DefCon is pleased to introduce its first ever Cultoon. If the dialogue in this Cultoon sounds familiar, it was loosely derived from an actual debate featured on this previous post. Enjoy.
Christ Alone Wyoming
Proclaiming the Truth of Christ-Centered Theology
Christ Alone Wyoming 
Talk about sobering…
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That was wonderful and terrifying and I am sending it to my pastor.
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Bravo! As the following explanation by the freakishly tall Mr. Friel reviews the doctrines of the Mormon church of Satan, explaining why a Mormon has no good news for a dieing man.
http://5ptsalt.com/2010/08/03/glenn-beck-the-mormon-view-of-atonement/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+5PtSalt+%285+pt.+Salt%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher
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Let me get this straight. A dying, sinful man has 5 minutes to live, and his eternal destiny is determined by what I can say to him in those 5 minutes? I do not believe in a god that would be so unjust. I would tell this man that Jesus Christ is his Savior and that he should put his trust completely in Him. That God will be just, yet full of grace in his judgement of him. That he should find comfort in soon putting the cares and woes of this world behind him and that he can fully expect to be in Heaven. These are the beliefs based on the doctrines of my church and my understanding of the Bible. And I’m a Mormon.
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Chris,
And would your ‘jesus’ by any chance be a brother of the devil?
Therein lies the problem…
You have the wrong Jesus, therefore you don’t have the Father either.
While your doctrine tries to come off SOUNDING Christian, it condemns men to Hell because you have re-defined God and His Word.
Your god can’t send anyone to Hell… you’re right… your god doesn’t exist.
Remember also that it’s YOUR definition of ‘un-just.’
Actually, God is PERFECTLY just in sending us ALL to Hell! We deserve it for our lawlessness. But, God is rich in mercy and in grace, and grants to us the gift of eternal life.
…a message the mormon church cannot convey.
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Jeff H.,
I’m glad to answer your question and respond to your comments. I appreciate any opportunity to clear up the misconceptions out there about my faith.
Your comment about Jesus and the Devil being brothers is a silly use of hyperbole and rhetoric used by those don’t like us. As you know, St. Paul said that God is the Father of all. All beings were created by Him are His spirit children. (That is why we call Him our Heavenly Father.) Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel (see Isaiah 14:12.) So, in a sense, we are all brothers and sisters as children of God. But we don’t think of Jesus and Satan as brothers. It’s kind of an abstract concept for us and the only time we hear about it is from detractors who extrapolate it for shock value.
You say we “have the wrong Jesus.” The Jesus we worship is the one found in the New Testament. I believe you also worship the same Jesus. We may disagree on some theological differences, but we most certainly both worship the Jesus of the Bible as best as we each understand Him.
You say our doctrine “condemns men to Hell.” Actually, we have a very optimistic view of Heaven. By our beliefs, all who are Christian will be in Heaven. That includes you, me, and anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior. We have not redefined God and His Word. Our beliefs in God and Jesus are perfectly Biblical.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by my definition of “un-just.” I should probably clarify my comment in my earlier post. The scenario of this “cultoon” is that the dying man will either go to Heaven or Hell based on what you or I tell him during the last 5 minutes of his life. God does not judge someone based on what another would say to him. THAT is unjust.
You said,“Actually, God is PERFECTLY just in sending us ALL to Hell! We deserve it for our lawlessness. But, God is rich in mercy and in grace, and grants to us the gift of eternal life.” I agree with you 100% on this one!
You also said, “…a message the mormon church cannot convey.” Actually, not only can we convey it, we DO convey it, along with all other Christians!
Jeff, I do feel bad that you don’t think I’m a Christian. Fortunately, your opinion on that doesn’t matter because I know I’m a Christian and Jesus Christ knows I’m a Christian. He knows that I love Him with all my heart. I thank God everyday for His atoning sacrifice that enables me to return to Him. He has touched my spirit in a very real and personal way. I can never repay Him, but I devote all that I am to Him, anyway. I am a Christian. And I’m a Mormon.
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Hi Chris,
Thank you for responding to my comments.
It is not I who labels you a “non-Christian,” it is your church!
http://defendingcontending.com/2007/10/31/what-do-mormons-really-believe-about-christians-2/
The Bible says:
“And he said to them, ‘Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.'” (Mark 16:15)
“For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'” (Romans 10:13-15)
So, you’ve just called God un-just.
Nope, your church says:
“The Christian God is the Mormon’s Devil.” …Brigham Young (Second false prophet of the Mormon organization), Journal of Discourses, Volume 5 Page 331
Not even close!
Here is your ‘jesus’:
http://defendingcontending.com/2009/08/22/comparing-the-two-witnesses-of-jesus-christ/
Listen: either Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God the Father (fully God and fully Man, one-third of the Godhead) and not a created being (as the Bible states CLEARLY — read the Gospel of John), or the Mormons are correct and Jesus and the Devil are both created beings.
FACTS: Jesus is not like the Devil nor like us! We can NEVER be God(s)… There is only ONE God.
Mormons have the wrong ‘jesus’ and the wrong ‘father’, and therefore no hope of Eternal Life… unless they repent and put their trust in the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)
Also, salvation is a free gift from God, by grace through faith.
Since the word grace means a free gift that can’t be earned, why does the Book of Mormon state “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (2_Ne. 25:23)
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Hello Jeff,
I’m happy to respond and clear up misconceptions about us.
I really don’t understand your statement that I’ve “just called God unjust.” I did no such thing. God is just. Period. I agree 100% with the scripture verses you provided (Mark 16:15 and Romans 10:13-15). I have called on the name of the Lord, yet you apparently don’t believe I will be saved. Perhaps it is you that questions the truth in those verses?
To say that it is our church that labels ourselves as non-Christian is silly, Jeff. We do quite the opposite. Your “proof” of that point is deceitful. You quote Brigham Young as saying, “The Christian God is the Mormon’s Devil.” If you look at the original “quote” you will see that Brigham Young was quoting SOMEONE ELSE’s erroneous statement! It sounds like you got this info from a site that is dishonest. Might I suggest [link removed for violation of Rules of Engagement #9] if you want to learn what we TRULY believe.
Incidentally, that out-of-context quote was from the Journal of Discourses. Most Mormons do not own copies of JoD, have never read it, and don’t put much stock into it. Our view of JoD is that it has some historical value but it has NEVER been held in much regard doctrinally. There is far too much in there that is second/third hand information, has questionable accuracy, or is otherwise incorrect, which is precisely why it is not part of our canon. To judge our doctrines based on stuff that we don’t even view as doctrinal is truly foolish.
“Jesus is not like the Devil nor like us!” — I agree 100%
“We can NEVER be God(s).” — perhaps not, but we CAN become LIKE God. Our Church’s statement on this: “We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes.” This is a perfectly biblical view of man’s potential. Any extrapolation our critics like to attribute to us about deification for the shock value is dishonest since our doctrine on the subject is simple, biblical, and indeterminate.
You said, “Mormons have the wrong ‘jesus’ and the wrong ‘father’, and therefore no hope of Eternal Life… unless they repent and put their trust in the Jesus Christ of the Bible.” — We put our trust in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. I’ve told you that before. I’m sorry you don’t believe me.
You wrote, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12) — I agree 100%
You wrote, “Also, salvation is a free gift from God, by grace through faith.” I agree 100%
You quoted from 2 Nephi Ch. 25 in the Book of Mormon. Here is the full quote:
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
If you read it in context, you can see that “after all” can easily be interpreted as “in spite of.”
Another way to look at it: In the Book of Mormon, Alma 24:11 it says: “And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do, (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain.”
From this verse we learn that “all we can do” is REPENT! In your post you said that to be saved we must “repent and put [our] trust in the Jesus Christ of the Bible.” It appears, Jeff, that you and I are in agreement on this one. All we can really do is repent and come unto Jesus.
Regardless of how it is interpreted, I have NEVER in 40 years of being a Mormon, met another Mormon who believes we can “earn” our way into Heaven. For you and others to continue to portray us in that light is dishonest. Dishonesty is NOT a Christian attribute.
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Are you deliberately refusing to follow a chain of thought?
You said:
“God does not judge someone based on what another would say to him. THAT is unjust.”
I responded that that is exactly what the Bible tells us concerning evangelism… and then pointed out that that makes your statement slanderous of God’s Character by calling Him unjust FOR THE REASON YOU COMPLAINED ABOUT.
I mean, if you don’t want to have a serious conversation, and want to play coy in answering me then don’t bother. I was quite clear in quoting you, and then answering your point. You on the other hand, attempt to mix up questions and responses to give non-answers.
Uh, no.
Nice try. Your organization was founded on the principle that the Christian Church had fallen into apostasy, and that Smith (as a ‘prophet’) was given a latter revelation to restore the ‘true’ church. Please don’t insult my intelligence by claiming otherwise or feigning ignorance of this well publicized fact. If you claim your church is just another Christian denomination, then there’s no need for me to respond to that point any further. Your own organization (cult)’s publications and and prophets’ pronouncements say otherwise.
Also, you have completely ignored the quotes in the link I posted for you, and have not responded to their damaging testimony about mormon doctrine. I can understand why.
Of course! The old standby of the mormon apologist. When confronted with overwhelming damning evidence, just claim that the cited prophet, publication… fill in the blank… is not currently taught, was not quoted when the prophet was speaking officially, is from an obsolete publication, fill in the blank.
sigh.
I was hoping for more this time.
Is this a current strategy of the mormons, or have you all actually repeated this mantra so often that you have begun to believe it?
If you search the posts here left by mormons, you will see the same pattern repeated.
1. Ignore the points (cited quotes from official mormon sources).
2. Feign confusion such that any points made in #1 get twisted and/or ignored.
3. When cornered and all else fails, disavow the validity of #1, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
4. As a last resort, sling mud and leave.
As evidence of #4, we have from you:
I’m not surprised.
Was God the Father (Elohim) a created being? Was Jesus a created being? Are there many ‘Gods’?
If you answer ‘yes’ to any of these, then you and I have different Gods. More than just a small doctrinal difference, your ‘god’ is not the God of the Bible. You can continue to deny that, but you can’t change the pronouncements (even the foundation!) of your church.
So don’t bother trying to beat that dead horse any more, please.
Again, is Jesus the Eternal One, Who has always existed, not created? Is He One of many ‘Gods?’
Will you become a ‘God’ one day? If you say something like, “Go read Jeff Lindsay’s response to ‘God Makers'”… then I will point you back to “Common Mormon Tactics” I listed above.
Mr. Lindsay uses all four!
Oh no you don’t!
Your ‘jesus’ cannot be found in Scripture. I’ve already given you the link, but I’ll do it again. Please READ IT THIS TIME!
http://defendingcontending.com/2009/08/22/comparing-the-two-witnesses-of-jesus-christ/
… especially…
How’s that working for you? Do you keep the commandments? Always?
Me either.
So what happened to your grace?
Anytime one adds Christ PLUS something, he has gone too far.
I don’t.
Well, what just happened to keeping the commandments? I mean, is it Jesus ALONE, Jesus plus commandments?
See #4 above, Mr. Mudslinger.
BTW, do you consider yourself a good person?
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sigh.
I was hoping for more this time.
Is this a current strategy of the anti-mormons, or have you all actually repeated this mantra so often that you have begun to believe it?
If you search the posts here left by anti-mormons, you will see the same pattern repeated.
Mormon: I believe (Issue X)
Anti-Mormon: No you don’t
Mormon: Yes, I do.
Anti-Mormon: NO, you don’t! You believe (Issue Y)
Mormon: No I don’t. I’ve never believed that.
Anti-Mormon: Stop pretending to believe something that you don’t really believe.
Mormon: I’m not pretending. I’m telling you what I really believe
Anti-Mormon: You’re lying. I know what you believe better than you!
Seriously, Jeff? Is this your idea of a “serious conversation” as you claim to hope for? I have been completely honest in my beliefs yet you want to control the beliefs on BOTH sides of the conversation.
Next time you have an opportunity to have an online discussion with a Mormon, rather than saying, “Oh no you don’t believe that!”, try saying something like, “but if Brigham Young said such-and-such, how do you reconcile your beliefs with his statement?” If you try that, you might actually get to have that “serious conversation” that you say you want. After you last post, however, I’m not convinced that’s what you really want. In fact, I suspect your strategy is to bully Mormons off the posts in order to minimize exposing the general public to what we really believe.
Even if so, you win. I choose not to be bullied. This will be my last post here. You can have the last word. Feel free to claim victory as I run and hide with my tail between my legs because I could not defend the beliefs you insist on cramming down my throat.
Suffice it to say that I am a Christian. None of my beliefs conflict with the Bible, despite that fact that I believe that there are truths to be found outside of the Bible. You can twist my beliefs to fit your agenda all you want, but in the end the only thing that matters is that God knows me and knows that I put my trust in Christ. If anyone reading this post has questions about some of the half-truths and lies and distortions that Jeff regurgitates, I’ll refer you to [link removed for violation of Rules of Engagement #9] which will answer these accusations better than I can. You will see that our beliefs are perfectly Biblical.
Good luck Jeff. No matter how you respond to this post, I’ll not be replying. Have at it!
Chris
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Uh no.
What I have posted are quotes from YOUR mormon ‘prophets,’ and you have tenaciously avoided responding to these on-record quotes.
I did. (a long list of quotes by your false prophets)
You ignored it.
You cried ‘victim.’ (another mormon blogging strategy, btw)
Then you flung more mud, and left.
See #4 above.
Just as I predicted.
Read the Bible, chuck the cult literature.
In Christ,
– Jeff
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Dear Chris,
There was so much in your comments that I’d like to respond to, however, I don’t have the time to address everything, so I’ll cover a few highlights.
You said:
Actually, Chiris, and with all due respect, you’re the one being deceptive here. Brigham Young was not merely quoting someone else’s erroneous statement, he was quoting a fellow Mormon. And he never said or alluded that the quote was erroneous. You’re adding that.
Here’s the quote from Journal of Discourses Volume 5 Page 331:
I suggest you (and the readers of this blog) read the entire source of that quote before you twist it while alleging that we’re twisting it. Was Brigham Young quoting Brother Joseph B. Noble in disagreement? Hardly. Here is Brigham Young quoting Brother Taylior:
And here are some of Brigham’s own proclamations:
It is apparent what Brigham believes about Christians. Trying to spin it as he was just quoting someone else is disingenuous at best, wantonly dishonest at worst.
You also said:
Are you purposely trying to rewrite Mormon history? Your thin attempts to defend your organization’s history may work on those just passing through here, but those of us who know Mormonism know that it is neither hyperbole nor rhetoric; it is Mormon doctrine. And secondly, we don’t “dislike” you. It’s LDS doctrine that we dislike.
You also said:
Nice try. Quoting the JoD is all good when it is favorable, but as soon as someone quotes anything from the JoD that reveals the real Mormonism, then all of a sudden it’s an unreliable source that can’t be trusted. Very convenient.
Also, we don’t “judge LDS doctrines” simply on such things as JoD, we “judge LDS doctrine” on a totality of all your prophets’ teachings whether they be found in the BoM, PoGP, D&C, JoD, general conferences or any other publication produced and endorsed by the LDS organization.
You also said:
Wow. You either must have been in a cave for the past 40 years, are woefully ignorant of Mormon doctrine, or are intentionally lying. For a little help, here’s a list of Mormon requirements for salvation. And may I remind you, Chris, that preaching “another gospel” (Gal. 1:6-9) is NOT a Christian attribute.”
And finally, Chris, you said:
I am disappointed (but not surprised) at your playing the victim while attempting to mislead the dear readers of this blog with your deceptive comments. Most of what Mormonism teaches (that you claim to not believe) is in conflict with the Bible. You can deny what Mormonism teaches all day long, but I will stick to the actual teachings of your prophets throughout LDS history to know what LDS is all about. And your attempt to lead people astray by directing them to apostate Mormon websites is a violation of DefCon’s Rules of Engagement #9 and has been corrected.
I am all for honest discussion, but if your goal is to obfuscate, spin, twist, and alter the “truths” of Mormonism (while simultaneously accusing us of doing that), then you truly are wasting your time here.
Respectfully,
– Pilgrim
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Chris is quintessential. He was probably born into the cult and indoctrinated accordingly. Everyone should see the Youtube “Lying for the Lord” where Robert Millet, a noted BYU professor, reveals his tactics for dodging the issues. Also, Chris is using a lot of “milk” in his tactic of “milk before meat”, a very common Mormon deception tactic. Sadly, most Mormons, especially cradle-Mormons, don’t even realize they are being deceptive: they truly believe it to be true – they’ve had that “burning in the bosom”.
The bottom line is, if your god is made of flesh and bone, lives on or near a star or planet called Kolob…if your Jesus is Satan’s brother, if you’ve been through a Mormon endowment ceremony where Satan identifies his apron as a symbol of his power and priesthoods (and, then you put your own apron on), if you believe Joseph Smith was anything other than a con-artist, if you believe God literally “changed his mind” re: allowing blacks into the priesthood in in 1978 (etc etc) – if you believe even one of these bullet points, I do not worship your deity.
I do worship the great I AM found in the canon of scripture.
We should pray for the mormon people, for they’ve been falsely led for so long they believe it. Literally. Chris does. He’s probably a swell guy who thinks we’re crazy. And, that is sad. That makes the God who is not composed of flesh and bone, THE God, weep. And, what makes God weep should make us all weep.
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