The topic of Hell came up in another post (read the comments here). One commenter–a Mormon–has found himself on the side of Universalists, Agnostics, Atheists, Wiccans, Jehovah’s Witness and Carlton Pearson in either down-playing, altering or denying the existence of Hell. Regardless of whether this is just his personal view or the LDS organization’s new PR move, either way, the denial of hell is beginning to gain in popularity.
For clarification, the denial of the doctrine of Hell doesn’t have to be confined to denying the existence of Hell. There are multiple ways of twisting, spinning, and distorting Scripture all while asking, “Hath God really said?” These include questioning the duration, the type of punishment, the degree of punishment, adding the teaching of purgatory to it, denying that most people will find themselves there (usually preceded with “A Loving god would never do that,” or “My god would never do that“), etc.
As the ecumenical movement gains momentum we find more and more beliefs merge in areas where they once found themselves in disagreement. The doctrine of Hell is yet another “politically incorrect” orthodox teaching of Christianity that is being discarded for the more modern, God-light view shared by an ever-increasing number. As people continue to form a personal, conscience-easing god in their own image tailored to suit their own tastes, we will continue to see more and more people denying biblical doctrines such as Hell. It usually starts with “I just can’t believe ______ ” fill in the blank.
Compromising biblical doctrines (like the deity of Christ, the atonement of Christ’s shed blood, the Trinity, the authority of holy Scripture, etc.) are frequently being done now in the name of the new Greatest Commandment: Unity.
Christ Alone Wyoming 
The way I see it, is that if a “Christian” denies the doctrine of hell it would make Christ’s sacrifice on the cross useless. There would heve been no point to His crucifixion, death & ressurection, because we would have had nothing to be save from.
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Let me help to clarify your understanding of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In addition to believing everything that the Bible says about hell, we also believe in the Book of Mormon as another testament of Jesus Christ, which proclaims loudly the reality of hell. Here are some references:
“And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the fountain of filthy water which thy father saw; yea, even the river of which he spake; and the depths thereof are the depths of hell. And the mists of darkness are the temptations of the devil, which blindeth the eyes, and hardeneth the hearts of the children of men, and leadeth them away into broad roads, that they perish and are lost” (1 Nephi 12:16-17)
“And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.” (1 Nephi 14:3)
“And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken” (1 Nephi 15:35)
“O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe” (2 Nephi 1:13)
“And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end” (2 Nephi 9:16).
So you see, in order to claim that we down-play or deny the existence of hell would mean that we don’t believe in our scriptures. Yes, hell is real. It is as real as the words you are reading on this page. We just don’t believe in a God that would send 99% of His children there by no fault of their own. Man must have the ability to choose to accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ before God will condemn them to hell or save them in His kingdom. If they never have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, let alone His name, how can they choose to accept or reject it?
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I have noticed this trend too and this business about there being no hell is no exception. What scares me is that there are people I’ve known for years, who were once solid, Bible believing people and now, their views have changed on so many things all of which are in error. Some of their claims are absolutely ludicrous but to them, now, for some reason, they believe it whole heartedly.
I think the most disturbing this I’ve heard is this believe that God created another world, along with Satan, and sin was born before sin was recorded and then God did away with the earth. This all happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. In between those verses, all of the above have been added. It still baffles me!
Something else I’ve noticed – first, these people MUST be hearing this from someone else because the Bible doesn’t teach it. So, I’ve also noticed that these people defend their “preachers” with a vengeance! So there a lot more going on here in addition: they no longer test the spirits and they lack discernment.
It’s more than just a change in their beliefs – their minds are changing too. Their ability to think and reason have become muddled. This is another topic of which I can go on and on about. 🙂
Blessings,
Carol
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Thank you all for your comments. I added an additional paragraph to the original post for clarification purposes. I hope this helps.
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I don’t see how you can believe in a perfectly just God and believe that He will cast all people to hell who never had the chance whatsoever of hearing His name or His gospel in mortality. Seems like God would be a respecter of persons if that were the case, but He is not.
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I’m curious if you guys believe that Jesus descended into hell before being risen as many churches preach? please explain the theology here, that’s one that I never believed as a christian…
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Are you talking about 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6?
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Maybe that’s a part of it …
I remember seeing this interperted differnt ways
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
I don’t have an argument either way, I was just curious because I remember that some churches teach that Christ went to hell before his resuraction…
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The Word never says that Jesus died to save us from Hell!!! Where did that false doctrine come from. What the Word says is that Jesus died to save us from sin. Or put another way, He died to save us from ourselves.
His death, burial, and ressurection were absolutely essential to save us from sin. Eternal conscious torment is a false doctrine nowhere to be found in the Word of God. The very fact that at the cross Jesus took away the sin of the world, is a very powerful argument against the man-made myth with pagan origens called hell. It blasphemes the very name of our Father whose will is to save everyone and only in that way will He be “all in all” as the Word says.
Consider what took place at the cross.
Rom 5:6 While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man–though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die.
Rom 5:8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Notice that these verses say that while we were weak ungodly sinners who were His enemies, He died for us and saved us from the wrath of God.
The heresy of hell is coming down!!! Take off the blinders, you proclaimers of hell and fear and preach the good news for a change!!!
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I don’t expect to change your mind on this topic Mr. Hicks, but I write the following to those who may be curious about this heresy you have brought forth.
I offer three suggestions to those curious about your denial of Biblical truth:
1). Jumping off Mr. Hicks’ reference to Romans 5:9, grab your Strong’s Concordance and do a word study on “God’s wrath.” I assure you it is not pretty, nor something that you want to experience.
2). Listen to the sermon I recently posted entitled God’s Wrath: Vengeance is Mine, I Will Repay by John Piper. He lays out the doctrines of God’s wrath and Hell so clearly that only Jehovah’s Witnesses will still deny it.
3). Print out and study for yourself the Scripture references on Hell and the Eternality of the Human Soul found here. This is a great reference for your own study on the topic and you can paste it inside the cover of your Bible for whenever you come across a JW or someone like Mr. Hicks.
– The Pilgrim
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I want to add a few points here. It is obvious that Don Hicks does NOT believe in the sovereignty of God otherwise he would never have made some of his earlier comments.
To say that the will of God is to save every person in the world, and then to find the truth of Scripture is that not everyone will believe is to undermine the divine purpose.
If it was God’s will for EVERYBODY with no exception to be saved, then God obviously goofed when a few like Hitler, Mussolini, Hitler, and others went to a Christ-less eternity. But wait a minute, what about those whose sins are just as bad as Hitler (meaning everybody in the world who has ever lived!) – what if they die without believing in Christ??
John 3:36 states “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Don, you stated “Notice that these verses say that while we were weak ungodly sinners who were His enemies, He died for us and saved us from the wrath of God.”
Biblical answer – If the Lord Jesus died to save us from His wrath, then there could never be another person who dies without Christ. To be “fair” God would have to let every person (especially since the cross) to go free! BUT THAT WON’T HAPPEN!!
Ever hear of the law called double jeopardy?? Paul was writing to Roman believers who KNEW what the law meant. When he writes, “THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION TO THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS,” this MUST automatically exclude those who are NOT in Christ Jesus. For those who remain apart and willfully disobedient to the Word of God, there is ONLY DEATH, ONLY JUDGMENT, ONLY DAMNATION!!
Roman law (upon which our system of law is based – as is English law) states that when a person pays the penalty for a crime, the crime cannot be paid for again! Paul KNEW exactly of what he was speaking. He was using references to the laws of double jeopardy and showing how through Christ alone we can be without condemnation and the guilt that comes from when we lived apart from the holiness of God!
The holiness and love of God can ONLY exist when you realize that it is from the WRATH of God that we are saved. Jesus Christ came to be the Sinbearer for ALL who come to Him by grace in faith alone for salvation for there is NO OTHER WAY to heaven. For those who reject, there must be a penalty which is to be paid!
Don, as for your misguided thoughts on the doctrine of hell – once again you are wrong because you are in contradiction to the Word of God. Jesus Christ Himself spoke at least TWICE as much on hell as He did on heaven!
If there was really no hell, no wrath, no judgment, no anger – then Jesus Christ died in vain! His death and sacrifice was to appease the wrath of His Father Who cannot and does not look upon sin!
Jesus Christ, the very ONLY Begotten Son of God, and very God of very God, laid aside His glory for the purpose of bringing honour and glory to Himself alone by redeeming unto Himself a Bride that will be spotless. ALL OTHERS WILL BE DAMNED!
My friend, my recommendation would be to put aside your man-made doctrines that undermine the truth of Scripture and belittle the God of the Bible. Fall on your face before Him and repent before it is eternally too late! HELL IS VERY REAL!
Thankful for Sovereign Grace,
The Desert Pastor
P.S. – What I have shared is VERY MUCH good news!! The gospel is this alone – Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners of whom I am one of the chiefest!
By grace through faith alone, I rest secure in Him knowing that there is no condemnation for me and for all who come as humble sinners to the foot of the Cross and cry out for mercy who delights to the hear the prayer of a repentant sinner!
The Desert Pastor
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Don,
As long as you are in Romans, read the very first few verses. To whom is that latter addressed? “To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints” (Romans 1:7). When one is studying any book of the Bible, it helps to know the audience the writer was addressing. n this case, Paul is writing to saints–those who are saved. This letter was not written to unbelievers. Therefore, when Paul uses the word “we” and “us” he is only referring to those who have been saved by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus Christ. He is not telling the lost thatJesus died for them.
That said, let’s look at some passages that deal with the reality of Hell, shall we?
John 5:28-29–“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Jesus is saying that there will be a day when all of the dead–saved and unsaved–will be called out of their graves to be sent to their final destination. The saved will dwell with God, the lost will be cast into Gehenna.
Matthew 25:32-33, 41, 46–“All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’…Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels’…And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Jesus is saying that there will be many who claimed to belong to Him, but did nothing to validate their faith–they had the faith of demons (see James 2:19). Those who lioved out their faith will enter into the Kingdom of God, and those who didn’t will be sent into everlasting fire.
Revelation 20:11-15–Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The Great White Throne. Anyone standing here did not know Christ as their Lord and Savior, and will be cast into the Lake of Fire–Gehenna.
This is what Jesus saved us from Did He save us from our sins–yes. He saved us from the eternal penalty that our sins made us worthy of.
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Pilgrim, Desert Pastor, fourpointer,
I was right with you guys the first 62 years of my life until something happened to my eyesight. I was blind and did not know it. But one day the blinders came off.
Please consider the following article that I put together.
GRAND ASSERTION
ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.
Mal 3:2b “For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap;”
SUB-ASSERTION #1
MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH
Rom 5:6-10 “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God’s wrath, and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the enemies of Jesus, yet He said, “Father forgive them for they don’t know what they are doing”. I believe the Father was in agreement with this prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day. Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a few verses later in Rom 5:18, “Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.”
SUB-ASSERTION #2
NO “PUNISHMENT”, “DESTRUCTION”, “PERISHING”, “LOSTNESS” IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD’S “PUNISHMENTS” OR “DESTRUCTION” ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE
Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This discipline will not be “eternal”, but it will be “aeonian or eonian”, the English equivalents of the Greek “aionios”. “Aeonian” punishment as referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek “kolasis” which has been used in reference to “pruning” a plant for the purpose of better production. “Kolasis” punishment is the corrective type, whereas, “timoria” punishment is the retributive type. The “aeonian” life in Mt. 25:46 is the life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and therefore everlasting communion with our Father.
Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, “…who will be punished with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,…”, is the kind of destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power”. Jesus was “destroyed” at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of destruction or death, there is no sense of “eternal” associated with them as Jesus rose to life and “the last enemy to be eliminated will be death”.
The “lost” sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did not last forever. The word “lost” is the translation of the Greek “apollumi”, from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish, destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only “lost” until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus said He came to “seek and save the lost”.
Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the “lost” unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” The Greek word that got translated “especially” here is “malista”. Checking its usage in other verses makes it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other items mentioned in the context.
The Hebrew word “olam” has as its Greek equivalents “aion” and “aionios” in the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the end in sight but not necessarily “eternal”, or “everlasting” or “forever”, if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah’s duration in the fish, even though the “traditional” translation has been “forever”. Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to as “forever”, which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime. Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have you noticed some versions use the phrase “forever and ever”. Have you ever given thought to the absurdity of adding the words “and ever” after you have already said forever? What’s more than forever? That’s like saying something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal, everlasting, forever, or the absurd “forever and ever” phrase.
An analysis of the word “hell” is quite revealing. Jesus used the word “geena” or “hades” and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word “hell”, which means “unseen” (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew “sheol” and attach to it a meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas Thayer in his book “The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment” traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as a future potential punishment with no sense of “eternal” punishment inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is God’s corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus’ audience knew exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left untranslated or translated as “unseen” or “the grave” as some versions do, as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a number of versions that don’t use the word “hell” even once, realizing the bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.
SUB-ASSERTION #3
ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER
The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God’s servants: DAVID, ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.
NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will only come to belief after their physical death. At this point some might think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable. Parables must be discerned spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.
Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man’s. God grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his traditions, but God’s word does not speak of it.
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Phi 1:29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,”
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.
“ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME.” — GOD
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE
OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD
DAVID was inspired to write:
Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations
ISAIAH was inspired to write:
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’
Isa 45:24 “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
PAUL was inspired to write:
Phi 2:10-11 “…so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow
— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
Rom 14:11 For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.”
JOHN was inspired to record:
Rev 5:13 “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and confessing as somehow “forced”, is born out of bias for eternal torment. Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase “to the glory of God the Father”. It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus is Lord, that “…no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Cor. 12:3b)
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD!!!
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Gehenna, the dump outside the city – where the cursed refuse which was not fit to remain in the city was sent, never to return – was a place of smoldering, continuous fire (fire which was not quenched) and a place where the maggots (worms) grew to huge proportions, and “never died,” because there was a continuous supply of new refuse, and the worms were constantly and abundantly reproducing. This was a fitting image for Christ to use to describe the lake of fire.
I’ll paraphrase Washer, because if I don’t someone else will, and he’s right on the money on this one: “Hell of of infinite duration because sin is against an infinitely holy God.” His wrath ABIDETH – lasts forever – upon those who reject His Son, the Savior.
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Ministry Addict,
May God bless you in your addiction to his ministry.
You said: “His wrath ABIDETH”
Note that God does not keep His anger forever nor repay us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
Psa 103:9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever.
Psa 103:10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities.
You said Washer said: “Hell of of infinite duration because sin is against an infinitely holy God.”
This is not Biblical. This was a man-made argument to satiate those biased toward eternal torment. You cannot quote scripture to support the argument.
Please consider the following article I composed to show that there is no basis for Gehenna being a place of “eternal” torment.
After Robert Young had spent about half of his lifetime studying Hebrew and Greek, he finished translating the Bible in his “Young’s Literal Translation” (YLT) in 1862. Some 36 years later he released his 3rd and final edition in 1898. Robert had grown up reading the KJV and realized, as many have over the years, that the world of Bible students desperately needed a version with greater clarity and understanding of many words, as the KJV had this bad habit of translating a single Hebrew or Greek word into many different English words. Translators know this is warranted in those cases where you have different shades of meaning, but the KJV seemed out of control in this area and left the student with wrong ideas about certain word meanings. For example, the English verb “destroy” in the KJV is used for 49 different Hebrew words (this can be seen in the Englishman’s Hebrew Concordance, p. 1510, 2nd edition). This is but one example of many.
Concerning the doctrine of hell that was instituted as an article of faith in the 6th century, Robert Young realized as many have that the word “hell” was a terribly poor choice of an English word for “sheol”, “hades”, “gehenna”, or “tartarus” since the word “hell” had picked up some baggage from its basic meaning of “hidden” or “unseen”, as is the proper understanding of this Anglo-Saxon word. In the intertestamental period, some notions out of pagan mythology became associated with the unseen realm of the dead. At some point in the development of English versions, this word for the unseen realm took on a concept such as what Dante’s fantasizing had envisioned in his “inferno”.
Note in the following list of the number of times that the word “hell” appears is quite variable, ranging from 94 to 0. One of a number of those without the word “hell” is Young’s Literal Translation. Young is not alone among versions without the word “hell”. We have many people probably thinking that Jesus actually spoke the English word “hell” during those 8 addresses that Jesus used the words “gehenna “ or “hades”. Here is the list of versions with the number of times that “hell” occurs.
DRB: 94, KJV: 54, MSG: 54, GW: 35, RV: 28, BBE: 25, GNB: 21, LITV: 20, NET: 16, ESV: 14, RSV: 13, NASB: 13, AMP: 13, DARBY: 12 , CLT: 0, ROTH: 0, YLT: 0
When the words “sheol”, “gehenna”, “hades”, and “tartarus” are analyzed by usage, the only one that holds a possible association with the punishment of humans is “gehenna”. Gehenna is a geographical location, the Valley of Hinnom adjacent to Jerusalem. This was their city dump, where even bodies of criminals were dumped. When Jesus metaphorically spoke to the crowds using the word Gehenna, his audience, the Jews, knew exactly what he was referring to. These addresses involving the use of the word Gehenna were parables all if we are to believe Mat 13:34, “All this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable.” We need to remember that a parable is a fictional story with a spiritually discernable message. One is hard-pressed to find “eternal” associated with “Gehenna”. Now, when you do find the words “eternal”, “everlasting”, “for ever”, etc., they are translations of “aion” and “aionios”. A search of the usage of the noun “aion” and its adjective “aionios” reveals that these words are associated with limited duration, so to also translate them as unlimited duration, one must question the validity. These words are clearly associated with “ages” or “eons” and at least one version has chosen to translate them “eon” and “eonian”.
Jesus’ uses of the word “gehenna” was confined to Jewish audiences as indicated in one of His missional statements (“…only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”). Jesus commissioned Saul (Paul) to carry the kingdom message to the Gentiles. One would think, in Jesus’ revealings to Paul, the message would be the same, unless as some believe, the gospel was different to the Jew than if was the Gentile. Also, Paul said, as recorded by Luke in Acts, that he did not fail to declare the whole counsel of God. What then is interesting to see is that the word “hell” or “gehenna” is not in any of Paul’s writings nor in the gospel of John, Hebrews, 1 Peter, 1, 2, 3 John or Jude. Since Jesus commissioned and revealed to Paul, if the doctrine of hell is true, it is incomprehensible that Paul would not mention it many times and very explicitly. Some will argue that we should give more weight to what Jesus personally said. But if you believe that Paul was inspired to speak the message Jesus would have him to speak, then essentially when Paul speaks, Jesus speaks. The most disciplinary-sounded words that Paul wrote are found in 2Th 1:9, “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,…” The words “eternal destruction” are the translation of “olethron aionion”, which could be translated “eonian correction”. This word “olethron” which is translated “destruction” is the same word use in 1Co 5:5, “you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” We see here that “destruction” serves the purpose of preparing the person for life in the presence of God, “that his spirit may be saved…”
Relative to “aionion”, note what Vincent has to say in Vincent’s Word Studies: Additional Note on ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον eternal destruction, 2Th_1:9
Ἁιών transliterated eon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself.
The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting. The adjective αἰώνιος in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. Ἁιώνιος means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Ζωὴ αἰώνιος eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N.T., but not in lxx, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or eon, or continuing during that eon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by αἰώνιος. Κόλασις αἰώνιος, rendered everlasting punishment (Mat_25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an eon other than that in which Christ is speaking.
This doctrine is built on tradition, mistranslations, the institution of the Catholic Church back by the state, perpetuated by the likes of Augustine and other “popular” and influential people, it can get entrenched just like the Roman Catholic Church did and people begin to believe that if the majority believe in something it must be true and history has surely taught us better than placing any trust in humans, preachers, institutions, etc. Jer 17:5 Thus says the LORD: “Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD.
Jer 17:6 He is like a shrub in the desert, and shall not see any good come. He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness, in an uninhabited salt land.
Jer 17:7 “Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose trust is the LORD.
Jer 17:8 He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit.”
Pulling out the key statements relative to trust, we have the following.
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man”
But
“Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD”
Many need to re-think this inherited doctrine which makes God out the hypocrite in that He through Jesus instructed us to “love your enemies”, whereas He, by this doctrine, is not willing to show a love that “never fails” to His enemies. And by the way, these “enemies” of God were declared righteous by the blood of Jesus.
Rom 5:6-10 “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God’s wrath, and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the enemies of Jesus, yet He said, “Father forgive them for they don’t know what they are doing”. I believe the Father was in agreement with this prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day. Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a few verses later in Rom 5:18, “Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.”
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EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD!!!
You are absolutely right. But many of them will do it from the depths of an eternal Hell.
PS–The story of the rich man and Lazarus was no parable. It was an actual story of an actual event.
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Don,
God hates all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5), and His wrath abides on those who don’t believe in Jesus (John 3:36).
As the smoke of the eternal torment of those in hell rises for ever and ever (Rev. 14:11), all of creation will praise God for His holiness, righteousness and justice.
Thanks,
Bill
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Don,
Afraid you are wrong in many points, my friend. Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John all spoke about eternal destruction for those who do not believe.
You said, “Many need to re-think this inherited doctrine which makes God out the hypocrite in that He through Jesus instructed us to “love your enemies”, whereas He, by this doctrine, is not willing to show a love that “never fails” to His enemies. And by the way, these “enemies” of God were declared righteous by the blood of Jesus.”
Correction – God the Father did show His love by allowing God the Son, Jesus Christ, who was very God and very man, to lay aside His glory and come down to a sin-cursed earth where its inhabitants would desire to crucify the Lamb Who sits upon the Throne.
The Lord Jesus Christ made it very clear that there was a caveat though for the matter of salvation – belief! In John 3:36 we see Jesus Christ saying, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
In other words, everybody is NOT going to heaven. Everybody is NOT going to have eternal life in the presence of the Lamb. Those who do not believe will find that the wrath of God abides on that person forever.
There are NO SECOND CHANCES after death which you seem to indicate by your words. That is actually a false doctrine started by the Roman Catholic Church to help people like Pretzel Tetzel sell his indulgences. You can call it limbo, purgatory, or whatever you want. The truth is there is only this life to make the right decision for after this is the judgment.
Paul also made the same truths clear to the Roman and the Ephesians believers. To the Ephesians, he said, “For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves for it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.”
To the Romans, in 8:1 he says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”
Notice that in NOT ONE PLACE does Paul tell these believers there is no condemnation to all in the Roman Empire. He makes it very clear that it is ONLY for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, AND for those who walk according to the Spirit.
The opposite then must still be true – “There IS condemnation to those who are NOT in Christ Jesus, and for those who are walking according to the flesh. If you do not walk or are not walking in the Spirit, you are condemned.”
God is equally a God of wrath as He is a God of love. If there was no wrath, there would have been no love for sending Jesus to the Cross. If God meant for all to be saved regardless of how they live their lives and whether they die in unbelief, then there would have been no need for Jesus Christ to die, and Paul was wrong when he stated that Jesus Christ died to save the Church, His elect, those whom He chose from before the foundation of the world.
Saved from eternal damnation,
The Desert Pastor
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It is Young’s ideas, not Washer’s assertion, that are unBiblical. Many people have the mistaken idea that unregenerate sinners really want to go to Heaven, they just don’t want to repent.
But it goes deeper than that. They want their selfish idea of Heaven without the Treasure of Heaven. Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. For the truly converted, Jesus Christ is our Treasure. Not a room in a mansion, with gold bricks in the corner, and our own personal throne, crown, and platter of culinary delicacies. Heaven is the place where we will get to worship and adore our Treasure, Jesus Christ, and fellowship with Him, and be taught about the glory of God by Him, for all eternity.
Likewise, the lake of fire is not a place where the devil is throwing a party, or a place where he occasionally stabs someone with a pitchfork. It is a place where God rules and reigns and is in absolute control. There He exercises His righteous and just wrath for ever, because He is eternally righteous and just. There is no variableness in God, neither shadow of turning. He changes not.
People who reject the Lamb don’t relish the idea of eternal torment, darkness, and burning, I’m sure, but they are choosing that (I know, “choosing” sounds like the dreaded “free will” – you can call me a vile offender of the lowest rank or some such if you want – it won’t hurt my feelings.) rather than submission, because of their pride and their love of sin.
God made our souls to last forever, so, for those who reject Christ, the punishment, torment, flames, and darkness will last forever.
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Don,
You also have a misconception about the Lord’s use of parables. He did not use the Word Gehenna reveal every truth about hell. He spoke of hell in a way that finite minds could grasp its horrible reality without being overcome. Finite minds cannot fully comprehend God’s eternal glory, nor His eternal wrath.
By reading the true historical and inspired accounts of the life of Jesus in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), you will notice how frequently the Lord taught in parables. “And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?” Matthew 13:10
The word “parable” comes from two ancient words: “para,” meaning “alongside;” and “bole,” meaning “to throw.” Literally, a “parable” is two different topics thrown alongside each other so they can be compared or contrasted for the purpose of greater enlightenment. In the 21st century we are guilty of laziness, and our more common forms of the parable are the simile and the metaphor. We may say, “Kay was as mad as a hornet,” or, “Bob is just a couch potato.” These forms of speech sketch a picture, but they pale in comparison to the richness of Bible parables, which not only sketch the outside of a lesson, but vividly paint it in living words.
Christ’s parables are, in a sense, like the keys to a mansion. Mansions look interesting from the outside, but the keys allow us to go inside, spend time, explore, and closely investigate. Jesus invited those whose spiritual sight and hearing were growing dim and dull, to become interested and excited, and to examine the things they knew about the world while those things are “thrown alongside” the principles of the Kingdom of God.
Have you ever noticed the disparity among church-goers as they listen to the Word of God being preached aloud? Many times you will see one listening with rapt attention, while another, right next to him, is day-dreaming, or, in some cases, sleeping soundly! In some ways, this mirrors the different spiritual responses to the parables of Christ.
Jesus explained it this way: “He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.” (Matthew 13:11-16)
Christ’s parables had the power to hide truth and reveal truth at the same time, depending on the condition of the listeners. Let us make sure today that if the Word of God is becoming hard to understand, or if it seems boring, that we allow the Holy Spirit to arrest the process of spiritual blindness, deafness, and hard-heartedness. Just as the truth of the Gospel aroused your interest in becoming born-again, let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing you (Colossians 3:16), as you grow in spiritual maturity, and grow closer to God.
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Don,
Again you bring up Romans 5 as your “proof” that all will be saved, regardless of whether or not they believe in this lifetime. And again, I have to tell you your interpretation is wrong. This letter (Romans) is addressed to SAINTS–believers in the church at Rome. Paul was not telling the whole world that Jesus died for them and saved them–He is only speaking to those who believed in this lifetime.
Also, the story of the rich man and Lazarus–not a parable. If it was, Luke would have told us. If there’s one thing you find when reading any of Luke’s writings (whether in Acts, or in his gospel account) you will find he was very detailed in his writing. If this was a parable, Luke would have told us. Besides, who was it that spoke the words to Luke? The holy Spirit. Do you think the Holy Spirit forgot to mention this to our beloved physician?
You’re also mistaken in your rendering of the Greek aionios. It means, “Perpetual, without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; without beginning; without end, never to cease, everlasting.” The same adjective that modifies our zoe in Christ is the same adjective used to modify the pur (fire) that was prepared for the devil and his angels, as well as the kolasis (destruction, punishment) that will come upon the wicked.
Don, are you saying that aionios means “everlasting” when referring to our life in Christ, but not when referring to the destruction and punishment of the wicked?
As far as your assertion that ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER. I say, “big deal.” Satan believes in God. James 2:19–“You believe in one God, you do well. Even the demons believe and tremble.” When the wicked bow their knee in Hell, it will not be “forced.” It will be because they realize that Jesus Christ is LORD and they have nothing holding them back from confessing Him as such. But it will be too late for them. For as the writer of Hebrews wrote, “It is appointed for a man once to die, then the judgment.”
We die, we are judged. Period. There is no second chance. If ever there was an invention of man that was added in contradiction to the Scriptures, it is the nonsensical notion that a wicked man will get some “second chance” after he dies. That would indeed make a mockery of the cross of Christ, as the Roman Catholic system did in their wretched invention of “Purgatory,” which is what you are speaking of.
You said, What then is interesting to see is that the word “hell” or “Gehenna” is not in any of Paul’s writings nor in the gospel of John, Hebrews, 1 Peter, 1, 2, 3 John or Jude. That is a weak argument. That just because the word “Hell” doesn’t appear in every single book of the Bible, that we should dismiss it. By that reasoning, we can throw out the virgin birth, the great flood, and even the Ten Commandments–because those specific words and phrases do not appear in the Bible in those forms! (Do a word search on “virgin birth” or “Sermon on the Mount.” See if you can find those specific phrases in the Bible.)
But, does Paul talk about damnation? Oh, yes! Galatians 1:8–“If we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel…let them be anathema” Let them be “damned.” Jude 1:6–“And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.” And even if the word “Hell” isn’t mentioned in those places you say, it IS mentioned in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Revelation. Jesus refers to the everlasting destruction of the wicked with the word “Gehenna” 12 times. Do you not consider those books as important?
In another place, in fact a passage you used (2nd Thess 1:9), Paul talks about Christ returning “in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God.” He does not say “who do not yet know God.” Christ will take vengeance on those who do not know God. those who do not receive Him in this life. at this very moment, He is bending His bow, and making His arrows fiery shafts (Psalm 7).
I have posted a series on the reality of a literal, eternal, fiery Hell at my website, if you wish to learn more.
Hades–Part 1
Hades–Part 2
Great White Throne–Part 1
Great White Throne–Part 2
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Rom 5:18
“Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.”
WARNING: IT WILL BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR GRASPING THE TRUTH OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE JUSTIFICATION OF HUMANKIND IF YOU PLAY MENTAL GYMNASTICS WITH THE SECOND “EVERYONE” IN THE ABOVE QUOTE AND SAY THAT “EVERYONE” CAN ONLY MEAN BELIEVERS FOR YOU WILL THEN HAVE DISCREDITED PAUL AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHO INSPIRED HIM TO WRITE THIS PARALLEL WHICH FORCES THE SECOND “EVERYONE” TO HAVE THE SAME SCOPE AS THE FIRST “EVERYONE”.
NOTE: “Everyone” is the translation of “πάντας”, or transliterated, “pantas” in both locations.
Just to be sure we understand it seems, Paul is inspired to pen the very next sentence,
Rom 5:19, “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”
WARNING: SEE ABOVE WARNING EXCEPT SUBSTITUTE “MANY” FOR “EVERYONE” AS PAUL IS USING A ONE TO MANY PARALLEL, THAT IS, A ONE TO ALL OTHERS PARALLEL.
Everybody and his chimp knows that the word “many” in the first part of this sentence means “all the rest of humanity”, but when some people come to the second “many”, which is also “πολλοί” or “polloi”, you would think they have had a lobotomy as they pass the comma and all of a sudden “many” now means “some” and not “all” as it did in the first part of the verse. I dare say that if a verse does not mess with ones doctrinal biases, it would not cross one’s mind to do such a thing with the Word of God.
How the “one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone” is because all of humanity will come to believe in God as Father and Jesus as Mediator, Savior, and Lord, and then the faith of Jesus will justify all.
Gal 2:16, “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
The above is the from the KJV. Some versions incorrectly use the phrasing “faith in” rather than “faith of”. “Of” is correct because “᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ”, or “Iesou Christou”, is in the genitive case thus it should be “of” and not “in”.
Regarding my statement that “all of humanity will come to believe in God as Father and Jesus as Mediator, Savior, and Lord”, please consider the following.
Rom 14:11, “For it is written, ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God’.”
Relative to the word translated “bow” here, it is the translation of “κάμψῃ” or “kampse” from “kampto” which occurs in the NT the following 4 times: Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph. 3:14; Phi. 2:10. There is no hint that this bowing is “forced” as some choose to argue. Please especially note the language in Phi 2:11, “…and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Forced bowing and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord would not be “to the glory of God the Father” and be reminded that 1Co 12:3b says that no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.”
Finally, think about the following,
Rev 5:13—“And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD!!!
GOD REDEEMS ALL CREATURES EVENTUALLY!!!
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But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. (Titus 3:9-11)
It’s time.
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Don,
I WILL TRY TO MAKE THIS AS CLEAR TO YOU AS I POSSIBLY CAN!! SO, SINCE YOU LIKE TO WRITE IN ALL CAPS, I’LL DO THE SAME FOR YOU SO YOU CAN GRASP THE TRUTH. BECAUSE YOU HAVEN’T SO FAR! FIRST, I LIKE HOW YOU, WHEN YOU ARE SHOWN TO BE WRONG IN YOUR INTERPRETATION, WILL SHIFT GEARS AND SWITCH TO ANOTHER PASSAGE!!!
BECAUSE I HAVE NOTICED THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU DO!! YOU CANNOT GIVE AN ANSWER WHEN I HAVE SHOWN YOU WHERE YOU ARE WRONG, SO YOU MOVE ON TO SOME OTHER “PROOF-TEXT” TO TRY AND PROVE YOUR HERETICAL THINKING IS WRONG. BUT ONCE AGAIN, I WILL SHOW YOU WHY YOU ARE WRONG!
You are obviously using the International Standard Version, which completely blows it on this passage. The phrase “pantas anthropos” is beter translated “all men.” Not to say that this means every single person, but rather all peoples. All nations. The righteousness of God in Christ is extended to all of humanity. It does not say that they will all accept it. That is why Paul uses the word “many” in the next verse. Or didn’t you find that interesting? Why does he switch from “all” to “many?” Here’s why.
Because he is writing to the SAINTS at Rome. Not to the lost, the unbelieving. These words are meant for the SAINTS. (And I don’t mean “saints” in the Roman Catholic sense.) The gist of this passage is this: by Adam’s disobedience, all men were made sinners. But the gift of righteousness in Christ is available to all men. Because by one offense those who are now saved were once sinners, now those who were once sinners are now (and shall be in future generations) counted righteous by that one act of obedience.
I have gone over (and over and over and over again and again and again) what is meant by “every knee bowing and every tongue confessing.” I ain’t going there again. If you are still confused, go back and read what I wrote earlier.
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Pilgrim,
I suggest we ban this Don Hicks guy. After doing some research it appears he isn’t really interested in any kind of dialog. The comments he’s leaving? These are pre-written pieces he just cuts and pastes into the combox. for example:
This comment he posted here, he has also left, verbatim on other websites here and here and here and here and nearly 20 other sites.
This comment and this comment are the result of splitting this one long comment at this site into two pieces.
If Don doesn’t want to have a dialog, but would rather cut and paste his pre-formed pieces and make it seem like he has come up with and original thought, and doesn’t want to answer when he is challenged on what he has cut-and-pasted, then I suggest he be banned.
Four* Pointer
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Art Miller has decided to join the discussion (however, he did it on the wrong blog). Here’s his comment that he left on this same post over at Reformation Nation:
I can understand why many don’t believe in hell or God when the church has been promoting an ever burning hell. It creates a picture of an unjust God. Who realy wants to serve a god like that? I don’t. Why would I trust a god like that? The Bible properly understood does not promote such a doctrine. Look carefully at what Rev. 20:9 says “…And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.” That fire was on the surface of the earth. That fire is the real hell fire. So hot it burns them up forever. They are gone. “…And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “they shall be ashes.” Mal. 4:1 & 3 When properly understood God’s character is preserved as a loving & just God. He is not another Hitler.
By the way the term forever and ever is limited according to the context. It does not always mean for eternity. For instance will Onesimus be Philemons slave for ever? Phil. 15. There is so much more that could be said.
Art, the severity of Hell is in direct proportion to the holiness of God. When one downplays the severity or reality of Hell, one reveals their true view of God. And in the same way that your worship of God will never exceed your view of Him, neither will your understanding of the justification of Hell. – The Pilgrim
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