The story behind this is worth reading, and you can find it here. In that story, Pastor Rodriguez says that he didn’t think he handled this situation correctly, and maybe he should have asked for his pastor’s counsel, but I think it turned out perfectly.
Christ Alone Wyoming 
The irony is that if you look at the longer clip, she just prophesied over him as a man of God…it’s amazing then that she goes on to state otherwise.
Sometimes the gift of prophecies don’t lead a prophet to see important things ahead of them I suppose, such as what he will say with the mike.
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In “her” face … as he speaks the truth in love! Beam me up, Scotty!
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My question is not about the one who rebuked or the content of his rebuke, my question is – why do the other folk not confront her in the same way? Molly my dachshund is every bit as much a prophet as this sad sack deceiver.
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tex – Your dog has better sense than most folk who worship such as the false prophetess in the video. It is human nature to want to be God – in charge of one’s “blessings” and salvation – plus humans lust after signs and wonders, which is not spoken well of in Scripture.
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The video didn’t contain the the woman’s prophecy, but I imagine it was likely false. Nevertheless, wouldn’t the scriptual approach to the situation within the body of Christ be to confront the person in private first and allow them to repent? Take the issue before the elders with witnesses. Do any of you point out the sins of others in public?
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Alan, did you read the link with the story behind what happened? He was set up by her on the spot! And, no, there is no need to privately address her because what she is doing is public and by publicly rebuking her any follower there will hear the truth!
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1 Timothy 5:20, ‘Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.’
Look at the reaction from her followers, who were mostly women. Hostile women. That is what a false ministry produces, self-deceived, self-righteous blind followers.
They are lost, and unless God Himself moves, they will remain so.
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I completely agree with you Doreen!
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Sure didn’t take her long to “gently” “dismiss” him from the TV set, did it? Wouldn’t want to have a serious discussion about his assertion now would she? Wolf in sheep’s clothing? I think not. More like a wolf in wolf’s clothing pontificating in front of blind, deaf, dead, willing-to-be-pumped-full-of-themselves-women. Where are the men?
Todd
Texas
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Alan,
You state “Nevertheless, wouldn’t the scriptual approach to the situation within the body of Christ be to confront the person in private first and allow them to repent? Take the issue before the elders with witnesses. Do any of you point out the sins of others in public?”
This would be necessary if the woman were a true follower of Christ, however, she isn’t. Doreen nailed it when she brought to light 1 Timothy 5:20. This man handled the situation quite biblically.
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I agree with Doreen and unworthy that the approach is Scriptural is Sound.
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It is not identical this incident and one described in Scripture (and having seen this video before, something comes to me today that didn’t then to share after reading the comments in here), but there is something that can be said that may have been produced in others by what this man did as was produced in some as recorded in Philippians? let’s hope so?
The Apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians that his witness and cause for being in prison was causing others to be emboldened to rise up in the Faith, too! Let’s hope and pray that those in the audience behind that front row of women who were being driven by emotions to react the way we see they did, silly women you might say, were being touched and emboldened to rise up in the Faith and begin to give as clear a witness to the Truth of the Blood of Christ as he? And lets hope all of us that have seen this video clip or will see it will be as emboldened, too, to become just as confident in the Lord to speak boldly the word of God without fear?
Php 1:14 And most of the brothers, having become confident in the Lord by my imprisonment, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
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Michael
Good point, but do you really think Paul was talking about rooting out error in the church through bold speaking? Or was it bolding preaching the gospel to the lost? I know. The people there must have been lost. But I didn’t catch the gospel being preached in the rebuke. God bless.
————-
Unworthy1
So you can determine this woman is not born again because she has fallen into error? She cannot be saved because she is carnal? What does she confess about Christ? If one does not walk in perfection and without sin can that person be determined to be an outsider and we should consider they need to be cast our of the kindgom? We do not address then and allow then an opportunity to see their errotr? What is your understaning of this? Must we have perfect doctrine for salvation? If so I will link you to a sesrmon of the week from a few weeks ago. I forget the guys name, but it speaks of this very issue. Don’t forget Jesus said, don’t judge by appearances, but rather make righteous judgements (my paraphase).
Seems to me you all were judging a certain street preacher on how he was addressing the lost a few posts back. I think it was called “this is not the Gospel”. I think your judgement was correct but according to your logic in this situation he was justified in addressing those people that way because they were not true followers of Christ.
What are your thoughts on that?
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Alan,
The word of God says you will know them by their fruit. God may save her at some point, but she bears no evidence she is regenerated. As for judging her, let’s stop misusing this term. Compare her works to God’s word. You also ask me if she can be saved even though she is carnal; there is no such thing as a ‘carnal Christian’. I strongly encourage you to listen to this sermon…http://defendingcontending.com/2011/08/25/sermon-of-the-week-the-carnal-christian-doctrine-by-albert-n-martin/
This woman is a child of Satan, using the word of God to fleece unsuspecting naive women. They follow her, as the video attests to, and obviously never do as the Bereans did.
In your opinion, you believe she is a Christian simply because she claims to be one? So that is all it takes to be a follower of Christ, a mere verbal profession? What about the Pharisees in Christ’s day, they claimed to believe in God, and yet Christ called them hypocrites. Why would He do this when they verbally professed to believe in God? And what about the demons, they believe Christ is the Holy One of God {Mark 1:24}; does this mean they are believers?
She rebukes this guy for speaking truth, if she were a true prophetess, why didn’t she know what was coming?
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Although she certainty appears (and probably is a false convert) to be a false “teacher” and defiantly needed to be called out, only Christ can ultimately pronounce judgement on her soul. In situations like this, and there are many, we should warn those who are “followers” and have nothing to do with those who are “leaders.” Titus 3:10
(And a thought on 1 Tim. 5:20-
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
v 20. Them that sin-whether presbyters or laymen.
rebuke before all-publicly before the Church (Mt 18:15-17; 1Co 5:9-13; Eph 5:11). Not until this “rebuke” was disregarded was the offender to be excommunicated.
Well, I presume by Her response, the rebuke WAS disregarded!)
Alan wrote:
“Seems to me you all were judging a certain street preacher on how he was addressing the lost a few posts back.”
According to Col. 4:6 “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person” this guy lacked any resemblance (IMHO) of being a follower of Christ. He gives those of us who preach Christ on the street a bad name!
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Alan,
not sure I am catching up to the understanding you have of what I posted? I believe anytime we open our mouth for the Lord on any subject, publicly or privately, we are doing one of two or both things. One, if what we are sharing is with True Believers, our words should be edifying. Another, if what we are sharing is with unbelievers, our words should be shattering their darkness with our words that are light. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, as you know. And then we could be speaking and both are present in which case we are both edifying and shattering at approximately the same time or at a future time if our words are Holy Spirit anointed seeds that need to fall into the ground, the heart of the unbeliever and die and then afterward miraculously come alive.
The overseer of all these spoken words or deeds of righteousness done for the glory of God is the Holy Spirit who can speak in our ears and hearts at any or all times, edifying us if we are a believer or unbeliever opening up our hearts with the Faith once delivered to the Saints and receive living words of Truth.
In the prison setting, there may have been other True Believers there being jailed for the Faith as Paul? That’s not clear in the chapter. What does seem to me to be clear and what my point was in the earlier comment was what Paul was experiencing by being imprisoned for the Faith, letting everyone know why he was being imprisoned was causing others who heard about what he was suffering for Christ’s sake to speak more boldly the Word of God without fear of the consequences.
In the video, what seems to be happening was a tent revival across the street from this man’s fellowship and members of that fellowship were drawn to it checking it out by attending this lady’s meetings. And apparently she and he had met and discussed theology to some degree and he hadn’t let her know his position. She apparently didn’t understand his position rather thought she would give him time to share something maybe as a professional courtesy after laying on him a prophecy that would lend to her validity and validity to her beliefs, which backfired on her! Being one bold guy he took that opportunity to address first and foremost those members of his fellowship letting them know his beliefs and secondarily generally letting her and everyone else who were her followers there know what he thought of their beliefs?
When I first saw this video at another blog I commented that the reaction of those front row ladies could have been something similar to reactions we read about in the book of Acts when the True Gospel message was articulated clearly. One verse comes to mind to end with awaiting of course any response you might have afterwards?
Act 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.
Act 14:2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Act 14:3 So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Act 14:4 But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles.
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Unworthy is correct. We can certainly recognize them by their fruit… Jesus said so in Matthew 7:15-20. If we could not know a person is a wolf then why did Jesus say we could?
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Alan,
You said ‘Seems to me you all were judging a certain street preacher on how he was addressing the lost a few posts back.’ I do not know if you were addressing this towards me, but I never even commented on the post you mentioned. I also wanted to clarify I was not judging this woman based on her appearance, I am not judging her period. I am warning, as the gentleman did in the video, this woman is not a representative of God. Here is an excerpt from the link provided under the video that goes into more detail about what happened..
“However, there was a transition after her message into various fraudulent acts of “ministering in the “Holy Spirit” that range from her laying hands on people who would respond by gyrating, shaking, screaming, flapping arms like being in a strong wind, knocking over chairs, throwing themselves down (not falling) on the floor. She prophesied over 3 girls that she said were seated where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were, that would be getting married in June – she acted as if she knew nothing of their personal lives, but one of them was the attorney for the ministry that I’d met the night before – the other two were her friends. She said angels were there and that there could be voices of angels heard in her music because they followed her wherever she went. Then she scared a 3 year old little girl when she called her mother up – girl in arms, and began laying hands all over her body (the Mom’s).
Finally, I thought it was over, but she walked up to me where I was seated on the front row, and began “prophesying”. She said, “Young man spit your gum out and face me”. I got up (probably should have just walked out), and she began telling me how I thought I had come as a peacemaker, but was really there because God had used the hecklers to get me to her tent because He had something to give me through her. Then she went on and on saying all kinds of stuff, including that I said or thought that her ministry was a work of God, and that she was doing good and trying to help people. That was a lie. I never led her to believe any such thing.”
I encourage you to read the full story http://blog.carm.org/2012/05/pastor-dayna-ministries/
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Thank you Rev Limiter:
You made the point I was trying to bring out. According to Col. 4:6 “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.
Unworthy1 implied that our admonition to always have graious speech doesn’t apply in this situation because the woman was not a true follower of Christ. Why does the story about how Jesus handled the adulterous woman brought before him by the Pharisees for judgement keep coming to mind?
I have a couple of scriptures to share with you on this that you probably know well. But I must get ready to go out now. I’ll be back later.
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Alan,
Where did I do as you say, “Unworthy1 implied that our admonition to always have graious speech doesn’t apply in this situation because the woman was not a true follower of Christ.”? No place in my responses did I even say this woman is not worthy of being gracious, you are taking this all out of proportion. Your initial comment concerned taking this woman in private to correct her, which I responded wasn’t necessary because she is not a true believer, she is a false prophetess. How it spiraled to the point you are claiming is unknown to me, at this point I bow out of this fiasco before it gets even worse…
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Alan said–“Why does the story about how Jesus handled the adulterous woman brought before him by the Pharisees for judgement keep coming to mind?”
The reason why the adulterous woman was treated differently by Jesus is because she was not willfully a perverse false teacher.
Jesus was perspicuous when he said how we are to treat specifically false teachers and he clearly gave us the model of how we are to treat Sinners. There is a difference in the 2 women…
Sometimes we are to be stern and harsh also… Take the time when Paul berated Peter in front of everyone. Was this not appropriated since it was not “gracious speech?” No not at all.
We can all pick and choose Scripture that supports our view not realizing that there has to be considerations of each situation and what all really is involved. On the surface it does seem as though this man was “harsh” to the lady. but then again look at Jesus and how he always was with FALSE TEACHERS…
in ALL situations a genuine filled with the love of God Christian has COMPASSION on ALL–period..
Our attitude should be the same as Christ’s was, GENUINE and full of compassion. Whether we expose false teachers and wolves or rebuke a sister or brother in Sin or show love and kindness to sinners who are unbelievers, our motives should always be for them to know the truth and be moved to repentance.
Jesus did so after he scalded the Pharisees in Matthew chapter 23. He showed that a person can be very sharp, stern and what looks to be ungracious and unloving to the world and STILL your heart is truly sincere and filled with compassion and full of grace—
Mat 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.”
Sometimes we must “rebuke people sharply”-Titus 1:13
and we are to -Eph 5:11 “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.”
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Linda:
“Jesus was perspicuous when he said how we are to treat specifically false teachers and he clearly gave us the model of how we are to treat Sinners.”
What were Jesus’s teachings on how we treat false teachers?
Unworthy1:
Here is where I picked up the implication to it was OK to do this in front of everyone without a gracious appoach. I apologize if you are offended by reading your statement incorrectly.
You wrote:
Alan,
You state “Nevertheless, wouldn’t the scriptual approach to the situation within the body of Christ be to confront the person in private first and allow them to repent? Take the issue before the elders with witnesses. Do any of you point out the sins of others in public?”
This would be necessary if the woman were a true follower of Christ, however, she isn’t. Doreen nailed it when she brought to light 1 Timothy 5:20. This man handled the situation quite biblically.
So I assumed your meaning was we did not need to treat this women with more respect because you consider here not a true follower of Christ. Again I apologize for misreading what wrote.
BTW It’s probably a moot point but the scripture Doreen used was out of context. I am surprised none bothered to correct her.
1 Timothy 5:17-20
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”[b] 19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.
I didn’t do an extensive search but neither did I find a version that state “Those who are sinning…” any one who”, all translations I looked at referred to elders who are sinning”.
Still working on a few scriptures to send you concering this. Gotta write it up on a word processor then paste into the comment section. It is so much easier and I can spell check. Mayber by tomorrow.
Anyone want to take a guess what scriptures I am thinking of and why they are relavent?
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Alan,
Did you go to the link provided with the video and read what transpired? You seem to be hung up on my calling this woman an unregenerate and think she should have been approached in private, had you read the article you could have avoided a lot of misunderstanding and misguided commentary.
I strongly urge you to read the story before you comment further…
As for Doreen’s posting 1 Timothy 5:20…
Them that sin reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear. -ASV
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. – ESV
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. – KJV
Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. – NASB
Those sinning, reprove before all, that the others also may have fear; – YLT
Commentary from Albert Barnes on this passage – ” That have been proved to have committed sin – referring probably to the elders mentioned in the previous verse, but giving the direction so general a form that it might be applicable to others.”
Matthew Henry’s commentary on the same passage – “those that sin rebuke before all; that is, thou needest not be so tender of other people, but rebuke them publicly.” Or “those that sin before all rebuke before all, that the plaster may be as wide as the wound, and that those who are in danger of sinning by the example of their fall may take warning by the rebuke given them for it, that others also may fear.” Observe, (1.) Public scandalous sinners must be rebuked publicly: as their sin has been public, and committed before many, or at least come to the hearing of all, so their reproof must be public, and before all. (2.) Public rebuke is designed for the good of others, that they may fear, as well as for the good of the party rebuked; hence it was ordered under the law that public offenders should receive public punishment, that all Israel might hear, and fear, and do no more wickedly.”
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unworthy1:
Welcome back to the fiasco 🙂 Just kidding around. Happy Father’s Day if you are a father.
you wrote:
As for Doreen’s posting 1 Timothy 5:20… Them that sin reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear. -ASV As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. – ESV Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. – KJV Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. – NASB Those sinning, reprove before all, that the others also may have fear; – YLT
Like I said, the verse is taken out of context. The NIV states elders, not anyone.
Anyway, here is a thought concerning the use of this verse as proof text. If we can apply this verse to this situation and it applies to all, not just elders and church leadership, then should we not apply to ALL who sin? Then all would need to rebuke each other in front of all. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends. Proverbs 17:9
I will check out the link with video, thank you for pointing that out to me. Have you thought of any other verses that may apply to this situation?
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Not to upset the apple cart of picking on crazy false teachers, but I find it ironic that he says those at calvary chapel may know him as “Pastor Scott”. I wonder what an uproar some of the reformed brethren would be in if someone walked into a service at calvary chapel and said “Jesus says you are acting like a pharisee when you use religous titles.”
Matthew 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant.
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Alan—False teaching is sin and we know this. If the man (in this case woman) has an identifying mark of a false teacher, Jesus warns NOT to confront him privately (Matthew 7:3-6). False teachers are to be dealt with publicly. Jesus did this in both Matthew 23 and Luke 11. We are to follow the Lord Jesus.
As I’ve said before Paul named Peter publicly. Peter was guilty of unscriptural practice. “But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed … But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?” (Gal. 2:11-14). The whole issue revolved around salvation by the law or by grace. When the integrity and purity of the gospel is at stake, then we have no choice when it comes to the matter of exposing error and naming names.
Paul named Demas for loving the world. “For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world” (II Tim. 4:10). Those who forsake the cause of Christ for worldly living and pleasures should be named and exposed.
Paul named Hymenaeus and Alexander. Paul told Timothy to “war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some have put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme ” (I Tim. 1: 18-20). God’s true servants should war a good warfare, and name those who have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the saints. Paul is not here discussing the faith of salvation but the faith as a system of doctrine. These men had made shipwreck of it and Paul exposed them and called their names.
Paul named Hymenaeus and Philetus. He told Timothy to “study” that he might be able to “rightly” divide “the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth as canker. of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some ” (11 Tim. 2:15-18). False doctrine overthrows the faith of some, so those who are proclaiming it must be exposed.
All these are examples of exposing error and people publicly for all to see and know. After almost 2000years the names of these people are known by all who have read the Bible. This is not some private cuddling with people
When Jesus said “beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves,, He certainly was using metaphoric language. But the very important TRUTH is we are to treat false teachers etc just like a WOLF. We don’t flirt with wolves and we don’t coddle wolves. WE don’t pet wolves and try and befriend them neither. We should WARN the FLOCK of these wolves. That means that if there’s a WOLF you would NOT keep it private but would let everyone know who is a wolf so that they will avoid them and be kept SAFE…
Please consider the words and warnings about false teachers Jesus uses in Matthew chapter 7 and take them seriously. This woman is a false teacher. It’s not about being kind to her or anyone who is teaching false teachings, it’s about being KIND to lost souls who are on their way to hell. Who really loves these people this woman (false teachers) or Jesus? Christians are always going to be viewed as “unkind” and “hateful”… But 2 John 9 says we can know that if a person is sharing another doctrine that is not the doctrine of Christ that he or she does not have GOD — 2Jo 1:9 “Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.”
We are not required to coddle people who are obstinate and who continue to be threats to the greater body of people misleading them to an eternity in hell. It’s not about personally liking or disliking someone. It’s about judging their message according to the Scripture-that’s our stand.
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Yes Alan I have; concerning false teachers, Paul writes “For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith”. Titus 1:10-13 Drop down to verse 16, “They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.”
Matthew Henry comments on these verses, “False teachers are described. Faithful ministers must oppose such in good time, that their folly being made manifest, they may go no further They had a base end in what they did; serving a worldly interest under pretence of religion: for the love of money is the root of all evil. Such should be resisted, and put to shame, by sound doctrine from the Scriptures. Shameful actions, the reproach of heathens, should be far from Christians; falsehood and lying, envious craft and cruelty, brutal and sensual practices, and idleness and sloth, are sins condemned even by the light of nature.”
You could also include Romans 16:17-18, 2 Cor. 11:12-15, Eph. 4:14, 2 Thess. 2:10-12, 1 Tim. 6:3-5, 2 Peter 2:1-2, 1 John 4:1 to name a few. Also 1 Tim. 2:12, if this woman claims to be a source of biblical truth and teaches this to male believers, she is violating 1 Tim. 1:12.
I think you originally commented prematurely, you saw a 2 minute video and commented on comments rather than read the story behind the video to get the full picture of what took place. This has led you to pre-suppose some dangerous views on other comments here, for example, “So you can determine this woman is not born again because she has fallen into error? She cannot be saved because she is carnal? What does she confess about Christ?”
Had you read the story from the link provided under the video, these questions would never have been asked. {I do hope you listened to the sermon I recommended here at DefCon by Albert Martin concerning ‘carnal Christians’, it is well worth the time}.
I also remind you to consider the command for brotherly love, and not to purposely stir up dissension and make false accusations. We must remember to honor one another, in so doing, we honor our Lord. Perhaps, as I have already stated, if you would have read the story first, you could have avoided several of your accusatory comments here. Forgiveness is also a command of our Lord, to forgive others and overlook offenses should be a trait we desire to have and a command we desire to obey. Prayerfully, we can all move on and let this thread rest.
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Linda and Unworthy1
Thank you for your replies. I apologize for taking so long to get back to you on why I still stand on my original comment which is: I disagree that Pastor Rodriguez handled the situation in a scriptural manner. Work was insane last week and I am just now able to take the time to respond.
Note: If you email application does not replicate the carriage returns so that paragraphs are spaced properly, open the website to read the comment. Trying to maintain the thought flow without paragraphs is almost impossible on a long post.
There are a couple of things concerning your last comments that I need to point out before I present the scripture I said I would last week .
First Linda, I do not see in any of the scriptures you presented in your comment the claim that “Jesus was perspicuous when he said how we are to treat specifically false teachers and he clearly gave us the model of how we are to treat Sinners. There is a difference in the 2 women…”
Its not even worth the effort to rebuff the examples you gave because I see nothing there relevant to this discussion. I would like to point out though that in Matt. 23 is Jesus rebuking the teachers of the law, not false teachers. He was rebuking them for their hypocrisy, not their false teaching. He told the people to obey their teachings. As Jesus said,
Matthew 23:2-4
New International Version (NIV)
2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
I doubt any of you would say we should obey the teachings of false teachers in this world under the covenant of salvation by grace through faith. But Jesus said to obey the teachers of the law. He was not talking about false teachers at that time, he was talking about phony religious people.
Now to Unworthy1. Thank you for your kind admonishment to read the story, which I did. All I can say is the story just confirms what was obvious in the Holy Spirit when I saw the video. I will elaborate on that when I explain the scriptures that apply to this situation. BTW, I was looking and hoping for some other scriptures from you, in particular. I think we are all well aware there will be false teachers in the church, especially in the final days. There is no question about that.
First, let me say, I am not saying the women is not a false teacher. Clearly she is because a woman cannot have one of the 5M ministries of Ephesians 4:11. And we both know there are hundreds of women who claim to be prophets and are not, and are false. That was obvious before even watching video.
Second, all I said was that Pastor Rodriguez handled it in an unscriptural manner and that is all. I did not say he was mean, or rude, or even that he was wrong . I do not fault him for doing what he did. He was just unscriptural and I believe we should give the Pastor the benefit of the doubt and agree with him and the conviction he was sensing in the Holy Spirit.
You and your fellow contenders and defenders teach that we must be faithful to correct error when we see it. I believe we need more people with the zeal of Pastor Rodriguez, but I believe it is wrong to put a rubber stamp on how he handled the situation just because we like seeing the false teachers and phonies going down.
If we do not take care, there is a potential of us promoting and encouraging others to act in a way that is not taught by Jesus or the New Testament apostles and teachers (i.e., the scripture). This is especially true when those who are or may be babes in Christ are present. To act in a manner that is not scriptural, and was not taught by Jesus will quite likely result in confusion and pandemonium (which it did in this case), rather than in the peaceful fruit of the Holy Spirit bringing correction, restoration and healing to the situation.
Here are the scriptures that the Holy Spirit is speaking to me concerning this situation and I believe the principles behind these teachings apply to it.
Matthew 13:24-30
New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Then skip to:
Matthew 13:36-43
New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
All I will say here is that Pastor Rodriguez should have approached the elders who were over this woman to confront them first. But I will concede there may not have been any church body to whom she was accountable to because she was holding itineray tent meetings. But it is clear that Jesus warned us not to pull up the weeds (tares) but let them grow alongside the wheat, least we tear accidentally tear up the true wheat in the process.
Here is how the Holy Spirit has taught me to handle a situation like this.
Galatians 6:1-5
New International Version (NIV)
Doing Good to All
6 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load.
This should need no explanation. We are to restore, not tear down.
And finally this. From the CARM blog (the story behind it).
“I came out at the end of her Saturday night service and spoke with her, and her manager Dennis about their perspective on what had occurred. They felt that they were being heckled. I asked what they were preaching in order to get a better idea about their ministry, and explained to them that we, as a Gospel preaching church, would be extremely sensitive to a ministry that came off as strange as hers. She then claimed to be preaching the same message I described to her: that Christ came in the flesh to die upon a cross for the sins of man; that he was buried and rose again 3 days later; and that people are commanded by God the Father to turn from sin and put their faith in His Son’s finished work on the cross in order to be saved; and finally that there is no other way of salvation.
Pay particular attention to this part of the story.
She claimed that this was her message too, but that she also believed in miracles – which I agreed are still done today according to the will of God. I shared with her that if she would give me some materials to look over to her affirm her claims about her message, I would come back the next day and say a quick word to people from our Church about the need to refrain from being disruptive, disrespectful, and to hold any questions or disagreements until after her service to be voiced with her or her leaders. After some more discussion she said that would be acceptable to her.”
The woman claimed to believe the same gospel message as Pastor Rodriguez, and Pastor R said he agreed with her. Pastor R said he would come back and give a quick word to the people about being disruptive and disrepectful. He also clearly stated he would hold any questions or disagreement until after her service to be voiced with her and her leaders.
THAT IS THE SCRIPTURAL THING TO DO!!! Hold it till after the service and confront the elders.
Some commenters say the woman hijacked Pastor R. If you read the story objectively, clearly Pastor R hijacked her and broke his word. His first instinct in the Spirit to get up and walk out was the right one and would have spoken volumes against the women instead of creating a chaotic situation.
Here is what Pastor R said:
My greatest desire is to see God’s people warned, but I don’t feel I did things perfectly. Here’s why: I knew the right thing to do was to seek my Senior Pastor’s approval, but as a matter of convenience I did not. He is a man of God, and would have helped find a more godly way of approaching this, but in a moment of passion I acted and entrapped myself. Please don’t misunderstand, I believe once in the circumstance the worse thing I could have done is simply remained quiet, but I just feel as though Jesus would have done it differently.
Why would you doubt what the man is sensing the Holy Spirit was telling him?
Now to one other point I made that Unworthy1 objected to and I think misunderstood.
As the CARM blog story said, the woman stated she believed the gospel as Pastor Rodriguez explained it. So, was she born again, even though she may have been teaching doctrine that is not sound? And if she is born again yet decieved, do we strike here down and rejoice that we are faithfully upholding the truth of God. I say we need to be very careful as Paul told the Galations to “watch yourselves.”
Here is why.
Mark 3:20-30
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Accused by His Family and by Teachers of the Law
20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”
That is all I have for you tonight. God bless and may the peace of God be with you in all you do.
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Alan-“Matt. 23 is Jesus rebuking the teachers of the law, not false teachers. He was rebuking them for their hypocrisy, not their false teaching. He told the people to obey their teachings. As Jesus said,”–
Oh yes he was rebuking false teachers. And to say — as you have even partially admitted he was not rebuking “their false teaching” is a contradiction. (False teachings equals false teachers). this is the very reason why they are false teachers in the first place. Your whole statement is a false dichotomy. Why in the world would Jesus rebuke them for hypocrisy and not their false teachings and then you turn around and say Jesus told the people to obey their teachings??? Oh my goodness Allen Jesus would NOT tell people to obey false teachings…
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Jesus said to obey when they “sit in Moses’ seat” — when they expound the Law faithfully. The fact that they were hypocrites did not give people a right to disobey when they proclaimed truth faithfully. Jesus was certainly NOT giving a blanket endorsement to their teachings — elsewhere, He rebuked them for replacing the Word of God with the traditions of men.
We can’t isolate one statement Jesus makes (about obeying) from the others where He specifically rebukes them, or the incidents where He intentionally violates their traditions, and endorses His disciples doing so. For Him to say obey everything they say, and then not do so Himself, would be the exact problem of hypocrisy that He was mentioning. So we have to look at the command to obey in context and see what He is really saying there.
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Alan,
The parable of the weeds in Matthew 13 is not a reference to false teachers, it refers to Satan planting ‘false converts’ among true believers to try and hinder God’s work. As Dr. James Boice states in his book on the parables of Jesus, ‘Christ’s prohibition on trying to separate ‘weeds from the grain’ before the final judgment does NOT apply to church discipline. So the church, in spite of Christ’s warning, should try to be as pure as possible’. How do we know this? Because the Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 5:12-13, ‘For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.’ Again, Dr. Boice rightly comments the point of the parable ‘the Devil is mixing counterfeit Christians in among true Christians to hinder God’s work. We should be on our guard not to be taken in, and we should not be surprised if the Devil’s people show up in strange places or eventually show their true colors by abandoning Christianity altogether. The church is impure, we cannot always distinguish between the wheat and the tares in this age. As a result, we should examine ourselves as to whether we are true children of God. And we should be careful to make our calling and election sure.’ In other words, do not be alarmed when false converts fill the church, but do not be complacent either.
As for Matthew 13:30, ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” Commentary from Gill states ‘ not that men of openly scandalous lives are to be tolerated in churches; they are to be withdrawn from, and put away; nor men of known, avowed, heretical principles; such, after the first and second admonition, are to be rejected: yet there may be such in churches, not altogether agreeable in principle and practice, whose character and situation may be such, that there is no removing them without offending some truly gracious, useful persons, in whose affections they stand, who may be tempted, by such a step, to leave their communion; and so cannot be done without a considerable prejudice to the church. The scope of the parable, and the design of our Lord in it, are chiefly to be attended to; which are to show, that a pure and perfect church cannot be expected in the present state of things; and that saints should not be immoderately uneasy, but patiently bear such exercises, until Christ’s time is come to relieve them, when the tares and chaff shall be separated from the wheat.’
Christ Himself called the Pharisees ‘hypocrites’ and pronounced several woes upon them {Matthew 23:13-16, 23, 25, 27, 29}; that is how he dealt with false teachers.
Again, this pastor in the video did nothing unbiblical, and he was protecting his flock because some of them were attending this false prophetess’s tent meetings.
You have yet to show us from scripture how this pastor mishandled the situation, other than taking verses and parables out of context to make them fit your opinion.
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I stand on my presentation of the truth as it is revealed to me in the Holy Spirit. So I guess we have only to agree that we disagree. I do not use commentaries for interpretaton of scriptures, only the Holy Spirit. He reveals to me all truth as promised by Jesus as he explained before he was crucified why he was sending him (the Holy Spirit) to live inside us .
So I have one last question. It is from my comment last night. Do you say this account of what happened as told in the CARM blog story did not happen?
From my post last night:
‘The woman claimed to believe the same gospel message as Pastor Rodriguez, and Pastor R said he agreed with her. Pastor R said he would come back and give a quick word to the people about being disruptive and disrepectful. He also clearly stated he would hold any questions or disagreement until after her service to be voiced with her and her leaders.’
THAT IS THE SCRIPTURAL THING TO DO!!! Hold it till after the service and confront the elders.
Some commenters say the woman hijacked Pastor R. If you read the story objectively, clearly Pastor R hijacked her and broke his word. His first instinct in the Spirit to get up and walk out was the right one and would have spoken volumes against the women instead of creating a chaotic situation.
Thanks for the discussion Unworthy1
May the peace of God be with you in your walk with Christ.
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Alan, commentaries are not bad if they come from men who’ve proven to be true to the word. Gill and M. Henry are two of my favorites from the past. Both have been proven by their stance for truth to be solid in their teachings. They can only be solid if the Holy Spirit were their teacher. I do not use them to ‘interpret’ Scripture, it is insight into the meaning as they’ve studied the word of God almost as long as I’ve been alive. There is nothing wrong with learning from Godly men, true pastors give their commentary as they expound God’s truth every Sunday from the pulpit. My pastor quotes from Martyn Lloyd Jones on occasion and I have no problem with that. Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, Thomas Watson, J.C. Ryle. Tozer, Pink and others are a blessing to the body of Christ and should not be shunned because one refuses to use commentary. Who do you think has taught these men? They had the same teacher all true believers do…the Holy Spirit.
So it’s okay to use commentary from another blog, like CARM? Seems kind of silly to say you don’t use commentary, then post something from another blog to shore up your view.
Good bye to you as well.
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