I saw something recently that I wanted to share. I was out of town and came across TBN and another TBN-like “Christian” channel called Inspiration on the TV in the hotel. I found myself mesmerized, switching back and forth between the two. My wife asked why I was bothering watching this, but it was like watching a train wreck. You don’t want to look, but you can’t help it.
On this particular channel they were having a Camp Meeting Telethon (a fund-raiser . . . imagine that!) and even TD Jakes was pimping for dollars. Then came Mike Murdock. What this purveyor of the prosperity gospel said caused me to reach for my pad and pen to take note.
Mr. Murdock told the audience (and those watching from home) that he prayed for three blessing for us. (Gee, thanks for caring so much about us, Mike). They sounded more like magic genie wishes to me. Are you ready for this?
1). That every blessing he gets you get too. He called this the Prayer of Boaz.
2). That you can own your home debt free. Not just any old small home but a huge mansion of a home. During this same broadcast he boasted about how big his home was.
3). That God will put people in your lives that you can “get something from.” Wow, using people for our benefit has never felt so spiritual. But doesn’t the Bible warn against this?
With all this garbage that spewed out of his mouth, the “audience” just clapped and applauded and nodded in approval. I grieve for them. They are so deceived because they are so ignorant of the Scriptures.
FourPointer recently posted an article on Mr. Murdock. You can see it here.
Christ Alone Wyoming 
MIKE MURDOCK IS TRASH. ANYTIME HE’S ON TV ALL HE EVER TALKS ABOUT IS MONEY. NOTICE HE DOESN’T TEACH FROM A BIBLE BUT FROM ONE OF HIS SO CALLED BOOKS (MORE LIKE LEAFLETS). WATCHING HIS ACT IS LIKE WATCHING A TRAIN WRECK. THE MORE HE SPEAKS THE MORE I WANT TO THROW UP. HE SHOULD WRITE FAIRY TALES BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT HIS STORIES ARE, PURE FICTION. HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE RECIEVED LARGE SUMS OF MONEY OR A VINTAGE CAR OR SUITS FROM ABSOLUTE STRANGERS?
THIS CROOK BELONGS BEHIND BARS. INSPIRATION NETWORK AIRED HIS BEGGING ALMOST EVERY SUNDAY THIS YEAR! WHENEVER ANOTHER SO-CALLED TV MINISTRY NEEDS MORE MONEY (WHICH IS EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY) THEY CALL IN MURDOCK OR THAT OTHER MONEY GRUBBER, STEVE MUNSEY. MIKE MURDOCK IS TRULY A DISGUSTING INDIVIDUAL.
HE’S THE WORST OF AN ENDLESS LINE OF SICK, GREEDY TV PREACHERS, WHOSE ONLY GOAL IS TO GET MORE MONEY FROM THOSE FOOLISH ENOUGH
TO BUY INTO THE GARBAGE THEY SPEW. HOPEFULLY THERE IS A SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL FOR PEOPLE LIKE MURDOCK.
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And sadly, George, when the world thinks of Christianity, men like this too often come to their mind. However, it shouldn’t come as a surprise. Jesus told us that men like this would arise and mislead many.
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Hi. I think Mike Murdock is a wise man.
God spoke to me through him.
So, if you talk negative about him, you’re spiritually blind.
Sow a seed and expect your harvest.
I see that this site is sowing trash, so you will reap trash.
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Big,
I am sorry to say that it is “Dr.” Murdock that is sowing trash. His prosperity “gospel”–which is not THE gospel–leads many people to think that God is at our every beck and call, rather than the other way around. Many people are lost because they follow his teachings.
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Big, I have a question or two for you, if you would be kind enough?
Big Says:
1, January 1, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Hi. I think Mike Murdock is a wise man.
God spoke to me through him.
So, if you talk negative about him, you’re spiritually blind.
Sow a seed and expect your harvest.
I see that this site is sowing trash, so you will reap trash.
Here are the questions;
1. Big, what measuring device or tool are you using to believe that this man is a wise man? You feelings don’t count. 1 Peter 19, Tells us that we have to understand situations and people by using a “More sure Word.”
2 God spoke to you through him? How can this be? I Timothy 2:5-7 says, 5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;6. Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
3. Big, by what means do you feel that he is wrongly being question? In the book of Matthew 7, and 2 Peter tells us that we must be careful of false prophets. Also, St Paul informs us to be a Berean and to use the Word of God to verify the information that is being given to us. Acts 17:11-12 says, 11. But the people of Beroea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and gladly listened to the message. They searched the Scriptures day by day to check up on Paul and Silas’ statements to see if they were really so. 12. As a result, many of them believed, including several prominent Greek women and many men also.
4. Big, could you show me the scripture that informs me to sow to this person, for a blessing? Also, we are in the New Covenant, so could you please show me since the resurrection of Christ Jesus whereas I need to contribute by sowing to any program (perhaps for healing, wealth, or riches)?
5. Big, could you please incorporate any scriptures that predicate that this site is sowing trash? Personal opinion, emotions or feelings don’t count; St. Peter informs us at the transfiguration (Matthew 17) that St Peter saw the second coming of Jesus. 1 Peter 18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
6. 19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
7. 20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
8. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Big, what he was saying emotions and hocus-pocus doesn’t count.
Jesus is Lord
Jeff
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I’m glad that I am not the only one who thinks that mike murdock is a crook. I had the misfortune of watching him in action on tv. It is so sad that he can face the camera and preach about nothing but the almighty dollar. I really can’t see how anybody in their right mind can take him seriously. His whole congregation is probably his employee staff cause I refuse to believe that anyone is that stupid. When he does reference the bible, he twists the true meaning of the word, and somehow gets a seed of faith out of it. That’s the way of the world though. If you are a barber, then everyone needs a haircut. If you sell cars, everybody needs a new car. If your a money grubbing scam artist using god as a tool, then your gonna go to hell if you don’t plant that seed of faith to his ministry. I could go on and on, but I think I’ve given the gist of what’s on my mind. All I can say mr murdock, is that in the end, we will all have our rewards, based on the merits of our deeds. You don’t believe in god, or if you do, then hell holds no fear to you obviously. Your ministry is the only seed that needs to buried. Nothing would grow from it, but it sounds good to me.
And consequently, I think that “big” is either mike murdock or one of his employees.
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Maybe I’m being too cynical, but funny how the defender of Murdock above took the name “Big.”
These men like Murdock are ravenous wolves who have no qualms about fleecing widows and orphans so they can grow fat like a calf before the slaughter. Funny too how these false teachers can always receive money but never can they give, they can take seed but never can they sow.
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Hey Big, Lumpy Meat Loaf,
is defcon sowing ‘trash’? Depends on your point of view i guess.
looking around this site i can’t fault them on their interpretation of scripture, so absolutely no ‘trash’ there. If Holy Scripture is the final, inerrant word of God, which it is, you gotta hand it to these guys, they call it like it is.
But i’m left with the feeling that it can’t be much fun being one of the Def Con guys, or living with them.
My pop used to say to me, ‘always speak the truth. But the truth must not always be spoken’. In other words, one of the big things in life and in getting along with our fellow humans in this vale of tears is knowing when to shut up.
The way these guys go on, you do wonder if they have any friends or people who’d, like, voluntarily choose to have a drink with them in the bar. Def Con just tear down, and condemn others, and harangue. They don’t do the cause of our Lord’s work many favours.
Hey guys, just my female point of view.
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Sally,
When it comes to the Word of God, the truth must ALWAYS be spoken. If somebody told you that they were “saved,” but they were still sleeping with their boyfriend/girlfriend, and getting drunk on the weekends, and so on–would you tell them the truth that they need to repent? Or would you just pat them on the back and let them continue living a lie, rebelling against God, and heading toward Hell? I have the feeling you would do the latter.
On the other hand, Jesus ALWAYS spoke the truth, no matter how many quote-unquote “followers” walked away. In fact, when the rich young ruler (Matthew 19:16-26) went away sad because of what Jesus told him, did Jesus go chasing after him and say something like, “Hey, I’m sorry, buddy! I didn’t mean to offennnnnd you! Will you pleeeeease accept My apology? Look, I take back what I said! All of it! Honest! I didn’t mean to hurt your feeeeelings!!”
No.
In fact, if anything, He piled on even more, calling him out and saying, “Look how hard it is for the rich to enter Heaven!”
Sally, if the truth is something you have a hard time accepting, then this is not the place for you to hang out. Your comment is kinda confusing, because on one hand you say “i can’t fault them on their interpretation of scripture.” Then you turn around and say “one of the big things in life and in getting along with our fellow humans in this vale of tears is knowing when to shut up.” So, Sally, when exactly do we “shut up” and stop speaking the truth about God’s word? When it hurts someone’s feelings? When it damages someone’s “self-esteem?” When it shows someone that they are living in sin?
2nd Timothy 4:2–“Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.” When we explain the word of God, we do not compromise. We do not water it down. If someone is going around promoting a false gospel, a false idea about who Christ is, or if they twist and distort and pervert the word of God for their own financial gain, then we will, indeed, tear them down, while at the same time giving the Christian soldier the knowledge they need to “fight the good fight of faith” and to “contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to all the saints,” seeing as how we “wrestle…against principalities and powers, rulers of the darkness of this age…” That, my friend, is more helpful to the cause of Christ that all the wishy-washy, candy-coated, seeker-sensitive, “let’s not offend anybody and all just get along,” Joel Osteen-type pop psychology that masquerades as “biblical preaching.”
Oh, and sally, we do indeed have friends. We have families. We have people we “hang out with.” However, that “hanging out” usually doesn’t include “having a drink with them in the bar.” So, yeah, I guess you’re right about that part.
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Sally, you say “you can’t fault them on their interpretation of scripture”. Obviously you know the truth, but do you love the truth, or do you sacrifice it on the altar of getting along with everybody. We are not told in God’s Word to get along with everybody, as the world will hate us as it hated Jesus first. As for unity which has become a god, how could we possibly have unity with false teachers and the people who follow them. If you love someone do you tell them the truth when it involves life and death? Much worse here as we are speaking about eternity. I appreciate this site and others like them who speak the truth. Much better to be hated for truth than loved for lies. That is deception
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i didn’t think any of you did normal things like meet friends in bars.
and my post is not confusing. i set out those two points of view to illustrate the dilemma you guys face, which is this – your view of God is so narrow, legalistic and devoid of Jesus’ compassion and humanity that no sane person would want any part of it. You seem to me to come from somewhere at the extreme end of the male spectrum. You all sound like little boys.
i have a question for the DEF CON ‘bereans’. How many of you are women? How many of you are over 30? How many of you have passports? How many of you have traveled to a Muslim or an Eastern country?
OK that’s 4 questions, but you get the idea. Or maybe you don’t.
It’s called perspective, something you guys could really do with. Grow up and put away childish things.
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Sally,
I am a woman, and I am also a contributor here at DefCon. My posts are under ‘unworthy1’.
You consider going to bars and drinking ‘normal’. You are absolutely right, that is normal behavior….of a lost sinner. The Sacred Scriptures teach we are to be separate from the world, not loving the world, not participating in what the world participates in. Can I go into a bar and drink? Why would I want to? I have seen the devastating affects of alcohol firsthand, my own dad died a painful death as a direct result of alcoholism. I have personally experienced much embarrassment in past endeavors of indulging in alcohol. I have seen illegitimate children birthed as a result of drunken ‘one night stands’…I am raising such a child {abandoned by her alcoholic/lesbian mother}.
Is there a benefit for the born again believer to sit in bars?
Do we need to stoop to the level of the world in order to preach the Gospel? No. Christ ate with sinners, but He NEVER drank, nor did He participate in their sins. Instead, He lovingly gave them truth.
I do not need to be like the world in order to ‘have fun’, I am focused on my eternal home. That is where my hope lies, not in any thing in this world.
How can you seek fun in a world that is so wicked? How can you desire pleasure when 4,000 babies are murdered EACH DAY in this wicked nation? When sexual immorality is the driving force behind our culture, along with selfishness, greed, materialism, and idolatry? How can you desire fun when most people will die and go to hell?
As for travelling, God places His people where He desires them. There are missionaries all over the world spreading the Gospel, like http://www.hcmissions.org, that God carefully guides under His watchful eye and empowers by His Spirit.
I must ask you this Sally, you accuse us of being ‘narrow and legalistic’, could you support your accusation with Sacred Scripture?
Thank you
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Sally,
I’m a DefCon contributor who regularly hangs out at bars. Specifically, in front of them, for the purpose of warning the unsaved of their standing before God, and to give the gospel. I know what goes on in those places, and I can’t imagine any reason (other than evangelism) that a Christian would expose themselves to such a sinful environment. Surely it can’t be for the fun of it.
Are you born again?
Thanks,
Bill
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Sally,
I am a DefCon contributor who is 42 years old. I used to hang out in bars all the time, many times past closing time. I used to think that spending the weekend drunk was “normal.” I used to think that it was OK to cuss and swear and go to strip clubs and watch pornography. In short, I was a self-centered sinner who acted like a self-centered sinner.
But then God saved me one night in 2001. I began reading a wonderful book you might want to pick up some time. It’s called “The Holy Bible.” It has all kinds of wonderful promises for those who seek to live a life of holiness and righteousness. It also has many warnings about things we should avoid in order to please God.
Things like……Unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; gossip, slander, insolence, arrogance, boasting, inventing evil, disobedience to parents, lacking understanding, being untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful, since those who practice such things are worthy of death (see Romans 1:29-32)
Things like………fornication, idolatry, adultery, theft, covetousness, drunkenness, reviling, swindling, since people who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (see 1st Corinthians 6:9-10)
Things like………immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, since those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (see Galatians 5:19-21)
I saw in 1st Peter 4:1-4 that I should no longer live the rest of my time in the flesh for its lusts, but for the will of God. For I have spent enough of my past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles–when I walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. In regard to these, you, Sally, think it strange that I do not run in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of me.
So, tell us Sally, which do you desire? To follow your own darkened heart? Or the word of God? Which one will you serve?
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sally,
Actually the view of God we hold is not based on the traditions of man or what makes us feel good. If you were to take the time to study the picture the Old Testament paints of a holy, just God, you would definitely have been in the minority for thinking that God should be a type of “buddy” that we all get along with as long as we don’t disobey the major commandments.
Jesus Christ, the very Son of God and God Himself, made it extremely clear what He thought of self-righteous people who thought they could just get along with God on their own terms.
As for your questions, I am a male, over 40, been in the ministry for almost 2 decades, have held AND used both British and American passports since I was little. I have visited countries that are either Muslim or predominantly Muslim. I have also visited countries that are in the dark continent of Africa. I understand perspective. Strangely enough, only in America or in countries indoctrinated with American prosperity type gospel messages will you find the drivel found on tv channels like TBN.
I know what it is like to watch people of Eastern religions mock true Christians for the sake of false Christians because of the hypocrisy they see in Christianity. They watch us make claims about a life-changing religion and living holy lives but yet the walk rarely matches the talk.
So the bottom line is this, there is no issue of putting away childish things with the contributors of DefCon. The real issue is whether through thick and thin, through mockery and savage judgmentalism – that we will stay true to the infallible Word of God, whether we will be willing to stand on our Biblical principles no matter what the world or even so-called Christians think or say about us.
I conclude with a very appropriate illustration. It is said that one day a young soldier was brought before Alexander the Great. His crime was desertion during battle, and the punishment was known to be death. Alexander watching the young man who was no more than about 16 or 17 began to have compassion in his heart. He looked at the young man and asked his name. The young man replied in a very soft voice, “Alexander.”
Alexander the Great caught the name on the wind and leaning forward asked in a rougher voice, “Young man, what did you say your name was?” The young man said a little stronger, “Alexander, sir.”
Alexander the Great jumped off of his throne and took a couple of steps toward the young man and shouted, “YOUNG MAN, WHAT IS YOUR NAME?” The young soldier snapped to full attention and shouted, “ALEXANDER, SIR!!”
The great general took a couple of steps closer and yelled, “YOUNG MAN, CHANGE YOUR NAME OR CHANGE YOUR CONDUCT!!”
sally, a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ WILL become a new creation in Christ. They WILL CHANGE. They WILL NOT remain in their old habits. The bottom line is that many who claim the name “CHRIST-ian” either need to change their name to reflect who or what they really are, or change their conduct!
The Desert Pastor
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pilgrim? passport?
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Sally:
Your first comment was an attack. Your second comment was an attack. Your third comment ignored every response to your previous two comments and is nothing more than yet another attack.
You imply others have to meet your litmus test to recognize that Murdock is a wolf, (a litmus test that I wonder if Jesus Himself could pass) and in spite of all this your litmus test has backfired and you are now grasping for straws.
From here on out your comments will be moderated for approval as we seriously do not have time to play your smoke-and-mirror-divert-our-attention-away-from-the-issue games.
I also strongly urge you to familiarize yourself with our rules of engagement.
– The Pilgrim
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Pilgrim,
I apologize. I was at Denver airport and they just called my flight when I opened the blog. I regretted it as soon as I sent it.
I meant to ask you in a more considered way whether or nor you had a passport. Do you? I hope you don’t regard that question as an attack in itself.
Thanks for all the answers I got. I counted one passport, one woman, and two over 30s, which is not a whole lot of diversity and experience among the seven bereans. My point is that if you went and saw the world, you would come to love it more. I also think you’ll soften as you get older!
Pilgrim, may I ask why so many of the people you disagree with don’t ‘say’ things, but according to you, they ‘spew’ them? To me, that word you so often use reflects not your opponents’ supposed hatred of God, it reflects your un-Jesus-like hatred of your opponents. Please be more temperate and you may find more that understanding comes back (I accept again that I also was rude – but then, I apologized).
fourpointer, why do you sarcastically say that I ‘might want to pick up’ the Bible sometime? That is an attack on me. I am extremely familiar with holy Scripture.
Lyn, I’m truly sorry to learn what happened to your father. I hope you’ll accept that billions of people use alcohol responsibly, and that Jesus’ first miracle clearly shows that His people need not totally shun alcohol. Moderation is possible!
But suppose I had said ‘cafes’ instead of ‘bars’?
My point was that your interpretation of our Lord’s message is narrow and postulates merely that Def Con is right, end of discussion, and that everyone else can go to hell (literally). That’s hateful, in my opinion. Humans are humans; it’s no wonder other people don’t listen (or choose to meet socially with you in cafes) when you harangue them like that. Jesus said ‘Come unto me, all ye that labor … and I will give you rest’ – for me, the operative word there is ‘all’. Jesus didn’t harangue (hardly ever, anyway) or say that people ‘spewed’ things! He was the Good Shepherd. Show some of His love and please don’t be so hard on people just because they think differently than you.
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Sally:
Allow me to help you with your test so we can find out why you have a vested interest in this post.
We do have a female contributor, everyone here is over 30, one is even from the other side of the planet, and no, I don’t currently hold a passport. I guess this all means that we do in fact do have diversity.
Now, I still don’t understand how your test diminishes what we say or in some way devalues our opinions. Jesus Himself was not a female, barely met your age requirement, and never ventured far from his hometown. So I still fail to see your point.
One does not have to travel the world and minister in foreign lands to be able to read the Bible, understand the Bible, and use the Bible to teach, reprove, correct, and grow.
One area of “experience” and “perspective” that the Desert Pastor and I have that many people don’t is that we’ve both seen death up close and personal more than the average person. Nothing puts things into perspective quite like dealing with death on a fairly regular basis. I know for a fact that we have perspectives on life that most (especially American Christians) never have or ever will have.
But that’s all irrelevant anyway. I don’t place stock so much in the subjective experiential as I do the objective Word of God.
Now with all that aside . . . we’ve learned from your comments that you don’t believe what we have to say has much merit unless we’ve met your qualifications, (although you’re seeing that your judgments of us are not as accurate as you once presumed), and now we’re seeing that you don’t like my choice of words (spew vs speak).
So after all the comments you’ve left, I’m still at a loss. What are you commenting on this thread about? Did you randomly choose this post to tell us how much you dislike us and how we don’t have enough experience and perspective to have opinions on spiritual matters, or are you trying to defend Mike Murdock (or both)?
Sincerely,
– The Pilgrim
P.S. You’re forgiven for your previous comment. I understand now that it’s not what you meant, but it certainly came across that way. :o)
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I recently was glad to have been given clarity in why I was so uncomfortable with the prosperity gospel…at one point in time I was seeking things that seemed to make me blessed by God but not actually seeking GOd. God not things should be our agenda. I appreciated Drawing Near- John Bevere setting me straight…
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Sally,
I am turning 47 on August 28th (next Friday). I have a passport and have traveled the equivalent of 11.5 times around the world for my job (aerospace engineer).
I don’t hang out in bars not only because I have no interest in doing so, but more importantly, it is not profitable (1 Corinthians 6:12). I have a wonderful, godly wife (she is a type 1 diabetic – with lifelong health problems, but the Lord has been gracious with us) and two great children – please pray for my son who is not saved, although the Lord has been preparing the soil). I was raised in an atheistic home (but no alcoholics, praise God!).
In 2000, I was saved by GRACE ALONE through FAITH ALONE in CHRIST ALONE. I am now an Elder in my Lutheran (LCMS) Church, where Christ crucified is preached (1 Corinthians 1:23). I teach Sunday School (I only present Scripture. Anything from me would be sowing leaven.) and creation science; yes, I’m a young earth creationist!
I only mention these things to glorify God in that He chose to use a corrupt, woefully inadequate vessel like me to glorify Himself.
I would mention that I find the writings presented here at DC to be rock solid and presented appropriately. How loving would I be if I did not warn a blind man that he was about to step off of a cliff? Yet a far worse peril faces those who “step off” of this earth without Christ.
The danger in “loving them” to Christ is (at least) twofold:
1) without presenting sin and the law, they would never see the need for a Savior…
2) we know not the hour when they will step off of the earth (and they WILL!). “Hey! watch out for that cliiiiiiiiiiiiff!” – too late.
Remember, as “tough talk” as the law is to hear, it is the schoolmaster that shows us the perilous state we as sinful creatures are in:
Galatians 3:24 “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”
Only THEN, is the person ready to hear the Good News!
Romans 5:8 “but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
The Good News is that by REPENTING of our sins and putting ALL OF OUR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, we have been saved from the wrath of God… God’s wrath is what we had deserved!!
Romans 5:9-11 9″Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
What a Good and Kind God we have!
Sally, please leave the bars alone and spend that time in God’s Word.
Hebrews 4:12 “12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
Soli Deo Gloria!
– Jeff H
BTW, DC staff, my wife has endured (with God’s grace) temporary blindness (retinopathy), neuropathy, a heart attack with bypass surgery at the age of 36 (more than a decade ago) and now has a defibrillator/pacemaker implant, chronic infections, and more…
She has NEVER blamed the Lord, but rests in Him and His grace for her comfort.
I wonder if some of the “pastors” out there nowadays would tell her to her face that she’s living her best life now?
I can assure you, they would come away with an earful!
😉
May the Lord continue to bless your ministry!
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Dear Jeff H:
Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.
May I encourage you and your wife to check out an old DefCon post and listen to the short 10 minute audio contained therein? It is truly a help and encouragement for those who suffer in this life, and I trust you will both be blessed by it. Check it out here: Suffering Christianity vs Chipper Christianity.
Stay the course & never compromise,
– The Pilgrim
P.S. I made the correction you requested. :o)
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Jeff H, Thank you so much for your wife’s testimony! It is so true. This world isn’t supposed to be perfect, we are supposed to have trials and tribulations and I fear for those millions of people falling for this false teaching. I used to think that if we had them then we weren’t Christians. But it really means that satan has no need to mess with us because we are too worldly if we don’t have them.
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Pilgrim,
You asked Sally, Now, I still don’t understand how your test diminishes what we say or in some way devalues our opinions. It sounds like she has Sotomayor Syndrome. You know, when you think that a wise Latina woman can make a better decision than a white male.
Sally,
If it’s “diversity” you want, let me inform you of my local ministry: My wife and I work with an inner-city church located smack-dab in the middle of one of the largest (and poorest) housing projects in the SE United States. It’s the housing project in Knoxville where people go when they can’t get into any other projects. I lead the men’s Bible study, and my wife works with the children.
Or what, you thought we simply hid inside our glass fortresses on Sunday mornings? You know, it almost sounds like you are being as judgmental about us as you claim we are about others. That, if we don’t live up to your ideal level of “diversity” that we are somehow not qualified to talk about Scriptural matters.
I suppose, then, that you think that God was too “narrow-minded” by limiting the OT priesthood to males from the family of Levi? Or that you think Jesus was too exclusive by saying “NO ONE comes to the Fathe rbut through me.” That said, we are not limiting who can enter the kingdom of Heaven. There will be those of every tribe, tongue and nation.
But God has decreed that only those who believe in Christ Jesus and turn away from their sins will enter His kingdom. For example, in Luke 9:62, Jesus said, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Those aren’t my words. Those are the words of our Lord. And if we don’t stand up for the truth, then we will one day have to answer for our neglect.
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Pilgrim,
Thank you for sharing the post and audio, friend.
The cross eclipses all false “gospels”. They are puny! The cross is HUGE!
John Piper preaching is excellent. I’ve always been fed by the Lord through it.
“Church is chipper! TV is chipper! Books are chipper! We’re a chipper people!”
It’s a house of cards, or more correctly – a house built on sand:
Matthew 7:24-27 24″Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
…and what do you say when the storm hits? But, when people see your house being lashed by the winds and rain and that it stands because its foundation is Jesus, the body of believers is often encouraged. I have seen and heard this many times in my Church.
Can you imagine John Bunyan if he had no hope of the resurrection?
Romans 6:5 “If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.”
Thanks be to God!
– Jeff H
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Hi Pilgrim,
I made another typo in my last posting.
My daughter pointed out that I called John Bunyan PAUL Bunyan!
“Can you imagine Paul Bunyan if he had no hope of the resurrection?”
OOOOPS.
My daughter wanted to know if Paul Bunyan brought his blue ox to his sermons… :-0
Please fix my error so my face won’t be so red….
Thanks!
– Jeff H
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Pilgrim, and others,
It’s maybe best if I step aside from Def Con. There’s too much here that I have a problem with.
But before I go –
Jeff H – there’s a mountain ridge in western Colorado called the ‘Fossil Ridge’, because thousands, millions of fossils of sea creatures (shellfish etc) turn up in the rocks there, for a human eye, such as you have, to see. But Colorado is not near the coast, as any atlas will confirm. Can you explain to me how those shellfish got there and got fossilized in the rock?
DefCon writ large: one more point if you’ll allow me to make it. Please be less assured that what you say is right. You are human too, and capable of error. Something that is a no brainer for you, is anything but a no brainer to another person, and vice versa. Obvious, you might think. So what do I mean by that?
Let me illustrate this with an analogy. In football terms, you might be ‘fundamentalist’ Cowboys fans; born and bred, and still passportless, in Dallas. Yet every week in the fall you see these lost souls (in your eyes at least) who follow the ‘Islamic’ Steelers, the ‘Hindu’ Broncos or the ‘Buddhist’ Packers. You may want to go a mission to Pittsburgh, or Denver, or wherever, to convert them.
But to be serious – as you’ll agree, supporting any one NFL team is no better, and no worse, than supporting any other – because _everything depends on your own experiences_.
I’d ask you to accept that if you had been born in Saudi Arabia, not only would your belief in Islam be just as valid, or invalid, as your actual belief in Christianity, you’d also find it real irritating, forty lashes kind of irritating, if anyone turned up in Jeddah to try to convince you to follow Christ, or the Buddha, or Woden, or Zeus. (Christians used to burn heretics, so we can’t claim any moral high ground.)
What’s real for you is justifiably not real for someone else. There’s therefore nothing that makes you ‘Cowboys’ right and the ‘Broncos’ in Saudi wrong.
So, back to the point I made when I came in three weeks ago: the bereans really need to calm down, make a cup of tea, chill out, and stop saying that other people ‘spew’ things.
Have a good life! Do get out sometimes and have some fun. Too much religion can be deleterious.
As someone once said, ‘if you have been, thanks for reading’.
Sally
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Sally,
Thanks for stopping by. We are always disappointed when people come and choose to leave believing that which is not biblical.
To answer a few points –
1. Colorado – simple answer – worldwide flood that submerged all land under 22 feet of water – Would recommend reading Genesis 1-11 to find what is not being taught literally in most churches.
2. TRUE Christians never burned heretics at the stake. The Roman Catholic heresy, who style themselves as “christian” and “church” have done so, but they are sadly not true Bible believing Christians as defined by the Word of God.
3. You said, “What’s real for you is justifiably not real for someone else. There’s therefore nothing that makes you ‘Cowboys’ right and the ‘Broncos’ in Saudi wrong.” By that comment, I am sure you would have no problem with the gross immorality that is found in the world. You would have to be consistent and say that polygamy, homosexuality, polyandry, bestiality, and sex with underage children must be right because what is “real” for us is not so for others. To be consistent, you will have to make the last stand at the Alamo and declare that Jesus Christ was nothing but a fraud when He stated that He was the ONLY way to heaven.
To conclude, there is much more that could be said, but will not. We do not seek to exalt ourselves here at DefCon, but to exalt the Saviour who was gracious and loving enough to be willing to lay aside His glory, come to this earth as both God and Man, lived a perfect life (the ONLY one to ever do so), was crucified and buried and rose again – all so that He might take the penalty of death that is rightfully due ALL sinners (of which you and I and every Buddhist, Muslim, Hindus, Catholics, Protestants in the world), and because He became the Perfect Lamb of God and Perfect Sin-Bearer – all this allows us to come before God clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. However, all this is possible only by placing one’s faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone – and as the Bible states – WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME – that includes you Sally.
The Desert Pastor
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Hi Sally,
“Jeff H – there’s a mountain ridge in western Colorado called the ‘Fossil Ridge’, because thousands, millions of fossils of sea creatures (shellfish etc) turn up in the rocks there, for a human eye, such as you have, to see. But Colorado is not near the coast, as any atlas will confirm. Can you explain to me how those shellfish got there and got fossilized in the rock?”
Certainly. To expand a little bit from Desert Pastor’s concise response, I’ve assemble the verses from Scripture that specifically address the reason for the Flood, God’s covenant with Noah, the description of the Flood itself, and the effects of the Flood:
Genesis 6:9-14 and 17-18
9 “This is the account of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
11 “Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
13 “So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out.
17 “I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you.”
and Genesis 7:18-20 and 23-24
18 “The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.
23 “Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 “The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.”
Being omnipotent, God could have merely killed everyone but Noah’s family with His direct will alone. The Flood, however, demonstrates both God’s just judgment (the wages of sin is death) and His mercy.
His mercy is demonstrated in that whenever a person comes across an artifact of the Flood (such as sea creature fossils embedded in the rocks near the top of a landlocked mountain) he is reminded of God’s judgment of our sin – *and* His provision for forgiveness: Jesus Christ.
Our God is full of loving-kindness, indeed!
In Jesus,
– Jeff
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Sally,
I have been reading what you have to say and in the end I have to shake my head and wonder what this whole thing was about. All you have done is complain and not ONCE have you mentioned what was right in God’s eyes. Do you think you are God? It doesn’t matter what your tests are because in the end, God’s tests are the ONLY ones that matter in this life and the life to come. He says in His word that there is ONLY ONE way of salvation. Your experiences matter not, neither do my experiences. I know this to be a fact because I can get myself to feel “peace” over something that is contrary to the Word of God and find out in the end that I deceived myself! I’ll bet your “experiences” are the same way because truth has nothing to do with experiences! God is truth and God alone is the ONLY ONE WHO MATTERS! Your tests, your questions, your judgmental attitude, your continued comments about people “spewing”…none of this matters in the light of eternity. One day the Lord will look at you in the totality of your sin and you will have to answer whether your ‘experience’ is enough to get you into heaven. God will tell you that your experience is not enough! If you have not done it His way then He will tell you to depart into everlasting punishment!
To be honest, God doesn’t care whether you have traveled the globe or whether you have lived in the same home all your life! We know both kinds of people and know that a person that travels the globe can be just as much misled as the person who never travels.
Sadly enough, just from what I have read of your comments, this leads me to believe that the teachable spirit does not belong to you. You have judged by the world’s judgment and therefore you feel that makes you right. Normal according to your standard is NOT normal according to God’s standard. He has already stated in His Word that TRUE BELIEVERS will be hated by the world and it seems that you have taken sides with the world because Buddhists, Muslims and all the other religions of the world are NOT true believers. Anyone that believes they can get to heaven outside of the shed blood of Jesus Christ is NOT saved. As Voddie Baucham puts it, “Don’t get upset at me, I just deliver the mail!”
You said, “Too much religion can be deleterious.” Actually, all religion can be and is! A true believer is not based on religion but based on a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Do you have this relationship? Have you realized that you are a sinner with the judgment of God over you or do you think that a ‘Christian’ is a person that goes to church. Maybe you think that because you are American that makes you a Christian?
Your last comment makes me wonder if you only came here just to get people to read what you had to say. How sad if that is the case because you will one day lift up your eyes and realize that hell is real, your experiences were worthless and you will hate God for all eternity while enduring the torments of hell for that eternity. Maybe you should become a Berean and start studying the Word of God for truth not just for a way to argue. Ask the Lord to give you a teachable spirit and a humble heart. Ask Him to open your eyes to understand HIS truth according to HIS word! I will be praying for you!
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Mike Murdock is the worst crook I have seen on TV. I called his telephone lines couple of months ago and I said to the lady to tell Mike Murdock that he is the biggest [EXPLETIVE DELETED] ever! I cant believe that he is allowed to lie from TV and to steal from hopeless and old people their savings!
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i do not think mike murdock is a lying,devilish,conniving,cheating,underhanded rotten to the core crook, I KNOW THAT HE IS.and he is not alone these people who sponsors swindlers like him, one more for the bone pile.-STEVE MUNCIE. ipray for these characters that they repent and get right with GOD. so they wont die and go to hell and take gullible people with them may GOD help us all. amen
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I recently installed a satellite dish. While switching channels and checking out what was available I came across the ”camp meeting” on the inspiration channel with Mick Murdoch and honestly I couldnt believe my eyes.
Mick Murdoch is a very intelligent man and an effective public speaker. I can imagine many were sucked into his preaching until right at the end when the request for money came in, and not only a small amoint of money but a huge amount. He indicated that God and the Holy Spirit spoke to him. Does he now claim to be a prophet? One guy on the channel a few days later did claim to be a prophet. He indicated that God has more favor for credit card donations than via cheque. He appealed for cash with promises appealing to those in most need of cash who would add more to their credit card debts grasping at straws to change their lives. Its crazy television and a crazy ministry in my view.
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I actually came across this website because i was watching Mike Murdoch at about 2:30am and was concerned about some of what he was saying on prosperity. I have listened to Mikes preaching for many years and consider him to have words of wisdom, however i am not particularly comfortable with some statements he makes about money and prosperity which i can not support biblically.
While reading through this page i was intrigued by the back and forth between sally and others. I wanted to ask a few questions and make a few comments on what i feel are the relevant issuses at hand. I would like for all to consider this:
the first and most important is:
A) As Christians, what is the final authorithy for what we believe and what should shape our opinion and world view?
i believe that for us to have a profitable discussion we must address this question. here is my submission:
THE BIBLE IS OUR FINAL AUTHORITY on any and all issues of life and living. If we do not agree on this then WE WILL HAVE A PROBLEM. other sources MAY be quoted as long as they line up with THE WORD OF GOD
B) Is there a SINGLE PRESCRIBED MODE/METHOD/PROCESS/STRATEGY/STYLE for delivering the truth or Good news to the world as prescribed by the scriptures?
NO!!!! There is no single method, however in principle the gospel must be delivered in love in such a way that its message is not watered down and spiritual words are used to convey spiritual truths.
C) What are the possible MODE/METHOD/PROCESS/STRATEGY/STYLES that could be employed in the preaching of the gospel or declearing the truth.
This question is were i think (i could be wrong) sally differs with this site
Methods include:
1) confrontational-“withstanding to the face”
Gal 2:11-12–Paul rebuked Peter for his wrong action (beautifully put in the message bible)
Mat 3:6-8–Jesus called the pharisees “generation of vipers”
2) Parable- analogy with interpretation
Mat 13:18—-Parable of the sower, teaching on the word of God in the heart of the hearer
3) Lifestyle-Example then lesson
John 13:13-15 Jesus taught the desciples a lesson in humility and servanthood by example
4) Finding common ground (cultural competence/different point of view) then discussion
1Cor 9: 19-23—-Paul became “all things to all men”(within scriptural limits) that he might win some.
The way message bible puts it is so clear i am tempted to duplicate it here:
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (The Message)
Even though I am free of the demands and expectations of everyone, I have voluntarily become a servant to any and all in order to reach a wide range of people: religious, nonreligious, meticulous moralists, loose-living immoralists, the defeated, the demoralized—whoever.I DIDN’T TAKE ON THEIR WAY OF LIFE. I KEPT MY BEARINGS IN CHRIST—BUT I ENTERED THEIR WORLD AND TRIED TO EXPERIENCE THINGS FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW I’ve become just about every sort of servant there is in my attempts to lead those I meet into a God-saved life. I did all this because of the Message. I didn’t just want to talk about it; I wanted to be in on it!
5) Reflective questioning- “Who amongst you…”, “what do you think…”
Acts 8:29-31–Phillip asked the eunuch, do you understand what you are reading?
Mat 16:13-17–Jesus asks his disciples who they think He is.
6) others–the list above is not exhaustive.
In the above is, possibly, where the difference lies. Some people favor one sytle above the other or find that one method fits their environment and context better than others.
I belive we need to agree on principles and choose methods that effectively communicate the gospel truth.
D) Above all, we should be sensitive to the Holy Spirit because we could be doing or attempting to do what we think is “SCRIPTURAL” and yet be in DISOBEDIENCE (hey did i just say that-yep!!!)
Acts 16:6-8 (King James Version)
6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were FORBIDDEN OF THE HOLY GHOST TO PREACH THE WORD in Asia,
7 After they were come to Mysia, THEY ASSAYED TO GO INTO BITHYNIA: BUT THE SPIRIT SUFFERED THEM NOT.
8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
As scriptual and biblical as it would have been for Paul to go and preach the word in Asia and Bithynia, they would have been living in disobedience had they not heard the Holy Spirit and submitted themselves to His leading. We have to becareful even when speaking the truth to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit as to how and when He may want us to do so.
The above is my humble submission. May God bless us all
Your Brother in Christ
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I was watching TV late last night and came across Mike Murdoch. I was especially convicted by what he said about faith in God and servitude. I felt that he had much to say that I needed to hear. I did not see the end of his talk or his pitch for money and I am glad I was spared that. I believe that God uses people to reach us and that he especially uses broken vessels (as we all are broken). I came here simply to check him out because I know that there are charletons out there and I was thinking about buying his book. And . . . what I found was tantamount to a beating about the head and shoulders with the Bible. Mr. Murdoch might be a crook but I have in me the spirit of discernment (the holy spirit). If I only seek out prosperity sermons then all I will get is prosperity. We are in charge of seeing to it that we receive the steady and varied diet of what we need to be a whole and healthy Christian. Mike said, “read the bible, feed your mind, have faith in God.” All seem wise to me. That does not make him necessarily wise nor a god. I am grateful for God’s wisdom wherever it is found.
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hey brothetr mike ive been trying to raise money for my dad he has lungcancer;copd.and aleaking vaulve to his heart and thea say its none careable and he dont have much longer but onley god noes that i was waching ur searmon last night and praying for a mircal right before u came on and i havent been able to receaive that channle and thean it just comes in god said like ive told u in the past ask and u shall receaive and i turned it all over to him last so all i can do is leave it whith u and him and its for meadical bills and etc.and i receaived two warrents in the mail last week and hes stressing hes sealf prettybad ontop of all his meadacial bills he dont wont me in jail if he passes away soive did what god said to and imtrusting ain my faith and praying may god bless u
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Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Servant to mammon. the gospel of covetousness.Thats my opionion of mike (mammon) murdock.
Love you guys
Timmy
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What a sad thing to say, fourpointer. If they told me that they were saved, by believing on Jesus Christ, I would tell them they are saved. ALL we have to do is to believe on Jesus (Acts 16:30-31, John 3:14-16, John 3:36, Galatians 2:16-21, AND MANY MORE). Salvation is free, buddy. Stop perverting the Bible.
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If you believe this stuff that Murdock and the other money beggers say, then you do not believe that Holy Bible.
The bottomline is this. If it is God’s plan and He is in it, no one has to beg or preach for money. God does not provide what we “want” but He will always provide what we need.
Just imagine this. If most people on the face of the earth began to follow these “giving/harvesting” plans, there would not be enough money to go around. This is designed for a only the few that are fool enough to beg.
And, a man (or woman) that truly has God in their hearts does not desire the worldy things such as expensive cars, jets, mansions, etc.
Some of that money is given by trusting people thinking they are “helping” others.
These people are fools, they will burn in the same Hell that they preach about.
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K, here ya go guys. Tear me up but this may interest you. I am 61 now and I donated a seed offering to MM when I was 23 or so at our local church. Here is a thumbnail of what followed:
I was born into very humble and religious home. Rebelled strongly as a teen, returned to the church post adolescence (obviously), married, had a great kid (physics grad student at a prestigious NE school), tried several failed business efforts, divorced, got an opportunity to work with some smart folks in my profession, worked very hard, learned a lot, lost interest in the church again (divorcees not so cool ya know), met a wonderful lady (in a bar), (school administrator), married again, lived happily ever after in not so humble circumstances these days – modern lakefront home & toys.
I never lost interest in God. From the famous “Wooden Bowl” poem “angels have walked beside me all my life–and they still do”. Did MM help me? – possible but I doubt it, someday I will know. Am I on his staff – hardly. Am I still sending him checks – only the one years ago ($50 – hard earned).
I saw him on tv the other day for about 5 minutes. He really has changed in 40 years and it makes me sad to think about his life style if what I read is true – it doesn’t sound happy.
I think God wants us to be happy, live in peace as much as possible and help each other. It’s really all about love.
Don’t bother trying to point out the err in my ways. Believe me, I’ve heard it, tried it.
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Bob,
What do you have to say about Jesus Christ?
In Him,
CD
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Apostle’s creed <– ya, i'm down. Wanna talk details? That's cool if you don't take the typical judgemental stand that is routinely regurgitated by all the so called "true believers". My opinion is that they are under the control of some other MM puppeteer (prophet, false or similarly misguided) type that proport to lay out a road map to Nervana. One size does NOT fit all.
You really need to give something more specific than "Jesus Christ" to work with (ya, that's a preposition at the end of a sentence). The best I can do is to say I want to be like him. Really. But, I don't see him ranting in a legalistic fashion like a lot of Church PPS do.
After 15 years I never found a life partner in church. I did find a lady that truly loves me, ya, in a bar. 20 years down the road she still does. I'm happy, are you? Maybe you should share some of your real life experience. No hyperbole, please.
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I was referring to the Person and work of Christ Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of lords. In what way or ways do you “want to be like Him”? Please be specific. When Jesus cleansed the temple of those who sold, and overturned the tables of the money-changers and told them they had made His Father’s house into a den of thieves do you think He was being legalistic, or ranting? How about when He compared the Pharisees to whitewashed tombs filled with corruption because their form of man-made righteousness was based on their own “good works” so-called as opposed to being the righteousness which only comes from God by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 2:16)?
Jesus Christ said that no one would see the kingdom of God unless he was born-again (John 3:3). That’s sounds pretty narrow-minded and exclusive, doesn’t it?
Would you say that you’re born-again, Bob?
In Christ,
CD
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I think what CD is trying to say is, do you see Jesus Christ as your one and only hope for salvation from the wrath of God because of your sins? Or is He simply a road map to material wealth and temporal blessing? (like Mike Murdock and his type)
As far as After 15 years I never found a life partner in church. I did find a lady that truly loves me, ya, in a bar. 20 years down the road she still does.–big deal. What does that have to do with anything? Are you sure it’s not a case of “the world loving its own”?
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Didja miss my reference to the apostle’s creed? Here’s how that goes:
1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and life everlasting.
i’m not sure about the holy catholic church bit but yes, I’m down with the rest of it, born again, spirit filled etc……….
I thing Mike Murdock started out that way based on first hand knowledge from 40 years ago. I also think the perpetual doses of the Church machine isn’t good for anyone. It has been his life.
______________________________________________________________–
In what way or ways do you “want to be like Him”? Please be specific.
From an earlier post “I think God wants us to be happy, live in peace as much as possible and help each other. It’s really all about love.”
Beyond that there is the “still, small voice”. I don’t always listen but I try. One thing I try to avoid is putting God in a box. Paul said “For now we see through a glass, darkly”. 1 Corinthians 13 says it all
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Thanks Bob.
It sounds like you profess to be a Christian. In other words by referring to the Apostle’s Creed, and by professing to be “down with” being born-again and Spirit filled you would self-define as being a Christian, a follower of Christ, is this correct?
The reason I’m asking for clarification is because you come across as being a bit less than positive about the professing visible church. Perhaps you were deeply harmed by a past church experience, for example an abusive leader, or legalistic browbeating denomination, etc.
I would suggest that there is no such thing as a “Lone Ranger” Christian (excepting for possibilities such as a believer being placed in extended solitary confinement by a repressive government, etc.), because the new nature imparted by God in the new birth always and everywhere longs for the fellowship of the saints; God’s visible covenant community on earth. Certainly every local congregation has wheat and tares, goats and sheep, but it’s in the communion of the saints in the holy catholic (little “c”) church where God’s people sit under the pure preaching of the Word, receive God-ordained exhortation, and if necessary rebuke and discipline, and properly receive the sacraments instituted by the Lord of Glory Himself – water baptism and the Lord’s Table.
The local church is also the place God has ordained for His saints to discover and humbly employ their Spiritual gifts which He liberally gives to all His children for the building up of His church, and to the praise of His glory. Since you profess Christ, I would strongly encourage you to consider your high calling and examine yourself in the light of Scripture.
If you’re not bearing the fruit of the Spirit in your daily life, if you’re not growing in grace and sanctification in Christ, and if you find the church to be repellant, then it’s very possible – even likely – that you’re not truly born-again, but rather that you are deceived.
In Christ,
CD
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Like I said earlier “Don’t bother trying to point out the err in my ways. Believe me, I’ve heard it, tried it.” AG, Methodist, Interfaith. 36 years i tried it. Married a woman and had a child in the “Church”. Didn’t last. God is not to blame for that. Holding onto the thought that he was my safety net while playing the church game did not serve me well. Or maybe it did. I learned a lot there.
Christians are everywhere. Investing in those around me (saints and sinners) seems to work very well. If there were a church that seemed real to me and my wife, it would great. But it is difficult to see the benefit in letting some church program take over, stealing quality time and telling me how to run my life. It’s ok to grow fruit outside the vineyard where fruit is not so plentiful. BTW, you danced eloquently around Matthew 7:1.
I am evaluating a book that my son suggested called “A Course In Miracles”. Have it on my Nook. Huge piece of literature and it does have some interesting perspectives such as this quote
“Nothing real can be threatened, Nothing unreal exists, Herein lies the peace of God.”
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Thanks again, Bob.
May I recommend another book that you might consider adding to your Nook? Sometime try reading through “The Gospel According to Jesus” by John F. MacArthur, Jr. Also if you’re so inclined I would be happy to do some research and recommend a church in your area that you and your wife might consider visiting. If you’re not comfortable putting your geographic location on the ‘net you can e-mail me privately at axeroot@hotmail.com.
In Christ,
CD
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Thanks for the tip and investment. Obviously, you think this book is real and I respect that. I am always searching for wisdom on all levels and will take your recommendation seriously.
I live in northwest of Austin, TX. My soulmate (wife) was raised Lutheran. Incidently, some dictionarys (the one I use anyway) have incorporated her picture into their definition of the word “love”. To reiterate, my background is AG, Methodist, Interfaith. IDK, maybe you see my dilema.
Again, no interest in wasting quality time playing the church game.
Matthew 6
Going to shop for your book now.
Peas
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K, I read the preface of The Gospel According to Jesus” by John F. MacArthur, Jr. and recognize where it is going. Let me ask you, what would you do about some poor 3rd world peasant that has no clue who Jesus is. Infidels, doomed? Since God has perfect knowledge of all things, past, present & future, why would he create circumstances knowing that Multitudes of innocents would be condemned to eternal punishment for a crime of which they have no knowledge. I just can’t my head around that. I gave up long ago at trying to put God in a box. The Bible confirms that NO one will have a perfect understanding of who God is this side of the grave.
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Bob,
Don’t stop with the preface, read the book…your question/objection is addressed therein. Perfect understanding of who God is isn’t required in this life, or the life to come. God’s transcendent, infinite majesty and holiness can never be perfectly understood by finite creatures. We are to be satisfied with what He chooses to reveal to us, because it is more than enough, and vastly more than we deserve.
In Christ,
CD
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K, gimme chapter & page # and I will take a look at its answer. It will be my litmus test.
Also, could you give me a biblical reference for the “rebuke and discipline” you spoke of earlier. Hopefully, you will have something from the New Testament in that regard.
1. The word rebuke IS found. It is open to interpretation. I hope this doesn’t offend you but I can see a range from politely question all the way to smackdown.
Dictionary sez: “Express sharp disapproval or criticism of (someone) because of their behavior or actions”. Tell me, how that balances with Matthew 7:1. I think debate is fine. I love and learn the a lot from good natured, equliateral debate. However, Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed (we assume TLGA)–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence– (You) continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Wouldn’t it be better to merely share insights and learn from each other. On it’s face, if we all knew the absolute truth there would be no disagreements. If we share our insights and observations perhaps we get closer to the truth. There really is no need for anyone to impose their beliefs onto another. John 8:32 31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
2. “Discipline”? um…… I see several references to God’s discipline but can’t find anything about man’s discipline outside the home. I think that part is best left to the professionals, i.e. law inforcement. Just how would you carry out this discipline? Got any examples of how this has been applied from first hand knowledge?
BTW, did you find the perfect church for me. I understand if you don’t have time for all this.
In Truth,
SD
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Bob,
I hope you’ll read the entire book. It’s not that long, and if you’re really interested in the topic we’re discussing then you’ll do me the kindness of carefully considering the position John MacArthur sets forth. I spent a good deal of time reading through your comments and carefully considering my replies, I didn’t just think of some book off the cuff and shoot it to you as a joke. I’m taking our discussion seriously.
In John 17:17 Jesus prays to God the Father asking Him to “sanctify them in the truth, your word is truth”. Jesus Christ is “the Way, the Truth, and the Life”. God is the speaker of truth, and His people are first hearers and recipients of the truth, and secondly proclaimers of the truth. God never promises that His people will attain to “absolute truth” in the sense of a perfect understanding, however He does promise that all His people will hear His voice, and follow Him – humbly, haltingly, often even failingly, but nevertheless faithfully. He’s patient and kind and gentle with His children, as a loving Father, yet He also corrects and chastises all those who come to Him, again as a loving Father.
There’s no such thing as a “perfect church”, just as there’s no such thing as a “perfect Christian”, at least not on this side of glory. If you’re serious, and if you’ll commit to actually visiting with your wife, then I will do the research as promised and point you to a local church in the greater Austin area. Deal?
In Christ,
CD
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I’m down with that. On your sincere advice, I’ll go buy the book.
I set you up with that “perfect church” line. But, seriously, if you have a NW Austin church to recommend I will bring it up with the wife. Y’know she is a STRONG Lutheran but, as you might expect, reminds me so much of my AG Mom, redefining the word love (human love neway) every day of her life.
I just watched a snipet of Mr. Armstrong’s sermons. Um…….. Maybe I’m just over sensitive to religious hyperbole, not that there is anything wrong with that. Interestingly, were it not for my past association with Mike Murdock you and I would not be having this discussion.
In Truth,
SD
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Let’s back up. Gimme th’ facts. Don’t abdicate your opinion to some book<ya, itsa cop-out! Tell me what YOU think and back it up with facts or scripture. Otherwise, just slump away silently like you live with preference to being very noisy in some circles of mindless orbs that hang on your every word.
BTW, don’t sweat offering your opinion concerning a perfect church. None such exist and as soon as I join, well, there goes the neighborhood. OMGROFL. It is so comical that many “true believers” proport to see themselves as God’s voice to the unwashed masses. C’mon, smell th’ coffee.
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First, John 20:19-23:
…Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” …The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
How does this balance with Matthew 7?
Um……….
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Bob,
I guess I’m having a little trouble keeping up. At first you indicated that you “never lost interest in God” and that you were “down” with the Apostles Creed and being born-again, etc.; and you seemed to indicate a willingness to read The Gospel According to Jesus and visit a church in the greater Austin area, but now it seems like you’ve changed your mind – at least on the last two items.
In your two most recent posts it seems like you’re a.) resorting to insults, and b.) posing a question about the harmony of two of the Gospels, but I don’t understand the parallel, paradox, or perhaps the alleged contradiction that you’re asking about.
I appreciate your honesty though. I had been researching churches in the greater Austin area and as of last night I had narrowed my list down to a few possible options, but I didn’t have the chance to review them deeply enough to make an informed recommendation.
You’ve saved me some wasted time, and for that I’m thankful.
In Christ,
CD
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I apologize since I am the one that made the first reference to an external resource (the book my son and I are reading). This should be about the facts. It would be a daunting task for you to find the right church or right book for me. Impossible, really. That’s my job.
So, if you want to talk about the parallel, paradox, or perhaps the alleged contradiction that I refering to there are numerous contradictions in the bible. This is just one. On the one hand, Matthew 7 says “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Then we have John 20:23 >> If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Can you see the question here?
Your earlier comment about “rebuke and discipline” may have spawned a feeling of discomfort for me concerning your motivation. You side stepped that question. If you do not want to respond directly to the points I raise then we are both wasting our time.
In Truth (is that like “In Christ”)
SD
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Bob,
If there were truly actual contradictions in the Bible then it couldn’t be trusted, and everyone might as well eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. But there are no actual contradictions in the Bible, because it’s God’s inspired, inerrant, and infallible Word. When human beings, as fallen sinful creatures, stumble across passages that seem contradictory then we ought to realize that the problem lies in our understanding, not in God’s Word, and we ought to then humbly and prayerfully seek His guidance and study more diligently in the light of His revealed truth, comparing Scripture with Scripture.
However to your specific point about the alleged contradictions in Matt. 7 and John 20, there’s simply nothing there. The straightforward and uncomplicated explanation is that the contexts of the two passages are completely different. In Matt. 7 Christ is pointing out the human tendency to quickly and easily “see”, and attempt to correct the “sins” we perceive in others even as we are blind to our own sins (see verse 3), thus He is calling for righteous judgment in contradistinction to self-righteous judgment, which is fallen man’s natural sinful inclination.
In John 20:19-25 the resurrected Lord Jesus is giving ministerial instructions to His apostles, the foundation of the church, and He is committing to them the ministry of the Gospel of the kingdom. He is not committing to them the power to forgive, or to not forgive sins. Forgiveness of sins is a divine prerogative, not a human one. What the Lord is teaching in this passage is that the church is commissioned with the Gospel message that is perhaps best encapsulated in the single most famous passage in the entire Bible – John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should perish, but have eternal life.”
Those who believe in Him have their sins forgiven. On the flip side however John 3:16 has an equal and opposite interpration internally implied, to wit whoever does not believe in Him qill perish, and have eternal condemnation. Although this is immediately obvious in the context, John goes on in verse 18 to state this implicit interpretation very explicitly: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
This is precisely what Jesus was referring to in John 20:23 – the church can definitively and authoritatively speak to the mass of fallen humanity and proclaim that anyone’s sins are forgiven if they trust in Christ as Lord and Savior (John 3:16), while at the same time it can definitively and authoritatively proclaim to the same hearers that no one’s sins are forgiven who do not believe (John 3:18).
I hope this helps.
In Christ,
CD
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If YOU FORGIVE anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” is this a match for “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God”?
Um………
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Bob,
I already explained this once. As I said the last time, the passage in context refers to the church’s proclamation of forgiveness of sins to those who believe, and the proclamation of lack of forgiveness (guilt) to those who don’t. Forgiveness/unforgiveness are based on believing or not believing upon Christ and Him alone for salvation, and the means God uses is His people, the church. Clearly in context “YOU” wasn’t referring to a single person, or only to the people to whom Christ was speaking because they’re all dead, and if they were they only individual people He specifically and personally commissioned and empowered to forgive or not forgive sins then we’re all in a heap of trouble. But happily that’s not the case, as the context and comparing Scripture with Scripture clearly demonstrates. Instead it was referring to His people, the church and to their Gospel commission throughout the age.
I’m not sure what you mean when you ask if the two passages referenced are “a match”. What do you mean by “a match”? One passage is speaking of the Gospel commission of the church, and the other is demonstrative of one aspect of that commission, the continued obstinate unbelief of those who don’t belong to Christ.
In conclusion if I were you I’d be a little concerned about sneering at God’s Word and suggesting that it is filled with nonsensical contradictions since that attitude belies a rather low and spiritually unhealthy view of Scripture.
In Christ,
CD
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All this talk about God, religion and the bible and yet there is absolutely NOTHING
biblical about Mike Murdock. Supporters of his are hilarious. They are totally out of their minds and clueless about this vulture. Murdock’s pitch is designed for one thing and that is to get the viewer to send him (or whoever he’s shilling for) some cash in order to get a huge return, like God is some sort of slot machine. The guy is sick. GOOD GRIEF, he asks those in poverty to send him $1000 to (quoting Murdock) “break the back of poverty”!!!! Think about that. Totally insane! He belongs in prison and hopefully this new book, “Thieves” , will expose him even more for the crook that he is, though just watching him on TV for two minutes you’ll realize immediately he’s scum. Murdock has nothing to do with God or religion, he’s about one thing, MONEY.
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Bob,
Here’s a very good, biblically solid church in central Austin. I’ve visited it and had good conversation with the elder who preached that day as well as some members. If I lived in Austin, this is THE church I would belong to: http://www.dsf.org/Welcome.html
Regarding the Course in Miracles, I recommend this review: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/thcourse.html
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I can only comment on my experience. I am not a judge of Mike Murdoch. I am not permitted to judge is salvation or his soul. God is merciful. Of course, we are to be discerning.
This is a fact: At one of the most down times in my life, God ABSOLUTELY used him to affect my life for the better. A message from him changed my walk with God. I am not judging him, NOR am I defending him. I just know what I know: his teaching changed my life, and yes, what he teaches is Scriptural, although I may not agree with everything, as he is a fallible man.
Two other observations: His calling is unique. If it focuses on sewing and reaping, that is because that is the area he is called to. Also, although greed and the love of money is a reprehensible sin, there is a flip side. Money is necessary for ANY endeavor in life. If you want to minister, help the poor, and preach the gospel, you NEED money, and hopefully the more the better.
I do not want to argue with anybody, as they are to know us by our love, but I want to offer a perspective for you to consider.
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Charles, God does not use false teachers teachings to change lives, other than to expose the errors of their teachings. Do you really understand what sowing and reaping means? It has nothing to do with what Murdock claims. I understand Mr. Murdock lives quite lavishly, yet my bible tells me my Lord did not have a place to lay his head while he ministered. None of the disciples lived lavishly either, so how can these TBN health and wealth preachers claim God wants you to prosper and be rich? The true Gospel calls for dying to self, picking up your cross and following Christ who stated it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. The Lord also said whoever does not forsake all he has cannot be his disciple.
I pray you will study God’s word for yourself and cry out for His wisdom.
When Jesus gave the parable of the soils, he spoke of sowing a seed, seed being God’s word and ‘sow’ being the scattering of His word. Murdoch twists God’s word and promises that God will give back more than you could imagine. You need to understand something, the Lord has already given more than we could ask or deserve…He gave Himself. Isn’t that enough?
Secondly, God owes us nothing. I do not give expecting anything in return, I give for the furtherance of the Gospel; not so some huckster can wear designer suits, have his hair dyed and teeth whitened and wear Rolex watches while he lives in a mansion.
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I have a comment about Mike Murdock, I watch this Guy just to get a laugh and wonder if people are that stupid, listen to Murdock all he talks about is plant a seed and that is no Tomato seed he is talking about every time I turn the TV on that is all you here plant a seed or the seven laws also the one that cracks me up that God talks to him.
On the other hand not once I turned the TV on seen or heard him mention or showing helping any poor family or anyone in need. Mike Jesus did tell the rich guy when I was hungry you didn’t feed me and thirsty you didn’t give me water, you can fool people by your fancy talk but you can’t fool God the last laugh will be on you Murdock.
Here is my 2 cents.
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if people are foolish enough to send money to these con artist.so what they have icthy ears
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If you look at the members in the audiances at all of these “give me money” events, it is most typically people that are waiting for someone else to do something for them as they sit on their over weight rears. Full of fools, entitled people, etc.
I sat with Mike on a flight. In all fairness, he is a bright, clever, and very articulate individual who is well educated. However, he is simply using the Bible, the fear of God, the guilt of people, to boost his bank accounts.
Read this and allow it to sink in: A true man of God has absolutley no desire to “own” or live a lavish lifestyle. Being comfortable, living a modest lifestyle is what God would have them do.
So, when you see the mansions on Earth, the limosines, the airplanes, those are Earthy gifts, have nothing to do with God.
God has never “told” any modern man or woman to “travel the Earth” to spread the gospel. This is simply their egos that go out of control once they smell all of the millions of dollars that can be made by fooling people in to thinking that they were “sent by God.”
Keep your money, God will talk to anyone that will talk to him, you do not need a “middle man” or woman for that matter.
God did not put any man on Earth “over” any other man, read the Bible.
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Unfortunately, i have a confession. I have given up on chiristianity. It has ripped me off and ruined my life up to the point of suicide. Mike Murdock is just one example of thousands of so called christians who have ruined my life. I hope that they have their special place in hell reserved just for them. Its always about control and money. Control and money! ALWAYS! I wonder why God doesnt take them out.
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Charles,
Please understand, Mike Murdoch and thousands like him do NOT represent true biblical Christianity. Many prostitute the word of God for personal financial gain as well as sexual favors. The bible warns repeatedly of false teachers and their true motive. They are not Spirit filled but instead have just enough knowledge to mislead those who are misinformed or under-informed.
Christ died to save the ungodly Charles, He died to free us from the bondage of sin and its consequences…the wrath of God. He did not die so we could have a comfortable life here or a fat bank account. As a matter of fact, the Lord Jesus tells us in Luke 14:33 “So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple”, meaning if Christ is not first in your life, if He isn’t your all in all, then He has no part in you. The Apostle Paul tells us what we should be content with in 1Timothy 6:8 “But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.”
Your only hope is in trusting in the finished work of Christ, His atoning sacrifice for sin. God is holy and will punish all sin, I strongly urge you to cry out for mercy Charles. Forget about the temporal things this world has to offer, none of it is lasting. I distinctly remember a statement made by the late Whitney Houston concerning all her wealth, she said, ‘money does not make you happy’. It was apparently so in her case. Don’t long for temporal riches, a fancy home, a nice car, money in the bank; all this is fleeting. Your life is a vapor Charles and your time on this earth grows shorter with each passing moment. You will die, as we all will, and step into eternity. To die without Christ is to spend forever in eternal punishment, pain, agony, torture. Do not let wolves in sheep’s clothing like Mike Murdoch discourage you from the true Gospel – the sacrifice Christ made for sin and reconciling sinners back to a right standing before a God who is holy, holy, holy. Murdoch will face severe wrath for his lies and perverting of truth for selfish gain. Believing in Christ means a complete surrender to Him, a forsaking of sin and trusting in His death, burial and resurrection as atonement/payment for your sins against God.
May God be gracious to you, may He bring you to repentance and save you from eternal wrath. Trust in Christ and believe in what He has done as satisfying God’s anger against your sins Charles.
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I to was watching the Mike Murdock garbage and being a believer thought he was basing his stuff on Biblical scripture to help us understand where we can do a better job Biblically, then the two words that should raise red flags for any believer “seed sowing”, then I knew. No, no, no!!! Shame on all of them.
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I too have watched Mike Murdock several times on T.V., and noticed some things that just did not sit right with me. The times when he says “you are watching me right now because God caused you to hear this right now, it is no accident”…then he would proceed to say that a certain amount of people should give “X” amount of money and God would turn everything around for them. I am a strong believer in sowing and reaping and contrary to one of the previous letters above, God does want his followers to be blessed and prosper. Without prosperity and blessings how could we possible help the poor and send missionaries to third world countries to preach the gospel. He said to go into all the world and preach the gospel It is very costly to do this and the devil wants believers to think it is wrong or sinful to have money. He would prefer the drug dealers and the heathen to have money so that they can spend it on sinful pursuits and drag others into hell with them. There is a balance here and I think that many have misinterpreted the scripture on both sides. However, since I know that God knows all things, he knows that the reason I need financial help is because I don’t have the thousand dollars or so that the evangelist is asking for, so why would he pressure me to give money that I don’t have at that very moment. And if God is asking me to give this money to that ministry or any other, why did he not even mention it to me before I turned the T.V. on, so that at least there would not be a nagging doubt, but instead the word of the preacher would be a confirmation of what God has already told me? Also, when M.M. started proclaiming”may my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth if what I am saying is for my own personal good alone,” it sounded like a curse and God said we are redeemed from the curse of the law. However, God alone is the judge, and I pray for these men and women to get right if they are not already, and that Gods mercy would transform them into the people He wants them to be, or else get them off of T.V. and into jobs they are suited for. We are to pray for our enemies and friends alike, not wish them harm of any kind. Instead of simply criticisizing them, lets pray for them . Nothing is too hard for God.
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I went to MM’s website tonight after seeing a few minutes of his telecast. He was quite forceful in his request for $1000 donations specifically if you could not afford it. He said that God would enlarge your faith. Of course, you would now need much more faith as you have just given him your rent money..Please be mindful that he make millions a year do just by dressing up and asking people(hardworking people like yourselves) to send him large sums of cash. God does not need your money. MM does not NEED your money. Logic tells me YOU need YOUR money. God said He would supply all your needs…..I do not read anywhere that God is required to reimburse our “gifts”. I found three links to their website, all of them brought me directly to the “place your credit card # here” page. THINK BEFORE YOU SEND.
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The fellow who’s dad said “you must always speak the truth but the truth must not always be spoken” is right. I Would shorten this to “you must always speak the truth but you must not always speak”. Jas.1. [19] Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
I thank GOD that I am not the judge. I just listened to some of Mike Murdock and had to put it on mute more than once. Jesus tells us that his sheep will hear his voice. The Bible is full of teachings and wisdom. I would venture to say that less than 1% is spent talking about money. The primary mission is to spread the Gospel of Jesus The Christ. The bible also spreads a great deal of text teaching us how to live.
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i am speechless. There is only one thing I can say. This program , group and ministry is the work of the devil………….
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I read online on sow a seed from the real deal it says god don’t want money given to the word of god you can sow a seed without money in prayer eventually he will give back mike murdock is a phonny and sucker these people without money forawhile i don’t think mike murdock is probably not real preacher
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How anybody can fall for this crook looking scam artist Mike sow your seed (cash) so I can have God give you a big blessing is beyond me! Someone needs to inform him God already sowed a seed in a Virgin’s womb called Jesus and he is the reason we can go to God freely for our needs (not necessary our greed but need . Romans 8:32.
Regarding TD Jakes is it me or has anyone else noticed when Jakes is yoking up with that New Age Guru, religiious polytheistic Oprah Winfrey he secularizes his messages and rarely mentions God or Jesus? Oprah has been known to be a big money maker and can draw the ignorant masses but how pathetic is that to be like Judas who sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver? Oprah never made a retraction on v very public remark that all religions are a way to God. Jesus said he was the only way, not one of many ways so Oprah basically called Jesus and the bible a liar.
Back to Murdock…there is also an interesting book written about Mike Murdock. It is supposed to be an inside look from MM’s son’s ex-best friend called “Thieves” it shows how disgusting Mike Murdock is behind the scenes the Author is Trey Smith. I’ve yet to hear that Mike Murdock sued Trey Smith for slander. Somehow the book believable. seems believable.
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I ran into one of Mike Murdock’s most devout followers. She hangs on this man’s every word and always has that glassy eyed, creepy look like someone in a cult whose mind is possessed by a strange spirit. Last time I saw that look was on the face of a Jim Jones follower I once knew.That person drank the poison KoolAid in Jonestown Guyana and is now deceased. Some people need someone to put on a pedestal and make into a golden calf idol like some little god, if she ever wakes the heck up she will be in for a huge disappointment that Mike Murdock is such a fraud.
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I had to delete inspirational network off my Christian watching network, I get sick in my stomach when he comes on, I can not understand why they have him on so much, what conn, I like Sbn they don’t use the manipulative games.
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