This morning, as I listened to Greater Vision sing “Just One More Soul,” I began to reflect once again on the message of that song. It was the perfect encouragement I needed, as I prepare for another year of conferences and ministry. For those who don’t know, I have the blessing of traveling with my brother as he ministers to people and challenges them to examine their worldview and make sure everything they do is from a Biblical perspective.
Although he has done some street witnessing, prison ministry, etc., most of our outreach is to professing Christians, and those are often the ones I have the greatest burden for. In our travels, we meet a lot of neat people, some of whom are on fire for the Lord and are striving to raise their children to have that same fervor. But many seem to be stressed and depressed, weighed down with the things of this world. Then there are those who are just biding their time, waiting for the service to be over so they can go get together with their friends or go home and watch TV.
It seems like so many today don’t really care what the Bible teaches. “If it feels good, do it” still permeates our society. If you want to watch movies filled with sex and violence, that’s fine. It’s just a movie. If you’re tired of your wife and you find someone else who will make you “happy,” go for it. But let me interject here that nowhere in the Bible does it say that God wants us to be happy. It does say He wants us to be holy, and that is missing from the lives of so many who claim to be saved.
Hebrews 6:4-8 says, “For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.”
I believe this speaks to those who say, “Lord, Lord, did we not do all kinds of things in Your name?” And, yet, the end result is that they did not live for Him on earth, so He had to turn them away from the gates of Heaven.
As I write this, my spirit is heavy. I see a world lost and dying, and I feel helpless to do anything about it. The truth is, however, that I can pray. I can live a life that pleases God so that He can use me for His glory. I can be faithful in the little things He has entrusted me with so that He can eventually trust me with bigger things. I can draw nearer to Him every day so that His voice becomes ever clearer. The answer is not to give up, but to press on with more determination than before.
God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, and this repentance must begin in the house of God. You may have sung as a child, “Lord, send a revival and let it begin with me.” May that be our prayer today. If the church begins to see true revival, I believe it will spread to the rest of the nation. Lord, hasten that day!
Christ Alone Wyoming 
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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No one but the Holy Spirit can stir the souls of saints to get up and go forth. But people walking down the aisle, as that song puts it, are not getting saved by doing so. That’s Finney’s new methods at work, in most churches and in that song.
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blessings for your burden and passion for lost, the deceived and the lukewarm. Do carry on with your ministry.
I have also pointed many to Matt. 7: 21as it is a hard and fast truth for the false convert.
the merely religious.
As for Heb. 6 I would point out the readers once again that God’s grammar is perfect. Observe His use of pronouns leading up to 4-8. The author uses us and we in 1-3 and long before that, then he suddenly shifts to they and those in 4-8. there must be at least 2 different people groups in mind otherwise God’s grammar erred.
Regarding salvation we need to begin with Gods perspective rather beginning from mans perspective. Jesus promised that HE WOULD LOSE NONE THAT THE FATHER HAD GIVEN HIM.
With salvation, unless the Lord build the house those who labor, labor in vain.
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Women Speaking In Church & Women Preachers
I Cor 14:34-35 it is sinful!
A woman claiming to be called by the Holy Spirit is either lying or wilfully ignorant/mistaken, because the Holy Spirit has already stated clearly that he doesn’t want women to Speak in the Church Assemblies.
I Cor 14:34-35 / Acts 2:17 how do we reconcile them?:
I Cor 14:23,34-35 forbids a woman preaching “in the church.” Acts 2:17 – prophesying must have been outside the church
Women did preach, that is, teach the Bible:
Acts 2:17, Acts 21:9, I Cor 11:5, Acts 8:4…But Not In The Church
I Cor 14:34-35 – they cannot even speak in the church
This verse forbids more than just preaching the sermon -> making announcements, song selections (in the assembly itself).
some say that I Cor 14:34-35 only applied to the prophets wives?:
1. the “your” of v.34 is 2nd person plural and applies to the brethren as a whole (I Cor 1:1-2, 14:26); the 3rd person singular (“him”) is used to refer to the tongue speakers and prophets (vs.27-30)
2. whoever the “your” refers to in v.34, v.35 generalizes the application to all women
I Tim 2:11-12 cannot teach/lead a class that includes men
Notice that the passage applies “every where” (v.8, 9-10) -> it also forbids a woman from teaching a college math class, or from being the mayor, president, etc..
Almost all churches allow women to speak/preach in the church:
II Jn vs.9-11 it is a sin to do it, and a sin to go along with it
Rev 2:5 remove candlestick
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“I Cor 14:34-35 – they cannot even speak in the church
This verse forbids more than just preaching the sermon -> making announcements, song selections (in the assembly itself).”
James,
This is a good example of the problems we face when trying to fit NT doctrine into institutional christianity. Despite the greek lesson you gave, your entire supposition is faulty and so goes your argument. In a modern institutional religious program you can make up your own laws like ‘no sisters can request a song or the candlestick will be removed’ and it fits in well enough. However God’s instructions in the NT are written for NT church gatherings. In such gatherings it is common to spend the day together fellowshipping, a love feast, singing, teaching, praying, prophesying, etc. When you break free from the ‘going to church religious program on Sunday’ mindset and start having NT fellowship it becomes a nonsensical notion that sisters can’t request to sing a song or speak a word for 10 hours of fellowshipping.
Readers beware. Don’t error on the left by way of feminism and disregard God’s instructions for sisters in the home and assembly. Don’t error on the right and make up fleshy rules beyond what God’s word clearly says either. If a sister is fulfilling her role in the church and not taking on teaching or eldership authority over the brothers that is a good place to be. To stop sisters from praying, prophesying, singing, etc is unbiblical and pure religious flesh. Again, it fits well in the institutional church system though because everyone is already shutup in pews… what’s a few extra unbiblical traditions placed on the sisters anyhow.
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Sony,Mark,Manfred,
Another of my controversial posts must of ended up in the spam heap… I am starting to get a complex about it 🙂
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No need to get a complex, Jim. A plain ol’ simplex will suffice for this mystery 🙂
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fleebabylon, thanks for your reply to James. Was just getting ready to say just about the same thing when I noticed you were developing a bad case of spamplex. LOL
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I had to go back and read my post to see what I said about women preaching. I’m not finding anywhere that I mentioned that, unless the comment is directed at me. Thank you for your post, fleebabylon. I’m glad it was recovered from the spam heap. I enjoy reading everyone’s comments, even when I don’t reply.
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So we have rightly chosen to assemble together in a church of sound doctrine, teaching and preaching. The word is faithfully rightly divided and spoken line upon line.
So what?
Professional educators have proven that the lecture method is the least effective method of educating. What is a sermon if not a lecture. What is not put into practice is soon forgotten. On average the typical sermon is all but completely forgotten in 6 days or less. Educators also agree that apart from written tests it is impossible to measure apprehension/comprehension.
Does anyone want surgeon who only sat through lectures on surgery but had never held a scalpel? No, and neither does sitting through lectures make anyone a mature Christian able to rightly teach and defend the faith Titus 1:9.
Let me illustrate. the teacher of a bible study class handed out a true/false test. The 15 questions were all various forms of salvation by faith plus works. Every answer was of course false. Only 2 out of 2 dozen got a perfect score. Many had missed 4 or more. The correct answer was obvious to any and all who properly understand biblical soteriology. The congregation failed the test only because the elders failed the flock. The most essential of essentials was never inculcated into the flock.
What else is absent from the lecture pulpit, discernment apologetics. In the best of churches the majority would be completely oblivious to current heretical movements books and proponents. The elders seem to confuse tithing and membership and committee busy work as proof that the flock is mature in the faith and well fed.
The pulpit, not the so called classroom, should be the primary source of teaching hard truths. Jesus and the Apostles primarily TAUGHT. Rarely did they merely preach.
Read again Ezek. 33: 1-6. if the watchman fails to warn of danger he will bear the blood guilt on his own head. Elder/pastor/teacher you must bear the burden of the watchman.
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It is a Shame for Women to Speak in the Church
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 reads, Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. The purpose of this article is to deal with two misunderstandings concerning this passage that exist among some members of GOD church.
The first misunderstanding is the idea that this passage teaches that women are not to speak even in the separated Bible classes at the church building. First of all, this passage says nothing about a church building; if women cannot speak at classes at the building, then they cannot speak at classes that are at homes either. The truth is that this passage is not dealing with separated classes either at the building or at a members home. It is dealing with a situation that Paul calls in the church (assembly) (1 Corinthians 14:35), a time when the whole church be come together into one place (1 Corinthians 14:23). When separated Bible classes are going on, the whole church is not together in one place, they are not in what Paul calls the assembly. If Christians are in the assembly when they are in the separated classes, then they are violating 1 Corinthians 14:27,30-31, which teaches that there is to be only one speaker at a time in the church, because in the separated Bible classes there is more than one person speaking at a time, there is one speaker for each class. The conclusion is that it is not wrong for women to speak in a bible class situation (Priscilla in Acts 18:26 is an approved example of one who did), it is only wrong for women to speak in the church.
On the other hand, many denominations have woman preachers in direct opposition to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Many Christians can understand that it is wrong for a woman to do the sermon, but they fail to see that this passage condemns any speaking done by a woman, even when not leading the assembly, for example, announcements, asking a question, etc. Mr. Thayer defines the word silence in verse 34 as to keep silence, hold one’s peace. This is not the same word as that found in 1 Timothy 2:11,12, Acts 22:2, and 2 Thessalonians 3:12…that with quietness they work, which Mr. Thayer defines as quietness. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 teaches that a woman cannot speak in the assembly, period. The passage does not say that a woman can speak as long as she is under obedience. It teaches that she is not to speak at all, she is to be in silence, and if she does speak, she is not being obedient. The word here for silence is the same Greek word as in verses 28 (translated silence) and 30 (translated…hold his peace). Does verse 28 mean that if there is no interpreter, that the man could speak the tongue as long as he did it in a way that would not be leading the assembly? Does verse 30 mean that prophets could speak at the same time as long as only one was speaking in a way that led the assembly? If the answer to both these questions is no (and it is), why would verse 34 be any different? The subjects of verses 28 and 30 could not speak at all under “the circumstances under consideration.” Neither can the subject of verses 34-35 (women) speak at all under the circumstances under consideration there, the circumstances being, the assembly, or when “the whole church be come together into one place” (verse 23). Notice that a woman is forbidden even to ask a question in the assembly. Certainly if it were so that she could speak as long as she didn’t take the lead, she could ask a question. Asking a question is normally (and in this case) taking the position of learner or follower, not leader. The conclusion is that a woman cannot speak at all in the assembly (singing would be the only Bible given exception to that), even when she is only speaking to make an announcement or ask a question.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 means exactly what it says. A woman is not to speak “in the church” or assembly. This doesn’t mean that she cannot speak outside the assembly like in a Bible class, neither does it mean that she can speak in the assembly as long as she doesn’t preach the “sermon” or “lead the assembly.” The Bible says, “Let your women keep silence in the churches.”
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Are there any biblically sound churches in California?
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The foundation for all of these verses is all about authority or rather usurping authority over men. What is the Apostles stated reason for forbidding women to have authority in the church over men. The Apostles explicitly explains that the reason goes clear back to the original sin. It has nothing what so ever to do with social norms of either today or the day it was written. Eve was deceived, but Adam was not deceived. This then enters the arena of federal headship. This is every bit as much a part of the curse as giving birth in pain. Do saved women still give birth in pain? Then even saved women in the church cannot have a position of authority over men. There can never be any women elders. The fellowship is commanded to submit to the authority of the elders. If only elders can be pastors/teachers of the entire congregation then women cannot hold those positions.
The authority issue can never be explained away apart from denying original sin. Original sin cannot be denied apart from rejecting sola scriptura.
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I do know of a few. What part of California?
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Finnegan,
For those who desire to, ” live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”, as Jesus commanded, ” rightly dividing the WORD” is paramount. Galations 3:28 is concerned only about soteriology. it is not speaking of or even hinting of anything concerning authority. By your illogical contention born again grade school children are also qualified teach and to exercise authority. There are no TRUMP verses, for all scripture is, “God breathed”. ( my verse trumps your verse) Sound hermeneutics leads to harmonizing scripture. It does not lead to refuting or trumping or conflicting with itself.
Jesus also said that if we love Him we will keep His commands. He commanded us to live by the word. If you do not want to live by the WORD then perhaps you love someone or something more than Jesus. This would include both women elders and pastors and the men who allow it.
If those of us who know scripture so literally are, sinister bullies, then so was the Apostle who wrote them as well as God who breathed them.
The bottom line for all who advocate for sex equality concerning authority is nothing less than…….. hath God said ye shall not……..
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Different Roles Of Men & Women
Roles & Not Roles Of Men
Men Are Head Of The House
Men Have Short Hair
Men Pray Lifting Up Holy Hands
Men Cannot Bear Children
Men Are To Be Leaders
Men Can Speak In Church Assembly & Congregational Meetings
Only Men Can Be Elders In Church
Only Men Can Be Deacons
Men Can Teach Men & Women
Men Cannot Wear Head Coverings When Praying
Men Can Be Preachers In Church
Men Are The Stronger Vessel
Men Are Not Made For Women
Men Are Made In The Image, Likeness & Glory Of GOD
Men Are Not To Cover His Head When Praying
Man Not From Woman
Man Not Made And Created For Woman
Roles & Not Roles Of Women
Women Are To Be Homemakers
Women Are To Always Have Long Hair (Her Glory)
Women Are To Pray Quietly And Silently
Women Are To Bare Children
Women Are To Be Submissive To Men And Not Leaders
Women Cannot Speak In Church Meetings/Assemblies
Women Cannot Be Elders
Women Cannot Be Deacons
Women Cannot Teach Men In Church Meetings
Women Must Wear Veils/Head Covering When Praying
Cannot Be Preachers In Church When Men Are Present
Women Are Weaker Vessel
Women Are Made For Man To Be A Helpmeet & Helpmate
Women Made In Image And Glory Of Man
Women Are To Cover And Veil Her Head And Wear A Head Covering When She Prays
Woman Is The Glory Of Man – Man’s Glory
Woman Came From Man
Woman Was Made And Created For Man
Men & Women Are Equal In Salvation, But They Are Not Equal In Roles! Galatians chapter 3 verse 28; Colossians chapter 3 verses 11 thru 25; Romans 3 verse 22; Romans 10 verses 12 thru 21 and 1st Corinthians 12 verse 13. Men & Women Have Different Roles.
1st John chapter 5 verses 2 thru 4 How do we know that we love God’s children? We know because we love God and we obey his commands. Loving God means Obeying his Commands. And God’s commands are not too hard for us, because everyone who is a child of God has the power to win against the world.
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Northern California
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Consider the Trinity. All 3 are ontological equals in every respect. At the same time in the economy of the Trinity all 3 have different roles. All 3 for all eternity remain in their respective roles in perfect harmony. None of the 3 are lessor or diminished by any degree by their differing roles.
So it is with families. So it is in the church.
Rom. 9; 19-21
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Dear Fin,
Obscurantism is not a virtue. Raising the straw man argument is not an indication of virtue.
Our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, the word incarnate, has not reduced women to second class status by setting limits of office upon them. Jesus has not made all non-elders second class Christians either. Jesus has not made children second class by setting limits upon them. Jesus has not made brand new Christians second class by setting limits on them. Jesus did not make tongues speakers second class citizens by telling them to remain silent if there is no one interpret. Jesus also set limits on the number of prophets who could speak at assemblies. As for this matter I think it deserves the same rebuke that Jesus gave to Peter. Peter also tried to correct Jesus, once.
” You are a hindrance to Me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men.”
For clarification please define your understanding of speaking prophecy.
Is it forth telling or is it telling forth?
You also seem to be confused concerning, ” women do not deserve to lose their salvation….”
What babbling nonsense is this?
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Dear Finn,
We would agree that the bible, that is to say all scriptures are GOD BREATHED. irrespective of Gods chosen human vessel to put the words to pen, God is in that sense the real author of all scripture. Jesus is God incarnate and Jesus is the logos the word incarnate. Irrespective of the human writer our triune God inspired it and kept it wholly inerrant. We refer to the bible as the word of God rather than the word of men.
So let me rephrase my intent. Our triune God the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit inspired Paul and Peter and James and the author of Hebrews so on and so forth to write exactly what they wrote. In this manner was it not indeed God who wrote all of these scriptures concerning women and authority that you struggle against?
I do not speak for James. In the 7 letters Jesus reveals to no ones surprise that He hates false teachers. Jesus also reveals that He is against any and all who tolerate false teachers. Loving Jesus also includes obeying Him by not tolerating false teachers. In Jerimiah God reveals that His holy wrath is kindled against all who prophecy falsely in His name. One false prophecy disqualifies a self proclaimed prophet for life. One word that conflicts with or is contrary to scripture and sound doctrine disqualifies them for life. This also applies to both would be tongue speakers and tongue interpreters. Jesus also commands us to judge all things righteously. By this metric I have never come across any non-cessationist who could pass it.
My so called hyper-Calvinism is based primarily upon the teachings of Jesus spoken by His own lips in John 6: 35- 44. The Father draws and sends, the Son receives keeps and raises up.
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TI said “By this metric I have never come across any non-cessationist who could pass it.”
Then based on your subjective experiences it must be true brother…
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I cannot find a direct explicit text to absolutely conclude that the sign gifts have all ceased. I would say that today they are not normative. I would say that I cannot accept modern day Apostles qualified by God to write and speak for God. Since that office has ceased it is not unreasonable to think others have also ceased. Many of the earliest of Church Fathers wrote that the sign gifts faded away with the deaths of the Apostles. ( OT prophets were few and far between and not normative at all). We still have two separate things. Being born again does not make you qualified for having authority over men in the church. Having sign gifts does not automatically qualify you for having authority over men. God limited the OT priesthood to qualified men of the tribe of Levi.
God limits NT church elder positions to men of high character. ” a man/husband of one woman” Are these women prophets of which you speak, “husbands of one wife”?
No verse can trump or contradict or set aside that verse ever, period.
I will never concede to your preferred personal bias on this issue. we are at an impasse. I am finished with this give and take. the wise receive godly council.
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