The latest pockmark to appear on the already scarred face of CCM comes from one of evangelicalism’s favorite “worship leaders,” David Crowder of the David Crowder Band.
Crowder, who is the
author of the contemplative-promoting book, Praise Habit (referring to the habits worn by Catholic nuns),
also participated in a contemplative/emergent conference with the likes of
Leonard Sweet, Chuck Fromm (founder of the event and of Worship Leader magazine), emerging leader Sally Morgenthaler, Brennan Manning proponent Michael W. Smith . . . contemplative/emerging Marva Dawn, Alpha Course leader and contemplative proponent Todd Hunter, and others.
(See more about this from the source Lighthouse Trails.)
But Crowder’s lack of discernment doesn’t end here. He recently granted an interview to the Roman Catholic “movement” known as Life Teen (whose promo video was previously featured on DefCon here) in which they state on their website:
Because of our deep Eucharistic devotion, Life Teen has developed a spirituality that is
- 100% Catholic
- Obedient to the Magisterium
- Centered on the Eucharist
- Scriptural
- Liturgical
- Catechetical
- Sacramental
- Focused on social justice
And:
On December 9, 2007, [at] the Feast of St. Juan Diego, we consecrated the Life Teen movement to the Blessed Virgin Mary and will renew our consecration annually by prayerfully participating in the St. Louis Marie de Montfort Total Consecration. [Emphasis theirs]
And:
Our entire ministry is dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary so that we may be led to the feet of her son with the obedience she exemplified.
If you’re wondering why Crowder (or any evangelical for that matter) would grant an interview with the idolatrous Romanists whose teachings and beliefs are antithetical to biblical Christianity, wonder no more. Crowder–whose music may very well be in your car stereo or on your teenager’s ipod right now–concedes in this interview a rather interesting source of influence in the “formation of [his] faith.”
Here’s the question from the interviewer Matt Smith:
You are not Catholic, but on your Illuminate album, you sing a prayer of St. Francis of Assisi. What’s your connection?
Here’s the evangelical “worship leader’s” answer:
Much of the Catholic traditions and writings have been influential in my formation of faith and to be quite contradictory of what was stated earlier, I’ve found much inspiration there. St. Francis is a figure I’m equally attracted to and repelled by. I long for his powers of disassociation from the trappings of “stuff.” I’m beset with consumption and materialism, and he is a compelling symbol of contentment. His contentment and way of suffering terrify me.
You can read the whole interview here.
Let this be a warning fellow pilgrims, not all that glitters is gold, and not everything labeled “Christian,” that’s sold in “Christian” bookstores, and that’s played on “Christian” pop-music stations is what it’s purported to be.
Be cautious that you are not influenced by those who’ve been influenced by Rome. Be careful little eyes what you see; be careful little ears what you hear; and always be sure to choose your entertainment wisely.
Christ Alone Wyoming 
Eeeeek!
Never surprised to see what comes next from this camp….
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That dude looks like a relation to the freak who “tokes Jesus” – his name eludes me but you know who I mean.
On a related note, I saw a billboard yesterday, far north Houston, touting this web site: MEJ.com It’s a very new-age Roman Catholic outreach program. Perhaps people could drive by, listening to David Crowder’s music and see this billboard. The two go together like chocolate and peanut butter!
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Nothing surprises me about these artist’s.
Pilgrim, I think you ran a lawn mower over a yellow jackets nest with this post ; )
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I long ago gave up on our local Contemporary Christian Music station – an operation that rarely uses the word “Christian” – rather using the two tag lines “Positive Hits” and “safe for the little ears in the back seat”. The CCM station on Siruis XM is no better.
What is really disturbing is the hold these artists have on believers – especially young, impressionable believers.
Interesting that Isaiah and Ezekiel both hint at the idea that Lucifer was involved in music before he was cast out of God’s presence.
Hab
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i lol @ u
jesus wuz made fun of 4 hangin out wif sinners, 2. good thing he still loved da newbs who judged him.
ur trippin on crowder for da same stuff, lol.
how much did da pharisee class cost u @ seminary.
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Joe, I doubt you are of the Faith.
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Joe –
It would be beneficial if you have an opinion, whether positive or negative regarding this post, to express yourself with full sentences, real words and at least a cursory adherence to basic grammar. This will take you a lot farther in life if you so desire to grow and mature into a man of God rather than following the reckless path set by Gen Y who seem to think it is cool to break any and all rules.
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Habakkuk–
Great idea man. Attack the music. As if the worship wars of the 90’s weren’t enough. Hey, did you know that the piano was a bar instrument before it ever entered our churches. Are you aware that Charles and John Wesley hung out at the bar and that many of their hymns are old bar tunes. I guess that means some of those “Hymns” are actually satanic tools used by Lucifer himself. Get a grip!
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Joe’s comment proves that the dumbing down of America, or any nation for that matter, is indeed ‘cool’. We have sunk to the depths of not deeming it necessary to speak in complete sentences, not using proper grammar, and assuming our ‘opinions’ hold more water than God’s own word. I am almost afraid to say this,but, can it get any worse?!?
Yes, I know the answer to that already…..
Come quickly Lord Jesus, before we self-destruct
Lyn
————————————————————————–
Jason,
Hey man, can you like back up your comments with any kind of biblical proof man?
My horrific grammar is done on purpose to emphasize my previous post, the dumbing down of America.
Since when is it acceptable before a Holy God to ‘borrow’ something from the secular world, in this case, rock music, slap a ‘Christian’ label on it and serve it up to the Lord as an ‘acceptable sacrifice’?
What is lacking in Christianity today? Discernment; the goats follow this garbage, the sheep cry out against it.
There is a reason why John the apostle warns us so clearly in 1 John 2:15, ‘DO NOT LOVE THE WORLD’.
“Listening to music without discernment and godly intent reveals a heart willing to flirt with the world” – from C.J. Mahany’s book ‘Worldliness’.
P.S.- It isn’t so much the music as it is Crowder’s bad theology, this is evidence of what really lies in a heart. What we believe shapes and molds us, whether it be 100% absolute biblical truth, or a little truth mixed with a little poison, which is always deadly.
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Hey Jason,
Your ignorance of the facts concerning Charles and John Wesley is alarming. Maybe you’re wrong about a lot of OTHER stuff too, no?
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=2639
Did the Wesleys Really Use Drinking Song Tunes for Their Hymns?
by Dean B. McIntyre
There is a popular misconception that continues to survive among United Methodists that John and Charles Wesley made use of tavern, drinking, or bar songs, as melodies for their hymns. The same is often heard of the great reformer and musician, Martin Luther. This claim is sometimes made to show the extent of their evangelistic zeal; namely, that they would go out into the secular culture, even into the taverns, saloons, and parlors frequented by the sinners they sought to redeem and make use of the musical language, the familiar drinking song tunes, for their own sacred hymns. The claim continues to be made today by some musicians, pastors, worship leaders, composers, and hymn writers. Unfortunately, this is a misapplication of a historical inaccuracy.
Confusion of Terms
The truth is that the Wesleys and Luther never made such use of saloon songs, nor would they have condoned such use. The misconception stems from confusion over a musical term ‘bar form’. In German literature and music of the Middle Ages, “Bar” was a poem consisting of three or more stanzas. Each stanza was divided into two Stollen (section a) and one Abgesang (section b), which yielded a form of AAB. The term “bar form” is commonly used today to refer to any poem or musical composition in this AAB form, or any variation of bar form, such as AABA. A number of Luther’s hymns and tunes used this form, including “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God.” Other chorales (“Praise to the Lord, the Almighty”) and hymns (“What a Friend We Have in Jesus,” “Come, Christians, Join to Sing,” “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross,” “Rescue the Perishing”) also use bar form. A number of tunes accompanying Wesley texts in the current United Methodist
Hymnal also use bar form, including:
“Praise the Lord Who Reigns Above,” UMH 96
“Thou Hidden Source of Calm Repose,” UMH 153
“Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus,” UMH 196
“Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise,” UMH 312
“Love Divine, All Loves Excelling,” UMH 384
“I Want a Principle Within,” UMH 410
“See How Great a Flame Aspires,” UMH 541
“Come, Let Us Use the Grace Divine,” UMH 606
“O the Depth of Love Divine,” UMH 627
“Because Thou Hast Said,” UMH 635
“Give Me a Faith Which Can Remove,” UMH 650
“Come, Let Us Join Our Friends Above,” UMH 709
“Lo, He Comes with Clouds Descending,” UMH 718
It is not difficult to understand how the musical term, bar form, also sometimes referred to as bar tune, can become confused in an uninformed person’s mind with barroom tune, drinking song, or some other title to indicate music to accompany the drinking of alcoholic beverages.
The Wesleyan Aesthetic for Hymn Tunes
There is also the deeper issue of whether the importing of secular and drinking songs into the church to accompany congregational singing would be acceptable to the Wesleys. Wesley issued three collections of tunes: the Foundery Collection in 1742, Select Hymns with Tunes Annext (in which first appears his celebrated “Directions for Singing,” reprinted on page vii of The United Methodist Hymnal) in 1761, and his last, Sacred Harmony, in 1780. What we find in these collections yields an important insight into Wesley’s musical aesthetic for hymn tunes. Here we find the simple, traditional psalm tunes and hymn melodies, primarily from Anglican song. A number of these survive in our own 1989 United Methodist Hymnal (nos. 60, 96, 142, 181, 302, 385, 414, 450, 682). However, many of Charles’s texts were in increasing number and complexity of meter and required new sources for tunes to accompany them. John made use of new tunes composed or adapted from folk tunes, sacred and secular oratorio, and even operatic melodies. It should not escape us that whenever Wesley allowed the use of secular music — as from oratorio and opera — he used music of accepted high standard and almost always from classical rather than popular sources. In no instance did Wesley turn to tavern or drinking songs or other such unseemly sources to carry the sacred texts of songs and hymns.
Another help to understanding what Wesley considered appropriate in hymn tunes is to be found in his “Directions for Singing.” Of particular importance is a portion of his fourth direction: “Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of its being heard, than when you sung the songs of Satan.” It is clear that Wesley intends the “songs of Satan” to no longer be sung. Also important is his seventh direction:
“Above all sing spiritually. Have an eye to God in every word you sing. Aim at pleasing him more than yourself, or any other creature. In order to do this attend strictly to the sense of what you sing, and see that your heart is not carried away with the sound, but offered to God continually; so shall your singing be such as the Lord will approve here, and reward you when he cometh in the clouds of heaven.”
Wesley’s aesthetic to “above all sing spiritually” simply would not allow drinking songs to accompany hymn texts.
Finally, in no hymn book, tune book, or other publication of the Wesleys can there be found any example of or encouragement to use drinking songs for singing hymns.
What About Today?
The question still remains, “What about today? Just because Luther and the Wesleys didn’t use drinking song tunes and other popular music for their hymns, does that mean we shouldn’t?”
Whether Wesley did or didn’t use drinking songs is not really the issue. Rather, the issue is why Wesley did or didn’t use them. Wesley found the close association of hymn text and tune (even commonly referred to as a “wedding”) to be of such importance that the use of tavern songs was beneath consideration. It was never a possibility. That question remains for us to answer today. Do we find it acceptable, appropriate, and commendable to select the music of drunken sailors or the local tavern for our worship? If Wesley’s reasoning for the Methodists of his time remains valid for our own, then the answer is no; and those who choose to use such music in worship should be able to dispute Wesley’s practice convincingly. Further, those who justify in our day the use of secular culture and influences in United Methodist worship by claiming that Wesley used drinking songs in his own day should be called to account.
For further discussion of this topic, see Dean McIntyre’s article “Debunking the Wesley Tavern Song Myth”, posted August 16, 2002.
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=5442
For Further Reading
“Bar Form” entry in Harvard Dictionary of Music (2d edition, revised and enlarged) by Willi Apel (Cambridge, Mass.: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1969).
“Bar Form” entry in Encyclopaedia Britannica
Companion to The United Methodist Hymnal by Carlton R. Young (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1993).
“John Wesley’s Choice of Hymn Tunes” by Fred Kimball Graham (1988), The Hymn 39 (4):29-37.
Sing with Understanding: An Introduction to Christian Hymnology by Harry Eskew and Hugh T. McElrath (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1980).
___
Dean B. McIntyre is the director of music resources for the General Board of Discipleship.
___
This article may be copied, downloaded, and used for local church worship and education use without charge provided this entire copyright clause is included on each copy made.
Copyright — 2001, 2002 The United Methodist General Board of Discipleship, PO Box 340003, Nashville TN 37203-0003; telephone: (615) 340-7073; Worship Website http://www.umcworship.org. All rights reserved. Useb by permission.
posted 4-17-01
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@Jason – re.: “Are you aware that Charles and John Wesley hung out at the bar and that many of their hymns are old bar tunes. I guess that means some of those “Hymns” are actually satanic tools used by Lucifer himself. Get a grip!”
That is a myth which has been dispelled for years. Here is some decent research on this ‘perpetuated justification for compromise’:
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/tavernmusic.html
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/luthertavernmusic.html
and this one, from Dean B. McIntyre (the director of music resources for the General Board of Discipleship with United Methodists):
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=2639&loc_id=17,387
The fact is, Luther and the Wesley’s did not use tavern music as templates for their hymns. If you bother to read the articles, I’m sure you will see the error of this myth.
_________________________
1 Cor. 1:18 – “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
1 Cor. 2:2 – “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
1 Cor. 3:19 – “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.”
__________________________________________________________________
@Jeff H – same thought at the same time?… nice.
…
I don’t ‘denounce’ anyone who listens to CCM as heretics or any of that nonsense. I firmly believe though, and am convicted, that it is worldly, deceptive, stylistically profane, and in many ways worse than regular pop music. Worse, because at least secular music doesn’t pretend to be something that it is not. I see around me those with very consecrated lives; those who seem to be holy women and men of God, who are Christ-like in their sanctified walk: and they turn away from this type of music. I believe Jesus would not have celebrated or partaken in profane (common) worship styles, yet still embraced those who chose to. In the parable of the Father (prodigal son), the father still shows compassion on the elder son in Lk. 15:31-32 in spite of his dead works, legalism and selfishness. While I DO view much of ‘liberal’ Christianity (CCM-embracing) as heavily works-driven, inwardly-focused and even legalistic (I know, that sounds like a contradiction, but on close investigation of liberalism you will find that the grace of God is made insufficient), as long as they aren’t straying from the fundamentals of the faith, they are still brethren. Sadly, many of their churches are the most tare-riddled places on earth. My wife and I desire to serve God in a Church that is neither Laodicean nor one that has lost its first love due to dead orthodoxy (Rev. 2:4). God has gracefully placed us in a local Church which worships Him using only the old Hymns (and even those with discernment), and Psalms. When Christ is truly at the center, the trappings of the world will easily be washed away because of the beloved elect’s glad obedience to Him. When the center becomes institutional, corporate and purpose-driven (etc…), then ‘anything goes’ in terms of worship (as long as felt-needs are met, and numbers climb), and then of course the local church (and subsequently, the denomination) begins to look like the world.
In Christ,
Aaron
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y wud all u people want 2 listen to da old songs?!?!?
i want to sing a new 1!!!
my yuth pastor sayz itz nawt wut christian song u sing but da heart and ‘tude behind it.
thanx 4 alienating da next genurasion of christians wif ur lame rules.
i’d prob hav to wear a suit to b axepted @ ur church, huh?
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huhhhh?
what did joe say?
I don’t think he is serious
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FOR EVERYONE OVER 16 . . .
(translated with Google Translate)
Why does it seem that many on this site wants to enforce a “only my old hymns” song list for my iPod? (Zune actually, but you get the idea.)
My youth pastor has taught us that what you sing isn’t as near as important as your heart behind it. Isaiah 1:13-15 I happen to believe him.
It feels as if adults are trying to alienate the us because our culture didn’t fit into what there’s was when they grew up.
Keep your LAME rules that dictate appearance (suits, no hats, jeans or piercings) and focus on whats on the heart. That is, if you don’t want to lose us.
iz dat ok?
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I suggest you keep your worship of Christ biblical. Stop dragging the world into the church and dressing it up as ‘Christian’. Those who truly love Christ have no desire for piercings, cool dress, or any other means of trying to be just like the world. We are not of the world, that is why we have no desire to be like it.
Examine yourself Joe and see if you are indeed in the faith. Those who have been born from above are being changed from the inside out, it’s called regeneration. It’s the transformation that takes place in the mind, both by His power and His word; this transformation is made manifest in our thoughts, speech, and actions.
You can listen to whatever you desire, you can dress however you desire; that doesn’t mean what you want and like is biblical.
I ask you this, show me, from scripture, where youth pastors and praise and worship bands are mentioned?
I am not worried about ‘losing you’, I am more concerned if you are truly saved,by biblical standards, not man’s. No decision, no inviting Jesus into your heart, no method of simply choosing Jesus is found in God’s word. Those who truly are born again are the ones whose lives reflect a change, a desire for holiness, to be conformed to His image. That may not fly too well in today’s emerging church; truth is, the road that leads through most churches today is broad and wide, we all know where it ends.
From the original post, how do you defend this Joe? Please, use a biblical defense…
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Funny thing Joe, but there are rules in life per God’s ordination of orderly society so you best grow up and learn to deal with them if you want to go anywhere in life. Unless that is you desire to revert back to the uncivilized ways of the barbarians where grunts were the accepted means of communication.
Secondly, boys who want to grow up from being childish to being men, seek to put away childish things (see 1 Cor 13:11) and to learn from their elders (1 Pet 5:5). In this, they likewise submit to rules (nasty things that they are) and not to boast as if the world revolves around them. Read the Scriptures and you will find that it is parents and elders whom God has entrusted to lead the young, not the other way around as your generation arrogantly believes.
Thirdly, you do well to note that the Scriptures declare rebellion as the sin of witchcraft where God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Finally, from one who labels rules as LAME it is ironic, is it not? how you want us to follow your rule whereby we submit to your wishes. Sorry – but that is not happening and if you and your generation is lost, it is not at our expense but rather due to your recalcitrant and rebellious heart.
Howz dat 4 ya?
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Ha ha ha ha….This is entertaining! I’m sitting here reading this as my bride practices How Great Thou Art for a funeral tomorrow.
Old bar songs!?! Not in the ones I used to frequent.
Joe Mama…It’s not about YOU it is about JESUS…till you understand that, you ARE alienated…cach my drif?
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I don’t get the “show me the praise and worship bands and youth pastors are biblical” question.
Couldn’t I just ask you “Show me where Blogs, Children’s Pastor, Christian Arts, underwear, hair coloring, makeup, etc” is in the bible.
Why should a guy be considered an unbeliever if he has his ear pierced?
As far as praise and worship bands are concerned, those who were skilled musicians led worship in the old testament, why should it have changed?
Also, if I dress “cool” (lol), I don’t understand how that reflects a heart that desires worldly pleasures more than Jesus. Does dressing uncool make me more holy?
When I witness to others at my school about Christ, I better not be wearing a robe and sandals! After all “Man looks at the outward” right? As long as I’m clean and covered up(as MawMaw says) my conscience is clean!
I’ll try not to offend others with my outward appearance, and I’ll please God with my inward one.
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Joe,
I am asking you to show me, from God’s word, where He has mandated the office of youth pastor/minister/group. Also, where do we find Christian rock bands defined in scripture?
As for how we act, dress, behave; these outward ‘works’ are evidence of whether or not one is truly saved. You see, the battle is in the mind, a mind that is saturated with God’s word leads to an outward behavior that manifests itself in proper attire, speech, conduct, etc.; no worldly traces are found, such as tattoos, piercings, etc. Let me ask you this, how are tattoos, piercings, etc glorifying to God?
This is from God’s word, – Lev 19:28 You ‘shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD’
If you cannot define your beliefs solely by scripture, then you have created a ‘god’ in your own image, a god who looks, acts, and is just like you. This is a grievous sin.
Piercings don’t necessarily mean one isn’t saved, many of us have piercings, tattoos, etc. we received BEFORE God saved us; would I get a tattoo now? No, I refer you back to Lev. 19:28. No one is saying you aren’t saved because of your piercing, it is your defense of unbiblical ways that make you suspect.
BTW, you haven’t responded to my request for a biblical defense of Crowder’s comment on the Catholic traditions and St. Francis.
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Where are quartets, classical music, Southern Gospel in the Bible? I think that question about Christian Rock bands doesn’t make sense.
How does my teacher’s Just For Men beard give God glory? Or my mom’s color treated hair lift up Jesus? It’s not in the Bible, but big deal if they do it.
If God can be glorified by David’s adultery, or anyone’s sin for that matter, how could he not get glory by a non sinful act? (like having a pierced ear, or tattoo of jesus name in greek on my back when i’m 18!)
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Joe,
If you think Psalms 51:4 says that God was glorified in David’s sin, your comprehension of Scripture is worse than your command of English.
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I must emphasize God was not glorified in David’s sin of adultery and murder, He was satisfied in David’s brokenness/confession over his sins, which the Spirit of God produced in David.
Joe, I do not mean to be harsh, or unloving. I am afraid you are caught up in some unbiblical practices, I strongly urge you to weigh EVERYTHING in light of Scripture.
I do hope you will consider listening to this sermon, http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52906154239, by Paul Washer. May God work a mighty, supernatural work in you.
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How about Titus 2:6-7. Paul encourage Timothy (a pastor) to teach young men.
I think you teach me differently than you teach my PawPaw, so why not have separate classes and get-togethers for us. I don’t think everything should be separate, but some classes should.
It’s impossible for my senior Pastor to be everywhere at one time, which is why Paul told Timothy to “teach faithful men who will be able to teach others also” II Tim. 2:2.
I look at it like this
My Senior Pastor (Timothy) taught my Youth Pastor (faithful man) who is teaching me (other’s also)!
I think thats the best I can answer that question.
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what does seem ironic is the fact that an apology was given not to long ago for what seems to be the attitude going on I these comments towards what seems to be a young believer. this being a site where brothers like paul washer and others are quoted, I find it hard to understand how someone has the nerve to question this young man’s salvation based on a couple sentences not mention why weren’t those comments deleted.
does anyone even have a clue what washer means when he says ″its better to have it and not know what to call it then to know what to call it and not have it″ seriously that’s not zeal or boldness, that is an absence of the fear of the Lord.
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Julius, you are correct in your assessment of some of the comments made here, including mine. I humbly apologize to Joe, and to any whom I may have offended. This young man is in dire need of truth, not being attacked.
Thank you for pointing out my sin of pride.
I do pray this comment from Joe,
— will cause him to repent as well.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Let's hope he repents of his sin of dishonesty, posting under two different names and misleading others, including myself, here. He obviously did not come here seeking truth, but to cause disruption and uphold opinions over God's word. May God be merciful.
Lyn
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Good point unworthy. I was in direct disobedience to Paul’s command to me. Sorry to everyone I offended.
Julius,
Do you think it’s ok for me to go to youth group even if it’s, like unworthy suggested, not a mandate in scripture?
I’m kinda confused now.
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There’s some suspicious behavior transpiring on this thread.
JoeMawma’s e-mail and I.P. address are identical to that of Jason’s, yet they try to appear to be two different people, even leaving a comment to himself.
Something’s fishy here.
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I think you’re right, Pilgrim.
Remember, Jason’s first comment was a high-temperature railing accusation against Habakkuk and the Wesleys, breathing fire about judgmental condemnation of the worship wars of the 90’s, sordid history of the piano, and sarcastically ascribing to us the “satanic tools used by Lucifer himself”-labelers.
He ends by admonishing us to “Get a grip!”
Hmmmm.
– Jeff H
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Hmmm! i’d say busted
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Praise the Lord for the responses!
As to whether or not this is jason posing as someone else seems to be an admin problem, which would be quite pitiful.
Joemawma,
whoever you are, you asked me a question and so i’ll answer it.
First it would seem odd if you’re asking for yourself since you are a little old for youth group.
Youth groups don’t work, and that because they are plan b, yet that doesn’t mean every person in a youth group or the churches that have them are in sin.
However there can be sinful motives in starting one, and in who is hired for the job.
Youth groups cater to the cultures isolation mentality, it provides yet another place for young people to avoid their parents (and any other adult oversight) which only nutures the pride and rebellion found within.
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In some ways this site is enjoyable and helpful. In other ways this site cries wolf just a little too much. This is an example of the latter.
So what that David Crowder appreciates St. Francis of Assisi. Why are you sounding an alarm over this? You make this out to be an issue that is way more than what it really is. I don’t understand. In one way or another we have all been influenced by the Roman Catholics (your theology is just as much from Augustine as it is anyone else). They were the church for over a thousand years. If they are so bad why did God allow them to come into existence? I’m not saying I agree with them or their theology, but many of them are fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and their seems to be more important issues to deal with.
If you cry wolf too much, like in the story, people stop taking you seriously.
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T Sheets: The Roman Catholic Church has NEVER been the bride of Christ; it has always opposed Him – more and more as the years have unfolded. Saints of the living God are commanded to mark those who depart from the Truth as a service to other sheep. Rodney King is not God.
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I hate to disappoint you Pilgriam, but I have no idea who JoeMawma is. I am an ordained minister of the gospel in the Nazarene church. I received an undergraduate degree in Music Business from Trevecca Nazarene University and I received a Masters degree in Ministry with an emphasis in Church Leadership from Indiana Wesleyan University. I currently serve as a Campus Pastor at a Nazarene church in Colorado.
My initial comments on John and Charles Wesley were correct. They did use bar tunes to minister to those whom they were seeking to save. They did use the piano, which was a traditional bar instrument not found in churches until a much later date. And they ministered to a group of people who were so depraved, my guess is you wouldn’t even bother saying hello to them.
You ask, how do I know any of this to be true. Well, I did just spend two years receiving a masters degree from a Wesleyan university, but that probably isn’t good enough for you. So I’ll tell you that I took a one week intensive class on the life and times of John Wesley just last summer. During this class I actually went to England and visited many of the preaching sites of John Wesley. I also visited his childhood home, his home in London, and get ready for this………..three taverns that he frequented in various areas of England while he was on his preaching circuit. In all locations we were learning from Wesley experts who actually do this sort of thing for a living. To further put a wrench in this debate about how holier than thou some people would like to think John Wesley was, it may surprise you to know that he was horrifically mean to those around him, treated his wife horribly, and was a bit of a womanizer. So, I must contend by your reasoning that anything he was a part in creating is not and could not be redeeming in anyway. I move that we immediately stop singing any of those “great hymns” he was a part of writing.
Now, I suspect you and a number of your friends will now follow this up with more articles that perpetuate false history of methodism, Wesley and the like which is fine. The reality is we could go back and forth all day with various articles that will back up each point and counterpoint till we’re blue in the face. Sounds like fun.
On another note, those of you who like to throw around scriptures like Lev 19:28 You ’shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD’. I would like to point out to you that it is Levitical law which we were set free from with the saving power of Jesus Christ. If you would like to subscribe to those laws may I suggest a few others that I doubt you are following as closely…..
Lev 7:23 Do not eat any of the fat of cattle, sheep or goats (I for one like a little fat on my New York strip steak and I eat it medium rare and a little bloody)
Lev 11:10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales – whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water – you are to detest (watch out for those lobsters and crab that so many enjoy)
Lev 19:19 Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed (I actually don’t have a field, but I do have a garden with lots of different seeds)
Lev 19:27 Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. (I’m totally cool with the hair thing cause I wear mine long, but the beard thing I just can’t roll with. I like my gotee!)
And the list goes on and on and on. So unless you’re willing to live by all levitical law, please don’t throw parts of at me. Oh, by the way, I have a tatoo of my son’s name and his birthdate on my arm. I love it, I love him, and I love God. I’m pretty sure it won’t damn me to hell.
Oh and by the way I did NOT post this. May have been someone else with the same name or JoeMawma, but it wasn’t me.
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Jason, is it wise to boast of your education; all the degrees in the world are nothing unless God himself instills His wisdom. No school can teach you the things of God, the Spirit is the one who reveals truth.
As for Wesley, you believe what appears to be gossip about this man’s life, here-say, etc. Is this wise?
True humility is a tough lesson, one we all need to pray to learn.
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Jason,
Ah!
Did you even read the articles Aaron and I posted above?
Your scholarship of the Wesleys is just plain wrong. It’s unfortunate that you can’t admit it, but more so that you perpetuate this urban legend gossip/smear campaign.
On another topic, if you really are a victim of mistaken IP address duality then I repent of my comment and sincerely apologize to you… unconditionally.
In Jesus,
– Jeff H
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I’m not boasting bud. I’m just setting myself apart from anyone who you may think is posing as me so that I’m not accused of being Joemawma.
I’ll be sure to let my professors and all of the instructors I learned from over there in England know that they are gossipers and spreading here-say.
———————————————————————-
Actually Jeff, I did read the articles you posted and had actually seen some of them when I was taking my class on Wesley because this was a topic of debate. The reality is, there are two sides to every coin and since none of us actually knew John or Charles it is pretty difficult for us to know the exact truth. I will stand by my belief, based on what I learned during my coursework and you can stand by yours.
On another note, it appears you have a problem with the Nazarene Church. Not sure why that is unless you’re a part of the fringe group of “concerned nazarenes.”
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Jason, again, you base your accusations against someone according to what some professors tell you; are they reliable because they are better educated? Are educated men/women above sin, such as gossip, here-say, tale-bearing?
Do you have concrete evidence for your claims, other than what you’ve been taught?
Bear in mind, our school system teaches evolution, does that mean what they teach is accurate?
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Unworthy, you fail to recognize that I can use the same argument against you. Are those magazine articles reliable. How do you know? How does anyone know? We’re you there walking with John or Charles? Obviously not. Who’s to say the history that you’ve supposedly been taught is more accurate than the history I’ve been taught.
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Jason,
I am NOT defending or ripping Wesley apart, YOU ARE! You say you know, almost factually, that Wesley used ‘bar tunes’.
There is NO absolute truth outside of God’s word, so to say otherwise is not accurate. However, some myths can be dispelled by those who were there to witness firsthand.
There is no perfect man or woman, to attack a dead man seems pointless, unless your motive is to assassinate his character. That is really the key behind all we think, say or do..our motive. This can lead to sin.
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I’m not out to assassinate Wesley or his character. In fact, I love Wesley and follow very closely to his theology. My point in all of this is that God can and does use man to accomplish His purposes. He can also use a man who may not have been the nicest, who may have been a womanizer, who may have been known to throw a couple beers back, who may have had an affiar (King David), who may have denied Jesus three times (Peter), etc. This idea that rock music cannot be used to glorify or worship God is absurd. The idea that God can’t use David Crowder to accomplish His purpose on the earth is ridiculous. Do I subscribe to all of Crowder’s theology? NO. Do I subscribe to all the theology taught to me at school? NO. That doesn’t mean that God can’t use those entities whether school, or a rock band, or a televangelist or a mega church pastor to accomplish His will and do good things on the earth. My problem is that groups of which you appear to possibly be associated with would like us to think that the only way you can be a good Christian is if you sing only certain hymns, dress only a certain way, see only certain movies (probably not at the theater), go only to a specific church and subscribe to only their brand of theology. The problem with this is that if that is truly how Christianity works, your group will be the only ones in heaven and it will be a VERY small minortiy of people. I just have a tough time believing that. I believe that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. I also believe that you should love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, sould and strenth and love your neighbor as yourself. If you do these things you’ll make it. I for one, look forward to spending eternity with the likes of Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, Deidrick Bonhoeffer, Paul, Peter, Mother Teressa, Pope John Paul, and a host of others whose theology I may not completely subscribe to. Granted at that point we won’t care about our petty differences the way that we do here on earth because we’ll be too consumed with awe and worship for our creator. Maybe if we spent a little more time doing that now instead of arguing over Crowder’s theology we’d get to see a little slice of heaven here on Earth and it might just be a better place. Peace!
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Jason, your lengthy comment was classified as ‘spam’, I have approved it.
You said, ‘This idea that rock music cannot be used to glorify or worship God is absurd. The idea that God can’t use David Crowder to accomplish His purpose on the earth is ridiculous.’
You are correct, God used Pharoah for His purpose, He uses false teachers/prophets for His purpose as well. Those who reject absolute biblical truth fall prey to men such as Crowder. If someone embraces false teachings, such as that of the Roman Catholic Church, do you think they are trustworthy?
As for rock music, what is its origin? I do not find rock music in the bible, I know it originated/ got its name from Alan Freed, a /50s d.j. Do you know what ‘rock and roll’ means?
Please, refrain from responding with a list of questions such as, ‘what about country, or gospel?’ etc. If this is your response, it will be deleted.
BTW, David and Peter repented of their sins, that’s the difference in a true believer and an apostate. Repentance is a gift given by God, you simply cannot repent apart from the Spirit of God bringing you there.
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Jason,
Do you embrace Wesley’s view that man could attain a sinless state while here on Earth, prior to the New Earth? Have you read Whitefield’s letter to Wesley? John Wesley went off the reservation and it’s a pity anyone follows him and his Arminian theology.
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Manfred
I do not believe man can attain a sinless state while here on Earth however I do believe in progressive sanctification with entire sanctification becoming the end result at glorification when we are made whole again in heaven. The problem with a sinless state here on earth is original sin which I personally believe there is no way to completely erradicate. Based upon some of Wesley’s later writings I would also state that he did not believe he could attain a sinless state although you could strive for “Christian perfection” As for Whitefields letter, I do not believe I’ve read the entire thing although I have read correspondence from the two of them, just not sure exactly which letter you’re referring to. Finally, why is it a pity that anyone follows Arminian theology. I don’t find it a pity that some may follow a Calvinist theology. In reality any theology is just some mans feeble attempt and completely understanding God which quite frankly I don’t believe any of us can do. I believe and hold fast to a Wesleyan theology. Does that mean it’s 100% right. Of course not, but it is a theology I’m comfortable with. I don’t think that if it is wrong, it would keep me from salvation though.
unworthy1,
Thanks for posting the comment. I was quite confused as to why it wouldn’t go through. Sorry also for my long windedness. In response to your last post all I can say is the Bible doesn’t say anything about a lot of what we deal with today. It doesn’t mention cars, it doesn’t mention any style of music quite frankly, it doesn’t mention modern medicine and all of the issues that arise from it’s use, etc. So to throw a certain genre out because it wasn’t mentioned in the Bible doesn’t make sense to me. As for what rock and roll means, I’m not sure but to me it’s just a genre lable for a style of music and quite frankly isn’t used all that much anymore. In fact in the charts you’ll see rock, country, gospel, punk, alternative, classical, etc., but never rock n roll.
As for David and Peter repenting, you are correct. They did, and my guess is so has everyone else in the list of people that I mentioned, I know that I have on numerous occasions and I would suspect you have as well. We just aren’t privy to that information about each of those individuals and what there specific sins may have been.
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Jason,
It’s a pity anyone follows Arminian theology because it is – as are its forefathers of full and semi Pelagianism – considered heresy. These faulty theologies deny the sufficiency of Christ, relying on man to complete His FINISHED WORK. Salvation and sanctification are of the Lord, not of works of the flesh, lest any man boast.
Repent of this foolishness.
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Manfred,
Well, I’m impressed that you apparently have figured out the only “true” theology. Based on your post I assume that you believe that I am not a Christian and am going to hell because of my theological leaning. That is unfortunate. I will not repent of this foolishness because I do not believe it is foolishness. I hope to meet you one day in heaven and at this point agree to disagree with you on arminianism.
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Jason,
I don’t figure out anyone’s destiny. The Bible declares that anyone who depends on works of the flesh will fail. ALL who rely on works for ANY spiritual good will fail. Only those who are called to new life and trust in the risen Lord for His imputed righteousness and full payment of sins has new life.
It’s heresy. It denies the sufficiency of Christ. It glorifies the flesh.
Repent and believe on the Lord for forgiveness of sin and life eternal.
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Jason,
The Bible does not condemn music at all, however, when we borrow what originated in the world, such as rock and roll, and slap a Christian label on it, we are serving up to the Lord a tainted sacrifice. FYI, the phrase rock and roll originated from immoral sexual behavior in the back seat of a car while teens listened to…guess what? Rock and roll. When we understand the battle is in the mind, then we see what we allow into our minds does indeed affect our thoughts, actions and speech. That is why the Bible says, ‘do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind’ Romans 12:2
Now Jason, do you believe you are saved because you chose Jesus, or you invited Him into your heart, or you repeated a canned prayer?
If so, then what do you do with Ephesians 2:1 {And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins}? How does a dead man revive his soul, to the point of being awakened spiritually to his own sinful condition? This verse says ‘hath he quickened’, or better translated ‘hath he made alive’. God is the one, according to His word, who saves. Salvation is His gift, which He gives to those He gifts with faith {Eph. 2:8,9}. Have you ever been given a gift Jason? If so, did you have to do anything to receive that gift?
Sinful human pride wants to take credit for a part in salvation, but I do not find that in God’s word.
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I think you’ve got this wrong Manfred. I know full well that I cannot depend on the works of my flesh. I know full well that my only hope for any kind of salvation or sanctification rests solely in the hands of God. Apparently your understanding of my theology may be incorrect and I think your understanding of Wesley and Arminianism is skewed by your theological leaning. Seriously, agree to disagree on this one. I’m not judging you for your beliefs but it sure feels like you’re judging me based on your call for me to repent of my foolishness which I might add I believe is against the rules of engagement on this blog. Anyway, I’m heading to the gym. Peace!
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Jason,
I look forward to your response to my post when you find a minute to do so. Have a good workout.
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unworthy1,
Yes I have received a gift and no I didn’t have to do anything to receive it other than be willing to receive and accept that gift. I do not believe it is out of human pride that we accept this gift, but I do believe we have to play a role in salvation. Rev. 3:20 “Here I am. I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will com in and eat with him and he with me.” Obviously we have to open the door, we have to ask for forgiveness, we have to accept that he is willing to do something in our life. Rom. 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Again, we play a role, we have to confess, we have to believe, but that isn’t something we do out of pride to feel like we can take credit for what God is ultimately doing.
Unfortunately you and I could go round and round using scripture to prove our point and neither of us would necessarily be wrong or right. I just hate the pettyness of these types of arguments. With that said, I have to sign off for the night as I need to go lead my worship band (yes we play modern rock music and hymns) in rehearsal. I trust that you all will have a good evening and even though we may disagree I still consider you to be my brother in Christ. Till me meet again, or I see ya on the other side. Peace!
jason
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Jason, that verse is always taken out of context. Christ was talking to the Laodicean church. Note who He was addressing just a few verses up, the lukewarm. He is speaking to the church of Laodicea; one would naturally understand He was addressing those who profess Him as Lord, those who’ve made a verbal allegiance to Him; however, there doesn’t seem to be a supernatural work of God in them, there is no ‘evidence’ of the new birth. They do not see their need for true salvation, they are blinded by deception. So, in a sense, He is addressing lost sinners; they think they’re saved, but He tells them otherwise.
I will add John MacArthur’s commentary on this passage, ‘ Verse 20 tells me that Christ is still on the outside trying to get in. So we must assume then in verse 19 that these are not believers, but God loves the world.
And I think there’s a sense in which because these people have outwardly identified with the church, outwardly identified with the Kingdom which has grown to be so massive that it includes the true and the false, as some of the parables of Matthew 13 indicate that it would, but the very fact that they go around naming the name of Christ and outwardly identifying with His church puts them in the unique sphere of His concern.
So, He says those whom I love I reprove and discipline. Could He be here referring to unbelievers? Yes. Reprove is the word that means to treat with contempt. It’s used that way in many extrabiblical sources. In Matthew 18:15 it is the word to convict. In Ephesians 5:11 it means to expose. So He is saying I love the world and I love the world enough to expose the sin of the world, to convict, to bring reproof and judgment. Frankly, it’s nothing more than a general term for God’s action toward sinners. You can compare its use in John 3:20, 1 Corinthians 14:24.-from ‘Laodicea, the Lukewarm Church’ at http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/66-15
As for confessing and believing, how is it you are able to do either?
You have neglected the scriptures I gave, both found in Ephesians chapter 2. Can you expound them please? Please start with ‘dead in sin’, then proceed on to ‘he hath quickened’.
I strongly urge you to also study Jeremiah 17:9
>><>>>>>><<<<<<>>>>>>>>><<<<<>>
When you insist God needs you to complete the salvation process, you negate Eph. 2:8,9, ‘For by GRACE are ye saved’…
You no longer have salvation by grace, instead you have salvation by works. ‘God saved me, but not without my help’ is what you ultimately adhere to. This stems from pride.
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my 2 cents about Romans10:9. I think it is a reference to what Jesus said in Matthew 10:32. In that verse Jesus is talking about confessing Him before men during persecution. I don’t think Paul is talking about just giving lip service to the Lord. But it is a way of life of being sold out and willing to die for Jesus that Paul is speaking of.
I better be careful or I might start talking about Lordship salvation ; )
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Dear Jason (#1, not to be confused with Jason #2 who is also JoeMawma),
You’ll have to forgive me for not properly clarifying which Jason I was referring to. I was not referring to you, but the other Jason who shared JoeMawma’s same e-mail address, I.P. address, and self-generated WordPress avatar. The same Jason and JoeMawma who have since ceased and desisted all further comments on this thread after their (his) trickery was exposed, (and all of this in spite of Julius still thinking JoeMawma was actually genuine and sincere).
This here is the Jason I was referring to. Sorry for the confusion.
On a side note, you also said:
Do you really believe Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul are going to be in Heaven? If so, what are your thoughts on Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Charles Taze Russell? Are they part of that “host of others whose theology I may not completely subscribe to” but you expect to still see in Heaven? If not, why not? If so, why so?
– The Pilgrim
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Wow. Quite a bit of discussion going on, but maybe some of it can be distilled down slightly:
1. As for the Wesleys, Jason you should — as a Christian — ALWAYS put the best perspective on any situation… assume the Wesleys were NOT engaged in bar tune writing, because that would be inconsistent with Christian behavior. You have chosen to take the “low road.”
2. You said:
Yes, I do. As has been mentioned already: Arminianism is blasphemous, because it elevates man and brings God low.
‘Poor God couldn’t save me until I did my part’… ridiculous.
Don’t try to rob God of His glory!!
If you say:
…then you are a heretic to your own church (Nazarene)… or perhaps yours is a renegade congregation.
3. You said:
Listen to your responses:
“I don’t believe”…
“I believe”…
“I hold fast to”…
“I’m comfortable with”…
“I don’t think”…
No Scripture, just FEELINGS!
THAT’S the problem, and is just a symptom of your Arminian “faith”… You’ve elevated your feelings, and you’ve brought God’s Word low!
Theology is much more important than you ascribe to it.
Follow Paul’s admonition to:
“Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves” (2 Corinthians 13:5)
God’s Word is:
“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)
and:
“‘Is not My word like fire?’ declares the LORD, ‘and like a hammer which shatters a rock?'” (Jeremiah 23:29)
Can your feelings do that?
4. You said:
So we should just forget about defending and contending for the Gospel and let the rule of ‘anything goes’ prevail.
First Crowder…
Who is next?
Is Benny Hinn o.k. with you?
Rick Warren?
Joel Osteen?
Joyce Meyer?
Rob Bell?
Tony Campolo?
Jesse Duplantis?
Bill Hybels?
Rick Joyner?
Alan Jones?
Doug Pagitt?
Creflo Dollar?
T.D. Jakes?
Bob Jones?
Paul Crouch?
How about a muslim or a buddhist?
…or a satanist?
Anything goes?
…and you think the world is getting BETTER???
YIKES!
In Christ (alone),
– Jeff H
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A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
A blind man cannot choose to see.
A dead man cannot will himself to life.
For these impossibilities to occur, an agent of unimaginable power and will must choose to produce these results, defying all logical and tangible limitations set upon the creation itself as one who is not subject to its constraints but rather is able to subject the creation to the limitations that he chooses according to his will. One of such power would not be obligated or indebted to the creation (for nothing in creation could force this agent into compliance) and therefore would do so only for his purposes, in whatsoever fashion he chooses, if he so chooses.
Wonderfully and graciously to the redeemed, God is this agent, purposing to make known the glory of His grace and mercy, His steadfast love and faithfulness, through faith in Jesus Christ to all whom He chose before the foundation of the world. To underscore the greatness of His grace, God has raised the spiritually dead who had no hope nor ever sought Him to eternal life in the Lamb. His Holy Spirit removes a dead heart of stone from a man conceived in iniquity, who cannot enact his own will beyond the definite the limitation of his nature, which is sinful and fallen, and grants him a living heart of flesh, allowing the man to understand and to will beyond the limitations of his fallen nature, that in God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ, a new creation is made in Him through repentence and belief in the Gospel.
The main point being, the One doing everything in salvation is God. I have yet to see the scripture that negates the numerous declarations from God that all men are evil, that no ones seeks after Him, etc and that man has some little, tiny spark of goodness and understanding to enact his almost nearly entirely corrupt will (but not entirely corrupt, after all, we all know we have ‘free’ will, right?) and ‘choose Jesus’. If God did not choose to do this, no one would be saved, we would all choose our evil and pride over His glory, and everyone would be cast into outer darkness, to the thunderous applause of those heavenly beings who serve Him and love His glorious and pure perfection of righteous judgement.
God forbid I should return to the newness of my salvation a few years ago (in a sense), before I had begun to read His word, when I thought ‘I’ made the smart choice that much of the world just couldn’t seem to grasp. Christ saved me from God’s just wrath against me and then, in time, from the pride that thought I had ever brought anything to the table, even something so small as a ‘choice’.
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Well said Brian.
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Okay gentlemen, here is the deal. I’m not gonna play the scripture game with you. I’ve gathered that you are all quite intelligent and you and I both know that each of us can take scriptures and make them say whatever we want to prove our point. Then of course the other will counter with the argument that it is taken out of context. Next we will resort to using commentators like John MacArthur or Warren Wiersbe or a whole host of others. This will only further my point that there are a number of different theologies and beliefs on what any and every scripture says and or means. Again I will stress that I do not believe any man can fully understand or grasp God or make full sense of His scriptures. Quite frankly, if we could he wouldn’t be worth worshipping. I prefer to have a little mystery surrounding my God. With that said, let me respond to a couple things and I will kindly go back to my home and leave all of you alone.
Yes I believe Mother Teressa is going to heaven. Yes I believe Pope John Paul will be there. I also believe Wesley, Calvin and a bunch of other theologians will be there. I DO NOT believe Mormons will be there because they use a supposed Gospel that has nothing to do with what I believe we would all agree are the true Holy Scriptures.
Obviously I don’t believe Muslims or Buddhists or Satanists are going to be there. Their beliefs are in direct opposition to what we’ve been taught that no ones comes to the father except by the Son. I do however find it a bit disconcerting that you lump so many others into that category. Look, I don’t love Rick Warren, Doug Pagitt is not my hero, I don’t love or hang on every word out of Rob Bells mouth, but I’m certainly not going to lump them in with Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims and Satanists. And for clarifications sake, yes I do believe those names I mentioned will be there in heaven along with us.
Finally, I’m not telling you or urging you to believe as I do, but it bothers me some that based on what I am reading it appears that you and only those who think exactly like you will be in heaven. You have an uncanny ability to damn others to hell without ever really saying it. Maybe that is not your intention, but in our dialogue I have felt like you’ve attacked whether or not I am a Christian simply because my theological leanings don’t match up with yours. It just seems as though you believe your the final authority on scripture and on what it means to be a Christian. I for one have no desire to be a part of a body that makes no room for differing opinions. Instead I will choose to be confident in my salvation. I will choose to accept others who may not believe as I do and I will choose to do my very best living my life as I believe Christ himself would do. Not judging others, hanging out with sinners, and loving all people with the hope that maybe just maybe they’ll see a glimpse of Christ in me causing them to repent and believe that He is Lord. God bless all of you, it’s been a fun discussion and I pray that someday we’ll be able to put our differences aside and agree that Jesus Christ is our Lord, our Savior and our only hope.
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A game? Is that what you think of using God’s two-edged Sword?
My question to you is: ‘WHICH Jesus?’
The problem is that if you asked each person on the list I posted “Who is Jesus?”, you would likely get answers that do not match up with the Jesus Christ of Scriptures.
Even the Mormons proclaim Jesus, but as you alluded to, their ‘Jesus’ is just a created being, whose brother is the devil. Obviously, this is NOT the Jesus of the Bible!
If one does not have the right Jesus… one does not have the father either, Jason.
So… by your logic, I ask: why read the Bible at all? You’re giving the same argument the RCC gives for preventing a Christian from owning and reading the Bible for himself.
NONSENSE!
Through proper hermeneutics… rightly dividing the Word… we really all CAN understand the Bible, and apply what it says to ourselves and our circumstances. In fact, we are commanded to do so!
God means what He said, and He said what He means!
So, Jason… you are wrong: quoting Scripture is not a “game”.
When confronted with Satan’s temptations in the desert, our Lord responded repeatedly with: “It is written…”
Would your response be: “I feel like…”, “My opinion is…”, “I choose to…”, “My desire is to…”, “I believe…” ?
Your posts are peppered with your opinions… Have you ever stopped to see what God’s opinion is…. from Scripture?
But the lost HATE God… they are not seeking Him! He is their enemy, Jason, and they are His enemy.
So, would you love them enough to TELL them about sin and judgment so that they may SEE the need for a Savior in order that they may repent and trust in Jesus?
…or will you just let them, in your silence, go to hell?
Hmm?
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As the Lord told the crowd of His day: “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
None can find or enter the narrow gate of his own. None can carry another through the narrow gate. Christ alone shows the way to EACH of His sheep and He carries us through the narrow gate and bids us walk with Him on the narrow, hard path.
As we look around and see so many who deny the sufficiency and excellency of Christ, let us be encouraged by remembering: Wide gate, easy path, large crowd – hell bound. Narrow gate, hard path, small crowd – eternal life.
Let us NOT try to comfort ourselves by gathering large crowds, but by being obedient to the One Who saved us and bids us and equips us to honor Him.
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Jason,
This site is about cyring wolf. They do it often and loudly.
Realize it and move on my brother.
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Nice, worldly blog you have there T Sheets…
…speaks volumes.
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For all the sinners saved by the grace of God in our Savior, Jesus who is the Christ – let your heart and soul rejoice in gratitude!
You know I ran across an old box of letters
While I was bagging up some clothes for Goodwill
But you Know I had to laugh at the same old struggles
That plagued me then are plaguing me still
I know the road is long from the ground to glory
But a boy can hope he’s getting some place
But you see, I’m running from the very clothes I’m wearing
And dressed like this I’m fit for the chase
‘Cause no, there is none righteous
Not one who understands
There is none who seek God
No not one, I said no not one
So I am thankful that I’m incapable
Of doing any good on my own
‘Cause we’re all stillborn and dead in our transgressions
We’re shackled up to the sin we hold so dear
So what part can I play in the work of redemption
I can’t refuse, I cannot add a thing
‘Cause I am just like Lazarus and I can hear your voice
I stand and rub my eyes and walk to You
Because I have no choice
I am thankful that I’m incapable
Of doing any good on my own
I’m so thankful that I’m incapable
Of doing any good on my own
‘Cause by grace I have been saved
Through faith that’s not my own
It is a gift of God and not by works
Lest anyone should boast
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Manfred,
Do you realise that song is by Caedmon’s Call? Which is mentioned critically in the original post?
Good song, though… I just thought that was funny. Too bad Derek Webb has kinda gone off the deep doofus end.
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Jason said
This is a very, very tragic statement Jason because Mother Teresa and John Paul did not know the gospel, they did not preach the gospel and hence they did not believe the gospel. A rudimentary study of their doctrine, words and writings will quickly testify to this truth. I suggest you study this matter out as a false understanding of the gospel is deadly. A paper on the doctrine of Mother Teresa can be found here which I highly suggest you read.
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Speaking of David Crowder, I by chance got a glimpse of the video he and his band did for their song “Forever and ever” or whatever it is titled. Anyway, they do it in Japanese animation and show it as a battle between an army of squirrels and the David Crowder band. To me, what does that have to do with Christ? I would ask why it is on a supposed Christian channel but then I remember that it is a more live by the world channel than a Christ promoting channel.
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Dear unworthy1
My name is Matthew and I have 1 statement and a couple questions to ask you and I would love to hear your thoughts on them. I realize that you a Father in terms of your spiritual maturity and I am only a young man in mine so I would love to hear your wisdom in your answers to my questions.
Statement- I found this baffling and careless at best “Those who truly love Christ have no desire for piercings, cool dress, or any other means of trying to be just like the world.
How do you know who truly loves Christ?
Here’s why, this is my story
Im 32 years old and before Christ called me to be saved I was really into the world. I did drugs, had sex, stole, drank and took the Lords name in vain without a second thought. I was heavily into pornography and dishonored my parents constantly. I was lost on my way to a Christ-less eternity. One day Jesus in all his grace and with his eternal plan in mind called me to be His very own. He illuminated his holy Word causing my dead heart to be made new. Soon after that and I mean soon he started to change my desires to be more like his. It was nothing that I could have ever done on my own but with His Spirit I was now a new creation.
Three years after being called by Jesus I wanted to get a tattoo to remind me of the change he caused in my life. So with a clear conscience (that doesn’t make it right but it is just a truth of that moment) I went and got the word GRACE tattooed on my arm.
Fastforward to present day. I am now 32 years old and I regret getting the tattoo. I feel as though the Holy Spirit reminds me more about God’s grace than a tattoo ever could. Im sorry I got it and I feel as though it hinders my testimony sometimes but I TRULY LOVED THE LORD WHEN I GOT IT DONE! I was just immature in my faith. People who are called to be saved grow at different rates and even though I agree with you that tattoos are a sin I would never go as far to say someone who gets one doesn’t really love our Great God for in my case I LOVE HIM MORE THAN LIFE! For I was forgiven much!
Just a thought
Im to tired now to ask my questions but I will get back to you soon.
Matthew
___________________________________________________
Unworthy
Do you have an Email that I could use to ask you some questions in private?
Thanks
Matthew
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Matt,
Getting a tatoo is not a sin. You have nothing to apologize for (to us or God).
The passage used over and over by so many is taken out of context (Lev 19:28). This is more about association with pagan practices than it is a modern day tatoo. Now of course we wouldn’t want to put things on our body that would be vulgar or obscene, but getting a tatoo itself is not a sin.
It’s about the heart. Always has been always will be.
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It’s about the heart? Always has been always will be? Ummmm….no. The Bible clearly says that the heart is deceitful. Why get a tattoo when it is clearly a symbol of a pagan world?
I get tired of this stuff of “It is okay for a Christian to do it because of the heart and it is okay because it is a Christian doing it.”
1 John 2:15-17
Do Not Love the World
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
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Matthew Birch,
Let me clear up a couple of things, first off, I am female. I too have a tattoo that I received before God saved me. I understand you getting one as a ‘babe in Christ’. The best testimony we can give for Christ is a ‘changed life’. This is a life that consists of living separate from the world, not wanting to be like the world in any way, shape, or form. I am not stating that a tattoo will cast you into hell, I am stating that a heart that has been changed by God will no longer desire tattoos, piercings, designer clothing, etc.
Why do you now regret your tattoo? I believe we both know the answer to that. I do praise God for your testimony, it is more powerful than any mark on the body! I can relate to many of the things you spoke of in your testimony.
What I see today with so many ‘youth pastors’ and ‘Christian artists’ is a desire to be relevant to the culture in order to ‘reach them’. You cannot tell the so-called believer from the unbeliever. We have forgotten what works, what changes, what convicts, what transforms…the Gospel. There is nothing else that needs to be added; we do not have to look like Marilyn Manson in order to reach Marilyn Manson, we have to give him and all who are lost in sin the word of God. Hebrews 4:12 seems to be all but forgotten, ‘For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.’…and Romans 1:16, ‘For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.’
Where does the power to transform a dead in sin sinner lay? In the GOSPEL, not in looking worldly, not in relevancy, not in any man-made effort. So many say Christ ‘hung out’ with sinners…no He did not. He went to them yes, and he gave them the words of life, then he moved on. He never dressed like a harlot, nor did he get drunk, He knew what worked, He didn’t have to be relevant with the culture.
Our desire should be to be like Christ, to be holy. Tattoos and piercings have their origin in pagan practices, is that really what we want to be associated with?
Matthew, I do believe you understand, you are, just like me, maturing ‘in the faith’. May the Lord guide you in your walk with him.
Lyn
BTW, go here, http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/, you can e-mail me from there.
T Sheets- so you get to pick and choose what is ‘relevant’ and what isn’t from God’s word? Tell me, is it now okay to kill, steal, be sexually immoral, etc.?
It all goes back to the garden….’Did God re-e-e-ally say???’
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I’m just curious where you guys get the idea that getting a tatoo is sin?
Where do you pull that from scripture?
David T – I’m not saying it’s about us looking within and trusting our own heart when I say it’s about the heart. I’m saying it’s about God transforming our heart so that our actions are changed because we have been filled with His Spirit. To really be able to keep the law we need a transformed heart. Isn’t that the message of the Sermon on the Mount? Isn’t that how our righteousness (which is from God) surpasses that of the pharisees and scribes?
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When one takes into their mind the word of God, for example ‘do not love the world’, or Lev 19:28 ‘You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD’ one understands the dangers of ‘borrowing from the world’ as well as the command ‘DO NOT’ or ‘YOU SHALL NOT’.
This is where I ‘pulled it from scripture’. Again, tattoos are associated with pagan practices; our God is HOLY, we should not taint ourselves or our sacrifices,i.e., our way of living, talking,etc., with worldliness, wickedness, or pagan practices. We are called to be what? SEPARATE from the world, not like it. The problem with the emergent/new age/prosperity/health wealth/American visible church is a total LACK of understanding the holiness of God, as well as a lack of fear and reverence.
Remember this from 1 John 2:6, ‘He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.’ Christ is our example to follow, not the world.
Show me, T Sheets, where the expiration date is on Lev. 19:28, explain and expound to me how this verse was, as you say, taken out of context.
Also, could you show me, from scripture, where God commands us to get a tattoo,or a piercing?
Also, when you say ‘heart’, do you understand the Bible is NOT talking about feelings, emotions, etc? Heart means ‘mind’, the word of God changes our thinking, which changes our actions and words. That is why Romans 12:2 is such a wonderful verse to ponder…
Lyn
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Lyn, I respect your stance (and others here) on tattoos although we differ in our interpretation of this section in Leviticus (key in this verse is the statement, “for the dead”).
Why do we differ in our interpretation? For one, I bet you neglect to keep all the commands that surround this passage of Scripture. Do you wear clothing only made of one kind of material? If not, you have given an expiration date to Leviticus 19:19. You have also tainted yourself with the world. You have sinned. Do you eat meat with the blood still in it? How do you get your steaks cooked when you go out to eat? Are you 100% sure the blood of the animal you are about to eat has been drained? If not, you have given an expiration date to Leviticus 19:26.
Why is it that you can preach this one verse on tattoos to your fellow brothers and sisters but not the other laws that surround it? Your argument would lead one to believe that all of these laws would not have an expiration date, right? If you say some of them do, why some and not all?
I’ve spent a good amount of time studying the different aspects of the person using the Bible. Feelings, emotions, etc. fall under the mind of the person. The heart is the place where choice and will happen. Rom 12:2 (thanks for mentioning it) is an awesome passage because the only way transformation of the heart can happen is via transformation of the mind. God the Spirit goes through our mind to reach our heart. Rom 1 gives us the background for why we should start with the mind in transformation because it is the aspect of the person where we first strayed away from Him. I still ponder this verse and love hearing it.
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Marking up your body — the Temple of the Holy Spirit — may perhaps be permissible, but is it profitable?
What does it do to your testimony?
Are you building up Christ’s Kingdom?
Are you sullying Christ or His bride with your testimony?
Have you made (with your ‘art’) anyone who looked at it react with disdain and think “Oh yeah, those ‘Christians’ ya know they’re just as worldly as the next guy… look at that thing. Did they just get out of jail? I thought they were supposed to be different.”
And before you bring a railing accusation against me, FYI my wife has one from before either of us was saved. So calm down, o.k.?
I’m just concerned that the world thinks it’s biblically acceptable for a professing Christian to apply permanent body art. You defile your body and again I ask, what does it do to your testimony?
You spend a lot of time talking about your heart… remember our hearts are exceedingly wicked — hardly the gauge a Christian should use.
It’s funny… you seem to comprehend God’s intended message in Leviticus about being separate from the world:
… but then you just wanna jump right in and be like the world by marking up your body (again: the Temple of the Holy Spirit) to defile it JUST LIKE THE WORLD DOES.
Unfortunate.
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“…And then there’s those whose worldviews and doctrines send up red flags: Both Rich Mullins’ intention to be baptized into the apostate Roman Catholic Church (before his unexpected death)…”
This is a claim perpetuated by the RCC–but denied by Rich Mullins’ family. Stating such things as “fact”, though unable to fully substantiate, surmounts to gossip.
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Jeff H put that nicely.
There is NO law against tattoos to the believer. ALL things are lawful but not all things are expedient.
We have the priviledge of denying ourselves that which is not withholden from us to glorify the Lord in the purity of our testimony. Sure the world has some nutty expectations that abundant life in Christ Jesus is all about a bunch of pious little rules we gotta follow. They’re the world, they’re not supposed to have godly wisdom.
It’s like smoking. No law against it. If it is sin to you, fine, weaker brother/sister in the faith, do not violate your conscience before God and the smoker should not lay a stumbling block before the weaker in the faith by smoking in their sight. But….
You know the world thinks christianity is a bunch of rules to follow (having no knowledge of sin or grace) and that smoking, by default, is one of those icky things christians have a rule against. There is the honor of Christ via our testimony and actions/words before a fallen world to consider more than our own freedom.
Is it wise (expedient) to tarnish my testimony before men just so I can smoke a cigarette, when I know the lost (and even some brethren) think that it’s an issue? Do I want to make it look as though my Lord has a Body of only ‘hyporites’ (as the world would see it)?
Is it wise when a brother/sister ‘rebukes’ me for smoking because I am ‘defiling’ the temple of the Holy Spirit to be a smart alec and remind them the physical laws were about the spiritual reality as Jesus plainly taught. It is wickedness that proceeds from the heart that defiles, not tobacco leaf smoke. But do I need to antagonize those whose consciences hold them in a tighter rein?
We need to consider several things in these issues that brethren debate.
1) Does this dishonor God or hinder my testimony?
2) Does this cause my brethren to stumble?
3) Do I glorify God in some measure, inwardly or outwardly in this thing?
4) Is this thing a snare unto me, am I a slave to it rather than Christ?
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Very well put Brian of the hill people and Jeff H.
Early in my walk with the Lord, I smoked cigarettes. I remember one particular day I was at work. I went to light a cigarette, and the janitor was standing there. I started talking to him {after I lit my ‘smoke’}. I ended up sharing the Gospel with him…you know what he said? Why are you smoking cigarettes if you’re a ‘Christian? {his tone dripped with accusing sarcasm}’ I felt a sinking feeling deep within my gut. It wasn’t long after that I started praying fervently for freedom from smoking. BUT, that particular day, my testimony for Christ was shot, worthless. That man didn’t hear a word I said, he was too busy seeing my own worldliness; there was no power in my testimony.
This is why I believe worldly things, like smoking, tattoos, drinking, etc. or harmful; they weaken your testimony for Christ.
Tattoos originated with pagan practices, which is another reason to avoid them. The book of Leviticus also speaks of the abomination of homosexuality, child sacrifice, etc. I do not think it wise to throw out the whole book, just because we are now under ‘grace’. Those who love the Lord will, as they grow, understand what is pleasing to Him. It isn’t a set of rules and regulations to follow, it is LOVE for Christ that prompts us to avoid certain worldly practices. As I stated in a previous comment, ‘I am not stating that a tattoo will cast you into hell, I am stating that a heart that has been changed by God will no longer desire tattoos, piercings, designer clothing, etc.’ This comes with maturity.
I do find this statement by Matthew Birch very telling, ‘I am now 32 years old and I regret getting the tattoo.’ I see life- transforming growth in this statement.
Lyn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This statement by T Sheets, ‘God the Spirit goes through our mind to reach our heart’ prompts me to recommend this- there is an excellent study on the heart, done by John MacArthur. I recommend it to you T Sheets; you can find it here, http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/2139_Strengthen-Your-Heart?q=heart
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Lynn,
Absolutely agree with you and had a very similar experience regarding the workplace. It does not matter that to me smoking was not inherently wrong. What shot through my conscience was that the unbeliever I was speaking to regarded me as a hypocrite because an unbeliever thinks we adhere to some code of pious rules for life. That’s just not a strong start.
We have to consider more than our freedom. Our freedom isn’t the penultimate flag to wave. The glory of our Master and the integrity of our testimony both rate higher than the exercising of our freedom.
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Unworthy1, could you please further explain why you feel as a Christian we should not desire designer clothing? I’m a bit confused. I have lots of designer clothing, does that mean I’m a bad person?
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I think what Lyn is getting at is not that designer clothing is evil in and of itself (in fact, she spoke of maturing in the faith, not a statement that wearing designer clothes is evil).
It is the purpose for which a believer desires them. If it is to flaunt self, that’s not mature, that is worldly. We’re to stand out in the world by love, faith, hope and righteous deeds that the Father predetermined we should do.
Furthermore, there is this to consider: our brothers and sisters the world over that we might help. Denying ourselves to share with them in the love of Christ. It used to be that the world noticed how the brethren loved each other. It really stood out. The brother who had more giving to the one who had less, since God is glorified in it, we are made to be faithful stewards in it, we are made to become more Christlike in it, etc.
I am no better than my brother in India being beaten bloody for his faithfulness to Christ or my brother in Liberia who has very little yet is still diligent in his faithfulness to preach the Good News. In fact, if anything, I feel like a sham in comparison to those whose faith is purified by their sufferings, who show the genuine character of their faith in Christ by them.
Should I be concerned that I am covered in the best of clothing I can obtain, or that my brother is covered in prayer and encouragement and support as God enables me to provide from what He has entrusted to me? It’s not a question of evil so much as one of maturing in the faith through sanctification. The cares of this world grow dim while the glory of the King of Glory grows brighter and ever more lovely in to my eyes.
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Well said, Brian of the Hill People. Priorities and appetites change as we mature in Christ.
A benchmark that I use with myself, my family, and friends: The Bible League can put a complete copy of the Bible into the hands of a brother in China or India for $4. How many Bibles is it worth to enjoy that nice meal or that fancy car, etc. We need to consider the ultimate need people have – the true Gospel of Christ that is contained in the Scriptures.
We should pray for those faithful folk who translate and transport Bibles around the world in all languages as well as those local folk whom God has saved and who have joy in proclaiming the Gospel to their countrymen.
Baubles and beads loose their luster when we look at things from the Lord’s perspective.
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Nicely put Brian.
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I guess maybe a better word other than “designer clothes” would be to desire “things” more than God. Most, I said most not all, people who wear designer clothes do wear them to be seen or to make an appearance and turn heads. I buy nice clothes because they last longer. I do not desire them by any means. I’m quite thrifty and probably spend less on most of my “designer clothes” than most people spend on clothes at Wal-Mart. Maybe labeling designer clothes as an unGodly thing just adds more “rules” to follow. I 100% agree that most people wear them for vain reasons, and that is wrong.
I want for people to know that I am God’s disciple by the love I show, not by how I’m dressed or the rules I tell them.
John 13:34″A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
People are searching for love. Ask every teenage girl what she wants…she wants to be loved. If we the church are not portraying a loving spirit towards these youngsters we will lose them because the world will show them love. We don’t have to accept or condone what they are doing. How many of us would be here if it weren’t for someone showing us the Love of God? I sure know I wouldn’t be here without my youth pastor who “wore designer clothing” to fit in with us. Not once did he wear something with skulls or any representation of evil. He did it all tastefully and taught me and 100s of other teenagers the true love of God and that standing on His words was the only way to live.
Don’t get me wrong, people need to know Biblical truths, but maybe we all, me included, need to teach them more lovingly. By lovingly I do not mean watered down…the full truth but told in love not tyrantly. Does anyone agree?
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Yes I agree we need to reach and show others love. I also believe the love that the majority show is not Godly love. We must be honest in bringing the gospel to others, and proclaim the whole counsel of God. Most churches consider this judgmental and harsh. In the end if Father God does not open us to the gospel and then give us the faith to believe it we won’t be saved. I do not look at Christianity as rules. I don’t do a lot of things I used to do because I am so grateful, amazed and humbled by the price Jesus paid for my salvation. I know my heart, Paul claimed chief of sinners, I think I come close. I want to know Him more and serve Him. The more I
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I pressed enter before I finished.
know Him the less appealing the things of the world become. My hearts desire now is to hear. ” Well done, good and faithful servant. Yes we do need love, ask any teenage girl, or anyone for that matter what sort of love they want. It would be more in line with fairy tales or Hollywood type love.
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It may be possible that they want Hollywood Fantacy style love, but they don’t know what true love is. I’m not saying don’t tell them God’s ways…I guess I’m saying in general we need to be more loving. There are loads of verses in the Bible about loving one another and letting them know us by our love. When we are telling them the word how it is we should definitely be doing it in love. Yes I know we wouldn’t tell them if we didn’t love them, but sometimes people in the world perceive Christians as less loving than the world because we are always telling them what they are doing wrong and never telling them about God’s love. We never tell them about his grace and how he offeres forgiveness if we will truly repent. Yes they need to know what they are doing wrong, but maybe it will be more efficient to get people opened up to the ideas of God by showing them and telling them of his love, then sharing the in depth message.
When we see someone all tattood and pierced up are we being more harsh and telling them how being of the world is wrong and will send us to hell, or are we asking them how their day is going and if there’s anything we can do for them? I would be much more receptive to anyone if they asked me about my day and had small talk before they started telling me Biblical truth. That is the same of 98% of the rest of the people.
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I want to address some of the comments on dress, appearance, beliefs etc. mentioned on this board. A little context first:
My wife and I are preparing to leave as missionaries amongst the Cham Muslims of Cambodia. Many of the Cham men have beards, wear sarongs, do not eat pork, do not drink alcohol, etc. The women, wear at least 3/4 length sleeves, cover their heads and do most of the manual labor in the community. My wife and I are going to adopt many of these same customs as we live and work in their community. Are we legalistic? No. But as Paul says, we are going to become like these people so that through Christ’s love, many (we pray) will come become followers of Isa. Contextualization is presenting the Biblical gospel without cultural baggage. As Muslims become followers of Christ are we going to force them to change all their ways? By no means! Part of missions if taking the local culture and seeking redemptive analogies that they already practice and belief that we can use to point them to Jesus Christ. Jesus does not care about outward appearance. He cares more about the beauty of diversity in how he has uniquely created the nations of the world. Tribes in Africa have body piercings and tattoos. Do they burn them off and stop piercing their skin when they become followers of Christ? By no means! That just makes them something that they are not and distorts the gospel into something foreign. Man looks at outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.
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ZS,
Amen! It has been the work of Satan for missionaries to export culture in the clothing of Christianity. As people are saved – by God’s grace and not by any man’s work – each one will be convicted of sin. Clothing (aside from some extremes) and food are not issues we need to “correct”. We need to proclaim the Gospel and provide the Word of God and pray for teh Holy Spirit to save and reform the elect.
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I agree ZS. Thank you for your post.
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ZS,
May God bless you for your obedience to Christ’s Great Commission. My family will pray for you as you bring the Words of eternal life, calling men out of darkness and bringing them into the Light of Christ’s Gospel.
All glory to God,
– Jeff H
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ZS said Man looks at outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.
Manfred said Amen! It has been the work of Satan for missionaries to export culture in the clothing of Christianity.
Absolutely to both! That is why I have said for years that the three-piece suit has done more to keep people away from church than nearly anything else. When people look down their noses because a that person doesn’t wear “just the right” clothes, they show their own lack of humility. And who wants to step foot in a church where people are going to judge them because they can’t afford a suit?
I teach a men’s Sunday School class at our church plant in the projects in Knoxville. While I don’t walk in with my “pants on the ground,” I also don’t “dress up.” In fact, the most that I–and the fellow who does the preaching–will do is a polo shirt and a pair of jeans. Some of the people that attend wear whatever they got out of the donations to the local community center. How are we gonna look if we’re standing there teaching the poor while we’re wearing one set of clothes that cost more than most people spend on food for a month?
On the other hand, there is another (very affluent, legalistic, fire-breathing, KING-JAMES-ONLY!!) church that will (LITERALLY) turn away a person who doesn’t wear a suit and tie. In fact, one of the fellows that comes on Sundays (and every chance he gets)–a former gun-toting drug dealer–told us about the time this other church invited his father, just so long as he changed out of his overalls and put on the suit they gave him. Needless to say, the dad never darkened their doorstep.
Our focus when preparing for church should not be to out-fancy our neighbor, and we must always be careful to avoid judging people because they don’t spend enough on their clothes.
My 2¢
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ZS,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and more importantly, your heart’s desire to go and serve on the foreign field. Truly the fields are white unto harvest. I commend you for your willingness to adapt to the culture you will be serving in. Kind of reminds me of the stories of Hudson Taylor!
I would like to make one comment though in response to your notes about tribes in Africa having body piercings and tattoos. I have missionary friends throughout Africa and have ministered in West Africa myself. I have spoken with people who have been saved and many of them when asked would tell you why they got the body piercings and the tattoos. Most of it has not so much to do with cultural and ethnic diversity as it does with the religions in which they are entrapped. Many of the piercings and tattoos are forced on them during initiation rites as children grow into adulthood.
Having studied cross-cultural missions extensively, I recognize as well that not all fall into this category, but many do – particularly in Africa. If you were to ask, you would find they regret what occurred before they placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is vital to fully understand the culture in which you are serving to ensure that no taboos are broken and thus cause embarrassment and in turn may hurt the cause of Christ because of poor study or understanding.
Every blessing,
The Desert Pastor
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Hey Desert Pastor,
Thank you for your wisdom and insight. You are spot-on that many people in Africa do partake in rituals and ceremonies that are not pleasing to the LORD, and therefore are in bondage to curses, spiritual forces, etc. Great point that many of these tattoos, piercings, fetishes are linked to those rites.
I echo your sentiment about how important it is to understand culture; afterall, that is drives people in their worldview and perspective of the events of life. As westerners, we must clothe ourselves with humility and take on the mentality of a child (as a learner and not a knower) as we live and serve in cultures very different than our own. Only as we begin to learn and grow in our understanding (and love) of people will we be given an opportunity to see what parts of the culture could be used to point to Jesus and which parts must be modified/removed to fully serve Christ. In Indonesia, after a child is born, a ceremony is performed in part to protect the child from the evil forces and some of the forms used hold meanings that are contrary to the Christian life. A Christian couple took this ceremoney and turned it into a blessing for their child. After conferring with some Indonesia believers, they used some of the forms and introduced some others. It was an incredible opportunity to bond with the culture and take part in a very special ceremony (as rites/rituals are much more emphasized than in the west), which brought honor and praise to Jesus!
As a sidebar, isn’t it interesting how we have adopted once pagan symbols as the Christmas Tree and the practice of having bridesmaids at a wedding (to protect the bride from people with the evil eye) into our normal lives? I find this fascinating and have great hope of being able to use cultural forms in Cambodia to point to Christ.
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last time i glanced at this (on my phone) there were only 31 comments-
I once again must express a little frustration at the pretended zeal expressed in the comments.
Can we all not agree that there are true believers who are uninformed concerning Catholicism? Did Lloyd-Jones charge John Stott and J.I. Packer as heretics because of their desire to find common ground (though it’s OBVIOUS they WERE in error)? I don’t know about you but I’ve come across such people time and time again, and it’s quite a long task to teach them how conflicting Catholicism truly is.
Of course that’s not to say that a ‘true’ Catholic or teacher of it, is a true Christian, to that I could NEVER subscribe because they indeed follow a different christ!
As far as the debating with Jason and yes i have to call it debating, for the tone is quite disturbing. There doesn’t seem to be an inkling of grace concerning the reality that there are many Arminians that will enter into heaven. Granted a classic Arminian does indeed profess a salvation by works, but aside from scholarship the majority of people who call themselves Arminian don’t really fit the description. Many believers say they hold to one thing, but when they testify, when they pray, when they worship they do so as a true Calvinist would!
As to dress, music, and accessories some of the comments sound more like (Nazarene-like) Christian perfectionism, there seems to be a hint of EXTREME regeneration going on here, and as I alluded to before a view which brothers like Washer, MacArthur, and Voddie would never subscribe to. Now perhaps these comments are by people who NEVER counsel downcast believers or preach the gospel to the lost OR maybe because this is a blog people feel real BOLD and speak in absolutes though in person they are much more graceful, I don’t know but we should be a little distrubed when our standards for conversion exceed Edwards, Ryle, Spurgeon, Pink, and the Puritans.
Wesley and his followers by Iain Murray would be a great read. It must be kept in mind that many ‘experts’ are men who have long ago rejected the faith and who have no desire to be objective but wish to be admired and even subvert the gospel of Christ.
blessings
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Are you kidding?
Not according to my Bible!
What?
I mean really… What are you talking about?
An Arminian is really saved because they are really Calvinist?
That’s gibberish, seriously.
wHaT?
Not so. We are admonishing Christians to be separate from the world, even though they are physically IN the world.
That is just plain wise, biblical counsel.
No one here suggested that dressing differently will add to one’s salvation. That would be blasphemous.
But — as you’ve seen from Scripture — we ARE to dress, speak, and act differently than the world.
No. It’s simple:
1. Repentance: turning from sin, turning to God.
2. Faith in Christ ALONE for salvation.
That’s it.
Preaching or teaching anything else is to bring a false gospel.
The only way Arminians can come is if they leave their works at the door.
5 Solas,
– Jeff H
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jeff,
i am a little resistant to answer because you ignored the bulk of what I said. in fact what I said is consistent with spurgeon, washer, whitefield, packer, jc ryle, and many more concerning their attitude towards opposing brothers in Christ.
Who are these mean spirited people?
As Washer says: there are a lot of Arminians who live past their theology but not a lot of Calvinists who live up to theirs!
that brings to mind another quote from our brother: when someone becomes a calvinist they should lock him up so he doesn’t hurt anyone!
My banner IS Christ!
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I am not a Calvinist, and I am not an Arminian. I am a Christian. I follow God’s word. I do not look to another persons interpretation of what God’s word says, I read my Bible and pray. I go to church and I’m rather active in our church. Instead of focusing on religion and “why mine is right and why others are wrong” I focus on my relationship with God. Do ya’ll really think Calvinists are the only ones to make it into heaven? If so, please tell me where that is in the Bible.
And…I’m not just focused on myself either. Everywhere I go I make a point to reach out to everyone. The saved and the not saved. I don’t care what people look like, I love them.
Julius I agree…people could be a little bit nicer in here. We are all people hopefully with the same goal…Heaven as our home. Stating our differences is great, but let’s show a little love and not be so harsh. That’s definitely not the way to get anyone to agree with you or think about listening to what you have to say.
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I don’t have the background really of what this site is all about or what group of Christians it is meant for – I only stumbled across it while surfing the web.
Based on the critical nature of many of the posts here, I assume my post and character will be attacked for even posting…
I only wanted to point out that it is those Christians who are so extreme, rigid and intolerant that turn people away from religion all together. I myself turned away from God for 10 years as a teenager because of attitudes similar to many of those projected on this site. I felt that if Christianity meant being so unkind to your fellow man, I wanted nothing to do with it. And then I heard other disenchanted individuals cite Leviticus as a reason to disregard Christianity and I couldn’t have been more in agreement.
After 10 years of having given up on hope and God it has been quite the interesting journey to turn around. I appreciate that Jason pointed out that Leviticus was written as law to be followed before Jesus’ death, the ultimate sacrafice. This was something I, myself needed to learn before I could ever trust in Christianity again. While I may not have the surplus of biblical knowledge that you all have, there are some things I do know. I may have left God behind for some time, but he never left me. Despite my problems and imperfections, I know that God has always been with me – he has taken care of me and ultimately lead me back to him.
I thank God everyday for bringing me back through a series of events so complex, only he could have orchestrated them. I pray every day for forgiveness for all those years that I had abandoned him. I see his presence in my life and do believe he forgives my sins. I ask him to fill my heart so that I may live better. I ask for his guidance in all areas of my life.
As I have re engaged in Christianity, begun the arduous task of reading, comprehending and living the bible, I am in awe of how sinful I truely am. Most days there are many “sin-alerts” that go off in my brain as I automatically and emotionally react to my external environment. Being more conscious of my own sin has led me to be more conscious of others’ sin as well.
My point is that none of us are perfect. We are human, and therefore we are sinners. American society, in general, glorifies worldly possessions. I guess in my mind, I don’t understand why the writer of this article is spending time attacking musicians (human musicians, therefore inherently NOT perfect and sinful) who reach out and appeal to a younger generation glorifying God’s message. It seems to me there are far greater evils to confront here on earth.
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Is preaching Grace — without the Law first — loving?
No. It is not.
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There has to be a combination of Grace and the law. None of us would have any hope without grace. We are all here because of His grace…His grace to forgive us of our sins when we truly repent. Telling someone how they are doing everything wrong, but not telling them about God’s way or his forgiveness and grace would be a disservice to that person.
Cassie, I applaud you for your boldness. I agree with you sister. I do have one word of encouragement for you, you do not have to pray every day for forgiveness for the years you walked away from Him. I’m assuming you repented of all of that when you came back to Him. When He forgives us, the wrong we’ve repented of is gone. Look at this: Psalm 103:12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Don’t live in guilt and regret, instead be thankful for God’s grace, mercy, and forgiveness!
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JElaine,
And… no one here suggested doing so.
You seem to have your hand wrapped so tightly around that rock you want to throw that you’re not even listening to what has been said.
We have taken a cooler tone than John the baptizer or even Lord Jesus did, calling those in error “brood of vipers”, “hypocrites”, “blind guides”, “whitewashed tombs”, and so on.
Are you more loving than they are… or less?
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I would encourage all within this discussion to remember, knowledge puffs up.
The statement that ‘according to my bible’ Arminians will not enter heaven is a dangerous proposition to make; and I do not say that as an Arminian.
yes, there are elements of Arminian theology which are incorrect. No, those judgments aren’t yours to make insofar as eternal judgment goes.
You can be 100% right, and 100% wrong.
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JElaine,
I would still like to hear from you concerning your mischaracterization of our posts, and in particular, my question concerning the lengths Jesus and John the baptizer went to warn those who were in error?
___________________________________________________________________
Martin,
You are correct, and thank you for pointing out my error.
I have read through the Bible studiously as a Christian, and find that the Arminian position is untenable when confronted with the truth of God’s nature.
Arminianism brings God low, and elevates man. This is blasphemous, as I and others here have stated.
Nevertheless, my desire to be expedient is no excuse for my ham-handed treatment of God’s word or His Character.
I ask for the Lord’s forgiveness, and yours (all whom I have offended) as well.
In Christ,
– Jeff H
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When did I say that you suggested this? My comment was in response to your previous post:
“Is preaching Grace — without the Law first — loving?
No. It is not.”
All I was stating was there has to be a combination of both of these. Yes people need to know their wrongs, and God’s grace and forgiveness. I think you may have misunderstood my intentions. Sorry if you did.
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My comment on designer clothing was,I am afraid, taken to the extreme. I never meant to imply such was sinful, I meant to say such can be if the motive is wrong. Anything can be sinful if the motive is wrong. The heart is revealed by what the mouth says, and the actions produced. That doesn’t mean our clothes are sinful, unless, of course, our motive is.
I hope this somewhat clarifies. I pray others will not take one thing I’ve said out of context, blow it up and run with it; this usually leads to much confusion!
Lyn
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Yeah, no kidding! That’s why it’s called the Gospel.
I was replying to your:
See, no one here ever suggested doing that, so why did you even bring it into the discussion.
Your whole post earlier set us up as uncaring and unloving, while you painted yourself as the caring one. In fact your whole post was dripping with self-righteousness and self-importance:
I don’t do this… I’m not that… me, me, me.
Have you left any room for God and what He commands in His Word?
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Jeff, you have no idea who I am or what I’m about. It’s very hard to really get the feel for someone from a few posts. If you did know me, you would know that was not my heart to appear that way. I’m sorry if I offended you. My whole life is dedicated to reaching souls for Christ. Being in my mid twenties I know how people my age react to certain things. Yes, our generation is a little messed up. I’m thankful to have been surrounded by Christian friends and a great Bible teaching church growing up, or I would be right in the middle of all the partying. Ya’ll were sharing how you helped people so I thought I would. Is that not what everyone else was doing? It’s just that you disagree with the way I do things. Which is fine with me. I don’t need any person’s approval.
Oh and my quote that you keep reposting: “Telling someone how they are doing everything wrong, but not telling them about God’s way or his forgiveness and grace would be a disservice to that person.”
You said right before it that preaching grace before the law was not loving. I agree with you. You asked it as a question and then said no it’s not. I took that as you assuming that I tought grace alone and not law because you said teaching grace first without law is unloving. I never said I tought grace without law, and I never said and/or suggested that you taught law without grace.
The bad thing about reading someone’s response on here is the interpretation of it. One sentence can mean different things to everyone who reads it because everyone will have a different take on it, and different opinions on the people who post.
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When did I say that you suggested this? My comment was in response to your previous post:
"Is preaching Grace — without the Law first — loving?
No. It is not."
All I was stating was there has to be a combination of both of thesw. Yes pdople need to know their wrongs, and God's grace and forgiveness. I think you may have misunderstood my ijtentions. Sorry if you did.;
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JElaine,
Fair enough.
I was merely responding to your accusations against us:
Part of ‘defending and contending’ is focusing on why false doctrine is false. Perhaps, as you mature in your Christian walk, you will begin to see how important that is. The Bible is replete with admonishments to weed out error in the Church.
You accuse us of not being nice.
You accuse us of being harsh and unloving.
So, I was merely responding to your accusations, as I have already said.
It doesn’t matter what your intended tone MAY have been, when your words are quite clear.
Shall we move on?
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We should move on. That is a great idea. I just saw that Amolsch copied and reposted my earlier comment but with errors. That is not me and I do not know who it is.
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Amolsch is SPAM
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David Crowder looks like a fuzzed-out, burnt Q-Tip. And in the second photo, he looks like he’s channeling Bob Marley (or Curious George). Oh, yeah – he sort of sounds like a sheep bleating when he sings.
Since the theological discussion seems to be over (good points, by the way), my totally biased comments have no biblical warrant whatsoever. He’s just one of the CCM darlings who’s riding the “modern worship” music wave until the next new musical trend comes along. Will he be as adored when his fame runs out and he’s performing at proms? Will he garner more fame when “Rolling Stone” does a special issue, interviewing him and Jennifer Knapp, to show the “broad spectrum” of how Christian music has come a long way? Stay tuned!
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Dennis Gibbony,
Your comment was not approved because you attacked various posters here, including myself, by twisting our words – you did NOT use scripture to back your attacks. Your opinions don’t hold water to God’s word. Those of us who’ve responded to erroneous postings here have backed our responses with SCRIPTURE. You have chosen to take God’s word out of context, as many who defend hucksters like Crowder do, and made for yourself a ‘graven image’; you’ve created a ‘god of your understanding’. Your ‘god’ is all love, accepts anything, and would never do harm. That is not the God of the Bible.
I recommend to you this link concerning ‘decisional salvation’—http://repentandbelieve.net/category/false-teaching/
Your comments will not be approved here because the agenda you push isn’t biblical.
May God be merciful to you.
Lyn
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Oh, I can’t tell if Crowder disqualifies himself as a Christian just by attending a Catholic interview nor admiring or being influenced by Saint Francis of Assissi. This post is about bashing CCM and not Crowder’s Crowded theology.
I am being puzzled by Crowder’s shrouded theology and standpoint on controversial Christian topics. But this is the wrong post to begin with.
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Jess:
No, Crowder does not “disqualify himself as a Christian just by attending a Catholic interview nor admiring or being influenced by Saint Francis of Assissi (sic)”. Obviously, this post is not saying that.
But according to the documentation given, Crowder is a man who: 1) claims to be a Christian artist (which therefore implies he is a Christian, or a follower of the Jesus Christ of the Bible). Yet: 2) he credits Catholic traditions and writings (a huge quantity of works religion, and un-biblical/extra-biblical teachings and practices) as influential in FORMING his belief system. And, 3) He promotes un-biblical mysticism.
If you’ve studied and understood the teachings of the Bible, Catholic tradition and teaching, and mysticism, you’d have to say his is a pretty crowded theology.
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I actually can’t believe I’m posting on this site. After spending nearly 30 minutes reading these posts I felt a little ashamed. If we all stood back and took a long view of what the world looks like today, what our youth look like it would be hard to handle. Christ has a special affection for children. Youth ministry in American today seems to represent a large boat filling with water and several people trying desperately to scoop it back out before the boat sinks. In other words it’s not really working as a whole.
The intensity for truth by all those who have posted on this site is commendable. I just want to challenge you with two simple verses. These are irrefuetable and unmistable in meaning. “…Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, mind, and soul…secondly love your neighbor as yourself.” It’s completely conceivable that if each person who seeks after God devoted every aspect of their lives to these two verses the world would change drastically. I would even go as far as to say we would see a vary glorious and color parade of Christians dancing a billion different dances down the strait and narrow path to Heaven.
God Bless all of you and I truly hope that you are able to enjoy a life defined by love and the power of the Holy Spirit.
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WOW! This was better than reading a novel! You guys should put these comments in a book and publish it…whew!
Now I can see why the world is going to hell in a hand basket. Too many so-called Christians who don’t know any better, are dumb-founded over the Scriptural logic of the truly saved. Guys you won’t convince them. They are rebellious and they will have it their way come hell or high water, and unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how honest you want to be), the first will be eternal while the latter might knock some sense into them before it’s too late. it’s like knocking square pegs into round holes…just stop. God will kill them, separate them and cast them into hell, let’s get on with spreading the Gospel.
In Christ’s Trunk,
Paul
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Reading these posts sadden me. All of you are so caught up in what kind of music is “right” that you miss the point. The point is WORSHIP!! The bible is full of references of singing with INSTRUMENTS!!
2 Chronicles 5:13
The trumpeters and musicians joined in unison to give praise and thanks to the LORD. Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, the singers raised their voices in praise to the LORD and sang: “He is good; his love endures forever.” Then the temple of the LORD was filled with the cloud,
Psalm 33:3
Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.
Psalm 68:25
In front are the singers, after them the musicians; with them are the young women playing the timbrels.
Psalm 71:22
I will praise you with the harp for your faithfulness, my God; I will sing praise to you with the lyre, Holy One of Israel.
Colossians 3:16
Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.
Now I’m pretty sure trumpets, cymbals, harps, lyres and whatever else they used in the bible was invented by sinful people. But these instruments were (and still are) used to worship God. So who are ANY OF YOU to say that it is wrong to use the electric guitar, the bass, the drums or any other instrument to worship God?
As far as David Crowder’s interview, have any of you found traditions or writings from someone who isn’t part of your religion? What about secular writers? From what I read, all of you who are upset that Crowder would draw inspiration from a Catholic are those people who believe that your denomination is the only one that is right, and all the other denominations lead to hell. People like you make me sick!! Denominations hurt the church, because of people who are against the other denominations. What if we all realized that the different denominations (for the most part) believe in Salvation through belief in Jesus. I believe we wouldn’t have crap like this article written by egotistical “christians” looking to hate on other denominations.
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Borntoworship87 ~
You must not have really read the piece because you would have noticed that Pilgrim or anyone else was not attacking the use of musical instruments. What they were going after are those who profess Christ and yet follow the ways of the world and false religious systems. There was nothing about denominations or anything of the sort. The thing is, if you truly knew what the Roman Catholic system was like, you would find what David Crowder was doing an abomination. It seems like you are claiming that we should not judge and yet you were judging others in this piece by calling them egotistical. Where’s your proof of this?
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David T –
It looks like you didn’t really read much of anything. The author of this article is essentially claiming that David Crowder is not a “true” Christian because he did an interview with a Catholic magazine, and draws inspiration from a Catholic figure who is not absorbed by “stuff.” Based on his answer, it seems to me that Crowder feels that he has too much stuff, or is too attached to his stuff, and is inspired by St. Francis. Why is this such a big deal? That is where I get the egotistical thought. I have run into people, even friends, who have looked down on me because I went to a church of a different denomination than theirs. I perceive that the author of this article feels the same way about denominations other than his, even though he doesn’t come out and say it. I would say that the author, and anyone who agrees with his article, cannot draw any inspiration from any figures anywhere except Jesus. For them to be inspired by a motivational speaker, an athlete, or anyone else who might have any kind of opinion that differs from the teachings of the bible would be a gross mistake on their parts, as obviously it is “wrong” to be inspired by one Catholic figure who maybe did some things wrong in his life. Forget the fact that no is perfect. If we can only follow people who do/did everything perfect, than I guess anything written by the Apostle Paul is wrong too. 😛
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BornToWorship87 ~
Your answer is not surprising for a lot of today’s professing Christians.
I ask you about David Crowder….How can someone say that they are a believer in Christ and yet seek to be inspired by someone who is an Apostate and served an Apostate religion like Catholicism? Too often we are wanting to proclaim someone as a “Christian” because they use they name of Christ but want to overlook their fruits. Drawing inspiration from someone of an Apostate religion shows to me that their fruits are more in line with that religion than with the things of Christ. I will add to this conversation by saying I do not do, nor have I seen Pilgrim, CD, 4Pointer, Manfred, or many others who comment on here come close to endorsing any denomination. I can not speak for them, but I can speak for myself in saying that I do not endorse any denomination. I am Christian first and foremost. That’s it. I am a child of the Most High.
Are you saying that we must be inspired by sinful men and women AS well as by Jesus Christ? I am someone who enjoys listening to the words of John MacArthur, Paul Washer, Voddie Baucham (I apologize if I spelled his name wrong), Bob DeWaay, and others. I enjoy their teachings on the things of the Bible. I do not find “inspiration” in any form for these men except in that they desire to serve the Lord. They desire to serve Him in the way that the Bible tells us to. I do not see David Crowder doing the same by saying someone who worships a false system is their inspiration.
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David T:
So from what I understand, you believe that David Crowder is a heathen because he has found some inspiration from a Catholic figure?
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Dear BornToWorship87:
Where you err in your defense of Mr. Crowder is that you seem to associate Romanism with being merely a denomination of Christianity. If this is the case, then I recommend that you study more about what Rome really believes and teaches. Additionally, check out a great audio message on the truths of Roman Catholicism by John MacArthur on this post, and read Brother Michael’s testimony of coming out of Rome here.
Additionally you err by the means of minimization. Mr. Crowder wasn’t simply influenced in passing by some Roman Catholic as you are banking your whole defense on (like in your own words “he has found some inspiration from a Catholic figure”). It’s a lot deeper than that. Read his words again, carefully:
MUCH of the CATHOLIC TRADITIONS were INFLUENTIAL in the FORMATION of HIS FAITH. Not some Catholic figure, but MUCH of Catholic Tradition.
Notice also, he did not say that his faith was formed by the truths of the Bible, nor by Jesus Christ Himself. No, it was Catholic traditions that helped form whatever faith it is that he has today.
You can try to minimize what he said and back peddle on behalf of him all day long, but his own words betray him and your defense of him.
You (and other defenders of Mr. Crowder) further err by minimization when you employ the “just” card.
He was JUST influenced by a Roman Catholic.
and
He JUST sang a prayer on his album from a Roman Catholic.
and
He JUST gave an interview with a Roman Catholic group whose ministry is “dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary” (not Jesus Christ).
and
He JUST authored a “contemplative-promoting book, Praise Habit (referring to the habits worn by Catholic nuns).”
and
He JUST participated in a contemplative/emergent conference with the likes of Leonard Sweet, Chuck Fromm, Sally Morgenthaler, Brennan Manning, Marva Dawn, Todd Hunter, and others.
How much smoke does there need to be for you to admit that there’s a fire? Unless, of course, you see nothing wrong with fire.
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David T.
You are very quick to judge based on one persons opinion. Whoever wrote this article is mistaken and misinformed. Here is what research and common sense have revealed.
The “Roman Catholic” prayer that Crowder sings on the Illuminate album is the song “O Praise Him.” This song is essentially a contemporary paraphrase of the Hymn “All Creatures of Our God and King.” That Hymn is a paraphrase of said prayer. With that in mind, you (and the author of this article) are saying that every church that has ever sang that hymn is subscribing to the teachings of the Roman Catholic church. If I had to guess, that would be pretty much every church in America.
You keep getting hung up on the fact that someone was influenced by a Roman Catholic. Saint Francis sought to live a Christ-like lifestyle. Was he perfect, NO! But who is? If it is wrong to be inspired by someone living a Christ-like lifestyle, than I don’t want to be right.
I own the book Praise Habit, and am currently reading said book. The book makes a brief reference to the habits that Nuns wear, but that is not the basis of the book. When Crowder mentions the Nuns’ habits, he talks about how they can be seen and identified from a long ways away. Crowder than states that our Praise to God should be equally obvious. Are you familiar with the term “Analogy?” Here is the dictionary definition: a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.
Yes, he JUST did an interview with a Catholic magazine. The magazine asked him (probably loaded) questions, and he answered said questions. I suppose that its just the worst thing ever that his new music video was featured on NBC’s “Today Show” as well? I mean, that’s secular TV. How dare he! Give me a break!
The Catholic teachings WERE (Past tense) He did not ever say that he actively pursuing and following Roman Catholic teachings. Your logic implies that anyone who grew up Catholic and then converted to Christianity would also be a terrible person. FALSE!
I won’t pretend that I know all of the names from this conference that Crowder was at, and I don’t have time to research all of them. However, for anyone to say that participating in a conference with them is wrong, is laughable! Especially you David. Paul Washer takes scripture out of context. Perhaps you’ve heard of his “Shocking Youth Message?” Here is a link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ The part I am talking about starts at about the 35 minute mark. After reading Matthew 7:21, and I quote: “Do you know what your profession of faith in Jesus Christ is worth? Absolutely nothing!” Am I the only who sees a problem with that? He lacks context. 1 John 1:9 says “If you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord. And believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” Paul Washer doesn’t believe this.
John MacArthur can’t decide what he thinks of Jesus. His views on Jesus have changed. Read this: http://www.atruechurch.info/macarthur.html Jesus doesn’t change, why would anyone’s view of Jesus need to change? I think both of these guys should look into investing in Millstones (Matthew 18:6)
Crowder seeks to worship The Living God, and help the church do the same. To suggest anything else is absolutely ridiculous!
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BorntoWorship87:
You accuse me of being quick to judge and yet you judge John MacArthur falsely with a link to a website that is run by a man who desires his followers subject themselves to him? Atruechurch.info is nothing but a heretical website. Darwin Fish can not be used as a reliable source (if you want to truly see what he is like, go to bing.com and type in Phil Johnson & Darwin Fish. There you will see what Darwin is truly like. The spirit of the Lord does not live in him).
Now, back to David Crowder and Roman Catholicism. You have every right to say what you want to say, even if your information is wrong. The RCC is an Apostate belief system. Anyone who desires use them as an “influence” in how to worship Christ is just opening up the door to all sorts of evil.
Okay, now that I have responded, please respond first to Pilgrim’s reply to you before you reply to mine. If I see a response from you towards me before you respond to his….I will not get involved in this discussion anymore and start doing what Titus 3:9-11 says to do.
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LOL! I never thought I’d see the day when someone quoted Darwin Fish as an authority! If you think Mr. Fish’s thoughts on MacArthur are a hoot (he’s an apostate former member of GCC), then you’ll really get a shock out of his opinions about God – you can see them here.
In Him,
CD
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Dear BTW87:
I am the one who wrote this article that you’ve been relentlessness railing against, and I’m the one who left the last comment that you’ve mistakenly ascribed to David T.
I’m not “hung up” on someone being influenced by a Roman Catholic. Please quit erecting this straw man, knocking it down, then dancing around the pile of hay as if you’ve just defeated Goliath.
More on your straw man in a moment, but first let me say that I understand people can be influenced by other people from all walks of life. But what is the substance of that influence? Being motivated or influenced by Mother Teresa’s sacrifice for the poor is not necessarily bad in and of itself. However, being influenced by Mother Teresa in the realm of her theology is very, very bad, because she adhered to the Romish gospel, not the biblical gospel, and Paul was very clear that those who preach any “other” gospel is anathema (Gal. 1).
Now, regarding your straw man, you keep downplaying Crowder’s comment of his Romish influence. On November 17th you said:
And on December 5th you said:
Are you purposely skewing Crowder’s quote and my critique, or are you genuinely misunderstanding them? You keep saying he was “inspired by one Catholic figure.” But Crowder said he was influenced by the Roman Catholic traditions themselves, not just a Roman Catholic man. if you’re going to engage in an argument, please be honest about the substance of that argument.
Allow me to quote Crowder once again so you can see it for yourself:
Crowder was not merely influenced by a Roman Catholic’s life (as you’re suggesting) but the very “traditions” and “writings” of Rome were “influential in [his] formation of faith.”
What if Crowder said the following:
Or
Or
Or
Or
Or
If you refuse to see the problem with this, BTW87, then I guess there’s really no point to continue this conversation. After all, BTW87, your latest comment accused David T of being “quick to judge” yet you had no problem calling me egotistical and pontificating about what I thought of denominations; none of which you truly know about me.
Then you judge Crowder as you defend him:
It sounds like you have some inner knowledge that he did this begrudgingly. Usually if entertainers don’t want to be interviewed, they simply decline.
You continue your defense of Crowder with:
Really? He sure did leave the reader with the impression that Romish writings and traditions were influential in the formation of his faith. He made no distinction that he has since abandoned that faith for Christianity. He sure makes it sound as if he’s referring to his current faith.
If Crowder had converted from Rome, then why would he return to this false religious system whence he came and give a warm interview telling how much that false faith he converted from was influential in forming his faith. He may not be a practicing Catholic, but he sure does blur the lines.
And finally, besides your comments littered with sarcasm, condescension, and one-way judgmentalism, you then stoop to defending Crowder by attacking men who are actually preaching the gospel of Christ (not just playing a guitar) simply because you don’t understand what they’re saying. Wow. With the example you’ve cited you would have to reject Jesus’ own words. He tells those who “professed with their mouths” that He is Lord to depart from Him (Matt. 7:21-23).
Ultimately I see no point in the furtherance of this conversation. You have chosen to side with an entertainer who hasn’t fully severed ties with Rome (or is returning to them) and you attack ministers of the gospel who are preaching Christ and Him crucified. Your true colors have come out and it isn’t pretty.
I should have suspected this conversation was only going to deteriorate further when you ended your November 16th comment with this gem:
I’m sorry to have wasted your time BTW87.
– Pilgrim
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BTW87,
Please pay heed to this: http://www.youtube.com/user/bzel333#p/u/11/i6tKtvKf-jU
Crowder’s heretical teaching is clear.
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At everyone:
I want to apologize for my conduct as I have posted comments and responses. I have not behaved as a Christian should, and for this I am ashamed.
At Pilgrim:
I am sorry to have insulted you on the several occasion that I did so. Such talk from me accomplishes nothing. I also want to apologize for my sarcasm (Which is one of my larger character flaws.)
At David T:
I would like to apologize to you as well for my mistreatment of you as we have been discussing. Again, I was not behaving in a Christ-like manor, and I regret this.
At Everyone:
I want to be completely civil in any further discussions that I take part in. I also want to say, it was completely foolish of me to attack John MacArthur based on one source that popped up in a google search, without finding more evidence to back that up, or looking into the source itself.
I want to give you all an idea of my background, as I hope that it will help everyone involved understand where I am coming from. I was raised Non-Denominational my entire life. I believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and died and rose again 3 days later so that all who believe in Him will have eternal life. I currently lead worship at a small Non-denominational church in my hometown. (This will be important in a little bit) If there is anything else I can answer, please just ask and I will be happy to tell you.
Since I am a worship leader, I am drawn to worship music, and I am fascinated by the people who write it. I am constantly trying to find Music from the likes of David Crowder, Paul Baloche, Lincoln Brewster, Chris Tomlin and many others. Recently, David Crowder hosted a conference in Waco for church musicians/worship leaders. I attended said conference, and came away inspired and challenged. I also came away with a lot of respect for David Crowder. His heart to see the church worship is incredible. I was also very impressed during a panel that they had about song-writing. At one point in the discussion, the conversation started to lean towards theology, at which point Crowder reminded them that they were not there to talk about theology. I was very pleased with this, as we all knew that the people on the panel had different views on some things, but we didn’t want to hear that.
All this being said, when I saw this article putting Crowder in the same boat as homosexuals and people who have renounced their Christian faith, I got a little bit fired up. Unfortunately, I also reacted without thinking, which made the discussion up to this point miserable.
With this in mind, I have a couple of questions.
1. What is the harm in Crowder doing an interview with a Roman Catholic magazine?
2. And specifically for Pilgrim: Have you read “Praise habit,” or did you come to your conclusion about it after reading reviews?
I need to do some research into some of this stuff as well, so that I can give better educated answers. I also understand if none of you want to post further because of whatever views you have of me up to this point. I would like to ask all of you for forgiveness, and I hope that all of us can move forward in a Christ-like fashion.
At Manfred:
That entire video is about John Crowder. We have been talking here about David Crowder. Am I missing something? I fail to see the connection.
God bless you all
BTW87
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I have not been part of this discussion, but might have something to offer here.
BorntoWorship87:
I was once as you are. I was deeply passionate about worship, but had nary a care about doctrine. I did not realize how I was being seduced, over time, by the beckoning fingers of Rome, through the ministries of such people as Rich Mullins, John Michael Talbot, Brennan Manning, and Brother Lawrence. I was nearly destroyed, in fact, my marriage was destroyed, and I am still reeling from the fallout 5 years later. Rome is a seducing influence, and many are being captivated by it’s charms, especiallly sensitive musicians who typically aren’t concerned about doctrinal issues. It does not suprise me that the panel you mentioned did not get into a doctrinal discussion, and that you were glad. But I will tell you now that you had better get serious about doctrine like your life depends on it, or you may find yourself facing an enemy you have no clue how to defend yourself from. I found myself facing this enemy, and believe me it is more deadly and demonic than most people realize. Please repent, my brother, of your idolatry of these worship leaders and song writers that you are so impressed with. No one is worthy of that kind of devotion except our Lord Jesus. And do some homework yourself on what’s hidden behind the curtain of Rome. You might be alarmingly surprised. Did you know that to become a Catholic, one is required to renounce one’s former faith? Think about that.
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BTW87 & others,
My apologies for getting the two Crowders confused. John is wilder in his theology (I think) and David is wilder in his appearance (most of the time). It can be confusing to the casual observer.
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My wife and I were in this environment once as well. All seem to change when she was the keyboardist at the High Powered Soccer Camp Sunday Service, where the “worship” team was asked to wear all the T shirts they were given throughout the week at the camp, which was five, and they were all different colours. They were told to put them all on, and when the worship leader gave the cue, they were to rip them off (the shirts were prepared of course). Then the leader told the women to wear a bathing suit underneath just in case they went down too far. Needless to say, it was needed. Everyone in the congregation had a good laugh over seeing the women’s unmentionables, and thought it was just good fun. My wife did not participate for obvious reasons and was subsequently ostracized for her “unsportsmanlike behaviour”. We left the church soon after that, after my wife had an argument with the new worship leader about his recommending the women singing to give their words more breath. She said we were to serenade Jesus, not seduce Him. I can guarantee that in most worship services today, no matter the country, if Jesus walked in and say down in the front row and watched with His eyes of holiness and fire, there would be a toning down of the music, the temple dancers clad in their skin tight outfits would run for clothes, and the electric guitarist would feel really embarrassed to play his really cool run that he had been working on all week…at least we would hope this would be the response…
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“Give their words more breath?” I’m not clear on what that means.
Yes, because Jesus Christ hates music that isn’t toned down and electric guitars. I read that just last week. “Cursed be music with a volume over 3 and receive not into thy fellowship he who would play an electrical instrument; such a man is worse than an apostate. (Hezekiah 24:7-8)”
My point is that in pursuit of righteousness, you should not presume to condemn things based on what you personally don’t like. And you should NEVER be presumptive enough to speak for Christ unless you can show where in the Bible it EXPLICITLY states what you are claiming that Christ would do. Stick to what the Bible says; there’s enough there. (Ecclesiastes 7:16)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Now that my response to that is over, let’s get back to Chowder’s theological issues, which is what this thread is supposed to be about
BTW: The issue is not that Chowder finds inspiration in a Catholic figure, nor appreciates a particular person. Chris Rock is a very talented comedian and a lot of what he says makes a lot of sense; my recognizing that makes me neither vulgar nor a comedian. The issue isn’t even that Chowder’s worldview has been influenced by Catholic traditions. The problem is that Chowder speaks of how the traditions influenced him and makes no mention of how his beliefs have changed since, giving the implication that they have not and that he still holds Catholicism to be true.
As for doing an interview with Life Teen, that is a problem because the magazine exists to promote Catholicism; hence, everything in it is meant to portray Rome in a positive light. I would not expect them to do an interview with John MacArthur, for for that matter, Marilyn Manson. They are NOT going to have any message that would make them look good.
This isn’t a matter of minor issues, but major worldview issues.
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So here is a link to Mortification
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_%28band%29
Go on Youtube and watch their videos and listen to their “music” and tell me that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, would enjoy listening to these ol boys at His coronation. Please tell me you have no problem with labeling these guys as Christian. Can you actually say with a straight face that they love Jesus, worship Jesus and live submitted, surrendered holy lives?
“Well I don’t know them personally…” will be the response most likely. You don’t have to know a tree in order to tell what fruit is growing from its branches.
It boggles my mind how people will dismiss someone such as myself and my comments so quickly and turn around and crank up the volume to Rich Mullins, Whiteheart, Petra (yes I am dating myself), and think they are actually pleasing God. I guess one must have eyes to see and ears to hear in order to understand that it takes more than talent and an instrument to call yourself Christian and to worship God.
Anyway, the breathiness I was talking about is rampant in every secular radio station when a woman sings, and it is also rampant on the Christian radio stations as well. It sounds like, to be candid with you, she moonlights as a 1-900 operator, if you catch my drift.
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I’m not into death metal; just not a musical style that I like. Same with country, hip-hop, and most classical music. But based on what little information I do have, I have no problem labeling them as Christian. I can say with a straight face that they love Jesus, worship Jesus, and live submitted, surrendered holy lives.
I’ve been trying to avoid saying this, but frankly, you need to understand what’s really going on so that there is no confusion. I dismiss you because every single thing you say is about how only you are right and those who disagree with you are obviously not Christian. I dismiss you because every stance you claim is followed with a mentality that people disagree with you only because they are blinded by God. I dismiss you because when I bring Scripture to show a possible error, you ignore it and refuse to bring Scripture to back up your claims, bringing it back to a “God has blinded you, or else you’d agree with me.” I dismiss you because you because the only other person I have ever seen on the Internet who both claims to be Christian and hold to the borderline-cultic demands for agreement is the blasphemer Darwin Fish.
Does this help to unboggle your mind?
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yeesh. I think you 2 need to make up speedily. I think the noise you are making is painful in the ears of our Lord.
R&R: I have always supposed that God loves music, when done in a God honoring way. However, today I was brought up short by the notion that it is very likely that God does not enjoy the sound of even the most talented, God-honoring vocalist or instrumentalist who has ever existed on earth, because, frankly, I bet we have absolutely no idea of what the music of heaven sounds like, and it WILL be beautiful to Him. All music on this earth, because it is produced by depraved men and women who are mere mortals after all, is going to sound like cacophony in God’s ears. If He is pleased at all, it will only be because He looks on the heart, and is or is not pleased with that. He does not need our music, He has the music of heaven. So, really, it is only meaningless speculation when it comes to one style versus another, or one instrument verses another. It is all vanity.
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Yes, I agree, Kaydee. 072591, I want to clear the air with you on this subject. I must be a really bad communicator or something, because I get called self-righteous, and arrogant. I get accused of declaring everyone lost and myself saved and I am the only authority on what is acceptable to God and what isn’t. This tears at me so, because nothing could be further from the truth. I am nothing. Please understand this. I have been broken, shattered and dropped by the heavy hand of God and He is now rebuilding me into the image of His Son. I have nothing, all has been taken from me and my wife. We are janitors, who work nights and struggle to make ends meet. We have learned to trust in God’s provision more now than ever before. For 26 years I lived a religious lie, listening to everything that had a Christian label from heavy metal to meditation. I wore the typical Christian clothing, wore a cross around my neck had a well scribbled in Bible, spoke in tongues, saw visions and thought I was on the same level as Jesus Christ. Lat year in September God opened my eyes to my sin and depravity and it was at that moment, I truly died, because the truth was presented to me and I had no excuse now. I saw it as plain as day. My sin, indifference and rebellion put Jesus Christ, my Love, my Lord on that cross. ME! I spent days upon days weeping over this reality. So much changed from that moment on. My desires, lusts, wants and ambitions died. I didn’t like the same things anymore, they turned my stomach. I couldn’t listen to the same music anymore, it didn’t glorify God. I KNEW it didn’t regardless of what the artist wrote on the inside of the jacket. I got rid of books, clothes, music, computer games…you name it. I realized that every second, every breath, every heart beat was a gift from God and how dare I squander them on foolishness.
This is the basis of my convictions, this is where I am coming from. Just because at times I do not quote chapter and verse, doesn’t make what I say unscriptural. Do ALL to the glory of God! That is Scriptural. DEATH metal is not glorifying to God! Why does this not penetrate? DEATH and Christian? It certainly has nothing to the death of Jesus with their use of skulls, demons and hell used over and over. The Scrolls of the Megilloth has some of the most demonic and dark words and music that has ever been published to date. They have been called scary, horrific…need I say more? And this doesn’t include Tourniquet, Paramecium and others that I used to worship…yes worship and if anyone said one word of negativity to me about them, I would have acted just like you. Perhaps as Kaydee said the music in heaven will be unlike anything we have ever heard, but that doesn’t dismiss the fact that the music we listen to and perform down here has to have reverence and respect throughout it. I know of a woman who calls herself a Christian, who has a so called ministry, who sings in night clubs and bars to “minister” to the crowds Jesus, but refuses to put any references to Jesus or salvation in her songs because they would offend. Hello?
It is not I that needs to give my spiritual head a shake here. My day is surrounded by the above facts of my utter and complete dependence on God and every word, thought and deed is literally sieved through the filter of God’s glory and Phil. 4.8. Do I always succeed? No, of course not. But I can assure you, doing everything to the glory of God always follows everything I do, whether it be teaching my children on the little time I get to see them every week, to scrubbing out a toilet.
I am not boasting in myself, only through Jesus. My life, music, books, dress and behaviour will honour Jesus Christ, call me a legalist if you please, fine. I say this in love and honesty. My wife will tell me that I shouldn’t bother because it just fuels the fire of division, but I only come back again and again because Jesus wouldn’t leave me alone.
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@ Kaydee.
Thank you for your post. I am sorry to hear about the struggles that you have had, and you are in my prayers. I want to rest assured, I do not hold any of the people I mentioned in my previous post as idols. I have a lot of respect for them because of what they do, but I also realize that they are people who who have imperfections just like anyone else, and can only do what they do because of the grace of God. As far as doctrine goes, it is definitely something I am aware of, and especially careful of when I visit churches, listen to speakers, etc… I have not spent a lot of time studying doctrine to date, as I am wrapping up college studies. But I will not take your advice lightly.
@072591
I understand what you are saying. I would like to point out however, that Crowder helped found and is still very active at University Baptist Church (UBC) in Waco, TX. Now I understand that this doesn’t mean that he has come out and said that he has renounced the Roman Catholic church (that I’m aware of) But the Baptists don’t agree with hardly anyone else on anything. I would be so bold as to say that this is an implication that he has denounced the Roman Catholic ways.
@ revivalandreformation
The example you give of the Soccer camp worship service was extreme. I would also want nothing to do with that group. That being said, I have no shame whatsoever about playing a riff on the electric guitar, and I encourage all of the musicians on my worship team to play their instrument to the best of their abilities, and to strive to improve their skills. I would be ashamed if I were playing a riff without the express purpose of glorifying God. But as long as myself and and anyone else playing their instrument as well as they can for God’s glory, I’m all for it! Psalm 33:3 says:
Sing a new song to Him;
play skillfully on the strings, with a joyful shout. (HCSB)
As far as the mettle bands, or hip hop or any other genre for that matter, I don’t see the problem. Granted, I have no appreciation for metal or hip hop, and do my best to avoid those genres. I also know that there are people who feel just as strongly about music with acoustic guitars and pianos, and would prefer to have the lead singer screaming the lyrics while the guitarist plays something ridiculous. I would never expect any of these people to put in a Chris Tomlin cd and enjoy it, they would probably become annoyed and leave or put in their music. Christian Metal and Hip Hop are absolutely real things. And people are being inspired by that worship just like many church goers are inspired by Chris Tomlin. If you don’t enjoy the music, and don’t find it worshipful, don’t listen to it.
BTW87
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BTW87: I find your comment as subjective as mine. I guess being human we cannot help but put our own prejudices on everything whether it be religion or cars. You said you would have no part in the Soccer camp striptease worship service (my words), but maybe they were sincerely worshiping God through their stripping? Where was their heart? Maybe they were truly sincere? Maybe Mortification is truly sincere and maybe they spend hours a day on their faces before God? Maybe David Koresh really, truly, sincerely thought he was anointed of God? Where do we draw the line? Do we base what is right and acceptable on our own desires and what we personally like? Has things gotten to the place where we can no longer draw on clear cut black and white standards? I know you are coming from a worship leader’s POV, but that shouldn’t keep you from making hard decisions on what is acceptable and what isn’t. I know you have a job, and people depend on you and your leadership, but I truly think that we must draw the line and stop intermingling and copying the world in our ways and likes regarding most of all how we worship God. The Old Testament is rife with instances of God’s People borrowing from the world (paganism) and integrating secular ideas and customs into their own worship. How did God react to this? I say no more. It is the same, it has to be regarded by God as the same and I believe He will judge us in the same manner whether we want to admit it or not.
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revivalandreformation:
I find your opinion interesting. But I have an observation based on your comments. You wrote:
“…I truly think that we must draw the line and stop intermingling and copying the world in our ways and likes regarding most of all how we worship God.”
I’m assuming you wrote this about music styles, and how there are Christian artists producing metal and such. But based on that statement, (and I mean this in all seriousness) you believe that the piano and organ have no place in the church. The music system that was used for writing every song beginning sometime around 2000 BC was also first used by pagans.
Maybe you don’t believe any of what I wrote is true. However, it all seems like legalism to me. And if there is anything that agitates me, its legalism. I just know that Ephesians 5:19 says:
“speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music to the Lord in your heart,”
I don’t see anything in that verse that tells me to use or not use any specific instruments. So as long as God doesn’t tell me that is a sin to worship Him with the electric guitar, I will continue to do so.
BTW87
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“JESUSfreak”,
What you will and will not tolerate on a personal blog is not for you to decide. It does not matter how old you are, if you wish to comment here, you should first refer to our Rules of Engagement before leaving a comment like the one you left. This kind of comment has not in the past, nor will it in the future, be approved for our general readership.
By the way, it is much more important to be known as a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, than to be a “Jesus freak”. The fruits of your mouth do not represent what you claim that you represent.
The Desert Pastor
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As for how we should worship God, I recommend this quote – http://defendingcontending.com/2011/04/29/quotes-874/
Most contemporary style worship lacks reverence, fear, and proper understanding of God’s holiness, which is why we have an ‘anything goes’ attitude in the visible church.
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Wow! It’s taken me an hour to read the year of posts.
I am surprised that nobody here has linked cultural relativism to Leviticus 10:1-4 and God’s reaction to Nadab and Abihu’s strange fire. After doing an inductive study of Leviticus several years ago, the thought of God’s holiness and standard of worship has stayed with me, and kept me in a healthy fear and reverence of Him in all I do.
Because of Christ’s righteousness imputed to me, I’m compelled to worship with an even higher standard than that put forth in Leviticus. Hebrews is pretty clear that Christ is a better High Priest, so if anything, we need to notch up our holy living, rather than relax it to fit into the culture. I think that argument has been a little lost in the “if you follow one Levitical law you have to follow them all” retort. It’s late here, and I probably won’t weigh in any more. Just my .02.
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After nearly three hours of reading, my thoughts are as scattered as cast seed, but I have a few contributions just the same. In essence, I intend to show the positive side of Christian Contemporary Music (CCM) and to provide some insight to the behemoth we know as the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). As a side note, I encourage and approve everyone that has adopted such respectful tones in the later half of this thread; it’s wonderful to even see sincere apologies such as those from BTW87. These are uplifting to the Body as a whole, and encourage me even now! May they stand as a sustained example to the believers. Debating instead of arguing is hard to maintain, but it has such a profitable payoff when we do it RIGHT and respectfully–truly lovingly!
Now, to address the positive contributions of CCM, I, like many others, have personal testimony to offer. To begin, I was raised in a mainstream Protestant denomination church which adhered and still adheres quite strongly to Bible-based beliefs. Unfortunately, the undertone of the salvation preaching was a heavy suggestion of legalism. It was as if I was being told, “You can only be saved through Jesus, but if you’re sinning, you’re not saved.” As a result, I became stricken with the need to live perfectly, prayed the sinner’s prayer 1,000 times over, and was even baptized TWICE AS AN ADULT (i.e. I was not baptized once as a child and once as an adult). I had no idea what grace truly meant–or that “He Who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” I am SO thankful I know that now, but I’m still recovering from the scars that mentality left.
Because I was so focused on living RIGHT, I completely forgot the LOVE factor–and I don’t mean for people. If we listen to Jesus, we find that His #1 command was NOT concerned with other people and living right but with HIM. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.” And consequently, “If you LOVE me, you will keep my commandments.” Some would interpret this to say that we must show our love to Him by keeping His commandments, but they seem to miss the fact that the love has to be there FIRST. If we have no love to show, then why pretend that we do by following correct actions. Everyone agrees that works won’t get you to heaven, so why do we live like they do? A friend of mine once compared this to a marriage. If you FIRST LOVE someone, then you will live your life in their best interest; but if you simply live you live AS IF you love them, then that marriage has and will fail terribly.
Ultimately, the LOVE has to come FIRST. So instead of settling for moral improvement since it’s the easier of the two to accomplish, we should focus ALL our energies on developing a LOVE for Him and allowing that love to do what Jesus said it naturally WOULD do–to cause us to “keep [His] commandments.”
Now, though this seems like a rabbit trail, it is actually EXTREMELY close to my approval of Contemporary Christian Music–and even of David Crowder. In my lifelong quest to develop the deepest loving relationship with Jesus, I’ve found that music has been one of the single-greatest tools in achieving it. Back when I was saved in 7th grade, I got immediately into Christian music simply out of my desire for God. All these “Love Song[s] for a Savior” and prayers set to music did nothing but bring me closer to Him. Though I approve COMPLETELY of scripture and am the deepest of theologians and apologists, there is little that has regularly moved my emotions towards the worship of my Savior than music–and that’s something that each person prefers differently. For some, the hymns stir these emotions… others by southern gospel… others by Christian metal… and still others by Baroque music of the likes of Bach. But I happen to be stirred most deeply by CCM, and for that reason, I listen. It, more than anything else, helps to restore that love that legalism ripped from me.
In addition, because of my firm theological background (13 years in Christian education–20 in church), I am always analyzing the lyrics of CCM songs in their correctness. As a mathematician and computer scientist, I always want things to be logically consistent… and intimate prayers and songs to my God are not the least among them. Interestingly enough, I scarce (if ever) have reason to quarrel–and especially not because of David Crowder. In all the discussion on him, I think it’s important that we evaluate this musician by his lyrics first and foremost–even evaluate his music APART from him.
I am reminded of the story of the author of “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing,” Robert Roberson. Beginning his life as a passionate pastor, he penned those famous lyrics very early on; but as his life went on, his views changed to Unitarianism. As the story goes, late in his life, when asked about the song by a fan thereof, he responded that he only wished he could again be as happy as he was when he wrote it. He was no longer the passionate person behind those lyrics. In retrospect, it’s one of the most tragic stories of Christian music, but it goes to show that music and its lyrics can and do stand apart from their authors. Even though he fell, his hymn will stand for generations as one of the treasures of Christianity. Similarly with David Crowder, though it would definitely seem he’s taking a positive turn instead of a negative one, it is important to bear in mind that the content of his lyrics is far more important than any alleged discipleship of Catholicism. Take a look a his–or anyone else’s music–to judge that music. As for the current topic of love, I feel that this excerpt from the David Crowder Band’s “Foreverandever etc.” is an excellent example:
“I’m finding everything I’ll ever need
By giving up gaining everything
I’m falling for You for eternity
Right here at Your feet
Is where I wanna be
I am Yours”
Some would criticize this for sounding like a love song, but I’d respond that that’s what it’s meant to be: a love song for God. As the marriage relationship mirrors Christ’s relationship to the church, so also should we expect the love songs of human romance to be quite similar to and even eclipsed by our love songs towards God.
Moving on to the specific use of rock/hip hop/rap/etc. in the worship of God, I think the ideas of cultural context and redemption are very important here. Many have already fully addressed the former, pointing out that we wouldn’t force our culture on another through mission work, but rather adapt the Gospel TO that culture–music and all. It may help others to perceive Christian music as an attempt–as many understand it–to adapt to a foreign culture so that they can more easily receive and understand the fully biblical and true Gospel. As for my redemption idea, I feel that the use of these non-traditional and secular forms of music for the glory of God is one of the most potent pictures of redemption in our culture today; something that was born in sin has been changed and sanctified to His ultimate glory! What an image! Finally, in response to the point that worship must be done reverently, I’d say, first, that you’re absolutely right; but second, I’d say that reverence is much more a mindset than a motion–and even a flexible definition dependent on culture context, expressed by different people in many different ways. African tribes, for example, will celebrate our Savior with the absolute banging of instruments and vibrant dancing. To some of us, it seems irreverent; but to them, it is absolutely reverent. What Christian would attempt to remove the passion from these people that are epitomizing the meaning of loving God? May they continue into eternity, and may we learn from their emotion!
This also reminds me of a story from the renowned Chuck Swindoll. When preaching on Communion, he offered a few lessons on it that he’d gathered over the years. In this particular case, he emphasized that the materials involved didn’t matter. Wine? Grape juice? Water? Unleavened bread? Texas toast? It simply doesn’t matter; the significance is the symbolism–what it’s supposed to make you THINK about. He told a story of how he’d led communion on the beach with a bunch of college kids back in the 60’s with nothing but a few bags of chips and bottles of Pepsi, and people were simply in tears because of their incredible experiences with God that day. The materials didn’t matter, but the thoughts did. I think the same is true with our music.
Now, addressing the issue of whether contemporary music is done out of vanity and pride, I’d respond, as a musician myself, that vanity is an issue for every musician in every musical genre. From personal experience from struggling with WHO I was trying to glorify when I led worship to observing friends in my many years of band and choir, it is an inherent tendency of musicians to get prideful in what they do. After all, who doesn’t enjoy being the center of attention and being admired for being good at something? Even pastors have struggled with things like this. Thus, it is not an issue of what style of music is being played, but rather of being fallibly human–and, even more, of putting oneself in the right mindset.
I feel like CCM has gotten a bad rap because of a mistaken perspective on the younger people and fallible humans such as David Crowder that tend to be its leaders. As for the youngsters, they do tend to seem more immature, but I posit that it is only in appearance. As our years go by, we often find that what we call immaturity is, more frequently, simply a characteristic of being human. And it seems that older people aren’t always necessarily quite as good at quelling it as they are at hiding it. Just as we have the no-no sins (drunkeness, gambling, and smoking) separate from the accepted-sins (jealously, bitterness, and anger) while they are all, in the end, sins, so different degrees of exposure in immaturity are all, in the end, still immaturity. Now for Crowder, I’m somehow reminded of the lack of grace we so often have for our leaders. A potent counterexample that comes to mind is Steve Fee, leader of the band Fee and worship leader at Northpoint Community Church in Alpharetta, GA. A few years ago, it was found out that he was having an extra-marital affair–a fact that would obviously tarnish his reputation as a worship leader and Christian leader in general. However, instead of firing him, because he was repentant, head pastor Andy Stanley counseled him out of it. After all, grace isn’t about moral perfection but rather about repentance and redemption–and what a beautiful example this was! In the same way, though our leaders (like Crowder) may have had doubtful pasts, keep in mind that change can and HAS happened. I think one of the above contributors struck gold with his comment that a man that has gone from heavy Catholic influences to helping start a BAPTIST church has pretty well made his statement of faith. I mean, you can’t be sure, but that’s pretty darn good evidence.
Moving now to focus entirely on Crowder’s Catholic origins and a disambiguation of what’s collectively known as the Catholic church, I’ve got a number of comments that address a variety of posts throughout the page. First of all, I’d like to point out that not everything in Catholicism is necessarily heretical. Their main point of departure (i.e. believing in sacraments for salvation instead of God’s pure grace through Christ) may be our main point of unification in the Protestant church, but I feel this is a very acute (albeit EXTREMELY foundational and important) point of our theology. In other words, though they DO disagree on one of the most important points, they also have a lot of common ground with us on a HOST of other points. Books on theology do tend to be quite large, so there seems to be a lot of space left for agreement. There’s a similar canon and salvation through grace (though grace is administered differently according to them), among many other consequent similarities. Thus, his jump from Catholicism to Protestant Christianity would have been much easier than, say, coming from Islam or Mormonism as was suggested earlier. Indeed, what religion outside our own could better familiarize you with our scripture and theology than Catholicism? I don’t know of any.
On a similar point, having met and discussed religion with a good many Catholics in my time, I also think it’s important to note that few Catholics in the United States actually agree completely with the Roman Catholic Catechism. There is plenty of dissent on birth control use, the role of women in the church, and even on how to be saved. To many of them, when I posed the basic questions that would reveal their salvation status from a Protestant point of view, most of them passed with flying colors! And I think this is because of the very nature of the Catholic church. Here in Protestant land, if you disagree with a church’s theology, you either find yourself another one or you create a new denomination. With Catholics, on the other hand, you stick with the Church. In other words, they don’t have a tradition of jumping ship; instead, they stay unified with what they believe to be the body of believers, all the while dissenting from the erroneous contentions of Rome and hoping for a change in those contentions sometime soon. Thus, unlike in the traditional Protestant church, you can’t identify a Catholic’s entire belief system just by the sheer fact that he’s Catholic. Diversity and dissension are quite widespread, but the face of Rome is the prevailing “official” overseer of their beliefs. Thus, ultimately, though Crowder may be of Catholic origins, this does not mean that his Catholic-influenced beliefs necessarily adhere or EVER adhered to the official Catechism, and, in fact, they may be closer than we realize. After all, he never said SPECIFICALLY what his beliefs so influenced were. If, as he suggested, they were anything of the sort of St. Francis’ disapproval of materialism, what better philosophy and theology could we have being promoted to the modern American Christian church than THAT?
Next, I’d like to address the issue of referring to extra-biblical Catholic writings for one’s study and inspiration. The assertion was made in an above post that these writings are not valid because they’re not the Bible; however, I’d like to point out that no commentary, devotional, apologetic work, or even concordance ever created was actually the Bible, but we still find them all useful. Yes, we may have works in the Protestant realm generally grounded more deeply in the Word than in the Catholic realm, but many of these scholars have made irrefutable contributions to the overall advancement of the Kingdom. St. Augustine, for example, not so far removed from our Protestant C.S. Lewis, was one of the very first people to produce a comprehensive logical defense of the Christian faith (City of God and the Confessions), but we will not discount his work simply because he was part of the Catholic church. Indeed, as an independent thinker and as one who came to Christianity by his logical reasoning, he is NOT one that would have accepted beliefs simply because they were the contention of Rome. As an apologist myself, I cannot thank God enough for his contributions.
Finally, I want to point out the hidden positive that may very well be in Crowder’s agreement to interview with the Catholic teen magazine. Here we have a man of Catholic origins and very famed–thus a great person for them to do a story on. But, from Crowder’s perspective, I see this as a HUGE opportunity to build a bridge. No, he may not have been able to share his version of the Gospel in this interview, but you can bet that the kids who read it will be able to hear that Gospel through his music. This was anything but a hindrance to his reputation; this was a MISSIONS opportunity! Praise the Lord! Maybe we might find one of those Catholic kids in our contemporary Protestant worship services sometime soon… who knows?!
Anyhow, I hope this has provided good insight to the issues at hand, and I look forward to any future posts! Much thanks and LOVE GOD!!!
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JCvindica:
Let me start with Mr. Crowder’s own words, from the post…
So in his own words his faith was formed and influenced by Roman Catholic traditions and writings; that alone is reason enough not to listen to anything from this man and label it as ‘christian’. Good grief! He doesn’t even have the foundations and basics right, he is crediting a false religion for his faith. If that doesn’t send up red flags, your discernment meter is broken.
I also would ask why is it these CCM artists charge for listening to their music: cd’s, t-shirts, programs, all kinds of trinkets are sold at their concerts. Many live lavishly, like their secular counterparts. I find no example in God’s word of David, or anyone charging money for praise music.
Another point I wish to bring up is the partying and drinking that goes on backstage after the show; I volunteered briefly at a CCM radio station and heard from our station promotions director about the partying she witnessed firsthand, she was so disappointed in what she witnessed.
If David Crowder upholds false teaching, the Jesus he claims to be praising is not the Jesus of the bible; he is a man pleaser. There is a reason why Christ said the way is narrow, it does not include those who adhere to false doctrine/tradition.
When I volunteered in CCM radio, I would speak of repentance, being born again, and
read verses to coincide with what I said. Eventually i was talked to, the station consultants feared i was being too offensive. This is the problem with CCM music and radio stations, they want to attract the world, they just don’t want to speak truth; true biblical truth is offensive.
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One of the local “christian” stations where I live would sometimes play Brooks and Dunn’s “Brand new man”. I guess they thought it was a christian song (rolls eyes). I don’t know if they still do because I stopped listening to the station.
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Though I’m all for adopting secular songs that reflect the relationship between God and ourselves (I’m a big fan of “Bring Me to Life” by Evanescence in this sense–good prayer), I have to agree that “Brand new man” is taking it a little too far–almost blasphemous in a way. Acting like a girl changed your life in anything NEAR the way God did is ridiculous; it’s funny on the country station, but not so much on a station supposedly devoted to the worship of God.
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Great thread – well worth reading all of the comments for many reasons. The CCM is just like everything else in the last days, mostly apostate. It is encouraging to see brethren here taking a stand for truth and being humble when dealing with those in error. I even came in believing that the Wesleys used old bar tunes, but now I have some research to do since my idea seems to be shot down. -Jim
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I’m sorry, I just read unworthy1’s comment, “So in his own words his faith was formed and influenced by Roman Catholic traditions and writings…”
Not to throw a wrench in your argument, but you do realize that the majority of all Christian doctrine and teaching is rooted in the early writings and teachings of the Catholic Church, right?
Also, it’s a common misconception that Catholics worship Mary – my theology professor in college thought the same thing, but if you take the time to ask a Catholic, they’ll quickly clarify that they only ask for her prayers – in the same way we ask our friends and families for their prayers. Listen to the words of Hail Mary next time, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death” It’s either directly from scripture, or asking Mary to pray for the person.
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Tori,
Can you give me a verse that commands us to pray to Mary? Where in God’s word are we commanded to pray to dead people?
I look forward to your response.
Lyn
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“The RCC is an Apostate belief system. Anyone who desires use them as an “influence” in how to worship Christ is just opening up the door to all sorts of evil.” amen!!!
@BornToWorship87…with a name like born to worship…i would hope that you would place more emphasis on scriptures like John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”….
what you are saved from should not become the foundation for what you believe or the inspiration for what you speak…and i will goes as far as to say that it should not be a source of inspiration for your “ministry” (case in point, david crowders music ministry) but it is the power of God that saved you from these things that should be the source of your inspiration…
why should we look for inspiration or strength outside of the very source of inspiration and strength?
Rev21:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,,,they have a testimony because of the blood that the Lamb (JESUS) shed on the cross…
what crowder is doing is no different than a former drug addict talking about the good old day, and how much fun he used have when he was stoned….i see passiveness where warning should be, and if i can add one more analogy, i see this as no different than trying to adapt a slaves lifestyle to a life of freedom and is no different in any way from the things that kept the Israelite people out of the promise land…
exodus 16:”Would that we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the meat pots and ate bread to the full, for you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger.”
they had fire by night, smoke by day, they just watched God make a fool out of every Egyptian god there was, they saw the red sea separate, water come a rock, their clothes and shoes didn’t wear out (per the promise of God)…..but they were more inspired by the meat pots of Egypt than by the supernatural work of the mighty God!!! they couldn’t let go of that security blanket even though to chose it meant missing out on Gods promise for their (an entire nation of people..minus 2) life.
well i refuse to be anyone other than Caleb in this situation…i will proclaim the word of the Lord to the world and I absolutely refuse to be part of an entire generation of people who don’t get to enter into the promise land all because they chose to cling on to the slavery chains of their past instead of the eternal freedom the personal relationship with Jesus Christ
to further my Caleb comment….
Numbers 14:24
English Standard Version (ESV)
24But my servant Caleb, because he has a DIFFERENT spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into the land into which he went, and his descendants shall possess it….
that word different actually means “next”
so you could say it this way…”because he has a NEXT spirit and has followed me fully”
the literal meaning f the word “next” : immediately following in time, order, importance, etc.: the next day; the next person in line…
basically he was never satisfied with his present relationship with the Lord or with his current surroundings or circumstances…he wanted more than he had then and was always seeking after what God had next for him….
Caleb and Joshua had this to say in numbers 14: “The land we passed through and explored is exceedingly good. 8 If the LORD is pleased with us, he will lead us into that land, a land flowing with milk and honey, and will give it to us. 9 Only do not rebel against the LORD. And do not be afraid of the people of the land, because we will devour them. Their protection is gone, but the LORD is with us. Do not be afraid of them.”
they left their slavery chains behind and gloried not in past experiences, but rather in the face of every other person in the nation of Israel, followed God and clung to every promise of freedom and protection that He gave to them and because of that were the only 2 people from that generation to enter into the promise land
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I know I am very late to this party, but this comment is geared toward The Pilgrim – I got tired head from reading all the debate….all I know is that David Crowder definitely knows Jesus and has led many (including my three children) into the presence of the living God many times, both live and via recordings. We love his heart for worship and his heart to reach the lost. If we can seriously focus on the King and Redeemer Jesus and understand the simple gospel, we’ll be so much better off. To answer many of my evangelical friends (of which I consider myself to be a member since I love to introduce the lost to our magnificent Savior), I have met so many Catholics who I know I will see in Heaven and fully believe they know Jesus as Lord. Mother Theresa did so much for the least of these that Jesus calls us to serve. And we are ALL so wrong on many theological issues, but Jesus will judge us by our hearts and love for him and his people. Instead of engaging in judging fellow believers, go serve the disenfranchised, lost and broken people in the world and pray to hear the Lord’s voice. You could help bring His kingdom into the dark places of this world.
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@ Tim:
Just curious, when you say, “You could help bring His kingdom into the dark places of this world” exactly whose definition of “His kingdom” are you referring to? And exactly whose definition of “His” are you using?
That of the Mormons? The Roman Cathoilcs? The Jehovah’s Witnesses? The Emergents? The Word of Faith? The Christian Science? The Protestants? The Muslims?
Without clearly defined meanings (doctrine) we end up introducing the world to a whole host of counterfeit Christs (which Jesus warned us about in Matthew). Just because we call it Jesus doesn’t make it Jesus.
So which “Jesus” do you suggest we take to the lost?
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Tim said: “I have met so many Catholics who I know I will see in Heaven”
only if they repent of their demonic religion and believe the Gospel. By your words it sounds that you strengthen them in their sin and further their damnation though. I am so thankful Jesus saved me from my catholic upbringing.
Tim said: “. Instead of engaging in judging fellow believers, go serve the disenfranchised, lost and broken people in the world and pray to hear the Lord’s voice.”
This is called a false dichotomy. We are commanded to judge those who profess to be believers (1 Corinthians 5) as well as preach the Gospel, and care for the orphan and the widow. Mother Theresa is burning in hell unless she repented before her death of idolatry and devotion to the false Christ she worshipped. Straight is the gate and narrow the way. -Jim
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Satan loves to dress up as “Jesus”; it’s one of his favorite games!
In Christ,
CD
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unworthy1:
I just noticed that I never responded to your last post. Let me address everything point by point.
1) Crowder’s faith was formed and influenced by the Catholic traditions and writings. Therefore, he and his music should not be labelled Christian.
This may seem like a silly question to ask, but “Which writings?” Different authors with have different influences, but then that still doesn’t quite get us to the point. The next question we must ask is “How did these writings influence his faith’s formation?” Again, I know it may sound silly, but without those details, it is difficult to make a truly fair judgement of this fellow. More or less, we are left with judging him by his actions and lyrics. I can personally attest to the Biblical validity of his lyrics. As for his actions, I simply don’t know him well enough. That question is for someone with more intimate knowledge to answer.
2) Christian musicians shouldn’t charge for their services or sell band paraphernalia.
I have two thoughts on this point. First, because some of them truly have devoted themselves entirely to God (albeit not all of them), we could easily compare them to pastors. They study and work to bring quality and sincere music just as our pastors work to bring us quality and sincere theology and guidance. By devoting ALL of their time to these tasks, their quality surpasses anything that part-timers can usually achieve. Either both deserve payment or both do not. I can make an argument for either from a biblical stance, but I do contend that we must remain consistent.
For my second point, I’d like to address the costs involved with what they do. Renting out venues and travel are far from cheap. You might liken this to a church sermon versus a Christian university education. Pastors don’t charge for sermons, but Christian university professors sure enough do. Similarly, many of these musicians perform as worship leaders in their local churches quite regularly without charging the attendants, but they charge when they go on the road. What shall we do biblically? Again, if we question this establishment (which, indeed, we should), we must also question the Christian university system.
3) Christian musicians should not live lavishly.
I have a tendency to agree with you on this point. The point of our existence is to glorify God–not to please ourselves. Unfortunately, we all get caught up in wanting to spend time, money, and effort on ourselves instead of our true purpose. Flawed Christian musicians are not necessarily worse than your average layman–they just have a greater opportunity to sin than the layman. It’s all about character. If I, given that position, would spend money as lavishly on myself as some of them have, then I am no better than them. As one of my professors once put it, however, there are quite a few Lexuses sitting in our church parking lots.
4) Christian musicians should be setting the example–not partying and drinking backstage.
Amen–to an extent. Fellowship is good. Drinking in moderation is biblically fine. But reveling is indeed condemned. I think it goes back to who (or Who) we’re living for–and HOW we’re going about it. Jesus sure enough spent time with people and drank a little wine, but He kept things purposeful and never went to excess. After all, “a King must not forget the law”–or His purpose.
5) CCM should be sharing the WHOLE truth of Christ in all its offense–not man-pleasing.
Absolutely. I’ve seen the same thing out here where I live. Back in the 90’s, the slogan was “Winning Augusta for Jesus.” Now, the radio station name has become “Family Friendly.” There’s no need to make the Gospel any more offensive than it already is, but sharing the full truth is still absolutely warranted and necessary. You could argue that it’s a method of graduated ministry. Get them in without immediately turning them off. You want them to stay long enough to at least hear the message. Share it for sure! But don’t send them away before their souls ever hit the door.
By the way, pardon my brevity. I didn’t have as much time to respond this time.
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All that the RCC teaches, for example; Peter is the rock upon which the Lord will build His church, or the teaching of purgatory, praying to Mary, addressing the Pope as ‘ holy Father’, etc. Following false teachings leads to a wrong understanding of salvation, God, Jesus, and eternity.
As for the devotion you say Christian musicians have and therefore deserve payment, does that mean every time someone proclaims the Gospel they should receive payment? I find no scriptural backing for singing the Gospel; praise and worship should be Christ exalting and God honoring: where in the word of God are amplified instruments and voices spoken of? Or big screen tv’s? We have taken worship and made it man centered according to what we deem as ‘acceptable’.
David Crowder doesn’t even have the foundations right,how can you honestly think what he is doing is glorifying God if he doesn’t even know the true Gospel?
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Christian,
I have decided it best to remove your comment because all you offer is an opinion, to think the RCC has shaped the faith of all Christians is a false statement. This blog has shown repeatedly from scripture the erroneous teachings of the RCC and its dangers. Your attack of my responses is based on your opinion, now, if you would like to prove your point using God’s word, by all means,do so.
BTW, I am a woman.
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Lance/SoldierofVerity, your comments are not welcome here and neither are you especially in the spirit in which you come to this blog. You will be better served to take your hatred and venom to other sites that will permit it for they will not see the light of day here. All of your comments are confined to the trash no matter how many you send our way. If they continue, your IP addresses and your names will be deleted as well so we do not have to worry about taking time out of our schedules to delete them.
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First off, let me say thank you for posting this. I want to share what God told me this morning on my way back from work. I was in my car praying and thanking God that He answered me on another prayer, and I was also worshipping Him at the same time. I had my music on my phone set to all the worship songs and the song “O Praise Him” from the David Crowder Band was playing. Well, after I had finished praying outloud I began to sing that song, and that part where it says, “Oh la la la la la la la” over and over again was playing. Right then and there, God spoke and said “He isn’t singing praises to me” “He’s singing to Satan”. I wasn’t sure if I heard right because it came as a shock. I knew I could feel God’s presence when I was praying in the car and I felt like it was one of those prayer sessions where He was speaking through me and prompting me what to prayer so that it was His Words and not my own. I asked God, “Lord, if this is really from You and not the enemy putting thoughts in my head then tell me the name of the band that sings this song”, because I wasn’t sure who sang it at the time, I just put songs on that I like but don’t always remember the artist who sings them unless it is a favorite of mine. He told me it was the David Crowder Band so I looked and sure enough it was. But still, I thought, maybe that was just me, maybe I recalled the name….so I asked God, “Lord, this is a little crazy, I can hardly believe what I’m hearing, and I really want to know if this is from you.” “If I google this and it comes up immediately that someone else has gotten this same revelation then I will know that I’m actually hearing Your voice on this and not the enemy trying to mess with me.” Well, this blog was the first to come up. When I saw the description of what you were talking about, I knew, and instantly got chills. I wanted to throw up. I repented immediately and deleted their song. That song was the only one I have on my ipod that is from that band thankfully.
I am fully aware of how Satan uses the music industry, and of how there are songs that are sung in “witch language”, but I wasn’t suspecting the songs I had to be some of them. I don’t listen to any secular artist at all for that very reason, and yet, I had one of these songs on my phone that was supposed to be praising the God I serve, the Lord Jesus Christ, and it wasn’t. My prayer, more than ever, now is for God to really give me discernment when it comes to the music I choose to put on in worship to Him. I hope this helps someone else– we overcome by the power of our testimony and the blood of the Lamb. Thank you Jesus for quickening our spirit to Your truth.
Erin
http://onejesusonelove.blogspot.com/
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Erin, thanks for your post. I’ve been doing some house cleaning with regard to the music I listen to. I’m glad the Father gave you that revelation and confirmed what was posted here.
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CCM is most heinos… but not because Crowder is influenced by St. Francis…
I mean c’mon, no way you can say that everything St. Francis stood for was Catholic as opposed to Christian. In fact, the SPECIFIC thing Crowder mentions about St. Fancis character is definitely biblical. And I’m no Catholic.
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I understand the concern, and i even have some questions about David Crowder, but it would also be discerning from our part to realize that we have inherited some of our orthodox doctrines from the Roman Catholic Church (e.g. the doctrine of the Trinity). I am not Catholic, and i definitely acknowledge the doctrinal differences between Catholics and Evangelicals, but to say that anyone who reads or has been influenced by Catholic writings is dangerous is far from being true. May i remind the readers that the Reformation was started by a Catholic who did not leave all the Roman Catholic preserved doctrines behind (otherwise we would be missing trinitarian doctrines and the hypostatic union). Reading old Christian writings is good. There is much to be gleaned from them as there is from other old writings by people that we don’t fully agree with (even from the evangelical camp). The Spirit works in sinners, not perfectly inerrant people. There is always need to read with discernment, even when reading from your own denomination. So, if we’re gonna judge David Crowder, let’s do it based in his theology and life, not based on something he read.
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jono55:
“I mean c’mon, no way you can say that everything St. Francis stood for was Catholic as opposed to Christian. In fact, the SPECIFIC thing Crowder mentions about St. Fancis character is definitely biblical.”
Francis of Assisi was a Roman Catholic mystic, loyal to the Pope, and canonized a saint of the Roman Catholic Church due to such loyalty. Though he had some “good sayings”, that does not make him a true Christian in the biblical sense. By virtue of his adherence to a religion of works, and of adopting Asceticism rather than obedience to the Scriptures, he thus cannot be considered “Christian” (in the Biblical sense).
justforreflection:
” it would also be discerning from our part to realize that we have inherited some of our orthodox doctrines from the Roman Catholic Church (e.g. the doctrine of the Trinity).”
Wow. If you truly believe that true, bible-believing Christians have “inherited” the doctrine of the Trinity from the Roman Catholic Church, then you’ve been seriously misinformed. The Scriptures testify of the Triune God. We need no organization of men to defer to on this. To further infer that our other basic Christian doctrines (such as the hypostatic union) have been “preserved” by the Roman Catholic Church is bogus as well. Bible believing Christians have held to the unity of humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ since the days of the Apostles, since that is what the Scriptures teach.
I would agree in principle that some “old Christian writings” can be of benefit. But if we’re talking about spiritual benefit, rather than some generic old feel good type of writings, then we must be quick to acknowledge that those fallible authors must be mature born again disciples of Jesus Christ (as evidenced by their fruit) AND their teachings are not in conflict with the Scriptures (see Acts 17:11). That would rule out Francis of Assisi.
“So, if we’re gonna judge David Crowder, let’s do it based in his theology and life, not based on something he read.”
That’s the whole point of the post. We are taking notice of his theology and life. His very claim that Roman Catholic teachings have influenced the very formation of his faith, makes Roman Catholicism a significant part of his theology. That he gravitates toward Catholicism (as described in the article above) is evidence of his significant lack of understanding of Biblical Christianity (which is in conflict with Roman Catholicism). In light of this, we need to ask ourselves: what testimony then is his life bearing?
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@DavidW,
what’s your point… ?
I never said SFoA was a believer… i said that “the SPECIFIC thing Crowder mentions about St. Fancis character is definitely biblical.”
You just trying to pick a fight? 😉
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jono55:
The point was that the specific thing Crowder mentions about Francis’s character is not “definitely biblical.” Biblically sound “character” is displaying the fruit which proceeds from a right relationship with the Lord God Almighty through being connected to The Vine (Jesus Christ). Without that connection, one simply cannot display or practice biblically sound good fruit. What Francis displayed and practiced was Asceticism. And the distinction is especially born out when we consider Francis’ overall philosophy.
Trying to pick a fight? Not at all. The info is given for your consideration.
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For those of you who are so quick to condemn the Eucharist as crazy or invented by man… Try reading John Chapter 6 verses 55- 71. Also read Luke 21:19-20. These are Christ’s words. Even Martin Luther believed in the presence of Christ in Communion. Think about it. Pray about it. What a beautiful gift that Christ would be so present to us every single day!
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It’s sad that you have absolutely no understanding of Catholicism. Very sad, indeed.
Signed,
A fellow Christian and devout Catholic
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BillG, there are many things Luther was wrong in including his position on communion and his anti-semitism. We are not seeking to follow a particular doctrine or truth because of who holds to that position or does not hold to it. Too hold that Christ is literally in the mass/eucharist and is called down at the whim of the totally depraved false teacher holding the elements up to the sky is to sacrifice Christ again and again. This is a clear violation of the teaching found in Hebrews. Christ was sacrificed once for all.
********
Teri, I am afraid that what is sad is that you have been taught error by a religious system that is built upon the traditions of men instead of on the infallible, inerrant Word of God. Several here at DefCon were saved OUT of Roman Catholicism, so to say we know nothing about it is to assume that you know who we are. Finally, as we have already pointed out, and more importantly, as the Scriptures reveal, you cannot worship both God and idols. A true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ cannot and will not ever be able to remain in the Catholic church. The two are completely and totally incompatible. We will pray that you will soon come to the truth of Scripture that reveals salvation is found only in Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, not in a religious system built not just upon the traditions of men, but upon the ancient cultic worship found in Babylon.
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BillG and Teri – John 6 has NOTHING to do with what ya’ll call The Eucharist. (The cult of Rome has co-opted a beautiful word, meaning thanksgiving). I encourage you to read this article to better understand John 6: http://calvinismisthegospel.com/?p=1268
For the cause of Christ and not any man.
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@DavidW,
Dude… there’s nothing wrong with this sentence from Crowder:
“I’m equally attracted to and repelled by. I long for his powers of disassociation from the trappings of “stuff.” I’m beset with consumption and materialism, and he is a compelling symbol of contentment.”
One would have to interject what one THINKS Crowder means by these sentences to be able to make the kind of claims many are making about Crowder in these comments.
I can admire a mother’s long-suffering for her children, a father’s tireless work effort to support his family, the self-sacrifice that Gandhi had for his people, the creativity and beauty of Chopin’s Nocturnes… WITH the knowledge that all/any of these people aren’t Christ followers, but instead exhibit characteristics of the One who made them because they cannot help it… they are His image…
It’s ridiculous to expect some-one to ALWAYS tag onto the end of every such admiration that “ah… but they aren’t believers… so all of their characteristics are garbage.”
You’re cutting the bread too thin. Which is a bad way to argue.
If we’re going to say Crowder’s music isn’t helpful… there are far better reasons to do so in my opinion than that he admires St. Francis for his ability to disassociate “from the trappings of “stuff.”
In my opinion most contemporary worship music leaders/song-writers aren’t reading ENOUGH OF ANYTHING! I’m sorta relieved to hear that Crowder DOES read something other than “Relevant Magazine”.
I still think you’re trying to pick a fight 😉
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Jono:
OK, try not to read into this that I’m picking a fight, because that isn’t my intention as I’ve said before. I will attempt to clarify. There is a difference between disassociation from “trappings of stuff”, and repentance. Every Christian should, as a matter of basic repentance, have a denial of self, hold the world and it’s ways as being hostile to God according to the Scriptures, and be separated unto God (holiness), The problem is that Crowder, instead of appealing to Scriptural truth regarding repentance and our separation from the world, chose instead to appeal to a Catholic mystic (Francis), then presenting his mystical asceticism (disassociation from “trappings of stuff”) as something laudable, when in reality it is a distortion of what God calls us to do (repent). For that matter, why not adopt some Buddhist practices, and say “I’m a follower of Jesus, but I admire Siddhartha Gautama for the Four Noble Truths”? Are you understanding the point here? The Christian has no business adopting, much less publishing/proclaiming and/or giving endorsement of beliefs which are part and parcel of belief systems which are in conflict with the truth of God’s Word.
And it’s not just that he’s giving good press to a Catholic mystic. The article testified of his other Catholic associations as well. And since such association is directly in conflict with the Scriptures, and contrary to the basic meaning of repentance, the question becomes, how can one truly be of Christ, and not understand even rudimentary repentance?
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I’m sorry, jungle missionary and Manfred, but you would have to accuse the apostles of misleading and injecting traditions of men. I challenge you to read the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch, bishop of Antioch and disciple of John the Apostle, as he sailed to reach his death as a martyr in Rome in 110 A.D., before the cannon of the New Testament was compiled by a council of Catholic bishops. I’m sure as a studied Christian you’ve read church history, so I’m probably telling you what you already know.
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 6, 110 A.D.:
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God … They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.
“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?” I Cor 10:16
Praying during this week of Christian Unity.
Teri
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@DavidW,
We obviously have a basic disagreement here. I see absolutely nothing wrong with admiring the ability to disassociate oneself with “stuff” (ie: covetousness) and the “trappings” of that stuff. Even when it comes from a non-believer (which by the way i make no claims about in the case of SFoA).
You have to inject trajectories and assumptions about one’s intent and derive the specific root of their admiring to make the claims you making about WHY Crowder admires the saint.
Here’s where I think we differ.
I believe there is truth, beauty and God’s glory to be found in the characteristics of fallen, un-repentant people BECAUSE as image bearers of the Almighty they simply can’t help it. These things do not save them, do not “count as righteousness”, and do not come from the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. Yet, they Glorify the Maker because they are His mark… and therefore, can be admired by the redeemed man.
In brief, the Christian can find the mark of the Maker in the un-redeemed image-bearer of the Almighty. (and use as a means of revealing the Gospel to them).
Yes, I mean even those who are called “children of wrath”.
So let’s leave it there, because defending this isn’t something I’m willing to do online.
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Thank you, Jon. St. Francis is a beautiful witness of desperate inloveness with his Savior. He could barely contain himself, and sometimes couldn’t. He was driven to care for the lepers and the poor because he saw Jesus in everyone. And at the end of his life, he took on great suffering, including the stigmata, out of love for Jesus. Truly beautiful.
Thank you for your words.
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Teri, it really does not amaze me that error could spread so quickly after the death of the early apostles. The view Ignatius held on the “Eucharist” was just as much in error as the Catholic religion is today. The reason it does not amaze me is because the apostles had to address the error and heresy that was already creeping into the true church of Jesus Christ before Ignatius of Antioch became a part of the early church scene. It also does not amaze me that heresy has a very long shelf-life. The same error and false teachings continue to make their reappearances, sometimes though it just shows up in different packaging.
Secondly, Francis held to some doctrines that are not found in Scripture. His teaching of seeing Jesus “in” everyone led him to include such thoughts about the animal kingdom as well which is why he would baptize animals as well as humans. The truth of Scripture is not easy to swallow because the truth is that Jesus is NOT “in” everyone. Only those who are true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ have Christ dwelling in them. The rest are children of the devil and are currently abiding under the coming wrath of God. All are NOT brothers, nor are all God’s children. The Almighty God of heaven is NOT the Father of all again as taught by Rome.
Finally, there will be many who say on the Day of Judgment, did we not do all these things in Your Name? He will reply, “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity, for I NEVER knew you.” Whether it be Francis, Teresa of Calcutta, or the popes will not make one bit of difference. You cannot do good to others, for others, or for God and expect that this will gain one entrance into heaven. There is only one way to heaven. Stating that one loves Jesus is only valid if we keep His commandments.
TJM
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TJM,
I’d be interested to find non-scriptural writings of early Christians (say before A.D. 300) that contradict Ignatius and the other “Church Fathers” and support your understanding of Biblical Christianity (on the Eucharist, for example). Was there a faithful remnant that lived at the same time as the proto-Romish? Or was apostasy universal for a time? If so, when did it start and end?
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Well, TJM, I thought you’d at least be in the camp that believes the Church fell into apostasy at the time of Constatine. If the Holy Spirit did not protect the Church from error during the lives of the apostles (or shortly after as you assert) with an apostolic authority (since there was no New Testament as we have today), how, pray tell, do you know you have the Truth? And is it only your little congregation? I can and do claim the Holy Spirit has revealed the Truth to me as a Catholic as much as He has to you, and we obviously disagree.
I’m wondering if you believe in the Trinity?
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Teri,
There was apostasy in the church long before Constantine. Constantine merely married the parts of Christendom that he liked with the ancient Babylonian worship in what is known as syncretism. The Catholic religion has long sought to perfect this method. Constantine as your first pope was a depraved sinner and never knew the Lord Jesus Christ as a true believer any more than any other popes that have continued the heresy out of Rome.
The Holy Spirit did protect the church, but that Church is not and never has been the Catholic religion. I am afraid that you are sadly mistaken about your claim to the knowledge of truth from the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures make it clear that the Holy Spirit will not teach something that was different than what Jesus Christ taught. I do believe in the Trinity and each member of the Godhead is perfect in holiness. Is there truth available? Yes, of course, there is, but it does not reside in any man-made system of religion such as the Catholic system of religion. The Holy Spirit could not reveal something to you that confirms Catholicism for to do so would undermine His perfect holiness.
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I’m a bit confused by Pilgrim’s original post, namely that he is concerned that David Crowder refers to St. Francis of Assisi prayers. It seems that Pilgrim is objecting to crowder’s use of Assisi’s work on the grounds that Assisi was a Catholic, calling the Catholic Church apostate. Yet, in Assisi’s time, there was no church but the Catholic Church; the Protestant Reformation (which I’m assuming Pilgrim agrees with) occurred after his time. While comments on the rest of this site would indicate a strongly Calvinist disposition, surely you are not naive enough to divorce yourself from the history of the church before Calvin. You’re argument is simply not sound; you may not agree with David Crowder, but if you want to claim that his theology is inadequate, you should do a better job of actually examining his beliefs rather than making poor inferences about his theology on the basis of interviewing with a Catholic magazine or using Assisi’s prayers. As Christians, we should be above sophomoric arguments like these, examining instead how his actual beliefs line up with Christ, in whom all wisdom and knowledge is found.
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Justin, you are making a mistake that many within the Catholic religion make, and that is namely about the history of the early Christian church. The Catholic system of religion was NOT the only religious establishment during the time of Assisi. The Roman Catholic religion even states in their own history that right from the very beginning, there were groups of people who met together as true believers in opposition to what became the Catholic church. In fact, honest Catholic historians have revealed over and over that there were people known as baptists. This is of course, quite factual, because the Baptist church was never part of the Reformation, but was in existence long before the very first stirrings of the Reformation. God has always had a people that He has kept secure even in the midst of intense persecution by the church in Rome. To assume that the ONLY church in the late 1100’s and early 1200’s was the Catholic church is a poor attempt at trying to cover up history.
As for David Crowder, there is no issue as to his poor theology as long as a person understands the truth of Scripture. You cannot mix truth with error and end up with a modified truth. Truth mixed with error becomes no truth at all.
As for Francis of Assisi, his adherence to false doctrine also made him a false teacher. Francis did not teach the truth of Scripture but continued to hold forth the traditions of men and the heresy found even today in the Catholic church.
TJM
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Well, TJM, my reply didn’t make it up, so I’ll try again. Of course, I believe nothing of what you speak about the Catholic Church and have heard it all before (except that Constantine was our first pope…interesting “history” you’ve read). And I’m kind of surprised that you would trust the teaching on the Trinity considering it was doctrine clearly defined by a council of Catholic bishops and is only implied in scripture.
Yes, I am familiar with syncretism, and if you were a wedding ring, you are also guilty of adopting a pagan practice.
Peace,
Teri
“God loves each of us as if there was only one of us to love.” Augustine of Hippo
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“God loves each of us as if there was only one of us to love.” Augustine of Hippo—
This points to a lopsided view of God, and does not give a complete biblical understanding of the true God, a God who is holy, pure, undefiled; a God whose wrath is on the unbelieving, who will judge sinners.
The teaching of the trinity is found in God’s word and made true in the hearts of His people by His Spirit, not by a dead religion.
Teri, can you explain how you are saved from God’s wrath?
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Luke1732, the issue is not whether I can produce any references in history which could be obtained by anybody wishing to take the time simply to search the internet. The issue is what we believe in regards to the Scriptures vs. the traditions of men. Any Catholic can tell you what they been indoctrinated with in regards to things like communion, and it is in their best interests to simply swallow what is being fed to them. If a person does not, they will be considered to be anathema to the religion of Rome. Sadly, the Catholic religion has done a phenomenal job of twisting the writings of the early church fathers to suit their own ends, which ironically enough is never good enough for when you teach error, you must continue to hone your craft for it never quite works out like you want it to. Case in point: the evil doctrine of celibacy which has helped to create and further child molestation and abuse by wicked orders of priests.
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Lyn, it’s a beautiful quote from a holy, scholastic Christian who much of the Christian world admires. If Jesus had to die for just one of us, He would have, His love was that great. I’m sorry you didn’t see the astounding love in what I shared.
I am saved because I believe Jesus, the second person of the blessed Trinity, died for my sins. I freely cooperate with His free gift of salvation. I am in love with Jesus, worship Jesus, live for Jesus…and yet I am a Catholic. Crazy, huh?
In Christ,
Teri
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Are you born from above Teri?
If you love Jesus, why do you sit under false teaching? Why do you submit yourself to error, to idolatrous worship of Mary, and calling a sinful man ‘holy Father’? Do you know what Jesus taught about this? Matthew 23:9, ‘”Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”
I have seen pictures of people kissing this guy’s ring, like he is their ‘god’.
Your statement, ‘I am in love with Jesus, worship Jesus, live for Jesus…and yet I am a Catholic. Crazy, huh?’ is hard to believe, for if you loved Christ, you would flee from the dead religion you belong to and their apostate teachings.
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As a devout Roman Catholic who lives in Waco (David Crowder’s hometown), I am overjoyed at the thought that Crowder has so much love and respect for Catholicism. I am, however, utterly disappointed that so many people should think this qualifies him as un-Christian.
It appears that many here believe the Roman Catholic Church is varying degrees of corrupt, from “misguided” all the way to “Whore of Babylon and spawn of Satan.” I have a challenge for anyone who believes such things about the Catholic Church.
I challenge opponents of the Catholic faith to do one thing: to prove that they have an accurate understanding of any single given doctrine of the Catholic faith. Notice I am not saying “disprove a doctrine.“ Before you can disprove something, you must show that you actually know what it is and how it works first. I would be willing to bet that no opponents of Catholicism on this site can actually demonstrate that they know what Catholics believe on any given essential Catholic doctrine. I’ll even help you get started by nipping some popular misconceptions in the bud:
– We don’t worship Mary.
– We don’t worship statues.
– We don’t believe you can earn your way to heaven by good works.
– We don’t believe the Pope is anything more than a human being, and we do not worship him.
– We don’t believe that anything or anyone other than Jesus Christ is the way to heaven.
You should be aware beforehand that many words bear a different definition to Catholics than they do to non-Catholics. For example, we believe in prayer to saints; however, “prayer” does not necessarily mean “worship” to a Catholic like it typically does to a non-Catholic. If you see a quote or teaching that seems to fly in the face of Christianity, the problem may actually simply be with your understanding of what is meant; do not assume that all words mean to a Catholic precisely what they mean to you.
Good luck to anyone who takes up this challenge.
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David Casper,
Your history and the theology of the religion in which you are trapped can be rewritten each and every day, but it will not change the facts. Your final statement about “words bear a different definition to Catholics than they do to non-Catholics” is definitely true. The religion of Rome seeks to ever redefine itself in order to make it more like true Biblical Christianity which it will never be able to accomplish. Your priests, cardinals, and popes are in disagreement with what you profess to believe about the Romish church. Sadly, they will rarely spend time speaking about such in their homilies at Sunday Mass when they recrucify the Lord of Glory again and again.
As for knowing about Roman Catholicism, my family was saved out of the insidious evil of Rome after being trapped for generations. I know the truth and cannot be blinded again.
Re: your “challenge” – Has already been more than addressed in other posts here. I would recommend you take the time to read through them carefully before continuing to comment. You will find answers you do not like, but they are truth from the Word of God. We will pray that you will be given a heart to learn the truth before it is eternally too late.
TJM
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TJM: You said, “Your history and the theology of the religion in which you are trapped can be rewritten each and every day, but it will not change the facts.” There is not one single time in history when the Roman Catholic Church has ever changed a doctrine. Not one. Disciplines (a.k.a. the laws, policies, and common practices of the Church, like the language of the Mass and priestly celibacy) have changed throughout the centuries, but never doctrines (such as the doctrine of the Trinity, the resurrection of the body, the Immaculate Conception, etc.).
You said, “Your priests, cardinals, and popes are in disagreement with what you profess to believe about the Romish church.” Some might be in disagreement, that’s true (although the vast, overwhelming majority are not in disagreement at all). But do all of the members of the church you attend believe the same thing about everything? Try raising the question of infant baptism, or perhaps the question of whether it’s acceptable to use repetition in prayer, among your friends at your church and see if they all agree on everything. You will likely find at least a couple of people who don’t agree with the others. The point is, whether the individual members do or do not agree with/practice all of a church’s teachings is irrelevant to what that church’s teachings actually ARE.
You said, “Sadly, they will rarely spend time speaking about such in their homilies at Sunday Mass when they recrucify the Lord of Glory again and again.” I have two points to bring up here. One is that I have heard these issues arise over and over again in homilies from many priests in many parishes, so I really don’t know what you’re talking about. Second, and more importantly, you have demonstrated in this sentence that you are ignorant of actual Catholic teaching; the Catholic Church does NOT teach that Christ is “recrucified” at Mass, and in fact the Church believes such a teaching is grave heresy. What the Catholic Church teaches is that in the Mass, we revisit and re-present the original Sacrifice on the Cross. It’s not a re-crucifixion of Christ, it’s the one and only original Crucifixion, made present in front of us. If it helps, think of it like a time warp – we jump back in time, through the pages of history, and experience the events of Calvary firsthand. Time means nothing to God; He can bend time back on itself if He so wishes, and that’s what He does in the Mass.
I’m sorry you and your family feel that the Roman Catholic Church is evil and insidious. My heart hurts over your departure from the Church. I will pray for you and your family, that wherever you go, you may find fulfillment in the grace of Christ. Just remember that, if you want to come home, the door will always be open.
Lastly, I did stay up late, spending a long time reading through all the comments, and not once did any of the opponents of the Catholic faith here manage to accurately represent Catholic doctrine. That’s why I issued the challenge in the first place. It has not yet been done. The most egregious misrepresentation I saw, or at least the one that stood out to me most, was JcVindica’s statement, “[Catholics’] main point of departure (i.e. believing in sacraments for salvation instead of God’s pure grace through Christ)” – and JcVindica was even trying to be courteous to the Catholic faith in their comment. This is a grossly inaccurate statement, however, because the Catholic Church’s teachings clearly state that the Sacraments are a means by which the pure grace of Christ is applied to us. In Catholic theology, the Sacraments and grace are not diametrically opposed; on the contrary, the Sacraments are a channel of grace. This is, of course, only one of many examples, but it is the one that hurt my heart the most.
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David
You state “because the Catholic Church’s teachings clearly state that the Sacraments are a means by which the pure grace of Christ is applied to us. In Catholic theology, the Sacraments and grace are not diametrically opposed; on the contrary, the Sacraments are a channel of grace.” This is one of the many places the Catholic church are in error and teach error. Grace is not attainable or channeled by any sacrament, nor any work of man. Grace is given by God as a gift, to whom He chooses for eternal life – “for by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man boast” – Ephesians 2:8-9
The Catholic church teaches you attain God’s grace by something you do, something you partake of, this is false teaching; this false teaching leads to robbing God of glory, which He clearly states in Isaiah He will NOT share with anyone, not even the RCC, “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8
There is another problem with the RCC, their images, statues of Mary, which God forbids giving praise to.
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David,
Your next to the last statement reveals volumes about what you believe. “The Sacraments are a channel of grace.”
Sad because the religion of Rome has changed doctrine (which simply means teaching), just as they change the Word of God to suit them. The Catholic system of religion does NOT line up with Scripture.
As an example, we could begin with Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by GRACE are you saved through faith, and NOT of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man (read Catholics) should boast.”
TJM
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David said: “Just remember that, if you want to come home, the door will always be open.”
It’s good to know that the doors are always open at the religious brothel – for those who want to commit whoredom.
Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.”
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I honestly don’t expect this to be posted. But I have spent the last hour pouring over this extensive missive with increasing sadness and despair.
Let me be 100% honest up front. I am a once-follower of Christ, now atheist. I realize that makes my opinion on the topic questionable at best; irrelevant at worst. I am sure that there are people in this conversation that would point to my apostasy as a clear indication of an incorrect understanding of the faith. If so, you don’t need to read any further. I have nothing to offer you of any value.
But let me offer an observation, if you don’t mind.
You’re not talking about Lady GaGa. You’re not talking about Justin Timberlake, or Usher, or Rhianna. And certainly you’re not talking about any of the black/death metal musicians who may actually believe in theistic satanism (there are a few…a very, VERY small few, may I add).
You’re talking about David Crowder. A Texas church-boy who started the band as a worship ensemble. Not exactly a posterchild for hedonistic worldliness or wild-eyed liberalism.
And in reading through to the bottom of the page, I don’t really even see any disagreement on the fundamentals of the Christian faith between Crowder and the many posters. It’s the doctrines and the applications of the faith that seem to be stirring up a lot of passion.
And words. Big, loaded words. Like “Apostate”. “Heresy”. “False Teaching”. I would even go so far as to characterize some responses as enthusiastic personal attacks couched as ‘correction’.
People…you are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. And taking chunks out of each other in the process.
If this is how you treat each other; you who are in agreeance on most topics; how can you expect to be taken seriously by those who really DO have different worldviews? If the artistic opinion of a single songwriter is enough to cause division within the church, what does that say about the strength of that body?
‘The World’ is often used as a catch-all to describe the attitudes and constructs found in opposition to Christian philosophy and belief. But THIS world is full of hurting, lonely, sad people. If a rigid appeal to Sola Scriptura is the only balm you can give to soothe this ache, then can you really be surprised when people look elsewhere?
What, may I ask, is more important: proclaiming the gospel of light and life, or being ‘right’? Regrettably, from the tone of these responses, I conclude the latter is more important to the children of the cross.
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Thank you so much for posting the info regarding Charles and John Wesley and their supposed use of drinking song tunes for their hymns. This is something we were taught when we first became Christians (35 yrs ago) and I have never heard the truth until today! I have just recently become aware of the emergent/contemplative “situation” that is going on and have begun to question EVERYTHING that we have been taught from the “get-go!” I starting seeing some very strange things happening in the church I was attending and because of it, I began to do some research regarding just about everybody and everything, which has exposed some very disturbing people and manifestations (John Crowder – toking Jesus…and many more.) Thanks again for this info.
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I know I am late to this conversation but I would like to say this to A.J.R.
“…For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.” Luke 16:8
I am sure no one will agree with me on this since I am an obviously apostate “Christ Follower”, (I abandoned the word Christian many years ago) but taken in context, this verse illustrates your point perfectly. The fear of a vengeful God has all of these pharisees practicing their craft in an attempt to earn their salvation by proving to God they are adhering to every jot and tittle of “proper” doctrine. It is a pity that they put personal correctness as a starting point. Jesus said the most important thing, and thereby the proper starting point is to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.”
First century Jews understood to START here, love radically, go overboard, make missteps, learn from the journey and then filter all doctrine through this starting point. You know there is this thing called the Holy Spirit that really does guide the steps of those that love God, or at least that is what I find in the totality of scripture.
The westernized “church” instead feels like we must start with doctrinal correctness and personal righteousness. Then, once this is achieved we will be able to properly love God and our neighbor. This is precisely the thought process of the pharisees that Jesus taught against, but then again, these are the flawed observations of an apostate that feels like pouring perfume over the feet of someone I love that has changed my life is the right thing to do even if it risks violating doctrine and decorum.
I am saddened to hear that something has caused you to abandon being a Christ Follower but I imagine the tone of threads like this had something to do with it. I do not know if you will ever read this follow up post but if you do, know you have someone here that loves you and would love to dialog with you about life and love and a Jesus that tangibly and radically loved this poor constantly sinning child of his. NEVER to try to win an argument about whether or not there is a God, but rather to just converse with someone that is a kindred spirit with a different understandings and thoughts.
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Fleebabylon: Please provide additional information to substantiate your claim that the Roman Catholic Church is, in fact, the “whore of Babylon” to which Revelation refers.
________________________________________________________
Lyn: I apologize for answering this so many months after your response. I had entirely forgotten this site existed until I received an automated email informing me of the most recent comments. Please forgive me for my tardiness in responding.
You said, “The Catholic church teaches you attain God’s grace by something you do, something you partake of, this is false teaching.” I agree that such an idea is false teaching – it is complete heresy. After all, “salvation belongs to our God” (Revelation 7:10). However, at no point has the Catholic Church ever taught that idea. If you can point out to me where you find that idea in the Catechism of the Catholic Church or in the writings of the popes and bishops, if you can show me that the Catholic Church teaches such a thing, then I will leave my Church in a heartbeat and come to worship at yours on Sunday.
See, the thing you need to understand is, the Sacraments are not something that WE do. They are not an act of man, but an act of God. There are a couple good phrases to describe the Sacraments in Catholic catechesis: the Sacraments are “an outward sign of an inward grace,” and they are a “physical reality revealing a spiritual reality.” In a Sacrament, God works upon both the soul and body of a sinner, ministering to and redeeming both spirit and flesh. He performs all of this action under His own volition and will, by a supreme and wholly unmerited, undeserved act of grace. Nothing we do could possibly earn it, nor are the Sacraments some kind of magical ritual full of incantations that are meant to “conjure up” God’s grace. I, along with the entire rest of the Catholic Church, wholeheartedly agree that “by grace are you saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”
As for your closing remark about statues of Mary, we do not praise her as we praise God. We give her the honor and reverence that is due to the mother of Jesus; as Jesus honored His mother in accordance with the Ten Commandments, so we honor her as well, in following Christ’s example. As you can see, the same honor and respect for the mother of Jesus happens in Scripture: “In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, ‘Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord'” (Luke 1:39-45). Notice, then, that the honor given to Mary in this Scripture passage is only given on account of her Son, Jesus. That is precisely the context in which we honor Mary as Catholics – because of her Son, Jesus, not because she did anything to be special or worthy apart from Him.
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AJR: I must say, as a Christian (and, more specifically, a Catholic), I love your response. You have highlighted one of the most painful and powerful struggles of Christianity today: showing forth Love to the rest of the world. We may be acting on behalf of belief in Christ, but if we do not act with the LOVE of Christ, then we are merely preaching the Gospel with our lips and destroying it with our actions; we are taking the beautiful symphony of Christ’s Love and scratching the needle across the record.
I agree wholeheartedly with SimpleM’s comment as well (although I do think the term “Christian” is not to be abandoned, but rather redeemed). I have come across so many Christians who think that one must be holy to approach God, when in reality one must approach God in order to be holy. As an atheist, AJR, you still seem to get the point of Christianity better than many Christians: as you said, it is meant to be a “balm you can give to soothe this ache.” That is a wonderful way to describe the beauty of the Christian faith, and it shows an understanding transcending the shallow version of Christianity that is being peddled to the world nowadays.
AJR, it really seems that you do not so much have a problem with Christianity as with Christians. You understand the purpose of the doctrine, but you recoil (and, sometimes, rightly so) at the bitter people who do such a terrible job of proclaiming that “Gospel of light and life” to the world. I know that I don’t know you, and so perhaps it is not my place to suggest such a thing, but I feel I must try: Is it possible that you might still believe in Christ? Is it possible that your profession of atheism is a reaction not to theology, but to the sinners who hypocritically teach others about sainthood? If so, then your objection is not an objection to beliefs, but rather the same problem that crucified Christ to begin with – people not living in accordance with those beliefs – and you may want to reconsider your position in light of that. Should you leave Christ merely because His followers fail to live up to His standard? They always have, and always will; does that make Christ wrong?
God bless you, my brother (or sister?), and I will pray for you.
________________________________________________
TheJungleMissionary: Please read my above response to Lyn; your concerns are similarly addressed in that response.
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David Casper,
I understand how the busyness of life can cause us to forget certain things; with that said, let me address your comment directed towards me…
You seem to contradict yourself in stating that you agree salvation is of grace, not something you do, then you go on to defend the sacraments. You say “They are not an act of man, but an act of God. There are a couple good phrases to describe the Sacraments in Catholic catechesis: the Sacraments are “an outward sign of an inward grace,” and they are a “physical reality revealing a spiritual reality.” – can you show me from the word of God where this is so?
You also claim you do not worship Mary and yet, you give her ‘honor and reverence’, again, I ask for chapter and verse that states we must honor and revere Mary.
Have you read this – http://defendingcontending.com/2012/07/08/debate-mariology-who-is-mary-according-to-scripture/
or this – http://defendingcontending.com/2012/02/05/the-blasphemies-of-romes-priesthood/
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. – Ephesians 2:8-9
What are you trusting in for salvation?
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Unworthy, asking a Catholic to quote you scripture and verse to support our belief lacks a clear understanding of our position. Either that or it begets an immediate assumption that your idea of solo scriptura is agreed upon by both parties, and it is not. We do not believe in scripture alone and therefore have no need to reply to you in the manner you so wish in order to prove the truths of our statements. however since you live by the belief of Solo Scriptura, can you tell me where in the bible it says that the Bible alone is Solely authoritative in regards to Faith and Morals.
But to humor you here is an example of what is meant in the sacrament being a physical reality revealing a spiritual reality
In regards to the sacrament of Baptism
4 So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father’s glorious power, we too should begin living a new life.
to humor you further, here are a few bible verses to consider regarding Mary
Mat 2 11
The magi bow down in front of both mary and jesus with Jesus being the object of the homage
Luke 1:28 – “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God).
Mary is the only one in scripture who is titled Gratia Plena or “kecharitomene”
Luke 1:42 – “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus.
Luke 1:48 – Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed,
Do you call her blessed? How often and with what position of heart
I trust Jesus for my salvation, by Grace alone.
But these response are not really relevant because the hermeneutics you bring to this post and this web page that assists you in understanding these versus will not allow you to interpret them as we do which is why we point to both Scripture and tradition and not Solo scriptura.
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unworthy1: Thank you for your timely and respectful response.
First, I did not contradict myself in saying that salvation is of grace while defending the Sacraments. The point of my statement was to say that the Sacraments themselves are “of grace,” that they are a means of receiving that grace by which we are saved.
Yes, I can show you these things in the Word of God. I can point out the institution of any of the seven Sacraments in Scripture to you, but for brevity and clarity’s sake, I will begin with the Eucharist: “And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood'” (Luke 22:19-20, ESV – let me know if you’d prefer that I use a different translation), Notice how Jesus specifically says these things ARE His Body and Blood, which He told us were the means to salvation in John 6. He does not say they “signify” or “represent” His Flesh and Covenant, but rather, they ARE those things. Paul confirms that idea as well: ” I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Corinthians 10:15-16) And again, in the next chapter: “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Corinthians 11:27-29).
If you’d like, I can expand further on the Eucharist in Scripture, or I can proceed on to show the presence and divine nature of the other six Sacraments.
You asked me for the chapter and verse that states we should honor and reverence Mary. Here it is: “And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name'” (Luke 1:46-49). We call her blessed, as Scripture dictates, but only because God chose to work so mightily in her; she has no special merit apart from His grace.
I followed both the links you provided. The first, the debate on Mary with the priest, was just painful to watch. Although the priest knew what he was talking about, he was unfortunately horribly inept at debate (and intensely boring to listen to), and thus could not provide a good framework for discussion or a good rebuttal. It’s unfortunate that he didn’t quite have the skill set necessary to adequately handle a live TV debate, but oh well. All of the Protestant debater’s questions can be answered very solidly, and in far less time and talk.
The second link, the one on the priesthood, provided no argument against the idea of consecrated priesthood. It did, however, manage to take two quotes completely out of their rightful context. I’m not certain of the origin of the first quote, from Fr. John O’Brien, but I think it comes from the book “The Faith of Millions,” which I have not read. (You should tell Defending, Contending to begin citing their sources.) It is a massive blasphemy when taken out of its proper context, that’s true. However, I imagine the surrounding passages would illuminate the quote with a better understanding. I can say that, in actual Catholic theology, Christ humbles Himself by stooping low, of His own free will, to act in and through the priest in the administration of Sacraments. In hyperbolic or poetic language, I can see how this could be rendered “God obeying man’s command,” but in actual, practical theology, that’s not really what happens.
I am trusting wholeheartedly in God’s grace for salvation. I have no difficulty with believing that quote from Ephesians. I’d like to ask you, what is your response to this statement? “A person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
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Kurt said: “asking a Catholic to quote you scripture and verse to support our belief lacks a clear understanding of our position”
Statement of the year. My family and I were just talking about the great whore called roman catholicism and how John marveled at such a thing (revelation 17). How could people believe such an unholy abomination when they have the word of God that clearly reveals it for what it is? It is no suprise that ungodly men do many ungodly things, but to really believethey are doing it in the name of Jesus is a marval. Reminds me of a chick tract titled why is mary crying. Because the mystery religion of babylon uses her as a main figure in their satanic abominations.
Jesus Christ is coming back to judge romes leaders and cast them into the lake of fire. Flee from them or you will share in their punishment.
-Jim
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fleebabylon,
Just trying to help you sharpen your skills in working with us catholics 🙂 Glad I could be of help.
I that you come understand our mindset better in order to witness to us better. Please know that It is because we love the bible so much that we reject sola Scriptura as being unbiblical. No where in the Bible does the bible say that the Bible alone is the sole authority on Faith. I am just trying to point out to you and others that asking us to quote scripture and verse to you regarding the faith is a useless exercise because it presumes something that is fundamentally not there. It assumes a belief in Sola scriptura, and yet we reject that belief as unbiblical and we trust in Scripture and Tradition hand in hand. Additionally, we do believe that the doctrines of our faith are put forth in God’s word both explicitly and implicitly. But when we do quote scripture and verse to support our beliefs, even that is not helpful because we look at God’s word through the lense of the church’s infallibility and you look through a different lense, a fallible lense. And then you ask us to trust your interpretation of the Word?
I do thank you for the love and kindness you show to me and other catholics here though.
John 13:35
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves.
Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
1 Peter 1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.
Was it your intention to witness to me by your sincere love for us? your deep love from the heart?
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What is my response to ‘ “A person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Since I know the word of God does not contradict, and I know all our works are like filthy rags {Isaiah 64:6}; so the text cannot mean what the RCC claims. The works born again believers do, they do because they have been gifted with faith to believe, not as a means of being saved, but as a result of God saving them. God is the one who ordains the ‘works’ we who are regenerated do – Eph_2:10 “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
We also know works do not save, as Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly teaches “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
As for the Lord’s supper, Christ speaks symbolically and tells us to do this ‘in remembrance of Him’. It isn’t His actual body and blood, we know this because the Bible clearly forbids the ‘eating of blood’ – Leviticus 17:10-12 Why was this forbidden? Commentary from John Gill states ‘ the blood that maketh the atonement for the soul’. God’s word does not contradict, so when reading about the eating His flesh and drinking His blood, one must understand this isn’t literal, for Christ would never go against the holy Scriptures and cause someone to sin.
Let’s briefly discuss Mary and this text ” ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name”. First, note Mary says “God my Savior”, so Mary, like all of us, was a sinner. Next, isn’t all whom God saves ‘blessed’? Mary is no different in that respect, she was a sinner in need of salvation, and God showed favor by saving her and choosing her to be the earthly mother of Christ in His humanity. Is Mary the mother of God the Son as He sits exalted at the right hand of the Father now? NO! God’s existence has no beginning and no end, so how could the RCC claim Mary is the mother of God? You have to look at her earthly motherhood in the proper perspective, she was the mother of Christ when He was in human form, in the flesh. There is no mom and dad, sister and brother, husband and wife type of relationships in heaven, it isn’t like we know it here on earth. In heaven there are saints, angels, cherubim, etc. There is no mention in scripture of a ‘family’ type gathered in heaven like we know on earth. Christ is Mary’s Lord, her God, her Savior. Nowhere do we find in Scripture that Mary is to be exalted, prayed to {hail Mary}, or considered ‘equal’ to God who is Holy, Holy, Holy.
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<>
New International Version (©1984)
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
That about says it. The RCC goes WAY BEYOND what is written. They have added all sorts of extra-biblical doctrine like the infallibility of the pope. This doctrine was defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1869-1870.
I was a die hard Catholic. I’m talking Vatican Police. Franciscan University of Steubenville and an avid pope follower and consecrated to Mary.
I was also a great rule follower and would never miss a holy day or eat meat on Friday during Lent because I knew that meant “MORTAL SIN.” A mortal sin must be forgiven by a priest otherwise if you die, down you go to Hell. I was very careful, like not “stepping on a crack or you brake your mother’s back” on the sidewalk as a kid. I was starting to question all these things and started reading reformed theology. About 30 books in one year. It was then I started to understand the clear gospel that was so hidden from me all of my life even though I was a very “good” Catholic and did what the church said to the letter. I did not however, have freedom in Christ, nor could I ever have assurance of being saved. You see, I hoped for purgatory (where I would suffer for my sins) and then eventually heaven hoping the Masses on earth would “get me out.”
No. Not the gospel indeed. And so the more I detached from the RCC, the more I embraced the true gospel, realizing there is NOTHING I CAN DO TO SAVE MYSELF. It was then, I understood what freedom in Christ really means. My husband and I trusted Christ alone for salvation and rejoice in what He has done for us. We were in bondage to the RCC, but now we are free in Him and will not go back.
Galatians 5:1
New Living Translation (NLT)
Freedom in Christ
5 So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
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Lyn (et al):
The proper context of the second chapter of James’ Epistle is a comparison of living faith vs dead faith (and is a text I struggled to understand for years).
Because the question, “What about James 2?” comes up so frequently with works-righteousness proponents (and as a help to others who may be where I was a few years ago), I put together an article on the matter (using scripture to interpret scripture) that I think completely answers the erroneous charge by those that “James was teaching works righteousness.”
Please take a moment and read it. I am confident that it will answer many questions. The article can be found here:
http://defendingcontending.com/2011/01/17/if-james-contradicts-paul-then-james-also-contradicted-himself/
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Unworthy,
you said
“Is Mary the mother of God the Son as He sits exalted at the right hand of the Father now? NO! God’s existence has no beginning and no end, so how could the RCC claim Mary is the mother of God?”
The term theotokos, or Mother of God was proclaimed by the council of ephesus in 431 in defense against the heresy of Nestorianism which asserted that Mary Gave birth to just the Man Jesus Christ and not God. This denied the Hypostatic union and in asserting Mary as being merely Christokos and not Theotokos, it undermined the proper understanding that the incarnation was the birth of Jesus Christ, true God and True man. To say otherwise was to teach something incorrect about Jesus.
Surely you don’t believe the heretical doctrines of Netorius that would assert Mary only gave birth to the human nature and not the divine would you?
This doctrine by the way, makes no claims that Mary gave birth to the eternal nature of God the Father, but rather the God born of our time, Jeus, at the incarnation. To assert otherwise is merely a misunderstanding of this teaching.
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Unworthy said,
As for the Lord’s supper, Christ speaks symbolically and tells us to do this ‘in remembrance of Him’. It isn’t His actual body and blood, we know this because the Bible clearly forbids the ‘eating of blood’ – Leviticus 17:10-12 Why was this forbidden? Commentary from John Gill states ‘ the blood that maketh the atonement for the soul’. God’s word does not contradict, so when reading about the eating His flesh and drinking His blood, one must understand this isn’t literal, for Christ would never go against the holy Scriptures and cause someone to sin.
so do you think it is a sin today to eat blood, blood sausage, or blood putting?
Acts chapter 10,
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
Rom 14,
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself.
If nothing is unclean then that includes blood.
There is a difference between the old and and new testament unworthy. Blood was prohibited in the old testament so that man would not seek like from the blood of animals, the blood signified life. But now Christ is our life and in the new testament, all is clean both peter and paul tell us so.
Unlike The 10 Commandments, the disciplinary laws of the OT were temporary, awaiting their fulfillment in Christ. Having in view the New Covenant of Jesus’ Blood, these old disciplinary laws, customs and rituals were designed by God to prepare his people for the New Covenant (Gal. 3:26-29). This prohibition was a disciplinary law abolished by Christ when He initiated the new and everlasting covenant in His Blood.
If it was just a symbolic message why would so many disciples leave him saying this was too hard for them. What is hard about a mere symbolic message? Your assertions just don’t hold up in the light of God’s word.
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“so do you think it is a sin today to eat blood, blood sausage, or blood putting?”
That is NOT what we are even discussing here, you are going down rabbit trails. We are speaking of the blood of Christ.
Mary gave birth to God in the flesh, His divine nature did NOT come from her.
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Pilgrim,
Thank you for the link, I will read it a bit later.
Kurt,
concerning John 6:53, “”Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.” I will use commentary from John Gill, ‘ He did not mean that this should be understood literally, for it was never done, and it is absurd to suppose that it was intended to be so understood. Nothing can possibly be more absurd than to suppose that when he instituted the Supper, and gave the bread and wine to his disciples, they literally ate his flesh and drank his blood. Who can believe this? There he stood, a living man – his body yet alive, his blood flowing in his veins; and how can it be believed that this body was eaten and this blood drunk? Yet this absurdity must be held by those who hold that the bread and wine at the communion are “changed into the body, blood, and divinity of our Lord.” So it is taught in the decrees of the Council of Trent; and to such absurdities are men driven when they depart from the simple meaning of the Scriptures and from common sense. It may be added that if the bread and wine used in the Lord’s Supper were not changed into his literal body and blood when it was first instituted, they have never been since.
The Lord Jesus would institute it just as he meant it should be observed, and there is nothing now in that ordinance which there was not when the Saviour first appointed it. His body was offered on the cross, and was raised up from the dead and received into heaven. Besides, there is no evidence that he had any reference in this passage to the Lord’s Supper. That was not yet instituted, and in that there was no literal eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood. The plain meaning of the passage is, that by his bloody death – his body and his blood offered in sacrifice for sin – he would procure pardon and life for man.’
You also say ‘But now Christ is our life and in the new testament, all is clean both peter and paul tell us so’. {where did they specifically state it was okay to eat blood?}’This prohibition was a disciplinary law abolished by Christ when He initiated the new and everlasting covenant in His Blood.’ Can you provide chapter and verse from the N.T. to verify your claim?
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Sorry I was confused when you were talking about the levitical prohibition against eating blood.
You said
“It isn’t His actual body and blood, we know this because the Bible clearly forbids the ‘eating of blood’ – Leviticus 17:10-12”
But I see I misunderstood you and that you do agree this OT prohibition does not apply today to blood. Can you explain how it does not apply today to Blood pudding today, but did in fact apply to Jesus? I think I am still a bit confused on your argument. Sorry for any rabbit trailing and don’t feel obliged to answer.
And you are right in the sense that Mary’s did not BEGET Jesus divine Nature, His Divine nature was eternally begotten of God the Father, but Mary did in fact give birth to 1 person, 2 natures, at the incarnation. This is what is called the Hypostatic union: 1 person, 2 natures, both human and divine and in that sense she is the Mother of God. That is what the council was trying to clarify in its teaching in opposition to those who would say it was only possible for her to give birth to the human nature of Christ, which is the heresy of Nestorianism. Are you a Nestorianist? Do you reject the teachings of the Council of Ephesus?
From what is sounds like, you are rejecting a belief about a doctrine that asserts more than the actual doctrine proclaims. But don’t worry, that is often typical when it comes to such matters. It sounds like, regarding this point, you and I agree about Mary to be honest with you. As a catholic I do not believe Mary Produced God, in the sense that God originated within her. That would make Mary equal with God and she is not. She is merely human. But she is Theotokos 🙂
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Kurt said “Was it your intention to witness to me by your sincere love for us? your deep love from the heart?”
The scriptures you posted have to do with how brothers treat other brothers. If you stay in the roman catholic church you can be sure you are not my brother but a child of your father the devil and his mystery religion of babylon. If you truly are my brother then I have shared the biblical call to you in this later hour of time and one day you will thank me for it.
Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;
There is nothing unloving I have written, come out of her. Not so you can be reformed, or protestant, but to prove you are a true Christian.
-Jim
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Jim, thanks for your explanation, I disagree with your interpretation of those passages.
When I read the epistle of John, It says to be imitators of God. If you are imitating your God, then I will indeed pray for you.
In the Gospel of Luke it says
Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
If I am wicked, and the Lord shows Kindness to me, maybe you should imitate him and do the same.
I am also troubled by understanding how the greatest commandment given is about loving God and loving your neighbor and yet you make a distinction regarding your christian brother that I don’t see being made in Luke.
Luke 10:
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
If you interpret the other scripture versus speaking about how to love as applying only to your Christian brothers, then I fear you are taking them out of context of the greatest commandment given are following in the footsteps the priest or Levite in the next parable.
___________________________________________________
unworthy, I disagree with the interpretation put forth above that Jesus did not mean what he said about drinking his blood. I actually believe the words, “My flesh is real food and my blood is real drink” Similar to how I believe it when James says “We are not justified by faith alone.” I simply believe God’s word as it is written.
In regards to your questions “his prohibition was a disciplinary law abolished by Christ when He initiated the new and everlasting covenant in His Blood.Can you provide chapter and verse from the N.T. to verify your claim?”
I would refer you to Hebrews 8 9 and 10, specifically, 8:13 & 10: 8 – 10. But I am not sure how prooftexting helps us much since we can’t agree on how to intepret God’s word, (we can’t even agree on what books constitutes God’s word). Scripture is hard to understand unworthy, and I need someone to guide me. If I am left on my own it is very likely I will twist God’s word to fit what I would most prefer it to mean.
Jim, I have one more question for you.
Has God already Decided my fate? Meaning is it possible that God desires that I go to hell and will withhold his grace from me so that I am actually unable to know him? As a Catholic I believe strongly in predestination and in the Elect, but I am wondering if you are able to say with certainty that God desires to Save me? Since you are telling me to come out of Babylon, does your God also give me the ability, absolutely, without question, and with a sufficient measure of Grace to actually come out of her? Thanks in advance for your kindness in answering me.
Kurt
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Kurt.
I find it bizzare that you except literally that in John 6 Jesus meant to eat Hos actual flesh. So what about Him saying he is an actual vine or door? No those are figures of speech? Or what about Him as Living Water? Is he a pool to dive into ?
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It is pretty obvious that kfilla is not budging from his position and has not budged since his previous attempts at Romanist apologetics months back when he previously camped on DefCon.
And similar to this current Romanist apologetic flare up, the previous one saw several Romanist apologists converging at the same time on various issues dealing with Romanism too. Makes me wonder if we’re on a rotation and if it’s our month again.
Anyway, I believe it is time to end this trivial debate with kfilla (et al) since he rejects the perspicuity and sufficiency of the very source of truth given by God to mankind (the scriptures) then conveniently appeals to that same source to tell us we’re wrong (all the while, of course, showing no regard for proper biblical hermeneutics).
Now I know kfilla will cry foul, but to continue to argue about the colors of a rainbow with a man who is blind is simply an exercise in futility. And in this case enough has already been said on these matters and he rejects it. Additionally there is plenty of information available to him if he were to chose to truly seek the truth in the future.
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Amen Pilgrim.
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I don’t doubt that this dude is papist I wonder why he promote Catholic theology which contridct the God’s word
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Sueliz1 i appreciate your story of conversion. I truly believe many catholics are lost/unsaved. Just as many protestants/baptist/lutherans, etc are also lost and don’t know it.
I find it odd that people get so confused about the bible and how we are to act, worship, etc.
SIMPLE.
Realize you arent good enough. Then ask God for help. (since only He/Jesus can give it)
Love God, (obey Him)
Love everyone else. (want what is best for them, and help them)
That is really all there is too it. Follow that and everything else will fall into place. Sure we will disagree about a great number of things. Paul and Peter disagreed sometimes. It happens. We don’t have all the answers, BUT we have all the answers we need.
As for this discussion about David Crowder. Well, I was once told that you don’t follow the messenger, but discern the message. Follow God. Let us assume DC is a satanist or atheist. OK, fine. I can still listen and sing his songs to the God in heaven that loved me enough to die for me. I can praise Him with songs and sing about Him being holy. I am not trying to live my life like DC. But I will sing to my God. And not every song I can sing to Him has to be a hymn from the 1700s or 1800s. The piano and organ are not the only instruments God listens to. I sit with my guitar sometimes and sing songs that may very well have been written by someone who will be in hell when all is said and done. That doesnt mean I am not singing truth, praise, thanks to my God.
It is the same issue I have with people who somehow believe on the KJV of the bible is somehow the true word and everything else is somehow corrupted. I guess they think the KJV was written by Luke, Paul, and the crew in English.
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Hello. I wanted to ask for a clarification of your post here. In one or two sentences please state your objection as clearly as possible. An evangelical knee jerk reaction to Catholicism is not by nature a good thing. I’m not Catholic in the tradition of practicing faith, nonetheless, there is great help within the broken system. Thanks for your time.
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Like Justin, I would also like to know precisely what the issue is? And, I have another question as well.
To what depth are we to really understand our Lord? For me more the better! However, lets say you go to some remote village that has never heard of Jesus and what He has done for us. Do you simply tell them about God’s way of salvation in about a half hour or so. OR, do you dive deep into theology for two months??? What depth really matters? The Bible alone.
Is it possible to over analyze? Is it possible that the theology master that replies to this post, will slam/analyze my comments? The theology master will show the world how feeble minded I am, and in turn make them feel more spiritual/superior? That is how I came across when I first read the Crowder article.
My sister is a member of Lutheran Missouri Synod, and they seem to make things way more complex than it really needs to be!
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Roman Catholics teach a different Gospel, so Galatians 1 which calls them accursed is pretty clear. The “veneration” of Mary (and praying to her) and others is not taught in Scripture, and is idolatry.
I think those two sentences should cover it pretty well. We could add extra-biblical authority granted to the popes, exaltation of church tradition to equal authority with the Scriptures, the confessional booth, indulgences, the idolatry of the Mass, the priest/laity divide, calling priests “Father”, etc.
It isn’t “knee jerk reaction” to say that this has become a religion of human traditions that has drifted so far from Scripture that it can no longer be called Christianity at all, and that the command to “Come out from among them, and be separate” has to be obeyed.
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Kurt, (kfilla) (not attacking you) here is your question,
“Has God already Decided my fate? Meaning is it possible that God desires that I go to hell and will withhold his grace from me so that I am actually unable to know him? As a Catholic I believe strongly in predestination and in the Elect, but I am wondering if you are able to say with certainty that God desires to Save me?”
There is one question that you must answer yourself to get the answer you are looking for. Knowing that God is sovereign over salvation (Romans 9, John 6), do you love the biblical Christ at all? If so, you only do because He placed that love and faith into your heart. Start there. But if you continue to desire the truth of the bible, you will see Paul battling the Judaizers in Galatians. They basically said, “If you claim to be true christians, then you must believe in Christ AND be circumcised.” Paul’s answer to them was, “I wish that they would emasculate themselves!” The Gospel is Christ ALONE has done what we could not do. He took our place in receiving the curse of the law. Our filthy account was totally set on him, while His perfect account is set upon us. (THis is the protestant position called “double imputation” or double forensic transfer, vs. the Catholic position of “Infusion”). Paul’s point was that we cannot add to it. The best book I’ve ever read in understanding this biblical point was a children’s book (I know, i know, don’t laugh) by R.C. Sproul called “The Priest With Dirty Clothes”. Please check it out.
We are contaminated with sin, so if we add to the finished work of Christ, we actually take away from it. Does that make sense? (seriously asking). God Bless you brother.
please email me if you would like. jeffcunn.worship@att.net
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” I’m not Catholic in the tradition of practicing faith, nonetheless, there is great help within the broken system. ”
Something I recently wrote on the subject about a christian acquaintance who had the same feelings as you. In Christ -Jim
I can make no apology for clearly stating that catholicism is the devils religion. It is the harlot impostor of the bride of Christ, a modern version of the ancient religion of babylon, its head is the antichrist, its false priesthood filled with vile sexual immorality, its worship of mary and prayers to the dead are idolatry, its mass is an abomination to God, its communion a mockery of the body of Christ, and its history is filled with the shedding of true saints blood. It damns men to hell by selling them a false christ, a false atonement, and a false sense of peace with God through an unclean altar.
With such an unholy abomination that my Lord Jesus Christ hates I make no terms of peace. To those who call themselves my brethren and think that their acceptance of such a hellish organization makes them more loving than I am… I make this charge. You have been deceived into a state of drunkenness by the golden cup of her abominations, indirectly lead other men into damnation, and are in great danger of judgment yourself. In the last days God has sent his angel to call men out of her midst, so why would anyone who loves Jesus comfort those who are still within her grasp?
Unity you say? What unity has Christ with the devil? Please think about this dear brother, dear sister.
Revelation 18: After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast. For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.” Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
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M Owens — yes, it is possible to over-analyse. Faith is simple and childlike. On the other hand, Hebrews strongly rebuke to those who should be mature and aren’t yet.
One qualification of church leaders is “vigilant” (I Timothy 3). In Paul’s farewell instructions to elders at Ephesus (Acts 20), his emphasis was to watch for false teachers. It is right to analyse David Crowder’s behaviour. (It is also right to analyse your own comments, and one can do so without calling you feeble-minded, etc.)
As noted in my comment immediately after yours, the Roman Catholic Church advocates many false teachings, some condemned in the strongest terms in Scripture. Christians should have nothing to do with them, and should not do anything that in the least gives the impression that this is a valid form of “Christianity.”
David Crowder’s actions described here are revealing. Either he is a false teacher who is intentionally “providing aid and comfort to the enemy,” or (more likely) he lacks three things: 1) enough doctrinal substance to recognise Catholicism’s errors 2) enough vigilance to care who he hangs with 3) spiritual leaders whom he will follow who have enough doctrinal substance and vigilance to warn him.
Thus it is very, very unwise for any believer to allow themselves to be influenced by him. People will grow to love his music, and because of the powerful hold music gains on our affections, they will cease to be concerned or vigilant about what he is advocating. Yet, here is clear evidence that he is not careful about what he advocates. He is not a sound leader that should be followed.
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Thank you for your response! And, thank you for simplifying the topic. I agree with what you are saying, it makes sense! However, I will continue to consider David Crowder one my favorite artists.
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Jeff Cunningham, the issue is not the matter of putting up posts here. Let me share a few reminders, but I would also like to recommend that you read our Rules of Engagement for any further questions or concerns.
1) This is a privately owned blog, and as such, we are free to post or not post accordingly.
2) It is not dishonest or biased to share the truth of God’s Word with those who choose to come here and read.
3) I think many people forget that this is not an open forum whereby everybody can come and share their two cents’ worth of information as a way to reach other individuals.
4) We have made, and will continue to make, decisions that preclude people from stopping by and posting when they obviously have no intention of learning the truth. If a person has a bone to pick over whether David Crowder, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, etc, etc, etc. are biblical teachers, then there are plenty of websites you can go to in order to voice your opinion.
5) This website will NOT condone or endorse or enable others to endorse the heresy that the previously mentioned individuals (among others) hold to and promote. It is doctrines of devils.
I hope this clarifies why your post was probably not allowed to be published.
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God have mercy on us all.
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Wow. I can’t believe this thing is still going. I posted a few comments on this page a year ago, and I am now receiving a slew of emails that tell me the discussion is still going. Don’t know why it has just now resurfaced itself, but I had forgotten it even existed.
What it amounts to is that now I’m getting a bunch of emails regarding comments that tell me that I’m wrong for being Catholic, that my Church is the harlot of Revelation, that I am hellbound if I continue to believe in her doctrines, and that those doctrines are antithetical to the Bible. What I have not yet seen, however, is any anti-Catholic on this forum who has met my single, simple challenge from a year ago: Show me that you actually know and understand any single Catholic doctrine.
Note that I am NOT asking you to prove the doctrine wrong – at least, not yet. Before you can prove something wrong, you have to know what that thing IS, so that you can show precisely WHY it is wrong. Simply pick any Catholic doctrine and show me that you have at least a reasonably good understanding of what that doctrine is, and I will be much more inclined to listen to what you say. If you do not seek to understand me, then why would I seek to understand you when you tell me I’m hellbound? This is how you discuss things with love – as Christ intended. Seek to know and understand the other, and to LOVE them, and to minister to what they need. If you are in fact on the side of Truth, then you will win many more souls with love than with the angry vitriol I have seen in this comment section.
God bless you all, and I await a rational, loving, down-to-earth response.
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that’s so sad that that killed the conversation
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David, we have recently gone through some changes and somehow your comment was completely overlooked. However, your point has actually been addressed a number of times throughout various posts here on Defending Contending regarding the truth of Scripture. Some of the writers and families do come from a Roman Catholic background and so are very familiar not just with what the priest says on Sundays or at Saturday mass, but are also very familiar with what he actually is taught to believe.
We have also proven the various doctrines of the worship of Mary, the adoration of the saints, purgatory, the use of indulgences, etc. are unbiblical and heretical.
The bottom line is that we do not hate Catholics. The warnings we give are the most loving words we can share because every person who ever lives will stand before God in judgment one day. There will be no second chances. What we despise is any false doctrine that leads people astray and into a line of reasoning whereby they think they have a modicum of hope apart from Jesus Christ alone, by grace through faith alone.
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We as Catholics agree with you that the worship of Mary and adoration of the saints are unbiblical as well, Thank you for the straw man. In regards to purgatory, we simply disagree about the biblical texts, 1 cor 3:15. disagreement over interpretations are hardly proof that it is unbiblical, it just proves you disagree or protest, which we understand and respect. We encourage you to follow your conscience. And well, In regards to indulgences, that should be left for another post. You need Milk first.
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Actually, the worship of Mary and adoration of the saints is enough to condemn a person for violation of the commandments of God. The Bible says that we are not to have any other gods before Him, and that we are not permitted to have any graven images. The Roman Catholic system of religion has repeatedly broken and teaches its followers to break the first two commandments every day. By the way, Exodus 20 will show you the second commandment which has been conveniently left out of Catholic churches. It deals with graven images.
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Amen my friend, Amen!!!
Actually, the worship of Mary and adoration of the saints is enough to condemn a person for violation of the commandments of God.
Preach it Brother!
However,
Exodus doesn’t teach that you should not ever create a graven image, but rather that you should not worship them,
In fact in Exodus 25 God Commands moses to create graven images
“And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.”
I doubt Moses worshipped those images and in the same spirit I do not worship any statue of Mary just because they are in our chapel. If a graven image of an Angel is permissible, so is a statue of Mary, or the statue of liberty for that matter. Maybe I am ahead of myself, you don’t think the statue of liberty is not permissable by God do you?
B Allen
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Mark Escalera:
You said, “your point has actually been addressed a number of times throughout various posts here on Defending Contending.” No, it most certainly and emphatically has NOT. I’ve read through many of your articles and watched the videos you guys have linked to, and none of them, not one single article or video, has demonstrated an actual understanding of what Catholics believe. Not one. And the comment boxes are somehow even worse.
As B Allen has already pointed out, you yourself have shown that you do not understand the Catholic doctrines you have referenced in your response to me. You termed our prayers to the saints as “worship” and “adoration,” which is not only untrue, it is the exact polar opposite of the truth in terms of a Catholic understanding of the situation. Worshiping and adoring any saint, even Mary, would be the peak of blasphemy to a Catholic, and is completely unacceptable in Catholic teaching. You also said that Catholicism is “a line of reasoning whereby [Catholics] think they have a modicum of hope apart from Jesus Christ alone.” No Catholic in their right mind would ever say that they have hope apart from Jesus Christ alone. That simply isn’t the teaching of the Church, and it isn’t our understanding of what we do at all.
But perhaps the most laughable thing that you have said is this: “Some of the writers and families do come from a Roman Catholic background and so are very familiar not just with what the priest says on Sundays or at Saturday mass, but are also very familiar with what he actually is taught to believe.” No. No, they are not. They might think they are, but given the evidence that I have seen from this website, they know next to nothing of actual Catholic doctrine. That may or may not be their own fault – their pastor in the Catholic Church may have been a renegade or poor teacher, or perhaps they drew their knowledge of the faith from some other untrustworthy sources, or maybe they were given the accurate truth and simply did not understand what was being said for whatever reason – but I have not yet seen ONE SINGLE accurate representation of Catholic doctrine on this website.
I appreciate the fact that you wish to talk to me about this. I really do. You are concerned for the salvation of my soul, and that is gratifying. Since you are taking time out of your day to respond to me in a much gentler way than some of the insensitive and harsh commenters here, I would think that you probably understand better than they do how to win somebody’s heart. To convert someone’s soul, both heart and mind, you need to seek to understand them as they currently are, to know where their heart and mind are at and what they believe right now. You cannot begin speaking to them with preconceived notions of what you will find when you start probing around in their soul, because the moment you make any kind of assumption about them, you have put them in a labeled box and that’s all you ever see after that point. Your eyes will be closed, and their heart will be closed, and that will be the end of it.
You have made it clear that you do not know what Catholics believe. That’s fine. That can be fixed. What you have not yet made clear is that you have any desire whatsoever to understand what Catholics really believe, even on one single, individual doctrine. So unless you are willing to listen rather than speak, to ask questions rather than make statements, to invest in my salvation rather than tell me I’m hellbound and leave it at that, we’re done here.
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David Casper, thank you for stopping by. You have chosen to ignore my statements simply because they do not line up with your belief systems. You do not know any of us personally or what our background is. On the other hand, I am VERY well aware of what the Roman Catholic system of heresy teaches. I would agree that many Catholics are not truly aware of what the church believes, but it does not make any less heresy. This is not a blog where we are going to listen or question somebody else on the false teaching of Roman Catholicism. This will not be a springboard for open debate on the good points of RC. We have allowed you to come here and post your comments, but when you come with a preconceived idea about who we are, what we believe, and what we know, you are stepping over a line which will not be permitted.
If you have not seen “ONE SINGLE accurate representation of Catholic doctrine on this website” it is simply because you have no desire at this point to know the truth of God’s Word.
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HI Mark,
You say you are very well aware of the what Rome teaches, but you asserted we leave out the 2nd commandment in our churches
The second commandment being
4 “You shall not make for yourself [c]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
I have been catholic my whole life, I have always been taught this commandment, our catechism references all 10 of them, not 9. So when you say you are well versed in Catholic theology, maybe it is just the way you are communicating what you know. All of us Catholics join with you in agreement that the Worship of Mary is Idolatry. To argue contrary to that is to create a strawman argument which is a time waster.
The way you word your accusations make me wonder about how much you know and what your motives are. I am willing to listen and understand more, but as David mentioned it is hard to hear you when you are not talking to me or to us as Catholics. It would be great for you to reflect a proper understanding of what we believe and in what I have read here I am confused by you.
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B Allen, from the Vatican itself, I put in this link The
TenNine Commandments Interesting that the Vatican catechism does NOT list Commandment 2 but manages to skip completely over it because it would bring condemnation to its own hierarchy.I have no doubt that many Catholics mean well and what they think they believe is NOT actually what the church teaches. The Church does teach the worship of Mary and also teaches and fully believes that Mary has equal part in the redemption of the souls of man. The Catholic Church holds her as Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix of salvation.
My motives are that those who are trapped in the lies and heresy of the Catholic system will be brought to salvation, in Christ alone, by grace through faith alone. This is considered anathema teaching by the Vatican. However, the Vatican is in contradiction to the Word of God because it holds the “church”, tradition, and Catholic dogma of higher order than the Scriptures alone.
Before you or anyone assumes that the Roman Catholic system of religion believes these things, it would be wise to visit the Vatican website and see for yourself what they hold forth as doctrine.
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Hi mark,
I saw your link, I see ex 20 referenced fully by the church including all of the second commandment just like i was taught from my youth, all commandments are listed so I am a bit confused here. We Catholics agree that the worship of Mary is idolatry.
Where does the catechism teach that Mary is a coredemptrix? Using that exact word?
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Look under the new post “Instructions for the ignorant” and you will find the link I just posted
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And JUST in case, anyone doubts where the Vatican stands on the heresy of Mary as the “mother of God”, I point you to their own words – The Heresy of the worship of Mary
Wholly united with her Son . . .
964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
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Further, from the mouth of the beast comes this webpage of blatant heresy Heresy of Maryology
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Mark,
I admire your passion for Christ, However, The link you shared from Catholicplanet, is hardly catholic. I know it is hard for some people to sift through what is true and what is nonsense when there are so many so called “catholic” voices out there and many of them you should rightly reject (we feel the same way sometimes talking to so many protestant denominational viewpoints).
It is interesting to me as a Catholic because Here again, I stand in firm agreement with you that much of what this guy is about is rather nutty and stands outside of the Church of Rome, and my day to to day experiences as a Catholic.
Check out this link to help balance out some of that
http://www.catholicplanetfalsehoods.com/
My fear is that people read stuff that sounds ridiculous from people claiming to be catholic and then rightly protest that stuff, and wrongly protest the Church. You are showing here in some of your posts exactly what David stated in regars to not properly understand church teaching. When you share this link as if it is catholic gospel it tells us catholics that you do not truly know or believe what we know and believe, at least not in the same way.
That is why we enjoy dialoguing with you. While you think us Heretics, we consider you separated brothers. You may want to shout doctrine at us and then brush aside claiming “we have heard the truth and will be judged by it”, but we stand confused by the way you express love. Yes yes, I understand reading here that most of you can share nothing in spirit with us Idolators, but in our hearts, we worship only Christ, like you. We do not worship Mary. I personally, (and I believe David, and even kfilla and others who posted here,) want to understand you better, but also want you all to know us catholics better, so that we can better move our hearts mutually toward Christ. Personally I don’t think you can win someones heart by shouting at them that they are heretics. Take a moment to reflect on just this one example of our trouble being able to take your assaults at our faith seriously
I asked you where the church teaches that Mary is coredemptrix. The best place to look would be the catechism, not some fringe site. and you won’t find that term in our catechism as it is really rather divisive and controversial and often misunderstood. We just don’t teach it. Theologians may speculate and that is permissable, but that doesn’t mean it is doctrine.
My point being is that if you new the Catholic heart and Mind, and the Catholic doctrine as you say you did, you would not post falsehoods about what we teach and then try to tear them down. Coredemtrix is an easy target for you since it is word that is so untenable to the protestant mind. What I tried to do here is show you that you have no basis for claiming to be an expert on our doctrines when you misrepresent them.
The term coredemtrix falls into the category of theological speculation, not doctrine or Dogma. The church hasn’t condemn this as heresy so we are free to speculate, but that doesn’t mean it is part of our Dogmatic teachings.
Do you know the levels of Dogma?
1) Deposit of Faith: Holy Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, recognized and deliniated by the Magesterium. INFALLIBLE. Cannot be added to or subtracted from.
2) Dogma: INFALLIBLE teaching of Faith or Morals, derived from the Deposit of Faith. Propagated by ex cathedra pronouncment of reigning Pontiff or by a ecumenical council of the Church’s bishops in turn ratified by reigning Pontiff. Cannot contradict Deposit of Faith or prior Dogma.
3) Doctrine: NOT infallible teaching of the Church of Faith and Morals. Binding on all Catholics while propagated. Can be altered, modified, abandoned, even condemned. Doctrine RARELY becomes Dogma.
4) Discipline: NOT infallible rules of behavior, binding on all Catholics while propagated, designed with the intent to keep believers “on the straight and narrow”. Includes Lenten rules of fasting & priestly celibacy. Can be relaxed, altered, or abolished.
5) Devotions: Private practice of prayers, meditions, and disciplines, in accordance to Church approval. Includes 99% of Marian devotions, belief in approved apparitions or visions (Private Revelation), First Saturdays, Stations of the Cross, etc…
Or in a more concise order,
1) Dogma
2) Canon Law (or disciplines), and …
3) Theolegoumena (or theological opinions).
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B Allen, I posted that as an additional link which is from a Catholic scholar. However, you cannot argue against the proof as found on the website of the Vatican. In fact, I would challenge any Roman Catholic to ask their priest for the truth of what the Church ACTUALLY holds as doctrine or dogma – you will be shocked and surprised how far it does NOT line up with Scripture.
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“The term coredemtrix falls into the category of theological speculation, not doctrine or Dogma. The church hasn’t condemn this as heresy so we are free to speculate, but that doesn’t mean it is part of our Dogmatic teachings.”
That the RCC doesn’t condemn it as heresy is damning.
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Thank you for this publish. I once played one of Crowder’s song before I sleep and I had a spiritual warfare while asleep and I asked where the attack was finding a way from and the Lord told me it ‘s the artist but I couldnt believe myself and everytime I tried to do anything with his songs I sensed an attack until I started to search for articles about him and I found this articles. YES NEED TO BE CAREFUL AND VIGILANT NOT ALL THAT PROFESS CHRISTIANITY ARE GOD’S INSTRUMENTS. thanks.p
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I think many are missing the point, the clear biblical violation is not the music, but the message and spirit of the music. The idolatry of the musicians, the use of familiar spirits and non christ centered spirituality, the reference to pagan false religion (RCC) and that most christians don’t even recognize this is a pagan false religion with the pope being an anti-christ role, shows the sad state of the church.
The problem is when you make this about the music, you are stripping the strength from the argument, and the truth of the heresy. Opening yourself through meditation and loss of control of yourself, is opening yourself to familiar spirits and worship of false gods a clear abomination to the Lord.
Also there is a distinction between music which we enjoy on a personal level, so long as it does not push heresy or false heretical values, and music designed for a corporate worship setting.
Focus on the true heresy being pushed, and keep everything Christ centered, the Son of God should be the center of all of our life.
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All the more reason to return to the hymn book of the bible. Psalms, hymn & Spiritual songs. Now we all know that hymns and Psalms are one and the same. The Lord sang from the Halal psalms 113-118 and the in many places calls the psalms Spiritual songs.
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Michael, there is nothing wrong with singing from the Psalms, but this excludes so many Biblical and theologically sound hymns. In fact, the belief of singing only from the Psalms is erroneous for it excludes any songs of worship about the Lord Jesus Christ that would even be found in the New Testament such as what is found in the book of Revelation.
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If one’s relationship with Christ is at the correct level and the person actually listens to the songs David has written, over his many years in Christian music, it’s easy for anyone to see where David’s heart is with his music. Casting a fellow believer down who actually works in the field, spreading the message of Christ and what he did for us to people all over the world, is in my humble opinion worse than openly stating that his faith has been influenced by, according to the quote posted, a Catholic person. And how that he tries to carry on the practice of being content with what God has given us, and not needing worldly things.
We talk of “not being conformed to the image of this world,” and we sit in our pews pointing fingers, condemning people willing to step out of the proverbial “boat” of being a Christian and chance the waves? All I’m saying is has anyone thought about actually asking him about that, why he answered what he did, what led him to feel that way? Is his statement truly worthy of all the grief being displayed on this webpage? Or is so much smaller than that. Perhaps a case of just being a bit misguided? Or perhaps it is within ourselves that we find the true source of error.
Our savior declared, “How can you pick the spot out of your brother’s eye while a beam is within your own?”
Despite his original lingo JoeMawa really struck a chord withi his post on how the Lord was known to gather amongst and travel with sinners and in turn was cast down because of it by the religious minds of His day. How are we any better? Because Jesus died for you, you have the right to judge others? Good heavens people, Jesus died because we are -all- sinners. “We all like sheep have gone astray.” “There is none good no, not one.” “There are none that seek after God.” That means we all at some point realized that the only way we were going to spend eternity in heaven was by the shedding of Jesus’ blood upon the cross at calvary, where he paid the cost for your sin and mine.
I’m not trying to defend what David said but I am defending a brother in Christ from having a stumbling block thrown against him for speaking on something so trivial as that. I’ve listened to his music for quite a while and I’ve never once heard anything that would considered “Catholic” that being the worship of Mary as being divine or otherwise. That doesn’t mean that I am 100% correct however.
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So because he said he’s been influenced by catholic saints and has found some really good stuff in catholic teachings, you decide to crucify him? Look people, David Crowder has been and continues to be a real influence in the lives of those who have and have not found Jesus. Personally, growing up, I was shaped tremendously into a fully devoted follower of Christ because of Jesus’ presence in my life, the works of His hands, and those around me who pointed me in Hs direction. David Crowder and his band were some of those people.
In your website’s tagline, you say that you want to carry the Gospel into a world covered in darkness (paraphrased), yet when it comes to catholics, you write them off as if they’re inhuman and beyond saving. Why don’t you care for your fellow brothers and sisters as much as you care about everyone else? You don’t have to agree on everything, but we ALL agree on ONE thing: the Gospel of Jesus. He came, lived, died, and rose so we might be reconnected with God. That must unify us. Jesus said a house divided cannot stand, yet you work so hard on this site to divide our house. (Yes, catholics are a part of our house). Crowder does good stuff and through his music, has brought so many people to Christ. Can’t you celebrate that?
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Seriously?? Crowder is a great Christian leader who had produced much fruit for Christ’s kingdom. I have met him on many occasions and I can tell you that he is a down to earth, compassionate Christian. I actually believe his answer was brilliant in the above article, it shows that he has a desire to pursue Christ the passion many did in the past. The catholic church was once a strong Christian church, now it is weaker and riddled with works based doctrine but that doesn’t mean everything they teach is wrong. Get off your fundamentalist pharasitical high horse. And hang with sinners like Christ did!
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Joe, here is the problem. If I had a barrel of apples and put one drop of poison in one apple, then mixed it in with the other apples, which one would you be willing to pick up and bite into? The answer is simple – not one single bite would pass your lips.
The Roman Catholic church has been apostate since its inception by the mixing of pagan rituals with some of Christianity by the heretic emperor Constantine. The RCC is full of poison and for us to stand back and just let people come on the scene telling us that there are many roads to heaven via works, praying to Mary, or whatever, is heresy.
Yes, we do hang with sinners – every day, but we also warn them to flee from the wrath to come. We do not leave them standing beside the barrel of apples trying to decide which is the best apple.
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Most excellent word picture, Mark!
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holy joe said: “The catholic church was once a strong Christian church”
You are incorrect, yet inadvertently correct Joe. She is a strong harlot impostor church, accursed by God, led by an antichrist devil since it’s inception. Even apart from her doctrines of works, it is filled with idolatry, murder, pedophilia, priest-craft, nicolatian conquering, and every abominable practice of the earlier mystery religions of rome. She is the great whore and the mother of many little harlots.
holy joe said: “Get off your fundamentalist pharasitical high horse”
Get off your juvenile name calling high horse and dig deep into the word of God friend. If a man is proud in declaring truth that needs to be repented of for sure. However if a man is proud in declaring error, as you have been here, he is in need of a much deeper work of God in his life.
-Jim
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Elijahsch,
Thank you for stopping by. I want to post your comment now, but clarify a few points you made. In regards to Catholics, we do not, in any way, “write them off as if they’re inhuman and beyond saving.”
The gospel message is simple and clear. The Bible states that whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life freely. The problem that arises is when any system of religion, be it Catholic, Mormon, or even Protestant, attempt to add to the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. ANY and ALL attempts at adding or subtracting from that work is anathema, and all who seek to do so stand condemned before God.
Contrary to your statement that “we ALL agree on ONE thing: the Gospel of Jesus”, the reality is that we do NOT agree for you have sought to add to what Christ alone could do. Only those who place their faith in Christ alone by grace alone are counted among the redeemed. The reason we do not stand with Catholicism is because they do not believe my previous statement.
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What if all Christian religions were melted together to become one Christian Spirituality baptized in the Holy Spirit promised and given to us by Jesus the Christ when He went to prepare us a place in His Fathers House… And men created all the religions but God gifted us all the same Holy Spirit… For His Glory unite in One True Spirit… Jesus Church lives in the streets; lives within the joyful, broken, sad, thankful hearts of each man, woman and child on His Earth…. Live Jesus Church
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Growing up Catholic, walking away from it all, living within Protestanism but realizing its first me to Him in a prayerful relationship seems I found that His Spirit didn’t come from the outside in but by surrendering more and more of myself to what He’d already given to me; what I’d kept hidden away from me…. Nurture His Spirit and His Spirit will set you free because it is Freedom.. 2Cor.3:17 Jesus Church is free; No walls, out on the street
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Here’s the thing that bugs me.
There was nothing concrete on this post. No interviews with Crowder, just speculation. Read his stuff, listen to his music. He respects the scripture, he understands that he is a sinner, and that he is saved by grace. Why are we condemning him? He sings truth. If you can provide physical evidence from his mouth, then be my guest. But everything that I’ve seen is on par.And I’m not trying to debate on the Catholic issue. Having an interview with someone is not a damning mistake.
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The thing that amazes me about all of these post is that everyone if fighting and arguing over the word of God. Everyone is making fun of each other and ganging up on a few guys that have different opinions. We are to represent Christ in all we do.
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose
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Eric, we appreciate you stopping by and commenting. However, there is something to consider. The New Testament writings make it very clear that doctrine is of the utmost importance. There can be no unity in thought and purpose when there is no doctrinal basis. Doctrine will divide and this is the message we find particularly in Paul’s letters to the various churches. True believers are commanded not to unite with those who do not hold to the doctrines that are proclaimed in the Scriptures.
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wOW! Does David Crowder know he started this debate? Thank you David Casper , Tori, Bill G and others for defending the Faith. Eddie said it best on 8-2-13, when he said, ”
God have mercy on us al!” This site is a testament to how when there is not Authority handed down through the Church, the person themselves become the Authority. There are so many different interpretations of the Bible on this site. Why would God give us His Word and not a church to interpret it for us? Almost 500 years later, we are still Protesting. I was very saddened when JCVindica talked about Chuck Swindoll preaching on Communion. The materials don’t matter? How can they not matter?. Texas toast, pepsi, and potato chips used by Chuck Swindoll. Very troubling. They do indeed matter. John Chapter 6 states over and over, This is my Body, This is my Blood. The clincher is when the verse talks about Jesus’ followers saying this teaching was too hard! They walked away from Jesus. If it is just a symbol why was it too hard too believe. Jesus let them walk away. People are still walking away 2000 year later.
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I see no grace in these comments. I see no love in these comments. What I see is condemnation. Let’s all be cautious that we are not becoming Pharisee like. The Pharisees sat from a far and criticized people. They used the law for their own gain. Make sure your HEART is in the right place. Jesus loves each of us. He died for each of us. Let’s not forget it. Let’s do our best to tell people about Jesus and show others that Christ can redeem them just as he has redeemed us.
“This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”—and I am the worst of them all. But God had mercy on me so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of his great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others will realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.”
~ 1 Timothy 1:15-16
“So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.”
~ John 13:34-35
God bless y’all!
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Catholics do not worship Mary. If your brother was very sick, you would ask your friends to pray for him, right?
Similarly, Catholics ask Mary and the saints to pray TO JESUS for us. We know that Jesus is the one Mediator between us and the Father, but Mary and the saints are co-mediators who pray to Jesus for us. Mary is not divine.
A ministry being “dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary” does not take away from that ministry’s dedication to Christ. Mary was and is only dedicated to Christ. Elizabeth praised her: “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb”–and what did Mary do? She directed that praise TO GOD: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord.” She acknowledges that she is only His humble handmaid.
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Emily, you speak from a position that is completely foreign to the Roman Catholic Church. Catholics are taught to venerate Mary and to pray to her as well as to the saints. The Bible makes it clear that we are not to pray to the dead. Further, the RCC teaches that Mary is now considered to be Co-Redemptrix with Christ and equally part of the process of salvation as Jesus Christ by His death on the cross.
Mary and the saints are NOT co-mediators and they do NOT pray to Jesus on our behalf. Only those who have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit are able to have their prayers heard as the Holy Spirit alone makes intercession for all living believers. Thus the teaching of your church is wrong once again and goes contrary to the teaching of God’s Word. A true believer needs NOBODY to pray to Jesus on their behalf. This is called the priesthood of all true believers.
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I appreciate your concern for guarding against false teachings. That being said, I think your portrayal of David Crowder is unfair. Just because he gives an interview to a group that has some false or misguided beliefs doesn’t mean he supports all their views. Jesus took the questions of the pharisees and answered most of them, does that mean he supported their hypocrisy and teaching of salvation by works? Of course not. But through engaging with them the truth was proclaimed.
Why are you so scared of spiritual formation? I’m aware that there are some writers and leaders out there that might get a bit off course or downright heretical, but my experience with spiritual formation teachings has been that in general it emphasizes fasting, silence and solitude, meditation on the scriptures, different forms of prayer, etc. Building those disciplines into our lives are in line with scripture, what’s the problem? Ever think that the reason there are so many lukewarm Christians in evangelicalism is because we overemphasize a sinners prayer (that doesn’t exist in the bible) and fight too many battles over who has their theology perfect (head knowledge only) and don’t spend enough time helping people develop character and a life that is surrendered to God… mind, heart and body? (which I would suggest comes from these spiritual disciplines).
Given your disgust for all things Catholic, I am assuming you are coming from a reformed view and probably have Martin Luther as one of your heroes (forgive me if I’m wrong). Something that people don’t like to bring up is that he was a huge anti-semite and also used very foul language. So although he got it right with salvation by faith and reliance on authority of scripture, not the pope, he got it wrong with his crude language and his teachings about of Jewish people and what to do with them (can you imagine the Apostle Paul’s response to Martin Luther’s teaching to burn their homes and synagogues?). What’s my point? You have to take the good with the bad and be discerning. It would be a mistake to throw out some of the important reforms Luther inspired in response to what he did wrong. It’s a mistake to throw out some of the wonderful music, teachings and movements David Crowder has been a part of just because he did an interview with a Roman Catholic group, or was inspired by St. Francis (are you really going to criticize him for being inspired to be content and less materialistic?). I’ll even go so far to say that you shouldn’t discredit all Roman Catholic monks, nuns, priests, etc. even if they’ve got some bad theology. It doesn’t mean you can’t learn anything from them. I’d focus more on praying for them to be set free from the false teachings and practices.
Just to clarify I am not Roman Catholic (though i believe there are some true followers of Jesus in that group), I don’t worship or pray to Mary, and I do care about being discerning and not just accepting things just because they are labeled Christian. My hope is not to start a fight here, but just maybe your heart can be softened a little bit and also maybe you’ll be a little more careful how you portray or pretend to know the heart and mind of someone that from all I can see is genuinely trying to spread the true gospel through his musical gifts. Thanks.
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