Gospel is what changes people. Love for Christ, which is found by being saturated with the Word of God, prayer, and good teaching will surpass any blue collar/white collar/college/no college backgrounds. Amazing men in the history of the Christian faith (Hudson Taylor, William Carey, CT Studd and hundreds of others) have gone into non-english speaking tribal and 3rd world countries preach the Word of God straight. These men didn’t have to speak in a certain way to reach the culture. They simply had to make the Gospel clear in their language and God does the work. The same is true in America today. We don’t need to contextualize to a rough crowd or a bunch of bikers or athletes or bankers or physicists. We need to give them the Gospel straight…which means we also need to attend churches that teach in this manner and not attend churches if they are afraid to preach truth.

     I am very interested to know what kind of church you do attend and maybe we can help you find a solid Christ exalting preacher in your town. We only have 2 churches in my metropolitan area of 500,000+ people, but we found them and we help others find them. Then take time listening to the good ones online for sure. We can recommend tons of great pastors such as:

     Look on http://www.sermonaudio.com, Itunes podcasts, and church websites for these as a sampling
     1. John Macarthur
     2. Brian Borgman – minden, NV
     3. Albert Mohler of Southern Seminary
     4. Russel Moore
     5. Voddie Baucham
     6. Paul Washer
     7. Jeff Noblit of Alabama
     8. Phil Johnson – grace to you
     9. John Piper (some on this blog would disagree with me here, but Piper’s sermons are a great resource)
     10. Robert Briggs – Sacramento
     11. Sam Waldron – Kentucky
     12. Richard Barcellos – Southern California – Mojave, I think
     13. Albert Martin & David Chanski – new jersey
     14. Mark Chanski – Holland, Michigan
     15. Joel Beeke – Grand Rapids (I think)
     16. Ligon Duncan – Jackson, MS
     17. Sinclair Ferguson – south carolina

     And the list goes on and on and on and on. We might not agree with every doctrinal position, but the preach the Gospel straight and direct and in a Christ Exalting way.

     I hope that this is of some help and I would love to help you find someone in your town if you are willing to name the city where you live. I can hopefully provide a couple worth trying. There is no time like to present to get the best teaching.

     Faithfully,
     -atg

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192. THANK YOU for posting the truth about Mark Driscoll. I was invited to a church here in Palm City, Florida, by the Pastor’s wife, so I went to their web-site to check their church out. I saw a list of ministers that they highly recommend. A.W. Tozer was one, along with Mark Driscoll, and many, many more. I had a check in my Spirit to do some homework on the many Preachers and authors, that they endorsed. I was especially checking to see if any of these men were involved in the Apostolic Reformation Movement, as I just left a church that was very much involved in this mess. I was SHOCKED at what some of these preachers stood for and preach/preached behind the pulpit, but even more shocked that this Pastor’s wife told me that her church “preaches the true gospel of Christ.” Oh yes, lest I forget…. I read on the site about their night for LINE DANCING, etc, also. I want NO PART of this so-called church. It is DEFINITELY a CULT!!! Thank you for enlightening me as to Mark Driscoll.

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193. While Mark Driscoll’s approach may not always appeal to me personally, I have first-hand knowledge of people who lived in the gutter of sin who have, by God’s grace, transitioned into godly people. It is important to note that the Seattle area is considered the least Christian in the entire nation. Furthermore, the Northwest has the highest concentration of young people due to technological growth. Those rescued from such a background are forever grateful for Driscoll’s outreach to them. Moreover, ironically, these same people who were rescued from a profane life are now active adherents of John MacArthur’s theology and attend one of his approved community churches in another State.

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194. Dennis Fischer,

     With all due respect, your assessment is pragmatic (looking at what one perceives to be successful results) rather than that which is Biblically sound. I have firsthand knowledge as well. One of my sisters was once a wonderful Christian lady, teaching the truths of God’s Word to many and lived in submission to it. Since attending Driscoll’s church for several years, she now uses God’s name blasphemously, is a drunkard, enjoys and tells foul jokes, enjoys the most degenerate movies, has married an unsaved man (who she got quick “saved” at Driscoll’s church to “legitimize” her marriage, yet who shows absolutely no fruit of true repentance), and is antagonistic to what she once held dear regarding God’s truth and righteousness. Yet continues to faithfully attend her Mars Hill Church, and weekly “community group”. And I’ve personally known several people who became “better” people (more moral, more “loving” and giving, more “religious”) after converting to Catholicism than they were before.

     Thus fruit, real fruit, is manifested not in mere “changed behavior” but in true regeneration. True fruit of regeneration includes behavior AND belief which is in harmony and accord with the whole of the Word of God.

     That Driscoll does not preach the Biblical Jesus has been documented from his own words profusely on this site. That he is a blasphemer and a teacher of false doctrine has also been documented. His own testimony in his own words reveal his faulty foundation, which he replicates to his followers.

     The fruit of the genuine born again believer is to be repelled by false teachers, and to be attracted to true, undefiled Biblical doctrine.

     As a side note: I’ve also lived in the Seattle area for many years. The idea that it is one of the “least Christian” areas in the country is nothing but misinformation, (which, not coincidently, is highly touted by Driscoll to bolster his “ministry” to the area). I’ve also lived in several metropolitan areas of southern and central California. And between Seattle and California, I’d have to say there is little to no difference in the amount of Christians I have found.

     I encourage you to test men like Driscoll according to the Scriptures, rather than be superficial observation.

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195. The bible says ‘whatever is good noble, pure, etc…think on these things’ Surely that applies to the kind of language you use and what you dwell on in sermons. Mark Driscoll misses the mark for a godly preacher.

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196. He has not long ago come to Sydney, Australia, where he was running some seminar on how to do evangelism. I was absolutely shocked to find out who he was. And all these straight down the line, conservative evangelicals were lapping up every word of his. I thought,what is going on!
     We should pray for Driscoll. That he would fall on his knees and repent and understand that God is holy. That His word is not to be mocked! God help him. I would hate to be in his position on the day of judgment. ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t I help all these people come into the kingdom, have and international ministry, etc. etc.’

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197. I am a young adult and have struggled myself in sexual sin and unholiness. I would agree with the writer, I have listened to Driscoll on a couple of occasions and I don’t find him very impressive and also offensive. I had him as my facebook friend and I had to delete him because his statuses caused a lot of controversy among christians in their comments. It’s sad for me to see that, because yes the Bible is offensive and controversial but when the community itself is divided and the pastor is the one causing it by bringing up statements and refusing to work through them, that’s not right.

     In regard to this blog post, Ephesians 5 came to my mind as I have been studying it due to my own sin.

     Therefore be imitators of God as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.

     Continue to read that whole chapter asking the Spirit to speak truth no matter what any other man says outside of Paul.

     I don’t mind pastors and teachers, but when the christian community starts to idolize them and stops using their own brain which God gave them, then I have a problem. Pastors and teachers are good, but we have misused their gifts and the church itself will decay because of it.

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198. I had never heard of Mark Driscoll until yesterday when I saw his book “Real Marriage” listed on Amazon.com. Since he claims to be giving Christian advice on marriage, I did some online research and came across this post and many others shedding light on MD’s strange theology. I am shocked at the things he’s preached from the pulpit. But I am more shocked that people make excuses for him. I can’t imagine listening to a “preacher” who swears and says disrespectful things about the sacred and demeans women. I will not be listening to his “sermons” or reading his books. Thank you Pilgrim for your honest review!

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199. Submitted by DHM on Feb 1, 2012. *new
     I am a former Pastor, son of a Pastor, and Grandson of a Pastor in the Church of Christ, a church which subscribes to many of the Misogynistic practices enjoyed by the “men” of Mars Hill.They also practiced the art of destroying people in their congregations who don’t submit to the absolute authority of the church Elders and perform the public rituals of humiliation which serve to enhance the power the elders have over the lives of other people. The “works” based religiosity practiced by Mark Driscoll and his followers is not original and follows a trend started by weak men centuries ago who need control…control over women, and control over the people around them. I take a personal interest in watching Mr. Driscoll’s progression in his personal dynasty because I have seen the damage his cult has done to one family very close to me. His message to one young woman in my family was to drop out of nursing school and care for her home and have children. Though she completed school at the urging of her mother, she has chosen to pursue the Mars Hill ideal of having lots of children, not working and forcing her husband to be a “leader” and go make enough money to support the brood without her income. We dont live in that culture anymore where one income can support large families. Mr. Driscoll has yet to explain how this part is supposed to work. He will certainly have an answer to all this and the other critiques of his cult. He always does. Mr. Driscoll also has a group of cult followers who are assigned to go on-line and respond to posts about his cult in very scripted answers. The extent of his organizational response is frightening. As a former theologian, and still a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I see the Driscoll cult for what is is…”The People of the Lie”.. The majority of the members are certainly, well-intentioned Christians, but the leadership are representatives of a power we are to fear. Dont’ underestimate his power to harm and destroy families. Jim Jones, David Koresh and many others before them were dismissed as freaks and not addressed until it was too late for their cult followers. Mark Driscoll is not a man of God and does not represent Christianity.

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200. If I may, I would like to add a comment that initially may be considered support of Driscoll but is neither intended to support or trash Mark Driscoll. I read quite a few of the comments and I was rather surprised. It is clear to the reader that many folks take issue with the way he chooses to preach. It is VERY candid and yes, at times inappropriate. I would though urge all the readers to think carefully and consider all view points. I am not a driscollite and I do not wish to lavish my praise and support on him via this blog, but I would ask that I be given a spot to a make a couple points that I believe help center us on the issue. Mark is vulgar at times, no question. One thing to consider is his church and where its located. Many of us don’t fully comprehend what its like to live in a state that is predominately occupied by non-Christians. Moral folks and believers make up the majority of our population in many parts of the U.S. For him and his church, porn is a huge thing. It would be shocking if we knew how many people in churches today watch porn at home. Those of us who have avoided it don’t really understand the power it holds over the mind when it has been given in to time and time again. For many people, traditional sermons don’t move us to action. In a culture that is dominated by sex, drugs, and the free expression of oneself, I believe that an in-your-face-approach to sin is sometimes necessary to wake people up to the seriousness of sin. At no time in our culture has the church been more caught up in the world, and more willing to flirt with sin.The second thing that I think balanced thinkers should consider is that even Paul recognized when someone spoke truth. A pagan made statements that were truthful and related to what Paul was teaching and he acknowledged it. Truth is truth and there are not multiple versions of it. We don’t condone or endorse the pagan lifestyle but when someone from that walk of life states truth as we know it according to scripture, we are to acknowledge it, because it brings glory to God. He allowed someone to speak His truth even though they were known as pagan. In conclusion, I hope the moderator will allow this comment because I want to help us think a little deeper not go on and on about Mark Driscoll like a candidate for president. Am I suggesting that you listen to him all the time? No. What I am suggesting is that Mark stands wholeheartedly on the gospel and preaches it without shame and without excuse. Rather than vehemently disregard him and trash his name, allow that our sovereign God may be using Driscoll to reach folks that those of us in a more traditional church setting could not. The beauty of radio and TV is that we have the power to turn it off. I understand that some folks would not benefit from Driscoll but I imagine there are thousands of folks in his churches every week that otherwise wouldn’t be if his church was like ours. I don’t suggest that anything and everything should go within the church, but I do say that each church needs to blend carefully with the area its in if it is to be effective. Thanks for reading, and to the moderator, please see this as an alternative thought to the issue rather than a sweeping endorsement and allow my comment to remain posted. Thanks.

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201. With all respect, this is rather a pathetic response to the criticism. So are we to drop the standard of the pulpit reflecting a high standard of purity and holiness? I don’t think so! And I don’t think Paul would have advocated it. And guess what ? Many people operate in the ‘old fashioned’ way of no compromise, and it works-yes even today. The gospel does not succumb to the culture of the day and flirt with its impurity. It rises above the culture and sets the standard. It asserts the values of a Holy God. ‘Woe is me, for I am a sinful man, and I dwell among a people of unclean hearts and lips’ says the prophet Isaiah. At the end of the day Driscolls church is just a reflection of how far we have fallen as the church. we need true revival!

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202. Iz,
     You say

     “The gospel does not succumb to the culture of the day and flirt with its impurity. It rises above the culture and sets the standard. It asserts the values of a Holy God.”

     Well said! it seems man’s wisdom is the ‘theme of the day’ as we reach the culture in new and relevant ways by tweaking the word of God so as to tickle the ear; such a preacher cares nothing for the souls of men. You can do this and fill your church pews, but woe to the man who desires to please man rather than fall on his face before a Holy God and tremble at His word.

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203. Clearly, my intentions here and my entire thought were not fully understood. I do not condone the mixing of church with culture just to bring folks in. The emergent movement is wrong in that respect. It cannot be about getting folks in. With that idea running the playbook, millions of dollars are wasted on culture mimicking schemes such as starbucks, comfy seats, and secular bands. What I am suggesting is that as Christians, its easy to come to church, do our good Christian duty, leave, and live life like we had when we walked in. Occasionally we run into a good sermon and it moves us to action for awhile, but complacency usually wins. I know this is true in my life and true for many Christians in the church today. Our fatih doesn’t cost us enough. Sometimes, a sermon that is uncomfortable and confrontational helps to light the fire under our seats. I do believe that Mark Driscoll goes to far and as I said, I am not trying to defend him. I am simply suggesting that in the midst of all of our holy disdain for him, we stop and consider that he is unsahamedly a minister of Christ, and that he is reaching souls for the kingdom. While we don’t choose his sermons, or download his mp3’s, we can remember what the ultimate goal is: reaching others and discipling them in the name of Chirst so they can in turn reach others. If Mark has chosen a wrong approach to preaching, he alone will stand before God one day to answer for it. Each of us, will also answer for our lives. Lets us take heed and remember that we aren’t any better. Christ is the core. Not pulpits, buildings, seats, or sanctuary’s. I would tell you that according to what i have heard, there is a deep and reverent fear/respect for God in his preaching. He may be considered more relevant, but he doesn’t wimp out when it comes to stating the gospel and our need of Christ. If my research was done well, i belive there was a time when Mark admitedly had a problem with too much culture in his sermons. He has since repented and I belive has made genuine change. His sermons still vary compared to the ones I have heard my whole life, but they don’t waver on the gospel. As we consider the Bible and how it bears on Marks preaching, we should also consider that Christ promised his word wouldn’t return void. That means that no translational error or possible mis-guided preacher will stand in the way of the word. It will accomplish that which it was sent to do. Lastly, lets us also consider our own attitude. Do we disagree with Marks style? Yes, in many cases very much. Does Mark defend the gosepel? Most certainly. What we should do rather than blast him for his style, is one, recognize the core of his message, two, agree to disagree with his style, and three, pray for and love him as we should, knowing that Christ uses all types of men and women to reach the lost. If Mark showed disdain for the scripture, or didn’t preach the gosepl accurately, we would have an eniterly differnt conversation. At the end of the day, Christ will deal with Mark. Lets be sure we aren’t ignoring some potentially misplaced anger in our hearts towards a minister of the gospel.

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204. I would not go so far as to say Mark Driscoll is a minister of the Gospel; he appears to be so on the surface. BUT, he is unmasked when you dig deeper. This man is too sensual in his deliverance of certain subjects that do not need to be expounded in the gathering of believers where young children are present. If you go to the right of this page under ‘blogs-discernment’ you will find a link ‘driscoll controversy’ which reveals some of his sensual ways. For example,
     from this blog you will find—
     “In Confessions of a Reformission Rev: Hard Lessons from an Emerging Missional Church (2006) Mark Driscoll wrote, ‘Our church was still nearly all college students and singles, with a few young married couples and families with small children mixed in. I assumed the students and singles were all pretty horny, so I went out on a limb and preached through the Song of Solomon in the fall. I printed up a nice lengthy introduction to the book, with a lot of information about sex and marriage… Each week, I extolled the virtues of marriage, foreplay, oral sex, sacred stripping and sex outdoors, just as the book teaches, because all Scripture is indeed profitable. I was frank but not crass and did not back away from any of the tough issues regarding sex and pleasure. This helped us a lot because apparently a pastor using words like “penis” and “oral sex” is unusual; and before you could say “aluminum pole in the bedroom”, attendance began to climb steadily to more than two hundred people a week.’ (pp94, 96) Driscoll’s fame has been achieved largely through his explicit sexual messages from the pulpit, based on his interpretation of the Song of Solomon, which he handles as a sex manual for married couples.

     Driscoll writes about the occasional R-rated movie at church: ‘Pastor James continues to lead our monthly film and theology class, at which attendance rises to more than two hundred people depending on the film. He continues to show an occasional unedited R-rated movie to train our people to think critically about the themes preached through film, which is the new cultural form of preaching.’ (Confessions, p.157) – from http://www.driscollcontroversy.com/?page_id=42

     A ‘new cultural form of preaching’? Hmmmmm. Now does that sound like a spirit-filled man of God who trembles at His word? Driscoll’s attempt at being ‘cool and relevant’ is sickening, he is no preacher of the word of God but is instead a sinner in need of grace and mercy, may God truly save him.

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205. II don’t think we are merely talking about ‘style’ here. Words are powerful. they reflect character and substance There is something deeper going on here that people are rightly disturbed about. And it’s not just about Mark Driscoll. At the end of the day God will deal with Driscoll and He has
     the power to change him, as He does with all of us. Let’s not forget the position he holds. As someone put it-‘I salute the uniform, not the man’. Christians today think its okay to go and watch a film that has people fornicating just to ‘be educated’, so of course, they are not going to blink when a preacher comes along cussing and making light of what is Holy. At the end of the day he is making converts-right? really? Isn’t there something in scripture about crossing land and sea to make one disciple and making him twice the son of hell? does the end justify the means?
     Judgement is closing the door on someone, which is God’s domain. Discernment is saying something is right or wrong, good or bad. Which is what people are doing.

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206. Having not heard all of his sermons on sex, I would say that yes, he probably should give more consideration to the crowd that he preaches too. In none of my comments have I suggested that He is my preacher and that he is right on. He is a man like us, and makes mistakes like us. According to scripture, Mark, as a pastor, will answer for his life and how he lead his flock. Do I think that God may have something to say about some of his methods, yes. What I would like to address initially is the last part of unworthy1’s comment in which you said one day God may truly save him and he is no minister of the gospel. I must disagree. I am again, not Mark’s fan and not here to hold up his reputation, but He does preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is salvation by grace through fatih alone, plus nothing. That qualifies him to hold the title, minister of the gospel. Second, none of us can pronounce judgement on wether or not a person is saved. That is for God to decide. There are certain fruits that can give us clues, but none of us can really know. I began replying to this post becuase it seems as thought there is some very ungly feelings towards Mark. I am not trying to convince you to like him or download his sermons, but inadvertantly accusing him of sinsiter motives and saying he isn’t a minister of the gospel is profoundly wrong. Truth be told, we should be more willing to discuss sex openly in the church. I would say that in the right setting with adults only is the right answer, but maybe we should be more open about what a Godly sexual relationship looks like. If we married folks new more about what God considers holy in the bedroom, it might reduce the number of affairs and the draw of pornography. The sexual drive is immensely powerful and when it isn’t controlled and or satisfied, it finds a way and leads to other avenues. If men treated their wives like they should, and women in return, maybe the sex would be more exciting, last longer, and occur more frequently. Again, Mark has chosen a very candid and maybe at times inappropriate method to share his views, but it doesn’t make them sinful and we absolotuely cannot judge his salvation on that. I would say that the movie thing is wrong, and I don’t condone it, but you cannot judge the entire ministry on that. When I was a teenager, there was group of ladies that met weekly. They were the “womens minsitry commitee”, but if you were to listen as a fly on the wall, you would have been disgusted by the gossip and outright wrong conversation that went on in these meetings. For a person to say the entire ministry was sinful and corrupt wouldn’t be fair because the pastor handled the word accurately. The same can be said for Mars Hill. I urge the readers, again, be careful how you judge becuase the scruiptures tell us that we will be judged my the same measure with which he judges.

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207. Iz,
     I chose to begin responding becuase I felt that although people were not in agreement with Driscoll that some of the comments went too far. Judgements were made and conclusions were drawn based on his candid nature about sex. I am not a fan of his per say, but I don’t think you can ignore the number of people that have heard the gospel from his mouth. His church is ministering to thousands of people weekly and remaining steadfast on the gosepl. The gospel is Christ paying our penalty for sin and offering it to us freely. Salvation by faith, through grace, plus nothing. We don’t need to embrace or endorse his choices about how to deal with sex from the pulpit, but condemning him and his entire ministry becuase we disagree on his method of teaching sex, is wrong. Don’t support him, don’t download his material, but at least acknowledge that he is dead on when it comes to Jesus Christ and that he handles the gospel in a steadfast manner.

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208. I don’t think you are hearing, but God bless you anyway!

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209. Thanks for the good wishes. The same too you. If I may, before we part ways, add that we should always be diligent to seperate the good from the bad. Satan works in mysterious ways to mislead and misguide humans. What we need to be careful of is not assigning demonic quality to those we disagree with. The parts of scripture that deal with wolves in sheeps clothing are quite clear. Mark isn’t suggesting that he is the only voice on the matter. He simply states his ideas based on his study of scripture. Each pastor is going to see things a bit differently, and at times allow their preferences to interperet the bible. Mark preaches Christ. If his talk and candid nature make you uncomfortable, don’t listen, but don’t assume that he has an ulterior motive and that he should be shunned from the Chrsitian community. I too wish you well and maybe one day, we’ll meet in heaven. Blessings!

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210. Hi, Rick. This isn’t just a matter of taste or comfort. Mark Driscoll says sinful things, he does it publicly, and claims it is from God. I preach the Gospel of Christ, too. I wouldn’t expect anyone to give me a pass on sinful actions or words because of that, nor would I expect people to just ignore the problems.

     What Mark does should be shunned. His antics sully the name of Christ.

     I’m not going to tell you he’s unsaved. I don’t have a clue. I’m not going to tell you that he preaches a false gospel — in general, I don’t think he does. I’m sure God is using him. I’m glad of that. That doesn’t mean he gets my endorsement or approval, or that I would have anything to do with him.

     There comes a point when a man has to be rejected even if he gets the Gospel right, because he is doing other things that undermine it. I Timothy 5:20 does not apply only to those who are wrong on the Gospel. Neither does Titus 3:10. And Mark Driscoll is divisive.

     And by the way, I serve in a far more godless place than Seattle, and where porn has an even greater hold.

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211. Well, that’s interesting. This is in Scotland, correct?

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212. Yes, I’m in Scotland. Very few churches preach anything but a weak moralism here. I only mentioned it because Rick seemed to excuse and/or minimise some of Driscoll’s antics by the society he lives in.

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213. Rick Glover,

     I would encourage you to investigate Mark Driscoll a little closer, it seems he is into promoting word/faith preachers, which is very telling. We must remember, just because someone seems to be able to talk the talk, it doesn’t mean they are walking the walk.

     Here is a link I recommend to you…http://www.donotbesurprised.com/2012/05/mark-driscoll-promoting-word-faith.html

     It is no surprise that Driscoll would warm up to word/faith preachers, he himself claims to have had visions, as you can read here…http://www.teampyro.org/2011/08/pornographic-divination.html

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214. Hi Pilgrim,

     I am sorry to read that a pastor of a Christian church should stoop so low as to use vulgar language of a Christian radio progam that you are your wife had found previously trustworthy. No person, and especially not women and young children, should hear vulgarities coming from a Christian pastor.

     I am surprised that his church elders have not asked him to take leave of absence and seek the heart of God about where he is at. He needs to look at how Jesus treated women and children with dignity, compassion and kindness.

     His actions are clearly sinful in that they fail to respect others created in the image and likeness of God in the way Jesus treated others. Jesus never used vulgar language. His heart reflected the heart of God as compasionate, tender and true. Love does no wrong to its neighbour. Surely, the use of vulgar language is mistreating others.

     God’s infinite love is a holy love and his holiness is a compassionate holiness. God is opposed to sin in all its forms. Sin grieves the heart of God. Pastor Driscoll needs to seek God’s forgiveness and be restored to fellowship with his Saviour. I understand that he is still using such vulgar language today. (Please note that I am not saying that “he is not a Christian”)

     When we have a heart of gratitude to God for his wonderful generosity in the gift of the One who is nearest and dearest to his heart , the One who gave his life a ransom for our sin, how can we sin that grace may abound? Never!

     I believe that you did the only honourable thing and removed this radio station from your website after it refused to admit that it was mistaken to have pastor Driscoll on its program. My prayer for Pastor Driscoll is this: That God would grant him to use words that are seasoned with salt, words that add flavour and show forth God’s fair beauty. My prayer is that he be full of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the lowly Nazarene, crucified for us and risen from the grave, triumphant over sin and death whom God has made a Prince and a Saviour. May Pastor Driscoll be full of the friut of the Spirit.

     Shalom,
     John Arthur

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215. To the author,

     Well done for keeping your children from bad language.

     Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the peacemakers. Perhaps try typing in http://www.discipleshiplibrary.com and typing in Donald Barnhouse, Peace makers for Christ. Try listening to this.
     Be holy because I am holy. You are Holy in his sight without fault and free from accusation if you continue in your faith.

     Peace,

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216. It is an indictment against me that I didn’t twig faster to MD’s over-emphasis on being crass and cool, and bringing the solemn responsibility of teaching the word into disrepute. Reading Spurgeon’s “lectures to my students”, a casual observer would wonder if Spurgeon worshipped the same God as MD, the way they approach their vocation in the pulpit.

     One of the elders at our church (a place that is otherwise very solid theologically) is a Driscollite, and has gradually brought into our church services the tone of disrespect, and the sense of coolness being all important that seems to be a MD speciality. It’s insidious, and saddening that things can so thoroughly go off the rails.

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217. Bruce, “Lectures to My Students” by Spurgeon is a great book and IMHO should be REQUIRED reading for all men desiring to enter the ministry in any aspect!

     Further, had Mark Driscoll bothered to read it, he would realize that he is NOT qualified to be a shepherd.

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218. Don’t be such a pussy! Hes a real man speaking real truths……. Your dumb wife wasnt smart enough to turn the radio off……really? The sermon wasn’t meant for your lil girl who I can guarantee has heard worse things in school. Dont be a hater, He is helping a lot of people know the truth, not some watered down version. My suggestio. Grow some healthy christisn Balls and tell your wife to change the ststion when she hears something that her kids shouldn’t be listening to……..your the reason our men are so weak these days…….oh, I think I’ll just go hate on somebody today cause I’m online looking at porn anywsys might as well cry……

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219. Pherson Turner: Thank you for demonstrating to everyone the fruit of Driscoll’s influence. I see absolutely NOTHING in your tirade that remotely resembles any Biblical truth, nor an attitude consistent with that of Jesus, nor love for anyone whatsoever. Only hatred for those who expose him for his evil deeds. Wise up friend.

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220. I agree with RS, what a hideous response! very offensive indeed, but as you stated RS, such is the fruit of one who follows a potty-mouthed immature sensual preacher.

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221. Pherson Turner, out of the mouth proceedeth the contents of the heart and you have left no doubt in my mind that you know not the Lord Jesus Christ . . . and yes, we are to judge . . . that is the only way that we can discern what is good and what is evil. Your filthy rant exposes you.

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222. Pherson Turner – Do you really believe that you are born again?

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223. I disagree with you guys. I think that it is imperative that sex be discussed in a Christlike envornment with children. At our youth group, we had a discussion/confession time with many young kids about porn and lust. I confessed that I had struggled with porn a while back. Pretty much everyone regardless of age was struggling with porn. Most kids start at age 7-10, and because no one talks with them about it really, they keep it secret. Parents assume kids don’t deal with such things, but they’re wrong. Mark Driscoll’s awesome for talking about the sin that just about every kid can relate to, or if in the off-chance that they don’t, that they will come to understand better because at some point whither they like it or not they will be exposed to porn.

     Mark Driscoll is speaking about Christ and the sin of sex in a way that is groundbreaking but essential to our generation today.

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224. You said

     “I think that it is imperative that sex be discussed in a Christlike envornment with children. At our youth group, we had a discussion/confession time with many young kids about porn and lust.”

     Isn’t it the parents job to talk to their children about sex? Do I want to trust such a sensitive and important topic to a ‘youth group’ or a pastor? I think not, that is MY responsibility, not the church’s. How dare you think you can take the place and responsibility of what should fall on the parents!!

     There are NO passages in scripture that support preaching on sex, none of the Apostles or our Lord preached on sex. What makes you and Driscoll think it is your responsibility? You both are stepping in where you need not go; if someone has questions concerning sex, it should be discussed in a private session with the pastor, not proclaimed from the pulpit to a gathering of believers who are there to worship God in a family setting. It is wrong to speak about this sensitive topic in front of children publicly and there is no scriptural support for it…period.

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225. @Charles Burton – Evidently you haven’t listened to or read much of Drisicoll’s sermons and books. It is one thing to address the subject of lust or unlawful sexual thought and behavior according to what the Scriptures say should questions arise. And as unworthy 1 rightly said, that should be in a more private setting with the pastor for the purpose of gaining a right biblical understanding. Driscoll on the other hand has a prurient interest in sex that, based upon his many sexual jokes, masturbation jokes, porn jokes, etc. FROM THE PULPIT as well as in his books, most of it for the purpose of getting laughs (which you can hear coming from his audience on his sermon tapes), testifies that he has a perverted, unholy, lascivious bent which serves not to train up a flock unto righteousness, but to destroy their consciences.

     And if you honestly think Driscoll preaches Christ, it is also evident that you haven’t kept up on the character or personality of the “christ” he preaches. Because Driscoll does not preach the Jesus Christ of the Scriptures.

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226. I originally joined this conversation to simply bring some balance. I was not going to be in the tank for Driscoll, nor was I going to spew hatful, angry, and misplaced accusations at him. Many of these folks posting on here need to step back and ask whats happening in my heart. You may not agree with how he appoaches the topics of sex, and i can’t say that I do on each and every point but some it is worthwhile. Maybe, if we didn’t squash the topic of sex, and got honest with ourselves, fewer Christians would be fighting it, and the world might see dedicated followers instead of hyproctical talkers. Sex is huge. Its the one sin bringing the American church to its knees. Married couples don’t understand its value and purpose, young people download porn on the internet, Godly men visit the bookstore to buy it, and no one wants to speak about it! C’mon folks, its time to fight. Its time to call it out of the dark and slay the dragon of lust and porn. It can’t exist except in the shadows. While you may not agree with Driscoll, be careful that you don’t sin by slandering and defaming his name or worse yet, calling him a heretic. He preaches the Gospel in its entirety and unashamedly. The hatred and poison in some of these posts is damnable. Let him who has no sin cast the first stone…..

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227. Is Driscoll qualified to be an elder according to Scripture? Just because he has the ”lingo” down doesn’t mean this man is godly. Have you even heard some of the things that come out of his mouth? Did you read this post – http://thechristianworldview.com/tcwblog/archives/1640?

     Here is a sample of a Driscoll sermon…”‘We’ll start at the book of Genesis, the book of beginnings, where all things begin including good comedy. The book starts with a guy marrying his sister, which is really funny unless you’re from Kentucky and then it’s too close to home. And then it moves along and God floods the earth and kills everyone except for a family headed by a man name Noah. They climb into an ark and upon exiting the ark in Genesis 9, there’s this really funny little story. Noah gets drunk and passes out naked in his tent. I mean the whole book is a redneck hillbilly saga par excellence. It’s like all of Genesis takes place in a trailer park… the whole book is filled with redneck comedy. And Noah gets drunk and passes out naked in his tent like a hillbilly redneck on vacation and when I see it, I see a guy with blue tarbs, a guy in a swim trunks and cowboys boots, drunk on moon shine with a John Deer cap, sitting around playing Texas-Hold ‘em with his uncle daddy, eating hot pockets. That’s how I see it. It’s kind of funny that after God kills everyone the one “righteous” guy passes out naked in his tent.’- from http://www.driscollcontroversy.com/?page_id=57

     You call that Godly preaching? You think this man is qualified to be in a pulpit? Here are some ‘Driscoll quotes’ for you to mull over…
     “The Bible could end right there [in Genesis], after only two chapters, with the man and woman naked, eating fruit, and trying to fill the earth all by their happy, horny, holy selves.” (Radical Reformission, p.28)

     “And to top it all off, God comes to earth. He has a mom whom everyone thinks is a slut, a dad whom they think has the brilliance of a five-watt bulb for believing the ‘virgin birth’ line, and brothers who likely pummel him frequently, because even God would have to get at least one wedgie from his brothers if he were to be fully human.” (Radical Reformission, p.29)]

     From Driscoll’s Book: “Vintage Jesus” (first printed 2008)-Driscoll’s thoughts about Mary, the mother of Jesus: “Jesus’ mom was a poor, unwed teenage girl who was mocked for claiming she conceived via the Holy Spirit. Most people thought she concocted a crazy story to cover the ‘fact’ she was knocking boots with some guy in the backseat of a car at the prom.” (p.11)
     There’s more at http://www.mbla.org/Driscoll_Quotes.htm

     Are you sure you want to defend this man? There is no slander going on here, this man should be removed from any pulpit; he bears no evidence of genuine fruit. Our Lord tells us we will know them by their fruit. Rather than defend him, cry out to God for this man’s soul.

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228. To Rick Glover and all who are defending Mark Driscoll in his SIN.

     When Jesus set me free from my sins, one of the most freest truths and realities was that I no longer was imprisoned by Sex plaguing me. It’ the most joyful satisfying highest virtue. The highest value and worth in your life is fully met when the Lord fills you up with His love. His love is subliminal beyond the temporary physical pleasures of sex. There’s this serenity of being filled with wonder like a little child and that innocence that is so refreshing and NEW.

     To focus on sex especially in a Christian marriage is devastating to say the least. Yes God created sex to be within marriage and we are to enjoy as God blesses the marriage bed. But this is not where are focus is to be. The more sexual I’ve been the more I’ve always been less content and happy simply because pleasure does NOT equal happiness. I’ve also become more lonely since it doesn’t satisfy the spiritual aspects of my life with Christ and with others. It takes my thoughts and focus off of Christ and more on myself to satisfy. it’s lust.

     All Mark Driscoll is doing is imprisoning Christian people back to being slaves to sin just like Balaam did through puerile. AS one person said “He is raping the bible” but I will add to this statement that he is raping Christians and Christianity…

     This is a SPIRITUAL problem not a sexual problem and Driscoll needs to get out of the pulpit.. The tacit approval and uncouth behavior of the type of filth that consistently spews forth from Mark Driscoll is shameful and ought not to be. He has no respect for the Bride of Christ but has sullened HER..When you LOVE your WIFE you do NOT bring opprobrium

     Our faith must not rest on man’s wisdom, man’s efforts, man’s outer shows— faith should rest solely on God’s power-dunamus-Eph.1:19- with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power. The Holy Spirit does not act inconsistently to what He’s said in Scripture. If we are uncertain and not very knowledgeable of Scripture, we should be docile because of our changed heart that is meek-Matthew 5:5 since we surrendered to please the Lord Jesus and ask a Christian brother or sister who knows Scripture to show us from Scripture the truth whom we can trust.

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229. @Rick – The mountain of documentation that has been given on this, and other sites, testifying from Driscoll’s own mouth and pen of his gross sins against the Holy God and His Word are not false accusations. They are real facts. You need to read them, because it is impossible to reiterate them all in this combox. Driscoll has, according to his own account, become a pastor because he “heard God” tell him to do so. Then he took it upon himself to start a church, teaching the Bible which he claims he didn’t even understand. That alone renders him, according to Scripture, unqualifed, since he wasn’t even an elder in the faith when he began pastoring others. But he never submitted to God’s Word to leave the office of pastor that he so wrongly violated in his error. He remains unqualified, since he never displayed, nor has he yet displayed, true Biblical fruit of repentance. The things which spew out of his mouth and pen continue to testify of his unregenerate state. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t intellectually understand orthodox doctrine, which he often preaches. But his perverse personal beliefs which he often mixes in with such orthodoxy reveals his continued unregenerate heart. And there has been an abundance of perverse, fleshly, lascivious jokes and ungodly references spewing from his mouth over the course of his entire ministry. Driscoll has so perverted the Scriptures in numerous places, that he makes God Himself the purveyor of the grossest perversities (look up his sermon to the Scots sometime in which he violently distorts the Song of Songs to teach that God prescribes oral sex, as well as reading a lot of other sexual innuendo into the book that simply isn’t there).

     The “Jesus” Driscoll preaches has a character and personality which is in violent contradiction to the Jesus Christ we all read of in the Scriptures. Thus he preaches “another Jesus” as Paul warns about, and which the Christian is commanded to reject. In preaching another Jesus, Driscoll is certainly not preaching the Gospel of the Scirptures, since Driscoll’s sinful, worldly, ungodly “jesus” cannot save anyone.

     As I said, there is so much that has been documented, that it is beyond the capacity of this combox to reiterate. But based upon the profusion of direct evidence, one is forced to conclude that Driscoll is not a true preacher of the Gospel, nor a follower of the Jesus Christ of the Scriptures, nor a born-again individual. It is my urgent prayer that he repents, and that he be saved. Because as it currently stands, he is doing immense damage to the name of Christ in the world, and the Gospel.

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230. To Charles Burton and Rick Glover: You are defending the indefensible. To argue that because MD might have some good things to say or that he is doctrinally correct is akin to eating a meal laced with shards of glass while insisting that the food itself is actually quite delicious and nutritious. My eyes bleed (figuratively, of course) when I read just a few excerpts from his books and sermons; I honestly can’t get through anymore for all of his blasphemy to determine whether the “substance” is worthwhile. Do you understand the meaning of blasphemy? As defined by the dictionary it is to treat irreverently or lightly that which is sacred. The definition of profane is simply that which is secular and MD seems to relish opportunities to mix the profane and the holy. And don’t even get me started on his so-called ability to “divine” the sins of others.

     Rick, the church is not called to “slay the dragon” of pornography. We are to be salt and light, leading others to the saving knowledge of Christ. We are also, however, to be on guard for the hirelings who would lead the sheep astray.

     The author of lies is able to quote scripture but we are to flee from him for he is like a roaring lion seeking to devour.

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231. hey ive been expiriencing some really wierd things in the spirit and stuff and im tring to find out if im just wasting m time. cuz i dont want to be a false prophet (i hate saying prophetess because i first heard that word used in connection to witchcraft and debra was called a prophet if i remember correctly).

     basically, ive walked in and out of faith my whole life. here lately i seem to get closer to god, and then all sorts of strange things and manifestations happen. used to pray for visions and dreams and miraculus things, but know they are happening and i cant even tell god from the devil.

     i knowin the bible it says his sheep will know his voice. i also knows it says that those who no christ and have been indwelt with the holy spirit and stuffcant be reinstated because its recrucifying christ. i come from fornication, witchcraft, idolatry, generational curses, homosexuality, and dvorce.

     is it a waste of time for me to tryh to seek god since ive always swung back and forth. i am in dwelt with the holy spirit and deoms flee before me when i walk with god. but im constantly losing and falling awy and getting mad at god and im violent, i discoveredthis after some spirit convinced me to marry my now ex husband and learn to love him eventhough i never had respect fr him. idk before i believed it was god, now im hearing it never counted cuz he wasmarried before me. and that ican marry someone else. but then that means i wasted 2 years on a fools errand.

     iguess i want answers. am i beyond hope. cuz if i am im done trying to find whats hiding from me.

     idk i know ive expirience godbefore and thr holy spiritbut have i turned too far awayto come back. i hate thinking aboujt heaven and hell and yea

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232. No Cassie, you’re not beyond hope!! I realize you have difficulties on many fronts, but if you could pinpoint at least one or two, I’m know there are many people here ready and willing to share their godly wisdom!
     Praying for you until that time!

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233. Cassie JESUS is our hope… I understand what you are saying when you can’t tell the voice of God from Satan… I’ve been there before and it’s a VERY scary place to be…

     My advice would be to read the BIBLE and STOP listening to all these other teachers and preachers. It sounds like from what I’ve read you have been taught some things that are not biblical and all this is causing you to be confused.. -“For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”-1 Cor.14:33.

     BEGIN memorizing God’s word… ask God to show you the truth and believe the TRUTH of what God’s word says

     We are to examine ourselves from time to time to see if we are in the faith… That includes ALL of us no matter how many years we’ve been saved… 2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?–Is Jesus Christ IN YOU? Do you have evidence that God has given you His Son?

     Rom 8:15 “For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

     I will be praying for you cassie and I’m so glad you shared with us what you are going through. I would not wish anyone to go at this alone..

     Cassie, Very importantly may I refer you to the Sola Sisters and talk with Christine Pack. They will talk to you and help you since they have been through much of what you are describing…

     Their website is http://solasisters.blogspot.com/

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234. rev limiter, i feel like obviously not right away, but eventually, im supposed to teach the word of god. well, im a woman. so that cant be right. i also see the holy spirit around some people and darkness around others. even wiccans i see the holy spirit around some. i thought it was because god is dealing with them in ways we cant see, cuz ive seen people fight it in church and as it grows stronger the become overcome crying, sometimes going up for prayer. ive seen someone speak the holy spirit but it was really dim around that person himself. like the message was right but he was wrong. i know a lot of christian-wiccans, christo-pagans, hoo doo practicioners (christian mysticism) christian-buddhists, my dads muslim, and i even now two self ascribed christia.n-satanists.

     i believe god told me all branches of christianity are his, including catholisism. cuz i used to believe catholics were a cult, but god told me hes calling for unity in the church and doctrinal differences are division are demonc strongholdsbut we are all his. thats when he started showing me where paganism have infiltrated protestant churches. let me rephrase that, mormon faith, bastardised faiths like those i mentioned earlier, and jehovah’s witnesses, and seventh day adventists are false christianity.
     but the thing is all my witch friends say they feel the most at home in a catholic church. i just wrote it off as the matrileanial influence since the all are part of matriarchal religions.

     one night me and my guy friend were praying for strength and he had a vision. i told 3 christian friends and one says it was a vision from got about describing problems to be delt with when we get married( we are not engaged, im engaged to someone else but thinking about breaking it and going back to my husband, if i can get a clear answer on whether or not that marriage even vounted in gods eyes cuz he was married before. i used to believe courthouse marriages didnt count so he lied and said it was in front of a judge, come to find out it was a minister who married them. but ive been convicted recently that a promise is a promise no matter the location) and the other two said the vision was not from god and one said it was a clarvoyiant spirit.the thing is iin the middle of the vision i started praying for clarity and his vision was coming in clearer. butlike i said i know too many participants in bastardized religions that call on the name of jesus and things happen in the spirit. idont want to be one. but idk im feeling lostand confused. its like ill get random moments of shocking clarity and biblical understanding and start walking with purpose and then its like it disappears. im constantly wondering if im not unlike judas. jesus gave all the disciples including him the ability to heal the sick, drive out demons, and the command to spread the gospel. idk if i healed anyone but i know i have the gift for it. ive driven demons out. but so did he. and he hung himself and rejoined his father, the devil, that night. its like when i am strong in my faith demons flee before me but when im doubting everything up to whether or not im even salvageable, im the one fleeing. unless im commiting sins with them.

     i also stopped believing i even have hope in the afterlife two years ago when i came acrossed the warning against backsliding cuz theres no coming back in hebrews which is something discussed here on this site. ive gone back and forth in witchcraft and fornication and a number of other things. and its not always like “oops i forgot i dont do that anymore” type sins but living in it for months or years at a time. but itsays in the bible once you turn away from christ theres no coming back. it puts him on the cross and shames him.

     also most of what i believe comes from self exporation. i used to hang on what preachers say until i noticed that they were either deeply spiritual but ammoral or deeply biblical but dry and powerless.

     ————-

     I mean it puts him back on the cross and turning away from christ after knowing him once

     ————-

     i date my conversion back to christinity when i was 14. i dabbled in witchcrft for a couple months and turned my life back to god and was rebaptized. i didnt feel my first one counted bc i was 6. im 23 now

     i actually was also in the processed of being liscensed to preach at my old church. my pastor taught that youve got to preach the gospel even through your sins. i disgreed. i cheated on my husband a week before i was supposed to preach my initial sermon and backed down and refused to preach eventhough he wanted me to. eventhough he knew i cheated. i do a lot of bad things but i rarely lie to people (outside of my blood family)

     he also had me teach about demons and traps of the enemy. i felt that i shouldnt have. just touched on the subject but that people didnt need a blow by blow of it. i felt like i was damning the word of god. everyone wanted to hear that though, but they werent changing. just because i was pointing out the mysticism behind “christian” holidays and the witchcraft behind the music industry. it seemed to draw them in more. i mean, i was looked at wierd because i would stand up and correct people when theyd say thingss that limited the power of god and god’s people. my ex bf who was a christiansatanist believed he could rise people from the dead. but in a church who was in that buisiness first sits there and denies and philosiphies modern resurrection is horrible. its like, witches claim more pwer than god’s people. and the people of god who do claim power follow a mixed religion and talk to ghosts. but if i was really empowered by more than showy tricks, why cant i change. i see gods power at work all the time in other people and through me for them, but im judas. im outside of it

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235. Cassie – Just a suggestion: if you want anyone to read your posts, used mixed caps. By that I mean – use capital letters and also use proper punctuation, such as apostrophes for possessives. Shorter posts wouldn’t hurt.

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236. Manfred,
     Just a suggestion; take into consideration that i typed these posts under emotional duress. Also I would leave the cannotation about me being undeucated out. If you want to nit pick, nit pick someone who is unable to read through the lines. Also, you used a colon improperly. that should be a semi colon.

     I missed an “I” in that post, too. lol

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237. cassie: There seems to be an issue going on here that I will not discuss with you publicly. It deals with matters and events that are strictly on a “need to know” basis. However, e-mail me at rgf072591@gmail.com, and I will discuss it with you further.

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238. Cassie,

     I think you really need to find a strong Bible-believing, doctrinally sound church with a good pastor and elders. Spend time in the Word and study, study, study…and pray for wisdom and guidance.

     Women can teach other women…but you don’t seem ready to teach anyone yet…you need time in the Word.

     Kindly,
     Katy

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239. Thanks, Katy. That’s the struggle though. Either churches are very spiritually based, but lack true conviction, or very biblically based, but lack spirit. It’s like, anyone can say homosexuality is wrong, or i renounce drinking and live holy life, but yet in the same breath, teach pry for the alcoholic, give him counseling, maybe methydone for withdrawals, and pray the heart surgery will work, but know true modern miracles. and neither seem to believe we can ressurect the dead anymore. that died out with the apostles. iguess im searching for something more like what we had in the past

     I mean, “…no true modern miracles…

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240. cassie, it is the TRUTH that sets us free and Jesus is the TRUTH. If you can’t find a good bible believing Church then go to the word of God and earnestly pray that God would show you the truth in his word…
     We don’t renounce things in our lives in our own strength. It doesn’t work.. Paul said clearly in Romans 8:13–“For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, “But if you live (BY THE SPIRIT)”–Christianity is not a message of self help. We cannot ever get rid of sin by saying I’m going to stop doing bad behavior or I’m going quit doing bad things. I’m going to stop doing this sin and this sin and I’m going to pull up my boot straps –NO. NO God’s word says to “put to death the deeds of the flesh BY THE SPIRIT.”
     Christianity flies in the face of self-help and says (you) (I) can’t help yourself. If we could help ourselves then Jesus wouldn’t have had to die on the cross. Until we get to the point of quitting and (submitting) and having utter dependence on the Lord Jesus we will continue to live in utter failure and defeat. You can be heavenly minded know God’s word, walking in the spirit but if you do not do one thing and that is SUBMIT to the Holy Spirit to Jesus Christ then everything falls. It won’t work.

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241. Ok, thanks numbers guy.

     Linda,
     thank you for your help. I understand holiness requires total dependance on the sacrifice of jesus.im looking for something real. not self help just an answer to my question. am i wheat or tare? but i guess if there has to be a question then the answer’s obvious

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242. on july 30th @7:54 it appears this blog got highjacked. is that what you call spiritual warfare?

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243. take my stuff down. nevermind
     take it all down on other blogs too. im sorry

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244. Mr. Burns: Got hijacked? It seems that the blog was doing exactly what it was supposed to be doing – helping people get the answers they need to hear from the Bible. Someone is reaching out for help, and while it is off-topic, this is ultimately about ministering.

     I implore the moderators to deny cassie’s request to take down her stuff; what she has posted needs to be seen.

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245. + 10

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246. 072591,
     I have to agree with you, we should never rebuke someone seeking answers and truth just because what they seek is ‘off topic’ with the thread, this overrides the thread imho. To hijack a thread in order to push agendas or cause division is one thing, to come here confused and looking for help is quite another. Good response, and I agree Cassie’s responses should be kept up.

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247. Agreed.
     :o)

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248. 07951, did you get my message? if not my email is loooneybynature@aol.com

     and I wasn’t trying to be offtopic. I’ve been told my whole life that im chosen to walk in fields like this, being a street preacher or prophet or healing and deliverance ministries. However I have brief shiney moments of understanding and then it goes away. I’m intelligent enough to know that it’s not enough, and self aware enough to no that i’m not producing any good fruit. i ask ministers to explain hebrews about falling away and all i hear is that if the holy spirit is still convicting your conscience you are not lost. just weak. i think thats a load of bs. every religion i hve named has a version of the holy spirit and a version of morality that usually on the first few layers match up with the bible. and then ive had people in the church, ladies in charge, be jealous of my knowlege of the bible. i laugh at that. obviously this was when i was at an african-american full gosbel/southern baptist charismatic church that was corrupted from the head down. people have put authority on me and i have done it to myself too. but i feel ive led people astray. thats where it came from when i read this

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249. Cassie, as one who was accused of highjacking the other Mark Driscoll blog and being the spear head of a satanic assault, I though the question a fair one. And given all the details you shared on your struggles and spiritual/religious beliefs and experiences, I felt that you could handle a diagnostic observation/question at least as well as you handled the insults to your style and intelligence. You are obviously a very sharp, experienced person. You have asked and answered many of your own questions and you stated or implied at least a half dozen theological/biblical positions/views that most/all of the people who blog here would challenge and find repugnant had your comments been directed toward a person held in high esteem by the majority. You have been given sound advice by the ladies but I know that you are looking for more than that…ready?

     NO ONE IN CYBER-SPACE, MATERIAL-SPACE, OR INVISIBLE-SPACE CAN IMPROVE ON WHAT GOD’S SON, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD AND THE CREATOR, SUSTAINER AND REDEEMER OF ALL THINGS, EVERYWHERE, WHEN HE DEMONSTRATED HIS LOVE FOR YOU WHEN HE SHED HIS LIFE’S BLOOD ON THE CROSS AND BECAME THE FIRST-FRUITS FROM THE DEAD IN HIS BODILY RESURRECTION AND ASCENSION TO THE FATHER’S RIGHT-HAND ON THE THRONE OF HEAVEN. YOU MUST BELIEVE THAT HE DID THIS FOR YOUR FORGIVENESS AND REDEMPTION FROM SIN AND THEN YOU WILL DEMONSTRATE YOUR FAITH, THANKFULNESS AND LOVE FOR JESUS BY A HUNGER AND THIRST FOR HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND A CONSISTENT COMPULSION TO TELL PEOPLE, ANGELS AND DEMONS THAT JESUS IS LORD AND THAT HE HAS DONE GREAT THINGS FOR YOU!!!

     I hope and pray that you can find the courage to forgive and forget what has gone before and then fix your eyes upon Jesus, the lover of your eternal soul, because God has not given you a spirit of fear. Your situation is not unique or strange and God has not given you more than you can handle. He has blessed you with everything you need and for all things pertaining to your life and godliness. In a word…you’ve been “looking for love in all the wrong places”… Resist the devil and he will flee from you as a child of God… Resist the Spirit of the living God and He will discipline you, teach you, correct you, train you in righteousness and never forsake you because you are one of His! Are you willing to be “devoted to the apostles teaching and fellowship, the breaking of bread and prayer? Will you find and “hold tight the pattern of sound words (of the apostles) with a faith and love which is in Christ Jesus”, alone? Everything else is merely, refuse! (Cassie, I know that you didn’t really mean to say “b.s.” in the presence of our holy God and given what you now know of His amazing, eternal love for you, there is no more need for anger and violence. Jesus has set you free and He has given you His peace and joy so that you can walk worthy of this good-news and live fully pleasing to your Father in heaven who has showered you with His wonderful grace.) Cassie, the only mystery in your life is found in your name but Jesus has given you a new name that only He can reveal to you. Oh, what glory is waiting for you when you find it! SJ Burns

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250. SJ Burns, thank you and I understand what you are saying. The reason i could handle what the other guy said is because i do not have doubts on my intelligence. However i do have doubts on my right to commune with believers since the bible says “do not commune with people who call themselves brothers and do these things.” i have lived a semi unrepentant lifestyle. Its like i try, beg God to change me, plead the blood of Jesus, get frustrated with myself and my seemingly inablity to change and inability to stay in what God does change in me and give up and say scrap it all. And then like out of the blue, i may be reading something, or have a dream that scares me, and i turn my life back to start the cycle again. i don’t believe in backsliders and i hate that phrase.
     Thank you for your word of encouragement

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251. Thank you, Cassie! I mentioned that your story (I don’t know “you” personally) is not “unique or strange” because it will help you to think of yourself biblically rather than emotionally. “No temptation/trial has come upon you that is not common to man but God is faithful and He will provide a way of escape.” (I Corinthians, something; it’s a great letter from God through Paul to us that is designed to give us a solid foundation for our faith in His Son, Jesus; “wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption”- GREAT VERSE!)

     Anyway, you can do this with His help and He has committed (remember the “blood”) Himself to you (“God so loved the world”). Cassie, our world values experience over reason so your challenge is to not let your knowledge of God’s word get overwhelmed by your experiences and fear. I’ve heard dozens of stories like yours while “ministering” to people on the fringes of churches and on the street. Pastor-kids on drugs or pregnant trying to break into peer groups, missionary-kids lonely at boarding schools hooked on porn, etc, all torn up in their minds between what they think they know and what they “feel” they are enslaved to…

     Just before Paul got his head chopped off by Nero, he told his beloved friend, Timothy, “God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.” No matter what anyone has told you or what your experiences have led you to believe or doubt, Paul has revealed in this last letter what the Spirit of God means by “power, love and wholeness/holiness”. It might take some time at the “throne of grace” before Jesus can teach you what you need to learn from Paul, but it is worth every effort and it will change your life!

     Now, on another note, I am very curious why you chose this blog on Mark Driscoll to tell your story with no apparent connection and secondly, are you aware that much of your story has similarities with the Greek myth of Cassandra (“the mystery…in your name”)? “…know the truth and the truth will set you free.” (Jesus)

     SJ Burns

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252. The Greek myth, Cassandra? I’ve heard of Cassiopeia. My name is Casandra, which is Spanish for “helper of mankind.” Cassandra is greek for “Prophetess; inflames men with love” but like i told my friend who named her son Damien after the devilchild in “The Omen” names are like superstitions. the only have hold if you allow it. when we die, if we go to be with God, he has a new name for us that is completely our own and no one else will have it. What our names mean and the cannotations of them in this life are broken in the name of jesus. my last name means servant of the god of peace. but it’s referring to allah.

     i meant to post this on why not to ask god into your heart. i pressed back too much and didnt check the blog i was on. ive never asked jesus into my heart, ive asked jesus to forgive me and take my heart of stone and give me a heart of flesh. the sin i have that i find the most damning is my lack of forgiveness. i believe it blocks my faith from growing.

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253. Cassie, un-forgiveness is a terrible scurge on the soul and spirit! When I am tempted, I think of my wonderful Savior, covered in blood and torn/bruised flesh, crying out to our heavenly Father, “Father, forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing!”. Who am I to withhold what the Lord of life has released in such amazing abundance! It’s like cursing the sunami from the beach!

     I’ve found over the years that it is best to know the scriptures intimately because our enemy likes to insert or change words/concepts in our head that can make a big difference in the Holy Spirit’s renewing/transforming work in our mind! For example, you stated, “when we die, if we go to be with God, he has a new name for us that is completely our own and no one else will have it.” What Jesus actually promised is quite different;
     “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” (Revelation 2:17)

     This is not a promise for the dead in Christ, but it is given to the church in Pergamos and to any who overcome, “where Satan’s throne is”. Satan’s throne is not in heaven and “manna” is for God’s people on earth. This is a promise from your redeemer to begin His transformation work in your life NOW, feeding you as would a mother cradling her child or as a bird feeds its hatchling and then reaching into the very issue of identity and giving you your name, even a “pet” name! Remember how Jesus gave some of His “guys” new names right from the git-go? That’s what I meant when I said to you;
     “Cassie, the only mystery in your life is found in your name but Jesus has given you a new name that only He can reveal to you. Oh, what glory is waiting for you when you find it!”
     Let Jesus cleanse away your past and all that you’ve come to identify with it (even email id’s) and wait for Him to give you what can only come from His loving hand.

     Ironically, among “evangelicals” we speak of a “personal relationship with Jesus”, but then we obscure it with our rhetoric and social disfunction!?! I hope this helps to clarify… SJ Burns

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254. Also I looked up Cassandra’s story. If my life echoes hers there is even more wrong that i thought. well, actually, in a way maybe it does, But her story is a story of occultism. not as dark as Lilith, but still bad

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255. dear moderators, I assume you are reading me as I write given that my last response to “Cassie” was instantly deleted when I posted it… Anyway, was I deleted for content or for volume? In regard to volume, I’ve waited for you all to respond to her as was voiced by so many after I weighed in. I was trying to fill the void and I see that she is not being ministered to off-line as she is now moving from one blog to the other with her personal issues. In regard to content, I have a lot of experience with the “wounded’ of the church who seem to go from problematic to disruptive, to antagonistic. It is spiritual warfare and “good advice” never is heeded to any good result. After praying for discernment, the Spirit seemed to highlight the issue with her name and His desire to give her a new identity! This was confirmed to me when I looked up the meaning of her name online and discovered many similarities which she is just this last post beginning to confirm!

     I’ve found that speaking “prophetically” to people stuck in cycles of blessing leading to sinful behavior to satanic oppression, cause them to come to the “living water” (woman at the well) and bring up the real issues. My goal is to meet them at the cross and to confront the issues of un-forgiveness and their need for the crucified and risen Savior that they have been very confused about. Brothers, we were on holy ground when you deleted me! I ask you, what would have happened to the woman in John 4 had you deleted Jesus at verse 17? Or maybe it was something else; I am here to learn from you! SJ

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256. Cassie, any further comments from me have been deleted by the moderators. You will have to allow Jesus to be your help as you seek to overcome the power of un-forgiveness in your life. Thank you for the honor of contributing to your search for truth! To the others here, thanx for helping me get back on track after my very difficult experience with the Driscoll type pastor. I think I will stick with face to face comments and ministry. See you in the clouds! SJ

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257. Not a problem

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258. sj, your posts have just been approved. you lost me with the name change thing. do you mean my first name or last name? i have the spanish version of my mom’s name sandra. or do you mean my identity? and the name is figurative, not literal? or does it have to do with being like my mom. idk…what exactly do you mean?

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259. I agree in a time and place for sharing topics that may cause anyone to stumble. My comment isn’t to defend anyone, it’s to remind us all that when satan is attacking the pulpit, the pastor’s context, the message, the lack of self-awareness, the thoughts of listeners who struggle to take thoughts captive…all that you describe sounds like satan stirring the evil pot.

     I don’t know either one of you. Humbly, I am a lay minister. God’s wisdom shines through when I hear your desire to protect and defend your wife and family. We are called as husbands to “die trying” to protect our wives, as Christ did for the church.

     When we are able to take every thought captive, Jesus is giving us the wisdom and strength to identify satan’s assault on our thoughts. Your wife was being assaulted, your children, the pastor, the body of Christ who was listening, potentially new members of the body, people contemplating becoming a Christian, unbelievers and unfortunately…you as well sir.

     The evil plot that satan is stirring is larger than you know sir. Your comments have replicated the context and has reached many readers who are now stumbling by reading your message of Your emotional response to protect your wife and children via the Internet attacks the pastor Mr. Driscoll. The same venom being injected by your message of contention magnifies satan’s initial strike on Mr. Driscoll, listeners and your family. How many people have now experienced satan’s venom because “it’s personal”? God only knows sir. I can see by the responses, it is now personal for many others as well and satan’s venom is going viral. Unfortunately, the spiritual attack launched by satan has created a trap that is perpetuating his plan.

     As believers, we are all part of one body. I do not stand before you, Mr. Driscoll, the commenters of this post or anyone that is not able to take thoughts captive and evaluate them with Jesus before responding as an Ambassador of Christ. Please do not respond to my post by stoning me sir before hearing the humble words of Jesus ringing in the hearts of everyone who reads this…”whoever is without sin, cast the first stone”. How many rocks is satan going to trick us into throwing before we are able to protect and love those who are listening to our words. Many people do not read the bible, they read Christians.

     Jesus humbly died on the cross and said, “it is finished”. If anyone had the right to cast stones, or better yet, rip the nails from His hands nailed to the cross and bring wrath upon every human that played a role in His death, how many of us would be left standing alive as His justified wrath punished every person on this planet? Instead we received His perfect love, full of mercy and grace—and His love never fails sir.

     In order to stand against the agents of darkness, we must unite as one body in Christ’s perfect love and allow Jesus to take the stand on our behalf—it is finished. The finishing nails that pierced the hands of our Beloved, the one who calls us His children, the One Who calls us “salt and light” is who I speak for today as I stand before a giant evil creature of darkness with just a humble sling, no armor and my rock Jesus Christ.

     I am an ambassador of Christ and my name is Joe Long. I do not stand before any man or woman who has contributed context to this post. I do not stand before the man who created this post. I stand before satan and his wicked strategies with the army of Christ followers on a Rock that will never be cast, slung or catapulted toward anyone. When Jesus says it is finished, it is finished. He is the only one equipped to do battle with satan. Sheep do not attack the lion or the bear threatening the flock, the lionhearted followers with faith the size of a mustard seed stand before the evil agents of satan with Jesus Christ Himself. We stand before evil with the Rock as our shield, taking every thought captive and asking Jesus for help during the war happening in our minds today before we respond emotionally without the tactical flawlessness of the holy spirit inside of us.

     As lovers of Christ, a body of believers who openly receive the love of Christ and allow God to love others through us…will you stand with me with a lion’s heart, rooted in the Rock of perfect love so that our stength will bend bows of bronze as the attack on our minds and our thoughts begins. Will you stand united in the love of Christ and say it with Jesus…”It is finished” with a humble, powerful lionhearted roar against satan in the perfect love of Jesus Christ.

     I pray all of is band together and pray this prayer:

     Please forgive me Lord for fighting fire with fire, for throwing rocks and swinging planks. This battle is yours Lord and I pray that Your Power and Perfect Love take the enemy captive in our minds, our hearts (emotional responses) and our actions in Your name Father. Give us the courage, strength, agility and endurace to run without stumbling as we do our best to bring You glory during our short time on Earth. We pray Your perfect Love Shines through is and pierces the heart of the evil one as he appears in our thoughts and minds. In your name DAD, we love you—“amen” (whispered with tears).

     I am Joe Long, an Ambassador of Jesus Christ and I am just your “average joe” without the love of Jesus. I can do all things through Christ who stregthens me…all things, including taking every thought captive.

     Do we stand before the context of evil with love? Do we power down the media of darkness, the messages of darkness with the perfect love of Jesus? Let those without sin cast the first stone. I pray the love of Jesus moves in your hearts with wisdom, clarity and His vision of love for our planet. Invite down the Love of Jesus through your humble hearts as you request our Father to “Reign His Love” from Heaven to Earth and let His loving will be done (finished) on Earth as it is in Heaven.

     His “living will of love” is the greatest inheritance we could have ever received as His children. Let us forgive often, honor others with loving words, boast in our own weaknesses and spend it as if we are holy fools as we love the people on this planet. His Will is a living Will that lives within you and me. Let the holy spirit lead you and let us all allow the holy spirit to help us bend bows of bronze as we battle with Him. Let His will of love spread like a viral message of love to our children…and dare I say…let our children become like arrows of love in the hands of mighty men and women of God. Let us teach them to have a lion’s heart of love as they direct and aim the children of the following generations to come as we extinguish the evil spirits together as the body of Christ. Let our arrows blot out the evil forces of hell in the mighty name of Jesus Christ…amen.

     Love always in Christ…your brother,

     Joe Long: 916-834-0004

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260. Dear Joe, I’m just checking back after some time away and given some time to reflect and pray for more wisdom than I demonstrate previously, all I can offer you at this time is the observation that you might be guilty in your post of throwing a few stones of your own at the people who have attempted to express their concerns about the behavior of a certain pastor/minister from the Pacific Northwest. You gave a fine speech but there is probably a big difference between the crowd of religious leaders and their “posse” and the “average joe’s” who contribute to this blog and its commenters. I would venture a guess that this kind of activity is more like anxious sheep warning each other of the dangers that lurk around the sheepfold and pharisees throwing stones at selected, unfortunate sinners. Just a thought before I run off again to help out a troubled widow or orphan, maybe, two! Your brother, Stan

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261. sorry, that was “than pharisees throwing”…

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262. Brother Stan,

     No intent of casting stones. As God’s Army of loving warriors in Jesus…my thoughts are very simple.

     In my new life in Christ, satan seems to stir the pot among Christians often. We’re all human and “the theif” is active in our everyday life (John 10:10). I’m not sharing anything that is new, I’m just wondering how we can practice it together. My intent is to inspire the practicing of God’s love as a whole. People sin differently than I do, but as an ambassador of Jesus Christ, I am to reserve judgement, gently correct, pray for the person and stand together with them against satan. The preacher and everyone in this post are being affected by satan in some way. I pray our hearts will turn to Jesus and that he will help the pastor, restore him and all of the people who were affected by his comments. I pray we stand together as Christians, broken with sin (we’re all guilty), but free from the chains of the evil one and we ask Jesus to reign over all of this today.

     God’s word is full of topics that were uncomfortable for me to read. Many topics in Corinthians caused satan to attack my thoughts as well as Hosea. The Song of Solomon too. I had to keep asking Jesus to fortify my thoughts, my heart and my soul. He is the Shepard who will protect all of us and give us “life to the full”. Pastors (Christ’s appointed shepards) do their best, as humanly possible with the help of Jesus, to be people after God’s own heart who will feed is with knowledge and understanding. My question is, how do we trust in this “in love” as one body? How do we respond when a shepard wanders off or runs off when attacked by a pack of satan’s wolves. My gut tells me to pray to Jesus, our Shepard who will protect all of us. Can we practice this? Not perfectly…we’re human, broken and we’re sinners.

     My deepest apology if I threw any stones. My intent was more like Jesus flipping tables with a loving defense of God’s love for all of us. If we can “love” together, satan loses. When we withdraw from our brothers/sisters in Christ, Jesus leaves the rest of us to rescue them while satan has a field day as we worship our golden calf of self-righteousness. I’ve been the victim of this attack many times in my life and I refuse to let satan attack me (or us) in this way. I do not stand on my own opinion, my own strength or my own beliefs. I stand with the Love and Strength of Christ Jesus, our perfect Shepard in times like these. I pray we can all stand united in Christ and the enemy says, “oh crap…the army has united and their launching prayers in Jesus name…retreat!” Who’s in?

     Your Brother,
     Joe Long: 916-834-0004
     joelong9675@gmail.com

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263. Hi Joe, I can appreciate your desire to keep it “simple” and to be a staunch advocate for “love”. I was living in “the 916” back in ’78 when I expressed my hearts longing to some good college buddies that “if I only have one life to live, I want to live it for peace and love”. We hated watching the old hippy ideals fade into the degradation of the “me decade” of the ’70’s. It was not more than a month later that Jesus came to my rescue and I found that these things I desired were actually a person and not just groovy ideals that masked the reals goals of more sex and drugs and R&R… You sound like a serious but tender hearted disciple of the Lord Jesus, so I would recommend that you strive to make your words conform more carefully to what the apostle Paul recommended to his beloved Timothy, “Hold fast the pattern of sound words (logos) which you have heard from me in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus…” (2Tim.1:13). The entire letter is a manual on becoming an “approved by God” servant of the Lord Jesus. Again, just a thought, but “flipping tables” sends a very disturbing message and communicates the harsh reality that you view them as “money changers” and the occupants of a “den of thieves”. Most people on this blog and in most churches around the world hate to think of themselves in this way and love would require the servant of God to reflect on people’s thoughts with more care… These are just a few things that I am learning about love and about accounting for my words. The Lord bless you, brother, Joe Long! Stan

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264. Brother Stan,

     I am an approved messenger of King Jesus and when I shared the context regarding “flipping tables”, I hope the message was crystal clear.

     God knows I am far from perfect and that I have zero authority to judge anyone. My loving intent to correct the attacks against the church is right in Jesus name. Anyone who attepts to shame an appointed pastor, defiles Jesus and His church. I’m not judging the people on this site, I’m warning them in love. God’s word offends, convicts and it’s sharper than any two-edged sword. It’s not meant to judge, but to correct actions that are against Jesus Himself.

     I do not know the pastor in question, you or anyone on this blog…but I do know that his choice of context used to share God’s word offended many people. God’s word offends. Context within God’s word offends in many ways Stan. It’s meant to offend and convict the spirit. Finding fault and judging a man, a pastor, who is sharing what Jesus has put on his heart is like nailing Jesus to the cross with your own two hands.

     Unless anyone has proof that the pastor is truly a false teacher, in Jesus name I pray you leave him to God’s work and you apologize to him and his family. He may not be a teacher you like, but I believe God allowed each of you to hear what God intended by design. Ask yourself…did you all pass the Jesus test or did you nail Him to the cross?

     If the word “Christian” means anything to you, ask Jesus if you should apologize and see what He puts on your heart. Maybe this excercise will reveal matters that are larger than the context from the pastor.

     – Joe

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265. Joe-

     Check out this article sometime, and consider it. Selah and God bless -Jim

     http://sacredsandwich.com/archives/2781

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266. Fleebabylon…what is The main point you feel I should consider?

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267. Hey Joe, I hope you’re having a good week! Here’s to a great weekend and a wonderful Lord’s day with His beloved and redeemed people. I certainly hope and pray that our brethren suffering under the world’s persecution and irrational violence find the grace and help for their times of need… Many of my co-workers are “suffering” this weekend due to the announcement this week that many of them are being laid-off in January due to a radical restructuring of our business. Management has it’s reasons and holds most of the authority so who can question their methods or behavior? ALMOST EVERYONE THAT I KNOW!
     Dear Joe, this is the point that Jim is trying to make with his article and that I have attempted to make with my testimonial/story type of sharing with you… no one is above biblical examination and reproach if needed… Paul went after false teachers and commanded Timothy to do likewise. Jesus called out the religious leaders of his day. Paul even wrote the names of a few flagrant offenders into holy scripture. Jesus warned his disciples against false brethren and said that we would know them by their “fruit”. Paul admonished the church to “test all things” and to expose the works of darkness in their midst. Paul told Timothy that “the goal of our instruction is love, from a pure-heart, and a good conscience and a sincere faith.” He went on to say that he was writing his letter so that believers would know how to conduct their behavior and teach sound doctrine in the church of the living God.
     These letters to Timothy are so vital to our learning to be Jesus’ ambassador’s until He comes in the power of His kingdom and authority. Joe, when I read your words I hear a lot of fear and confusion. Paul would lovingly remind you that “God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and love and a sound mind”. Brother, I desire these things for you as well, and I would implore you to make every effort to master the apostle Paul’s letters to His son in the faith. Then you will need to know every one of his other letters to the churches as well as the four gospels and Acts, and the letters of the apostle’s, Peter, James and John (“the pillars of the church”). Hebrews is so essential to a right understanding of the “old testament” and what can I say concerning the blessings I’ve received from my readings through Revelation! Joe, you must master the word of God and you have been given the Holy Spirit, the time, the resources and the freedom to do it… “and this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ…” (Phil. 1:9-11) Stan

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268. Stan,

     It’s presumptuous of you to think my note reveals fear and confusion. God didn’t give any Christian a spirit of fear. To mention my context and assume it reveals confusion or fear and then follow it with a bible verse that reveals God’s truth of the opposite…what is your purpose and intent? It’s completely unrelated to the topic at hand.

     To suggest that I should master God’s word and Paul’s letters infers that I am lacking mastery. I cannot even digest or internalize your instruction. It’s obvious for any Christian to aspire to master God’s word. It’s a life long aspiration for us all. Before running out of gas, it is wise to refuel. Thanks Yoda. 🙂 Pardon my sarcasm, but your assumptions of fear, confusion, lack of mastery and your council regarding the obvious is self-righteous. It’s the very attitude of spirit against the pastor and now me. It’s judgement and you have ZERO authority to judge the pastor or me.

     Jesus is my teacher and your context parroting His Word isn’t providing biblical examination or reproach regarding the pastor’s context or mine. Your intent is unclear. Your personal reproach and your opinion of my context does not even connect with the verses you shared Stan. It’s not related at all. It clearly demonstrates confusion on your part. Here is my clear and concise reproach.

     1) If the pastor is a false teacher, then he is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Is this true? If no, then people owe him an apology. Period.

     2) Judging the context he uses in teaching because people are offended by his context…is this biblical? Are you examining it and helping correct him in love by throwing him under the bus on the web? This is wrong …period.

     3) Reponding to me and sharing your opinion that I am fearful, confused and in need of mastery is completely distorted. It IS self righteous and assumes you know the intent behind my context and my knowledge base. You assume many things Stan and you’ve judged based on your assumptions and opinions. It’s wrong…period.

     This is correction. This is reproach as it relates to your return note. This is me assuming positive intent in love Stan:

     I believe your intent is love and care. We are all in need of examination. We are all in need of being less judgemental. We are all in need of aspiring to God’s word. As I state the obvious, please know my correction is in the specific offense of judging the pastor. Whoever started this blog or manages it needs to remove it. Maybe he shared context in a sermon that offended. Maybe he does this often…either way he is a pastor in Jesus name. Judging him and blogging this for all to read for years to come…it’s wrong. If it’s a mistake he made or makes…he is to be corrected in love…not judged. When you or anyone else reading this info gets to heaven, what if Jesus has a blog of all of your offenses that condemns you?

     I pray that whoever posted the comments, removes them. I pray that everyone involved examines their actions and comments, including me. I pray that we learn to judge less and love more. When Jesus calls us “salt and light” He could of easily said, I know your entire life and you are going to offend me with your context that judges others or causes them to stumble…now it’s personal. Instead He calls us salt and light even though He knows we will not always minister to people perfectly.

     I’m moving on. The reproach of the pastor is wrong. If you believe otherwise and the comments are not deleted…then heed my warning Christians…Jesus is the only way to the Father and He sees your intent, your judgement and your attempt to discredit a pastor…an imperfect person like you and me, appointed by Jesus to share the word of God.

     I pray your mistakes, judgements and contextual offenses are forgiven as well as the pastor’s in this case. Have a great weekend.

     – Joe

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269. Joe, before you “move on”, let’s back up a bit and ask some hopefully, helpful questions… You use the word “context” a lot in your comments and having read all of your posts a number of times, I’m still not clear on what you are saying when you use the word? You have stridently advocated for “love” among brethren and the church but you did not come into this discussion with a hug or a hand-shake (I speak metaphorically), but rather you came in with both barrels blazing and a “table-flippin” spirit. Don’t you think that is confusing? You have mentioned “satan” and “attacks” and warfare concepts like “taking every thought captive” a lot in your comments in such a way that it makes the reader feel concerned for your mental and emotional state of mind. Wouldn’t this cause the reader to wonder if you are being terrorized by satanic thoughts that cloud your ability to understand the intent of this discussion? What exactly, has been your effort to “master” God’s word or have you been indoctrinated in a system of theology or one man’s/one groups opinions on what the Bible teaches and what our calling is as “Christians”? How is humility and gentleness expressed when the individual has predetermined to repeatedly declare his self-appointed authority as an “ambassador of the King” and as a “lay pastor” and proceeds to “flip tables”, conduct spiritual warfare, pronounce judgments, warnings and demands for repentance and retractions? There are many other questions, but the one thing that causes the greatest alarm is the fact that you are very careful in your use of capitalization and I notice that you do not capitalize “Holy Spirit”. Is this not a name for almighty God, third person of the Godhead, co-equal with the Father and with the Son, God of very God, full of all glory and honor, blessed forever and ever, Amen? Just thoughts that I’ve had Joe, reading your very lengthy and revealing comments, I mean no offense and I make no judgments! I hope and pray that you will be able to do the same after you consider these few questions that your words have raised in my spirit as I read them “then” and as I continue to try to understand them today…

     “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they shall be filled.” Stan

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270. Stan & DefCon Readers,

     My request is that you and any other person who has been offended by the pastor, submit to the authority of Jesus. I pray Jesus moves you to forgive and be free from harboring bitterness. We’re all guilty and hopefully doing our best to walk in love…supporting each other along the way. My intent was to warn against being offended and responding with hearts of bitterness. We can do better with the support of Jesus.

     Stan…I’m sorry I have stirred you in a way that caused you to pick me apart. In an effort to warn and correct actions in love, it became personal. I do not wish to debate. My hope was to reveal that when evil comes in, we can come together in love. Even when Jesus was temted by satan, He was tactful, authentic and confident in His authority…He didn’t have fear or ill words to say to satan. It’s a great example for us to learn from.

     So, do we submit to the Authority of Jesus Christ or are we going to live for ourselves? Doesn’t it say more about our character to pray for our enemies? I pray you answer the call in love so that change can happen for future glory without judgment, but loving correction. It’s not personal, it’s our mission to make diciples of love and to reach the lost, we must not point fingers.

     Love Joe
     (handshake to Stan)

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271. So Joe, you believe that church officers are beyond reproach unless they are “wolves in sheep clothing”. Am I correct in quoting you on this? If so, how is this determination made and by whom in your opinion? Do you think it might be possible that Mark Driscoll is a “wolf” or an apostate or even a false teacher? What exactly, is the Holy Spirit’s authority over predator’s in the church of Jesus Christ? Joe, I am not invested in protecting the opinions of this blog or my reputation or in taking something away from you (winning)… I have “gone to the mat” with a few people on this site in the past and I was not pleased with what it brought out in me and I had doubts concerning the usefulness of the whole exercise. I happened to check back after some time and was moved by your concerns but concerned and confused by your presentation. I thought I might be able to help you but you seem to have your thoughts and the mind of Christ all worked out and beyond examination. If you are not willing to respond to my questions, I see no use in trying to understand your posts, not because I don’t think you are a fine person and worthy of careful consideration, but simply because I do not understand what what you say…

     Jesus said that His sheep would hear His voice and follow Him. Honestly Joe, when you speak I do not hear Jesus’ voice but I know that you earnestly want to speak for Him, so forgive me for thinking I could help you from what I’ve learned and experienced from God’s word. Beyond all that Joe, have you even read the other info on this web site on the words and behavior of Mark Driscoll? What is your standard of conduct in the church of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God? What would the Holy Spirit have us do when standards are overthrown? Joe, you seek to exercise “Authority” but your words only bring up questions and confusion for me and I am a disciple of the Lord who longs to be submitted and obedient to the Holy Spirit. I do not wish to grieve Him or quench Him, but if I am going to continue in this discussion, I need some of my questions answered. I hope this is a discussion or is this just Joe making a pronouncement?

     Your friend, Stan

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272. My husband has a sexual addiction, and we both very much appreciate Mark Driscoll. He is very frank on the issue – which is what we love and you seems to hate. It’s not something our young daughter would be ready for yet, but as a sermon to adults we think it is quite appropriate. In fact, we wish more would be like him. It is a sin that affects way too many people, and yet it is rarely discussed from the pulpit. We appreciate that someone is finally calling it out. And you talk about it somehow being a hindrance to people with sexual problems, but my husband actually finds it quite convicting and helpful. You may not appreciate him personally, but it would be wrong for you to deny that he is of great use to God in others’ lives.

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273. JJ,

     Thanks for stopping by. I think you miss the point regardless of what problems and sins are being faced. Two wrongs NEVER make a right. Just because Mother Theresa fed the hungry does not mean she was of great use to God. The fact is that she was a lost individual who will spend eternity in hell for her lack of faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Driscoll’s problem is compounded by the fact that while he thinks he is “helping” people, he is actually disobeying the Scriptures and has long ago disqualified himself from pulpit ministry. A pastor can call truth from the pulpit without descending into the gutters to prove that it is a bad place to be.

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