January 9, 2012 by Pilgrim

Atheist hypocrisy (Part 1)

I often hear the lament from anti-theists about Christian hypocrisy as the impetus behind their rejection of God, but rarely is atheist hypocrisy ever mentioned. So let’s look at two glaring hypocrisies of atheism, part one today, and part two coming soon.

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I recall a time a few years ago when I posted a gospel tract on the community bulletin board of a local coffee shop.

Shortly thereafter, as I sat sipping my hot beverage, a woman in her thirties entered the shop and made her way over to the bulletin board. Upon seeing the tract, she quickly removed it and promptly found a table where she sat and thumbed through the little booklet. Her behavior led me to speculate that she was familiar with what she held in her hands, and I watched from a distance.

Then this woman took out a pen and began to write on the tract (both the front and rear covers). This greatly piqued my interest of course, and I continued to observe.

A short while later another woman entered the establishment and approached the table where the first woman sat. The second woman greeted the first and the first woman gleefully showed the second woman the cover of the tract. The second woman gave a smirk while the first had a grin ear to ear. She then promptly returned the tract to the bulletin board.

My party and I left at the same time as the two women did but my curiosity got the best of me so I returned to the bulletin board inside the business and retrieved the tract. And there I read what the woman in all her giddy-like-a-school-girl excitement had written on the tract.

On the front:

“There is no God!”

On the back:

“Shame on God!”

There you have it . . . classic anti-theist hypocrisy: “Shame on the very thing I believe doesn’t exist.”

How can someone say on one hand, “There is no God!” then on the other hand say, “Shame on God!”? That is either blatant hypocrisy or a mild case of schizophrenia.

You can’t claim that someone or something doesn’t exist, then offer an opinion on that someone or something. Let me offer an example.

If I said that the Loch Ness Monster does not exist, but then warned you that you should be careful while swimming in Loch Ness because the Monster might get you, would you not be justified in questioning the truthfulness of my original claim that Nessie doesn’t exist?

So I came to the realization that most self-proclaimed atheists aren’t atheists because they disbelieve the existence of God, but it’s simply because they hate Him. They don’t want to be limited or prohibited in their lifestyle choices, nor be confronted with their sin, so they self-inflict a seared conscience upon themselves.

I would prefer if these professing atheists would be upfront and honest about their beliefs and come to terms with the fact that they simply hate God and His laws, instead of hiding behind a pretentious facade of pseudo-intellectualism in their declaration that the very thing they hate does not exist.

A little honesty and candor is all I’m seeking. Is that too much to ask for?

96 thoughts on “Atheist hypocrisy (Part 1)”

mickey Merrie | January 9, 2012 at 9:30 am

That is excellent, brother! Thanks for the post!
Thankfully Athiests don’t post tracts of their own, but then again why would they care to?

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Pete | January 9, 2012 at 11:51 am

On the contrary – I think most theists do not actually know or do not understand what they believe in.

I’ve read / seen / participated in many activities that demonstrate that when it comes down to it – people believe because of fear or because they are unable to think critically. Of course I’m talking about the majority – not all.

Most atheists I’ve encountered are atheists because they have the ability to think critically, and can understand that you should not believe something unless there is evidence for it.

Otherwise we’d all be members of the flat-earth society, or we’d think Elvis is still alive.

Regards,
Pete

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Jon J. Cardwell | January 9, 2012 at 2:21 pm

Reblogged this on Justification by Grace and commented:
Pilgrim at “Defending Contending” shares something witnessed a few years ago of an anti-theist with a gospel tract. On the one hand they say God doesn’t exist; yet, at the same time they hate God.

This very real anecdote has a precedent in the very real truth of scripture. They are without excuse (Rom 1.20). They became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened (Rom 1.21). Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools (Rom 1.22). And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient (Rom 1.28), being filled with all unrighteousness (Rom 1.29), haters of God (Rom 1.30).

Check out the entire article.

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Scott | January 9, 2012 at 2:44 pm

Excellent article.
Pete, I’m not sure I’ve met the kind of folks you’re talking about. My theist brethren are a highly rational lot. In fact, I’ve seen/read/witnessed far more evidence for God’s existence than, say, for your existence. I could just as easily say you don’t exist. The only evidence I have is this one blog response. It’s a really bad argument, friend. God’s majesty is all around you, the evidence is plain for anyone to see, unless they have, as you say, a fear NOT to believe. I pray God opens your eyes to His reality.

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Todd | January 9, 2012 at 2:44 pm

Excellent post.
My daughter is a self proclaimed atheist. She does not have the ability to think critically. If she did she would recognize that her position is potentially more fragile than a believer. If you should not believe something unless there is evidence of it, then rules out most theories that require historical validation. The Big Bang for example and evolution for another. Most atheists are atheists, not because they understand the relationship of evidence and belief but mostly because they are anti-theists. If the definition of thinking critically was believing in things which only have evidence we would have to rule out any experiential or deductive evidence and touch the stove each time to come to believe it’s hot. It’s a work of God anyway. Coming to Faith is a supernatural experience. You must be born again. It is outside of the natural realm. Feel free to continue to disbelieve.

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brother Michael | January 9, 2012 at 3:55 pm

The other amazing point to consider is that throughout history and up and until our modern day all cultures in every land have had a belief in a supreme being and/or supreme beings as creators/sustainers of the world in which we live. This including the most technically advanced, critically thinking and powerful nations that the world has ever known. All of them have belived in some form of theism.

My point here is not to debate the existance of the God of the Bible, which I of course subscribe to, but just to glaring fact that the anti-theist is an abberation and runs counter to the vast majority of people that have ever lived. They being a mere blip on the radar of history that barely registers on the screen.

So instead of Christians being the ignorant ones who lack critical thinking, it is in fact the anti-theist who falls squarely in that camp. Unless of course their hubris leads them to believe that they are at the pinnacle of the evolutionary continuum and are charged with the elimination of this random mutation that causes men to believe in God.

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Pete | January 10, 2012 at 1:34 pm

From some of the comments it’s clear that the authors and I have a different understanding of what evidence is.

@Todd:
The universe is expanding, that is evidence of the Big Bang theory. The fossil record, genetics, micro-evolution, and much more are all examples of evidence for the theory of Evolution.

You may not agree with some / all of these but none the less they are examples of evidence (consistent, repeatable, independently verifiable experiments).

@Scott:
Contrary to what this article suggests – I realise that it is nonsensical to say that I feel any emotion toward something that I do not believe in. And so, I do not fear God, because I do not believe in God.

What is this evidence you say is plain for anyone to see? Is it something like “life”, “love”, “morality”, or anything else easily explainable by evolution.

@brother Michael:
I understand your point, but even if it were true that every culture had believers, it doesn’t mean that everyone believed. Also – even if 100% of people believe something that doesn’t make it true.

I agree atheists are a minority, but so were the people that disbelieved in a flat earth, until evidence showed that it really was round. The numbers of atheists are growing by the way. Did you know that some countries have a percentage of people as small as 16% that believe in a God? (Estonia – data from a Eurostat poll in 2005).

Please don’t take offence when I say, I think and hope that as we become more educated as a race, and further our technology, modern religion will find its rightful place together with the other myths and legends.

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Clair | January 10, 2012 at 6:14 pm

@ Pete
The Big Bang Theory provides more evidence for God than not. Natural forces were created at the Big Bang – time, space and matter came into existence at that singular point. Something outside of nature had to exist before the Big Bang. Since the universe had a beginning, there had to have been a cause.
Also, the first law of thermodynamics theorizes that something cannot come from nothing (energy cannot be created by natural causes).

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Ky gal | January 10, 2012 at 7:53 pm

You can heal the sick and raise the dead
Turn the sky from a blue to a red
It doesn’t matter what people see
Some people refuse to believe

Words from an old song. Evidence or proof, if you like, is the presence of faith. Evidence could be presented but still can be disbelieved. The best an atheist can do is hedge bets.

“There’s probably not a God. Now go enjoy your life.” That’s from a banner at an atheist convention. That’s as good at it gets for atheists, right there. No mystery, no faith, no evidence.

No thanks. I will keep my God.

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Pete | January 11, 2012 at 12:23 am

@Clair:
If your God needs no beginning, why can’t the same logic be applied to the universe? A singularity containing all of the universe’s energy, stable and unmoving. Then for reasons unknown, it became unstable and began to expand, – the start of the universe we know today.

It is equally viable, as is infinite possibilities, if you say that something can be eternal.

@Ky gal:
“No thanks. I will keep my God.”
You may prefer to, but that doesn’t make God real.

Faith is similar to gullibility is it not? Believe something – just believe it, just believe because I said so.

Pete

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bigmike | January 11, 2012 at 2:43 am

Faith in a singularity…… you may prefer it but it dose not make it scientific fact….only theory. It takes substantialy more faith to belive in no god and endless theorys that change with the generations, than in a Creator.

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Ky gal | January 11, 2012 at 4:13 am

Not really. Everyone has faith. When you type an e-mail, you have faith in the computer. You have faith in the chair you are sitting on to hold you up. You have faith that your paycheck will arrive in the bank. So faith is part of the human condition.

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lyn | January 11, 2012 at 5:30 am

Faith to believe in God is not some human faculty, it is a gift. We believe in certain things, as ky gal stated, but no one can have faith in Christ unless he/she has been gifted with faith by God; this biblical truth is found in Ephesians 2:8-9. This is why the atheist does not believe, they are not able to unless God opens their understanding and gifts them with faith to grasp biblical truth.

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michael henry | January 11, 2012 at 7:55 am

@Todd
“..The universe is expanding, that is evidence of the Big Bang theory. The fossil record, genetics, micro-evolution, and much more are all examples of evidence for the theory of Evolution.”

Seriously? To begin with the key word to start is theory, and unproven at that. Micro-evolution only proves evolution within a species, it in no manner has ever been demonstrated that a species becomes another species, a hallmark of Darwinian ism. The Argument from Evolution being the fortress upon which attacks must be proven against it’s standing is a false one. It assumes that ex nihilo, evolution is true without having to prove anything. I would refuse to concede starting any debate on those grounds alone.

“..but none the less they are examples of evidence (consistent, repeatable, independently verifiable experiments).”

Really Sir? Without so much as a nod to the incredible gaps in fossil records, the fact that genetic arguments in favor of evolution are weaker than the philosophical ones (for example every time a “new” skeleton is “found” the human tree has to be redrawn), you stand on evidence that you don’t provide and as we have seen try to pass it off as the standard to beat.

The bible refutes evolution in it’s macro entirety, beginning with the 4th and 5th words of scripture: “..God said…” He created things by his word, instantly.

“..Please don’t take offence when I say, I think and hope that as we become more educated as a race, and further our technology, modern religion will find its rightful place together with the other myths and legends.”

So after giving no evidence for your groundless assertions, you beg piety and then insult people. I would bet my lunch that you would count yourself among the “more educated”, having already gone beyond “myths and legends”.

After examining your lack of consistent argumentation (I don’t fear God because I don’t believe in him, for example) and your lack of certainly in nearly every respect (“.. even if 100% of people believe something that doesn’t make it true.”) it is clear your “evidence” is lacking in total.

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Mickey Merrie | January 11, 2012 at 9:20 am

The real question for you Pete should be, “God, if you are real, then reveal yourself to me, please?” Further, “If you reveal yourself to me, Lord, I will bend my knee in reverence to You, Your Way, unconditionally! Repenting of my unbelief, and all my wicked ways, and from this point lay down my life, take up my cross and follow You as my Lord and Savior!!!…and for the rest of my earthly life commit to, not my will but Your Will be done!”
But, probably because you think this is ridiculous, you won’t pray even the first part of it!
It really is this simple; His conviction now…or His condemnation later!
It worked for me! Just saying…

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abidingthroughgrace | January 11, 2012 at 10:14 am

Pete, I think we have discussed this topic recently on another post…are you the same Pete?

I too was an atheist until I was in my early 20’s. I was a science kid, a science student, and studied science in college while getting my engineering degree. I was all about evolution, Carl Sagan, and believe religious people were weak and foolish. I was a critical thinker, trained as a critical thinker and still am a critical thinker to this day.

…one day it all changed…

sincerely,
-atg

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brother Michael | January 11, 2012 at 4:16 pm

Pete,
I do appreciate your kind reply. Yes – I most certainly agree that the majority of people believing something does not make it true. That was not my point but rather just to acknowledge that anciet peoples, those who actually were more advanced than we are in many areas, believed in a supreme being. So that such belief today is not foolish unless modern athests are the pinnacle for knowledge which is a very haughty thing to believe.

In terms of our “advancements” the older I get the more I see the double-edged sword of our “advancements.” That is, with so many technological improvements there have always been very negative repurcussions that often outweight the said benefits. For example, technology was touted as a means to give people more time with family, friends, etc. Yet it has done the exact opposite and instead of strengthening relationships and giving people more time, by in large it steals time like a thief and fractures relationships. So much so that many youth today are unable to even carry on a face-to-face conversation as all they can do is text in grunts using poor grammar.

Robotics are said to help in industry to take over menial tasks. Yet those “menial” tasks such as assembling cars, checking out people at the store, stocking warehouses and more were done by people and put food on the table for millions. Flesh and blood people where now these same millions are out of work or severely underpaid where these jobs will never come back. All due to “advancements” that only advance the companies that sell such technolgoies and those that employ them fleecing their customers and never passing on the “benefits” in terms of lower product costs.

The mondern food industry? It has stripped the soil of nutrients, pumped animals and us full of pesticides and antiobiotics, and given us chemicals and fillers that they say is food. Where the vast majority of our modern diseases and their growth such as found with cancer, diabetes and so much more are due in large part, and often principally, from our “advanced” diet. Where if we went back to simpler times and less “advanced” ways of farming, preparing food and eating it most of us would live better quality lives and longer ones too.

I could go on down the list where if you do some analysis you will see these things to be true.

My encouragement to you is to read the New Testament. Read the Gospel of John as a starter. What harm will it do to just read the Bible? Not commentaries or diatribes found on the web, just what is written in the Bible. Put some time in to read and think on what is being said. At the end of this exercise you may walk away and continue to believe it is bunk, where if that is so, then well and good, at least you did some due dilligence and considered it. Many of us have come from similar backgrounds as yourself as “atg” wrote; where all of us were unbelievers and haters of God at one point in our life. I certainly was and wanted nothing to do with Jesus but rather enjoyed my partying and debauchy. But that changed when I started to read and believe.

Kindly
brother Michael

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Clair | January 11, 2012 at 6:56 pm

Pete, to answer your question: the universe cannot have been eternal because it is made of natural materials. Natural materials had to have been created. Otherwise you’re saying the universe is supernatural which sounds quite a bit more far fetched than believing in a supernatural Intelligent Being, God, that actually guided the design of the universe.

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Pete | January 12, 2012 at 3:41 am

@bigmike:
It takes zero faith to believe not believe in something. It takes zero faith to believe in something with evidence, which is what theories are.

@Ky gal:
Actually no – I do not have faith that my chair will hold me up. The last time I sat on it it held me up, and the time before (evidence). I see chairs holding people up every day (evidence). It is a test that is consistent, repeatable, and independently verifiable).

@michael henry:
A theory – yes. Like the theory of gravity, or the theory of electromagnetism, or the dynamo theory. The theory that the earth is round, the theory that the earth rotates, the theory that the earth orbits the sun.

Theories, unlike faith, are based on evidence, and importantly, they are falsifiable (including the theory of evolution). Yet none of the criteria that would falsify it have been found.

There is an enormous amount of evidence for evolution. Try looking at it from an impartial perspective, use something like Wikipedia – that tries to be impartial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_for_evolution. I often watch debates because that way I can hear both points of view.

I have not intentionally insulted anyone. Saying “I don’t fear God because I don’t believe in him” is not being inconsistent. And I think I am neither more educated, nor more intelligent than anyone else contributing to this debate.

@abidingthroughgrace:
It is possible – I have been posting on the miraculous evolution of the giraffe as well.

@brother Michael:
You make some good points and I agree with most of them – but I think we should continue to advance ourselves – only try our utmost not to abuse the advancements we make.

Why the bible? Why not the Koran, Hindu Vedas, or any of the other numerous religious texts?

@Mickey Merrie:
Yes I am afraid I do think it is silly. Would you do the same for Zeus, Wotan, Allah, etc?

@Clair:
So what is God made of?

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Mickey Merrie | January 12, 2012 at 7:32 am

Well none of THEM answered my inquiries! You see, I too searched for evidences just as you do. Tell me, do you have evidence for what you believe happens to you after you die?…Or do you just have faith in your learned opinion as to your future?!?!

If I am wrong, what have I lost?…If you are wrong, what have you gained?

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Pete | January 12, 2012 at 9:35 am

@Mickey Merrie:
I have no idea what happens when a person dies – and I have heard no convincing reason to believe that something does happen, or that there is part of a person left to happen to.

If I am wrong about which God? If you are talking about the God portrayed in the Christian stories then depending on which sect you believe I will either be in hell or somewhere else not in heaven. Maybe then God will explain to me why in his infinite wisdom and all-powerfulness He chose to tell me his very important message in texts that had been copied and translated and copied and translated and hidden amongst many other equally believable texts.

What if you are wrong about Allah, Zeus, Wotan, Thor, or many more. You are an atheist to all of the other Gods, I just go 1 God further.

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DavidW | January 12, 2012 at 11:35 am

Pete,

It seems to me that if you are seriously and truly a critical thinker, then you would be as equally open to examining the possibility of the existence of a supernatural realm coexistent with the natural realm. But so far, the bulk of your appeal to “evidence” has been to the natural, and within the confines of what you consider to be valid “evidence”. Thus any appeal to “evidence” outside of your confines are summarily dismissed as irrelevant. Doesn’t seem very “critical” to me. Seems like a very convenient, and restrictive method of supporting/defining/acknowledging “truth” as you choose to perceive it.

If, on the other hand, I were a seeker of truth, I would want to examine all things rationally and unbiasedly. If I were to consider the possibility of a supernatural, I wouldn’t confine my research to the natural (though I would not dismiss natural evidences). If I were to consider the possibility of the existence of God, I would look at the validity of the of claims of such a God working within the natural realm, yet also existing supernaturally. I would seriously consider the testimony of those throughout human history who bear corroborating evidence of their encounter with the God of the Bible. I would seriously consider the nation Israel whose history is at least in part verifiable through historical records of contemporaneous non-Israeli nations, as a component lending credence to the Bible which gives more extensive detail on Israel’s origin and history (at least up to the time of the Grecian Empire, then again briefly in the New Testament). I would seriously consider that hundreds of prophesies, written over a range of hundreds of years, by most of those who never met, let alone never knew each other (by virtue of being non-contemporary, as well as disassociated in class and locality), yet were fulfilled as prophesied, as evidence entirely beyond the range of the natural (and thus supernatural). It would also give me serious pause to consider the validity of the source of said prophesies (the Bible) as being true and beyond the invention of man (and thus not in the category of religious myths). I would consider the existence of artifacts in museums worldwide, testifying to the validity of events and persons described in the Bible, as evidence of the validity of the Bible. Having been thus directed to the Bible by such evidence, I would examine it for what it says regarding Who God says He is, what His attributes are, how He has chosen to interact with man in history, and what He has to say about man.

Such evidences (and there are many more, but for brevity sake these are given as a sample) at least to me, leave all claims to the non-existence of the supernatural, and the non-existence of God, as insufficient and poorly researched conclusions based upon limited analysis.

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Pete | January 12, 2012 at 1:29 pm

@DavidW:
Everything within this universe has to obey the laws of this universe – saying otherwise is exactly equivalent to saying a brick is not a brick.

So why would we ever dismiss the laws of the universe? Only to explain something outside of it. We have no way of determining whether anything is or could exist outside of the universe. It’s like trying to add a 3rd option to a dichotomy.

How could one possibly go about seeking the truth by considering such things? Faith is not a pathway to truth.

I am open minded to the idea of something outside of this universe not being governed by any of the laws of this universe, and yes that means I am open to the possibility of a God. But that something could equally be an infinite number of possibilities, including nothing at all. I would say the God that you imagine is as equally likely as X (replace X with anything).

Please can you give your best example of one of the fulfilled prophecies you talk of?

Harry Potter may mention a building that actually exists, so should the people of the future think of the Harry Potter book as truth?

Kind regards,
Pete

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Mickey Merrie | January 12, 2012 at 1:37 pm

One other consideration for you Pete, is this question. Why are there countless stories of folks who once believed as you, now believing as me? By the way, I don’t ascribe to a sect, denomination or group, other then those who are called by the Lord of all by His Holy Spirit to His Son, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I do not Pete, see the exodus from my position to yours…particularly in “fox holes” and other situations that bring folks to the end of themselves. You are left on the outside by choice, and that choice, perhaps you are unaware of this, but it wasn’t/isn’t yours as it was made for you, by Him. You now are left with the absolute Truth that you and your self rightiousness do NOT measure up to His Standard, and you are already under judgement. Should His current choice for your life change, please let me/us know. But know this, there is not a thing you can do about it. I care enough to tell you the truth, and not blow religious smoke at you. Want further truth? Many folks who have done many good but self rightous dead works in His Name are in your same hopeless situation! They don’t believe so, but they too will hear, “depart from Me, I never knew you!”
Good luck with the rest of your choices as you build your best life now, and I hope you live a good long life in the here and now. But for you that’s all there is…same for all your loved ones who are enlightened like you. Thankfully “decieved” men lead of my God have paved the way for you to enjoy what is left of the good life, thanks to a great awakeing hundreds of years ago. It really wasn’t until recently that folks who believe like you, and the self rightious religious dead works folks turned our world back toward the next dark age. I wish you well in your search for the evidence you choose to believe.

One last couple of questions for you, Pete, from me anyways… Why are you here and what is your purpose for being here?
No, not here on earth, just here at this blog? Is there something bothering you that someone here might be able to help you with?

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brother Michael | January 12, 2012 at 3:21 pm

Pete,
Why the Bible? Because this is a Christian site and I am a believer in Jesus. I thought that would be obvious especially since you have been speaking so highly of the necessity of critical thinking. If you want to learn about the Koran or other holy books there are myriad sites that you can go to. Put some legs to your statements and do some homework where I encourage you to compare the Bible to the Koran and other books of other faiths. Study it out – do some critical thinking and go to the source.

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Pete | January 12, 2012 at 3:44 pm

“Why are there countless stories of folks who once believed as you, now believing as me?”
Good question – and it could be reversed. I don’t know the answer. Maybe comfort, fear, wishful thinking, or a tendency to blindly believe people who are skilled rhetorically? Probably a combination of these.

So if I’ve got this right, God created me, and has judged me. He deems me unworthy and therefore condemns me to eternity without Him? Really? Is that eternity without Him just some place or is it burning in Hell?

I am here because I enjoy hearing other peoples point of view, even if I don’t agree with it. I primarily came to the site because I was searching for information on the evolution of the giraffe – and read the article on the miraculous evolution of the giraffe.

May I ask why you believe? And do you think if you were born in Pakistan you would be a Muslim, or India a Hindu?

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Ky gal | January 12, 2012 at 3:49 pm

I’m not good with the big words and the lengthy arguments. I admire those who can do so. I only know that it would make no sense for me to look around God’s creation, shrug my shoulders and say, “No one made this. It just all came together. ”

I will leave the scientific arguments to those better suited for it than me. I am not sure that having a discussion on a thread is profitable, without relationship. I would submit that you have all the evidence you need, you just don’t want to believe in God. No one can make you believe in something that you don’t wish to, no matter how much evidence is thrown your way.

I wish you well on your journey.

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Pete | January 12, 2012 at 3:51 pm

@brother Michael:
You’ve clearly misunderstood my question.

“Why the bible? Why not the Koran, Hindu Vedas, or any of the other numerous religious texts?”

So – I am asking WHY you have chosen the Bible OVER some other religious text.

“Because this is a Christian site and I am a believer in Jesus.” is NOT a valid answer – you are just re-stating WHAT you believe and not WHY that particular thing OVER another.

Sorry for the caps but I felt I needed to emphasise to make things clearer this time around.

@Ky gal:
No-one is saying “It just all came together” – that is not what evolution teaches us. Here’s a snippet from Wikipedia that explains what evolution is (the numbers are cited references of reliable sources):

“We know that living things have changed over time, because we can see their remains in the rocks. These remains are called ‘fossils’. So we know that the animals and plants of today are different from those of long ago. And the further we go back, the more different the fossils are.[4] How has this come about? Evolution has taken place. That evolution has taken place is a fact, because it is overwhelmingly supported by many lines of evidence.[5][6][7]”

Okay thank you for you comments – I wish you well.

Kind regards,
Pete

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DavidW | January 13, 2012 at 3:18 pm

Pete,

You’ve misunderstood some of what I’ve said. I never said we are to dismiss the laws of the universe to explain something outside of it. On the contrary, what I am saying is that we cannot appeal strictly to natural laws to verify, or discredit, that which is supernatural. Nor did I say that faith is a pathway to truth. We do not start by what we choose to believe, then seek ways to prove its validity. It seems you continue to restrict your focus upon the natural as your criteria to discredit the supernatural. Apples to oranges my friend.

“I am open minded to the idea of something outside of this universe not being governed by any of the laws of this universe, and yes that means I am open to the possibility of a God. ..“

I was glad to hear that you are at least open to considering the possibility of God. At least that’s a start in the right direction, and broadening your scope of investigation.

Since you asked for an example of fulfilled prophesy, consider the prophesies of the man Daniel, an Israelite taken captive to Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon around 605 – 587 B.C. (depending on the historian). Daniel was given supernatural information from the Lord God which he recorded (in the Bible book of Daniel), some of which scholars have determined to identify Alexander the Great, as well as how Alexander’s kingdom was to be divided after his death (some 250 years prior to the fact):

“And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.” (Daniel 8:2-8)

To make it absolutely clear who the prophesy was about, it is spelled out:

“And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. “(Daniel 8:15-22)

Of course it is a matter of historical record that Alexander the Great conquered the Medio-Persian Empire and that his kingdom was divided between his 4 generals.

And there are many other prophesies in the Bible which have been fulfilled. Such are multiple testimonies to an Intelligence outside of the natural realm, and which direct us to a book (the Bible) which contains those testimonies of that Intelligent Source, which describes Him as the Living God, Creator of all.

I truly hope you take serious consideration to this.

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Pete | January 13, 2012 at 5:04 pm

If we both were to witness something that appeared supernatural, I would assume it to be natural unless proven otherwise, and that we simply did not understand it. Would you assume it to be supernatural until proven otherwise?

I do take serious consideration to it. And my consideration so far has revealed that I’ve no way to determine whether the prophecy was modified (or even written) after the fulfilling events had already occurred. Unless we can accurately date it – and we can’t because original texts no longer exist.

From my research it appears that the Aramaic portion of Daniel contains clear differences in language to that of the Qumran Hebrew used in the Persian times.

On that alone I would neither believe nor disbelieve, but there are failed prophecies in the Bible, lending doubt to the credibility of the fulfilled ones.

In fact, this example of a “prophecy” is fraught with controversy.

Bearing all of this in mind I do not believe this account of Daniel.

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brotehr Michael | January 13, 2012 at 6:44 pm

Pete,
I follow your question now. Simply stated because I have come to believe the writings of the Scriptures and testimony to Jesus as Messiah and the gospel as the means of salvation. I believe the words that are written and accept the eyewitness testimony recorded by the men who penned these books nearly 2000 years ago. Believe they were truthful in what they recorded and accepting their testimony and the preservation of these accounts. Something people do every day in matters not related to faith such as believing in historical men and women where scant fragments exist of their lives, but struggle with when it comes to Jesus. Two verses that summarize my belief as well as those of saints 2000 years and ever since are as follows.

“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when you received the word of God which you heard of us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually works also in you that believe.”

“For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.”

There are many other things I could write to speaking to how I was delivered out of a life in bondage to sin (and honestly loving it) to a new life, with a new heart. Yet I recognize per your comments above that at least right now you will not receive the subjective any more than the objective so I will not seek to dialog and debate these matters further. I believe you have more than enough to chew on, or to discount outright as the posters above have been very gracious in their responses and sacrificial of their time.

Best regards
Michael

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Pete | January 14, 2012 at 2:39 am

@brother Michael:
I think had you not read the Bible but the Koran, Hindu Vedas, or Dhammapada and been encouraged by other Muslims, Hindus, or Buddhists then you would follow the respective religion and not Christianity. So you believe not because it is the truth but because of convenience/geography/etc.

Okay thank you for your time.

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Mickey Merrie | January 14, 2012 at 7:00 am

You must have quite the dull life Pete, to spend so much time here all of a sudden. Laid off? Why don’t you go read all the religious books on earth after reading all the science, geograpy, history, biology, antropology ad noisum, and then report back on your findings…Till you do, I must consider you a mere rookie when it comes to all knowlege. You have no faith in anything till you can see it for yourself. well prove to us all here thatglobal warming exists. Till folks like you can prove what the weather will be with 100%accuracy 3 days out, don’t bring us things you are sure are millions of years old…That takes far MORE faith then I have!

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brother Michael | January 14, 2012 at 7:28 am

Pete,
No – not if what I have read is Truth. There is truth in the world Pete and it is no relative based on upbringing or a book one has read. This is a rhethorical question as I don’t have time to further dialog, but do you believe in Truth? That there is truth in the world or is everything relative?

Per your statement, if you studied things out you would find countless individuals who have been raised in their respective religions from the womb, yet come to reject them and believe on Jesus as taught in the scriptures (I was raised as a Catholic from infancy and taught another gospel/Jesus); often at the cost of loss of family, money, jobs and their very lives (it cost me my marriage). Study it out and you will find what you state is false regardless of whether or not you believe the Bible. For myriad have been raised as muslims, read the koran, as well as those of other faiths, and come to believe that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. So your conclusion is wrong and has no merit and is not based on fact.

Good day –

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Mickey Merrie | January 14, 2012 at 8:37 am

PETE!!! Great News! I have your answer for proof of the reality of our Lord!

Click to access Hudson%20Taylor%27s%20Spiritual%20Secret.pdf

I am asking you to read 121 pages, the sum total of this book, and then let us know what you think?
I care about you, man! More then you could understand at this time, and so do others here.

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Pete | January 14, 2012 at 8:42 am

@Mickey Merrie:
On the contrary, I am very busy – I have a full time job and a wife and two children. I make time to read and consider such things, you should try it rather than keeping a narrow point of view.

It sounds like you don’t like reading another point of view. Does it scare you; the thought of no God? I wouldn’t blame you – like I’ve already mentioned I think a lot of people believe such things out of fear. I’m not sure I hope there is a God (certainly not the God of the bible) but I do hope there is life after death, I just think it extremely unlikely based on what we know.

@brother Michael:
I believe something can be true or not true, I believe someone can tell the truth or not tell the truth. Not sure what your getting at but there is your answer – just in-case you do decide to have another read. Oh and do you realise your last argument doesn’t mean much considering it’s happened the other way around too. For example: Matt Dillahunty (Google him if you don’t know who he is) was raised as a Baptist Christian, and sought to become a Baptist minister. His religious studies, instead of bolstering his faith as he intended, led to a complete rejection of Christianity.

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brother Michael | January 14, 2012 at 9:50 am

Pete,
Of course I know that people change from Christianity and become athiests or Muslims or Hindus or what have you!!! Give me some credit. My argument was to refute your claim which was false – which you did not admit. That is, where you claimed if I were raised a certain way that is how I would believe. Where that was not the case for me so your assumption was incorrect nor is it true for countless others where your example actually proves my point precisely. That is a person were raised in a certain faith this in no way dictates what they might believe later in life as they may come to reject said beliefs and to hold to new ones – so your example proved this to a “t”.

The question is whether there is truth that can be found, believed and then lived. For example, could Jesus really be who he said he is and can that truth be discovered and believed? Where I would not be fearful to ask the same question about Islam – for if say for arguments sake Islam is true, then it would do everyone well to convert.

Of course I believe Jesus is the truth and this is why I lay down my life for him with said belief – that is, I put legs to my belief and to not simply entertain philosophical debate about it without making the ultimate sacrifice to prove that I actually believe what I preach.

In any event, too philosophical to discuss here but it has been nice chatting with you. Best to you.

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Mickey Merrie | January 14, 2012 at 12:18 pm

No Pete I read, and have read quite a lot, in fact 30 pages an hour in most books. Have the required advanced degrees and run a successful money management business. By the way, my degrees are in education and history, and my business will celebrate 30 years in April. I too am married and have 2 children. Actually I have been baiting you a little bit, and you have tipped your hand quite nicely! The very things you claim others suffer with are in fact your issues! Thanks for opening up for us to see more clearly your prejudices and insecurities. I hope for your kid’s sake and your marriage that you get this all worked out. Let me know what you think of the book I linked earlier for you, but please do so AFTER reading all 121 pages…there might be a quiz! Otherwise Godspeed Pete!

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Mickey Merrie | January 14, 2012 at 12:40 pm

Dear brother, Pilgrim;
Do we not see in Pete’s last posts your very assessment that they will deny His existence, then attempt to shame Him!?
********************************************
“It sounds like you don’t like reading another point of view. Does it scare you; the thought of no God? I wouldn’t blame you – like I’ve already mentioned I think a lot of people believe such things out of fear. I’m not sure I hope there is a God (certainly not the God of the bible) but I do hope there is life after death, I just think it extremely unlikely based on what we know.”
*********************************************
Hypocrisy realized…I can’t wait for part 2 next week!

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Pete | January 14, 2012 at 2:01 pm

@brother Michael:
It’s been nice chatting with you too. Point taken – kind of, I know that people do not necessarily believe what they have been brought up to, and there are many examples of this. It’s just that the numbers don’t lie – percentages of religious people in Middle Eastern countries are usually > 90% Muslim; India/Nepal > 80% Hindu, South America > 90% Christian, etc. The geographical factor is a major one.

@Mickey Merrie:
If you think my words are hypocritical then you have misunderstood them. I have said:

* That a God exists, is very unlikely.
* I do not know whether I hope a God exists or not.
* I do hope there is life after death.

None of these statements contradict each other. Do you understand that? Do you know the difference between the words ‘hope’ and ‘believe’?

Apologies if I have misunderstood you but it seems you are grasping onto anything you can to ‘claim victory’. Good luck with that.

I’ve only just read your other post – I will have a look and let you know. If I do would you do me the courtesy of reading/watching something from “the other side”?

Regards,
Pete

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thejunglemissionary | January 15, 2012 at 6:36 am

Pete,

Allow me to ask something here –

1. Why would you “hope” there is life after death?
2. What purpose would such a life have if there was deity?
3. How would this be possible if there was no deity to help facilitate it (whether a person believes in God, Krishna, Buddha, etc.)?
4. Where would this next life take place if your “hope” proved true?
5. What do you expect would be different from the futility found in this life? An acknowledged historical figure, King Solomon of Israel, said, “All of life is but vanity.”

The Jungle Missionary

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mickey Merrie | January 15, 2012 at 8:47 am

Sure Pete, name a book…Hopefully it will be something interesting to me like physics or even metaphysics.

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Pete | January 15, 2012 at 9:41 am

@Mickey Merrie:
Your link only shows a little over 1 page… where’s the rest?

@thejunglemissionary:

Can I just make it clear that I do not believe there is life after death, I just hope there is.

A1. I hope it because I enjoy living, and I hope at least some of the things about living can continue after my body is incapable of carrying on.

A2. I don’t know.

A3. There is no reason to believe that (if there is a life after death – a big ‘if’) it needs any facilitation.

A4. I don’t know. Maybe another dimension – non-spatial, but I’m guessing really, and it’s based on the huge and probably incorrect assumption that there is life after death.

A5. I don’t find life futile, and I do not think it is vanity. I do not expect anything from life after death because I do not believe it to be true.

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mickey Merrie | January 15, 2012 at 11:09 am

Have faith Pete! Or at least use your ability to rationally think and figure it out the book is to be found for free in several places as a PDF…
http://www.bing.com/search?q=hudson+taylor%27s+spiritual+secret+pdf&form=DLCDF8&pc=MDDC&src=IE-SearchBox

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=pfwl&cp=36&gs_id=2&xhr=t&q=hudson+taylor's+spiritual+secret+pdf&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&pbx=1&oq=hudson+taylor's+spiritual+secret+pdf&aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=f6ca79d9fee3b8ec&biw=1366&bih=566

Now try to enjoy it! 🙂

Here Pete, it loads great for me, and is in an easy format to read!

Click to access Hudson%20Taylors%20Spiritual%20Secret.pdf

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Andrew | January 16, 2012 at 11:11 am

Pete i hope you get there, God says we are without excuse for not believing as creation should be self evident, notwithstanding the terrible deceptions of science so called and the religiion and philosophy of evolution. It takes far more faith to believe in something from nothing and that hydrogen can turn into people than in a the living creator God. The link you gave for the fossil record was incorrect as fossils are actually more proof of creation as things have not evolved in millions of years and there is not a shred of evidence that one speices has ever turned into another one, monkeys are still monkeys, germs are still germs, trees are still trees and fish are still fish and hundreds of PHD scientsist are creationists. evolution is just a philosophical idea that presents itself as operational science. I would start of by watching “No intellegence allowed” by Ben Stein to even start to see how corrupt and controlled science has become in suppressing the science of intelligent design and creation. The Bible explains why this is so , no other religion does this, an entire book could be written on why Christianity is unique from the pagan religions,
In a nutshell only the Bible describes the reality we live in and how this came about warts and all.

To throw your question back at you is it that you fear to believe in a creator who knows your every thought and deed ? Its natural, no one wants to confess they are fallen sinners who need to be saved from death and sin, we would rather pretend otherwise as mankind does not want to face the truth of his true condition and repent and cry to out for forgiveness and mercy. He loves us so much he came to the earth to be die for us. Buddha, Alah, Zeus or the Hindu Gods did not die for you pete. Christianity is not a Religion, its the way and the truth. Praying for you.

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Pete | January 16, 2012 at 3:17 pm

@Andrew:
You’re mistaken – evolution is neither faith nor philosophy. It is a fact, and classified as such because of overwhelming evidence. It takes no faith to believe in such a thing. The theory of evolution – is how and under what circumstances things evolve.

“Something from nothing”, “hydrogen can turn into people”.
I really thing you need to read up on what evolution is because in no way does it claim either of the above is true.

First of all evolution only attempts to explain what happens once life already exists, and can reproduce. How life began (which is what I think you’re referring to) is called the theory of abiogenesis – and is a completely different theory. When challenging a theory please try to challenge the evidence, anything else is futile.

Second of all no-one says that hydrogen can turn into people. I think you’ve completely misunderstood. Hydrogen atoms are what fuel a star, and inside stars they fuse together under heat and pressure to make other elements like helium. Helium fuses together to make heavier elements still, and so on. If you’re wondering how we know what goes on inside the sun then look up spectroscopy.

“there is not a shred of evidence that one speices has ever turned into another one”. Actually there is. Not just a shred, but masses of evidence. Do you believe in micro-evolution? (change through random mutation within a species). Do you understand that accumulating small changes make large changes? In other words, you can take small steps but eventually you will walk a mile.

There have been a few incidents where something has been claimed to support/prove evolution and then found to be a hoax (pigs tooth (1920s), etc). But these are a few isolated incidents – opposed to the many hundreds of thousands of experiments being performed all over the world independently.

Don’t believe everything you’re told/you read. Creationists with honorary degrees or ones of suspicious origin do not count! I’ve read many claims of degrees where the allocating institution was not locatable or not an official institution. I know there are some creationists who have legitimate (even noteworthy) doctoral degrees but they are extremely rare and there are many many more that agree evolution is a fact.

You say Christianity is the truth. What makes you say that? You know there are many other myths where ‘Gods’ sacrifice themselves for us, and are then resurrected. Baal, Melqart, Adonis, Eshmun, Attis, Tammuz, Asclepius, Orpheus, Krishna, Ra, Osiris, Zalmoxis, Dionysus. Why don’t you believe in any of these? When you realise that you’ll realise why I don’t believe in your God.

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072591 | January 17, 2012 at 11:51 am

Pete, I have a question: why are you here?

I don’t mean in the existential sense, but of the “Why are you at this site?” sense?

The purpose of this blog is not to try to convince people of Christianity, but to discuss things within Christianity. Since you reject the premise of the Bible, you really have nothing to contribute to the conversation, nor can you benefit from the discussion as everything is rooted on a foundation you reject. So what could you possibly get out of a site like this?

I am not a moderator, so don’t take this as any kind of declaration that you aren’t welcome here. I’m just someone who doesn’t understand what you would get out of this place if the poster at the top is not 100% accurate.

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Andrew | January 18, 2012 at 5:20 am

Pete Micro evolution is not one species turning into another one they are two different things, i repeat there is not a shred of evidence that one speices has turned into another one unless do you still believe in the Piltdown hoax? Evolution is a philopsophy and a religion and is not operational science, it cannot even be classed a theory through lack of evidence to support it. Its a fairy tale for grown ups, it simply cannot stand up to the rigours of real science and its actually impossible just given a few variables ie trillion, trillion, trillions etc to one, let alone the millions of variables needed for evolution to happen. Are you saying matter and energy is eternal? or are you saying matter and energy came from nothing and then turned into people via hydrogen? in which case where did it come from, this is far more ludicrous than a living creator God far far more.
Go watch “no intelliegence allowed” to see the corruption in science you are defending.
Answers in Genesis have over 150 PHD scientists on board and many who expose the corruption and explainn why evolution isa religion and a philosophy who can be seen on youtube.

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Pete | January 18, 2012 at 5:40 am

@Andrew:
Please re-read my post because your latest comments suggest that you didn’t take any of it in. For example I ASKED if you believe in micro-evolution, and I even explained that it is not the same as evolution. Then you go on to tell me that micro-evolution is not the same as evolution as though I didn’t just say that! lol

I am saying that if YOU suggest that something can be eternal, then by YOU’RE logic the universe can be, and needs no creator.

You see evolution as a fairytale, I see Christianity as a fairytale. The difference is I have evidence to back my belief up. You do not. So you may as well believe in every God, every myth, Santa, the tooth fairy, unicorns, etc.

@072591:
I’ve already been asked that question – here was my answer:
“I am here because I enjoy hearing other peoples point of view, even if I don’t agree with it. I primarily came to the site because I was searching for information on the evolution of the giraffe – and read the article on the miraculous evolution of the giraffe.”.

Adding to that, I think this post is a bit offensive; suggesting that atheists are contradictory in their beliefs. And take a look at that picture – am I supposed to be like that?!

I had an opinion on that and therefore made a post. Since then – I’ve just been replying and asking questions relevant to my responses.

Regards,
Pete

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Andrew | January 18, 2012 at 5:42 am

And what if your wrong Pete what then? It is written that Satan will deceive the world and that God has made foolishness the wisdom of men and that you have no excuse as creation is self evident if you have you have not been blinded by the false religion, philosophy and science falsey called of Satan. If i am wrong i suffer the same fate as you, if you are wrong its not looking good for you on Judgement day.
Are you genuine or are you here to infiltrate web sites promoting your anti God worldview and this is what its really about, a battle for worldviews. its not operatational science but a philosophy from Satan you are promoting.

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Pete | January 18, 2012 at 10:54 am

@Andrew:
I’ve said while I’m here – twice now! (see the post above yours).

What if I’m wrong? I guess the same thing will happen to me as will to you if you’re wrong about Islam, Sikhism, Judaism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Wicca, etc.

I try to believe something based on the likely hood of it being true – which has nothing to do with what effects may or may not occur because my belief. What you’ve implied supports my first post, and the response to this article which is that a lot of ‘believers’ only believe because of fear of what will happen if they don’t and they are wrong. That is not a good basis for belief.

Pete
—————————

I meant ‘why’ not ‘while’ 🙂

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Ky gal | January 18, 2012 at 2:21 pm

Still looking for loopholes, Pete?

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Pete | January 19, 2012 at 1:16 am

@Ky gal:
Loopholes in what? Something I don’t believe? That doesn’t even make sense does it?

How is trying to identify what is true looking for loopholes anyway?

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Ky gal | January 19, 2012 at 8:22 am

Sorry. I was making a joke. W. C. Fields, an American actor many years ago, was an avowed atheist. One time a friend happened upon him in a dressing room, reading a Bible. His friend asked what he was doing, and Fields replied, “Looking for loopholes.” That ‘s what this thread reminds me of, an atheist looking for loopholes. Curiousity maybe, or grace.

I will go back to my reading. Carry on!

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Chris Murray | January 29, 2012 at 1:49 pm

@Kygirl
Youre wasting your time as atheists have no sense of humour. It’s not “serious” enough for them. I just pwaying,atheist readers.
Loopholes indeed. I haven’t talked to an atheist yet that didn’t look for loopholes. Many have suggested that God should just “show himself” in the sky and I keep telling them that even if God DID show himself like that most atheists would say it’s an” illusion that couldn’t be explained” or some “trick” by NASA. It will never be enough. I’ve had atheists tell me on a number of occasions “I wouldn’t believe in God even if there was evidence for Him” which says to me they don’t WANT to find God so that they don’t have to be accountable for their actions but unfortunatly for all who buy into that nonsense the day will come. What will you do then ?

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Pete | January 29, 2012 at 5:02 pm

@Chris Murray:
“atheists have no sense of humour”
Generalise much? Maybe that was a joke and I just don’t get it, because of my lack of a sense of humour….

And for all the religions that you do not believe in, people will be saying “the day will come” for you.

I don’t think God should show Himself – there’s no need, He’s made Himself obvious through a book that was written thousands of years ago and copied, translated, copied, translated, bits taken out, bits added in. Oh – and just to make things clearer He’s offered up many other such books to test our faith – together with mountains of evidence that suggest things contradictory to His book. He couldn’t make it any clearer.

There, I made a “joke”.

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Chris Murray | January 30, 2012 at 11:13 am

@Pete
yeah,it’s something you probably wouldn’t get. As far as generalizing–it’s not generalizing when every atheist you have come in contact with shows the same Im-smarter-than-you-Christians attitude and does not for even one second show they can stop “thinking” so much!
As far as the “other religions” dooming me–you’re right. They probably are telling me something similar. However, I do not worry about what other people say, only what God says. To answer the next question you are going to ask I will say the following–Zeus,Thor,Buddah,Mohammed….NONE of them ever died for my sins and yours on a cross.

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Pete | January 30, 2012 at 3:09 pm

Chris – it sounds to me like you’re very defensive. I guess that’s because all of the atheists you’ve encountered are condescending towards you, like you have mentioned. That doesn’t mean all atheists in the world are like that though. I certainly try not to be.

And I’m afraid your statement was a huge generalisation, whether you admit it or not.

If your reason for following Jesus is because he sacrificed himself and was resurrected, then you might want to take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_god. It lists about 20 other mythical deities that sacrificed themselves and were resurrected.

Not that it matters. What matters is the truth… which we can only endeavour to find based on real evidence, and thus far I have not discovered any real evidence whatsoever to support Christianity (or any other religion).

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Pete | January 30, 2012 at 3:09 pm

Can anyone here give me a single piece of evidence that there is a creator? Or a single piece of evidence against evolution?

Oh and please please please try to give me something that hasn’t been refuted a thousand times before!! I have an idea… Ctrl+F on this page first and if you find what you’re about to post – don’t bother! http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html.

Should be interesting.

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LUKE1732 | January 30, 2012 at 6:23 pm

Pete, start here:

Let me know what you think.

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Pete | January 31, 2012 at 12:26 pm

Can you tell me what you are referring to specifically? I watched the video but all the guy really said was that nothing in science can ever be proven with 100% certainty.

The page I linked to covers that in great detail in these 2 places.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA202.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA301_1.html

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abidingthroughgrace | January 31, 2012 at 4:18 pm

Pete,
You mention where is the evidence of a creator…I don’t want to sound sarcastic here, but you are in it. The greatest evidence of a creator is the universe, stars, planets, earth, humans, animals, plants, etc. The world we live in is the only evidence we need.

As a college graduate with science degree I fail to see any convincing evidence that evolution is real. I understand the concept and why people believe it, but it isn’t true. We don’t need to provide evidence against evolution since it has never been proved.

I do find it interesting that you are so deeply concerned about this evidence and that evidence. Faith in our creator is bigger than evidence because faith by definition is the belief in something that is unseen. We can’t see Him or touch Him right now. We can only see HIM through the Bible and through Jesus who was the perfect imprint of His nature, God incarnate. I believe I see the work and evidence of our creator everywhere now that I have faith…but we are still talking about faith. The Christian faith is different from all others in the world because it is one that is supernatural and is not of us. It is a gift from our creator…it isn’t something we can make ourselves do or feel. It wasn’t my choice to go from being like you, a professed atheist, to a radical believer in Jesus of Nazareth, the true God and creator of the universe. My free will and my critical thinking was hijacked by a merciful, loving, and all powerful God. I pray the same happens to you, my dear friend. I was once a slave to sin and the world…but now I am a slave to Christ. What a joy.

In the love of our savior,
-atg

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Chris Murray | February 1, 2012 at 6:06 am

@Pete
Yes, I looked at the article provided by you and the difference in the listed gods and Jesus is none of the other gods died for my sins and yours. There has been enough evidence for Jesus through historical text and eyewitness accounts ( not just by Jesus’ followers ). The evidence is there if you want to see it. I doubt God would ever provide the kind of evidence most atheists/agnostics are looking for.
I don’t feel like I’m generalizing because all atheists that I have ever met, listened to,spoken with, and typed with exhibit the same disrespectful attitude towards Christians. I guess what is more troublesome is the “new age atheist” attitude that doesn’t really care about evidence for God as they have a hatred towards God. This is the type of atheist I come in contact with virtually every day. When I see such inflammatory statements being made ( none of which I would repeat here ) about the very God that sent his son Jesus to die for the sins of the world,any Christian would be offended!! I understand most atheists hold the position of “there are no consequences when I die so I’ll say what I please about your fairy tale god” but at least have some respect for those of us that DO believe in Him.

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Pete | February 1, 2012 at 7:26 am

@abidingthroughgrace:
What did you mention that hasn’t been answered a thousand times before? Nothing.
I repeat:

“Oh and please please please try to give me something that hasn’t been refuted a thousand times before!! I have an idea… Ctrl+F on this page first and if you find what you’re about to post – don’t bother! http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html.”

If you stick by what you’ve said then take a look at the link I’ve provided and tell me why what is said on there about your claims that is not valid.

It’s becoming all too obvious that there is nothing…

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lyn | February 1, 2012 at 7:43 am

Pete,

What do you hope to accomplish by your frequent visits here? Do you think you are going to convince a follower of Christ to forsake Him? You do not believe in Christ because you cannot believe, faith is a gift. It is not our job to ‘prove’ God is real, it is our job to proclaim the Gospel. If you die and go to hell, God will get glory; if He saves you and gifts you with eternal life, God will get glory. God reveals Himself to whom He chooses, we need not defend His existence, He can do that Himself and has done so through His creation. You are without excuse, you suppress truth and believe yourself to be wiser than the Creator of all things, yet the Bible calls you a fool, meaning ‘senseless, stupid, wicked’..Psalm 14:1, “The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.”

Repent of your wickedness and believe in the death and resurrection of Christ, who gave Himself so that sinners may be saved. You have no hope beyond the grave and will suffer eternal wrath apart from His grace.

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Abidingthroughgrace | February 1, 2012 at 7:55 am

Pete, I reviewed your little weblink yesterday and I fail to see the point. What does that website or what have you said different than the same baseless claims atheists have been arguing for the last couple centuries?

It’s like you are asking a math question ( what is 2+2?) and you get the same answer over and over again (=4) and you argue, what answer have you given that hasn’t already been given before?!? Your argument that our answer isnt sufficient for your mind is really meaningless. You can’t put all the weight of God’s existence on what humans think is empirical evidential fact. You are dealing with something far greater. Your position can be seen as Your face being 1″ from a giant redwood tree where all you see is the flat bark and you are shouting, “where is the tree?! I see no tree! This is a wooden wall!”

I saw this in all due respect and love. Belief in our creator is an act of faith because we can not see Him or touch Him. There are those who spend their lives arguing the flaws and holes in evolution and big bang, and those who argue the evidence of God. But that isn’t me. I’m trying to help you understand that the religion of science and the religion of evolution doesnt bind God. He transcends all these.

I am sorry that you don’t see what I see, but I’ll never discount the reality of God because you tell me there is nothing out there. My faith isn’t in your flawed human reasoning or in my flawed human reasoning, but it is in what I have seen, experienced, and know to be true because God has revealed Himself to me. How could you argue against that?

Sincerely, in the faith of our creator,
-ATG

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Pete | February 1, 2012 at 8:39 am

Clearly you cannot argue against that – but your position is exactly the same as someone’s who claims that The Invisible Pink Unicorn created everything.

You can’t put all the weight of The Invisible Pink Unicorn’s existence on what humans think is empirical evidential fact. You are dealing with something far greater. Your position can be seen as Your face being 1″ from a giant redwood tree where all you see is the flat bark and you are shouting, “where is the tree?! I see no tree! This is a wooden wall!”

Belief in The Invisible Pink Unicorn is an act of faith because we can not see The Invisible Pink Unicorn or touch The Invisible Pink Unicorn. There are those who spend their lives arguing the flaws and holes in evolution and big bang, and those who argue the evidence of The Invisible Pink Unicorn. But that isn’t me. I’m trying to help you understand that the religion of science and the religion of evolution doesnt bind The Invisible Pink Unicorn. The Invisible Pink Unicorn transcends all these.

I am sorry that you don’t see what I see, but I’ll never discount the reality of The Invisible Pink Unicorn because you tell me there is nothing out there. My faith isn’t in your flawed human reasoning or in my flawed human reasoning, but it is in what I have seen, experienced, and know to be true because The Invisible Pink Unicorn has revealed Himself to me. How could you argue against that?

Sound familiar? 🙂

You see the only way to determine fact from fantasy is these things that you disregard when it comes to your “God”.

@lyn:
You also could replace the word “God” with “The Invisible Pink Unicorn” and your statements remain as valid and convincing as they are now.

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Abidingthroughgrace | February 1, 2012 at 8:54 am

Pete, amusing but your comparison falls way short. The pink unicorn is missing these vital elements:
– nations built on it
– thousands of years of history behind it
– evidence and eye witness accounts of its incarnation and life and death thru Bible, archeology, and external sources
– many millions of people who believe the same identical thing for thousands of years
– an angry and failed opposition bent on refuting the existence for thousands of years.
– a purpose…your unicorn has no purpose God is every purpose
– something supernatural that changes he hearts of man

So, Although I do like unicorns, your comparison falls flat.

Oh, Pete, I forgot to mention these as well…no believers in the pink unicorn has:

– suffered torture by atheists (non unicorn brlievers) for their belief
– died at the hands of atheists while signing hymns and asking God to forgive their torturers and murderers
– refuse to recant beliefs even under torture

Take a look at Richard Wurmbrand’s story…it’s quite a bit different than any pink unicorn comparison.

In the savior’s grace,

-ATG

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lyn | February 1, 2012 at 9:21 am

Pete,
You failed to address my question, so I will repeat it- what do you hope to accomplish by your frequent visits here? Do you think you are going to convince a follower of Christ to forsake Him?
What is your motive for visiting a website that holds dearly to and loves Almighty God the Father, Son, and Spirit? I would never visit your website, if you had one, and mock your beliefs. Respect is something you seem to lack or deem unimportant, I suppose it has faded and been lost over ‘ions’ of evolving.

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Pete | February 1, 2012 at 1:29 pm

@lyn:
I’ve said why I am here 3 times now. What do I hope to accomplish? I’m seeking the truth, because I think it matters whether what you believe is true or not. So I hope to accomplish an understanding of other peoples points of view.

I’m not mocking anyone. Why do you say I lack respect? I have not intentionally insulted anyone.

You may not want to look at things from another point of view, which could be a heavily contributing factor to your belief.

@Abidingthroughgrace:
Now we are getting back to real reasons, thank you. But unfortunately none of what you have mentioned plays any bearing on whether something is true or not. Disagree, why?

Regards,

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abidingthroughgrace | February 1, 2012 at 2:04 pm

Pete, again we are back to what I suggested earlier this morning. Everything that I said points to the truth. You just don’t believe it because you can’t see the whole picture through your religion of science and evolution lenses.

I’m curious about a couple of things though.
1) Why do you think you are the truth meter of all the universe’s secrets? What gives you this all knowing omnipotent power?
2) What is your background? did you grow up attend a church or in an atheist home?
3) What separates your view of no God verses my view of God? Meaning what makes me believe and you not believe?

Just curious…it all may help me understand where you are coming from.

Sincerely,
-atg

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Pete | February 1, 2012 at 2:40 pm

@abidingthroughgrace:
But haven’t I demonstrated that the things that you think make your belief true (i.e. the things that cannot be refuted) can be said of X (replace X with anything made up).

To answer your questions:

a) I don’t – what makes you say that? I am trying to discover what the truth is – truth being something that is actually so. To determine such things we need to have a basis on which to differentiate between fact and fiction, i.e. logic and reason; the basis of science.

b) My parents never really had much interest in such things, I attended church only for marriages/funerals/etc.

c) I guess that’s what I’m trying to find out, for each person on here it may well be a different combination of things. At the moment I’m convinced a lot of believers believe out of fear or intellectual dishonesty (not everyone, just a lot). What I mean by the latter is people who believe in a God, and not wanting to obtain new information, or at least seriously consider it. The same cannot be said for atheists like me who try to hear all points of view, and even look for reasons to believe (I have and continue to do so). For instance, there are plenty of things that would convince me of a God, such as a being who makes themselves visible, proclaims to be such a being, and performs a repeatable independently verifiable supernatural event of any kind.

I wonder, is there anything that would convince you otherwise.

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abidingthroughgrace | February 1, 2012 at 3:13 pm

Pete,

Thanks for responding to my questions. In response to your first point above…no, not even close. As I suggested we are dealing with faith and supernatural changes to the human soul and I demonstrated that your pink unicorn idea was baseless and nothing like the reality of our God. So you haven’t demonstrated anything that can be replaced with my beliefs. I can enumerate those more specifically if you would like and you’ll see that there is nothing else that can ever replace the Christian faith. I would love to outline this for you so you can see that nothing else can compare.

a) you have asked a question like, “what evidence is there of a creator.” I respond…”the creation we live in.” And you have basically stated that that response is old response and does fit on your website and thus it is false. You are taking on the role of “tell me something I haven’t heard before because I know everything and I define truth”. You may not realize it, but this is what is being portrayed by your approach and response. I don’t believe that you are trying to determine what truth is based on your shutting down any response as “That’s not evidence!” and “Say it to the pink unicorn!” 🙂 If you were really seeking truth, you need to read the Bible about 5 times and attend a good Bible preaching Christian church in your area and listen to sermons and lectures from the people who defend the Bible as true and the God of the Bible as true and those that teach that Jesus is God and lived and died. Spend a year intently searching this out and I think the story would be different. It was for me. There is a place where you see that it is undeniably true. But you must immerse yourself into true pursuit of who Jesus Christ is, why He came, why He died and what is death accomplished.

b) me too. But God revealed himself to me. I grew up in non-religious home and was awestruck by the reality of Jesus Christ in college. Crazy…but true.

c) thank you for the honestly here. I agree with you for the most part. Most people believe out of habit, culture, fear, whatever. For me and many others its drastically different. I believe in the God of the Bible and Jesus as the messiah of scripture and God himself because it was revealed to me by God for His purpose. God will not reveal himself physically…he is not physical. He is not knowable on the level you want to have shown to you…He is so much bigger than that. This is a God who requires Faith. Faith…belief in that which is unseen, unheard, untouched. We’re talking about faith…not something that fits in our puny little minds. Our minds cannot fathom who God is or why he does what he does. We must have faith and believe and He begins to open our eyes to all the glories of His creation and existence as time goes on.

Final point – anything that would change my mind and convince me otherwise? Yes there is…and it happened. Remember I was a raging atheist shouting, “So me the truth all you thick headed pansies!” And low and behold God showed me. He changed me. He convinced me. So, yes, I am living proof and I have been convinced already. You can be too if you just lay down the “Pete needs proof and Pete has it all figured out”, humble yourself in the site of your creator, dig into the Bible, learn from Biblical scholars and Biblical scientists. You do this and you’ll never be the same.

You also might consider 3 books by Lee Strobel: Case for Christ, Case for the Creator, Case for Faith. He wrote the first one as an atheist out to prove the Bible false in a courtroom style case and it changed his life. Strobel’s book was influential for me as young mushy headed Christian.

Your friend,
-atg

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Chris Murray | February 1, 2012 at 4:54 pm

@abidingthroughgrace
I would love to hear your testimony sometime. I am so happy that you have given your life to Christ but I’m even happier that you were once a raging atheist that gave his life to Christ. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if all of us could illuminate the moment God decided to show Himself? Oh, I know it’s not usually just one moment that converts you but I think alot of us have an “oh,THATS who I need to follow” moment. My fathers group was the backup group for Elvis from 69-71 and they went on to be a very succesful gospel group but my dad didn’t get saved until 1982. In spite of being in church 8 days a week i was not anywhere near God untill my early 30’s. I realized I had wasted my life. I had a promising career in music but God took it away as I was not using it for His glory. Now,due to my athritis I can no longer play my drums,guitar,bass or keyboard but instead of being mad at God I started seeking His will for my life. I still have much to learn but at least I feel I’m on the right track. Thank you for listening.

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Pete | February 2, 2012 at 11:54 am

@abidingthroughgrace:
Not sure if you understood my point (my fault!)

You discounted The Invisible Pink Unicorn because, regarding Christianity and the God it portrays:

(Please excuse my paraphrasing)

1 – nations have been built on it.
2 – it has thousands of years of history behind it.
3 – it has evidence and eye witness accounts of its incarnation and life and death through the Bible, archaeology, and external sources.
4 – many millions of people have believed it for thousands of years.
5 – it has sustained an angry and failed opposition bent on refuting its existence for thousands of years.
6 – it has a purpose…your unicorn has no purpose – God is every purpose.
7 – it is something supernatural that changes the hearts of man.

From these points 6 and 7 can easily be said of The Invisible Pink Unicorn. You say God is every purpose, I say The Invisible Pink Unicorn is every purpose. The Invisible Pink Unicorn is something supernatural that changes the hearts of man.

Numbers 1, 2, 4 and 5 bear no influence on whether something is true or not.

That leave number 3 which can be split up into 3 things:

a) “Eye witness accounts of its incarnation and life and death through the Bible”. Eyewitness accounts are unreliable. People say they see Elvis, aliens, etc. Also see http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH110.html

b) “Archaeology”. See my earlier link here: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH120.html

c) “External Sources”. Please can you elaborate?

Disagree with anything here, please be specific? I’m also trying to understand 🙂

Kind regards,
Pete

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Abidingthroughgrace | February 3, 2012 at 10:44 pm

Pete, I didn’t get notified of your response. I just saw it.

You missed the other essentials I mentioned.
No one has ever been martyred for the pink unicorn.
No one has loved and prayed for their torturers and killers because of the pink unicorn.

Do I disagree? Yes, with every bit of your assertion. I am not attempting to give evidence. I am explaining faith. You claim the pink elephant is interchAngable with our God of the Bible…my 12 or so points simply show you that your comparison is deeply flawed.

With respect, I really don’t believe you are trying to understand. I believe you are simply trying to win some tired old “no evidence for God” argument. Here is why I feel this way.
1. You have not addressed the issue of faith when Christianity is FAITH. Christianity isn’t based on human ideas of evidence…it is based on faith of an unseeable and untouchable infinite being (except for thru Christ in the Bible).
2. You will not talk about the details of Christianity, the content and power of the Bible, or Jesus. You are stuck on human ideas, which I believe are sinful, flawed, self-serving, and weak.
3. You won’t deal with my supernatural conversion. You asked I my view could ever change and I explained how it had already and you have no interest in discussing this.
4. You ask questions and get answers from Christian perspective and you discount them because you don’t understand them. This isnt critical thinking. You are not analyzing the case from the perspective of those who believe…but only from your limited perspective. I know this because I have been there.
5. You still don’t understand Christ and Christianity.

I say these thing with respect and love. I was where you are. Forget about evidence and proof and let’s talk about Jesus Christ. Let’s talk about faith. Let’s talk about what in means to be an adopted child of God who will inherit eternal life. We are not scientists here. We are weak and sinful men and women who have been supernaturally changed by a gracious unseeable God so that we CAN know Him and CAN believe in Him. Dont you want that? Let’s talk about these things.

In the love of our savior
-atg

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Pete | February 4, 2012 at 6:07 am

Apologies if it sounds like I am not trying to understand – I am and I think I am getting there.

Your whole point seems to stem from the fact that you understand there is no natural evidence for God’s existence but that’s okay. I guess what I am trying to understand is how do you determine fact from fantasy without using natural evidence? Until I can understand that discussing Jesus would be pointless for me.

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Stormbringer | February 4, 2012 at 6:10 am

Comedian Brad Stine pointed out that atheists are irrational. They are “offended” by “In God We Trust” and other “religious” phrases or quotes from Scripture. How rational is it to be offended by something you don’t even believe exists? (Obviously, they choose to be offended. Hypocrisy.)

He also pointed out that people are offended because 2,000 years later, Jesus is still intimidating people!

Requiring strictly natural explanations is like saying, “We play in my ballpark with my equipment and my rules. By the way, the first rule is that I win”. Naturalistic presuppositions or nothing at all. Sounds fair.

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Pete | February 4, 2012 at 12:44 pm

@Stormbringer:
None of your 3 paragraphs make any sense – many Christians are offended by the Davinci Code – does that make them irrational? Atheists are not offended or intimidated by the make believe, but they can of course be offended by words, whether true or not. Understand?

Requiring natural explanations is nothing like what you said. Everything that happens in this universe is natural *because* it can happen. If something happens that is not natural according to current laws and theories guess what? New theories and laws are made or existing ones are changed.

You see that’s the great thing about science – it is trying to explain how things *are* and it is always improving. Do you fear it because it provides evidence for things that do not fit in with your absolute belief system?

If we cannot explain something by natural means, how can we explain it?

Here is an appropriate quote: “Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned”.

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Stormbringer | February 4, 2012 at 2:37 pm

“Atheists are not offended or intimidated by the make believe…” Arbitrary assertion with a dash of ad hominem. Understand?

“Everything that happens in this universe is natural *because* it can happen.” So?

“If something happens that is not natural according to current laws and theories guess what? New theories and laws are made or existing ones are changed.” So why are outdated, fraudulent, disproved evolutionary fairy tales still in textbooks? Why do people still believe in evolution when there is no evidence? I get hit with, “Well, we have proof NOW!”, but that adds to the faith nature of evolutionism, “science of the gaps” where “someday science will come up with the answers”. I don’t have that kind of blind faith.

“You see that’s the great thing about science – it is trying to explain how things *are* and it is always improving.” Condescend MUCH, or just continually? “Do you fear it because it provides evidence for things that do not fit in with your absolute belief system?” Who said I am fearing anything at all? When I began “Question Evolution Day”, fundamentalist evolutionists and atheo-fascists went ballistic. Why? What is wrong with the spirit of true scientific inquiry of offering alternative explanations that fit the facts? I believe it is because of the fear that if the truth about evolution is discovered, people will realize that there is, in fact, a Creator.

“If we cannot explain something by natural means, how can we explain it?” Many evolutionists resort to the aforementioned “science of the gaps” as a rescuing device when they are confronted with following where the evidence leads: A Creator.

“Here is an appropriate quote: “Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned”.” Let me take that silly quote further: Evolutionism is a religion because it is closely guarded and dissent is not tolerated.

What are you afraid of?

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Andrew | February 5, 2012 at 3:01 am

Sorry Pete i just don’t have the blind faith that you have in a completley unproven philosophy to accept evolution, its not only impossible, its ludicrous and is falling apart at the seams when examined for what it really is. They even indoctrinate the kids to think micro evolution is proof of macro evolution. I don’t know a single creation scientist who denies (misnamed) micro evolution which is simply genetic variation and natural selection adapability in the same species which is why we have 200 variaties of dogs and big and little horses and bacteria that mutates, short stocky eskimos, tall people and pygmies. I have even seem claims that because bacteria mutates its proof of evolution. LOL You have embarrasing ammounts of frauds and deceptions used in the desperate attempt to make the world believe in this fairy tale. Piltdown man, nebraska man, java man. lucy, neanderthal jaw put together wrong to make it look ape like. Its a complete joke but i am not laughing. Its really sad to so many indocrinated into this false religion and philosophy that is diametrically opposed to real science. 150 years after Darwin we are still waiting for the thousands upon thousands of transient fossils that must exist if evolution is true to be discovered. Where is our 1/4 fish and 3/4 reptile? where is our 1/2 reptile and 1/2 bird and all the millions of variations in between? I already have a faith Pete but no where near enough blind faith that you have to leave mine and accept yours. You believe in material pantheism, effect with no cause, creation out of nothing, you can pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic. You can’t expect rational people to accept this religious and philosophical indoctrination surley? Your magic wand is time, your witches cauldron is primordial soup, your incantations are the words “nature and natural processes” This is your religion Pete.

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Pete | February 5, 2012 at 4:19 am

@stormbringer and @Andrew:
You both call evolution a fairytale… you claim there is no evidence for evolution, but I say you just don’t know about or don’t understand enough about the evidence… you clearly believe in micro-evolution and therefore must agree that point mutations happen yet you fail to accept that new information can accumulate. Let me know if any of that is untrue.

A point mutation (that which must happen for micro-evolution to take place) can be an insertion of information (see frame-shifting) that changes all “code” from after the point of the insertion. This insertion happens in a series of amino-acids. The amino-acids are what make up a protein and the order and content of the amino-acids determine how it folds. How a protein folds determines how it functions.

Bearing that in mind, do you see how micro-evolution can create a completely new function? If that function is beneficial then it may help the parent organism to out-survive competitors.

Please let me know your issues with the above I’d love to try and understand them.

Kind regards,
Pete

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Stormbringer | February 5, 2012 at 4:28 am

Speaking of blind faith… When the Bigger and Better ® telescopes were pointed at the deep universe, even more galaxies were found. Cosmologists were baffled, it meant that their ideas for the age of the universe and the time of the Big Bang were too young, even at 20 million years. It meant that the universe had to be much older to fit their ideas, but if it was too much older, what we see could not exist. But those other galaxies were there. Some said outright that they simply would not believe.

This is “science” in action.

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Stormbringer | February 5, 2012 at 9:27 am

“I say you just don’t know about or don’t understand enough about the evidence”. I was just writing about this ridiculous logical fallacy in preparation for my podcast interview on creationism and ID. Cool, huh?

Why not drop that remark on the scientists who know a great deal about evolution and have rejected it? Ever hear of Dr. A.E. Wilder-Smith, with three earned science doctorates, plus professorships and other qualifications? He was a creationist. So were many more. They did not get their degrees from Billy Bob’s Fundamentalist Church and Seminary and College and Bait Shop, either. No, that “you would accept it if you weren’t so unedjamakated” dog won’t hunt.

Let’s see how well this works the other way: If you knew anything about evolution, especially the science aspects, you would reject it. Let me guess: All you know about creation and ID evidence is what you were told to reject, and you have not been intellectually honest enough to learn what we REALLY say. Am I correct there?

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Pete | February 5, 2012 at 12:17 pm

@Stormbringer:
Please enlighten me on why it’s a logical fallacy.

I’m neither saying nor implying that you or anyone else on here is uneducated, or less intelligent than atheists. I mean what I said – I think you “don’t know about or don’t understand enough about the evidence”. I might well be wrong – but if I am please make your comments on the paragraph where I tried to “edjamakate” you on some of the specifics.

I have heard of Wilder-Smith – in fact a couple of months ago I listened to him debate against Richard Dawkins (an old debate). He is a very good speaker, clearly gifted in the art of rhetoric. But so is Professor Dawkins, and the debate ended with Professor Dawkins winning, although even he admitted afterwards that he was ashamed it was so close.

I do know about the science aspects of evolution – as I hope I demonstrated a little of in my earlier comment. And I think rejecting it would be crazy.

Everything I know about creation and ID I have found out myself. No-one in my family or group of friends or even work colleagues are interested in this kind of thing. Because I am, I listen to debates, read articles, learn about different religions, learn about science, and try to get to an informed position.

By the way I continue to be objective, and take in other points of view – including yours. Why do you think I am here? I need to listen to other peoples views otherwise mine would be less informed. I wonder if you are so open-minded…

Would you care to comment on the specifics about evolution? What is it that you don’t agree with or understand?

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Stormbringer | February 5, 2012 at 1:03 pm

Saying that people reject evolution because they don’t understand it is a ridiculous fallacy, and very common. Have you ever bothered to learn the evidence that is NOT cherry-picked to prove evolution? Want to see evidence that it is wrong, and that the evidence better supports a creator? Try my Piltdown Superman dot com site for a springboard.

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Pete | February 5, 2012 at 2:07 pm

Okay I’ll have a look thanks.

Please may I have your comments on:
—
“A point mutation (that which must happen for micro-evolution to take place) can be an insertion of information (see frame-shifting) that changes all “code” from after the point of the insertion. This insertion happens in a series of amino-acids. The amino-acids are what make up a protein and the order and content of the amino-acids determine how it folds. How a protein folds determines how it functions.

Bearing that in mind, do you see how micro-evolution can create a completely new function? If that function is beneficial then it may help the parent organism to out-survive competitors.”.
—

Genetics is the most concrete evidence for evolution in human history so far – probably the reason why in a 2009 poll 97% of scientists supported evolution over creation. Not that the majority is always right of course… flat-earth etc.

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Andrew | February 5, 2012 at 3:08 pm

Micro evolution only stays within the same species, which is why mutating bacteria are still bacteria for example after your so-called billions of years. The information is already there for natural selection and mutation within a species, No one denies this. Please provide any real scientific evidence for a both a mechanism which can add in new information for one species changing into another, where that new information comes from (and we know its not mutation as thast remains in a species and can only use the information that is already there by genetic variation and adapatabily ) and evidence of that happening in the real world without the well known frauds and deceptions evolutionists use to their shame. If evolution was true you should have thousands upon thousands of examples. Evolutionists start of with an assumption then try to find evidence to support that assumption in the real world and fail (the fact they use fraud, fakery, decpetion and leaving all the the real science out of the text books is a proven and a verifable fact and even real non God bible believing scientists have said this but this but this is not in the text books) ,This is not science, this is religion and philosophy. I like science and like real science that is observable and provable or at least has evidence for and is operational but evolutionists cannot claim this. You believe in magic and effect without cause. You believe in something from nothing, You believe in logical fallacies and belief systems without evidence.
Evolution cannot stand up to the real scientific method and cannot even claim to be a theory as theories require evidence. It still remains materialistic pantheisim, assumption and requires magic to happen.
Its modern paganism pure and simple.

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abidingthroughgrace | February 5, 2012 at 9:09 pm

Pete,

Hello again. I wanted to jump back to our conversation which was making great headway. I won’t address the items since then. Again I appreciate your willingness to talk. Your comment from above:

“I guess what I am trying to understand is how do you determine fact from fantasy without using natural evidence? Until I can understand that discussing Jesus would be pointless for me.”

I’m just going to tell you how it worked for me and I suggest you follow this pattern and see where it goes. Bear with me on this the whole story leads to the points.

As I have mentioned several times, I grew up in a religion-less, Godless, but very moral home. By the time I entered the college of Electrical Engineering I was a full blown atheist. I did not believe in a God, I believed in science and evidence. I believed in evolution and thought the Bible was stupid and those who followed it were stupid as well…weak people who needed a crutch. This is no exaggeration. I remember on time over coffee teasing someone about the Book of Genesis and people living to be hundreds of years old…up to 900+ years old. Stupid! Ridiculous! Lame! Six months later I was sitting in a chair in a large church in my home town and I heard the story of Jesus for the first time.
I won’t bore you with the detail of how I ended up in the church, I’ll just say that I was invited by a very close friend and I went – and I kept going…I actually have never quit attending and this was 15 years ago. Here is where the whole fantasy/fact issue comes into play. I started to hear about 2 things: 1) sin was a problem that I had (all people had) and 2) the details of who Jesus Christ was. I was being told that Jesus was God, he was born in a supernatural way, and he lived a sinless life. Although living a sinless life he was falsely arrested, illegally tried, tortured, and killed on the cross. The story was that his death on the cross somehow solved the problem of my sin and God. If I sinned I be punished for eternity, but if I believed in Jesus Christ (who he was and what he did) I’d be saved from this punishment, but better yet I’d inherit eternal life and the kingdom of God. As I was hearing this story, I was thinking things like: “This can’t be true…or…that sounds different than other religions…and…you mean it isn’t about me being a good person?” I was beginning to think one simple thing: “If this is true, I’ve got a problem.” Because of this I started doing several things:
1) I started reading the Bible to figure out what this story was all about. It’s a big and complex story with great subtleties and I was confused and curious. But it seemed farfetched.
2) So because of what I was reading I started to do research to see if any of the info from the Bible had any corroborating evidence. I didn’t start looking for evidence of creation of evidence of God. I could tell from the Bible that the God described within it wasn’t temporal, but spiritual and eternal. I was very science minded and figured there was no evidence of God’s existence.
3) I started to look into the reliability of the Bible – my research here showed me that although for thousands of years people have tried everything to discredit the Bible, there was more evidence that it is authentic and accurate. There are tons and tons and tons of reliable manuscripts very close to the actual events and in several languages and so on. Archeology also confirms a lot of the Bible’s stories. It was clear that the Bible was reliable enough to know that it was at least an unchanged ancient document.
4) So if this was true, or true enough to scratch my head – again not looking for absolute smoking gun evidence, but realistic likely reality that these things could be true – I started think than about Jesus. Was Jesus in fact a historical person? This was also corroborated by external sources like Josephus the Jewish historian and some others I don’t remember right this minute. I saw several convincing references to Jesus of Nazareth that I could say, well, I guess he was a real person of history. But other religious figures where real people of history too. So what? What was the big deal?
5) Then there was the whole issue of Jesus’ death and resurrection and ascension to heaven. This all seemed so fanciful and so far out that I had a hard time just saying, ok…sure. Evidence of these things is thin for sure…I mean we are talking about a single event in a small nation in the Middle East 2000 years ago. When I was looking into this piece, what got me was 2 fold: 1) the Bible proclaims that hundreds of people saw Jesus after his death and resurrection. No one disagreed with this point. This part of the ancient document still existed and it was not something slipped in by some person. These documents were spread all over the Mediterranean and it wasn’t removed or discounted as a lie or by the so called hundreds. This isn’t proof though…just corroborating evidence. Circumstantial maybe. The other was, 2) many people of history who lived during those days went to their death proclaiming his resurrection as truth. Who does that? Why would someone accept torture and death for a lie? This can’t be denied. The reaction of the disciples and those who died soon after died as radicals claiming Jesus rose from the dead. Again not hard evidence, but definitely corroborating.
At this point I was seeing that the story of the Bible was so unique from any other religion. It wasn’t written by man…it was different…it featured a God who created man, but came as a man to die in the place of man because man couldn’t live up to the commandments (holiness of God) and all they had to do was believe? All other faiths require man to work and do good and store up good deeds for access to the afterlife. Not Christianity…God comes to Earth as man, takes our punishment and gives those who believe in him eternal life. This was different. I was also seeing that there was a massive pile of corroborating evidence: historicity of Jesus and others in the Bible was there, reliability of the Bible was there, the actions of the disciples and acceptance of the story of the resurrection around the east and Greece/Rome just after the death of Christ. These things were really stacking up to make me say: “Hmmm, there could be some real truth to this.” It wasn’t a hard iron clad smoking gun evidentiary case. It was a case of FAITH with a heavy dose of external support.
I continued on now as a tentative believer seeking out more info and began to look at the science of Creation. Wow. This is where the wheels started coming off my old worn out evolution and no creation position. Evolution was dismissed within a couple of weeks based on the great work of the Institute of Creation Research, Kent Hovind and the Creation Science Evangelism, and Hank Hanegraaff’s simple book The Face that Demonstrates the Farce of Evolution. By lying pro-creation science next to anti-creation science I was convinced very quickly that science demonstrates a Creator and a higher power. This was a powerful addition to the evidence pile that I was building above. Lee Strobel’s book, The Case for Christ was a huge influence as well. He interviews the experts and tries to bring some doubt to the Bible. He couldn’t do it.
So this is where I was left. I had no smoking gun like I could follow the yellow brick road and find God on the end of it and say, “ok, cool, so he does exist”. I had to work out in my own mind how all this corroborating evidence stacked up against my anti-God, Anti-Bible position. It was a slow unveiling of information that led me to believe without a doubt that there was a God and the Bible was reliable and I could learn who he was in that Bible. So I read it. In reading it I saw that I couldn’t live up to God’s standards and that I would fall way short of his holiness and I would be facing him someday and I would be sent to punishment for my sins. But in this same Bible God became man and lived sinless and took my punishment so that I could share in his inheritance and his eternal life. Wow! What? Crazy! Could this really be true? So I have continued to research and continued to read and study and pray and I see God everywhere. I have had days where I have had doubts and I wonder…is it real? Then I go back through in my mind why I believe. Why I have faith and again I am convinced.
So this is how we can discern fact from fantasy. It is hard work and takes patience and takes effort to discover the truth in a world that is against this truth. The world is trying to repress the truth and it must be mined and dugout and sought. There is no smoking gun, but there is a mountain of evidence that convinces me every day that my FAITH is in a God that is REAL.
I hope this has been helpful and encouraging to you. This is my personal story and I truly hope you will go down this road a fair distance to find truth for yourself and not stand on the sidelines waiting for something to fall in your lap. Put the hard work in…worst case is you’ll come out still not believing that God exists. However, I believe that you’ll be very impressed and very excited about what you find. Read the Bible over and over. Read Lee Strobel’s books. You’ll have a better picture of the Christian faith and confidence afterwards.

In faith,
-atg

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Pete | February 6, 2012 at 12:23 am

@Andrew:
From your comments I see you understand very little about evolution. What part of evolution states that something comes from nothing? Evolution is only concerned with things that already exists and can reproduce. Maybe you are talking about the theory of abiogenesis?

Read the Wikipedia page on Evolution and please try to learn and understand something about it… then you will be in a better position to put forth your arguments.

@atg – I’ll have to read and digest that later today – I’ll be back 🙂

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Stormbringer | February 6, 2012 at 2:48 am

Evolution does not attempt to explain the origins of life? That’s a common evolutionists policeman’s exit (cop out), and disingenuous at best. Note evidence to the contrary cited here: http://youtu.be/f02g9w241XI

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Andrew | February 6, 2012 at 11:02 am

I thought it was obvious that i was attacking the whole spectrum of evolution beginning from cosmic evolution, my apologies if this was clear. The Big Bang theory is an attempt to describe the creation and evolution of the universe is it not? We know how the cosmic evolutionists cleverley cop out the something from nothing paradox by sophistry but its there to haunt them all the same. Notice the circular reasoning i have seen quoted to make the question go away: “Beyond that the theory cannot explain how the Big Bang singularity came into existence. it is really pointless to attempt to go back beyond the Big Bang, it is meaningless to ask what came ‘before’ because there is no ‘before’. Time itself came into existence with the Big Bang” See, invent an assumption then make out that its pointless to question that assumption due to very nature of the assumption itself. This is a something from nothing assumption that has a built in paradox and trap within itself to prevent it being questioned. I would call it circular reasoning.

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Pete | February 6, 2012 at 12:24 pm

Okay I’ve watched the videos and there is a clear misunderstanding here. Apologies as part of that misunderstanding was mine – and I should have been clearer.

As I was talking about micro-evolution contributing to the evidence for macro-evolution, which are both biological things, I would have thought your comments were about biological evolution. But instead you seem to be talking about what I consider other meanings.

* Biological evolution – change in characteristics of living organisms over generations.
* Nucleosynthesis – creation of elements through the Big Bang, or supernovae.
* Cosmological evolution – formation of galaxies, stars, etc.
* Abiogenesis – the transition from non-living elements to living systems.

So, Andrew – which of the above do you claim has no evidence? I understand you do not think new information can come from micro-evolution… in my earlier post I demonstrated how it can:

“A point mutation (that which must happen for micro-evolution to take place) can be an insertion of information (see frame-shifting) that changes all “code” from after the point of the insertion. This insertion happens in a series of amino-acids. The amino-acids are what make up a protein and the order and content of the amino-acids determine how it folds. How a protein folds determines how it functions.”

I’ll try to explain how I see this: Imagine a key and a lock although more spatially accurate a rock with jagged edges that ‘fits’ a dent. Now let’s change the blueprints for the rock (slightly or dramatically) so that the jagged bits are a different shape. Now the rock may still fit the original dent (maybe better maybe worse), it may fit a different dent, it may now fit many dents or it may fit none.

That is how I understand new information is introduced via micro-evolution, and the accumulation of these small changes coupled with natural selection make the lasting big changes over time.

All of the arguments I hear about it being compared to noise in a digital signal, which is always a bad thing, are flawed. The mutation (insertion in this example) is like noise yes, but the process is not comparable to a digital signal because of 2 major factors. 1. It is more of a spatial process, which is why I chose the key/lock example and 2. With noise in a digital signal all the receiver gets is a noisy signal, but with a mutated gene it is often a copy of the gene that is mutated, so the original and the “noisy” one are received.

Please tell me where you don’t agree – I’m open to the fact that I may be missing or misunderstanding something!

——————–

@atg:
Thank you for your personal story… I will keep digging 🙂

What fascinates me is genetics, so that is where I’m coming from mainly… although I do try to keep up with all the debates and other areas. I’ve never read the bible cover to cover but I plan to along with a few others out there.

It’s hard to take anything Kent Hovind said seriously considering his actions although I guess one things got nothing to do with the other…

Yeah I’ve looked into the historical accuracy of events in the bible, including but not limited to prophecies. But for those that aren’t ambiguous, unfortunately there’s no way to tell whether the stories were written after the event or not. Coupled with the prophecies that did not come true I am not convinced.

The way I see it at the moment – if there is a God, and therefore I am punished for using my faculties to the best of my ability to determine his legitimacy, then so be it! I can do nothing more.

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abidingthroughgrace | February 6, 2012 at 3:00 pm

Pete, Thanks for reading and considering digging deeper into the Christian perspective. Kent Hovind’s decision not to pay taxes is not Biblical and he deserves to be in prison. Very lame in my opinion…however, his science is great.

The prophecies of the Bible are important of course, but look into the historical support as well. Look at it as if Jesus was a real person, and if so, then that means something.

God won’t punish you for using your faculties to determine his legitimacy. He’ll only punish you if you don’t believe that Christ is God and died for your sins. But if you believe this you won’t receive His wrath, but His infinite blessing. If you deny Him and discount His existence, then you’ll have problems. But you’ll see this clearly as you read the Bible cover to cover and see the unfolding mystery of the redemption of man by God.

Please read Lee Strobel’s books as well. These 3 books he wrote will give you most of the information you need to understand the Christian perspective of the existence of God and the evidence to which we hold.

I’d love a chance to interact with you as you read the Bible cover to cover. Can we do that some how?

-atg

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Pete | February 8, 2012 at 7:19 am

Sure. Not sure when I plan to do this but when I do I don’t mind at all. Are you happy to post an email address or something?

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PragmaticThinker | December 13, 2014 at 12:47 pm

Atheism is in no way the belief that “There is no God”. It’s the idea that we shouldn’t believe anything unless we have a logical reason or evidence for doing so. I don’t have evidence that the Loch Ness monster exist, so I live my life with the assumption that it doesn’t. However, I have no way of knowing that it DOES NOT exist, however unlikely that seems, therefore I would never present this as fact or try to convince people I know it does not exist for a fact. Just because we don’t know if something exists doesn’t mean we NEED to believe in it… otherwise we would be required, by our own logic, to believe in EVERYTHING that we can’t prove (unicorns, leprechauns, God, and every single thing we could imagine.) This would be chaos, we would believe every random thing we imagine or hear is reality… We need to use reasoning and evidence to decide the state of reality, that is atheism.

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