June 6, 2011 by Pilgrim

Should a Christian vote for Mitt Romney?

I recently read a piece entitled A Vote For Romney is a Vote for the LDS Church written by Warren C. Smith (not to be confused with the Warren Smith who exposed Rick Warren’s New Age agenda and ties to Robert Schuller in his book Deceived on Purpose).

Here’s a quote from the thought-provoking article that–for the record–I completely agree with:

“To elect a Mormon President is to advance the cause of the Mormon Church. Non-Christians likely don’t care much about this point one way or the other. But for the Christian, this is a vital issue. . . . The validation of the false religion of Mormonism would almost certainly have the effect of leading many astray. Evangelical Christians should have no part of that effort. . . . A Romney presidency would have the effect of actively promoting a false religion in the world. If you have any regard for the Gospel of Christ, you should care. A false religion should not prosper with the support of Christians. The salvation of souls is at stake.”

113 thoughts on “Should a Christian vote for Mitt Romney?”

judy palloto | June 6, 2011 at 9:53 am

Very interesting and thank you for posting ~~ a new thought. I was actually pondering this morning, Sarah Palin’s association/involvement with the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). Would a vote for her be advancing the NAR agenda (not so different from Mormon’s theocratic view of government)? For whom is a Christian to vote? Do we not vote (essentially a no-vote) if there is not a tolerable candidate?

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shane | June 6, 2011 at 11:26 am

It may just be me but if a politician says they are a Christian I don’t believe them. I think they are just pandering for a vote. Especially here in the Bible belt.

I couldn’t vote for Palin on the fact that I don’t think she could do the job. She didn’t complete her term as governor.

There is a proponent of a false religion in the White House right now. It gets harder for me to vote in elections as time goes on. I have to base my decision on what they say about the issues at hand and not what religion they are. I may just get to the point where I don’t even vote if my conscience begins to weigh heavily on me.

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DavidW | June 6, 2011 at 12:56 pm

Judy, you raise a good point. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard Christians say “well, I’m not a fan of Mr. B, but I’m just voting for him so Mr. C doesn’t get in”. And it becomes a matter of voting for the lesser to two evils. But if that’s the case, the fact remains they have still voted in an evil man. And in doing so, must bear their share of responsibility for his actions. We hear a lot of patriotic duty preached from the pulpits today, as if it is the Christian’s duty to vote for one or the other. I have not yet heard a convincing argument from Scripture in support of such a theory. What we do have is a command to pray for those in authority (1 Tim. 2:1-3) and to honor the king (1 Pet.2:17).

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abidingthroughgrace | June 6, 2011 at 1:27 pm

Personally, I can’t see how a Mormon president would be worse the Catholics in the past, phoney bologna baptist presidents, a confused Muslim/christian no wait Muslim wait…who knows president. The founding fathers were deists and didn’t believe in Christ. I’d question if we have ever had a truly Christ believing President. If we are to vote on faith alone, we’ll never be able to vote…and maybe that is the answer. Do you vote for morals (absent of Christ)? Do you vote for the person most similar to your beliefs? Do you vote purely on political/economic issues? Do you vote based on social issues?

I would argue that having a Mormon president would be far better than a socialist/liberal who will act to increase abortions and legalize gay marriage. Which is more important for eternity?

Better yet, as believer’s in Christ, and the Holy Sovereign creator of the universe we have to rest comfortably in whatever President that we are given God chooses and uses every leader that ever was for his grand purposes…from Pharaoh to Nebuchadnezzar to Caesar to Henry the VIII to Washington to Churchill to Hitler to Mao to Reagan to Obama. The question that bounces around my mind is why vote at all since God is in control, but I have to remind myself that he uses us and we have responsibility in our lives to be ambassadors for him. So it makes a tough choice.

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Katy~TheCountryBlossom | June 6, 2011 at 4:54 pm

It is so difficult to know *who* to vote for…especially when you feel like you just can’t trust *any* of them. I am ready for a down-home country boy/business man with good morals, ethics, intelligence and a firm faith and walk with Christ to be in the running.

I must admit, I was one of those people who said “vote for the lesser of two evils”…but even that doesn’t work. 😦 Why aren’t any good, honest, Christian men standing up and taking to the lead in this?

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Manfred | June 6, 2011 at 6:37 pm

When Orrin Hatch was running for President, several years back, I read a report in which he whined that people were opposing him because he was Mormon. I wrote him and explained my opposition – based on his horrible record in the Senate, having voted for myriad unconstitutional social programs, etc. I further explained to him that, since he brought up his religion, I would be happy to talk with him about the gospel of the biblical Christ as I was concerned about his soul. He did not get back to me.

President is not a religious position. As with Reagan (who thought man is inherently good) and Wilson (whose post-mil views led him to embrace the League of Nations), the religious views of the man in that office will affect his service.

So let us embrace the tension – uphold our civic duty and vote as informed citizens yet put our hope and confidence in Christ alone.

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doreen | June 6, 2011 at 9:10 pm

Should Christians vote…?

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Manfred | June 7, 2011 at 5:49 am

doreen – I think that Christians ought to vote. It’s part of our submission to the government. This applies to the US of A – I do not pretend to know the circumstances of other countries.

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The Desert Pastor | June 7, 2011 at 6:48 am

Doreen & Manfred,

Being a dual citizen of the UK and the USA, I have voted in both locations and at times I have chosen to abstain from voting. While it is a privilege and a right to vote in both places, I am not sure that I agree that it is part of our submission to the government as it is not required in either location as it is in some countries. Your simple statement though, Manfred, has given me a few things to think about.

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abidingthroughgrace | June 7, 2011 at 7:32 am

Manfred, great words, I agree completely. We are to submit to our Government, out Government asks those 18 and older to vote for the president. Therefore, we should joyful do the work of the kingdom and vote for those who will have similar values or vote against those who are clearly going to do things against what we stand for. Not voting would then be disobedience to God’s command to submit to our government and leaders since He chose to put us in this country, in this time, and these circumstances.

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DavidW | June 7, 2011 at 8:30 am

The problem I see with negative voting (voting against the liberal, godless, pro-gay, pro-abortion candidate), is that by default one is voting for the alternate, regardless of his spiritual convictions. And that has been the pattern for evangelicals for decades. To put it more precisely, it has been traditional to vote Republican, no matter who he is, what he believes, what he stands for, or what his qualifications, because at least he’s not one of those “evil Democrats”. Following that course of action, if a Mormon were the traditional “lesser of two evils”, we would in keeping with our civic duty to vote, and as the alternate to that “evil Democrat” (no matter who he is), necessarily have to vote for him. To vote for a third candidate, if there is one, is essentially moot if our main objective is negative voting, since the third guy would not have sufficient number of votes either from the populace or the electoral college to obtain that objective. And remember, we’re not just voting for a single man, but for his whole administration. He appoints those he chooses to fill cabinet posts for a whole spectrum of positions of government.

IF there were a candidate who truly represented Christ, then by all means vote for him! If, however, the “lesser of two evils” does not represent Christ but rather another god, then if I vote for him I bear the responsibility for placing him in authority, I must share the responsibility for God’s judgment on this nation because of him (and his appointees), and essentially I have done my part to send many more into a Christless eternity because of my vote for a “lesser” evil man.

The command to submit to man’s authority is valid only in so far as it does not conflict with God’s law, which is what Peter appealed to in Acts 5:29. And I believe it also applies to voting. And I stand with Pilgrim on this post.

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abidingthroughgrace | June 7, 2011 at 10:59 am

DavidW,
I have a long post following here, but I wanted to address this with scriptural and I want us to think clearly on these issues.

Acts 5:29 truly does say that we should obey God rather than men. Peter preaching the gospel after he was “strictly charged to not teach in this name,” I think is a bit different than submitting to the government regarding voting. Voting is not a government law prohibiting preaching the gospel or requiring us to go against the commandments of God. You have to stretch the passage to fit in this discussion.

In the passage below Peter is explaining how as believers who have tasted and seen the glories of Christ and his goodness, we are to live different. We are to be set apart. We are to be honorable.

1 Peter 2:13-17
13 Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. 17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

This is the will of God, that we are subject to human institution. Paul gets into the mix as well in Romans 13, which is part of the application of the amazing chapters 1-11. Chapter 12 begins the how we are to live, being renewed, being living sacrifices, the marks of a true Christian, being subject to authorities, loving your neighbor, making no provision for the flesh.

Romans 13:1-7
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

We are under the rule of law and human institutions in this time and place in history for God’s good pleasure according to his will. Voting is not addressed in the Bible. Voting as in this discussion is something relevant to this culture and of our day and not relevant to the time that Peter and Paul were writing. If we are to follow good hermeneutic principals, we need to dig the eternal truth principal from these passages and apply them to today. The truth principal is to be subject to the institutions and governing authorities…which include driving the speed limit, paying your taxes, and having the privilege (arguably responsibility) of voting. It isn’t a mandate, it is a privilege – a privilege I believe is something we are subject to as believers to be honoring to our leaders (1 Pet 2) and honoring to God who put it in place (Rom 13:1-3).

So, in my opinion we should vote. The bigger question is for whom and according to what principals?

You said this:
“then if I vote for him I bear the responsibility for placing him in authority, I must share the responsibility for God’s judgment on this nation because of him (and his appointees), and essentially I have done my part to send many more into a Christless eternity because of my vote for a “lesser” evil man.”

By your logic, you also then bear/share in the responsibility of the administration that supports abortions and gay marriage if you vote for a 3rd party or for the guy that isn’t a Mormon (which = negative voting by the way).

This concerns me more though…How is it that you bear or share in the responsibility of any of this when scripture tells us very clearly that the authorities are put in place by God for his work? (Rom 13:1-4) How is it that you have any part in who (God chooses as his elect) goes to Hell through voting (for God’s chosen authorities)? This is way way way above our pay grade.

I don’t understand the logic of voting for a non-believer who is against abortion/gay marriage (just 2 big issues to talk about) is as bad as voting for a non-believer who is for abortion/gay marriage. How is voting for a non-believer who has good economic ideas as bad as voting for a non-believer who is incompetent economically?

sincerely with hope in He who governs the universe,
-abidingthroughgrace

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Pilgrim | June 7, 2011 at 11:03 am

@ abidingthorughgrace:
Not all that glitters Mormon, is pro-life gold:
http://defendingcontending.com/2011/06/07/well-is-he-or-isnt-he-2/

@ DavidW:
I wholeheartedly concur.

@Doreen:
Very interesting question . . . “Should Christians vote?” Very interesting indeed. Perhaps the genesis of a coming DefCon post.

;o)

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abidingthroughgrace | June 7, 2011 at 11:07 am

Pilgrim and others…
By the way, please don’t take my comments as support for Romney. I have not intentions of supporting him and my comments above are directed towards a “generic candidate”.

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Keith Walker | June 7, 2011 at 11:12 am

I have a different take on voting for Romney. The guy hopes to become a God some day. I don’t want him practicing with my country.

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Pilgrim | June 7, 2011 at 12:40 pm

Thanks to Doreen’s question and the direction of this comment thread, I will be publishing a post on Thursday (Lord willing) addressing the matter of Christians voting for the lesser of two evils. I hope everyone’s not burned out on the subject by then.

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DavidW | June 7, 2011 at 2:16 pm

abidingthroughgrace:

I think we are basically in agreement on many points, but have some miscommunication on others. When I referred to Acts 5, I wasn’t intending to stretch that to apply to voting in general, nor to fit some anti-government stand. I am not anti-voter, nor anti-government, nor am I suggesting one resist governmental authorities or break the law. Absolutely not. I understand Peter was resisting the law of men because such law conflicted with God’s law. My tie in with Acts 5 is that there will come times when our submission to God must supersede our submission to men. Those who say we MUST vote because that is my “civic duty”, are not considering other factors, such as conscience which seeks to be conformed to the righteousness of God. In other words, if my conscience tells me my only 2 choices are both evil (say one is anti-christian in doctrine and the other is anti-christian in practice), but I’m told I must choose one of them anyway in the name of civic duty, then I have yielded to the way of men in defiance of God’s righteousness. I don’t see how God will hold me innocent of such betrayal to Him in such an event (in light of the command to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness).

Human governments and authority is a good thing for law and order in society, else we would have anarchy and chaos, rule by the strong at the expense of the weak. Thus we abide by our local, state and federal laws. They are intended for everyone’s benefit. And we pay our taxes, we do jury duty, we abide by speed laws, we go through all legal proceedings, etc. Thus I am in complete agreement with Rom. 13:1-7. But certainly you would have to agree there are exceptions. When it was an ordinance to stop doing business with Jews, then when it was law to turn in the Jew to the Nazi government, should Christians have abided by such law? When it is law in America to teach evolution in school, should the Christian teacher teach evolution (which is a denial of God’s truth)? Do you see my point here?

Of course voting was not an issue in N.T. times. What is at issue is our responsibility as followers of Christ to the unsaved world, to which we have been commissioned to preach the Gospel. I have no problem with voting on issues: school levis, bridge repairs, zonings, etc. I don’t even have a problem with voting on certain people to do certain jobs. But when it comes to placing someone in authority over the culture, my vote helps determine who gets that position. Thus I bear a very real responsibility in the matter. “Well, you didn’t really place him there, God did”. Well, sure He did. He’s also the One who placed both candidates there. But am I then not held accountable for my vote? For an extreme example, but to illustrate my point, lets say Hitler ran against Stalin. Now, if it’s my civic duty to vote for one or the other, and if it is my biblical duty to submit to every ordinance of man, then I MUST vote for one or the other. God indeed determines which of the two gets in, but that doesn’t make me an innocent bystander. I threw in my vote for one evil man or the other to “rule” (tyranically) over the lives of millions who suffered under such “rule”, and thus I bear a certain responsibility there. There’s no way of getting around that. Do you see no inherent conflict with preaching Christ, while bearing the fruit of supporting, condoning, even bringing into prominence evil, or evil people? I don’t see how we can use the reasoning “well, it wasn’t my fault”, any more than Nazi soldiers can say “it wasn’t my fault, I was just following orders”. And I don’t see how we can preach standing for holiness and righteousness on the one hand, condemning ungodly rulers elsewhere, then vote for an ungodly ruler for our own country, under the pretext that he isn’t “as bad” as the other guy. Once we go down that “lesser evil is better than worse evil” road of compromise, we have opened the door to all manner of “lesser evil” and as a result have lost the principle of purity and holiness.

To sum up, I’ll reiterate, I am not against voting in general. But I cannot reconcile preaching truth and righteousness on one hand, while in the other hand helping to place in power over the culture (and in reality, that’s exactly what voting for a ruler does), a man and his administration which is, or signs into law, what is contrary to that same truth and righteousness.

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abidingthroughgrace | June 7, 2011 at 2:54 pm

DavidW (& others),
Totally reasonable, thanks for the clarification, and i think we do agree. The good news here is that in the US we don’t have to vote…so (for now) we don’t have to deal with a vote for Hitler or vote for Stalin. In the US we are, praise God, free to not vote if the decision is like, say McCain vs Obama. In my opinion this last election was a total lesser of two losers choice that puts a Christian in a tough place of: 1) pinch your nose and vote for one, or 2) don’t vote. This is a very difficult decision.

David & Pilgrim (or anyone else) out of curiosity, though I have another question for you and things i am thinking about for myself…trying to sort through how to make this decision:

1) Let’s use Obama as an example by classifying him as non-believer, pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, anti-christian, pro-black liberation theology, etc. I think it is fair to say that he stands in opposition of Christ and Biblical truth. If a Christian votes for Obama, is it sinful? Is it a sin to vote for him?

2) Similarly, Let’s take Romney (topic of this discussion) and classify him as non-believer, formerly pro-abortion then anti-abortion then…well we don’t know, but he states that he will be pro-life if elected, anti-gay marriage, ultimately anti-christian since he is a Mormon, pro-Mormon theology, etc. I think it is fair to say that he stands in opposition of Christ and Biblical truth Would it be a sin to vote for him?

3) Finally, let’s take Newt Gingrich as a different kind of candidate. Let’s classify him as Catholic therefore non-believer, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, pro-christian, cheated on several of his wives (yes plural) several times, but probably supports Biblical thought even though he is likely non-believer…or at least he isn’t anti-Bible/Anti-christian. Is it a sin to vote for him? Is he close enough?

What do you think about these options in deciding….because we all know if we wait for the John MacArthur to run we’ll never vote since the faithful christian believer’s life of humility and love and service is contrary to the life of politics.
Thanks,
-atg

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DavidW | June 7, 2011 at 3:19 pm

atg:

Thank you for your kind and courteous reply. “Lesser of two losers”, “pinch your nose and vote for one”, LOL, I like those!

As for your questions, I can only answer for myself, but it would be sin for me to vote for an ungodly man for either governor or president, for the reasons I gave in my last comment. And by ungodly, I mean one who holds to beliefs or practices which are contrary to the clear teaching of God’s word.

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Pilgrim | June 7, 2011 at 3:27 pm

Dear ATG and DavidW:

If you guys don’t stop, then you’ll steal all my thunder for my upcoming post, there will be nothing else to discuss, and you’ll accuse me of plagiarizing your ideas. :o)
Perhaps I should publish the post tomorrow instead of Wednesday. Hmmmm.

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abidingthroughgrace | June 7, 2011 at 3:34 pm

Pilgrim,
you know i am just going to cut and paste my comments from here into the comments of that new post!!!

<):o{)

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Pilgrim | June 7, 2011 at 3:39 pm

LOL. That’s fine, but if you guys keep going, I’ll have nothing to write. Both of you will have said it all.

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davidw | June 7, 2011 at 6:16 pm

Pilgrim, I’d love to see your post. And I’m sure the subject of lesser of two evils will quickly wander to other applications of the theme. Sounds like some good stuff.

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Ralph M. Petersen | June 8, 2011 at 4:27 pm

I am a Christian. But I am not going to vote in the next election for a pastor; I already have one of those. I want a president who will be a constitutional conservative.
I don’t believe Mitt Romney is that but I know that, if he is the opposition candidate, the other choice is unthinkable. By the way, Obama is no more Christian than Romney is.
I remember, when Jimmy Carter was the candidate for president, how many stupid, stupid, STUPID Christians voted for him only because he was a professing Christian and a Sunday School teacher in a Baptist Church. That was about as dumb as voting for someone because he promises hope and change.

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John | June 14, 2011 at 5:23 pm

If the premise of this article is true, why hasn’t Harry Reid, also a Mormon, led thousands astray yet? How can you trust a politician, if he is Mormon, and hasn’t even begun to indoctrinate his senatorial brethren? Baptists, please join us in creating a better future.

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Pilgrim | June 14, 2011 at 8:47 pm

@John:
Because Harry Reid is NOT the president of the United States. Many people around the world know who the president of the U.S. is, but ask them who Harry Reid is and see the blank stares. Reid’s Mormonism (which is much less publicized than Romney’s) means as much to those in other nations as if they were told Peggy, the cashier at register 5 at Piggly Wiggly, is a Mormon.

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Sue | June 19, 2011 at 3:20 am

Mitt Romney is not just a Mormon but articles said he was even a former Mormon Missionary !

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Takeusback | June 28, 2011 at 9:22 pm

It is amazing how the world is against the lds church. As I continue to study and look into it I have found the Mormon church to be a church based on Christ and doing good. I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want a president who believes in these things. You should all do some research on the Mormon church and figure out for yourself what they believe rather assume everything everyone says is true. When it comes down to it I want a president who will push this country to be better, and the morals and standards that Romney has can only help him be that president we need.

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Pilgrim | June 29, 2011 at 8:50 am

Dear Takeusback:

After reading your comment I can only come to one of two conclusions:

1). You’ve been too busy studying Mormonism to have taken time to review this blog’s plethora of posts exposing Mormonism for the false religion it is (most of which use LDS materials and are not based off of what others say as you implied).

2). You are an LDS apologist posing as someone who is simply studying LDS doctrines.

If you’re the latter, you’re wasting your time here. If you’re the former, I suggest you get a hold of old LDS published materials . . . before the revisions began taking place to sanitize Mormonism to make it palatable (in order to deceive) the unknowing public.

Myself (and others on here) have studied LDS doctrine and it is obvious that Mormonism is not based on the Christ of Scripture but a false Christ formed in the imaginations of men like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. It’s because of the very study of Mormon doctrine that we reject this false religion.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 30, 2011 at 10:23 am

A lot of my voting life has been to vote against the worst candidate – i.e., voting for the lesser of two evils. Sometimes I wonder why bother voting at all, and then I have to think that if I don’t vote, then I have no business complaining about who got in. So voting for the lesser of two evils often becomes the only moral way to vote.

As long as it is voting in the primaries, I would NEVER vote for a Mormon, any more than I would vote for a Scientologist – both are science-fiction religions whose proponents believe they will become some superior being. However, if it ever comes down to Romney vs a Democrat, I would have to vote for the lesser of two evils; Democrats are always more evil than Republicans in my book.

For Takeusback, I think Pilgrim responded beautifully!

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Pilgrim | June 30, 2011 at 10:39 am

Dear Glenn:

I tackled the issue of “voting for the lesser of two evils” in the post Should Christians Vote for the Lesser of Two Evils posted shortly after this one about Romney. Even if you disagree at the conclusion of reading it, I think it provides some great food for thought to chew on.

– Pilgrim

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 30, 2011 at 10:41 am

Pilgrim,

I guess I’ll have to take a look-see!

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Annie | September 20, 2011 at 9:13 am

After hearing this former Mormon state the facts of what a Mormon believes about our Lord Jesus here: http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-radio/episode.php?episodeid=19633
I am still grieved and mourning inside my spirit.

The only association I would want to have is to preach the true gospel to these poor deluded souls. I am still speechless as I consider the fearfulness of a such a deceived person in leadership of this country. If God allows this man to come into this place, I would say that it must be for the judgment of His people who lacked His righteous judgment. 2 Chron. 7:14 — are we as God’s people humbling ourselves and confessing and repenting of our sins? Or are we just drawing nigh to God with our lips and singing songs about Him but our hearts are far from Him? If so, it is for this reason that Isaiah 29:13-15 says God will bring judgment upon a nation — because HIS people (those who take His Name in their mouths, who profess to know Him but in works deny Him, those who are religious professors but not Christ possessors) — His people draw nigh to Him with their speech but in heart, they don’t love, honor and serve Him. If judgment begins at the House of God, could it be that God is giving us our just desserts?

I cannot find the passage in the Old Testament, but the principle I’m thinking of is regarding the prophet who would not so much as look in the direction of the wicked man except for the fact that the was standing beside the King of Israel. When God warns us to have no company with evil men, to come out from among them and not to even touch the unclean thing — I believe He is serious in His warnings. I am serious about repenting, watching and being ready — for surely, Jesus must be standing up at the door, just waiting for our Father to say — “Go, your bride has made herself ready!” Maranatha! Thy Kingdom come and Thy will be done in my life and in this nation. In Jesus’ Name

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Paul Shumway | April 1, 2012 at 7:44 pm

“To elect a Mormon President is to advance the cause of the Mormon Church.” I just don’t get this. I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) for 45 years and have gone to church every Sunday and I just don’t hear the things about the Mormons that some of you are talking about. Many of the things you have quoted in this blog just aren’t true. I believe in Christ, prayer, repentance and scripture. Strong families are important to me and I love my neighbors, including Baptists, and I have conservative values. Just like most Baptists, I don’t believe in abortion, big government, high taxes, etc. I consider people like Baptists my allies. Why do you talk about Mormons like we are some sort of plague? It is offensive to me. I am a Christian through and through. I work hard and keep the laws and try to be honest and I think I contribute very positively to my country. I love the teachings of the Apostle Paul and I have scripture study every day with my children. I am doing my best to raise children who are good citizens, honest, hard working AND conservative. Why do you believe things that Anti-Mormons say about Mormons? I have never heard a derogatory word about a Baptist said in my church in 45 years. I don’t know any anti Baptists and I wouldn’t read their website if I did. Mormons don’t bash other religions. We just try to follow Christ. And do you really think Mormon chruch leaders would tell Romney what to do as president, if he were elected? Seriously? Or what are you worried about? Romney is who he is and whether he is Mormon or Baptist or Catholic, he has his political views and you can expect him to follow them. Fortunately he is conservative. It is Obama you should be worried about because he is more liberal than he acts. He is trying to keep somewhat moderate now so he can be re-elected). Just wait and see what he does if he is re-elected.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | April 2, 2012 at 5:27 am

Paul,

It is difficult for me to believe most of what your comment states. The LDS has attacked true Christianity from the beginning, and even in the temple ceremony until fairly recently a Christian pastor was identified as a tool of Satan. Good works is not what makes a Christian, rather a true Christian follows biblical doctrine. You must know that the LDS god, who is an exalted man living on another planet, is not the same identity as the God of the Bible. The Christ of the LDS also does not have the same identity at the Christ of the Bible. Very little LDS doctrine resembles biblical truth. The Book of Mormon has been proven to be fraudulent, as has been the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith has been proven to be a false prophet, which undermines the entire LDS faith.

I have been studying the LDS church for close to 40 years and I have yet to see anything on this blog about Mormons which wasn’t 100% factual. If you would like to discuss the issue with me personally, e-mail me at jude3.gctwm@yahoo.com. I’d be more than happy to respond to any questions you have.

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gtarpley | July 22, 2012 at 10:43 am

For one thing the founding fathers of America were hard core christians and they did believe in Jesus Christ, there is no evidence , let me repeat not one shred of evidence of them being deist, non believers in Christ Jesus. that thought came from socialist progressives authors triing to( and sounds like they acheiving) destort history about our founders beliefs in God and His son Jesus Christ.
Mormans , they totally deni Jesus and God the Father, dont take my word for it google up who do mormans say Jesus is, or better yet google ” what do mormans beleive.

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Jim | August 20, 2012 at 12:51 pm

This Country has left the word of God and its sound Biblical teachings a long time ago. So for us today to think by voting into office a true Bible Believing Christian will changed God’s judgment that’s coming on this vile Godless nation doesn’t know the God of the Bible.
The Mormon teachings are Anti-Christ and Mitt is a type of Anti-Christ, there is no way to get around this if you truly believe the word of God. If you are praying for our Lords quick return and believe in the Rapture, then the only thing you have to fear is God, not man. I for one will not vote for a type of Anti-Christ, and both Obama and Mitt fit that Biblical Description….

Shain1611

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Rve Limiter | August 20, 2012 at 4:03 pm

Manfred wrote:
“So let us embrace the tension – uphold our civic duty and vote as informed citizens yet put our hope and confidence in Christ alone.”

Excellent words!! Wish I had said it :<)

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belle | August 20, 2012 at 6:11 pm

I am a Christian and I am voting for Romney he is our only hope he will not run the country by his religion but obama the muslim will. I was born and raised in an old fashioned Holiness church and I am still Holiness and a mormon is as much a Christian today as most of the so called Christians.
THINK ABOUT IT.

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Manfred | August 20, 2012 at 8:06 pm

Rev – thanks for your kind words. I’ve been sitting under the biblical teaching of very well qualified elders at my local church and the Word is penetrating my sinful soul, for the glory of our Lord.

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Mickey Merrie | August 21, 2012 at 7:56 am

The presidential elections have become such a joke, that I am voting for Pat Paulson…
Ihonestly think he can win this time! If he can get the Chicago suburbs, and the 119% from the Wis gone some recall, and draw close to 110% in various other key states, by Joke, I think he can pull it off at last!!!

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karen | August 22, 2012 at 7:33 am

I’m pondering the ‘lesser of two evils’. Had the children of Israel been given the lesser of two evils to stand behind, I wonder which they would have chosen…baal or molech.

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D.Toney | September 2, 2012 at 7:35 am

Scenario for the sake of argument: What if #1 candidate (claims Christianity for political reasons) in office would mean innocent people would die because he refused to fight for their right to live, but #2 candidate (claims Mormonism) would fight for the rights of innocent people to live who would otherwise face certain death? Would you vote then? If so, which one would get the vote?

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fleebabylon | September 2, 2012 at 11:45 am

“I’m pondering the ‘lesser of two evils’. Had the children of Israel been given the lesser of two evils to stand behind, I wonder which they would have chosen…baal or molech.”

Very good point. Sadly the republican party has brainwashed evangelicals and uses them as political puppets. But Gods professing people love to have it so.

-Jim

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fleebabylon | September 2, 2012 at 12:10 pm

“but #2 candidate (claims Mormonism) would fight for the rights of innocent people to live who would otherwise face certain death? ”

First I will have to ask the mother in Iraq who lost her teenage son when a good American “Christian” soldier came over and blew his brains out instead of preaching the Gospel to him. Then I will ask the mother in Afghanistan whose baby was accidentally killed (collateral damage) by US Bombs in the holy war that “Gods party” started. All the while no real change was made to stop abortion in this country under their leadership.

To be “fair and balanced” I will also go to the heads of the military industrial complex and fat cat oil execs who get insanely rich from the republican wars that we fight for “Gods purposes” (quote Sarah Palin). After that I will poll the local evangelical churches that are full of divorce and remarriage, greed, and hypocrisy. Such rightouss ones should be able to offer some real “Godly” advise on the only two sins that matter – homosexuality and abortion (the ones that dont upset their tithe paying members).

Once I have a chance to process all of the responses I will get back with you on who should get the vote. but it may be a tough choice. To bad that pastor takes a 501c exemption from ceaser and is prohibited from just coming out and plainly telling me who to vote for. Guess I should just be thankful that I still have good “Christian” leaders like glen beck, bill o’rielly, rush, palin, pat robertson, and dobson to point me in the right direction. I know many here are cessanionists but I’m seeing a vision of a hero riding in to DC on a white horse real soon.

-Jim

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Andrew | September 3, 2012 at 9:06 am

We are in the end times folks, it does not matter who you vote for as you can’t vote away Prophesy or tribulation, your next president is already decided no matter which way you vote, democracy is merley an illusion. God is allowing satan to make his stand so all Nations will wonder after him and the next president will be supporting him no mater who it is or what party he belongs to.

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Richard H | September 3, 2012 at 12:26 pm

That comment, about “good Christians” not supporting a Mormon, is straight out of the Saul Alinsky, Democrat playbook. Who do you think benefits from that type of thinking? AND, nothing was said about Obama’s religion. Do you really think he is a Christian just because (recently) he says he is? Just a short time ago he confided to a friend that he is a Muslim. At other times n his life he has said he is an atheist. But, Obama always tells the truth, so I guess we can believe all three!. Just based on his life and his actions (the fruits of his life), I would say that there is a very high probability that he is an atheist. There is no room in his ego for TWO messiahs!
He is pushing, for all he is worth, global Socialism/communism (with the UN in charge of EVERYONE). Just what religion do those people (Lenin, Stalin, Mao) believe in? None. That is the answer.
So, don’t fall for the very clever Democrat strategerists who don’t want you to vote for a Mormon. Obama is the true road to hell that we need to fear more than anything!!

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Rev Limiter | September 3, 2012 at 7:42 pm

Andrew wrote:
“We are in the end times folks”

We are??!!

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Andrew | September 4, 2012 at 8:05 am

As a watcher and observer of the times, i believe there is a great deal of evidence to suggest the end times are certainly close Rev. The secular antichrist beastly new world order is growing in front of our faces on a daily basis if you have the eyes to see that calls evil good and good evil, no matter who you vote for. Do you strongly disagree, are you asking or is your question rhetorical? If some had said to me twenty years ago that christians would be arrested for preaching the Bible i would have laughed and it’s only going to get worse, no matter who your president is as our lord warned us so we would know beforehand. I think it’s time we should be praying for fellow christians that they be given the sight to see what is happening and the strength to overcome in the following years as things will get more and more perilous for believers and we pray that God’s will be done not ours by trying to vote our way out of prophesy which is not possible anyway.

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Rev Limiter | September 4, 2012 at 11:05 am

Thanks Andrew for your reply.
Yes, my question was serious in as much as I’m to be about my Fathers business and living a disciplined life for His glory. I want to do everything possible that would honor Him so it does matter who I vote for and yes, I’m fully aware of God’s sovereignty!

As one brother wrote:
” I would argue that having a Mormon president would be far better than a socialist/liberal who will act to increase abortions and legalize gay marriage. Which is more important for eternity?”
Everything you and I do NOW- will last for time and eternity! I realize that things are getting worse but that’s all the more reason for true Christians everywhere to press on!

In the words of William Ceary:
“There are grave difficulties on every hand, and more looming ahead. Therefore, we must go forward.”
God bless you-

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Kay | September 4, 2012 at 12:20 pm

There are more than two names on the ballot, educate yourself on who’s running.

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fleebabylon | September 4, 2012 at 2:42 pm

” I would argue that having a Mormon president would be far better than a socialist/liberal who will act to increase abortions and legalize gay marriage. ”

Such a statement would make american evangelical jesus proud, because if they were to vote against the party of war and greed, or focus on stopping divorce and remarriage in their own churches, you know that would make them feel less pious. Praying that saints see that the republican party is just as satanic as the liberal party. I used to be brainwashed by the evangelical church on this issue too, the aclu and liberals were my enemies. If the anti-christ rises in america he will be a republican.

-Jim

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Rev Limiter | September 4, 2012 at 3:42 pm

Kay wrote:
“There are more than two names on the ballot, educate yourself on who’s running.”

Thanks for the insight; sure would hate to throw my vote away!!

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Cassie | September 4, 2012 at 7:06 pm

If the Antichrist rises in America it’s going to be arnold schwartznegger

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fleebabylon | September 5, 2012 at 4:25 am

One last thing as I fear I have said to much already.

1Corinthians 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people– not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler–not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

The christian right has many evangelical church members very concerned with the sins of the left. This gives the evangelicals a sense of religious pride and self righteousness while diverting attention from the condition of their own lives and churches. Greed, divorce/remarriage, pornography, false prophesy, countless forms of false teaching, love of pleasure, and rampant worldliness consume the so called churches and bring reproach to the name of Christ. Does God then call this very group to judge the sins of non believers?

Does this do anything besides further harden the hearts of liberals more against the truth, because they perceive Jesus to be a greedy, patriotic, self righteous pharisee and hypocrite like his supposed followers.

Picture this in your mind – Jesus sitting and eating with sinners, bringing the kingdom to them.

Compare that to Paul’s command to not fellowship with professing believers who are full of greed, idolatry, and unrepentant sexual sin.

Seems like lunch with a homosexual or abortion doctor is a better option than worship service in the typical evangelical church.

It will be more tolerable for sodom on the day of judgment than for this generation of self righteous religious hypocrites who are increased with political power and patriotic morality but are really poor, blind, miserable, and naked.

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Linda | September 5, 2012 at 5:56 am

” I would argue that having a Mormon president would be far better than a socialist/liberal who will act to increase abortions and legalize gay marriage. ”

I kindly and respectfully disagree.. Mormonism will fit into the religions all coming together much more easily than a closet Muslim or Islam. Islam is very hostile to all religions. Once Romney if elected comes to office, and things seem to be going much better, more people will put down their guards and differences and welcome Mormonism as Christian

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Jon Gleason | September 5, 2012 at 7:00 am

1Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

We are to pray that government will act in ways that enable us to lead a quiet and peaceable life in godliness and honesty.

Where I live, the leaders of all political parties support policies that make it harder for Christians to live peaceably in godliness, passing laws that restrict our freedoms to speak the truth about certain sins, using confiscatory tax policies and then redirecting our money towards immoral actions which we could not support, etc. Churches can still “discriminate” for hiring ministers, so we can require a godly life for that position, but not for other employees. (Not an issue for us because we don’t even have a paid minister).

When we live in a country where we are allowed to have any say in who will be given authority, it seems to me we should use our influence for those who are going to implement policies that best reflect the things we are told to pray for.

We are not told to pray that they will be godly, or that they will advocate right doctrine, or have perfect constitutional credentials, or do everything we would hope in foreign policy. We are told to pray that we will be able to live peaceably in godliness and honesty.

I don’t know if there are any candidates who fit that description very well, but if there are, those would be the candidates that one could vote for with a clear conscience, that one has voted consistently with the things we have been told to pray for in Scripture. A candidate that requires employers, even Christian ones, even religious organisations, to provide abortion coverage in their insurance plan is not one who is allowing people to live peaceably in godliness, and defeating such a candidate would be pretty high on my list.

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Linda | September 5, 2012 at 9:46 pm

I totally agree with you Jon Gleason. How many Christians have prayed for Obama, for his salvation, for God to grant him the fear of the LORD, for God to open his eyes to see what a HUGE and serious responsibility he has. Obama will have to answer to God for all he has done just like all of us will. I hate what he stands for,, but I think of Paul who appealed to Festus-Acts 25:4 and even shared the Gospel with him. Oh that we would be slow to slander and quick to pray. that we would be quick to respect is position but hate even the stained clothes, to snatch people from the fire and remember that the effectual fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much. If it were not for God’s mercy and grace GO I. In the world’s eyes we might be better than Obama but in God’s –“All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.”

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Jon Gleason | September 5, 2012 at 11:01 pm

Linda, the ruler when Paul wrote was, as near as we can tell, the Emperor Nero. If Christians could pray for Nero, I think we can pray for Obama. The prayer we are commanded to pray for all leaders is that they will govern rightly, so that those who live in godliness and honesty can live in peace. But that doesn’t mean we can’t pray for his salvation as well.

But of course, to pray for someone is not to vote for him, and it is appropriate for those considering a vote to discuss what the man does and says. An honest discussion of reasons to vote or not vote for someone is not slander, but as you rightly say, too often political discussions wander into slander.

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Linda | September 6, 2012 at 7:59 am

a hardy AMEN Jon,, you get it~ Paul prayed for Nero and he was so vile and perverse waayyy more than Obama

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Andrew | September 8, 2012 at 8:33 am

Amen to praying for our leaders, not matter how bad they may seem. We should also bear in mind that they may be even doing God’s will to put us through fiery trails and the testing of faith to refine us. God is allowing greater and greater persecution of Christians leading up to the coming of our Lord again.
“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet 1:5-9)
“James 1:2-4 NIV Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything”

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todd3588 | September 8, 2012 at 2:18 pm

We’re not voting for a Pastor are we?

Todd
Texas

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D.Toney | September 9, 2012 at 3:20 pm

My question, too, Todd3588 . . . this is a secular situation, not a church. We cant hold a nonChristian to Christian standards. Suppose no candidate claimed to be a Christian. We just don’t vote because of it?? In my view, if you don’t vote, you are in essence voting for the other guy.

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Christian | September 14, 2012 at 8:43 am

Didn’t read all the posts, but lesser of two evils is STILL evil. Why does it seem everyone has forgotten the ability to Write In a vote? Standing steadfast requires us to stick with it regardless of winning according to man. None of the so called candidates are godly men (I’m including the other parties as well). The system is corrupt, by playing the game we allowing evil to make our decisions. MANY who call themselves Christians PROMOTE the ‘lesser evil’.

Love what Karen said : “I’m pondering the ‘lesser of two evils’. Had the children of Israel been given the lesser of two evils to stand behind, I wonder which they would have chosen…baal or molech.”

Step Off the wagon and be true to the Lord, choose good! Write in the only one who could be good!

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David S. | September 15, 2012 at 12:58 pm

Good series of posts with a lot of light and only a little smoke and fire! I have a couple thoughts – I would love feedback from any of you – recognizing this is an OLD series of posts, I can only hope…
1. All the posts on this Blog (for the most part) acknowledge that as Christians we are to Submit to governing authorities, Pray for them, seek a calm and peaceable life, etc…..But this post is addressing the question of Voting – or not – for a flawed individual to be the Executive of the God ordained and Sovereignly ordered Political System where we abide – the USA.
2. The end game is to be salt and light to the World – To Glorify God and enjoy Him forever; for the spread of the Gospel and the work of the Church.
3. If you live in the USA, your governing authority is the constitution and the Amendments. This document (written by men – deists, Christians, or whatever, who held various views on relationship with God) assumes that citizens are to exercise the right to elect the people who will govern within the limits of the founding documents (Federal) or State/Local Constitutions/Charters/By-laws, etc. We all know that there is little respect for the Founding Documents.
4. In the same way the early church submitted to Caesar/Appealed to Caesar and other local authorities, I believe we too should submit to our Governing Authority (The Constitution) that God has placed us under. Whether we like it or not, it is where God put us. Obedient submission therefore would imply Voting.
5. All candidates are Sinners. (All mankind are sinners, too) Politicians are a special breed of Sinner (more Public then the rest of us Sinners, usually). Any Sinner we vote for is going to FAIL to follow Christ, pre-eminent in all things. (you know, even if John MacArthur were president, he would fail – I think??).
6. We have a submissive responsibility to submit to our governing authority which is the Constitution, etc., which assumes voting to elect an individual (Sinner) to work within the Political Body to which we are subject. THEREFORE – We have a responsibility as submisive slaves (doulos) of Christ to choose which Sinner will represent us in this democratic Republic where God has placed us.
7. Our Voting then must be to Glorify God, and to allow us to Spread the Gospel, and to live quiet and peaceable lives. HaHa….big help, huh? How do our choices in voting allow that? One post suggested we would be responsible for the evil done by those we help to elect? Well, as we are under the Constitution, where God has placed us – we have a responsibility to do the best we can – voting in submission to our Governing Authority.
8. I would argue that we vote for the best of the flawed candidates that will most likely allow us to continue to have the freedom to Glorify God – in evangelism, in Worship, in speaking Truth in the Public Square.
9. The principles laid down by the Founders have given the American church unprecedented opportunity for over 200 years to share the Gospel, here in the USA and around the World. We have a heavy responsibility. To whom much is given, much is required. I would say that as a nation, we have dropped the ball. We live in a post Christian culture with growing hostility to any who will speak God’s Word truthfully. Let’s hope that God will forgive us a national historic failure and sovereignly choose to give us more time to enjoy the freedom God has granted us. Someone posted that some of the greatest growth in the Church is in regions of persecution. We may get the opportunity to experience that in this generation.

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fleebabylon | September 16, 2012 at 6:04 am

“Obedient submission therefore would imply Voting.”

I am so tired from jumping through the hoops required to get to this conclusion that I don’t have energy left to vote. According to scripture we are to pray for and pay taxes to our national king, there is no manadate to vote. I’ll tell you what, the saddest indictment of carnality against american christendom is the schemes they come up with to feel justified in voting for republicans.

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Jon Gleason | September 16, 2012 at 12:24 pm

David, excellent post.

Fleebabylon, obedient submission means not merely obeying commands but a submissive spirit. It was the intent of the original documents that citizens choose the officials that would exercise the authority in those documents. One can choose to obey the letter of the law without obeying the spirit of the law, but we could hardly call that obedient submission.

David’s statement is spot on — it would “imply voting.” Voting is not an absolute requirement, but it is implied, and in general, that is what Christians should do.

Whether that vote should be used for a candidate that is likely to win, or for a minor party candidate, or as a protest write-in vote, is another question, but in general, Christians who live in a country where voting is granted to citizens should see it as a duty, not merely a privilege.

Perhaps we should look at it this way. If someone prays for God to provide for their financial needs, but won’t work when they could, we would say they are irresponsible and have no right to pray for God to provide. If someone prays for God to save the lost but won’t give the Gospel to them when they could, we would say their prayer is almost blasphemous. If someone prays for the Lord to provide for the financial needs of their church, but won’t give, we would say they really shouldn’t be expecting God to answer.

Likewise, if someone prays for the government to allow them to live godly lives peaceably, but won’t use their opportunity to influence the government towards that, why pray?

And each person presumably has to evaluate whether that influence is greatest by voting for the least offensive “feasible” candidate, or whether a third-party or protest vote is likely to send a message which will hopefully influence the main parties to choose better candidates, or possibly elevate a third party into contention. One would be hard-pressed to make a Biblical case that any approach is necessarily best, so then it falls to individual believers to exercise their wisdom as best as possible.

I believe Obama’s targeting of Christian organisations and Christian-owned businesses with the abortion insurance mandate is a significant problem for those who want to live a godly life peaceably, and I doubt Romney will continue that mandate. That is at least one case where the Biblical principles would call Christians to vote to defeat Obama. But there are other issues.

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Kb | October 2, 2012 at 4:49 am

Obama has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour. Romney has not. I am a Christian who will be voting for Obama in November. WWJD? I have a feeling he will touch the candidate that cares for the elderly, disabled, poor, and youth of this country. Thanks
.

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Manfred | October 2, 2012 at 5:10 am

Kb – while the man known as Obama claims to be Christian, is there ANYTHING in his life that looks like the fruit of the Holy Spirit of the living God working in him? “Obama” is a statist who thinks the state should care for people instead of the local church.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | October 2, 2012 at 6:00 am

Kb,
I find it extremely difficult to accept Obama’s claims to be a Christian when he is 100% pro-abortion to the point where he fights tooth and nail to keep Planned Parenthood funded, completely supports and promotes the homosexual agenda to the point of dismantling the DOMA, etc. And he promotes Islam as being a great religion. Just those items alone, without even getting into his class warfare, are totally against God.

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fleebabylon | October 2, 2012 at 6:08 am

Manfred said:

“Obama” is a statist who thinks the state should care for people instead of the local church.”

Manfred, while I agree with you, would it be fair to say we should not look for the state to care for biblical marriage if we should not look for them to care for the poor.

God bless -Jim

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Glenn E. Chatfield | October 2, 2012 at 6:52 am

Fleebablyon,
Just to make a point; it isn’t “biblical marriage” – it is true marriage, real marriage. Of course if it is true it is also biblical. But the state SHOULD look for the state to uphold REAL marriage. After all, real marriage is the foundation of society.

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fleebabylon | October 2, 2012 at 7:00 am

Glenn-
Why do evangelicals lobby to make gay “marriage” illegal but not make divorce illegal?
Selah.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | October 2, 2012 at 7:14 am

Divorce does not redefine what marriage is. Divorce is an abuse of the marriage union. Not only that, but there is such thing as a biblical divorce!

No one is trying to make same-sex fake marriage illegal. What we are trying to stop is the courts redefining what marriage is. The activists courts are making a new legal definition to include same-sex relations under the word “marriage.” Once this has been done, there is no logical reason why they can deny any other union to be covered under the word “marriage.”

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fleebabylon | October 2, 2012 at 7:27 am

“Divorce does not redefine what marriage is.”

It causes those who most evanglical churches openly remarry to commit adultery according to Jesus. Why not legislate against remarriage Glenn? it might empty the pews and stop the cash flow? Better to make the pews feel like rightouss crusaders going after gay “marriage”.

The apostles never were involved in trying to make the world more moral but in judging sin inside the camp instead.

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fleebabylon | October 2, 2012 at 7:30 am

I also want to say this. What if the disgust that evangelicals feel when they hear of a christian voting for obama (how can they be so blind) is the same disgust Jesus feels when evangelicals vote for Romney?

Luke 11:39 And the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | October 2, 2012 at 7:55 am

Just because Christians have specific rules as to divorce and remarriage, that doesn’t mean the rest of society has to play by the same rules.

Your logic is horrid. Same-sex fake marriage is an affront to ALL religions as well as an affront to society as a whole. Whether or not one is a Christian, marriage still has a true definition which describes a particular societal relationship. It is not the government’s right to redefine words or to redefine social institutions which have been in place for thousands of years, just to please a very vocal and aggressive minority population.

There is nothing in Scripture which says that we can’t try to keep society from becoming more corrupt. In this country the people are the government. And as members of the government, as citizens of this country, we have rights not available to citizens in other countries. One of those rights is holding our leadership accountable. And one of those rights includes the ability to make laws to protect society. None of this conflicts with making disciples.

And now you speak for Jesus’ and how HE feels about Christians voting for Romney?

It is reprehensible, in my opinion, for Christians to refuse to exercise their civic duty and participate in the political process in a nation wherein everyone has the responsibility for who their leaders will be. Romney’s presidency will provide a foundation where Christians will still be able to practice their faith openly, while an Obama presidency will shove us more an more underground, while making us poorer and poorer with higher taxes and higher costs of living, as well as more job losses. And an Obama 2nd term will help unleash more terrorism against the U.S. by people who see him as weak.

If you judge whether one should vote for a person based on his religious belief system, then you have limited yourself to virtually no one. I’m not voting for a pastor or other church leader. I’m voting for a president. I didn’t vote for Romney in the primaries because I didn’t believe he was the best choice, but when it comes to the final election and the only real choice is him or Obama (any other vote is thrown away), then I vote for that which is best for the country.

Have you ever voted in a Presidential election? Has everyone you’ve voted for been a 100% fundamental Christian? I sincerely doubt it. Even the likes of Huckabee has a lot of aberrational beliefs. But since he is a Christian I guess he would pass your muster even if he didn’t have a clue about how to run a country. Obama is no more a Christian than is Romney, yet you apparently would rather he have a second term?

I’m really tired of those who won’t vote for Romney because he is a Mormon. That is 100% bigotry. I wouldn’t vote for him in the primaries because he is a RINO and very liberal, but when it comes to a choice between him and Obama, Romney will definitely be better for the nation.

I’m well aware of the Mormon desire to have a member in the President’s seat, with their belief that they could therefore run the country. Anyone believing that an LDS in the President’s seat will lead to the LDS running the nation is just plain ignorant of how our government works.

Having a Mormon in the White House will make the LDS much more visible and much easier to expose for the fraudulent faith that it is.

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fleebabylon | October 2, 2012 at 12:46 pm

Luke 11:39 And the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.

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Rev Limiter | October 2, 2012 at 2:09 pm

Glenn wrote:
“Anyone believing that an LDS in the President’s seat will lead to the LDS running the nation is just plain ignorant of how our government works.”

Yep! You didn’t see the pope trying to run the government when Kennedy was in office!

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naarich@gmail.com | October 5, 2012 at 12:25 am

90% of the population, think mormonism is just like any other Christian religion, baptist, methodist etc. If all those Americans knew more about the mormon faith would they be so eager to get behind the GOP candidate? Here are some points on the mormon religion which Joseph Smith founded and basically made up as he went along.

1. God lives on planet Kolob
2. Jesus and Satan are bothers
3. Jesus lived here in the United States for a bit
4. the garden of eden is in missouri
5. Polygamy (still ok with the fundamentalists)
6. Males will have polygamous celestial sex to populate your own planet when u die
7. “Lying for the Lord” its ok to lie if its to protect the church
8. Magic underwear
9. Black people are direct descendants of Cain and their black skin is a sign of being cursed
10. God literally had sex with Mary to bring Jesus out of the spirit world
11. Joseph Smith the founder of the church is as just as important as Jesus
12. there are trillions of Gods each with their own planet
13. Secret Handshakes
14. White horse prophecy
15. Blood Atonement

Please educate yourself, family and friends on mormonism before casting a ballot.

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fleebabylon | October 5, 2012 at 4:19 am

“Please educate yourself, family and friends on mormonism before casting a ballot.”

Sorry, I am a two issue value voter drone, brainwashed by the christian right, I must vote for romney because “pastor” told me so.

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OntheLord'sside | October 5, 2012 at 7:32 am

This is an awesome discussion among clearly well meaning, intelligent, articulate believers and defenders of the faith. it reminds me why politics and our faith do not mix. it is like oil and water. You can shake it and it appears to be aligned but when it settles, there will be seperation. All the arguements have been persuasive. Were one undecided… perhaps they would have swayed a person one way or the other.

In the end… we must all seek God’s face and ask Him what would He have us to do with our vote. That answer will be clouded with our socialeconomic status, our current state of affairs, the depth of our faith, the depth of our conviction and that which is most important to us.

I am a black, Christian, minister, business owner, father of three (the last one in college), middle class, raised by a single mother of five who has never experienced welfare but have watched it help abundantly and be abused tremendously, preacher, teacher, lecturer who above all things love the Lord.

Sitting out is not an option. Voting for a non candidate is not an option. I wil not decide based on my core beliefs. I will vote to advance the Kingdom of God.

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Jon Gleason | October 5, 2012 at 8:49 am

“Sorry, I am a two issue value voter drone, brainwashed by the christian right, I must vote for romney because “pastor” told me so.”

Jim, some of your rhetoric on this issue is probably negatively impacting anyone who didn’t agree with you already. FWIW.

Some will look at Psalm 106:38-40, and say that the shedding of the innocent blood of sons and daughters must be stopped, and that votes should always be used whenever possible to defeat those who advocate such killing. Those who vote on such a basis are not voting merely because “pastor told me so.”

Others will look at Isaiah 5:20 (“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil”) and say that government should not be putting its stamp of approval on that which God calls an abomination (homosexual “marriage”). They will say that votes should always be used whenever possible to defeat those who advocate calling evil good.

You may not agree with their conclusions. You may have some pretty reasonable Scriptural grounds for your approach. But you should not discuss the matter in a way that disrespects those who have gone to the Scriptures and come to different conclusions, because this simply isn’t iron-clad. Scripture does not say anywhere, “Thus saith the Lord, Thou shalt not cast a civic vote,” or even, “Thou shalt not cast a civic vote for an unbeliever,” or even, “Thou shalt not cast a civic vote for an idolater.” It does specifically acknowledge even idolaters as God-ordained government officials (Romans 13).

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Mickey Merrie | October 5, 2012 at 9:30 am

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Mickey Merrie | October 5, 2012 at 9:31 am

There are 2 links, and you should click on the link above the Ben Smith Navy Seal video to watch it first…

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Mickey Merrie | October 5, 2012 at 9:40 am

For those who cannot vote for Romney, I understand why…
But consider this: While neither party is an example of godly leadership, the Demacrats, and their incumbant have demonstrated a decidedly anti-christian agenda, a pro self agenda, and a pro death agenda.
Scripture does say that those who are not against us are WHAT? So, you have a choice right? Vote or not vote. A non vote, is NOT a vote against the party that is openly AGAINST our Lord…

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fleebabylon | October 5, 2012 at 1:57 pm

John-

The God of the Bible hates a lot more than a couple pet sins of evangelicalism. The same disgust that evangelicals feel for liberals is what God feels for evangelicals sho committ countless abominations yet cry out about homosexuality and abortion. The things that God hates describe both the liberals and conservatives – the systems of the world.

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.
Eze 16:50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

Jer 7:4 Do not trust in these deceptive words: ‘This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD.’
Jer 7:5 “For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another,
Jer 7:6 if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm,
Jer 7:7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.
Jer 7:8 “Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail.

Why do many evangelicals hate liberals…

http://fleebabylon.wordpress.com/2012/09/05/why-many-evangelicals-hate-democrats/

-Jim

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Jon Gleason | October 5, 2012 at 10:21 pm

Jim, if there were an iota of difference between the two parties on divorce, you might have a case. Since there isn’t, it is entirely understandable for a Christian to look at the places where there are differences and decide to vote accordingly. It is inappropriate to speak / write with disdain for those who make such a decision as if they are merely hypocrites, or stupid, or mindless brainwashed drones.

To quote an online friend of mine, someone you know pretty well, “Go about it God’s way, in love, in humility, and in the power of the spirit.”

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fleebabylon | October 6, 2012 at 6:34 pm

Jon- I used to be a brain washed drone… God bless

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BelieveInHim | October 7, 2012 at 3:00 pm

While I understand what you are saying about Moronism to cast no vote or vote for Obama because he “says he is a christian” makes no sense either. I pray for the leaders of our nation regardless of their political party or their stated “faith” because that is what I am required to do by scripture as a christian. I also believe that my God is big enough and mighty enough that he can use any tool to accomplish and complete His plans. I do not see it as my christian duty to abstain from voting and I do not see it as my christian duty to return the man to office who’s party has adopted a “Roman 1” platform. I will continue to pray and will be voting for Mr. Romney because his “religion” is not what does or does not qualify him to be President.

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Stephanie | October 7, 2012 at 5:30 pm

I will be as bold to state: “a vote for Mitt Romney is to sin against God”. Please read the Mitt Romney Report. For those who have ears to hear, let them hear. http://massresistance.org/romney/

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D.Toney | October 8, 2012 at 2:19 pm

You people just don’t get it! My goodness, We are not voting on the pastor of a church. You can’t even see past your own legalism . . you’ve let it become this huge wall with no windows. Let me put it as plainly as I can. You vote for O, you vote for abortion, more government control, gays and lesbians, less military (while the rest of the world is increasing), hate of Israel, and a debt that will put this country under. That is just the tip of the iceberg. AND . . . if you don’t vote at all, you will in essence vote for the same stuff. WAKE UP!

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fleebabylon | October 8, 2012 at 3:44 pm

“You vote for O, you vote for abortion, more government control, gays and lesbians, less military (while the rest of the world is increasing), hate of Israel, and a debt that will put this country under. That is just the tip of the iceberg. AND . . . if you don’t vote at all, you will in essence vote for the same stuff. WAKE UP!”

You vote for Romeny and you vote for war, killing arabs, the military industrial complex, and exploiting wage earners.. wake up my foot. -Jim

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Brad | October 8, 2012 at 4:51 pm

D Toney is right……you people are bound up in a dogmatic irrational approach to the whole matter. The role of government, as envisioned by the founders, is to protect it’s citizens(including the unborn). This includes things like private property, freedom to worship, etc.. So long as those in authority carry out this limited role and allow me to worship my God I have no problem voting for them regardless of their personal beliefs. Some of you have a distorted, reconstructionist type view of government…….like it is the role of government to proselytize the world. This was not the intended purpose of the founders. Proselytizing the world is the role of the church. So what DOES a candidate have to believe in order to receive your vote? Would you people vote for the papist Santorum? Would you people vote for our third president(Jefferson) who was a deist? I hold very dearly the truths of the reformed faith, but sometimes I gag when reformed folks get cute with their intellectual, narrow approach. I think a biblical argument could be made that it is wrong NOT to vote and carry out our civic duty.

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Jon Gleason | October 9, 2012 at 10:36 am

Jim, I’m a soul-washed drone. 🙂

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fleebabylon | October 10, 2012 at 11:10 am

There is no Pro-life candidate when both candidates are pro-war…

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fleebabylon | October 11, 2012 at 2:53 pm

“So what DOES a candidate have to believe in order to receive your vote? ”

That it is wrong to exploit wage earners and to murder arabs to feed the military industrial complex. Next question…

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Jon Gleason | October 11, 2012 at 10:50 pm

” ….to feed the military industrial complex.”

Unproven attribution of motives, directly violating the Biblical principles of speech which do apply to blogging.

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Vicky Jenkins | October 21, 2012 at 1:27 pm

Obama thinks abortion is ok uh…ANYTIME….Romney says a baby is a baby….Life begins at conception..EXCEPT in the case of rape, incest, or medical issues…REALLY MR.ROMNEY??? LIVE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION….PERIOD, rape, incest, and medical isssues don’t make that BABY any less of a BABY…..The CONSTITUTION PARTY will get my vote AT LEAST they BELIEVE IN THE SANCTITY OF HUMAN LIFE!!! There is no flip flopping with them they go by the CONSTITUTION of The United STATES!!

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Ben Blue | October 26, 2012 at 2:03 pm

After reading a few of these comments I just came to a sort of realization. I am 20 and this is my first chance to vote and I really don’t want to vote for either. At one point I realized a vote for Obama will possibly kill more unborn babies and I was in distress and decided if I vote for Romney it would be because he stands more for Pro life but in reality both of them have flawed views of things. I have now come to the conclusion that as Christians in America I don’t think we should vote for either. I don’t think we should help elect a mormon or a whatever Obama is into the office of president. I think we should stand and say “no, these candidates are not acceptable.” We should campaign against them in our walk with Christ. Probably not actually protesting but in peaceful ways make it known that as Christians we don’t think it right to vote for a candidate that is not fit from a biblical perspective to be our leader. I think we can send a message that we will not submit to the Republican party, we won’t submit to the lesser of two evils. I think we should patiently show that this is not right. Hey maybe this stance would encourage and raise up a true born again beleiver to run and maybe not in our lifetime, but in the future, standing against this will provide us with a leader who truly is fit for duty. I think having a lesser of two evils candidate for the rest of the USA’s lifetime is far worse then waiting patiently for God to raise up a candidate we can respect. I think that for the kingdom’s sake, for the brothers and sisters in Christ in the future we can say no peacefully so that maybe, through prayer and perhaps fasting, that they will get a president who follows God. I really have faith that this can happen. I am just not into saying that Mormonism is good enough for me to vote for and that whatever Obama is is so bad that I have to choose what is evil. If we were given the option to sin in life by actively sinning or to sin by turning a blind eye to the evil I think it would be better that we suffered instead. I think the Christians in America may need some suffering under bad leaders to see that we can’t stand for this anymore. I think this is a very optimistic view but God tells us we can have faith. I’m not saying a vote for Obama is sin and a vote for Romney is turning a blind eye but I am saying that a vote for an evil candidate could be a sin and a vote with a blind eye turned could be a sin. It is anyone’s opinion as to whether this analogy works but that isn’t the point for it to be perfect. Please let us not vote for Romney simple because he has some better values than Obama. We don’t need a good president in order for Christianity and goodness to thrive in this country or for evil to end. We need the gospel to spread and we need to not accept either of these men…in my humble opinion 🙂 God bless you all

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Glenn E. Chatfield | October 26, 2012 at 2:28 pm

Ben, et al.

First, let me point out that in the N.T. times, and for many centuries afterwards, Christians were ruled by dictatorships (including royalty) where they had absolutely no say in how they were governed. You cannot equate that with the USA where we, the people, are ostensibly the government, and we do indeed have something to say about how we are governed. There is no biblical proscription against Christians exercising their civic duties in that situation. Even with the situation at the time, Paul appealed to his Roman citizenship for his rights under that citizenship.

If then, as the actual government of this nation, we have a tyrant in the office of President who violates the Constitution on an almost daily basis, continues in many treasonous acts (most recently the whole Libyan gun-running deal and coverup while still supplying this nation’s enemies with weapons which are used against us), institutes as law the recognition of same-sex fake marriage, protects and promotes abortion, impoverishes the populace by joblessness and increased onerous taxation, promotes Islam as a faith to support and defend, etc, while essentially throwing Israel under the bus — is it not our duty as citizens of this nation to do our best to get rid of him and put another person in charge?

God has worked for thousands of years with nations whose leaders were ungodly. I think He knows how to work with this nation with a Mormon president. After all, how many previous presidents were true believers? Does it really matter that Romney is LDS as a president any more than it mattered if Kennedy as a Romanist was a president? Cannot God use an unbeliever to bring about better government?

In this country it is a foregone conclusion that there are only two parties who make it to the presidential office – Republican and Democrat. History has shown that a vote for any other party – or no vote at all – usually helps the incumbent. God has left us with that option for almost a century.

The point is that we are voting for a party, not a person. The Republican party has nothing in their platform which, to my knowledge (as limited as it is), violates God’s laws, while virtually all of the platform of the Democratic party does. I will always vote Republican because it is unconscionable for a Christian to vote for any Democrat based on their platform, and no other party is viable.

I trust God with the results, but just like in bringing the gospel to people, He uses us to do His work. And if we have Obama again, it will be God’s judgment on us – giving us what we as a nation deserve.

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dalcowboiz | October 26, 2012 at 8:03 pm

I have to say I’m glad you responded and thought that out very well. I haven’t thought about it a ton yet. I definitely realize God works through bad rules all of the time and I definitely think it is fine to vote. I really didn’t know a whole lot about Obama and bringing that to my attention makes me realize how serious this is. I truly think that having him in office is definitely worse for anyone than Romney now. Especially considering Islam is a much bigger religion and if he is going to support it then I am sure many more will be trapped in it’s horrible ways. I supposed out of all of the religions out there now Islam can be the scariest. So thank you for changing my mind! I still hold that it could be good not to vote as a whole but I think that if Christians are voting it is best if we can vote with the same heart. I suppose motives for voting are what make it right and wrong and you clearly have the best of reasons to vote for Romney. I really don’t think I would have a clear conscience if I decided not to vote now. I can’t stand to see Islam supported, LDS just doesn’t do as much to hurt that church as Islam does in my book and anyones book for that matter. Your points are much better than anything I said 🙂 Thanks for helping me see this that way

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meanlittleboy2 | October 26, 2012 at 9:01 pm

Reblogged this on meanlittleboy2 and commented:
Hardest decision I have ever had as a voter,,,I voted, but not for either Obama or Romney,,cheers mlb

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Truth | October 27, 2012 at 10:30 am

Ben Blue–I agree with you. Hold firm and fully trust in the LORD. We should remain faithful to God and his kingdom.

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Mektf | October 30, 2012 at 8:39 am

Sorry Glen, but as a Republican, you fail to acknowledge the lying that seems to be rampant on that side. Rush Limbaugh makes statements that come from the abundance of his heart, and no, it is not ‘entertainment.’ He’s been married and divorced 4 times. Family values? Colin Powell was ‘blamed’ for Iraq, by Senator McCain. Really? There were lies about the unranium, and a CIA operative was outed by your party, her life and family was put in harms way. Economic terrorism from de-regulated wall street bankers destroyed the global housing market. Mitt Romney is a Mormon, and they enslave women and children in that cult. Have you ever been to Salt Lake City? Go visit it. You, would be deemed ‘unworthy’ to enter their temple, unless you are a Mormon. Question for you? Was Jesus a Mormon? NO. Mormonism is no less dangerous than Islam. Just so that you get in tune with the signs of the times, read ‘The Islamic Anti-Christ’, by Joel Richardson. And take a listen to the Pope’s Encyclical from November 2009, where he calls for the world to be ruled my one governing ‘Authority, and he calls for the replacement of the US dollar as the worlds currency, to be replaced by a new currency.’ Look it up. At best, we can be like Jonah, and preach the gospel of repentance, eventually God still slammed Ninevah. The republicans are not faultless as you seem to dictate and there is no lesser evil between the parties. Moloch or Baal? Where’s Elijah? Also, Jezebel on the heels. Rejoice. The Lord said that these days would come. Where’s faith? In man or God. Daniel said that God rules in the Kingdoms of Men, and gives it to whom HE wills, even the basest fo men. Abortion and Roe vs Wade came on the watch of a Republican, Richard Nixon. Many Republicans have held office since 1973, and no one has been able to repeal that wretched decision. Obama has endorsed unbiblical marriage, which is an abomination. The Koch Brothers have unleashed poisons into communities that cause multiple cancers to the residents. The church is poor, blind, misrable, wretched and naked, and says it has need of nothing…Jesus says the opposite. Moloch or Baal? Israel chose both, yet God always has a remnant. Look up…our redemption draws near. Either way, honor the King…pray for the powers that have been ordained of God…judgement starts with the house of God, thats you and me….selah

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Napoleon horton | October 31, 2012 at 9:18 am

Bishop Mitt Romney has a Mormon agenda which is to lie to you like his spiritual father, Satan. He is merely interested in power, doesn’t have true a love this country, that is why he avoided paying taxes by sending the money he made in this country to the Cayman Islands and Swiss banks, and scared to show his tax returns. I believe God is testing the church in America, and the church is failing. That is, will His people follow God’s ways or the Devil’s. To the church He says: seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added. (Matt. 6:33). God never encourages Christians to seek the ways of an habitual liar like the Devil, and his spritual son Bishop Mitt Romney. Neither one has any shame in their game about “lying.” President Obama is a professing Chirsitian even though I don’t believe most white Christians believe so. How many are praying for him, and let God do His job and determine if he is a true Christian. Many of you would have thought the self-righteous Pharisees were true Christians because of their outward appearances, and I believe they would have been against abortions and gay marriages. But Jesus who could see the heart, saw them as snakes, vipers and hypocrittes. Lot, the nephew of Abraham, outward appearance might not look righteous, but God called him righteous Lot.. Let God be God and you be a sinner saved by grace. I could never deny my Savior and support a Mormon, who believes Jesus was the brother of Satan. NOWAY!!!

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Jon Gleason | October 31, 2012 at 12:52 pm

@Napoleon Horton, the self-righteous Pharisees taught a false doctrine of salvation, and no one here would have thought they were true Christians any more than anyone thinks Romney is.

Professing “Christians” like Obama are as spiritually dangerous as Mormons, in fact, more so. Almost everyone knows there is a difference between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity. But a lot of people don’t know that about Obama’s filthy doctrines, his evil twisting of Scripture when he references it, and his support for evil perversion. I don’t know what is in his heart, but I know what he advocates, and it is evil. You sound as if you think people should vote for the man because he is a prefessing Christian.

Voting for a man is roughly akin to hiring someone to do a job for you, or buying goods or services from him. It’s not really much more than that. We’re not appointing a king, the people are choosing who they are going to hire for four years to do a task. Don’t make it more than it is. It certainly isn’t endorsing everything he believes.

Obama was hired for four years. He’s used the job he was given as an opportunity to push corruption, sow division, and to try to build his own power. He ought to be fired for it.

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Gail | November 5, 2012 at 11:23 am

Lucifer was thrown out of heaven for wanting to be equal to God. Mormons believe that the ‘cream of the crop Mormons’ will become a God and rule their own universe. I wonder if God considers that as THE BIGGEST SIN? People within islam do not think they will be equal to their god or to become a god. Mormonism seems worse than islam. A mormon president could sway a lot of non-Christians into becoming mormons. He could also sway wishy-washy Christians. What if we voted with a write-in vote that could send a message. It wouldn’t hurt my conscience, even though it SEEMS like a no-vote. It would be a FAITH vote that i am trying to convey to God that i don’t want to vote for either of the evils. I could vote republican, as a party, but not vote for a demo. or repub. president. After the election, I’ll pray for whoever gets in office. I’ll pray that we Christians can stay true to Jesus Christ no matter what comes about. God, please have mercy on us. We’re going to need it no matter who gets into office.

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dalcowboiz | November 5, 2012 at 12:04 pm

I think it is funny people think Obama is more dangerous than Romney. To me it shows that Satan has already tricked us all. They both serve Satan’s purposes don’t they? Satan can do as he wants through either one can’t he? But we should pray for our leaders that God’s will would be done in them despite their beliefs. We shouldn’t worry about who it is because the power of prayer can defeat Satan. Truth reveals that neither is less dangerous in my opinion. I consider it dangerous that so many are easily willing to support Romney to get Obama out of office. We should certainly not be eager. Has Satan already tricked our hearts? Let us not worry about who the president is. We are in the kingdom of God okay? So we follow the King of the kingdom alone. We don’t worry about who is president. We pray for them. We can vote and it is certainly fine to vote. But to consider one a lesser evil is to give Satan the ground to trick us into really believing that Mormonism is less dangerous. We see Romney as more of a brother to us than Obama since he is “closer” to Christianity I suppose. it is like how we feel about animals. We would be more sad if a horse or a dog or an ape were being tested in labs than rats and mice becasue those animals are more like us than rats. We feel more connected to them. Do not feel more connected to Romney because he is Mormon and does not seem to have as scary of beliefs as Obama does. We cannot know what dangers lurk through either. We should pray for either and consider one not worse than the other since God has set up all the rulers on this earth. Let’s stop bringing our personal feelings into politics and trust in our God. To me Rush Limbaugh is scarier than anything I see on the democrat side, course I never hear anything from their side. But my parents love Rush and consider themselves Christians. I think since many consider Republican the Christian party we should be more discerning about everything to do with the Republicans. It is more clear to us that the Democrats are not good but it is so hard for us to see that the Republicans are no better. I mean, after listening to Rush some I feel sort of sick that my parents eat that up. It seems they automatically side with anything he says. If a Christian so easily sides with someone isn’t it easier for Satan to work through that person? Of course it is! It is an open door. It is not something that Christian has given over to the Lord Jesus because if it was they would be discerning. Let us not leave an open door to Romney in our hearts. Satan can do what he wants in either if we let him. Let’s give Satan no ground in this spiritual battle. Let us pray for our leaders as often as possible and pray that Satan’s plans fail.

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Jon Gleason | November 5, 2012 at 2:39 pm

Hello, dalcowboiz. I guess you are talking to me since I said Obama is more spiritually dangerous than a Mormon. It’s clear from what you said that my point wasn’t clear. It isn’t because Romney / Mormonism is “closer” to Christianity. That isn’t it at all.

It is because most people know Romney’s Mormonism isn’t really Christianity. It’s a bizarro belief system that has bounced all over the place with race restrictions, polygamy, special underwear, etc. Few people think it is Biblical Christianity.

Obama’s version of Christianity is more dangerous because it looks, to the lost and the untaught, a lot closer to Christianity. Those who teach it can convince many that it is real Christianity. Thus, it is more dangerous than Romney’s wacko beliefs. The most dangerous wolf is the one that looks most like a sheep.

If I believed the role of government was to bring in righteousness, I wouldn’t vote for either, obviously. But the message of righteousness is ours to proclaim and the Spirit’s to work in hearts, not the government’s.

The Biblical role of government is to restrain evil, not permit and encourage it. I believe Romney will permit and encourage less evil, and restrain more of it, than Obama has and will if reelected. Any election choice will be an imperfect one, but that’s not a theological problem for me. Romans 13 was talking about imperfect rulers, too. If I get to have any say in who the ruler will be, and there are only two real choices who could be the ruler, I’ll choose the one which is going to do the most to restrain evil and the least to encourage evil. In this respect, I believe there is a substantive difference between the two, though both are deeply flawed in it (which is hardly surprising, considering they are both lost sinners).

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fleebabylon | November 7, 2012 at 5:04 pm

How did going down to Egypt for help (looking to a Mormon led Republican Party to bring about your ‘moral’ agenda) work out? Hope everyone realizes that the US is not OT Israel and is no more or less of a Christian nation than Iran or Iraq is (since such a thing doesn’t exist). Don’t fret – turn off the satanic Christian right propaganda and get back to being a pilgrim representative of your TRUE kingdom and your TRUE king that you are blessed to serve. You will never have to worry about your guy losing another election that way! Jesus still reigns and He is not a republican or democrat.

Isaiah 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt! Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.

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fleebabylon | November 8, 2012 at 4:13 am

Isaiah 36:6 Lo, thou trustest in the staff of this broken reed, on Egypt; whereon if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all that trust in him.

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Jon Gleason | November 8, 2012 at 6:03 am

Hi, Jim. If America isn’t Israel (and it obviously isn’t), then why use the analogy of going down to Egypt for help? 🙂 But you are right that if anyone was trusting Romney or a political party to build morality, that would be very foolish indeed.

Too bad a nation has chosen to endorse the wickedness that they have. If it means Christians become more aware that their citizenship is in Heaven, that they are to set their affections above, that is obviously a good thing. It reveals how strongly evil has taken root in the nation. It is not the revealing of that evil, but the fact that it has grown so strong, that is the tragedy.

The “Christian nation” fallacy won’t die easily, but perhaps this election will help some Christians to learn that lesson.

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