A Bible study at Hooters? I will not even comment on this atrocity. Read more about it at the following sites (just to name a few):
Christ Alone Wyoming
Proclaiming the Truth of Christ-Centered Theology
A Bible study at Hooters? I will not even comment on this atrocity. Read more about it at the following sites (just to name a few):
Christ Alone Wyoming 
What’s the atrocity? That Christians are sharing their faith in a place where non-Christians typically hang out? That people have come to faith while these Bible studies have been going on? That the wings taste really good?
Not sure what the atrocity is.
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If you fully understood how holy God is and how His Bride is supposed to be pure, then you’d find no other word to equate with what these guys are doing. As I’ve stated before, if you can’t see the folly in this behavior–if the spirit in you is at peace with this–then all the discussion in the world will not open your eyes.
If the lukewarm church is not ready to bring scantly clad girls into the church as part of the service, then why not bring the church to where the scantly clad girls are? Flee youthful lusts!
I await the day when we have a church meeting at a brothel. Oh, how do we draw the line when black and white have become grey? You may object to a Bible study at a brothel now, but wait a little bit. As you slide further down the slippery slope it will only be a matter of time before you defend communion in a whorehouse. Mark my words.
What was an “atrocity” in church 20 years ago is acceptable now. I can only imagine what another 20 years will bring us. Are you prepared to stand before God and give an account to why you not only winked at and defended the tares sowed into the wheat, but perhaps even helped to sow those tares?
And how did I know that you of all people (who lacks any amount of discernment) would find no problem with holding a Bible study in a place like Hooters? My only question was “what took you so long to comment?” Remember, I gave up debating this issue with you a long time ago, so just hang on and enjoy the ride. :o)
-The Pilgrim
P.S. Now where’s that sinister ColdFire to beckon us off the narrow path?
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Did you really refer to me as the one “who lacks any amount of discernment”? Kind of like Jesus, I suppose.
Later that day, Jesus ate at Levi’s house. There were many tax collectors and other bad people eating there with Jesus and his followers. There were many of these people that followed Jesus. The teachers of the law (they were Pharisees ) saw Jesus eating with these tax collectors and other bad people. They asked Jesus’ followers, “Why does he (Jesus) eat with tax collectors and sinners?” Jesus heard this, and he said to them, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor. It is the sick people that need a doctor. I did not come to invite good people. I came to invite sinners.”
Mark 2:15-17
Not bad company in which to find myself.
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Ahh. Once again, a little bit of poison mixed in with the truth. Are you seriously comparing the Ministry of Jesus and the PURPOSE with which he visited the publicans and sinners, with a bunch of guys having “church” at the local bar?
Notice the buzz words used in one of the articles regarding why they choose to study the Word of God in this place. To reach the “Unchurched” and “Dechurched.” I’m sure they’re reaching them, but the question is with what?
These seeker-friendly, emergent buzzwords are very telling of the substance of their content. Whenever people see the lost as “unchurched,” the watered-down, candy-coated gospel is always sure to follow. Tell me, where in 2,000 years of Christian history are the lost ever referred to as unchurched and dechurched? (I know, I know, that’s another whole topic).
Why are they getting so much attention? There are countless people who witness to these Hooter’s-type girls, strippers, prostitutes, etc. There’s even ministries devoted to sharing the gospel with these people. So why is a bunch of guys holding a “Bible study” at a Hooter’s generating so much attention?
I’m sure you’ve read the articles, yet you continue to come away with the false idea that mixing light with what is dark is acceptable to God.
So tell me, where do you personally draw the line, Nathan? What about the local strip club? Brothel? Why not there? Strippers and hookers are highly unlikely to darken the door of a church, probably even less so than a Hooters waitress. So why not soften the gospel even more and hold a Bible study in one of these places? Remember, in the version of Christianity that you constantly put forward in your comments, wherever you draw the line today, it will have to be moved tomorrow.
Isn’t it all about “reaching the lost?” So if the lost won’t come to church then the theory (and apparently yours too) is to make the church as worldly as possible to show them that “we’re just like you.” Now that you see how much we’re like you, try Jesus!
Although Jesus spent time with the “sick,” one thing that’s often overlooked by those who use this to justify “fellowshipping” with unbelievers and acting like the world, is that Jesus never ever, NOT EVEN ONCE, excused their sinful lifestyles.
Please provide me an example where Jesus went to a tavern, bar, strip joint, brothel, or anywhere equivalent, to teach from the Scriptures.
Oh, what dire consequences using Scripture out of context brings, but you still fail to see. You continue to choose to use Scripture as a proof-text to justify the continued love-affair with the world and the things of the world, including the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh. When does it stop, Nathan? Where do you draw that line?
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There’s so much to comment on in your post, pilgrim, that I don’t even know where to begin. So, I’ll start with the most important subject: Jesus.
Let me start by asking you a question. If Jesus came back today, in the flesh as he did 2000 years ago, where exactly do you think he would be?
If His return was anything like his first visit, he would go and love sinners. Of course, now, as then, Jesus would go into churches and teach and share, but if history repeated himself, the dogmatic “godly” people would kick Him out, and want to get rid of Him for the radical, uncomfortable things He would teach. And so what would He do? A look at Luke 14 gives us a pretty good picture.
As to me: where would I draw the line? You infer that I would go into a Hooters, host a Bible study, and gloss over passages that deal with sin – “excus[ing] their sinful lifestyles”. That’s a pretty hefty assumption, and it’s a hefty assumption to infer that the folks in the article in question do this. For most of my adult life, I’ve worked in theater. I’ve seen some extremely hardened sinner’s hearts softened by the Love of Christ. Why? Because of Christians willing to work and minister in the “sinful” arena of theater – willing to share honestly the whole Gospel – including sin and our need for repentance.
In my mind, the problem with many people in churches is that they DON’T go out of their way to go to the places where the “sinners” are – they roll up their windows and lock their doors, and speed up just a little to get through that part of town. How is Jesus possibly pleased by that?
“Single Focus Atlanta” is going outside of their area of comfort to share the Good News, and I say kudos to them for reaching out to folks who work in a place like Hooters. And, just so you know, if God opened the door for me to share His Good News with folks in a brothel, I’d take it – if I could work up the courage. Actually, I’d probably send my wife in to talk to the girls, and I’d talk to the “Johns”.
And since you love quotes so much, how about these two?
“Some wish to live within the sound of a chapel bell; I wish to run a rescue mission within a yard of hell.” — C.T. Studd
“I have but one candle of life to burn, and I would rather burn it out in a land filled with darkness than in a land flooded with light” — John Keith Falconer
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Nathan,
Regarding if Jesus came today as He did 2,000 years ago, I agree with everything you said 100%. I can think of a few popular preachers who our Lord would call white washed tombs.
My bone of contention is not reaching the lost. It never has been an issue in reaching the lost. It is something every Believer should do. And I myself am very evangelistic minded. Where we separate is your approach to evangelism. Going into Hooters to evangelize is much different than going in to “have a Bible study.” If you can understand that, then you may better understand where I am coming from.
In your comments over the past couple months it is rather apparent that your approach is a pragmatic one. The version of evangelism that you present doesn’t appear to be one that resembles the New Testament Church’s approach. (The problem is most of the churches lack that in America. It’s an epidemic). I base this off the things you always seem to oppose in these posts and the things you always seem to support.
We will continue to disagree on approach. I am not saying I have a better approach, I am just saying that our approach should be biblically based, not man-centered and market-driven. Clowns, gay bibles, Harry Potter and all sorts of worldly means should not be used by the Church to evangelize the lost. If you believe God is in control, then you need to understand that He (not us) will add to the Church daily.
My experience is that the vast majority of churches, evangelists, preachers, etc. that resort to attracting the world by being like the world, rarely ever give a true and accurate gospel message. This produces massive amounts of false converts. If you don’t believe me spend a couple nights street witnessing. You will be utterly amazed at how many people claim to be Christians, yet bare only fruit indicative of the works of the devil.
The “end justifies the means” approach to evangelism is not Biblical, and it’s causing great damage. That is always the result when we try to do things “better” than God.
So again, we will have to agree to disagree.
Sincerely,
The Pilgrim
P.S. Surprise me sometime. Comment once in a while on a post that you actually agree with me on. :o)
“If church history teaches us anything, it teaches us that the most devastating assaults on the faith have always begun as subtle errors arising from inside the body itself. Living in an unstable age, the church cannot afford to be vacillating. We minister to people desperate for answers, and we cannot soft-pedal the truth or extenuate the gospel. If we make friends with the world, we set ourselves at enmity with God. If we trust worldly devices, we automatically relinquish the power of the Holy Spirit.” – John MacArthur
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The one major difference I noticed between this “ministry” and those who witness to strippers, prostitutes, etc. is this: they were done by women. Thus, there was not temptation for the flesh. This Hooters thing is done by men. And don’t try and say, “Well, these men aren’t tempted, etc.” They are men, they are still subject to the same temptations as you and I. I don’t think so many people would have a problem with it if they had women witnessing to these women.
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Hey fourpointer,
I agree with you 100%. You and Pilgrim are pretty much on the money and always on the mark. However, may I inject some food for thought concerning the ministry of worldly establishments? Over the years, I have visited many churches, throughout my area as a guest of friends or relatives, which are truly apostates; with multitudes of problems. Some of the new Third Waive Pentecostal / Charismatic gaggles and sad to say some Independent female influenced Baptist churches have enough lesbians in their ranks that would make “Rosie O’Donnell” happy! One such church in which I visited the (male pastor) was having sexual affairs with other men and the wife too was doing her own thing. Needless to say, the church dissolved and the majority of the members, which didn’t have a clue, have been inoculated from God. How sad….. My point; unless we know the person’s back ground, sending even women to such establishments could be dangerous. It could be like sending a former alcoholic to minister at a bar….
I believe we need reformation revival. One last thing, many of the independent churches (Mom and Pop) don’t have boards of elders or a government to keep the church leadership in check. Simply because they don’t want to answer to any authority, therefore accountability is zilch…… With a lot of the churches having these types of problems, sending their untrained, unrepented and unregenerated to them would be like pouring gasoline on a fire.
Sir, have a blessed week.
Jesus is Lord
Jeff
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pilgrim, of course I understand the difference between going into a place like Hooters to evangelize, and going in to have a Bible study. My thoughts on this:
1) Why do they have to be two separate things? Why can’t this group be having the Bible study in the Hooters for the purpose being a witness? You seem to be claiming some sort of special understanding of the motives of this Bible Study group, and that’s where I think you err. I know it’s not scripture, but in the U.S., we are typically “innocent until proven guilty”, and you’ve already condemned this Atlanta group.
2) My approach doesn’t resemble the New Testament approach? You’ll have to be more exact in explaining where you get that idea. It seems to me that I’ve already demonstrated that Jesus spent almost all of his time with “sinners”, and when he was with the “religious”, it was usually to chastize them for being too legalistic, and not enough loving. (that’s my way of putting it) Now, after Jesus ascended, the apostles had a different way of doing things, which included being scattered to the wind and performing miracles. So, could you clarify just a bit what you mean?
3) I do agree that the vast majority of professing Christians in the U.S. don’t have a clue what it means to be a Christian – but this is the fruit of the pre-emergent pre-“relevant” church. I would hazard a guess that the majority of Christians in the churches you typically criticize have a pretty deep and solid faith. This Atlanta group, for example – I posit that you have to be pretty mature in your faith to do what they are doing. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be willing to put up with the abuse!
As to your post scriptum, I need to let you know this, pilgrim. I really do appreciate your desire to call the church to holiness, but to me, your targets are often misguided. It’s not the people who are trying to be creative in the way they express their faith that need to be criticized – it’s the lukewarm church that is content with business as usual, whose main role in their home fellowship is warming the pew. These people need to be shocked out of their slumber and encouraged to get out and share Christ with people.
“The world is sleeping in the dark
That the church just can’t fight
‘Cause it’s asleep in the light
How can you be so dead
When you’ve been so well fed
Jesus rose from the grave
And you, you can’t even get out of bed!”
“Asleep in the Light” – Keith Green
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I think what you will find is that the management of Hooters will have the bible study group leave if it causes them to lose customers. The waitresses are being paid to work so management will not allow them to talk while customers are waiting for their food and the reason customers are there in the first place, to interact with the girls. They wear their little skimpy outfits for a reason. It creates lust and if we are to be keeping our minds pure, it is hard to do that with pretty girls walking around wearing next to nothing. I wouldn’t put anyone in the position that might cause them to sin. Lust is the same as adultery. I think the bible study group is doing more harm to themselves than good to others. It would be better to wait till the girls change their clothes and get off the clock, then take time to talk to them.
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Dear Nathan (answeringchurchofChrist),
Allow me to state my view on evangelism and hopefully clear up any confusion.
I am not opposed to unique and modern approaches to evangelism provided it meets the following two criteria:
1). The means by which the lost are presented the gospel does not demean, devalue, or deemphasize the message.
This is most often seen when we use potty humor, clowns, bike stunt shows, Elvis impersonators, gambling sermon series’, sex sermon series’ and a host of other “the end justifies the means” pragmatic approaches to attract the “unchurched.” The Gospel almost always gets lost in the hoopla and what you attract them with is what you must keep them with.
2). The pure, complete, and unaltered, Gospel is presented, not the watered-down, candy-coated, shallow, fuzzy, comfortable, cross-less “gospel” that often go hand-in-hand with pragmatic approaches to reaching the lost like the examples cited above and like the ones you always seem to find yourself defending.
Again, our differences boil down to approach.
What I was referring to regarding not resembling the NT Church is your view and approach of evangelism in light of how the early Church viewed and approached evangelism. Their’s was God-centered, the one that you always defend is man-centered. You always support a pragmatic approach to evangelism which is not the biblical approach.
When you come to understand that no one comes to Jesus except that the Father draws them (Jn 6:44), then you’ll understand any approach to “entertain” or “trick” people into hearing a half-truth gospel message is based on man’s idea that we can do it better.
It’s the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to a saving knowledge of Jesus. Example after example in the NT we see it’s the preaching of the Gospel, not puppet shows and circus acts that genuinely changes lives.
I hope this clears up some confusion. I think we’ve gone over this ad nauseam.
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Agreed.
I’m taking off day after tomorrow for my full time work – which might stun you. I’m a missionary in the former USSR! I’m involved in a new church plant and university student outreach in a primarily Muslim culture. This why I am constantly looking at how to enculturate the Message – both here and abroad.
Don’t know when I’ll have good email access again – maybe in the airports on the way. So, I’ll talk with you soon!
Blessings,
Nathan
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Well have a safe trip Nathan, and be careful, but most of all preach the Word!
What you attract them with is what you attract them to.
I have to ask . . . are you planning any Bible studies in Russian Hooters? If you are, keep in mind those working at Denny’s, IHOP, HoJo’s, Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Starbucks, Carvel, See’s, and Jiffy Lube also need to hear the Gospel.
Sincerely,
-The Pilgrim
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You a funny man, pilgrim! 😉
If there was a Russian Hooters, I might just try it, although I doubt they’d be as happy to host a Bible study as are the American versions. Of course, there, scantily clad women can show up at any location, so if you’re trying to avoid it, you just don’t go anywhere.
As to the other places you list, it would please the Americans if we had those particular shops, but we don’t have them. I’ll have to figure out what the local versions are.
Be Blessed,
Nathan
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