For those who have a morbid fascination with death, darkness, and the macabre, and want a little religion on the side, fear not, for you don’t have to die to self and become a new creation anymore. Now you too can become a professing Christian and remain a “Goth” at the same time.
Find a whole community of like-minded “Goths” at such sites as:
Christ Alone Wyoming 
for me goths is not about religeon.
its all about subculture and life style
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You actually hit it right on the head in your intro: “for those of you who do not want to “die to self””…..
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If you are not a new creation then you are not in Christ, according to 1Cor 5:17.
If you don’t die to self or deny your self then you are still gratifying your sinful nature. “For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves”–Colossians 1:13
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“Gothic fashion,” isn’t Christianity more than just religion, but ALSO culture and lifestyle?
Please don’t take this as condescending, but you may not realize how demonic that picture looks. Granted, it may only be a traditional bias–but why are red, black, and corpse-white used in the first place by Goths, but in reaction to that bias?
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Why do you put so much emphasis on color? I mean here’s a flipside for ya, red the symbolic (and actual color GASP) of Christ’s blood that washes are sins away, I seem to know of a hymn called “Fountains of Blood” wonderful hymn but it sounds quite morbid as well, Corpse White, techniqueally when we believe in Jesus’ life, death, burial and resurrection we are “undying” undead to this world, Paul says to offer our bodies as living sacrifices Holy and pleasing to God. Ever listen to the Johnny Cash song “Man in Black”? Look up the lyrics and that’s pretty much why I (and probably most of the Christian Goth subculture wears black as it is). Forgive me if I came off as hostile or rude but please try and put aside stereotypes and biases and get to not only know teens in our subculture (secular and Christian) but also the subculture as a whole instead of going off of media reports and preconcieved thoughts.
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There is more to being a Christian and a Goth than can be explained in a text window.
For me, my faith and following Jesus is absolute, while being part of the Goth culture is merely a preference that I exercise in my freedom in Christ. In fact, I feel called to be in the Goth community to reach out to others in it. How many Goths do you think would listen to the message of Jesus from a suit wearing straight laced preacher?
My book is God Loves the Freaks, and you can get it on Amazon. If you REALLY want to know how you can be Christian an Goth (or Christian and any other culture type) then I believe it will answer your questions.
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Dear Steve Weese:
Thank you for your comment.
I too used to believe that you had to look like someone to win someone to the Lord. This is not true. The one who believes and promotes this idea must cling to the notion that they themselves have more power and control over the conversion of others than God Himself.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16), not us and how we dress. We need to begin to trust God at His Word and understand that we must decrease and He must increase (Jn. 3:30) . . . in ALL matters. This includes our wants, our likes, our styles, our everything. True Christians are supposed to become bondservants to our Master. It is no longer us that live but Christ in us.
Jesus gave us a solid component of the conversion experience that many seem to miss, overlook, or flat out ignore. He said that if He is lifted up, He will draw all men unto Him (Jn. 12:32). He is the one who does the drawing, not us or how we dress. But He must be exalted by us in our words and in our actions. Our job is to clearly and compassionately preach the gospel (the whole gospel, not just the love part) and God does the rest.
And what is expected of the convert? Well, God beckons us to come as we are, but He doesn’t expect us to remain that way!
Please listen to this sermon. You can stream it or download it. It’s also available to watch on video here. It will definitely help you to understand where I and many others on this blog are coming from.
Respectfully,
– The Pilgrim
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Every time I read/hear that someone has to look/act like the group they are ministering to, I always revert to “The Cross and the Switchblade”; remember the story of Nicky Cruz? A notorious gangbanger, one of the worst in New York City was ministered to by a “skinny, pale, little guy wearing a white shirt and a skinny tie” (that would be David Wilkerson). I think most of us know how that turned out. Yeah, the gangbangers laughed and mocked that white guy, and Mr. Wilkerson just went on and did what God told him to do-preach the Gospel. To think that God just might use someonee who is willing to be a fool for Christ. The sheer audacity of Wilkerson, not looking and acting like the gangs, why would God ever use him?
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Well now you’re comparing apples to oranges for your point; gangster to goth, there’s really no comparison, and I wish we could all get passed this belief that “well they’re looking like the world to reach the world”, that’s not even it at all, in fact to do so would be 1. a witness against Christ and 2. a poser in the goth scene, thus you make an ineffective witness to others in Christ, and be found out immediately in the goth scene that you’re only in it for “the look” (we call those people mallgoths or “doom/gloom cookies”, doom for males and gloom for females, it basically is goth slang for people who are anything but genuine goths). I’m sure most of you are wondering WHAT is goth or what makes a true goth a goth; and there’s actually alot of debate in the scene itself as to what “it” is lol; if you’re thinking pasty white make up and blood red lipstick no, thats hardly it at all lol. “It” that “something” we (as goths) lol don’t know what “it” is, I guess its an appreaciation for dark, morbid, macabre, yet romantic and beautiful things is mine and my girlfriend’s definition for it. As for Christianity, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be compatible in the goth scene, there’s actually quite a lot of Christians in the goth scene, just as there are a lot of secularists, pagans, agnostics and atheists (very few are Satanists), as a Christian in these scene and group of people its not my will to have them renounce black clothing, let their piercing holes close up or any of that, no my job is to preach the word of God to every living person. Its not about looking like the world to “save” the world or reach it, its simply about knowing the people and things around you and using that for God’s glory (read Acts and Paul’s missionary journey to Rome). Also check out this article too please. http://www.angelfire.com/scary/g4j/articles/thegothicjesus.html
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XianGothDude: talk about adventures in missing the point! Obviously, Goths and gangbangers are different. I never meant that they are the same. The point, which you overlooked, was that a mid-western nerd, dressed in the height of late-50’s geek style went into the heart of NYC and ministered, preaching God’s Word to a group of people that were as unlike him as anything you could ever imagine. He didn’t become a gangbanger, he just preached the Living Word, even though they mocked him and did everything they could to disrupt his mission. And lest you think he didn’t “connect” with the gangs, well, he did. God used David Wilkerson and saved numerous people like Nicky Cruz. God continues to use David Wilkerson, today. David Wilkerson has never compromised and become like the people he ministers to. Teen Challenge is all about getting people off drugs. And they succeed. Now, why could he do this, but you feel you have to be a Goth to connect with Goths? Do you suppose it has to do with God’s Holy Spirit? Maybe it really isn’t all about you and me and how we look? Instead, why don’t you become more like Christ, and show your old pals just what it really means to be a Christian? Show them that you care about their eternal souls, and that God will change tham, just like He changed you? But how will they know you are changed, if you continue in darkness?
As far as your “I guess its an appreciation for dark, morbid, macabre” it’s time you read the Bible. Everywhere the Bible speaks of “dark”, it is a synonym for evil. Every time the Bible speaks of “light” it is a synonym for good. Read Eph 5:8. Read 2 Cor 6:14, 1 John 1:6, John 8:12, Matt 5:14, and John 3:21. The Bible continuosly tells us to stay away from darkness and live in the light. The Bible continously tells us that Jesus is Light, NOT dark. If you are truly saved, born again, a child of the living God, you will not want to be part of that darkness. You will want only to be part of the Light. You can reach out to Goths all you want, but you must be different, you must be changed or you are actually no different from them, and you are still dead in your sin.
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This subject is a bit misunderstood for a few reasons.
Goth by itself is religiously neutral. It’s not a culture that bases it’s viewpoint squarely on any one particular faith. What goth has blossomed into is an aesthetic appreciation and expression of a unique viewpoint.
However, what most believers don’t understand about goth is that the Scriptural references of “Darkness” can’t be applied to the subculture’s view of aesthetic darkness, since they are not the same thing.
When the Bible speaks of darkness for instance… “Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness rather than light because their’ deeds were evil.” Jesus was not discussing aesthetic here, but spiritual darkness.
That is where most believers understandably get things wrong. The image of the goth girl above could never be used as a proper estimation of her spiritual awareness. For the same reason that the religious San Hedron misjudged the apostles as “Unlearned Men” in the book of Acts, but were taken soundly off guard by how much Peter and the others really knew and understood about the Scriptures, many Christians assume that cultural inclination can be observed as a way of determing the strength of one’s spirituality. It can’t. For the simple reason that believers have misunderstood their’ own Bibles, and applied that misunderstanding to a culture that is known for it’s dark aesthetic, misjudgement is always the typical result.
To those who are uninvolved with the subculture, let me offer some pointers that I hope will soften some reservations.
First, contrary to what outsiders believe, goths do not worship darkness. You don’t revere what you strip of power by dragging into the light of exposure. A goth who has matured to understand the philosophy beneath the appearance seeks to understand, not mystify the darkness that is at the heart of humanity.
Aesthetic aside, I have often stated that Christians would be shocked at how close gothic philosophy is to basic Biblical Christianity. The apostle would not have made the profound, affirmative statements he made in Romans chapter 7 regarding his’ own internal conflicts had he not put a great deal of time and thought into understanding both his’ dysfunction, and the saving power of Christ. Rather than keeping his’ sinful nature comfortably unconfronted and hidden in the dark, Paul exposed it so nakedly that it left no room for ambiguity.
At the heart of goth, the same desire to understand and expose hidden things exists. We are told in Hebrews to cast off the weights and sins that so easily besets us. Well, you can’t rightly do that if you don’t know the things lurking inside that so easily besets you. This requires deep personal journey.
Secondly, the aesthetic of goth operates as a secondary function. Even young goths don’t typically understand this, so you shouldn’t feel bad about it. The aesthetic is only as important to the subculture as distinctive expression. What happened in the early 80s was that the viewpoint finally had a presentable identity to adopt to distinguish itself aesthetically from both punk and the mainstream. That is why goth has been so long lived and adaptative ever since it’s beginning, and yet so unchanging at the same time. It’s defied all attempts at categorization for one reason alone… it’s not just it’s facade.
You can’t simply remove goth as easily as removing the strange make up, and the black clothes. It’s a deeply entrenched, unique way of seeing yourself and the world around you. Which is why it’s absolutely vital for Christians not to assume that the aesthetic of goth is all there is to the subculture. It’s so much deeper, so much more complex than that. And it deserves a large amount of respect, time and energy to come to see it as it really is. And, that is why it’s crucial to understand the people involved without resorting to aesthetic depreciation. Judging the book by it’s cover will always leave you ignorant of the true story. Christianity should have been far enough along by now to realize this.
Goth is not merely it’s aesthetic. People can adopt the appearance, but lack the substance. But, one really can have the substance without the appearance. It’s a point of view, not a fashion statement.
And yes, Christians can have the gothic bent, and adopt the aesthetic. Because it has nothing to do with the veneration of darkness. Biblically speaking, spiritual darkness is the real danger, not aesthetic darkness.
The darkest spirit in the universe is said by the Scripture to come “Aesthetically Speaking” as an angel of light. And yet, when God… who is the essence of Light descended upon Sinai, He came “Aesthetically Speaking” shrouded in thick darkness and terrifying gloom.
What this basically means is that the appearance never shows the true state of the heart. The moody atmosphere of goth conceals a great deal more good than it’s given credit for.
That is not to say that it can’t be harmful to many believers. I believe the Bible is true when it says that God equips all believers for certain ministries. The “Cross and the Switchblade” story is one that proved that cultural differences didn’t have to stand in the way of ministry. But, what is missed in that story is the fact that the David Wilkerson had no idea what he was doing, but he remained honest about his’ ignorance and allowed the gang members to be his’ teachers as well. This opened the door to his’ being accepted and heard.
If Wilkerson went into their’ midst acting like he knew everything about their’ world, they would have shut him down in a hurry,… and rightfully so. And, we would never have had the story entitled “The Cross and the Switchblade”.
Disregarding the fact that the gothic subculture is not a “Gang”, goths can spot a fake a mile away. And it’s a slap in the face when an outsider thinks they can simply “dress the part” and be a goth. Goths are not that shallow. They would infinitely prefer a Billy Graham type who was honest about his’ ignorance regarding their’ culture than a poseur who insults their’ intelligence by thinking that the look alone will grant him/her all the access they need to minister effectively. That is so far off the mark that many believers would be absolutely devastated at how they have so belittled the understanding, wisdom and strength of character of the people they so patently misjudge, based on nothing more than their’ appearance.
Joel
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Joel that was wonderfully written and exactly what I was trying to say; I have nothing against David Wilkerson, I don’t know who he is but he sounds cool. What I was saying is that one shouldn’t “dress goth to reach goths”, that in and of itself goes against the gothic mindset and like Joel so bluntly put, we can spot a fake a mile away. I think I sort of left myself open with an uneeded amount of ambiguity with my last post. When I refer to the gothic view on things I was referring solely to asethetic, not actual spiritual darkness.
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Actually XianGothDude, I think you expressed yourself really well. My apologies for the length of the last post. Like Steve Weese said above, goth isn’t something we can narrow down to just one paragraph or two without doing it serious injustice.
In reality, I was responding to the prevalent misjudgement that most Christians level at the subculture… that gothic aesthetic goes hand in hand with Scripture’s description of darkness. This is not true. Once believers associate the look with spiritual darkness, they have easily misled themselves. And, it’s understandable to a degree, since the atmosphere of goth is so ripe with mood, and contains by necessity a much broader and deeper emotional awareness than most people are comfortable with.
The only problem a Christian goth could possibly have with the subculture comes in the form of idolotry. If it becomes more valuable to them to be a goth than it is to be a child of God, then there is a problem there that needs to be looked to and addressed.
However, I have never actually come across any gothic believer who was more concerned about their’ goth identity than about their’ relationship with Christ. In fact, it seems that Christian goths can at times be far more devoted believers than mainstream Christians realize. Simply for the fact that they tend to be much more honest about themselves and the world they live in than believers of lesser internal and external awareness.
And, here’s the reason why. Gothic philosophy is confrontive. To younger goths, this confrontive philosophy is expressed in personal tastes. But, as the goth matures, they become aware that gothic philosophy doesn’t have to include the trappings that are associated with the present day subculture. The philosophy is much more of a social consciousness than it is a rebellious phase. Mature goths do have personal aesthetic expressions of their’ identity, yes. But they have come to learn that what makes them “Gothic” could easily go on thriving without the label and externals.
Which is why most mainstream Christians are largely unequipped to minister to goths, because the plain and simple truth is that they have no idea what the subculture is really about. The only real way for mainstream believers to make a difference is to be humble enough to let the goth teach them about goth while the believer teaches the goth about Christ.
That is why the heart of goth is so impossible to pin down to a mere generic description. Because it’s only real foundation exists as staunch, deeply honest and passionately expressed individualism. In essence… you have to know the goth “Personally” if you want to learn about the subculture. Because it’s not like the Star Trek race of uniform cybernetic beings, the Borg. Goths may tend to look similar and act similar… but that is what makes the subculture so mysterious. Outsiders have this simplistic idea about it based on externals, while those within know it to be individually unique rather than just culturally unique. That is what makes gothic people so beautiful, because every single one of them has something singular to bring to, and beautify the whole.
That is why goth has survived as the longest lived subculture. You can’t hold people under one specific ideal without it dying away quickly. Individualism won’t stay buried for long.
But, if your culture thrives off of individual importance, it will go on thriving and thriving and thriving. That is also why the gothic subculture has been known for decades as being the most courteous and welcoming subculture, despite it’s frightening external presentation.
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I COMPLETELY agree with you; you hit the nail RIGHT on the head with every sentence, you’re one of the few people I can honestly say GETS the subculture through and through, and if I may clarify on a few points, I’ve wanted to say on here (but you said it for me) that the goths I know, most of them of Christian belief, are so much more connected to God than any friends I know (myself included). I don’t at all mean to say that in a prideful or boastful way, not at all but I don’t wanna say its a “common fact” but its more like an understated truth (for the most part). I’m not trying at all to put down my other brothers and sisters in Christ I like all of us in Christ am always growing and learning, learning until the day I die really.
I think what bothers me most about Christendom as a whole is the lack of willingness to stretch and go beyond one’s own understanding of the world and life. While many would probably jump on my back and say I’m being universalistic of truth, thats not it at all. I simply wish to know and commune with people regardless of their beliefs, views, creeds, lifestyle whatever. I am firmly grounded in my faith and God; and I think because of that it enables me to do what Jesus has commanded of us all: Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.” I often think when I’m out and about somewhere, no matter what I do; it influences and impacts someone in somewhere, somehow. Be it for good or ill. That is why its so direly important for us as Christians to show the world something different in us and to the conservative Christian they tend to look at it as being isolated (they call it seperate) from the world. But I tend to look at it as going as far into where you are walking in the light and with Jesus, be it a subculture. a place, wherever and see what God does in the midst of it all, through you. Does that make sense?
A common issue that is always brought up to me usually by conservative Christians is that: “I’m looking like the world” and Joel you touched on that but I think alot of times, we don’t really understand anything about “being of the world” vs. in it; what I mean is are we showing the fruits of the spirit in our lives? Are we humble? Are we loving most of all? I think its a rather large tragedy that from an observant viewpoint, no I don’t think we are. I’ll give you an example I was at the mall one time, at the food court and I ordered a subway sandwich and prayed and asked blessing for my food and the day etc. and after I was done eating etc there were two guys sitting at the stools infront of me and they ask me if I was a Christian and I said yes I am and they said they saw me praying and they saw my Cross (I was wearing dangling Cross earring in my ear as well as having Cross jewelry on, but they noticed the Cross from my earring) I asked them if they were. one guy said he was coming to it and I said I’d pray for him and he thanked me. Right there I just impacted a life, I a planted 1 seed and God will do the rest.
That is how it is for me the subculture I am in. People notice something different about me, not me as a person but they notice God in me in my life in the way I act and behave and that is my desire for my life eachday is to reflect God in me to all men. Another story of mine. a few years back I was on a goth chat room talking and getting to know people communing with people and I met this one girl she was a Satanist and the minute she found out I was a Christian since I told her I was unashamedly. She just started cussing me out, saying God was nothing etc. idk what any of you would have done but I met her anger and hosility with kindness and love. She was perplexed and so I pursued in asking her why she was so angry at God etc. she told me she had been raised in a Christian home and this was her first year out on her own and she didn’t believe in God anymore and so I witnessed to her, she broke down in tears, she wanted to know how God could ever love her again for not bellieving in Him like that and being so angry with Him. Right as we were praying over her. She signed off or got kicked off idk. but I believe it was God’s way of saying that He’d take care of the rest :).
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Excellently put XianGothDude.
You handled the girl in the chat room very well. She obviously expected a return attack, but was instead taken off guard by your kindness. That is the way a true Christian works. Nicely done. And, the guys who sat in front of you at the mall’s food court, we have no idea what God is able to do with a short encounter like that. We plant seeds, God waters and gives the increase.
Early last year I was badmouthed by a group of Christians who didn’t like my website. It ended up getting around to my Pastor, but he was pretty cool about it.
The whole thing was understandable, because I couldn’t really expect those who never had anything to do with goth to just simply drop all the media mis-portrayals that had them so fixated against it. So, just like you I adopted a seed planting strategy. I just began posting positive articles about the subculture as well as writing my own articles to help them understand without feeling confronted that goths are so much more than they realized, and not at all like the things they were told.
It’s a foregone conclusion that goth has never really recovered from the backlash of Columbine. When Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold got labeled “Goth” by the media, it set an image in stone within the mainstream mindset. That goths are violent, evil monsters who worship Marilyn Manson, and shoot up public schools. Goths have struggled ever since the shooting to erase that misconception.
Like David Hart said at the time, the subculture would be forced into the light of exposure after the tragic incident, and nothing would ever again be the same. He was absolutely right. Ill-informed media coverage made sure that an entire people-group would get villainized by the actions of two kids who never had anything to do with the subculture aside from occasionally donning the look. And, for nearly a decade, goth subculture has been unjustly stained by that stigmatism.
That is not to say that goth is pure, as there is no culture that ever is. But, we don’t stop calling ourselves Americans just because America promotes abortion and gay marriage. Likewise, it’s not fair for believers to demand that Christians back out of the subculture just because it’s got some problems. God doesn’t send His’ people to “Perfect” people. He never has.
Much love to you man.
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And the same to you; God bless you. Whats you’re email lol I wanna add you on my myspace friends lol.
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And the same to you; God bless you. Whats you’re email lol I wanna add you on my myspace friends lol.
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Here’s my e-mail…
joel_w59@yahoo.com
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I received the following comment from a “Goth” youth leader named Cynthia Handloser on this same post over at Reformation Nation. You can view her MySpace page here. I have copied and pasted the comment in its entirety below:
I really would like to know where you got your facts to post “that” to include all gothic people in the don’t deny self statement. Many gothic people already deny their “self” for truth in which some find God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God leads them to Christ and then the Holy Spirit which leads them to church–> where in our society, they are not welcomed most of the time because of “that” type of false witness feed to the masses about them. So in response, they start their own underground church to fellowship together. They don’t want to hurt the peoples’ feelings at what ever said church and start divisions over lifestyle which isn’t the focus to begin with and looked down in upon in the Bible as favoritism and commanded to not point out specks in others eyes.
Studying a subculture is not always easy and any first movements to outreach to any culture is going to have many obstacles to overcome, exspecially them gasping doctine. I am a youth leader and a new creation. I get labeled gothic myself and that will always be with me, although I am more then this and would never take on a label other them my given name or Christian. I minister to them and others. I reach out for their acceptance in the a non-underground church for those who bear the fruit. Scripture taught me perfect love and in that love, I hope that your ignorace turns to enlightenment and your prudence to hope that many in this subculture break the chains that this world offers and follows Apostle Paul’s example to become a stranger in a strange land clinging not to his Jewish traditions but to Christ, his Savior.
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