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Christ Alone Wyoming 
Nice Pilgrim! With that logic:
“EVERYTHING I EVER NEEDED TO KNOW ABOUT CHRISTIANITY I LEARNED ON 1099”
1099- Christians enter Jerusalem and put more than 50,000 Jews and Muslims to the sword, including women and children.
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Dear Veritas:
Are you referring to the Inquisition and Crusades?
These horrible acts were perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church, not Christians. Remember, the popes had real Christians put to death as well. Please don’t confuse the apostate Romish institution with genuine, orthodox, biblical Christianity.
True Christians don’t attempt to convert people by the sword because we understand that salvation is of the Lord, not us. Manipulation and force never has and never will convert a soul to a saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
– The Pilgrim
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Veritas,
Are you talking about the Crusades, which were launched to expel the Muslim hordes who had sacked and pillaged Jerusalem with the edge of the sword in their efforts to spread the “Religion of Peace®”?
Not defending the Romish system, but if you want honesty, then here’s some honesty for ya: The army of Mohammed had invaded Jerusalem by force of arms some 15 years prior, and were preparing to shed more blood in the name of “Merciful” Allah. The Crusades were begun to drive the Barbarian Muslims from the city.
Veritas, from now on, if you want to learn about history, try getting it from somewhere other than Daily Kos or Keith Olbermann.
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Pilgrim,
You said, “True Christians don’t attempt to convert people by the sword.” That was my point exactly. The radical Islamic sects that supported 9/11 represent less than 5% of the Muslim world. Yet you and many other Christians want to label the entire Muslim faith as intolerant and hateful.
You also said, “These horrible acts were perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church, not Christians.” What is a Christian? Isn’t it an individual who believes and worships God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Do you mean to tell me that there were no Christians until 1,500 years after Jesus died for sins of mankind? As a Protestant, I admit Catholicism has some twisted theology, but to suggest that Catholics are not Christians is offensive.
As Christians, we should be peacemakers (Matthew 5). Not vengeful and war mongering. Yes, radical Muslims hurt us on 9/11. That doesn’t mean we need to be hateful toward all Muslims.
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God”
– Jesus
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fourpointer,
Your comment, “if you want to learn about history, try getting it from somewhere other than Daily Kos or Keith Olberman,” was hurtful. Just because you disagree with someone doesn’t mean you have to insult their intellect.
For the record, I have studied civilization and world history in college. My references come from academic research, not biased liberal media.
You said, “The Crusades were begun to drive the Barbarian Muslims from the city.” Are you advocating the killing of other human beings over land? Would you have their blood upon your hands because they took a city you believed was holy? What should be the motivation for killing another human being as a Christian? I digress.
If you want to talk about Muslim violence, be fair and discuss Christian violence.
Ever studied the Schmalkaldic War (Catholics and Protestants)? What about the Bosnian Genocide? Less than twenty years ago, Christians murdered Muslims.
You will no doubt say, “They were not ‘true’ Christians.” And I will tell you, the 9/11 terrorists were not ‘true’ Muslims. The Qur’an is a peaceful book. Yes, it denies the Son. Unfortunately, true Muslims are under God’s wrath for denying the deity and lordship of Jesus Christ. However, they are not ‘barbaric’ terrorists like you make them out to be.
Peace,
Veritas
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Veritas,
When you trot out the worn-out, tired, lame, old “The Crusades were started by the evil Christians who were trying to steal land from the poor, poor Muslims who just wanted to live in peace with their brothers” tripe–sorry, but that’s the same junk we hear from the left-wing media today.
Besides, the Crusades were not about land. They were about freeing people from under the yolk of Muslim oppression. Why is it that so many will castigate the Crusaders for trying to drive Muhammad’s army out of Jerusalem–yet they will let the Seljuk Turks off the hook for going in with sword and bloodshed to take the city by force in the first place?
Also, why do you think Islam spread so quickly during the 7th Century? Do you think Muhammad sent out missionaries to feed and clothe the poor throughout Eurasia? Not hardly. Islam was spread with a sword, with blood, and with three simple words–“Convert or die!” THAT is true Islam.
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fourpointer,
You did not even address one of my questions. You are stuck on the liberal media and it’s all you want to talk about.
Veritas
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Dear Veritas:
If Fourpointer is as confused with you as I am, then I can understand why he didn’t seem to answer your questions. There seems to be a cognitive disconnect in your arguments and a profound misunderstanding of Holy Scripture, not to mention a few straw mans thrown in here and there.
– No one said there were no Christians until 1500 as you allege we implied.
– You claim to be a Protestant but you deny the very tenants of the Protestant reformation in this comment on another post, specifically Sola Fide.
– As a professing Protestant you allege that Catholics are indeed Christians. So why are you a Protestant? What are you “protesting?”
– You said, “That doesn’t mean we need to be hateful toward all Muslims.” Who said anything about hating Muslims?
– You also said, “As Christians, we should be peacemakers (Matthew 5). ” Not at the expense of advancing false doctrines of demons that damn a man’s soul to an eternal Hell.
– You also attempted to justify your education by saying to 4P, “For the record, I have studied civilization and world history in college. My references come from academic research, not biased liberal media.” Uh, are you seriously trying to suggest that the liberal elitists that are running the media are absent from academia? Seriously now. This, dare I say, reveals a lot as to your confusing theology.
– Your continued defense of “peaceful” Islam is sad. It is a bloody religion that began with the sword and continues to this day with the sword. The very Koran instructs the death of the infidel (that’s you and me). Whether the nice Muslim family down the street from you refuses to practice violence in the advancement of Islam is irrelevant. Its daily violent advancement across this world cannot be divorced from its teachings.
One last thing Veritas, you have been leaving comments on two posts. And in both cases your only intent (so far) is to defend Islam, defend Catholicism, and advance the heretical lie of works-based salvation. So tell, me, what is your purpose for visiting us?
– The Pilgrim
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My purpose for visiting you, Pilgrim, is to learn. I don’t claim to have all the answers. I am a seeker.
– No one said there were no Christians until 1500 as you allege we implied
Did you not say, “These horrible acts were perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church, not Christians.”
The Catholic Church WAS Christianity up until Christian Humanism (Erasmus) and the Protestant Reformation.
– As a professing Protestant you allege that Catholics are indeed Christians. So why are you a Protestant? What are you “protesting?”
I protest the outward forms of religion (sacraments, pilgrimages, veneration of saints, etc). That doesn’t mean I disagree with every tenant of Catholicism.
– You also said, “As Christians, we should be peacemakers (Matthew 5). ” Not at the expense of advancing false doctrines of demons that damn a man’s soul to an eternal Hell.
Didn’t the Catholics persecute the Protestants because they believed their doctrines were from demons? Jesus didn’t say, “Blessed are the peacemakers in X situation.” He said blessed are the peacemakers.
– Your continued defense of “peaceful” Islam is sad. It is a bloody religion that began with the sword and continues to this day with the sword. The very Koran instructs the death of the infidel (that’s you and me). Whether the nice Muslim family down the street from you refuses to practice violence in the advancement of Islam is irrelevant. Its daily violent advancement across this world cannot be divorced from its teachings.
And here is where we abandon all human empathy. For starters, I have Muslim friends (of Arab descent). They are not violent, but on the contrary, very respectful. The reason I have formed friendships with people from other faiths is because I am not like this picture.
I don’t say, “This is all I need to learn about Islam.” Why? Because it’s isolating. There are 8 billion people in the world and they are not all Christians. I like to learn about these people (they are made in God’s image as are we) and their cultures/religions.
It’s a lot easier to show Muslims the True Godhead and Jesus when you actually learn about their culture, and respect them. The comment on the picture isolates the West from the East. We are supposed to be “children of light.” I will not isolate myself from a Muslim person. I will reach out to them and befriend them.
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Veritas,
Thank you for your comments. It appears that you are seeking, and our prayer is that you will find the truth as contained solely in the Word of God and not in man-made traditions and religion. I have jumped in to clarify a few points which you have erroneously stated.
You said, “The Catholic Church WAS Christianity up until Christian Humanism (Erasmus) and the Protestant Reformation.” Unfortunately, this is what the RCC would have you to believe. However, actual history reveals that there have ALWAYS been (even if small in number) groups of individuals who have held to the truth of God’s Word. They have held to the inerrancy of the Scriptures. They have held to the fundamentals of the faith and these people have existed since the 1st century. By the way, I actually pastor a Bible-believing church and I am NOT a Protestant! The truths I hold to predate both the Reformation AND the Roman Catholic institution.
However, the RCC actually came into existence during the reign of Constantine in the early part of the 4th century! As emperor of Rome, he sought to integrate the pagan practices of the gods he worshipped with the true beliefs of the handfuls of true believers who were in existence. The amalgamation of these two became known as the RCC or the Holy Roman Empire. Interestingly enough, this is called syncretism and has been perfected down through the centuries by the RCC. As long as they get the outward allegiance of the people (as evidenced in Central and South America), the RCC NEVER really did care what you actually believed or practiced outside the boundaries of the Church. Sadly, while they had the aspects of the truth, the RCC quickly became corrupt due to the false teaching and heresy which crept in unabated.
I have likened the acceptance of good and bad parts of RCC to a situation where you have a barrel of apples. I tell you that I have put JUST 1 (one) apple in the barrel and it has been tainted with poison. I am not going to tell you which one it is, but your odds at picking out an apple that is good is extremely high. However, you might bite into the wrong one and being poisoned, you will die! Tell me, Veritas, are YOU willing to take a bite out of one of those apples knowing that just one is poisoned?
I submit that you are not. In like manner, we seek to defend the truth and contend for the faith. We warn that any other gospel that is preached apart from that which is found in the Word of God, that person (or church or pope or priest or pastor or whatever) is to be condemned.
Thanks for reading and stopping by.
The Desert Pastor
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Desert Pastor,
Thanks for the information regarding the Catholic Church’s history. I was aware of Constantine’s relationship with the church (studied Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire), but I didn’t know that he initiated the sycretism between Christianity and popular Greco-Roman culture. Thanks again, that information was helpful.
I’m interested to hear your opinion on what I said concerning Islam though.
Peace,
Veritas
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Veritas,
Your comment that You did not even address one of my questions. You are stuck on the liberal media and it’s all you want to talk about. –where do you get that I am “hung up on the liberal media?” I asked you a simple question: why do you demonize the Crusaders, yet give the Turks a free pass for invading and taking Jerusalem by force? And if you are a student of history, then you know that Islam was spread by the sword. These were “True” Muslims. In fact, how did the Hagia Sophia go from being a church on Thursday to a mosque on Friday?
Your comment that The Catholic Church WAS Christianity up until Christian Humanism (Erasmus) and the Protestant Reformation is also incorrect, as has been pointed out by Pilgrim and Desert Pastor. James White (Alpha and Omega Ministries) has an entire 49-part series on the history of the church that you can listen to, which chronicles church history from the Arian Controversy, right through the Reformation. You can find them available for download here.
As for the wars between “Christian” sects that you mentioned–I don’t have information on those specific ones, so I won’t comment.
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Veritas,
Thanks again for reading here at DefCon. Let me briefly address the questions or comments on Islam and Muslims. First, let me state that all true believers have a direct command and a responsibility to “love their neighbor” and to share the good news of the gospel which is the death, burial, and physical bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Second, it is true that man has been made in the image of God, but we want to make sure that we do not fall into the false teaching known simply as the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man. This simply stated means that God is the Father of all (with no exception) and that all men (again, without exception) are brothers. This is not supported by Scripture, but in fact is clearly seen as otherwise by the teachings of the Bible. Jesus Christ Himself stated that those who were not His followers belonged to the evil one – namely, Satan (Lucifer).
Third, it is a major contention of cross-cultural communications within the realm of missiology that to effectively witness to someone of a different language and culture that you must understand their heart. You must be willing to step outside of preconceived understandings of western civilization and westernized Christianity in order to know how another group of person sees the Bible from their perspective. As an example, a person from Israel or the Middle East would probably much better many of the illustrations given in the Gospels because the manners and customs of those countries has changed little in the last 20 centuries or more in some cases. Even Biblical scholars can show how various gospels were written with a specific audience in mind, such as The Gospel of Mark for the Romans, etc.
Fourth, however, it is wise to point out that the Word of God clearly cuts across culture. It is transcultural and has the ability to reach the heart whether the speaker of the Word is fully cognizant of the culture or a fluent speaker of the listener’s heart language (which is that which they were born hearing and grew up speaking as a main language). We do not have the freedom of God’s Word to study culture with the idea of accepting that culture merely because we do not understand it. Another example outside the realms of Islam would be – if you were to go to the jungles of Africa, South America or Papua New Guinea you would find that their culture accepts practices that are clearly abhorrent and demeaning to other human beings. The Bible being taught and the work of the Holy Spirit in those locations brings about complete transformation in the hearts and souls of those natives. The first thing that happens is the practices that are contrary to the commands of Scripture (such as love your neighbor) then begin to disappear and harmony within family units begins to take place. The missionary would be VERY wrong if he were to go in, listen and learn the culture, and then state “God loves you, has a wonderful plan for your life, and will accept you just as you are so don’t worry about these practices that my western mindset does not understand or accept!”
Finally (for now), history is clear as has been pointed out already that Islam spread through the use of the sword. Having grown up and spent a LOT of time in Europe, I know that the “peaceful” facade that is being shown by Islam is merely a front. The religion itself teaches and demands world domination no matter how it must be achieved. The Koran (Quran) is clear that those who eventually do not submit to their false god called Allah must pay the price (either in heavy taxation or through the brutal murdering of the non-believer). You want to see “peaceful” people in action, go to Europe after the Muslims have “supposedly” been “mistreated.” Listen to the hatred and vitriol being spewed forth by their imams, and then watch what happens to “peaceful” people of the Islamic religion. Yes, we are to have empathy for them (as for all who do not know the Lord Jesus Christ) because eternal damnation is their lot without the grace of God changing them into a new creation in Christ. BUT, we must NEVER lose sight of what their religion demands.
The Desert Pastor
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Please do not assume that my rejection of the false religion of Islam equals hate and disrespect for the individual Muslim.
However, my respect for these people and love for them as human beings does not preclude me from distinguishing truth from error. The worst thing in the world I could do in the name of “tolerance,” “love,” and being a “peacemaker” is to suggest, imply, or propagate the idea that their false religion is ok, acceptable, or truth. John the Baptist, The Apostle Paul, and even Jesus himself were “peacemakers” but not at the expense of truth. It’s not a matter of “conditional application,” it’s a matter of context.
The most loving thing a Christian can do for these people is to share the Gospel (to warn them of their impending doom on the other side of eternity).
My love and respect for these individuals also does not blind me from fact, history, and reality.
Did the Catholics torture and kill many, many people because of their belief that “heretics” should be burned at the stake and souls could be converted by the threat of death? Yes.
Did the Mormons kill 120 innocent men, women, and children in the Mountain Meadows Massacre through their teaching of Blood Atonement? Yes.
Do the Jehovah’s Witnesses (by virtue of their false doctrine of abstaining from blood transfusions) kill numerous people every year? Yes.
Did the Muslims of long ago and many still today kill in the name of Allah to advance Islam because the Koran instructs them to. Yes.
The ramifications of false teachings leads not only to physical death for many, but a spiritual death for all you believe these false doctrines of demons.
Sincerely,
– The Pilgrim
P.S. I recommend you take a little six-question test I posted earlier this year; you may actually like it. It’s entitled A Test: Are You Loving or Unloving?
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Veritas,
Since you are trying to familiarize yourself with Muslim culture, this book below is a must read. This is an extraordinary story of a woman and her family who were born in Lebanon, and persecuted for their Christian beliefs. This woman is now a citizen of America, a journalist who continues to speak the truth about the Muslim agenda -namely to dominate and to bring the world under their law, through any means necessary. She speaks out boldly, even at threat to her own life.
I think you will find it eye opening coming from someone who was born and raised in a largely Islamic country, and knows the culture much better than any of us here.
I believe everyone who seriously thinks the majority of Muslims believe America is great country should read this. It is an eye opening look, both up front and personal, as well as a factual politcal commentary of why Islam can never really be at peace with Christians anywhere.
The name of the book is:
“Because They Hate” by Brigette Gabriel
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mbaker,
I have a Muslim friend in Lebanon. Her name is Hodroj and we have had many conversations about God/religion. I have told her that outside of Jesus there is no salvation. She has told me what she believes as well. We have had a good friendship for a couple of years, and we share a mutual respect for each, despite our differences. Your comment “Islam can never really be at peace with Christians anywhere” isn’t very accurate. The last census taken in Lebanon reported 59% Muslim and 39% Christian. Yes, there are radical Muslims. And as I told fourpointer before, those groups represent less than 5% of the Muslim world.
Peace,
Veritas
__________________________________________________________________________
fourpointer,
You misunderstood me earlier. I wasn’t trying to demonize the Crusaders while allowing the Ottoman Turks and the Seljuks off the hook. I was simply pointing out that religious extremism can be found in every religion, including Christianity. There are even radical Buddhists. Out of all the world’s religions, you would think Buddhism would be free of violence/intolerance (the whole idea of nirvana).
Peace,
Veritas
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Veritas,
Please read the last paragraph of Desert Pastor’s last comment above, where he speaks about the punishment for anyone who does not embrace Muslim beliefs. I am glad you have a Muslim friend and are able to witness Christ to her, but please don’t let that delude you into thinking the Quran teaches peace with Christians, because it doesn’t.
Any woman who leaves the islamic religion, or disobeys their religious laws is hunted down by the males in her family, and killed. We have a recent example of a father who brutally murdered his two daughters right here in America because they wanted to date non-Muslims.
Please read that book I recommended above, and the Quran.
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mbaker,
I humbly request that you present either a hadith or sura to support your claim that the Qur’an teaches against peace with Christians.
You can get a free Qur’an from your local Mosque or you can use this one online: http://quran-online.net/
Peace,
Veritas
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Veritas,
In response to your query to mbaker (“I humbly request that you present either a hadith or sura to support your claim that the Qur’an teaches against peace with Christians.“), there are quotes from the Qu’ran and Hadith here. Also, you can read responses from a mufti in regards to how Muslims are to view “People of the Book” here, which includes lengthy excerpts from the Hadith, in a Muslim context.
Also, thank you for clarifying your earlier comments. It is true that there are radicals in every religion–many of whom even try to take upon themselves the mantle of “Christian” (see Fred Phelps and Jeremiah Wright). But these are abherrations, while those whom many call “radical” Muslims are indeed practising those things that Muhammed taught.
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