November 5, 2007 by Pilgrim

The top 5 Brigham Young teachings that Mormons desperately try to conceal from you.

Defending Contending presents the top five teachings from Mormon “prophet” Brigham Young that Mormons desperately try to conceal from you and even their own members:

#5.) Polygamy: “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.” (Journal of Discourse, Volume 11, Page 269, 1866)

#4.) Adam is God: “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later.” (Journal of Discourse, Volume 1, Page 50, 1852, and The Millennial Star, Volume 15, Page 769)

#3.) Men on the moon and sun: “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed “the man in the moon,” and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.” (Journal of Discourses,Volume 13, Page 271, 1870)

#2.) Blood Atonement: “Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved in the kingdom . . . and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, “shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?” All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?” (Journal of Discourse, Volume 4, Page 219, 1857)

#1.) The Black Race is Cursed: “You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, Page 291, 1859)

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I will commence by saying to the Latter-day Saints and to all the inhabitants of the earth that I am responsible for the doctrine I teach; but I am not responsible for the obedience of the people to that doctrine. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, Page 1)

I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, Page 95)

I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life . . . . If there is an elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; that is the reason. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 16, Page 161)

92 thoughts on “The top 5 Brigham Young teachings that Mormons desperately try to conceal from you.”

fourpointer | November 5, 2007 at 3:14 pm

You forgot to include how he loved his wives so much that he would put a javelin through the chest of any of them that cheated on him. If that don’t spell love, I don’t know what does 🙂

Of course, they’ll come back with their usual “It was never official doctrine, blah blah blah,” because it didn’t find it’s way into the D&C, or BOM. Even though these things were taught for nearly a hundred years by every Mormon apostle/prophet. It’s gotten to the point now that even Mormons don’t know what the Mormon church teaches.

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Pilgrim | November 5, 2007 at 3:19 pm

Fourpointer:
It was very difficult for me to just select one Blood Atonement quote. However, just for you, (because I take requests) I’ll include the javelin quote here:

“Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands. . . . If the Lord so ordered it that they are not caught in the act of their iniquity, it is pretty good proof that He is willing for them to live; and I say let them live and suffer in the flesh for their sins, for they will have it to do. There is not a man or woman who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . ”
(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 3:247)

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LDS Anarchist | November 5, 2007 at 4:43 pm

Brigham was giving a hypothetical (non-existent) situation to illustrate the need to have mercy upon sinners. When he says, “suppose,” you can put the word suppose in front of each clause. In other words, “suppose you found your brother…suppose you put a javelin…suppose you would be justified,” etc. He’s saying that if such a non-existent situation existed, he could do it because he keeps his covenants, and is clean, but those who don’t keep their covenants had better beware how they judge people.

As far as the transgressor atoning for their own sins, he is referring to the unrepentant, which have no claim on the mercies of Christ, which are only available to those who repent of their sins. This is the meaning of this passage. Here is the full text of the quote:

——————————-

A few of the men and women who go into the house of the Lord, and receive their endowments, and in the most sacred manner make covenants before the Almighty, go and violate those covenants. Do I have compassion on them? Yes, I do have mercy on them, for there is something in their, organization which they do not understand; and there are but few in this congregation who do understand it.

You say, “That man ought to die for transgressing the law of God.” Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands. But you who trifle with your covenants, be careful lest in judging you will be judged.

Every man and women has got to have clean hands and a pure heart, to execute judgment, else they had better let the matter alone.

Again, suppose the parties are not caught in their iniquity, and it passes along unnoticed, shall I have compassion on them? Yes, I will have compassion on them, for transgressions of the nature already named, or for those of any other description. If the Lord so order it that they are not caught in the act of their iniquity, it is pretty good proof that He is willing for them to live; and I say let them live and suffer in the flesh for their sins, for they will have it to do.

There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants. To what degree? Will they have to go to hell? They are in hell enough now. I do not wish them in a greater hell, when their consciences condemn them all the time. Let compassion reign in our bosoms. Try to comprehend how weak we are, how we are organized, how the spirit and the flesh are continually at war.

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billphillips | November 5, 2007 at 7:43 pm

I believe the doctrine of atonement is found in many places, by both Young and Joseph Smith: Journal of Discourses Vol. 3, p. 243-249, Vol. 4, p. 51-57, Vol. 4, p. 215-221, and Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Smith, Vol. I p. 135.

I have another quote that could have made the top 5:

Brigham Young compared his sermons with scripture.
“I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom…I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 95.)

Good post,
Bill

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Pilgrim | November 5, 2007 at 10:00 pm

Thanks Bill.

I have that quote too. I’ve been researching and compiling LDS teachings for a few years now. There’s not too many quotes out there that I am not familiar with.

I just wish more Mormons would take the time to study their own organization’s teachings.

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fourpointer | November 6, 2007 at 6:33 am

Anarchist,

Sorry, the “hypothetical” argument doesn’t wash. Because BY is telling us how he WOULD respond given the situation. He’s saying that if he caught his wife in bed with another man, he would love her enough to kill her, and have clean hands.

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LDS Anarchist | November 6, 2007 at 11:38 am

fourpointer, the key to understanding Young’s words in the quote in question are the following: “Let me SUPPOSE a case. SUPPOSE you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, YOU WOULD BE JUSTIFIED, and THEY WOULD ATONE FOR THEIR SINS, and BE RECEIVED INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. I would at once do so IN SUCH A CASE; and UNDER SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES,” The hypothetical situation is non-existent. You cannot die in your sins (adultery, even) and expect that your death would atone for your sins and that you’ll be received into the kingdom of God. So the entire sentence is the same as if Brigham Young said, “Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and suppose you put a javelin through both of them, and suppose you would be justified, and suppose they would atone for their sins, and suppose they would be received into the kingdom of God.” The whole thing is a supposition that doesn’t exist in the real world. But Young is using it as an example to teach that if such a thing did occur and these sinners were, as the supposition goes, received into the kingdom of God, he would be able to do it, because he is clean. He is not saying that if he found his wife in bed with another man, that he would put a javelin in his heart, he’s saying that if the law were such as this situation and circumstances (with all the suppositions) and that these people would be saved, he would be able to comply with the law because he keeps his covenants and is clean. Even though undoubtedly the quote isn’t verbatim, unless the speech was written before and then read and archived, it is sufficiently clear to understand what he was attempting to say. To say other than this is to take the quote out of its context and to deny the rules of plain English. So, Pilgrim should strike this one from his list, as it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. (I haven’t looked at the others.)

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Pilgrim | November 6, 2007 at 1:10 pm

Well, Anarchist, your argument (besides being very creative) will necessitate me to include a post of all of BY’s teachings (doctrines) on Blood Atonement. Your slick manuevering around the issue will not help you to escape the fact that he taught Blood Atonement.

Keep checking back as I will post this in the near future and we can then let the undecided and uninfluenced (and unindoctrinated) read his quotes and come to their own conclusions.

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fourpointer | November 6, 2007 at 1:47 pm

Anarchist,

The “hypothetical” argument still doesn’t hold up. Because, in the fifth paragraph you posted in your first reply, Young says that “There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.” Therefore, Young is saying that there are certain sins that Jesus’ blood doesn’t atone for, (This, of course, is a heresy. The only unpardonable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.) and that you must love a person enough to shed their blood.

This is especially evident when coupled with this quote from Young (included in the quote Pilgrim used in his post): “Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the sheding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?” So, it is obvious when you take these quotes together that Brigham Young was saying that in order to truly “love thy neighbor,” that if they have committed a sin which Jesus’ blood won’t atone for (again, heresy) you must be willing to kill them, and spill their blood, so they may atone for their own sins.

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LDS Anarchist | November 6, 2007 at 4:01 pm

Pilgrim, yes, please post all the references to blood atonement. No need to post the actual text, just the volume and page number of each speech that talked about it. You’ve peaked my curiosity and I wish to look over what he says about it. Just a casual perusal done today makes me think that Brigham was attempting to justify the use of the death penalty in the scriptures with the gospel of Jesus Christ. It almost sounds like a pet theory.

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Pilgrim | November 8, 2007 at 3:46 pm

Hey Anarchist, here’s the post: http://reformationnation.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/the-mormon-doctrine-of-blood-atonement-from-the-mouth-of-brigham-young/

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Pilgrim | November 14, 2007 at 11:44 pm

Hey Anarchist, I haven’t seen you around in a while. The info you requested has been posted.
The Mormon teachings of Blood Atonement:
Part One
Part Two

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youngsterville | June 12, 2015 at 5:11 am

If this was of any concern in our day today I’m sure a lot more people would join in on this discussion but it holds no water because Mormons do know their religion as it pertains to their lives in these days. As an enemy to My Church, I really feel you’re behind on things and should consider rethinking your priorities in life altogether. We actually have come a long way in understanding the gospel and we have had many prophets come up through the times to bring us far closer to understanding the will of God. More importantly we have a living Prophet of God who leads us today. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I can tell you I know my religion very well and my faith is experienced and my Joy is Full. I know it is the religion of the fullness of times. As things of the past seem so insignificant or even barbaric they are as imortant as anything and just because some like yourselves don’t understand them doesn’t mean they weren’t important revelation for the time being. Revelation does evolve and does come to full fruitation…. That is all…

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J.L. Pattison | June 17, 2015 at 12:21 pm

So, Youngster, were your prophets wrong THEN, or are they wrong NOW?

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youngsterville | June 17, 2015 at 9:27 pm

Actually it’s fully understandable to me that people who have built up their own ideas about the meaning of the biblical scriptures might have quite the impairment to understanding how things really work even if it were an actual living prophet of God speakin directly to them. You have to have a completely freed mind from any false teaching you’ve built a life around. You have to have a pure heart with true intent, broken and contrite. You have to most importantly learn how to listen to the Spirit of Holy Ghost which is how God the Father speaks to us. In the Book of Mormon we have been given a large amount of information that can allow such a meek and humble person to grow closer to that Spirit. Now imagine we know for certain that there are records out their from all of the 12 lost tribes of Isreal the bible and the Book of Mormon are just two of those records. As the people of this world we are being prepared through many works of God right now in our day and age to receive these other records and to further teach us the craftiness of both good and evil.*** I know revelation becomes more clear but doesn’t have to be taken so much out of context that you miss out on the end result completely. *** this is the way revelation through all of the prophet since Adam has been revealed. We are in the last dispensation before the coming of the Lord and being the last means the Church is here to stay and we will not loose the worthy holders of the Priesthood from the earth until Jesus Christ returns. We can rely on the prophets from the past seven dispensations to speak the word of God as was suffice for the people who follow them with nothing wavering. As Adam the first prophet spoke directly with our Father in Heaven so has each prophet of each dispensation also done. You can trust that Jospeh Smith was as true a prophet as Adam with out any of the other corruptions of man in between getting in the way. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ and now Joseph Smith talk with God as a fourteen year old boy. Great lengths have been made to preserve yours and mine and everyone else’s personal agency to choose and to progress in being free agents of choice. The more you choose to fight against truth the more you will prolong the adversaries control over you and the more likely you’ll be one of his dark angles of deceit while loosing more and more of your own free will to choose and to progress in righteousness and truth. Climb Every Mountain my friend. With much love in Jesus Christ’s name Amen…

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J.L. Pattison | June 18, 2015 at 7:59 pm

When you speak of the Book of Mormon, are you referring to the original Book of Mormon or the current one after the almost 4,000 changes, alterations, and corrections were made?
http://defendingcontending.com/2008/03/07/3913-documented-changes-to-the-most-correct-book-on-earth/

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youngsterville | June 18, 2015 at 11:27 pm

J.L. Pattison, Have you ever been visited by an angel of the devil who asked you to speak these things? Let me just ensure you that you are not putting things into there proper perspective and therefore you are perverting the things of God. The corrections made to the Book of Mormon were grammatical errors and do not take away the immense value that I have personally found in the many many stories throughout all of the books within the Book of Mormon. One mans trash is another mans treasure and I have Found the words of Joseph Smith, when he says, “a person can grow closer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book” to be very true. Is there a book that you think has helped people get closer to God? If you say the bible then you’re almost right but the Book of Mormon is the bibles saving grace because not only does the Book of Mormon teach the same type of principles as the bible but it helps a person get more out of the Bible. It combined with the bible is absolutely priceless….

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Mark Anthony Escalera | June 19, 2015 at 7:40 am

Youngsterville, thank you for stopping by. I hope that you will give serious consideration to the words shared with you.

In the meantime, I want to ask if you personally believe in polygamy. Do you believe that Adam is God or that there are inhabitants on the sun and moon? Do you believe in the doctrine of blood atonement? Finally, do you believe that the black race is accursed and that all black skinned people were the result of being wicked spirit babies?

BEFORE you answer, please consider carefully that this is NOT teaching that is corrected by making them out to be grammatical errors. If you disagree with one or all of the above doctrines, then you are not in line with LDS teaching. If you agree with it, then your current leaders no longer hold to what was gospel by both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

Obviously, it does present a bit of dilemma for the thinking individual, doesn’t it?

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 19, 2015 at 8:15 am

Youngsterville,

You give a lot of platitudes, and make a lot of unsubstantiated claims. So it is really difficult to decide where to start.

You say that the BOM changes were just grammatical errors. This shows how unfamiliar you really are with the book.

1 Nephi 11:18 originally stated in the 1830 Book of Mormon, “Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God.” This verse now reads, “Behold, the virgin whom thou seest, is the mother of the son of God.” How is this change explained since there were no plates to refer to?

1 Nephi 11:21. Page 25 of the 1830 edition says, “And the angel said unto me, Behold the Lamb of God, yea even the eternal father”. In later editions, it reads, “And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the son of the eternal Father!” How is this change explained?

1 Nephi 11:32 in the 1830 version said, “And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God…yea, the everlasting God was judged of the world.” The passage now reads, “…yea, the Son of the everlasting God…” Why the change?

And you claim these are just changes to grammatical errors?

I’d love to have a discussion about the many errors — including anachronisms — in the BOM, as well as the many places it contradicts the Bible and the Doctrine & Covenants. The BOM has long been proven to be a fraud. And I’d love to have a discussion about the approximately 50 false prophecies made by your “prophet” Joseph Smith.

The LDS is based on a fraud, has had nothing but frauds for prophet/presidents, and is nothing like true Christianity. You will never find salvation in the LDS.

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youngsterville | June 19, 2015 at 11:57 pm

How Revelation Really Works – Im sorry for being so difficult and indirect. It’s my way though of cutting through your mindset and bringing you closer to my way of thinking. To be more fare though I’ll be very direct but please dont think I’m not going into enough detail because it really is not required to debate in each individual correction because you first need to know how revelation really works. Please do not undermine what I am now going to share with you…
The prophets that make changes to their teachings weren’t so much wrong as they were incomplete. Most all revelations that come to a prophet of the world come in stages. Not only because the prophet needs to grow in understanding but also because the rest of the world needs to grow in their understanding of things as well. A patriarch or matriarch within a family unit can receive revelation very similar to the way a prophet called of God would receive for the entire world. Of course if you really want direction for your own family it would be best to fallow the prophet so your own revelation can be much more meaningful and inline with Gods will. Personal Revelation also works the same way and we should strive to always put Gods will before our own in order to be open to personal revelation.

As far as answering your questions in the format that your looking for to entrap me into your own understanding of My Churches doctrine would be silly. I have had personal revelation that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is lead and guided through a living prophet of God. Nothing you have said is unfamiliar to me. I have a prophet to help me understand these things and you have not allowed yourself to be free to see that. Fraud you say but where is your proof. You can not prove other than by your own words but with the understanding I have of all things I have all things as my personal testimony that God lives and has restored his Church through the young 14 year old boy who was of goodly parents and went into the forest to pray. Don’t try and give me any more stuff about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or the Book of Mormon because there benefits far outweigh any possible minuet little weakness that they’ve displayed in their past. I would think you would hate it if you were put under a microscope by some very biased people. It really is a hateful thing that your doing. I’m sure you aren’t aware of this but to grossly undermine the greatest church in the history of the world as you are doing must be deeply seeded from some sort of hate. It’s in fact a hate crime but I would be the hater if I were to continue on going overboard to the point of pointlessness. Out of the love I have for God and Jesus Christ and but more importantly for the knowledge I have of Gods great Plan of Happiness and salvation I will stop here because I do know without any doubt that we are all part of a heavenly family and as brothers and sisters I know we are going to be given every opportunity to humble ourselves and continue on our journey toward eternal exhalation. Just as There is no better story nor better example of perfection as that of Jesus Christ neither is there no better example of a Fullness of Times as learned through modern day revelation and the fullness of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed through the modern prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints…

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youngsterville | June 20, 2015 at 1:36 am

Mark Anthony Escalera – In our current state and time I do believe in polygamy as being a sin. I do not think Joseph Smith was wrong for prophesying about Gods will for the Church to practice polygamy at the time it was revealed to him.
My Church knows very well of the damage that polygamy has caused however it was required at the time and only those called to take on extra wives were expected to follow the commandment of polygamy. Brigham Young may or may not have understood the reasons I would say he did not. Many took it out of its proper order from the being of polygamy and were excommunicated for their abuse of it. I am very glad to not have been expected to comply with polygamy. It was only in a time of great need that it was required. I would pray about it a lot before ever complying with such a huge change in my life. Many people in the church still think that multiple wives might be part of the order in heaven but that to me makes little sense, still I reserve no prejudices against Gods Will. There is no prophecy that teaches we would have multiple wives after the final judgment.

As for Blacks and the teachings about such difficult things to understand. I do think it’s important to try and disprove this issue since there is a chance it could very well be Part of Gods plan. I personally was taught very well by my own mother on this issue. She was taught by her mother and her mother by her mother and all the way back from the prophet Brigham Young.
Blacks were given a curse but this does not mean we are supposed to take part in treating them badly in any way because everyone has different types of curses and they are given to us to assist us with our weaknesses and help us grow closer to God not further away….

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youngsterville | June 20, 2015 at 1:47 am

I have personally studied the lives and teachings and I sustain Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and every prophet up to our current Prophet, President Thomas S. Monson as true prophets and seers of God just as the prophets of old but even so much better because they themselves have attributed to the collaboration of this the last dispensation of the Fullness of Times. Because of them my Joy is Full… I love them with all my heart for there devotion and sacrifice to the building up of the Kingdom of God here on earth….

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 20, 2015 at 5:08 am

Youngsterville,

Your lame excuses for prophets are not acceptable. In O.T. times they would have been stoned to death. They were frauds. And the prophecies I can prove false were NEVER claimed to be incomplete – on the contrary, they were dogmatically claimed as perfect.

Any personal revelation you’ve had would have come from satan. I am fully educated in the LDS teachings. I am an ex-Mormon and have thoroughly studied the history of the LDS and all it’s prophets for over 40 years now. I have copies of all the JoD, 1830 BOM, 1833 Book of Commandments, Smith’s diaries, etc. Don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. I submit it is you with the blinders on and refusal to examine your cult. There is no hate about it. IT is because I love the Mormon people that I want them to know the truth and come to the true Christ of the Bible for salvation.

Polygamy was NEVER commanded by God, it was a command of Smith to cover his serial adultery.

Your way of thinking will end in eternal damnation.

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youngsterville | June 20, 2015 at 7:52 am

I am very comfortable with my understanding because I have the Holy Spirit testify of each and every time I have tried to contemplate just how demented Joseph Smith would have had to be in order to dictate the Doctrine and Covenants while all along finding biblical correspondences to make it work. My favorite thing about Joseph Smith is the D&C. I am firmly planted against a mountain of a rock to back my stance. The prophets are very dear to my heart and so it is very offensive for you to call anyone of them a lame excuse for a prophet. They were more better equipped then any other person on the earth for heir time. You say they’d be stoned but what happened to the best prophet that ever walked on the earth? The scriptures are where the modern Lds prophets have gotten their backing from. I could never ever ever turn my back on the scriptures. It would be sadomastic for me to try and deny the miracles I’ve seen come into my life from my personal scripture study of the Book of Mormon and the pearl of great great great price and the Doctrine & Covenants and yes I absolutely love the JST changes as well. The JST really does make things clearer. Then there are countless scholars and seminary teachers and Institute teachers and family members and missionaries and my patriarchal blessing and the whole complexities of the organization the church that form the most beautiful tapestry for me to find immense amounts of love for my church. You say you love the Mormon people but you also say how very well informed you are about LDS doctrine and I do believe you about that but what you’ve missed out on is allowing the spirit to do the work for you. It doesn’t have to be so difficult for you see as clearly as I and so many others do. You’re spending so much time and effort studying the effects of the Mormon culture and your missing out on how your own personal blessings. You just need to either pray for the spirit to help you know if the mysterious things of the Church are a good thing or a bad thing. If there good then they’re true and you can apply many good hints into your life. If you do not get an answer at all then try and humble yourself as much as possible before listening to that inner feeling in your heart. If you get a answer that it’s not the true church and has no truth to it then I must say I’m very sorry for your loss because it has done the absolute opposite for me and many millions of others. I do testify the church is good and therefore it is true, in Jesus the Christ’s name so be it…

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Mark Anthony Escalera | June 20, 2015 at 10:55 am

Youngsterville, one of the things that stands out is how far your words are removed from the truth of Scripture. You have spoken of how wonderful the prophets are, how your “joy is full”, and how you love them with all your heart. You previously stated that the Scriptures are not sufficient, but that the world needed the BoM in order to see more clearly, yet the BoM stands opposed to much of what is actually found in the Scriptures. This is even amazing in itself considering that much of the BoM was plagiarized directly from the Authorized Version (King James Version).

You said,

Don’t try and give me any more stuff about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or the Book of Mormon because there benefits far outweigh any possible minuet little weakness that they’ve displayed in their past.

Again, this does not line up with the Bible because God Himself makes it clear that we are to test those who claim to be prophets to see if what they say is true. If an Old Testament prophet missed on one single point of prophecy, they were deemed NOT to be a messenger of God. Do you see the problem here? You can have all the “burning in your bosom” experiences all you want, but Satan (who is NOT a brother of the Lord Jesus Christ) is an angel of light and will use his ministers to teach false things designed to take hearts further away from who Jesus Christ actually is.

One other thing for now. Let me show you the difference between your belief system and true faith. My faith is NOT in any fallible man. It is NOT found in prophets who have repeatedly contradicted themselves and lied to cover their own depravity. My love is NOT based on a person who will let you down. My faith is found ONLY in Jesus Christ, the ONLY begotten Son of God, who was not only God but became man in order to atone for the sins of mankind because He was the ONLY one who could have been the perfect Lamb of God. It is ONLY because of Jesus Christ that my joy is full, my sins are forgiven, and I can know the Holy Spirit working in my heart to show the truth of what is in the Bible.

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Mark Anthony Escalera | June 20, 2015 at 11:02 am

Youngsterville, I do testify the man in the moon and martians are real and good and therefore it is true, in Jesus the Christ’s name so be it…

Can you see the futility of such a statement?

Simply because you are taught to “testify” to a belief that it is real and good does NOT therefore make it true. And to throw all these things together and tag it #inJesusnamesobeit or #inthenameofChristsobeit will not make it any more true than if I had not testified to begin with.

This is called circular reasoning and is flawed completely. What is amazing is your logic is further flawed by your last statement. Basically, you have asked us to search our hearts and feelings. If they don’t line up with you, then you are sorry for our loss. However, because millions of you have had a burning in your bosom, that is what makes it true???

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 20, 2015 at 11:44 am

Youngsterville,

I bear you my testimony that the Mormon faith is built on false prophets and fraud. I bear you my testimony that any spirit telling you something different is not from God. I bear you my testimony that truth will offend you as long as you hold to the Mormon line.

If you really want the truth, I challenge you to come to my blog and examine what I have posted, and explain to me where my errors are. http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com

Here you will find my examinations of the Book of Mormon, the prophecies of Joseph Smith, how God views polygamy, Mormonism’s non-virgin virgin Mary, examinations of other prophets’ teachings, etc. TRUTH about the LDS, facts from their own teachings. Come on over and see.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 20, 2015 at 11:46 am

Youngsterville,

Here’s a recent post from my blog; perhaps you can answer the question at the end?

Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. . . . this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians . . . is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers, . . . Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it . . . and the Lord’s servants have always practiced it. “And is that religion popular in heaven?” It is the only popular religion there.
Brigham Young, Desert News, 6 August 1862

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p.269.

So is monogamy really the invention of men? What about Genesis 2:21-24 where God made ONE woman for Adam? See my article, “God’s View of Polygamy” for the correct information as to God’s desires. ( http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/gods-view-of-polygamy.html )

Additionally, Jacob 1:15 in the Book of Mormon calls polygamy a “wicked practice,” and Jacob 2:24 has God saying having multiple wives and concubines is abominable. In Jacob 2:27 it says, “For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.” This is reiterated in Jacob 3:5.

So did the Mormon god change his mind?

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 20, 2015 at 12:17 pm

By the way Youngsterville,

You whine about being offended, but every REAL Christian is offended every time a Mormon claims THEY are Christian!

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youngsterville | June 20, 2015 at 2:12 pm

Glenn E. Chatfield – It would be wrong of me to keep aggravating these debates so much because you say you have 40 years experience in Mormon teachings but it’s all been going in the wrong direction. I would only be continuing you on this path.
If other Christians are offended by a Mormon claiming to be Christian its only from an indirect way that they are taking offense. I have no desire nor any need to go around preaching against other religious beliefs. I rather have been taught by my church to share in the joy of each other churches having also received eternal truths that bless their lives. In much the same way they bless my life I learn from these types of healthy interactions but the restored gospel is very much self sufficient in that the gospel has been laid out full enough to provide away for us to rest assured that we are well on the path to perfection and toward returning to Gods presence. It’s my desire to rid us of the idea that we are so different from each other and just share in the joy of Christ’s teachings and love one another…

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 20, 2015 at 3:39 pm

Youngsterville,

My research into Mormonism is in the RIGHT direction – towards truth.

Mormons teach against real Christianity all the time, and it is in their standard works in Joseph Smith’s fake testimony where God is supposedly telling him that all our doctrines are false. Whenever a Mormon goes door-to-door they are teaching against real Christian beliefs.

Your church has NO eternal truths, and you refuse to look at truth.

We are very different from each other in our faiths. The Mormon god is an exalted man who earned his way to godhood and lives on another planet. The Christian God is an eternal God who is spirit and has always been God. I could go on with a litany of the differences between the Mormon Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible also to prove we are very, very different.

I cannot share your joy of false teachings.

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youngsterville | June 20, 2015 at 10:24 pm

I really do not mind your statement that we are so very different than other Christian denominations other than the part where you say we have no eternal truths. I do have to correct one very important misconception you’ve assumed with the Book of Mormon being perfect. The correct statement made by Joseph Smith was
“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” He distinctly states that the BOM is the “most correct book”. I have spent many many years putting this statement to the test. It’s very personal to me and could be the very reason I am still a member of the church today. It was this bold yet humble statement that intrigued my desire to know more. He’s saying that it’s better than any other book as being translated but he’s also leaving an immense amount of room for error by specifically not saying that it is perfect. So even the rough draft version with all of its imperfections still contain the teachings of eternal truths and the stories of people who lived real lives with very realistic experiences of the divine interactions that have proven to be examples of situations that I my self can use in today’s world to bring others closer God and like a magic book that has more power than anything I’ve ever come across anywhere I am able to know the mysteries of Gods kingdom. I don’t believe in magic but the ability to act in Gods name having full confidence that he will make my weakness become my strengths is very empowering and fulfilling to my desire to grow closer to God. One last thing before I begin my sabbath observance is that if you were just able to stop looking so much at the prophets themselves and focus as much attention on what they’ve given us as a whole and try to really learn the invaluable lessons that remain hidden deep within the Book of Mormon I am sure we just might have a chance at seeing eye to eye…

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 21, 2015 at 6:03 am

Youngsterville,

So you’ve studied the Book of Mormon to “put it to the test”? Nice cop out of claiming the BOM has wiggle room for error. But it doesn’t pass. I challenge you to examine my series examining the book of mormon and explain the errors in this “world’s most correct book.” You won’t do it because you would learn the truth.

Here are my opening three questions to ponder:

1. The translation of the Book Of Mormon was purportedly done by revelation, and therefore no error of man should have been involved; no wrong names, no wrong words or grammatical errors, nothing to delete or add to the original translation. If any additions or corrections are made, there is no way that the new editor can know what the original manuscript [the plates] actually said, and therefore no change to the original translation should be made. Another problem throughout is the use of New Testament doctrine, which would be anachronistic before Christ died.

2. Hebrews and Egyptians of the same period of time as the people in the Book of Mormon used prepared animal skins or papyrus for writing; why would the people of this Mormon record engrave on brass and gold plates? Engraving is a slow process, even slower if the engraver casts his own plates, so one would expect the engravers to be very concise! Yet the Book of Mormon is very wordy.

3. Orson Pratt stated, about the Book of Mormon, “This book must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God…If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who would sincerely receive it as the word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth until they are plunged with their families into hopeless despair. The nature of the message in the Book Of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it.”

I can prove it is false. Here are the direct links to each article in my series, just to make it easy for you.

http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/questions-regarding-book-of-mormon-part.html
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/questions-regarding-book-of-mormon-part_29.html
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/questions-regarding-book-of-mormon-part_30.html
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/questions-regarding-book-of-mormon-part_17.html

My series ends with this:
Explain how an inspired translation from Reformed Egyptian directly to the English language of 1830 becomes virtually word-for-word identical with the 1611 English translation from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek; how do the words become the same? (Especially explain how the italicized words in the KJV – those not in the original but put there by the translators to help make sense – are included in the Book of Mormon.)

The text shown to Smith on his seer stone in his hat over his face would not move until the scribe copied everything accurately – so why have there been over 4000 changes to the text since 1830?

Last, but not least, the Lamanites are supposed to be descendants of Jewish people — Semites — and the American Indian is descended from the Lamanites. Anthropologists state that the American Indian is Mongoloid — descended from Asian peoples who crossed the Bering Strait. This has been demonstrated conclusively by recent DNA studies.

My series covers only the most obvious errors which most educated people can see. Yet just this simple examination demonstrates conclusively that the BOM is a fictional work of a con artist.

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youngsterville | June 22, 2015 at 1:11 am

In 1832, the Prophet said his testimony was the “last of all” testimonies given. While that may have been true in 1832, his testimony is no longer the last of all. Nor is he the last who can declare that he has seen the Lord. The apostles and prophets of our dispensation are careful in their language, humble in their testimony, but they have seen the Lord. The discerning listener can tell that their testimony is no less sure than that of Joseph Smith or Sidney Rigdon. Consider the following statements from some latter-day apostles. Elder James E. Faust said, “I understand that a chief requirement for the holy apostleship is to be a personal witness of Jesus as the Christ and the Divine Redeemer. Perhaps on that basis alone, I can qualify.” (“Response to the Call,” Ensign, Nov. 1978, 20) Similarly, Elder Neal A. Maxwell declared, “Humbly, as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, I say to you not only that Jesus lived, but that he lives-with all that those words imply!” (“Our Acceptance of Christ,” Ensign, June 1984, 69)

We should feel privileged to hear the testimony of those who have seen with their eyes and heard with their ears. Even now, we can hear the witness of Joseph Smith echoing in the testimonies of the latter-day apostles and prophets.

Ezra Taft Benson
As one of His latter-day witnesses, I testify that He lives today. He is a resurrected Being. He is our Savior, our Lord, the very Son of God. I testify that He will come again as our glorified, resurrected Lord. That day is not far distant. (“The Meaning of Easter,” Ensign, Apr. 1992, 4)

Howard W. Hunter
As an ordained Apostle and special witness of Christ, I give to you my solemn witness that Jesus Christ is in fact the Son of God. He is the Messiah prophetically anticipated by Old Testament prophets. He is the Hope of Israel. (“An Apostle’s Witness of Christ,” Ensign, Jan. 1984, 70)

Spencer W. Kimball
I know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. I know that. I know that the gospel which we teach is the gospel of Jesus Christ and the church to which we belong is the church of Jesus Christ. (Ensign, Nov. 1974, p. 113.)

Heber J. Grant
We have this testimony to bear to the world, that men in our day have seen Jesus Christ; that he has restored to the earth the gospel of life and salvation. (Conference Report, October 1926, 5.)

Gordon B. Hinckley
To all of these testimonies we add our own. He is Jesus the Christ, the Firstborn of the Father, the Creator of the heaven and the earth, the Jehovah of ancient Israel, the promised Messiah born in Bethlehem of Judea, the healer of the sick, the teacher of the doctrine, the Redeemer of the world, the author of our salvation, the resurrected Lord who sits on the right hand of the Father. (“Do Ye Even So to Them,” Ensign, Dec. 1991, 2)

Gordon B. Hinckley
In solemnity, and with understanding of the gravity of that which we say, we add our witness to all the world of the reality of the Resurrection, that this same Jesus who rose from the grave ascended into heaven… This is our testimony, which we bear in the name of Jesus Christ, and we invite all mankind to learn it so that they may rejoice in the blessings that come from following the teachings of our resurrected Lord, the Savior of Mankind. (“The Victory over Death,” Ensign, Apr. 1997, 5)

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 22, 2015 at 6:03 am

Youngsterville,

I noticed that you did not address anything I said, refused to accept my challenge. Then you go about preaching the false teachings of your false prophets and false apostles. You now appear to be nothing more than a Mormon troll looking for sites to post your junk on. THAT is cowardly.

There are biblical qualifications to be an apostle:
1. Seen the risen Jesus. IT has been proven that Smith did not see Christ, and if he did see something it was Satan pretending. No other LDS apostle even claims to have seen Christ.

2. They had to be personally taught by Christ. Except for the false claims of Smith, no other LDS apostle claims to have been personally taught by Christ.

3. Miraculous signs confirmed them; healing for example. What LDS apostle has healed anyone or raised anyone from the dead.

Another interesting thing is that the Bible said the Apostles were the foundation of the Church (with Christ as chief cornerstone). Once a foundation is built, no more foundation is needed.

Same with prophets. First requirement is that they never have a false prophecy and yet Joseph Smith has almost 50 false prophecies that I’ve catalogued:
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/joseph-smith-prophet-part-1.html
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/joseph-smith-prophet-part-2.html
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/11/joseph-smith-prophet-part-3.html
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/11/joseph-smith-prophet-part-4.html
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/11/joseph-smith-prophet-part-5.html
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/11/joseph-smith-prophet-final-episode.html
http://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/11/another-false-prophecy-by-joseph-smith.html

Mormonism is proven to be a false belief system just by exposing their founding prophet for the fraud that he was. And other LDS prophets also had false prophecies.

Try addressing my charges next time or troll elsewhere.

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J.L. Pattison | June 22, 2015 at 9:24 am

“The prophet” said his testimony was the “last of all.”

That was true in 1832, but not true now? I have a sincere question. Do words mean anything to you?

– The “most correct” book on earth was/is full of errors and anachronisms.

– The “everlasting” covenant of plural marriage lasted only until Utah was going to be denied statehood due to their polygamy, then “everlasting” no longer meant “everlasting.”

– “Last” no longer means “last,” and “of all” no longer means “of all.”

I could go on and on and on, but the point is abundantly clear.

How can anyone believe anything Mormonism says/teaches because it always changes when politically, theologically, or socially expedient? And how can anyone have a serious discussion with you when you keep changing definitions of words and moving the goalposts?

P.S. If you want to quote your prophets, I am sure we could oblige and offer some of their “other” quotes as well. 🙂

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 22, 2015 at 9:25 am

Well said, Mr Pattison!

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youngsterville | June 22, 2015 at 6:14 pm

You still don’t get it. If you’re saying I’m changing the rules or moving goal posts, you’re very wrong about me. I hold firm to my positions on these things:

How to know a true prophet of God –
You them by the fruits of their labors. It’s not always their fault things change and when God himself changes things he’s certainly not wrong. I only knew of one Prophet of God who was 100 percent pure in his teachings and that was Jesus Christ himself.
How to know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true –

I know it’s true without any doubt because I have lived by its Gospel for nearly 40 years and it’s been more fulfilling then any other alternative anywhere by incomparable margins. I have personal revelation daily and witness frequent miracles in my life.

Most importantly is that I have got get you to understand how the big picture of Mormonism works, it works as though every principle and doctrine is the life flow of every thing we as human beings depend on. Every part from:

– The way people think, live, breath, survive, thrive, unite, enlight, socialize, economize and extra. My Church makes it all work seamlessly.
– as a church we are also part of the world as a whole. We deal with the pitfalls of governments and civility. We also are exposed to an enormous opposition from the adversary because he knows we are his biggest threat.
– we as a church are learning and growing closer to understanding Gods Kingdom and what it would require for us to live in a perfect society.
– if I were to imagine the city of Enoch being a type of Utopia that allowed for everyone to be synchronized with the order of God well enough to be welcomed into his kingdom. I am 100% certain that I am well on my way with my understanding of my church.

Finally I want explain why I prefer to say it’s my church. – we all have our own individual level of progression in this eternal plan of salvation and so it’s very important to me to not misrepresent anyone else and also make it clear that I have done my own due diligence to achieve the level of progression that I have achieved. Just as no one except Jesus Christ is free from hypocrisy neither am I. I sometimes catch myself being overly boastful and I more times find myself undermining myself to make my self seem less aware then I really am.

I prayerfully turn to the scriptures daily to keep these imbalances more in line with the perfect Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

2 Nephi 4:35

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Mark Anthony Escalera | June 22, 2015 at 10:32 pm

Malachi 3:6, “For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.”

Youngsterville, carefully note 2 Corinthians 11:4, 14, 15,

“For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. … 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.”

Simple English, not a fake book written in a fake, made-up language called Reformed Egyptian, says this, “If ANYBODY preaches a different gospel than what Paul (a true apostle) preached, they are to be accursed. This wipes out EVERY “prophet” and “apostle” of the LDS system of religion.

By the way, 2 Nephi 4:35 comes from:
1. James 1:5
2. James 4:3
3. 3 verses in the Psalms, including Psalm 4:1
4. Habakkuk 1:12

Amazing how similar, even identical the words of the fraudster just happen to sound EXACTLY like the words of the apostle James, the prophet Habakkuk, and the Psalmist David.

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youngsterville | June 23, 2015 at 12:58 am

Now you’ve largely missed the point of 2 Nephi 4:35 because those scripture references you provided, which I was actually rather was hoping you were right about, are not anything like 2 Nephi 4:35. However when ever there are direct quotes from the bible within the Book of Mormon it is because these scriptures originated from the same original people of ancient Israel. The repetition throughout many different religions is clear that these teachings go way back. I never used to like the repetitions but I now know the purpose of scripture is to bring us closer to God and we get that assurance through the company of the Holy Ghost. I accept my church’s teachings of exhalation because I’ve learned to trust the the clear picture that is provided through the teachings of the prophets and their priceless views on scriptures that provide a spirit far more powerful and true to the likeness of a loving creator than any other churches teachings. The same scripture taught through any other churches leaders are far more vague and missing a lot of substance. Putting it all together as a whole with the support of the Book of Mormon really does provide a substantially more loving picture of our savior and our Father in heaven. I know you don’t like bible bashing anymore than I do but when it all comes down to it we are both praising the same God and Jesus Christ is lord and king of this world. However your church helps you understand the principles Christ taught about love and charity and faith and humility is great and will be of much assistance to you and all you share it with. You can count on me as for how my church brings me to understanding the pure love of Christ, I will honor my beliefs and strive to increase in the command to be ye perfect even as my father in heaven is perfect.
It’s great to know that scientists are now unlocking the secrets of development as to how our brian works with our ability to instantly mimic that which we are exposed to. Just imagine being with other people so close to God that we actually start experiencing what it would be like to be perfect as in without sin as Jesus Christ of was…
I also must say,
No more bible bashing because it’s not the way to contend with beliefs. The way to contend is with what actually works in getting us closer to Gods kingdom. I happen to know plenty of atheist who feel it very easy to disprove the bible and find very viable complaints against its orgins and its contradictions. I have been able to work through all of their issues with the bible because of my understanding of how revelation works. One particularly intelligent atheist friend of mine used to be a Seventh day Adventist for most of his life and he’s and old man. He has worked it out so well that the bible is complete rubbish because he assumed everyone believes in the bible within a small perimeter of thinking. He’d never known of Lds doctrine nor was he prepared to face someone like myself who had been well grounded in my convictions. To make a long story short he’s now allowing me to teach him and finding much enjoyment learning of the much broader picture he was never aware of before…

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youngsterville | June 23, 2015 at 1:33 am

I am not just trolling I’m specifically interested in this and only this blog. I was really put off by this blog being so absurdly ambitious and undermining of the Latter-day Saints. We know our religion and I’m sure there are those who struggle with trials that run across this nonsense and are put off into some destructive path that alters their entire life for the worse. It’s why I’m here to say you’re the ones that are in the wrong in every way possible you are the Destroying Angels because most of the what you say is your own misunderstanding of what was actually going on in the minds of the early prophets of the church. Joseph Smith for example misunderstood his calling to build up Zion on all four corners of the earth. He did what he was asked but he didn’t fully understand until he was close to his martyrdom that he would not live to see the completion of what he was asked to do.
Brigham Young was under a lot of pressures to continue the work and did an amazing Job and so on and so forth. Now look at the church today right now in today’s world the church is on the frontlines of every natural disaster in the world. FEMA’s first rule actually in their official plans for when arriving at a disaster is to find the Mormons in the area. When Katrina hit the Lds helping hands were the first and only one on the scene for quite a while with 12 semi trucks to assist. All they did was what anyone should have done and responded as soon as it hit the news that a major hurricane was coming. It obviously got much worse than anyone expected which caused even further delay of others to come to the rescue. I had friends all the way from California that were over there helping and saw the devastation first hand.

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Mark Anthony Escalera | June 23, 2015 at 7:01 am

Youngsterville, you are more than welcome to stay and read here and learn the truth of Scripture. However, we have been gracious to entertain your comments and answered your questions, but you have yet to return the same courtesy. We have posited several areas that have been given no explanation by you or any other Mormon because what you state is merely blind, deluded faith. It is not based on any facts.

There is no planet Kolob.
There were never any peoples called Lamanites or Nephites.
Joseph Smith was a fraud who started a following based on works and fear.
He along with several presidents, apostles, and prophets of the LDS system were nothing more than land-grabbing adulterers.

More importantly, Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God and if your belief is not in Christ alone by grace through faith alone in the finished work on the cross called Calvary, you will never see heaven. Jesus and Satan are not brothers who were born in some spirit form to the sexual union between God the Father and one of His multiple wives. God the Father did NOT come down physically and have intercourse with the virgin Mary in order that she might give birth to one of the spirit babies called Jesus.

Mary, according to your belief system, had to have been a spirit baby born to God the Father and one of the wives in His heavenly harem. This means that no matter which way you want to stretch the story, God the Father had to have committed incest with His own spirit daughter in her earthly form so that she could get pregnant with Jesus, who would then actually be one of her half-brothers.

Can you not see the problem with such wickedness? The lies have to be expanded in order to try and gain some semblance of decency, but the LDS system fails miserably.

As for the LDS showing up at every natural disaster, that means NOTHING in the light of eternity. Here lies another difference between what you believe and biblical Christianity. The LDS system teaches that to get further up the celestial ladder you have to do good works. So, when you get a bunch of LDS together helping at disasters, the LDS teaching makes it clear that they are gaining “brownie points” which inevitably puts them ahead of all the other LDS followers who do not do the same level of good works. What a vicious circle!

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Mark Anthony Escalera | June 23, 2015 at 7:07 am

This reply will be short —

You do NOT worship the God of the Bible, nor do you worship the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible.

I do not engage in Bible bashing, but I do seek to engage the hearts and minds of people who are being duped by a set of writings that have been proven totally in error, without any historical backing, and a mere plagiarizing of much of the Authorized Version of Scriptures.

There is ONLY one thing that “works” to get us closer to God’s Kingdom. It is called the gospel that was preached by the apostle Paul. I would recommend you start with Romans and pray that God will give you understanding.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 23, 2015 at 9:36 am

youngsterville

How to know a true prophet of God –
You them by the fruits of their labors.

Smith’s fruits were at least 50 false prophecies, adultery masked as God-commanded polygamy, arrogance, murder, and millions of LDS people bound for eternal damnation.

I only knew of one Prophet of God who was 100 percent pure in his teachings and that was Jesus Christ himself.

Every prophet in the Bible was 100% pure in is prophecies.

How to know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true –
I know it’s true without any doubt because I have lived by its Gospel for nearly 40 years and it’s been more fulfilling then any other alternative anywhere by incomparable margins.

So you determine it is true based on your feelings?!?

I have personal revelation daily and witness frequent miracles in my life.

Really? God talks to you daily? Would you care to enlighten us as to a true miracle you’ve witnesses?

Most importantly is that I have got get you to understand how the big picture of Mormonism works, it works as though every principle and doctrine is the life flow of every thing we as human beings depend on.

Um, no you haven’t. In fact, all you’ve done is give YOUR viewpoint.

Every part from:
– The way people think, live, breath, survive, thrive, unite, enlight, socialize, economize and extra. My Church makes it all work seamlessly.

So you follow a system of rules and you think that saves you?

– as a church we are also part of the world as a whole. We deal with the pitfalls of governments and civility.
 And no one else does?

We also are exposed to an enormous opposition from the adversary because he knows we are his biggest threat.

Wrong. The opposition you face comes from REAL Christians who expose the LDS for the fraud that it is. OUR adversary is the devil, who concocted the LDS faith.

– we as a church are learning and growing closer to understanding Gods Kingdom and what it would require for us to live in a perfect society.

No you are not. You are growing closer to eternal damnation.

Finally I want explain why I prefer to say it’s my church. – we all have our own individual level of progression in this eternal plan of salvation and so it’s very important to me to not misrepresent anyone else and also make it clear that I have done my own due diligence to achieve the level of progression that I have achieved.

You will never be saved by your works. God says our works are as dirty menstrual cloths. (Isa. 64:6) There is no “eternal progression” except that you originate at conception and then pass into eternity — either saved or damned.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 23, 2015 at 9:46 am

youngsterville

I am not just trolling I’m specifically interested in this and only this blog. I was really put off by this blog being so absurdly ambitious and undermining of the Latter-day Saints.

Really? in what what is it “absurdly ambitious” when all it does is cite factual evidence against the LDS? You troll blogs which expose the truth so that you can preach your false teachings as you play the victim card.

We know our religion and I’m sure there are those who struggle with trials that run across this nonsense and are put off into some destructive path that alters their entire life for the worse.

The only destructive path here is the LDS, which will only lead to eternal damnation for its members. You call the truth nonsense? You have yet in any of your comments to actually address the issues raised by this blog post.

It’s why I’m here to say you’re the ones that are in the wrong in every way possible you are the Destroying Angels because most of the what you say is your own misunderstanding of what was actually going on in the minds of the early prophets of the church.

You have yet to demonstrate in what way we are in error. Interesting term you’ve chosen — Destroying Angels. This is what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young called the “Danites,” their personal “SS” who persecuted and often murdered those who exposed them for the false prophets they were. There is no misunderstanding by us — we are able to read and understand the language written and spoken by these men.

Joseph Smith for example misunderstood his calling to build up Zion on all four corners of the earth. He did what he was asked but he didn’t fully understand until he was close to his martyrdom that he would not live to see the completion of what he was asked to do.

I love your revisionist history. And, by the way, Smith was not a martyr. Martyrs don’t die in a gunfight.

I don’t have to add to previous comments as to why the Mormons are so eager to do good works — “brownie points” to help them on their way to godhood or servants of gods.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 23, 2015 at 10:09 am

youngsterville

However when ever there are direct quotes from the bible within the Book of Mormon it is because these scriptures originated from the same original people of ancient Israel.

Nonsense. They originated from the KJV, plagiarized from the KJV. Again I ask you to explain how an “inspired translation” from so-called “Reformed Egyptian” (fake language no one has ever found evidence of) directly to the English language of 1830, becomes virtually word-for-word identical with the 1611 English translation from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek; how do the words become the same? (Especially explain how the italicized words in the KJV – those not in the original but put there by the translators to help make sense – are included in the Book of Mormon.)

You continually refuse to address any of our arguments against the LDS.

I accept my church’s teachings of exhalation because I’ve learned to trust the the clear picture that is provided through the teachings of the prophets and their priceless views on scriptures that provide a spirit far more powerful and true to the likeness of a loving creator than any other churches teachings.

So you’ve accepted your faith not from any rational examination of its history or origin of its doctrines, or even how it is in total opposition to the Bible, rather you’ve accepted it because of your feelings about it?!? You refuse to examine the occultic background of Joseph Smith, his claims of finding money through “money-digging” while defrauding his “customers,” you refuse to examine why he even came up with the BOM idea in the first place, you refuse to examine his false prophecies and his profligate lifestyle, you refuse to examine Brigham Young’s wars on anyone who disagreed with him and the many murders he had committed, etc. BUT, you sure feel good about your faith!

The same scripture taught through any other churches leaders are far more vague and missing a lot of substance.

Really? Nice assertion without any examples to back it up. Perhaps you’ve never truly examined the teachings of a true Christian teacher.

Putting it all together as a whole with the support of the Book of Mormon really does provide a substantially more loving picture of our savior and our Father in heaven.

On the contrary. What you have is a confusing jumble which continually changes as your fickle god can’t decide what he really wants for his people. What you have is a confusing mess of “scripture” which contradicts each other — the BOM, D&C, POGP, all contradicting the Bible and each other.

I know you don’t like bible bashing anymore than I do but when it all comes down to it we are both praising the same God and Jesus Christ is lord and king of this world.

We don’t bash the Bible, but the Mormons have based their entire faith on bashing the Bible. And, no, we are not praising the same God and Jesus. The LDS god is an exalted man who sinned and had to work his way to godhood and lives on another planet. The God of the Bible has always been eternal, is the only real god in existence, never sinned or worked His way to being God, since He has always been God. The LDS god has eternal sex with multitudes of women, and as pointed out above, even had sex with one of his spiritual daughters in order to provide a “tabernacle” for Jesus.

The LDS Jesus is not born of a virgin, is a created being and is the literal brother of all angels, demons, and humans. The Biblical Jesus is eternal and became man by way of a virgin birth. HE created the angels (including the fallen angels). The LDS Jesus only atoned for Adam’s sins while the Biblical Jesus atone for man’s sins.

These and other differences are enormous. There is no salvation in the LDS christ because he is a figment of your imagination.

No more bible bashing because it’s not the way to contend with beliefs.

None of us have bashed the Bible, so quit making that accusation.

I happen to know plenty of atheist who feel it very easy to disprove the bible and find very viable complaints against its orgins [sic] and its contradictions. I have been able to work through all of their issues with the bible because of my understanding of how revelation works.

AH, but rather than really defend what the Bible says and actually demonstrate that there are no contradictions or problems with the Bible’s origins, etc, you just claim progressive “revelation,” leaving the atheist with lies and no closer to the truth than he began.

One particularly intelligent atheist friend of mine used to be a Seventh day Adventist for most of his life and he’s and old man. He has worked it out so well that the bible is complete rubbish because he assumed everyone believes in the bible within a small perimeter of thinking. He’d never known of Lds doctrine nor was he prepared to face someone like myself who had been well grounded in my convictions. To make a long story short he’s now allowing me to teach him and finding much enjoyment learning of the much broader picture he was never aware of before…

So he went from ignorance in one cult to ignorance in another. He’s gone from the frying pan into the actual fire. Still hell bound.

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youngsterville | June 23, 2015 at 10:54 am

Okay I’ve learned a little about you but I hope you’ve learned something about me. I would have liked to entertained to wishes for me to answer your questions but with such a contentious spirit about it we both know it wouldn’t be inviting of the Holy Spirit to testify any truth of anything.
I will bid thee my farewell and share a bit of what most important to my acceptance of Joseph Smith. He restored the priesthood in its proper order and authority. He gave us the New and Everlasting Covenant of Eternal Marriage and connected the obtaining of the highest levels of priesthood with the entering to the covenant of eternal Marriage.

I felt this could be an appropriate scripture for our final interactions here on this blog.

From Ether chapter 12
36 And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity.

37 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.

38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

And this from the book of Moroni chapter 10
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

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youngsterville | June 23, 2015 at 11:35 am

What is that Mormons are doing that is so bad that it would equate to their eternal damnation? NOTHING BUT QUITE THE OPPOSITE!!!!

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 23, 2015 at 11:37 am

What is that Mormons are doing that is so bad that it would equate to their eternal damnation? NOTHING BUT QUITE THE OPPOSITE!!!!

Worshiping a false god and false christ of their own making (idolatry) and rejecting the true God and Christ of the Bible, in whom the only way of salvation is found.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | June 23, 2015 at 12:02 pm

Youngsterville,

I would have liked to entertained to wishes for me to answer your questions but with such a contentious spirit about it we both know it wouldn’t be inviting of the Holy Spirit to testify any truth of anything.

The Holy Spirit is guiding only Christians, not Mormons — who He does not recognize. To give this excuse for refusal to engage our questions is nothing less than cowardly. You came only to preach your false doctrine and had no intention of seeking the truth.

He restored the priesthood in its proper order and authority. He gave us the New and Everlasting Covenant of Eternal Marriage and connected the obtaining of the highest levels of priesthood with the entering to the covenant of eternal Marriage.

Joseph Smith didn’t restore any priesthood because there was no priesthood to restore. In the Christian faith we have a priesthood of believers, and Christ is our priest before God. The Bible says there is no marriage in heaven, yet you disregard what Jesus says and accept what your false prophet claimed to cover up his serial adultery.

Your citations from the BOM have no more value than any other false religious writings.

Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

Nice plagiarism from more false prophets. Smith did NOTHING to advance the Church of Christ, but he did everything to advance his own carnal lusts and greed. He has done nothing for the salvation of me, rather he has led millions into eternal damnation. The Book of Mormon was not a translation of anything but Smith’s imagination coupled with plagiarizing the Bible, as has been proven for over a century and a half. If it has the “fulness of the everlasting gospel,” then why are none of the LDS doctrines found in it?!?! Smith lived and died a fraud.

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J.L. Pattison | July 5, 2015 at 8:36 am

Many words have been spilled and yet I am no closer to knowing if LDS prophets were wrong THEN or NOW, and whether the original 1830 Book of Mormon is correct or the revised, sanitized version used today.

Since words obviously have no meaning and can change with the seasons, I suppose I’ll never know the answers to the above questions because truths of Mormonism yesterday are not truths of Mormonism today, and truths of Mormonism today will not be truths of Mormonism tomorrow.

And if anyone points out that truth constantly changes in Mormonism (and Jehovah’s Witnesses, et al) then that person is simply dismissed as someone who “doesn’t understand.”

How convenient.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 5, 2015 at 1:39 pm

Well said, J.L., well said!

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youngsterville | July 6, 2015 at 3:47 pm

Yes you can certainly say you do not understand Mormonism because you only interpreted things in your own words which are very far from the truth. We had a prophet pre-1830 and we have a prophet today and the prophets have done better than a hotbed in the building up of Gods kingdom here on Earth and most importantly the true prophets of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have lifted the saints and even the entire world to a closer understanding of Jesus Christ… The United States of America would not even exist without the true Mormons known as the American Indians….

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youngsterville | July 6, 2015 at 3:49 pm

Whoops I meant better than anyone else not what ever hotbed is 🙂

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 6, 2015 at 3:54 pm

Youngsterville, I thought you were giving up?!?! You really need to.

Look, first the American Indians were not Mormons. DNA proves that they are descended from Orientals, not Hebrews.

Secondly, in order to be a prophet of God, the prophet cannot err in his prophecies, and yet I have proven on my blog (which you refuse to examine) that Smith had close to 50 failed/false prophecies, which means he could not be a prophet of God.

Thirdly, LDS prophets since Smith have had no better record with their own prophecies. They are all false prophets.

You really need to quit spewing the Mormon line and do some REAL investigating into the origin of Joseph Smith’s ideology and the fraudulent nature of the Book of Mormon. I did that and ended up leaving the LDS church because of what I discovered about them being a false belief system founded by a known occultic necromancer who developed his story about the BOM most likely as a money-making scheme.

Please open you mind to the truth. Otherwise you will die in your sins and be eternally damned in Hell.

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Mickey Merrie | July 6, 2015 at 6:32 pm

Dude, you seriously need to stop! You are losing it. Mormon Indians?!?! That gives an entirely new perspective on the name Sitting Bull…

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fleebabylon | July 7, 2015 at 5:15 am

Was walking through the park and two mormon missionaries gave me a tract with a picture of their main ‘temple’ while inviting me to their local ‘temple’. I asked why, they said because we could learn about God and how my family could be together forever (seeker sensitive pragmatists they are). At the end of exhorting them over their false powerless gospel they told me ‘but we’re christians and are telling people about Jesus too’. I said ‘no you’re not, you told me about a temple you built, and God does not dwell in temples built with humans hands.’

youngsterville – God does not dwell in your temples built with human hands, many deceived people and religious demons do but the one true God does not. He abhors what you are doing by choosing religion over him. Dismiss this as mere words now but it’s an awful fact you will face on judgment day except you repent.

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J.L. Pattison | July 7, 2015 at 8:09 am

Youngster,

I actually DO understand Mormonism. That’s why I have never become one.

I’ve known numerous Mormons over the years and had many discussions with them. And I have often said that I’ve never met a Mormon I didn’t like. In fact, as I write this I am in the middle of a week-long camping trip with several Mormons (including an LDS bishop and . . . come to think of it, the Mormons on this camping trip actually outnumber the rest of us).

I have also investigated Mormonism for many years (much of which I’ve done using their own published materials).

What I DON’T understand is how anyone who truly looks at Mormonism with a rational, open, and logical mind, can continue to claim it holds any truth.

What I DON’T understand is how the “most correct book on earth” still required almost 4,000 corrections, alterations, and changes in doctrine (yet still contains numerous anachronisms that have never been “corrected” and whose supposed cities and battle locations have never been found by archeologists).

What I DON’T understand is how an “everlasting” doctrine of plural marriage (which was also a requirement to gain entrance into heaven) can be null and void just fifty years after its supposedly delivered from God. Last time I checked, “everlasting” meant longer than fifty years.

What I DON’T understand is how Mormonism can teach a doctrine one day, then completely contradict that doctrine years later and Mormons accept it without question. (When a politician flip flops like this, WE rightly call THEM liars . . . when a Mormon does this, THEY claim WE just don’t understand them.)

See, it’s not Mormonism I don’t understand. I understand it all too well. It’s how, in light of all the facts, people like you can still cling to it and defend it.

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youngsterville | July 8, 2015 at 4:40 am

It’s in your nature to be anti-Mormon.
Do me a favor if you could and tell me a couple of your so called false prophecies from Joseph Smith. Be sure not to mix up the ones that are completely false with ones that are just not completely proven to have been fully satisfied yet.
I’m not your idea of what your typical Mormon would be. I’ve been through the wringer myself with a lot of opposition in my life and especially anti- Mormon attacks throughout my life. It’s soothing to me to hear what you guys have to say so that I can continually renew my confidence in my own testimony and in my own understanding of My Church and my beliefs system. You guys are actually pretty awesome in my opinion for what you have to go on even though I still claim your underestimation of the possibility that the Nephites and Lamenites ever did exist. The DNA thing actually proves very little and even if it did who’s to say your proof is absolute in deciding the legitimacy of the Lamenites having any connection to the Native Americans. You claim you know more about My Church than I do and I claim My Church is my living testimony. As far as LDS history goes from a general outsiders point of view, yes you are very observant and I can learn a lot from you’re diverse perspectives. That’s why I too through a wrench into your program just to keep it fare to you by not allowing you to think you are the final stopping place for the inquiring minds of Mormonism as if you’re the all knowing ones.
Joseph smith never claimed to be the all knowing one and not even Jesus Christjad ever claimed he knew everything. Jesus him self claimed just that only the Father should know the hour of the second coming. He never claimed to be the all knowing one. Jesus Christ was recorded saying in Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Jesus Christ was perfect and Joseph Smith was not perfect but still God chose and entrusted Joseph Smith to bring forth great things, absolutely amazing things. Things so amazing that we still today are able to understand him and relate to him and appreciate a great value in him.
I would love to tell you how much I am looking forward to telling you how undermining you are about your claims to false Mormon prohets but I really do wish you’d just figure it all out on your own because it’s very easy for me, like second nature even. I’ve been prepared by good parents who taught me from the scriptures and explained Even the journal of discourses to me from a very young age. I’ve know about blacks from a very young age. I’ve known about life on other planets from a very young age. I’ve known about the proper use of a death menalty from a very young age. I have even known about the complexities of polygamy and how important it was at the time even though it’s not ideal living conditions it had its purpose at the time. Polygamy is the most difficult one for people to really understand but it’s my specialty for explaining all because of my parents teachings. You take it to a whole other meaning when you compare Brigham Youngs accertion to enter into plural marriage to enter into heaven. It’s not needed now but it might be in Heaven why take it further than we know. We only know what we have to work with. Which is of a man refuses a calling from the church he himself is running a risk of consequences. If you want to know do your own due diligence and ask God for yourself. He’ll probably tell you to look a lot closer at the reasons actual Mormons give. If you want to discuss anything about you’re topics here or even any others I will entertain you with my own response and non other. I can expound a whole lot more on the Native American thing too but it’s actually a whole separate discussion. The highlights I’ve seen of anti Mormon rubbish are all misinterpretations of actual leadership given to a prophet of God to the people of his time.
SO STOP PERVERTING AND MOLESTING THE TRUTH BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT PERFECT AND I AM NOT PERFECT BUT THATS WHY WE NEED A PROPHET OF GOD TO HELP GUIDE US TOWARD THE PATH OF PERFECTION. How do you know a prophet of God? A PROPHET OF GOD ALWAYS HELPS YOU TO BE MORE PERFECTLY IN-LINE WITH GOD THE FATHERs EXPECTATIONS THAN ANY OTHER PERSON ON EARTH CAN DO. REALLY THOUGH, NATIVE AMERICANS DID ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION SAVE THE U.S. AND THERE IS PROOF THAT THEY HELD A KEY ROLE ALONG SIDE THE FOUNDING FATHERS IN THE FORMATION OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE. LOOK UP THE IROQUOIS CONFEDERACY… Also the visitors George Washington himself had are likely to be the three Nephites who chose to stay living here on earth. If you want to get down and dirty lets do it right bring on the good stuff. You haven’t got your ducks in a row if you think you can take on the most full gospel to ever exist in the entire history of the world…

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 11, 2015 at 10:49 am

Youngsterville:

“It’s in your nature to be anti-Mormon.”

Thanks for that great ad hominem. Should I say it is in YOUR nature to be anti-Christian?

I’ll get to the false prophecies in a separate comment. But I don’t have an idea of what your typical Mormon would be. I do know from personal experience that the vast majority of Mormons are quite ignorant about the true history of the LDS church because they’ve been spoon-fed a revised history to prevent them from learning the truth.

You keep talking about “outsiders” who don’t really know your faith, but I must remind you that I am an EX-Mormon, once an “insider.”

There is no historical evidence, nor archaeological evidence that Nephites and Lamanites ever existed. NONE. The DNA is indeed conclusive, but you can’t accept the truth because it doesn’t fit your ideology.

I don’t know anyone who has ever said that Joseph Smith claimed to be all-knowing, so that is a straw man which doesn’t need to be addressed.

Your claims about what you have known about only demonstrates your choice to deny the truth. These teachings were considered from GOD, and suddenly your god changes his mind when the teachings are no longer politically expedient. Pretty fickle god you have who bends to the whims of politics.

Your comment is more of a rant than anything else. Assertions after assertions with absolutely no evidence.

_______________________________________________

Here are some easy prophecies which failed, and for which I’m sure there will be a good excuse from you to marginalize the errors or justify them in some fashion. But I have about 50 more for you, and you will have extreme difficulty explaining them away.

D&C Section 84:1-5, 31 (Sep. 1832): “A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun…. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city of New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house…which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed….”

Was New Jerusalem built during that generation? Was the temple built at the temple lot during that generation? The answer is NO to both questions. Therefore this prophecy failed to come to pass; i.e., it is a false prophecy.

D&C Section 87 (25 Dec 1832): This is the famous “Civil War Prophecy.” At the time of this writing the newspapers were writing about the impending outbreak of civil war and the Army was on alert, so Smith was only partially regurgitating what was in the news of the time.
1. Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2. And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4. And is shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5. And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6. And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7. That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of the Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

Did the Civil War “shortly come to pass?” No, it was almost 30 years.

Did all nations get involved in the U.S. Civil War? Not at all — not even close.

Was war “poured out upon all nations?” Nope, we didn’t get a “world war” until 1914.

Did the slaves rise up against their masters? Perhaps a few did, but the implication of the prophecy is “all slaves” or at least a majority of them.

Were there earthquake and plague and famine during the Civil War and until the “full end of all nations?” Absolutely not.

FALSE PROPHECY.

D&C Section 88: 87-88 (27 Dec 1832): For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree.

More than 65,600 days have passed (as of Jan. 2015) since that prophecy was given. By any standard this is more than “not many days.” Did this prophecy come to pass? NO! FALSE PROPHECY.

Let’s do one more:
D&C Section 111 (Aug. 6, 1836 in Salem, MA): I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality…. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them…. This place you may obtain by hire. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city; for there are more treasures than one for you in this city.

Did Smith or any other LDS leader find treasures in Salem? NO

Did any LDS take control of Salem either then or any time since? NO

Only 13 people were baptized; can that be called “many people” gathered out of Salem? NO

Did they get any gold or silver from Salem? NO

Since none of these things took place as specified, doesn’t that make this a false prophecy?

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fleebabylon | July 12, 2015 at 6:22 am

Mormonism is satanic and delusional.

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youngsterville | July 13, 2015 at 12:24 am

Yes Mormons would seem to be completely delusional to someone who does not find value in the abundance of eternal truths that we do find within the church. It’s wrong of of to expect you to think anything other than that but I still wish you’d come just a little closer to realizing one thing. A person, any person with half a brain could very quickly use your same destructive tactics in disproving the entire Holy Bible. It’s been done in many different types of ways however with the same defense I use to validate the teachings of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the doctrine and covenants and the pearl of great price I also am able to throw off the most intelligent and most well organized Anti- Christians. The same thing I teach them is what I’ve been trying to teach you all along which is its expedient to know how revelation works. The D&C quotes you made from Joseph Smith are ones that even Joseph Smith did not understand fully. They did work for the time and they did not lead the saints into apostasy or into anything that would take them further from God. They in fact did help in the building up of Gods kingdom which always is an investment with unmatchable returns. Those revelations are still in the process of being fulfilled and if you look around you we are headed to a world war and a civil war and even a very large breakdown of racial tensions. The black Americans are making demands that whites are seeing as bias and vise versa… I do know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a plethora of eternal truths but a person must go to God with nothing wavering to know receive such personal knowledge through the power of the Holy Ghost.
I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a safe haven for anyone who’s looking for a deeper understanding of the mysteries of God. I myself have searched high and even low for all sorts of answers and I have always come to one conclusion which is this church provides a direct path to even the most difficult questions. A person could get very lost in the waves of the vast open ocean of doubt and with the restoration of the this gospel we need look no further. We have a very loving Heavenly Father who leads and guides us and has sent his us his son and our savior Jesus Christ to be our redeemer and master. I would be spinning in circles endlessly had it not been for the unmatchable strength I have seen in the leadership of the church. The apostles and prophets of the church are my strongest reliance of just how firm of a foundation the church has. If you can think of anything that would cause you to doubt the foundation of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please pray about it and then search diligently for that assurance that is so important to have for yourself and also feel free to ask lots of questions to those who do not mean to hold back the knowledge and truth from you. Only ask those who are able to provide the spirit of truth rather than the spirit of doubt.
Here’s a simple truth and quote from Dieter F. Uchdorf “The thing about truth is that it exists beyond belief. IT IS TRUE EVEN IF NOBODY BELIVES IT”….

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 13, 2015 at 1:14 pm

Youngsterville,

the abundance of eternal truths that we do find within the church.

There are NO truths in the LDS cult. NONE. You keep asserting truths but we keep demonstrating the error of you claims.

A person, any person with half a brain could very quickly use your same destructive tactics in disproving the entire Holy Bible.

Wrong. It’s been tried. For example, the peoples of the Bible have been proven to exist historically, while the peoples of the BOM have been proven to not have existed historically. The geography of the Bible has been proven, no geography of the BOM has been found. Archaeology has so far proven most of the Bible’s claims, but have proven none of the BOM’s claims.

I also am able to throw off the most intelligent and most well organized Anti- Christians.

What a bunch of hubris. First, anti-Mormons are not anti-Christian, because Mormons are not Christian by any biblical definition.

its expedient to know how revelation works.

The Bible says revelation works by 100% accuracy of what the prophet said. In Mormonism, you make all sorts of excuses why every prophecy by Smith or Young failed.

The D&C quotes you made from Joseph Smith are ones that even Joseph Smith did not understand fully.

What’s to understand? Was neither he nor any Mormon able to read and comprehend the English language as dictated by God?

They did work for the time and they did not lead the saints into apostasy or into anything that would take them further from God.

You’ve got to be kidding me. They were false prophecies as demonstrated and yet you say they worked “for the time”?!?! I have to admit, that is a new defense I’ve never heard before.

Those revelations are still in the process of being fulfilled and if you look around you we are headed to a world war and a civil war and even a very large breakdown of racial tensions. The black Americans are making demands that whites are seeing as bias and vise versa…

The LDS church has always taught that the “Civil War Prophecy” was about the Civil war, which was why it was drug out immediately for the war. The rebellion was in South Carolina (where all people following the politics of the time had said it would happen), and the world war was to start in SC according to this prophecy, and it was north vs south according to this prophecy (which, again, was known to anyone who had even a modicum of history and political education at the time) whereas any future civil war in the US will NOT be north vs south but conservatives vs liberals. It prophecies slaves against masters, which has not existed since 1865. Quit deluding yourself.

I do know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a plethora of eternal truths but a person must go to God with nothing wavering to know receive such personal knowledge through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Typical cop-out. We can’t know the LDS truths unless we have faith in the LDS truths.

I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a safe haven for anyone who’s looking for a deeper understanding of the mysteries of God.

No it isn’t. It is nothing but worship of a made-up god-man who lives on another planet. Nothing mysterious about that.

I myself have searched high and even low for all sorts of answers and I have always come to one conclusion which is this church provides a direct path to even the most difficult questions.

Obviously not true, since those of us who left the LDS also searched for the answers and found them.

the restoration of the this gospel

You can’t “restore” what was never lost. The LDS gospel doesn’t even resemble the Gospel in the Bible.

If you can think of anything that would cause you to doubt the foundation of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please pray about it and then search diligently for that assurance that is so important to have for yourself and also feel free to ask lots of questions to those who do not mean to hold back the knowledge and truth from you. Only ask those who are able to provide the spirit of truth rather than the spirit of doubt.

I did pray about it and God gave me the answer that the LDS was not of God.

Now, I think it is rather amusing that you never responded to the other three false prophecies I posted. After all, what response can you have — they were proven to be false.

Actual truth is true whether people believe it or not. But there is no truth with the LDS

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fleebabylon | July 13, 2015 at 5:04 pm

Those who are of God believe Jesus Christ and His word. You believe the words of your lying prophets who are inspired by your father the devil. It is no wonder such teaching makes so much sense to you. It is of the same spirit and heritage as you. You, your false church, and false gospel are accursed. I will not even view this thread again, but our words here are recorded for eternity and will follow you to the judgment seat. So I leave you with this and it will wither be an eternal blessing to you or witness against you as you’re cast into hell:

Come out from the man made temple / church system full of demonic religion that you commit harlotry with. Give yourself to Jesus Christ alone who is worthy. He will cleanse your mind from your religious shame and perversion and make you a new creation to the glory and praise of God.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

2 Corinthians 6;16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”

Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
“I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”

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Mickey Merrie | July 14, 2015 at 3:44 pm

Utah still ranks as the number one state in the union for 2 specific facts.
1. Highest population of Mormons.
2. Highest rate of population use of anti-depressants.

Hmmmm… That’s some god they got out there!

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youngsterville | July 15, 2015 at 4:33 am

As this thread has run its course the contentious shroud of darkness has been a constant struggle. I wish to dispel such evil from these claims from prophets of old by shedding light on prophets of today.

You see the prophets Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were extraordinary men of their time but they could not have been such without the guidance from the Spirit of the Holy Ghost. The fruits of their labors are very remnant in every aspect of what the church is today however as a Mormon my conscious is clean of the difficulties those early prophets experienced. We have current prophets who are far more capable then anyone else on this earth of removing any friction between the saints of the early church and the saints of today. They are the balm between us. I only wish those who Spode the church could see the grea vastness of the early teaching in the church that has been augmented rather than changed from the pre-1830 and up until now.
The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ever growing in light and truth. I’ll end by sharing some of my favorite highlights from a talk about light and truth…
“It was less than a century ago that most astronomers assumed that our Milky Way galaxy was the only galaxy in the universe.

They supposed all that lay beyond our galaxy was an immense nothingness, an infinite void—empty, cold, and devoid of stars, light, and life.

As telescopes became more sophisticated—including telescopes that could be launched into space—astronomers began to grasp a spectacular, almost incomprehensible truth: the universe is mind-bogglingly bigger than anyone had previously believed, and the heavens are filled with numberless galaxies, unimaginably far away from us, each containing hundreds of billions of stars.3

In a very short period of time, our understanding of the universe changed forever.

Today we can see some of these distant galaxies.

We know that they are there.

They have been there for a very long time.

But before mankind had instruments powerful enough to gather celestial light and bring these galaxies into visibility, we did not believe such a thing was possible.

The immensity of the universe didn’t suddenly change, but our ability to see and understand this truth changed dramatically. And with that greater light, mankind was introduced to glorious vistas we had never before imagined.

Your personal testimony of light and truth will not only bless you and your posterity here in mortality, but it will also accompany you throughout all eternity.”- Receiving a Testimony of Light and Truth
By President Dieter F. Uchtdorf
Second Counselor in the First Presidency
___________________

This will be my last remarks on this thread. “The scriptures offer us so many doctrinal diamonds. And when the light of the Spirit plays upon their several facets, they sparkle with celestial sense and illuminate the path we are to follow.” -According to the Desire of [Our] Hearts” talk given by
Neal A. Maxwell Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

I must return to searching my scriptures now and put this shroud of darkness behind me for a time. All this debate over who’s right or wrong needs to stop because the fact remains, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
If you tell me that I’m not a Christian than we have something serious to debate. I know Jesus Christ lives and I have studied him and I exercise every attribute of his teachings in my daily life. Who in their right mind thinks they can tell me they know Jesus Christ yet will not accept me as a Christian when all I have done is do my absolute best to follow his every example. I make no claims as to being perfect but I do claim I am well on my way of progression toward being perfect and Christlike. In Jeremiah 17:10 we can see some light of truth- “I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
This entire blog was started out of undermining minds who try to distort the light of truth. Satan plays a role in everyone’s life yet we still have the opportunity to be free from satans entrapments by praying always. Always keeping a prayer in heart that is inline with our saviors mindset. The Journal of Discourses isn’t even and never has been an official church publication. Therefore anything quoted from it can only be used as a way for satan to twist and turn in anyway his powers allow.
The official statement from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints-
The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It included some doctrinal instruction but also practical teaching, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest.

Additional Information
The content of the Journal of Discourses was transcribed, sometimes inaccurately, and published between 1854 and 1886 in England. The compilation contains some statements of doctrine as well as other materials of interest to Latter-day Saints who lived far from the center of the Church, including speeches given for a variety of occasions, funeral addresses, reports from returning missionaries, prayers, and the proceedings of a trial. The Journal of Discourses was produced under the guidance of those who transcribed the materials, including George D. Watt, David W. Evans, and George W. Gibbs.

Skilled in the use of shorthand, George D. Watt had transcribed many conferences and sermons for the Deseret News. He received little pay for his work. Since the Deseret News was not generally available outside of the United States, Watt proposed to Brigham Young the idea of publishing these materials on a subscription basis. Such a plan would make the materials available to more Saints and allow Watt to earn a living with his work. President Brigham Young supported the plan, and a letter from the First Presidency was included in the first volume encouraging Church members to cooperate in the “purchase and sale” of the journal.

Questions have been raised about the accuracy of some transcriptions. Modern technology and processes were not available for verifying the accuracy of transcriptions, and some significant mistakes have been documented. The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 16, 2015 at 8:03 am

Yougsterville,

You pulled out the standard LDS “victim” card by calling this discussion “contentious.” Well, guess what — Jude told us to CONTEND for the faith, the true faith and not some cultic pretense invented by a necromancer.

There was no “evil” written against your “prophets,” rather it was factual evidence. Funny how facts tend to bother you.

They were “extraordinary men of their time” only because of their charisma and powerful presence — you don’t need the Holy Spirit for that; just look at Adolf Hitler.

Your current prophets are no better than the previous ones — they are all false prophets.

Your “church” has changed since 1830 because it continues to contradict itself in its teachings, and Smith developed his theology as he went along, and a lot of it was based on polygamy (i.e., serial adultery) which he had to justify by inventing the many gods and eternal progression, things that are TOTALLY at odds with the Bible.

Your last remarks on this thread? We’ll see.

The discussion about who’s right and who’s wrong is EXTREMELY important – your very salvation depends on worship the true God of the Bible rather than some invented man-god who lives on another planet. Your eternal salvation depends on your accept the work of the TRUE Jesus of the Bible and not one made up out of whole cloth, who resulted from your god having sex with Mary – his spiritual daughter!

We KNOW from the Word of God that Jesus will not accept your faith in idols as worship of the TRUE God, he will not accept you faith in idols of your own manufacture in place of the TRUE Jesus of the Bible. The Lord indeed searches the heart and sees that you worship false gods.

No one here on our side of the fence has distorted anything in LDS teachings. It is YOU who try to marginalize error and excuse it away so as to not have to deal with the facts which demonstrate that the LDS is a cult and not Christian.

Then you pull out the “not official publication” defense when the JOD is demonstrated to have false teaching. That won’t fly.

D&C 68:4 “And whatsoever they [LDS Elders] shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.” (November 1831 – has this been over-ridden?)

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 3:1282: “The inspired utterances of the President of the Church become binding upon members of the Church whether formally accepted as part of the written canon or not. The living prophet’s inspired words supersede and become more important to Latter-day Saints than the written canon or previous prophetic statements.” [my emphasis. Ever changing doctrines – the last guy over-rides all who came before; doctrine always in a state of flux]

JoD, 6:320 (Brigham Young): “…the words of an Apostle who magnifies his calling are the words of the Almighty to the people all the time. He never need be called in question whether he revealed the mind of the Lord or not.” [Simple hyperbole?!?!]

Gospel Truth, p.332 (George Q. Cannon): “It seems nonsensical that the Prophet of God could not deem the revelations he received authentic until they had the approval of the different quorums of the Church. They were authentic and divinely inspired whether any man or body of men received them or not.”

Mormon Doctrine 149-150 (Bruce McConkie): “Revelations given of God through his prophets…are not subject to an approving or sustaining vote of the people in order to establish their validity…. there is no provision in the Lord’s plan for the members of the Church to pass upon the validity of revelations themselves by a vote of the Church; there is nothing permitting the Church to choose which of the revelations will be binding upon it, either by a vote of the people or by other means.”

These are a few examples of LDS thoughts about previous prophetic teachings. The claim, then, that things in the JoD are not canon or not part of the standard works is a deceptive smokescreen.

It looks like much or your comments was cut and paste from your apologists. You need to think on your own. As previously noted, I have the complete JOD and everything I’ve read in it claims to be authoritative.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 16, 2015 at 10:12 am

Youngsterville, I was just going over this string and realized there is one more thing to be addressed: You claim you are offended when people say the LDS is not Christian. Well, then what about the FACT that throughout the history of the LDS THEY have continually said that another other claim to Christianity is false. Also, IN FACT, the LDS has “god” telling Joseph Smith from the beginning that “they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.’”

Now, tell me who should REALLY be offended!

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youngsterville | July 17, 2015 at 6:25 am

Glenn E. Chatfield – Just for you I’m entertaining your question of what to think of the instruction given to Joseph Smith during his first prayer to not follow any of the current churches. Even members of The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints shouldn’t think they can hide behind these words as if they are free from such sin and abomination. If a person is guilty whether being LDS or not they still need to harken to the words spoken to Joseph Smith. It’s an example of divine instruction and eternal truth. I have yet to meet anyone who’s perfectly free from hypocrisy and that’s basically what it comes down to.

Even though prophets of God are not perfect in their own life they are given special abilities to be guided by the spirit to not mislead the world. A prophet is chosen and given such a divine gift to lead the world because they are the best person in the world to be able to lead without distractions of self interests and hypocritical thinking.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a prophet of God but that doesn’t mean we automatically follow that prophet perfectly.

It is offending to you because you are of a different faith and do not recognize a prophet in the world. If you are acting as your own prophet to yourself then you could most likely be at risk of such abominations.
***This is offensive and meant to be so to make the comfortable uncomfortable and the uncomfortable more comfortable
*** and also I have not ever copied and pasted anything from Mormon apologists but from only church leaders which don’t need be bothered by titles like apologist because they represent the word of God. If you were referring to the official statement that I shared with you regarding the Journal of Discourses then you can find that at the Church’s official web site at Lds.org

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Mickey Merrie | July 17, 2015 at 12:20 pm

When reading scripture, I find that God sent prophets to 2 types of people.

1. Those who can’t hear from God.

2. Those who WON”T hear from God.

So which type of person are you Youngsterville?

Oh, by the way, false prophets are embraced by each group. As for the Elect? “My sheep know My Voice, and in no way will follow another…”

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 17, 2015 at 1:23 pm

Youngsterville,

“Apologist” doesn’t have to be a ministry – it is anyone defending the faith (or whatever they are defending). Yes, I recognized cut and paste. You might want to try to think of your own defense, use some logic and rational thinking and maybe you’d realize what a fraud the LDS is. I have the complete set of JoD on CD – I don’t need to visit the LDS site. You keep ignoring the fact that I have stated many times that I have LDS material in MY personal library. Or perhaps you just don’t read all that I write, and I’m wasting my time with the evidence I present.

NO- YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROPHETS! How many times does it have to be proven to you that your so-called prophets were liars and not prophets of God. They haven’t had a single prophecy come true!! Your prophets have done nothing BUT mislead the world into damnation and away from the true God and Jesus Christ.

The issue of you claiming to be Christian is offensive to real Christians because you made up a religion and confuse people with your claim to being Christian. It’s also offensive because your cult’s whole history is one of denigrating real Christians and saying YOU are the only true church. You complain that we are attacking you and that the LDS never attack us – that they don’t denounce us as non-Christian. Of course, anyone who dares challenge the Mormon faith is immediately labeled an “anti-Mormon,” but if they challenge the Christian they certainly don’t want to be called “anti-Christian”! It’s all part of your victimology; the claim that the LDS have been persecuted.

The fact is, that from the very founding of the Mormon faith the true Christian church has been attacked by Mormon leaders. You totally marginalized that statement by Smith, as if he didn’t really say God was condemning ALL of Christianity. But that’s exactly what he was saying

Smith claims that he was told that God considered all the creeds of Christianity to be abominations, meaning the sects themselves would be abominations; all sects of Christianity were “wrong.” Smith stated that he was told that all who were members of such sects (professors) where themselves corrupt.

This is the first thing Mormons teach – that according to God, all Christians who are not Mormons are corrupt and members of abominable sects, yet you and the rest of the LDS claim innocence.

Oh, should we just overlook the fact that for over 100 years the LDS temple ceremony presented Christian pastors as agents of Satan?!?! Let’s look at some more teaching of the LDS, which are indeed in books published by the LDS:

“After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organization, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon.” George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, 2:56.

“The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness… Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven.” Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, No. 6, pp.84-85.

“The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters…” Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, No. 3, p.44

“The people called Christians are shrouded in ignorance, and read the Scriptures with darkened understandings.” Brigham Young, October 8, 1859, Journal of Discourses, 7:333.

“Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity.” Brigham Young, July 8, 1863, Journal of Discourses, 10:230

“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing; yet these very men assume the right and power to tell others what they shall not believe in. Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.” John Taylor, 3rd LDS President, The Gospel Kingdom, p.75.

“There are a good many people who profess to be Christians, but they are not founded on the foundations that Jesus Christ himself has laid.” Joseph F. Smith, 6th LDS President, November 2, 1891 [Stake conference message], Collected Discourses, 2:305.

“That portion of the world in which so-called Christianity prevails – as distinguished from heathen or Mohammedan lands – is called Christendom. The term applies to the whole body of supposed Christian believers; as now constituted this body is properly termed apostate Christianity.” Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.131

“And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.269

“The whole Christian world, in the days of the Prophet, believed falsely that God was a mystical spirit essence that filled the immensity of space and was everywhere and nowhere in particular present – all of which proved only that they were all heretics, that the apostasy was universal. Heresy is false doctrine… There is no salvation in a false doctrine.” Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.352 (ellipses mine)

“False creeds make false churches. There is no salvation in believing a lie. Every informed, inspired, and discerning person is revolted by the absurdities and scripture-defying pronouncements in the creeds of Christendom, whose chief function is to define and set forth the nature and kind of being that God is.” Bruce McConkie, The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, 1:30, footnote 2.

“Wherever creeds are found one can also expect to find a paid clergy, the simple truths of the gospel cloaked in the dark robes of mystery, religious intolerance, and a history of bloodshed.” BYU Professor Joseph Fielding McConkie and Craig Ostler, Revelations of the Restoration, p. 964

Mormon Apostle/President/Prophet David O. McKay stated that, “the [LDS] Church is the greatest thing in the world, and the only authorized group to represent the Lord Jesus Christ in the salvation of mankind.” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay, p. 55.

So, according to the LDS, any church not part of the LDS belongs to Babylon!?!?! That we are all corrupt and will be blotted out by God? The “gates of hell” have prevailed against real Christians?!? And we are all “shrouded in ignorance”?!?! Brigham Young said WE do not meet the N.T. definition of Christians, and yet there is nothing in the teaching of the LDS that even resembles N.T. teaching!!! Yet we are the fools who know nothing about God! The LDS claims we were not founded on the foundations Jesus laid, yet it is the LDS who built new foundations for their fraudulent cult. We are called “apostate Christianity” because we have the truth. “The whole Christian world” has been declared by the LDS to be apostate and heretical; we have been declared to be false Christians who are believing a lie (which is really what YOU are). Oh and we have a history of bloodshed; how ironic this is coming from the LDS who was responsible for deprivations in Missouri, the Blood Atonement doctrine, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, etc. And, finally, only the LDS is authorized to preach the gospel.

I could fill a couple more pages of quotes from LDS leaders, all condescending to the true Christian faith, but I think this should suffice to demonstrate that the LDS has historically attacked the Christian faith. And yet Mormons will continue to claim they never do so. So the next time you want to whine about being offended because we say you aren’t Christian, try remembering what YOUR church teaches about REAL Christians.

The bottom line is that it is not “anti-Mormon” to expose the LDS for the fraudulent belief system that it is. It is not “un-Christian” to expose lies and falsehoods pretending to represent true Christianity. Nor is it “hate” or “bigotry” to state that Mormons are not Christian.

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youngsterville | July 19, 2015 at 5:39 am

To the very defining point of narcissism you continue to show your true colors Glen E. Chatfield.

I know Jesus Christ, I love him and would do anything to follow his perfect example.

You speak things that are untrue yet you are insulted by Gods own words.

You claim I don’t know the teachings of my own religion yet you use false pretense to make your claims. If you want to judge the LDS faith you need to go by all of their standards and not leave out the most important parts such as what’s official doctrine and what’s not….

You also claim I don’t know he meaning of apologist however you don’t acknowledge my whole statement where I gave you my reasoning for not accepting official change churches stance as an apologist perspective. I rather think they are far above such debate. What they say is and what others say about what they say can be considered apologists.

You are wrong in so very many ways that I must unsolicit myself from conversing with you any further.
Job19:25 – For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
I have no more time for your insults and persistent ignorance.

There is so much good to come from the Book of Mormon and you have not been afforded that enlightenment yet which is all so sorrowful.
Good luck to you and your salvation and may Gods peace be with and may all that you love be guided through the light of truth….

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 19, 2015 at 2:40 pm

Youngsterville,

You keep saying you are leaving and the you have to come back as start the name-calling. I’ve said it before, when you resort to that it is because you have no valid argument. I’m trying to figure out just what I have said that would lead to a “defining point of narcissism.”

You do NOT know the Jesus Christ of the Bible. We’ve proved to you the difference between your idol god and Jesus compared to the biblical God and Jesus. You refuse to acknowledge the truth.

There is nothing I have said in any of this discussion which is untrue. You keep asserting that without any proof. Assertions are not evidence. I have never insulted God’s words – that’s what Mormons do.

Again, I demonstrated by LDS leaders statements what actually constitutes official doctrine, and you just assert I’m wrong. I guess you have trouble understanding what your own leaders teach.

No, I didn’t say you didn’t know what an apologist was. I originally stated that I believed you were cutting and pasting items from LDS apologists so you would have to think on your own. You stated that they were not apologists but church leaders who don’t take titles like “apologist.” I merely pointed out that EVERYONE who is a defender of their particular discipline is an apologist for that discipline; ergo, your leaders are indeed apologists for the LDS faith. I was trying to broaden your horizon as to what an apologist is. EVERY real Christian should be an apologist by having enough knowledge to defend their faith against frauds like the LDS faith.

You keep saying I am “wrong in so many ways,” yet you haven’t ever proven your claim. Again, you just assert as if every one is supposed to accept your assertions. On the other hand, I keep citing LDS material for everyone to see exactly what the LDS has taught.

There is nothing good to come from the BOM. I have read it in-depth many, many times and in several different publication dates as more and more changes were added to it. A huge percentage of it is nothing more that plagiarizing the KJV Bible, and the rest can be see to come from many other ancient publications as well as from Joseph Smith’s very active imagination.

I don’t have to worry about my salvation because Christ is my savior. YOU are the one, along with your cult religion, who will never see eternal life without leaving that religion and turning to the true God and Christ of the Bible.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 22, 2015 at 4:27 pm

Youngsterville,

Just in case you’re still listening, I just came across an citation in a book I hadn’t read for years, and it cracked me up. Think about this and ask yourself if this can really be true:

“When all these spirits [of God’s heaven-born spirit children] were sent forth from the eternal worlds, they were, no doubt, not infants; but when they entered into the infant tabernacle [body], they were under necessity, the same as our Lord and Savior, of being compressed, or diminished in size so that their spirits could be enclosed in infant tabernacles.

When Jesus was born into our world, His previous knowledge was taken from Him. This was occasioned by His spiritual body being compressed into a smaller volume than it originally occupied. . . . When this spirit was compressed, so as to be wholly enclosed in an infant tabernacle, it had a tendency to suspend memory. . . .

So it is with man. When he enters a body of flesh, his spirit is so compressed and contracted in infancy that he forgets his former existence.”

Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, pg.334. Cited in “Mormonism, Mama & Me,” by Thelma “Granny” Geer, p.186

Spirits, having no real dimension, do not need to be compressed or compacted to fit anywhere. And what biblical evidence do they have for any of this nonsense, especially since the Bible denies spiritual pre-existence (1 Cor. 15:44-46 — natural FIRST!)? This story was obviously concocted to respond to questions about why we don’t remember pre-existing.

The convoluted stories cultists have to come up with to defend their false beliefs can be downright humorous!

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youngsterville | July 23, 2015 at 1:41 pm

Glen E Chatfield- And how do you dare try and use 1-Corinthians 44-46 as to say the bible denies spiritual pre- existence?

You are really missing out if that’s how interpret things of the bible. You could not be more dead wrong and backwards. Sorry but you just stepped all over one my favorite areas of the bible….

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 24, 2015 at 6:42 am

Youngsterville,

How dare I use that passage? Because it refutes your LDS nonsense of pre-existence. It plainly states that the natural man is first and becomes a spiritual man later. You have it backward with spiritual first. How about you try reading what the Bible actually says rather than the twisting you are taught by your cult leaders?

Prove to me where I’m wrong rather than your continual assertions. Don’t you find it odd that for 1800 + years Christians got it all wrong and it took Joseph Smith to straighten it all out — a necromancer chosen by God to bring a new gospel? Yeah, that’s something to believe all right.

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youngsterville | July 24, 2015 at 1:32 pm

Glen E. Chatfield- man was not completely wrong and not for the entire 1800 years. The world was without all pieces of the gospel since the great apostasy. Joseph Smith was taught to improve and expand the beliefs of others not to take away from them. All religions hold partial eternal truths and just need the fullness of the Gospel to complete the a pure clearer connection with the will of God.
Look further particularly into Corithians-1 15:46 – Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, ……………………………………………………
but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
-How be it?

Something worth checking out http://www.bookofmormonevidence.org
I like the report there on “The Smoking Gun” by Jonathan Neville
To me this study gives a great example of how much adversity is against the church even from within its members to try and distort what the prophets are truly teaching. Since the 1840s people of the LDS Faith have been lead thinking false doctrine because of one missionary who went around the prophet to try and win over new one bestiaries of the church. I my self can take confidence in the fact that I have never made to much assumption on whether the Book of Mormon stories took place on he north or South American continent because it has always been left for me to decide and not actually taught in official church doctrine. That’s what makes Official Church Doctrine so vital to survival in LDS faith….

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T I Miller | July 25, 2015 at 9:01 am

Matt. 7:21 passage is one of the most serious sobering warnings ever uttered by Jesus, the eternally self existent Son of God. All of those who Jesus denounced for all eternity were extremely SINCERE, just as much as the LDS. Jesus Himself makes it abundantly clear that no amount of sincerity can ever outweigh the TRUTH concerning salvation. Jesus called the Pharisees blind guides who’s converts were twice the children of hell as they were before conversion to false teachings. Leading your children into a false damning faith is nothing short of wicked. LDS are not good people, period.

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Mickey Merrie | July 25, 2015 at 10:52 am

Youngsterville. You said, ” Joseph Smith was taught to improve and expand the beliefs of others not to take away from them. All religions hold partial eternal truths and just need the fullness of the Gospel to complete the a pure clearer connection with the will of God.”

Thus at the very least you raise Smith to the level of Jesus the Christ (which means the only anointed one). Also you state that, “… all religions hold partial eternal truths, plus they just need the fullness of the Gospel to complete a purer connection with the will of God.”

So, if they merely need the Gospel, then why do your added books even exist? Further, you imply that all religions have a connection with the will of God. In part I agree, as all paths lead to God, as judge, and none shall stand innocent there.

Frankly, I’ve never seen so much foolish ignorance among any commenter upon this site.

Isn’t it amazing that those who cannot see…or refuse to see, need an anointed one to explain to them what THE Anointed One is saying!?!? Yes the blind one is always certain that he sees better than those who actually can see for themselves thanks to the Holy Spirit of God residing in them…

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youngsterville | July 25, 2015 at 1:36 pm

First it should be explained that my typos are a result of me using a small Iphone to make these entries and once I type I can’t seem to scroll back up and check which words spell check has changed on me.

As for my intended comments, I make them in defense of what I hold so dear to my heart which is what the LDS members all over the world are celebrating this weekend July 24th is Pioneer Day. I know that the Mormon pioneers made sacrifices in order to establish a foot hold for Gods kingdom to b built upon. These sacrifices were in the face of all amounts of evil and opposition.
In defense to the previous two comments I say
What if Glen E. Chatfield were to punch you in your face wouldn’t you try to defend yourself? I think if any of you are trying to attack my comments here then you are the ones falling short in your sight of things. Instead of trying to turn the other cheek you guys display very little patience or any of thewholesome goodness that I am afforded to witness within the saints of the restored gospel. Why do you take so much offense that you cut off the very hand that feeds you. You dare quote Christ himself as a means of excluding yourself from his demeanor. In my line of workin in a prison. I am afforded the opportunity to see the inner most deepest areas of human emotion. I have quite a good observation point of both what makes people evil and what makes people submissive, meek and humble. I am also empowered with the experiences within the spiritual boundaries as a repentant deciple of Jesus Christ. I do find comfort in the knowledge that I aquire and I am always open and ready to put my personal interests aside to the will of God.
Mathew 18: 1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

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Glenn E. Chatfield | July 25, 2015 at 3:16 pm

Youngsterville,
Don’t rewrite history. As for the pioneers, a lot of the suffering was because greedy Brigham Young got tired of spending money and came up with the handcart fiasco, which led to a disaster when some got going late.

First, the first punch was always thrown by the Mormons, and then they whined “persecution.” That’s what you are doing here. You attacked the article initially, and you were in error. Since that time we have been proving the LDS as the fraud that it is.

One never turns the other cheek when Christ is attacked and lied about by the LDS or any other cult. We stand firm and defend the real Christian faith. The LDS has no “restored gospel” because in order to restore something it had to first be lost — and the true gospel was never lost. Smith just made up a new gospel, and Gal. 1: 6-9 says because of that he is to be eternally condemned — as are ALL LDS and other cultists promoting false gospels.

You blaspheme the Lord whenever you use his words and place them in the mouth of your false Christ.

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Mickey Merrie | July 27, 2015 at 12:41 pm

Well, this much I will give you youngsterville , you argue as a child and thus live up to your pseudoname!

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Matt Crawford | September 5, 2015 at 12:22 am

It doesn’t matter what you believe in terms of doctrine. What matters is faith and ethics. In every religion of the world there are good and evil men. Any person can live a ‘doctrine’ to the damnation of his soul, and any man can practice a ridiculous doctrine that he mistakenly but earnestly believes is valid if he is moral and kind and be inspired by God. How many Hindu’s worship elephants to the exclusion of common sense and yet are beloved by those about them for charity and conscientiousness? How many ‘christians’ have murdered on the basis of politics ignoring common decency? Would you rather be the stupid Hindu laying food at the foot of your ‘god’ or the deluded ‘christian’ bomber pilot immolating the innocent who then terms it ‘collateral damage’? It is the hypocrite that God condemns, not the ignorant. It is the pure at heart who see God in the end, not the Pharisee who obeys rules while ignoring pain.
“Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap”.
So stop this nonsense of arguing over things you cannot know. It only sows dissension in the faith we should place in our fellow men. Do you think any man here would abandon a baby in the rain? “If you, being evil, can do good things for your children, how much more will your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask him?” God recognizes goodness irrespective of belief … and we cannot condemn any man for his beliefs without offending the God who told us “Judge not, lest ye be judged”.
Be it salvation by Christ, or accomplishment by works, our actions in life matter. As Marcus Aurelius exclaimed “What we do ripples through eternity”.
For my part, I always try to remember what the ancient Egyptians believed: When you die, your heart is placed on one end of a scale, and on the other side is a feather. If your heart is heavier than that feather, you have not succeeded in life.
We can only help others through our example, NEVER by arguing about beliefs. Beliefs are evanescent. The only thing that counts, the only thing you can take with you after this Vale of Tears … is character.

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sterlingmmull | September 6, 2015 at 6:39 am

mat Crawford- You are indeed correct about beliefs not mattering (if there is no such thing as truth). Dont you suppose that the Nazis BELIEFS that Jews were sub-human was the reason why there ACTIONS followed course? The claim that beliefs do not matter; only actions, is quite absurd. Actions ALWAYS follow beliefs, not the other way around. It would have ben much preferable if the Nazis had debated there BELIEFS about Jews and changed there BELIEFS before there ACTIONS followed course, don’t you think? Or do you stick with the claim that its a waste of time to debate beliefs?

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Matt Crawford | September 6, 2015 at 9:07 am

Hey Sterling – Great Point. So let me clarify: Civilization as it presently stands surrendered mere ‘belief’ as a standard for human conduct when the ‘Enlightenment’ forced us to consider that there were objective means of determining truth through science. The ‘scientific method’ is far from perfect. In it’s immature development it has fostered materialism, cynicism about religion, and conceit. But it has one essential quality for the development of culture: a method for objectivity. Beliefs, particularly religious beliefs, never have that. They originally depend upon the inspiration of the founder, whom, however brilliant, cannot transfer the essence of the ‘insights’ beyond the ‘third generation’ of the ‘religion’. Those insights, because of the lack of a direct transference of the ‘inspiration’, are then trivialized in a doctrinal formation because of the failure of language to explain what can only be ‘felt’ as truth. Which is why I said, “Stop this arguing about things you cannot know”.

So when you argue about religious ‘beliefs’, it is important to recognize that they are actually OPINIONS cut off from the original inspiration. And no religious opinion is worthy of demeaning another human being. And when we claim, on the basis of our belief/opinion, that other people are not capable or inadequate, or cut off from inspiration, or God Forgive Us, irredeemable, than we are merely conceited… and ignorant. And thus Cyril, Bishop of Alexandria, convinced Peter the Reader to murder the beautiful and brilliant Hypatia, merely because her ‘beliefs’ embarrassed his ‘faith’… as one example amongst many.
It is not therefore a question of debating beliefs, but of condemning others when you cannot agree. You are therefore not defending God, but you’re own ego. Paul, the supposed prophet Christians so rely upon because they cannot find Jesus making statements that support their conclusions, was instrumental in this kind of antipathy; according to apocryphal literature, he threw James, the brother of Jesus, down some stairs. Do you suppose Sterling, that Paul knew Jesus better than his own brother?
To demonstrate this concept of beliefs actually being mere opinions, I suggest you read Mein Kampf, Toland’s biography of Adolf Hitler, and look carefully into the controversy about the “Holocaust”. Then things may not appear to you as normative history claims they are …
You should also celebrate the fact, whatever your OPINIONS Sterling, that you are at least attempting to defend what you believe is right. There is nothing worse than being a nihilist!
The prime example of that … was Adolf Hitler.

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Matt Crawford | September 6, 2015 at 9:41 am

OH, OH! And I should also add Sterling, et al, that however much Mormons are vilified for believing in unsupportable conclusions contradicted by evidence, their FAITH nevertheless has created a magnificent civilization out of a desert, and this in fleeing from persecution that would have withered any philosophy not INSPIRED. They are furthermore regaled in popular culture as sincere, honest, dependable, and trustworthy. Clearly they obviously developed a pattern of behavior and practice that allowed communication with something Divine on an individual level. So, when we say that “God works in mysterious ways” we also might want to consider that inspiration exists beyond what is rational. I mean, how else could so many Hindu’s be so wonderful? You got to know Sterling that Gandhi and Jesus are best buddy’s now …
And, if that is the case, what is the sense in ever debating religion? The important thing is ethics. How do we live without harming each other? And personally, I think Jehovah pretty much nailed that in Exodus with the 10 commandments. Perhaps the only thing that MIGHT have been added was to not pollute Mother Earth. But hey, Jehovah had his hands full with that ‘stiff-necked’ people, as he described them …

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Glenn E. Chatfield | September 6, 2015 at 2:47 pm

Matt,

All the good behavior in the world means nothing to God if you are worshiping idols

But let’s see about the Mormon behaviors: polygamy, often while taking place with the woman still being married to her original husband and sharing the bed with both (Smith did that a lot).

Sexual immorality was rife long before Nauvoo, and there it got worse, and exponentially worse after the move to Utah.

Moutan Meadows Massacre

The Danites and the murders of many “apostates” and others disagreeing with Mormonism.

Smith’s bank scheme bankrupting hundreds of people.

All the LDS false prophets, beginning with Smith, whose lies have placed many in bondage to a legalistic system sending them to hell as they worship false gods and a false Christ.

I could go on listing bad behaviors after bad behaviors of the LDS church and their people, but none of it gets in the news. Their public face is a lie.

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sterlingmmull | September 7, 2015 at 5:51 am

Matt- You just completely ignored my comment; that’s fine, il take that as a capitulation. Im not aware of anyone who has referred to salt lake city as a “magnificent civilization” before. If the length of time and amount of persecution determine whether or not a faith is “inspired” than Christianity and Jewdeism both trump Mormonism. They have endured longer and through orders of magnitude more persecution than the LDS has; and since they both directly contradict LDS doctrine, its looking kind-of bad for the LDS church by your standard.

Mat, how many Hindus have you known in your life? Most likely the onces you have known live here in the US and have largely assimilated the judeao/christian values of our country. Visit countries where Hindus have shaped the culture like India; Where Wife burning and child rape is rampant. Where the Wife is blamed for the husbands death, where parents allow rats to eat there starving children’s food. India, where its beneficial for people to suffer and die in the street, in order to work off there Karma. Dont help that sick and starving man because then he cant work off his negative Karma without suffering.

Mat take off the rose colored glasses and look at what the false religious have wrought in this world. Hinduism is a hideous blight upon this world. Islam is a generator of murder, rape, honor killings, mutilations, you name it. Mormonism has been held in check by the predominant christian culture; God help us if the LDS becomes pre-eminent here, it would go back to its old ways. Just as Glenn described, murder, rape, polygamy, larceny, massacres, idolatry. Im sure you would say to this,” but, ah, look how moral we are now!” Quite so, Christian (not Mormon) culture and laws have restrained you to be so.

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youngsterville | September 7, 2015 at 1:13 pm

Quitting the Mormon Church

” In a local newspaper in Provo (Utah), there had been an ongoing series of articles written by individuals who wanted to persuade, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as, the “Mormon Church” to leave the Church. In response to the highly critical and spirited remarks, a local member wrote this rebuttal:

Editor:

I have been thinking of quitting the Mormon Church. Yes, if I can, I am going to get even with that church. As soon as I can find another church that teaches about the Gathering of the House of Israel; the return of the
Ten Tribes and their mission; the return of the Jews to Palestine and why, and how they are going to build the temple; the building of temples and what
to do with them; the mission of Elias, the prophet, as predicted by Malachi; the method for the salvation of the people that died at the time of Noah in the flood; the origin of the American Indian; the complete
explanation of why Jesus of Nazareth had to have a mortal mother but not a mortal father; the explanation of the three degrees of glory (three heavens)
as mentioned by Paul; the complete explanation of why Elias and Moses did not die but had to be translated (since they both lived before the resurrection was introduced by Christ); the restoration of the gospel by modern revelation as promised by Peter and Paul and Jesus himself; the belief in eternal marriage and the family, and the knowledge and the place to seal for eternity; that teaches abstinence from all harmful drugs and foods ; and that sells the best fire insurance policy on earth, for the last days, for only a tenth of my income.

Yes sir, as soon as I can find another church that teaches all that, or even half as much, I will say good-bye to this Mormon Church. The church that I am looking for must also be able to motivate 90,000+ youth, and
adults, for the first, second or third time, to leave their homes for two years at their own expense and go to far-away places to teach and preach
without salary. It must be able to call, on a frosty day, some 5 or 6
thousand professors, students, lawyers, doctors, judges, policemen, businessmen, housewives and children to go and pick apples at 6 am. It must
be able to call meetings and get the attention for two hours of more than 300,000 men. Yes, it must also teach and show why salvation is assured for children who die before eight years of age.

Mr. Editor, could you help me find a church that teaches all that and more than hundreds of other doctrines and principles, which I have no room to mention here, and which brings solace and comfort to the soul; peace, hope, and salvation to mankind, and above all, that answers the key questions that all the great philosophers have asked; questions and answers
that explain the meaning of life, the purpose of death, suffering and pain; the absolute need for a Redeemer and the marvelous plan conceived by our Father
and executed by Jesus Christ the Savior? Yes, as soon as I find another church that teaches that, and also that has the organization and the powers
to make that teaching effective, I am going to quit the Mormon Church. For I should not tolerate that “they” should change a few words in the Book of Mormon – even if those changes simply improve the grammar and the syntax of the verses – for, after all, don’t you think the Divine Church should employ angels as bookmakers, and clerks, to do all the chores on earth? Don’t you think, Mr. Editor that the Divine Church should also have prophets that don’t get sick and don’t get old and die, and certainly, that don’t make a
goof here and there. No, sir! A Divine Church should be so divine that only perfect people should belong to it, and only perfect people should run it.
As a matter of fact, the Church should be so perfect that it should not even be here on earth!

So, I repeat, if any one of the kind readers of this imperfect letter knows about another church that teaches and does as much for mankind as the
Mormon Church, please let me know. And please do it soon, because my turn to go to the cannery is coming up. Also, “they” want my last son (the fifth
one) to go away for two years and again, I have to pay for all that. And I also know that they expect me to go to the farm to prune trees, and I have heard that our ward is going to be divided again, and it is our side that must build the new chapel. And also, someone the other day had the gall of suggesting that my wife and I get ready to go on a second mission, and when you come back, they said, you can volunteer as a temple worker. Boy, these Mormons don’t leave you alone for a minute. And what do I get
for all that, I asked? “Well,” they said, “for one, you can look forward to a funeral service at no charge!”… Do you think you can help me to find another church? ”

Thomas D. Clark

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Glenn E. Chatfield | September 12, 2015 at 11:18 am

Interesting, he will only join another church that has the same unbiblical and false teachings as the LDS. So he wants just another cult rather than the truth.

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Mark Sheets | December 10, 2015 at 4:48 pm

Holy mackerel…

I was fooled for a time, due to my lack of a solid foundation in the Bible – I just didn’t know any better. I was a “good Mormon” for a few years. I’ve been to the temple and all that…blah, blah, blah.

But now, I DO know better. I am extremely embarrassed that I ever fell for the rubbish that the church and its missionaries peddle.

This Youngster fellow is making my brain hurt.

Presented with facts, church history, and even the REAL Word of Truth – just as with any blog-talking Mormon – there is no effect. These things just bounce off the forehead. The churches brainwashing/mind control is truly a marvel to behold, and, as a prime example, this guy does not disappoint! How can a person be so completely disconnected with reality!?!?

As many of you have already mentioned, the LDS “church” is, indeed, a sham of the platinum grade. And, as a Christian, I AM insulted that these bozos claim to be “Christians” and to believe in the Bible. Because they can’t. If they did, they wouldn’t be Mormon!

I suppose I’m a little sensitive to this situation as I am presented with it daily. My wife is still an active member. And, she takes our kids. I am alone. It really sucks the happiness of finding Christ right out of you, when your family is like the walking dead, not responding to any of the facts, history, Bible, that I share with them, just as this Youngster fellow. It’s quite maddening.

Sorry for ranting. The rest of you are much more civil and loving than I am feeling right now. Perhaps I’m just venting…I’ll shut up now.

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The top 5 Brigham Young teachings that Mormons desperately try to conceal from you.

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