Interestingly, there are many similarities between Hitler’s beliefs and Hinduism.
| Hitler | Hinduism |
| People of Aryan descent are a more pure race. | Society is divided into castes, and the higher castes are expected to have lighter skin. The term “Aryan” comes from Hinduism. |
| Humanity can be bred to become a master race. | Through yoga and many lifetimes, people may become gods, and eventually reach Nirvana. |
| The symbol of Nazism was the swastika. | The swastika is a symbol that has been used for hundreds of years to represent the Hindu god of creation, Brahma. It is a prevalent symbol in Hindu society. |
Hinduism seems to provide much of the foundation for many religions, including new age thought, Buddhism, and Wicca. Nazism is just one more in a long line of such adaptations.
Clearly the swastika has some satanic significance. While Hindus believe the swastika has a positive meaning, it represents opposition to the one, true God, which is never positive. When the swastika arrived in Germany, all positive pretenses from India were discarded and evil—in its most palpable, horrendous form—was unveiled.
Hitler, who didn’t claim to be a Hindu, nevertheless believed in a combination of evolution and occult concepts stemming from Hinduism. Evolution conveniently provides a seemingly scientific reason to believe in the caste system of Hinduism. Hitler took this belief—that some have evolved more than others—to its ghastly, yet logical, conclusion.
Christ Alone Wyoming 
“While Hindus believe the swastika has a positive meaning, it represents opposition to the one, true God”
Do you have any proof that “it represents opposition to the one, true God”? Hinduism doesn’t believe in one true god and that is a different matter. Please edit it.
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Hello Sam,
The article does not state that Hinduism believes it represents opposition to the one, true God. The author, Bill, was making a statement about what the Hindus believe in regards to the swastika and then made a definitive statement – “it represents opposition to the one, true God.”
As for proof, I would recommend the reading of God’s Holy Word – “You shall not have any other gods before me.” Or, “You shall only worship the LORD God.” Two of “The 10 Commandments” are clearly violated by all who would follow the teachings of Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other man-made religion.
Thanks for stopping by, and we sincerely hope that you will read any of the posts we have here on the truth of Scripture and the only way to heaven which is by grace through faith alone in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son) on the cross of Calvary!
Serving a Living Saviour,
The Desert Pastor
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Sam,
Thanks for your comment.
In the table, I said what the swastika means to Hindus. In the other part, I was giving a Christian opinion on the situation. If anything, I didn’t go far enough in explaining that from a biblical persepective, the swastika represents a demon or Satan.
Are you a Hindu? What are your thoughts on the topic? Why would Hitler make such use of a Hindu symbol?
Thanks,
Bill
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To answer your question, Bill…
No, Hitler was not a Hindu. In fact he was a Christian. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. This is made alarmingly clear in Mein Kampf.
Also, The swastika has been used as a symbol by many cultures and religions around the world for over 3000 years including Christians and even the U.S. Military durring World War 1. It is certainly not limited to Hindus and Nazis.
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Wow, Karl!
I intend no offense, but asserting that Hitler was a Christian is an absolutely ridiculous statement.
Hitler’s words:
“One day we want to be in a position where only complete idiots stand in the pulpit and preach to old women.”
Hitler’s actions:
6 million Jews exterminated (not to mention the millions who died fighting for and against his war).
Nope. It is safe to say that Hitler was not a Christian. To claim he was not only reveals one’s ignorance of what a Christian is, but it also reveals the utter lunacy and extreme one will go in their attempt to tarnish Christianity.
– The Pilgrim
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Greetings,
An interesting article, concerning the swastika, for all.
6 ¶, 15 s, 202 w, 1369 c
The swastika is an old Navajo motif, appearing frequently in Navajo weavings. Since the Navajos stopped using swastikas (or “whirling logs” as they called them) after the symbol was appropriated by the Nazis, the appearance of the symbol dates a Navajo weaving to before 1935, when the Nazis officially adopted the symbol.
The symbol also helps date architecture in the Southwest. Prior to World War II, the swastika was borrowed for decoration of “Pueblo Revival” architecture. Thus, there are a lot of old buildings in the Southwestern United States festooned with swastikas. Extant examples in Downtown Albuquerque include the Kimo Theater (1927) on Central (Historic Route 66) , and the old federal courthouse on Gold Avenue. The courthouse, a Works Project Administration building from the 1930’s, has excellent examples of WPA-era murals, and many swastikas in the Southwestern-style details of its architecture, and carved in the furnishings of the grand court room on the top floor.
Sources:
Aigner, Dennis J.; The Swastika Symbol in Navajo Textiles (DAI Press, 2000).
Pre-WWII Arizona Highway sign with swastika: http://mdo20.tripod.com/az/az64.jpg
Detail of decoration of Kimo Theater, Albuquerque, New Mexico:
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LumpyMeatLoaf,
I saw some of the American Indian examples of the swastika, and I really don’t know the symbolism of their use. It may be that it was harmless and coincedental, or it could stem from the same place as in Hinduism.
You could make the point that some of the charms in Lucky Charms cereal have a pagan meaning, but you could also make the case that it’s no big deal.
None of the conclusions I reached in this post can be proven. I noticed some similarities between Hitler and Hindu teachings, and I wrote a post. I’m certainly not going to defend my conclusions tooth and nail.
Bill
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Hey Bill,
Over the years, I have seen the symbol of the swastika imprinted in sidewalks near an elementary school that was built approximately, 1928. The sidewalks were constructed during the Roosevelt (FDR) years, in fact because not only is the swastika impressed in the sidewalk but under the symbol the letters of WPA (Worker Party America) and 1936 were imprinted .
As far as the article goes again, I thought for historical fact(s) that the article in which I earlier posted was interesting, to say the least. As far as Mr. Roosevelt or the WPA, I am sure they used the swastika with non-religious intent. My intention was to share that the swastika has been used in many places, in many times, and with numerous meanings.
Have a great day
Lumpy
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Please allow to correct my error in my last post; WPA,stood for Works Progress Administration, 1936.
Lumpy
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Thank you all for your comments. I was certain that you would not like my first statement, and I really like Pilgrim’s response. I only hope that you can realize that it is equally rediculous to suppose that Hittler had any roots in Hinduism.
It is easy to make an argument that he was Christian or Hindu or just about anything you want him to be to prove some silly point, but the fact is that his ACTS prove only one thing… that he was a sick, depraved and very evil man.
Bill, I don’t know what you were trying to prove by saying he borrowed from Hinduism. It certainly does nothing for Christianity to say that. And it is quite simply not true in any way…
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Karl,
I said in the post, “Hitler, who didn’t claim to be a Hindu, nevertheless believed in a combination of evolution and occult concepts stemming from Hinduism.”
I don’t know how much clearer I can say it. Hitler wasn’t a Hindu, but he was an occultist. He took the ideas of evolution and the occult to their logical conclusion. While the swastika portion of the post has led to disagreement, no one has disagreed with the other two points in the table, and the similarities between Hinduism and Nazism.
As Americans, we get a watered down version of Hindu and yoga, and even some churches have yoga class, but it is pure evil. You don’t see people drinking cow urine like they do in India. That part doesn’t go in the yoga brochures. It is unbridled idol worship. They deny Jesus, and they are going to hell.
You admit that Hitler was evil. Do you think you’re evil?
Thanks,
Bill
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Bill, the title of your post is, “Was Hitler a Hindu?”…
Do you really think that all “real” Hindus drink cow urine? That is very insulting. There are small tribal Hindu groups that do some pretty strange things (like drink cow urine); no question about that. But you should not try to convey the idea that it is a mainstream practice. It’s like saying that “Real” Christians handle snakes or support the KKK. And we all know that would not be a true statement.
Am I evil?… According to the Christian view we are all evil, is that correct? But in my world view, I would say no.
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hitler was an aryan he dont believe in christianity..
because he hates jews and that jesus was a jews….
how cud a aryan respect a jews..
he was just doing a propaganda to be a christian .. if he won the war he wanted, and got all the plan to destroy the christianity from world
even heimmler cheif of ss who didi the holocaust he always carry bhagvatgita along him .. to get rid of his guilt of killing people.. like anjuna did…
even they wanted to restore ancient religion of germany back wanted to worship god worton again…
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A number of corrections:
Higher castes are supposd to have a more noble role in society , not lighter skin.
Thru yoga people become more perfect, not gods.
Swastika has been in use for millienia, not centuries.
Caste system was a scientific strata for society which is not applicable today.
Swastika means of good fortune. Hitler unfortunately used this to denote a race (mistakenly and for the sake of politics) and used the positive symbol negatively.
The consequence: people cannot use this noble symbol representing a noble culture publicly in a Western country , for it is assumed a negative meaning.
Hitler said the aryans were from atlantis and made the connection (correctly) with the Indic culture from which the Swastika stemmed. He never claimed to be Hindu, and certainly was not pro-Hindu. The concept of race does not exist, even though Hitler claimed it to be. What more, he claimed aryans were a race. They were not. Arya means “noble”. It refers to a people who practised a culture and were noble in character in ancient northern India. This can easily be taken as a race and misinterpreted.
One more thing, there are ancient records of nobles (aryas) and demons (asuras) migrating to places outside south asia. Both are of the same race but of different character. Once again it is character not race. The thing is character was taken as race and used for negative activities by Hitler.
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Jon,
Thanks for your comment.
You said that the swastika means good fortune. By that do you mean it’s simply a symbol of good luck? Does it have any signifigance in the religion of Hinduism, or is it simply a secular symbol of luck?
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi friends and dear bill. Very nice discussions. Look brother if you want to know true color of asian culture and aryn mind read all archeives of http://www.dalitvoice.org arya is definitely name of a race. And in india it is caste. And when hitler is on his evil mission indian upper caste hindus praised him and conducted major public meetings and religous prayers praising his victory. You can search this in internet. Especially indian upper caste aryans were so clever that they never want to reveal truth and divert attention on far truth issues.
Caste is fact of this century and it exists in its full force. Most recent example is recent mass genocide of christians in Orissa is not religous fight but cast war, lower cast tribal hindus were liberating themselves from social slavery in hinduism by which upper cast always wanted to teach a strong lesson to them as well as to their liberators. They attacked tribal new christians and killed thousands. And even today atrocities are common on lower caste people including religous minorities in india. India is most divided country which has kept aryan race which is brahmin race kept no 1 position.
For an Aryan, his race is everything. Why hitler dint care for christian principles is for same reason. An Aryan weather he is a christian, hindu, muslim or sikh , he cares only his race. He can go to any barbaric violence against humanity for sake and monopoly of his race. And hinduism is an organisation of racism to serve Aryans with all pleasure of life. Visit http://www.dalitvoice.org for any of your douts. Thank you.
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Hayath,
Thanks for your comment and the info. That looks like an interesting website. I’ll have to take a look.
Bill
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Hitler was ALSO A VEGITAREAN……………….
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Hitler was also an alter boy,Hitler hated Jews because the Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus.This article is just anti Hindu propaganda by a Christian.There are many photos online showing Pope Pius kissing Hitler and cardinals doing the Nazi salute.Just search google:Pope Hitler.The Sanskrit word Arya does not refer to people of light skin,it means noble in Sanskrit.A person who is a Aryan(Noble) is a person who follow and does Dharma(righteousness).Hitler believed in the Aryan invasion theory,and felt that the symbol of the so called Aryan race was the Swastika.
“The intolerance of narrow monotheism is written in letters of blood across the history of man from the time when first the tribes of Israel burst into the land of Canaan. The worshippers of the one Jealous God are egged on to aggressive wars against people of alien cults. They invoke Divine Sanction for the cruelties inflicted on the conquered. The spirit of old Israel is inherited by Christianity and Islam. He went on to remark: “Wars of Religion which are the outcome of fanaticism that prompts and justifies the extermination of aliens of different creeds are practically unknown in Hindu India.”
The Christian desire for world dominion transformed the simple faith of Jesus into a fiercely proselytizing creed. After the time of Constantine, authorities, clerical and secular, displayed systematic intolerance towards other forms of religious belief, taking shelter under the words ‘He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.”
The above quotes are by Dr. S. Radhakrishnan.
“When the white race broke out of Europe 500 years ago,… inspired by a raging sky-god, the whites were able to pretend that their conquests were in order to bring the One God to everyone, particularly those with older and subtler religions. ………
“From a barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three antihuman religions have evolved –Judaism, Christianity, Islam. These are sky-god religions. They are, literally, patriarchal –God is the omnipotent father– hence the loathing of women for 2,000 years. The sky-god is a jealous god, of course. Those who would reject him must be converted or killed for their own good. Ultimately, totalitarianism is the only sort of politics that can truly serve the sky-god’s purpose. Any movement of a liberal nature endangers his authority and that of his delegates on earth. One God, one King, one Pope, one master in the factory, one father-leader in the family home.”
“I regard monotheism as the greatest disaster ever to befall the human race. I see no good in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam — good people, yes, but any religion based on a single, well, frenzied and virulent god, is not as useful to the human race …” “More people have been killed in the name of Jesus Christ than any other name in the history of the world.” “Christianity is such a silly religion.”
The above quotes are by Gore Vidal.
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Radian,
You copy and pasted several anti-Christian quotes, but you never dealt with the points in the post, other than to disagree that Aryans are expected to have lighter skin tone.
Hitler may have been Catholic at some point in his life, but that doesn’t make him a Christian. Catholicism is a different religion.
Do you believe in justice? How are you going to pay for your sins?
Thanks,
Bill
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Well Bill,I believe in God.God is Justice.In Hinduism good actions,righteousness (Dharma) overcome ones bad actions(Adharma).I posted those quotes to give you a different perspective on your religion.The people of the Abrahamic religions always have an elitist attitude,they feel that they are better than others.No matter what you say,Catholicism is still labeled under Christianity.Catholicism is one of the 9,000+ denominations of Christianity.The Swastika is a holy symbol for Hindus.Archaeologists have discovered many inscriptions of the swastika in ancient Jewish synagogues in Jerusalem.The Ancient Jews even considered the swastika a holy symbol,along with the star of David,but unfortunately the swastika has become an evil symbol by Hitler.The swastika that Hitler used is different from the Hindu swastika.Hitlers swastika is tilted 45 degrees from the Hindu one.
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Radian,
Christianity is defined by the Bible. Catholic doctrine left the Bible in the dust many centuries ago. There are certain doctrines the Bible gives us that it says Christians must believe. Catholics don’t believe in salvation by grace alone by faith alone (along with every other non-Christian religion), and they’re therefore disqualified as being Christians. If you wish to define your religion, you should allow others to define theirs.
Since when have good deeds made up for bad deeds? That doesn’t work in a court of law. If you break the law, the judge must punish you. He has no choice.
God is infinitely just and holy. We’ve broken His law by lying, stealing, looking at someone with lust, etc. Just like any guilty criminal, we must be punished. How are you going to be punished for your bad deeds?
The Bible says that God’s place of punishment is hell. What if the Bible is correct? Are you 100% certain that it is incorrect?
Thanks,
Bill
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Catholicism is still a Christian denomination.You have tried to define my religion(Hinduism) in a negative way filled with many biased opinions. In Hinduism there is Karma.A person who has realized his mistakes will be forgiven.God is the only perfect judge.There are many other planets and spiritual planes one can go to based on his actions(Karma)in Hinduism.The justice system on earth has many loop holes in it.A person who has killed others deserve to be punished under law,but our court system is corrupted,we have attorneys that defends their clients,but I believe that God does ensure that justice is showed upon us.Justice is about ones karma.By surrendering our selves to God we can be freed from all sinful reactions.
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I agree that the justice system has many loopholes, and the men and women running it can be corrupted, fooled or mistaken. I also agree that God will make sure justice is done. He’ll make sure that every lie, every penny ever stolen, every time a child disobeys his parents, etc. will be accounted for.
The first time I asked you what you’re going to do about your sins, you said your good deeds will make up for your bad deeds. This time you say that by surrendering to God we can be freed from all sinful reactions. I’m not really sure what that means, but you need to think long and hard about what you’re going to do about your sins. Good deeds don’t make up for bad deeds. That isn’t justice. It sounds like you agree with me that you have sinned against an infinitely holy and just God. What is the proper punishment for breaking His law? Have you taken your punishment for every sin you’ve ever committed?
Thanks,
Bill
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When I said good actions I meant that by surrendering to God and serving him through good actions your sins will be forgiven.The purpose of Karma is to make us realize our sins.In Hinduism a person who is constantly devoted to God is never led to do sinful actions.Sinful actions is done out of ignorance.It is only up to God to truly judge who is a sinner and who is not.
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Hitler was actually mostly a deist, and at worst, an egomaniac who set himself up as God.
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Radian,
Even if you found a way to never sin again, you must give account for the sins you have already committed. What are you going to do about the sins of your past? They must be paid for.
Thanks,
Bill
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As long as I am devoted to God and practice Dharma (righteousness) I am forgiven for my past sins.I believe in a merciful loving God.Realization is the key.
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Radian,
If your god forgives you in exchange for certain deeds, he is not a just god. He is a corrupt judge, who can be bribed with favors. Justice must be served for every sin you commit.
Since I know the Creator of the universe is just, and your god is not just, we know your god is false, and your religion must be rejected.
What are you going to do about your sins? Bribing the judge with good deeds will only add to your list of sins.
Thanks,
Bill
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Radian, I am afraid that does not line up with God’s view of Himself or of you and I as sinful, totally depraved human beings. Isaiah 64:6 states, “But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.”
Being “devoted” to God is not an entrance requirement to heaven. There are many who are “devoted” and yet will hear the awful words from the Creator God who will judge ALL men, “Depart from me for I NEVER knew you!”
As for God’s view of Himself, this is found in the Holy Bible. Yes, He is a merciful God, but He is also a God of wrath and demands justice and payment as the penalty for our sins. Our sins cannot just be swept under the rug by some self-appointed means of good works.
Realization is NOT the key and in this point you are very much mistaken, my friend. The ONLY key to heaven is REPENTANCE and turning by grace through faith alone in the finished work of Calvary by the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is and was and ever shall be, the eternal God of heaven.
The Desert Pastor
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Well,Desert Pastor that is in your religion,not mine.Your religion seems to be rigid in my view.@ Bill,My religion (Hinduism) is the oldest religion on earth,going back over 9,000 years ,false religions don’t last that long.I never said that God can be bribed,but God is always giving us the opportunity to come back to Him and to to forgive our sins.God does NOT forgives you in exchange for certain deeds,that’s in the Catholic religion,not mine.The Catholic Church has had a history of selling indulgences to people in order to forgive their sins,Church official would tell a man I want to sleep with your wife and your sins will be forgiven,the man will happily give his wife.This shows the corruption of Christianity.The Christians are using God to fulfill their materialistic desires.In Hinduism if one does not realize his sins or God he will suffer,but if one does realize his sins are bad and realize God his sins will be forgiven.If your God wants payment for your sins,then this shows that your God is a false impotent God.
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Radian,
Here’s my definition of justice: the guilty receive the proper punishment, and the innocent are set free. Do you agree with my definition of justice? You said your god is just (in your comment on 12/31), but now you say that in spite of your guilt, you can go unpunished.
There is a problem with your line of thinking. Either (1) your god is not just, and by realizing your sin, you can be forgiven, or (2) he is just, and he’ll require that sins are properly punished. Which is it?
The fact that my God requires payment for sins doesn’t show that He is false and impotent. It shows that He is just.
Justice is a very simple concept, and I pray that you’ll come to an understanding of it. Thank you for the time you’ve taken in this conversation.
Bill
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Bill
In Hinduism if one has sinned,but then realizes that he has done wrong and realized God then ones sins will be forgiven.But if one has sinned and does not realized his wrong actions and does not realize God,then he will be punished through the law of Karma.The goal of Hinduism is to make one realize God so we can go back to Him(not gender wise) and break the cycle of reincarnation.Even Lord Krishna(God) says in the Bhagavad Gita:
Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.-Lord Krishna ,Bhagavad Gita 18:66.
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Radian,
You’re free to believe that, but your describing an unjust god who lets sin go unpunished. Like I said before, the Creator of the universe is just, and therefore you have the wrong god, and your religion must be rejected.
The true God is just, and you will give an account for every one of your sins. Payment must be made for your sin. It cannot be forgiven in exchange for repentance or feeling sorry–that is a truly warped sense of justice.
Thanks,
Bill
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Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment.
Leviticus 5:17
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Well I feel that my God is the one true God and loves all of his creations.I feel that your religion is rigid.
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Radian,
The truth is unaffected by our feelings.
The Creator of the universe is just, and will make sure that every sin is punished (sins like lying, stealing, looking at someone with lust). When we sin, we break God’s law, and just like any guilty criminal we must be punished.
God’s place of punishment is hell. That’s what we all deserve. However, God is also merciful, and He paid for sin on the cross. We’ve been commanded to repent and put our faith in Jesus, and our sins will be forgiven, not because God compromised His justice, but because He satisfied the demand for justice Himself.
Please think about this. Your sins must be punished. You can take the punishment, or Jesus can take the punishment in your place. There is no other option.
I’ll let you have the last word.
Thanks for the conversation.
Bill
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Bill,
In the Christianity,God who is powerful had to send his only son to die for the sins of humans.This means that your God is not powerful.God is more powerful than that,God does not need man to symbolically eat the flesh and drink the blood of his son in order for him to forgive your sins.God is just in Hinduism through the law of Karma,for people who has not realized their mistakes.
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If Hitler did have a connection to Hinduism (I’m not quite informed about this issue so I cannot say), his interpretation of Hinduism was put for evil and is not what was intended by Hinduism. This does not mean Hinduism is evil or “satanic” at all. It is just like how two people can read the bible and come out with two different views. Literature has a way of doing this. Hinduism is not satanic at all, although other religions may make it seem so.
I could say I am Christian but not act anything like one–by my definition I am Christian but by others I am not. Hitler’s use of the swastika symbol was for bad, but the swastika was never intended to be a bad symbol, it is a symbol of good luck. Just like the use of the word Aryan, meaning noble (scholars who wrote the holy books of Vedas), was used to describe people of pure German descent by Hitler. If Hitler did have connections with Hinduism, he took its words and twisted it to fit his means. Anyways, the swastika symbol was modified for Hitler’s use.
Karl is right about this: “It is easy to make an argument that he was Christian or Hindu or just about anything you want him to be to prove some silly point, but the fact is that his ACTS prove only one thing… that he was a sick, depraved and very evil man.”
At least we can all agree on this.
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Stranger,
I would agree that Hitler probably had little knowledge of Hinduism, and I’ve never said or believed he did. However, Hinduism is evil, because it leads people away from the only true God, and into hell.
I’m interested in why you say some people would consider you to be a Christian and why some wouldn’t. Why is that?
Thanks for your comment.
Bill
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i have heard that hitler was an avatar of vishnu and germany were definently in line with hindus
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God does require payment for our sins, that is why our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ came to earth and died on the cross and rose from the dead.We are cleansed and forgiven in Him. We also have restored relationship with our Father through Him, if we accept He has paid the penalty for us. To me I do not know of any greater love than this. True Christians do not think we are better than anyone else, as we are more aware of our sins, and of the terrible price Jesus had to pay for our sins. I could live for a million years and I still would not be capable of earning my salvation, or of doing any deeds that could please my Father. Jesus said ” I am the way the truth and the life, noone comes to the Father but by me.” If it was up to us, there wouldn’t be anyone in heaven. I have listened to a sermon about Hitler. Hindus were involved with him in a secret army. I will try to find and post it. As Christians we are grieved that people want to reject Jesus Christ.
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http://www.gty.org/Resources/ It’s in sermon series titled man of sin part 2 of a series. Excellent to see what hitler was into. He was like his father the antichrist.
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http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/Scripture/53. Titled The coming man of sin part 2 of a series. Excellent sermon to know what hitler was into. John Macarthur is giving a idea of what the antichrist will be like
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“It was Christians, you know, not Pagans(Heathens),who were responsible for the Holocaust. It was Christians, not Pagans, who lynched people here in the South, who burned people at the stake, frequently in the name of this Jesus Christ”-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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“It was Christians, you know, not Pagans(Heathens),who were responsible for the Holocaust. It was Christians, not Pagans, who lynched people here in the South, who burned people at the stake, frequently in the name of this Jesus Christ”-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
The problem with this statement is that not everyone who claims to be Christian is. Only those who have been saved by God’s grace, who’ve repented of sin and been born from above by God are true followers of Jesus Christ. Many, many people profess the name of Christ; sadly, most of those professions are false and superficial.
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Lyn, your response to Radian is correct. Let me add that true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are not responsible for the Holocaust or lynching in South Africa. Those who resorted to such tactics do not have the Spirit of God within them. Many claim the name of Christ or claim to be “Christians” but the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked!
Radian, those who claim the name of Christ and yet live in ways that do not reflect the Spirit of Christ truly are heathen. A “heathen” is anyone who has not by grace alone placed his or her faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ upon Calvary.
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In fact, true believers in Christ who took a stand for truth were killed in the holocaust as well! There are many people who claim to be Christians but it doesn’t make them such!
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well i think what i am going to write may irk some people, but
its my personal idea.
hitler used swastik symbol from hindu books and vedas. its true. for the world he is a tyrant and beast who ravaged the earth.
but by hindu tradition he is the incarnation of god. he followed hindu texts gita, bible, koran etc. he was an occult student
one heavenly hindu book explains the expoit of the moden world of today ” its called the kalki puran” of lord kalki.
hindus believe that the 10th incarnation of lord vishnu is yet to come which is called the devine kalki avatar. he will ride a white stallion with a swastika sword in his arms and moving at great speed he will annihilate millions of barbarians, thieves,rulers of nations who dared to dress themselves as kings . its look like a joke. but its true !!! kalki is nothing but “third antichrist” who is yet to come
according to texts lord kalki will receive martial training under the 6th incarnation of god ” lord parashuram” means an incarnation of god with axe.
according to hindu vedas, lord parashuram is a “brahmin god”(priest form of god ) who is armed with celestial weapons”
hence he the first priest god of this universe who is armed . he moves inside over solar system and he is the devine martial trainer who introduces inter planatery weapons on earth. he is very aggressive and he attacks races of rulers and kings who killed priests and looted them in ancient times. he is immortal (a soul without death) and he has pledged to remove or wipe out evil royal races of earth 23 times!!!
hence adolf hitler is nothing but incarnation of “lord parashuram”. he used swastika which is hindu god vishnu’s disc weapon, a lifting wheel moving at high speed. vishnu’s vechicle is an eagle ( a griffon) . lord vishnu has four arms and he stands on lotus flower.
hence the eagle sign was accepted by hitler. as parashuram uses axe, an axe weapon swastik was used by hitler which he badged near his chest.it means the devine axe moving in all four directions. hitler fought the world war under “axis name”
our earth moves on axis, the planets have their own axis and
the galaxies moves on axis. hence he was waging a war on part of universal axis of god.
as he was a priest, he loved priests. just look into nazi history, hitler never killed priests, he loved them and invited them to his speeches, he made special relationship with church and vatican. he never even killed a priest who opposed him as well, he just exiled them.
but he was very cruel on kings and jewish business class. he mercilessly slaughtered them. he hated the evil royal dynasties of world.
the mysterious fashion in which he launched his blitz crieg war was of “combined circular aggression ” described as “chakravyuha war” in hindu holy books.
he launched attack on france in west, poland towards east, netherlend and england to the north and north west, ussr to the north east, italy launched attack on african peninsula and ethiopia to the south. japen became the outer part of his axis lauching war simeltaniously in asia. it was tactical planning by hitler which proves that he fought war in all four directions and he was a “war martial” only one of his kind.
he developed atom bombs, missiles, helicopters and flying saucers based on hindu celestial weapons and crafts.he proved in this way that he was a celestial man of war tactics.
because of this circular war, england , south africa,australia, souht east asia which were colonial powers removed british troops back to england to fight hitler, hence many african and asian colonies became free in absence of british troops and their freedom movements succeded. hence he indirectly libereated many asian and african nations. every german soldier took oath under bible and the belt which they wore said ” god is with you”this proves that he was not evil but a very cruel form of god to punish evils , because of his shock tactics, jews migrated to israel which was their land promised in bible. he used to sing, dance , act and watch dramas and plays and he was a very good painter and he always loved his mother and wept for her which proves that he was heavenly.
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I don’t understand this statement, “he used to sing, dance , act and watch dramas and plays and he was a very good painter and he always loved his mother and wept for her which proves that he was heavenly.”
How does that prove he was heavenly, and what is heavenly?
I must stick with what the Holy Bible says about ALL mankind, every human being who has ever been born…”as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10-12
“for there is no one who does not sin” – 1 Kings 8:46
“Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.” -Ecclesiastes 7:20
Psalm 51:5 makes it clear, we are all sinners from the moment of conception…Hitler is no exception. We all lie, steal, cheat, hate, covet, have forbidden sexual desires; only the grace of God can save us, only the blood of Christ can cleanse us. Hitler acted out what was in his heart, the wickedness that is in every heart {Matt. 15:19}
Consider this truth from Romans 7:18, “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.”
Do you know what’s truly amazing? What’s truly amazing is that God saves any!
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Hi Bill,
just some thoughts,
first of all, do read this book, found it quite useful pertaining to your initial post
Hitler’s Cross by Erwin W Lutzer
I think Hitler was not necessarily hindu persay but he was definitely demonically empowered.
I also feel we need to respect our fellow brothers and sisters of different religions. Calling Hinduism an evil religion is what leads to wars and centuries of hate. Show love instead.
Do check up on the book, very useful if you are serious about learning more about Hitler and satanism
david
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David,
Sounds like a good book. I’ll try to get to it.
When you say I shouldn’t call Hinduism evil, are you saying that it’s mean to say so, or that it isn’t true?
I think the most loving thing I can do is present the gospel to Hindus, and not hold back the truth.
Thanks for your comment.
Bill
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imagine youre a hindu. Some random Christians start calling your faith an evil religion. How will you react?
will you react by dialogue? ie “tell me more why you think its evil? What do you think is wrong?
or will you react with disgust and defence. “Christianity has killed more people over the years than other religions, look at the Spanish inquisition, look at all the killings committed in the so called name of God”
Most people do the latter, and just feel angry that someone called them evil.
I agree that presenting the Gospel to Hindus is love, but slandering someone at the same time even though its true is still painful for them. It needs to be done gently? would you agree with me?
thanks for your comment and this blog, its a useful tool
david
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Kalki is not the 3rd anti-christ,
he shares the same characteristics as the 2nd coming….
they will both be ‘the beginning & the end…’
If a racist person wearing a cross commits a crime?
Does that mean the cross he is wearing should ALSO be branded with his actions?
Or does one conclude that this person representing the cross had no understanding what so ever in regards to its background & symbolism?
On that note i ask you to see Hitler in the same light….
love,peace & TRUTH
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i notice my lengthy post displaying how the christian realm actually comes from the Vedik realm hasn’t been added, which would display the weakness in the people hosting this site and also help proving my point in regards to the intellect of them also….if not making it crystal clear…
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Kal-k,
I don’t know what happened to your comment. It might have been deleted if there was cussing or if it was rude. Otherwise, maybe it just got lost somewhere. Maybe you could summarize it, because I don’t know what you’re talking about otherwise.
David,
I think Hindus and people of other religions are coddled by Christians too much. I certainly don’t think it’s wrong to call something evil that is evil, if you give adequate reasoning. This post was about Hitler, but I think I gave adequate reasoning about why I would consider Hinduism evil.
If a Hindu is offended by my calling it evil, I hope that God will provide them with a bold Christian with a different personality that can give the gospel to that person. However, the disgruntled Hindu you’re worried about, was not made anymore dead in his sins by me in the meantime.
Thanks,
Bill
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Bill my post had no cussing as i do not have to lower my standards to do such things – besides i believe we label ourselves…
I believe it was removed as it displayed how the bible originates from the EVIL HINDUISM you are talking about…
Maybe the person who removed it was shocked to find way too many similarities between the religion you falsely pretend you are part of –
Jesus the Christos would not tolerate you calling other religions EVIL….
as this is the work of a narrow minded separatist –
especially when Hinduism represents love,peace & TRUTH…
thus making you a self confessed component of hate, war & lies…
Gods realm is booby-trapped so those who insult it only insult themselves…
Hinduism is the reservoir of wisdom & knowledge and the roots of all spiritual thought…
So once again I will say if you choose to insult such a realm then you label yourself as an opposer of wisdom & knowledge – thus making you a (_____) by your actions…
But i do believe the bible does say even (______) are allowed to have their own level of wisdom – but it will never be transcendental and thus never close the heavenly realm of our celestial parents…
And since (______) follow (______) it seems people who attack Hinduism without any proper research on the realm, have formed your own club and will never be in receipt of true wisdom…
love,peace & TRUTH
Kal-k
The 3rd Side of a Coin..
The Beginning & The End..
Every Beginning Has An End..
Every End Has A New Beginning…
* I have left those blanks for you to work out which word fits a person who opposes the realm of knowledge & wisdom…
I will post the detailed post again showing how Christianity comes from Hinduism – but I guarantee that it won’t be shown because this site is backed by racist right wing evangelists.
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Kal-k,
I look forward to your detailed post. Maybe you could answer a few questions in that post. I’m interested in finding out more about your beliefs. What do you think happens when you die? If you’re a good Hindu, then I assume that you think you’re going to be reincarnated. Are you going to be reincarnated as something good or as something bad? Do you think you’ve lived a good life?
Thanks,
Bill
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I am a Hindu (not the cow urine drinking one!). I went to a Christian school and have a profound respect for the religion. So where do I go? In the middle of heaven and earth? I would have no problem going to church, but not if I have to give up Hinduism and that to me it too stringent.
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Hi Sam,
Thanks for your comment.
You said, “So where do I go? In the middle of heaven and earth?”
I assume you’re talking about where you’d go when you die. Since we’ve all broken God’s law by lying, stealing, lusting, not keeping God first in our lives, disobeying our parents, etc., we all deserve to be punished, just like any guilty criminal. God’s place of punishment is hell.
However, Jesus paid for sin with His blood. It was a legal transaction. In response everyone of us should repent (turn away from sin) and place our faith in Jesus. Your past, present and future sins will be forgiven, and you can rest assured that you’ll spend eternity in heaven. Not because of anything you do or don’t do, but because of what Jesus did.
Repentance would include giving up Hinduism. It is false worship of false gods.
In Matthew 10:37-39, Jesus said, “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”
I agree that it is very stringent. Whether it is too stringent for you is what you have to decide.
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi Bill, U seems to be ignorant of Hinduism and seems to be inspired by the other medium to know Hinduism like internet and other, no Hindu drink urine as a part of religion, it is mentioned in on of the verses of Ayurveda(Medication book). And can u tell me where Jesus spent his age from 14 to 31. Not only Jesus everyone on this earth is son of god. God doesn’t love Jesus only he loves everyone as his son equally, u can follow him in any way either being a christian or a Hindu.. doesn’t matter to him, If Hinduism was false, He is so supreme that he would have wiped out Hinduism from the world from the hand of perverted missionaries who have been majorly blamed for teaching wrong things in the world. u cannot claim that ur religion is the only true religion. Hitler was never a Hindu nor inspired by any Hindu teaching. Hinduism says “whole world is family” . Jesus learn his teaching from Hinduism and Buddhism in the northern part of India ” Kashmir” it is well know that he spent his missing days to learn Hindu teachings which spread later as Christianity, even his name Christ is modified name from Sanskrit word Christa ,name of the lord Vishnu. I just want to say don’t follow Christianity just follow what Jesus wanted to say about GOD, Jesus never created Christianity it was created by his follower to follow him but now people just follow Christianity not Jesus.
Thanks
Rajeev
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Rajeev,
Thanks for your comment. I never said Hitler was a Hindu, or that he applied Hindu teachings faithfully. I just noticed some similarities, and observed that maybe there is some link between the two.
I believe (because the Bible teaches it) that there is one God, and He has provided one way for our sins to be forgiven. He didn’t have to provide any way, but He provided one and only one way. It was very kind for Him to even make one way. That way is through Jesus. That is what Jesus taught. I don’t see how you can pick and choose from his teachings, and hold him up as an example when He condemns your religion.
The Bible teaches that we are all born children of the devil, and we can be adopted as God’s children (John 1:12-13), and go to heaven when we die. That is very different from Hinduism.
When you say that I can’t claim my religion is the only true religion, you’re denying my religion, and doing the very thing, you say I can’t do. You deny my religion, but you say that I can’t deny yours.
How do you know that Jesus spent time learning about Hinduism? What is your source for that info?
What do Hindus do about their sins, like lying, stealing, lust, etc.?
I look forward to a nice conversation with you.
Thanks,
Bill
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Bill is the following statement a creation of your own mind?
“Through yoga and many lifetimes, people may become gods, and eventually reach Nirvana.”
Yoga refers to mental and physical discipline and its ultimate goal being moksha (being liberated from the cycle of life and death). Its a way to connect with the source , not becoming the source.
You have also written that “The symbol of Nazism was the swastika.”
The symbol has also been used by Baltics , Celtics , Finnishs , Slavic Native Americans . Are you also suggesting that they too were hindu’s?
For your information , what inspired Hitler to use the swastika as a symbol for the NSDAP was its use by the Thule Society since there were many connections between them and the DAP .
Last but not the least , you mentioned “In Hinduism , Society is divided into castes, and the higher castes are expected to have lighter skin”
Society in Ancient India was divided for a reason. The caste in those days provided identity, security and well being.
Have you ever read about the caste system in Christianity? Google the word “Casta” and ask yourself once again “Was Hitler a Hindu?”
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Mohit,
Do I believe Hitler was a Hindu? No, I don’t. I’ve never said I did, and I’ve repeatedly said that I don’t believe it. What I do believe is that there is a spiritual component to this life, and maybe there is a common root somewhere between Hitler and Hinduism. I have no proof of this, and I’d say it’s impossible to prove or disprove.
If I haven’t represented your beliefs accurately, I’m sorry. However, there are many different varieties, and various occult/new age belief systems stemming from Hinduism, and some of them teach that they can become gods.
The swastika being used by other groups of people could be coincidence, or it could mean they were influenced by the same source as Hitler. Again, it’s impossible to prove or disprove.
I read the Wikipedia article about Casta, and it doesn’t appear to have anything to do with Christianity. The Bible teaches that all Christians are brothers and sisters, and no one is superior.
I’d like to ask you a question: What are you going to do about your sins?
Thanks,
Bill
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Probably you should watch “The Story Of India” by Michael Woods if you want to know more about India/Hinduism. As for my Sins , I will leave it up to the almighty
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Mohit,
If you wait to leave the matter of your sins up to the Almighty, I am afraid that it will be too late for you will stand before Him while He proceeds to condemn you to everlasting punishment for the rejection of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Desert Pastor
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The Bible needs to be defended! This is one of the reasons I love this site. The other reason is because of the well substantiated and knowledgeable articles the bloggers of this site publish, sadly though with exception to this article – hence the, in every essence, fruitless “discussion” following afterwards, lacking every kind of in-depth research or knowledge. On both sides of the discussion. “Googling” or “wikipediaing” does not count as research! Come on people, you can do better.
Apologetics means defeding Christianity and the Bible, not dissing other religions/beliefs. Apologetics is showing why Christianity and the Bible is true, not why the other is bad or wrong! Apologetics is showing that only Christ and subsequently his word leads to eternity with him, not that the other will lead to hell. That logical conclusion follows from showing others that only Christ and subsequently his word leads to eternity with him. We do not need to tell them that, others will deduce that by themselves when they are ready to receive salvation!
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Hi Nicholas,
Thanks for your opinion.
I would definitely disagree about this being a fruitless discussion. I’ve never been able to witness to Hindus except on this post. It would be more fruitful if Hindus would check back and continue the conversation. It turns out that Hindus are almost as difficult to have a conversation with on the internet as Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Rather than addressing the arguments you think I’ve fallen short on, you offer a rebuke. I’m open to rebuke, but I think your rebuke would go much farther with me if you show me how it’s done.
So, I would urge you to pick some specific argument and work on it so I can see your expertise.
Thanks,
Bill
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Bill
While cow drinking was never a defining sacrament of the religion of the HIndu, if that makes you turn away in revulsion and dub Hinduism evil for that, do you know that a Hindu reserves twice that revulsion for a christian who relishes a ram’s testicles. Only he wont call Christianity evil for that.
Coming back to cow urine, I wont be surprised if soon some western pharma firm files a patent for its curative properties just as they did for Neem and others.
And Bill finally, if you just follow Christ’s simple code of conduct and leave the complex theology of Paul alone, you will be a better Christian. Dont bother those who arent. Do unto them what you would have them done unto you —- (remember that very christian phrase). The world will take care of itself Bill including the sinners. All will be saved without your smart theology and slow venom. It will only create hatred and heat. There have been human thinkers and redeemers for as long as man has been sentient. Christ was one in the series. He wasnt the first . He wont be the last.
Amen.
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sudhir,
You’ve given away your ignorance of the Bible in that you imply disparity between Jesus’ and Paul’s teachings. The Bible is the Word of God – ALL of it.
So, we should obey you, and ignore Jesus. He tells us to go and make disciples of all men… to be fishers of men.
Ah, universalism… No, sudhir. The Bible is clear. Most will be lost.
Sin is so grievous that God sent His Son to die in our place, so that we can be saved.
The message Gospel is so simple to understand, but the Bible also says:
“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
Saying Not Found in Scripture: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
With the bizarre twisting of the miniscule amount of Scripture you seem to have gleaned from who-knows-where… How could you possibly know WHAT it means to be a Christian?
No… actually God will do that.
And if you have put your faith in anything or anyone other than Jesus Christ, then YOU, sudhir, will die in your sins and be judged by God.
There is forgiveness of sins, though, and reconciliation with God. You cannot find it in the Bhagavad-Gita… nor through any guru.
Only through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
That is blasphemy, sudhir, and you will answer to God for it… along with every other sin you have ever committed.
Just look at God’s Law – the 10 Commandments. To be as Holy as God, you would have had to have never broken any of His Laws – ever.
No one could ever have lived a completely sinless life – no one except Jesus Christ (fully God, fully Man)… the Perfect, sinless Lamb of God, Who became sin for us, so that we as captives to sin and death were set free.
Yet even now, God holds out His Hand to you, sudhir… the Hand of salvation.
A sinner who was redeemed by Christ,
– Jeff H
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In case this wasn’t mentioned a good beek to read is Hitler’s Cross by Erwin Lutzer. It was an excellent read.
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The original religious terrorism ? And call yourselves the original civilised !
We have heard of mothers threatening their children to behave lest she called the boogie man. It is a sorry spectacle when adults do this to adults in a huge worldwide enterprise. The spectacle of hell that was implied in the whole harangue of Jeff H was only a glipmse.
I will give you a simple riddle. Two people counted the number of storeys of a building standing 10 storeys high. One counted 10. Another counted 20. Why?. Very easy and Very very difficult.
If you can solve the riddle you will know that it is the premise, the foundation, the axiom that defines the theorem. If there are 10 storeys you cannot see, if premises differ fundamentally, please do not drag me to any of your scary original sins, monopoly saviours, patented books, and assorted hells on any of the storeys.
Tell you what. You only succeed in making people scared of Jesus who otherwise revere him as one among others. Truth does not need an army of soldiers like you to be left on Earth to be preserved.
No one will harangue you with any of the wisdom of the Bhagwad Gita till you are ready to receive. And then again it defines a world view, no quick fix solution like believe this or that and you will be saved. You may have heard this but the world view of the Gita and Upanishads is strengthened , without asking, by modern science particulalry Physics and more so as it probes deeper into the nature of the material world. Your world government in exile may have already proclaimed them guilty of blasphemy. But Jeff H, truth like the Sun cannot be legislated out no matter what dollars, decibels and deceit are employed.
And please moderate your language. Enough to scare a child.
I also wish to respond line by line taking facts and figures and in a milder tone. May be later some time.
regards
sudhir
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Hi Sudhir,
Looking past all of your ‘canned’ speeches, such as “the Sun cannot be legislated out no matter what dollars, decibels and deceit are employed”, I see a frightened man.
Sudhir, Christians do not run from Hell to Jesus out of fear.
We run to Jesus in gratitude for His sacrifice on our behalf. We run to Jesus in love, and thereby also escape the punishment we deserve for breaking God’s Laws.
It’s that simple!
As for the directness of the message… let me ask you:
If a blind man were walking towards a cliff, how loudly… how urgently… how directly would you warn him, so that his life would be saved.
Well, sudhir, the Bible says that you are walking in spiritual blindness towards an end far worse than falling off of a cliff.
Friend, how could I possibly sit by and not warn you?
How kind and loving would that be of me?
I am saved by Lord Jesus Christ not because I am afraid of Hell… but because I have repented of my sins (turned from my sins, and turned to Jesus) and put my full faith in Him. I have been saved by His loving kindness. That is what we Christians call GRACE. It is the unmerited loving kindness that God gives us.
I broke God’s Laws… and Jesus paid the price for my lawlessness. That is the ultimate message of love.
Now, the Bible says, I am a new creation… that’s what being ‘born again’ means. God has given me new desires. I no longer am a slave to lawlessness.
Best of all, I am no longer spiritually dead. I now have eternal life.
Thanks be to God!
– Jeff H
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Jeff H
A professional priest of the church can have no time for this.
But perhaps you are not. Surely there is a meeting ground between the great spiritual souls of this world, across millennia. Keeping this in mind I respond to your mail line by line.
My standpoint comes from the worldview of the forest dwelling realised souls of ancient India, not one but hundreds including women, who in their heightened states of mind had “heard” or “seen” truths of this world and beyond …. Just as your takeoff point is that Bible is the word of God.
If we are rational human beings, we would realise that the quest of imposing one’s tribal history and its resultant religion, to the whole world, was a rallying point for what was primarily political aggression and material quest. In medieval times it was more conspicuously so. Today it is a bit subtle, but more virulent. We know this has been seen the most, in the history of West Asia and further West.
Jeff “u’ve given away your ignorance of the Bible in that you imply disparity between Jesus’ and Paul’s teachings. The Bible is the Word of God – ALL of it.”
Many before me have distinguished between “Christianity” of Christ and “Churchianity” including christian thinkers. “Ignorance of the Bible” may be the flavour of the day. Have we seen the last of the Bible ? Or only the Bible of some royal decree. Is Gospel of Philip not also from a devout Christian. I would think ignorance and more important, contempt for the Gnostic strains in Semitic thought, would be ignorance of the Bible as well.
Jeff “So, we should obey you, and ignore Jesus. He tells us to go and make disciples of all men… to be fishers of men.”
No Obey HIM. But before that pray understand what He meant by making disciples of all men. He said this in a certain “historic” socio-cultural context to uplift men according to his teachings. It is erroneous to apply it so literally and across millenia with such socio-cultural aggression that it acquires a political character. This exhortation can be found in several other scriptures. “Follow my example and spread the word”. Shall we call it “War of the Messiahs.”
Sudhir “All will be saved”
Jeff “Ah, universalism… No, sudhir. The Bible is clear. Most will be lost. ”
So you have accounted for and brushed aside the whole idea by using that word ‘Universalism’. Ah “Exclusivism” … I could say to regular Christianity. I have only recently heard of Universalists and the Unitarian. But the idea and related ideas in India are millenia old. Yes Jeff H, the Bible is clear. Our understanding of it is not. Look again. Look deeper into the original sources left by realised souls. Please do not grant so much power to a certain edition of a certain council sanctioned by a certain Emperor beset with certain political pressures. Millenia will not forgive you and your co-believers for the streams of blood that may be shed on such obstinate insistence.
Jeff “Sin is so grievous that God sent His Son to die in our place, so that we can be saved.”
I know the story well. Tell me what the story implies which could fit the worldview formed by scientific thinking at the least. And you stand or fall with it.
Jeff says – The message Gospel is so simple to understand, but the Bible also says:
“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
I dont claim to know the context. But, please understand, sacrifice has been associated with religion in all times and climes. So no one is calling it foolishness. It is foolishness only when one human sacrifice at a time when humans had had a long history and well developed in many parts of the world, is extrapolated to all humanity in one ecclesiastial stroke. ( Mercifully it cannot be extended to all time).
Without intending an insult, I just thought of Lehman Brothers, Barings, Enron … all their customers thought they were being saved while it lasted. The point is that forming a rigid worldview on such dubious certitudes has the germs of perennial conflict, not harmony nor love let alone redemption.
Sudhir – “Do unto them what you would have them done unto you —- (remember that very christian phrase).
Jeff – Saying Not Found in Scripture: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.””
Thankyou for the corection. But does anyone apply it to the pain and social turmoil caused by evangelizing. Families broken, brotherly tribes at loggerheads, societies torn, nations split. Would the evagelisers like this done unto them.
Jeff – “With the bizarre twisting of the miniscule amount of Scripture you seem to have gleaned from who-knows-where… How could you possibly know WHAT it means to be a Christian?”
In my part of the world, less than a miniscule amount of scripture is often enough for spiritual awakening. Unless you are referring to some secret world domination society, I think any Educated citizen of this world knows what it means to be a “Christian” and what it means not. But I can tell you I may know more than you think. And the more I read (with an open mind), the more difficult I find to fit its tribal view with the worldview which strings together everything – the nano, the light years, the mind, the soul , singularity, the supernova, birth, death, morality, purpose of life, consciousness, the ultimate relaity, the GOD head, spiritual awakening … whatever. And against this what do you get … a pastor threatening hellfires just because it is written in his HOLY book. An insult to the human mind I would think. Sorry for the strong words.
Sudhir “The world will take care of itself Bill including the sinners.
Jeff – No… actually God will do that.”
And you speak on HIS behalf because you think You as a Christian are a majority stake holder in His enterprise ! Jeff H, there may be other stakeholders God in his wisdom and discretion has not told you about, and some of whom may have seen HIM in HIS full glory long before Christ. And what He has not told you about is that ALL in this Universe and others, are ONE with HIM. That HE speaks through many scriptures. That scriptures were meant to guide spiritual life and not to create jobs, build organisations and create empires.
Jeff – “And if you have put your faith in anything or anyone other than Jesus Christ, then YOU, sudhir, will die in your sins and be judged by God.”
How does one answer that rationally. You can be excused for this only if you are a holy PRIEST Jeff H !
And even if you are, are you some henchman of some GODLY mafia out to proclaim judgements on behalf of your tribal GOD. Shall I tell you, GOD does not belong to YOU alone nor to your Church that the only currency He recognizes is one printed with Christ’s picture. He was around long before the first word of the Bible was written or any other scripture. Please for sake of sanity if not rationality can you review that statement.
Jeff H seems bound to an organisation which follows Hitler’s advice that to achieve your aims, choose a really BIG LIE. The bigger the LIE and more often it is told and the louder, the more it is likely to succeed.
But YOU shall not succeed JEFF H and your organisation, because it is a lie against GOD himself. JEFF H if you think GOD is so foolish, it is YOU who will have to take a million births in hell, CHRIST or no CHRIST, for spreading this canard against HIM.
Jeff – “There is forgiveness of sins, though, and reconciliation with God.
Which Sins. Adam’s ? A Universal Karma ? We are not born in any conflict with GOD. Actually a child is closest to HIM. The word is realisation not reconciliation. You think you are separated from HIM because of your thoughts, actions, desires. Anyone who approaches the Bhagwad GIta with a receptive mind receives wisdom and spiritual bliss.
Jeff – “You cannot find it in the Bhagavad-Gita… nor through any guru.”
So now you have donned the mantle of a religious lawyer, judge and executioner. Assuming you have read it. It may be of interest to you that no great mind East or West has remained unaffected with the Gita. It is the essence of most Hindu philosophy and religion. Shall we assume they are wallowing in hell.
Gurus … Indian thought and spirituality has been handed down more through realised Gurus than the written word. It cannot have been different in other places. Christ was a great realised soul and a Guru.
Jeff — “Only through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.”
Reminds me of a political party asking for votes.
Jeff – “That is blasphemy, sudhir, and you will answer to God for it… along with every other sin you have ever committed. ”
Blasphemy ?? Not in my statutes. Yours ?? Europe’s? I only understand … “not hurting others religious sentiments”. You recognise this and I recognise Blasphemy.
Answer to whose GOD ? Since you insist on separating GODS I shall insist on answering to my GOD not to yours. Just as your GOD is so jealous mine is so knowledgeable. He KNOWS that Hindus really worship HIM when they take so many names.
Are we carrying out a civilised exchange ? Or is this normal in any ministry. Reminds me of missionaries in 18/19th century India, scaring poor illiterate villagers with the same words. So the tactics havent changed very much.
Sounds like the threat of a mafia don. Can your pursuasion also be described like that?
Jeff – “Yet even now, God holds out His Hand to you, sudhir… the Hand of salvation.”
If GOD must hold out his hand plastered with such arrogance, lies, ignorance of the lives of other great sons of GOD, it can only be the hand of an impostor.
Regards
I do not wish to continue with this exchange at this level of discourse. You may however confirm if you wish, that you are a priest.
– Sudhir
———————————————————————–
Jeff H
[Looking past all of your ‘canned’ speeches, such as “the Sun cannot be legislated out no matter what dollars, decibels and deceit are employed”,…… I see a frightened man.]
So you have once again wrongly assumed you can frighten anyone but children and the mentally barren with your horror story. I can see with equal clarity a paid minister bellowing his catechism of fear as he counts his ‘strike’ rate.
If you thought that was a ‘speech’ or ‘a canned speech’, I take it as a compliment. But I hope you got the message that the SUN cannot be evangelised away from shining on the Truth, by a billion evangelists. Actually not even the SON if HE were to be born today.
[Sudhir, Christians do not run from Hell to Jesus out of fear. We run to Jesus in gratitude for His sacrifice on our behalf. We run to Jesus in love, and thereby also escape the punishment we deserve for breaking God’s Laws.]
The whole argument perplexes me. I honour Jesus. But why don’t you pse mention that the whole peroration delivered as the supreme truths of the Universe, is actually just YOUR intellectual consent to a fine story a fine myth which I appreciate. If it suits your temperament and spiritual quest there is again no dispute. Why do you have to insist that it applies to the whole world when others have their own take to this universe and to what science says, perhaps, is closer to yours. The relation with GOD in the Geeta is that of unconditional love, not one preconditioned by fear.
He is a God fearing Christian. Have’nt you heard this phrase Jeff H ? It is a complimentary way of defining a good Christian. The whole relationship with GOD in your sytem is that of fear, retribution and punishment. And havent you used the last word yourself , punishment? Tell an educated person what is the great mystery that lies behind that fairy tale of original sin and maybe you will have an audience. Assuming that tale as an axiom and building another fairy tale on it, then expecting others to act according to its dictates has been intellectually revolting to all great minds since the dawn of the christian era.
[As for the directness of the message… let me ask you:
If a blind man were walking towards a cliff, how loudly… how urgently… how directly would you warn him, so that his life would be saved.]
Physician, Heal thyself. Have you heard of something called delusions. This is a collective, cultivated, institutionalised delusion that no psychiatrist or drug can heal.
This is not only direct. This is directly intrusive. Against Human Rights. You put your word in there “conscience”, define it, and then go ahead keeping it for the hapless poor man or woman who has no idea what the fuss is all about.
[Well, sudhir, the Bible says that you are walking in spiritual blindness towards an end far worse than falling off of a cliff. Friend, how could I possibly sit by and not warn you? How kind and loving would that be of me ?]
JEFF H , be warned from the strength of great sages and seers who have seen GOD as much as CHRIST did, that the blinds may be on you.
The Geeta says that your scriptural arrogance will lead you straight to hell ( from which you do return of course for another chance). Jeff H, take care of yourself . Long before the first pastor was born there were people like me in millions. The GOD, then presiding over the universe, did not need a clutch of evangelists to keep them away from your cliff of terrors and abyss of abominations. I assume the the same GOD reigns today. If your church has vanquished HIM let the world know.
[I am saved by Lord Jesus Christ not because I am afraid of Hell… but because I have repented of my sins (turned from my sins, and turned to Jesus) and put my full faith in Him. I have been saved by His loving kindness. That is what we Christians call GRACE. It is the unmerited loving kindness that God gives us.I broke God’s Laws… and Jesus paid the price for my lawlessness. That is the ultimate message of love.]
You are saved by Jesus Christ because you BELIEVE it to be so. Let others believe in their own saviours. Allow them to, because if you don’t, it is a sin in the eyes of MY GOD. How about a GOD fight ? (Your whole premise JEFF H, really is as serious or as ridiculous as this question. )
Grace … there must be at least a score words in Sanskrit for this with subtle shades of meaning. Anukampa, Daya, Kripa .. and so on. So you obviously thought GRACE is a monopoly of what you think is a Christian GOD.
[Now, the Bible says, I am a new creation… that’s what being ‘born again’ means. God has given me new desires. I no longer am a slave to lawlessness.Best of all, I am no longer spiritually dead. I now have eternal life.]
I wish you well on finding a spiritual anchor in Christ and positively appreciate it. You may try to appreciate I may also be able to find spiritual sustenance in whatever way I pursue. Dont make my spiritual fodder your business any more than you should make my musical fodder your business. I think this is where this whole argument must settle.
I Have no dispute with Jesus or with his moral teachings. Only with the theology later built in his name, the organised usurpers or their dutiful employees who say one coat must fit all… with the spiritual pirates and vandals who spread to the whole world … with the fear mongers … who sweet talk of love but peddle hatred and terror amongst the poor, the defenceless, the economically vulnerable and the destitute … and all in the hallowed name of GOD which they apportion all to themselves as no other corner of the world had heard of GOD before they coined hte three letter word … based on a tribal myth.
I wish to end by a statement by Sri Ramamkrishna , a great realised soul, for some an avatar, certainly occupying the same level as Christ for Hindus. He is said to have practiced both Christianity and Islam and realised the same Godhead.
He said ” Bow down and kneel where others pray. For where so many have received solace, surely the good Lord must manifest HImself.”
Can any truly spiritual person no matter what faith refute this ? This is the essence of Indian spiritual outlook to other faiths. GOD is not jealous. Only humans ever can.
I do not wish to continue this discourse at the level of a priest preaching the Bible and I refuting the sermons. Any genuine critique at the intellectual or historical level without name calling is however welcome.
Om and Amen.
– sudhir
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Sudhir,
I know that many Hindus include Jesus in figures they look up to. But that really makes zero sense. He was either a nutcase worthy only of our contempt, or He was the only true God. Here are a few things Jesus said:
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.
John 14:6: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Luke 13:5: I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
Matthew 25:41: Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matt 10:28: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
And many more examples could be cited.
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi Bill
You want to know from Rajeev his source of information about Jesus coming to India. I will provide the information but pse can you tell me have you heard this before and from where.
As for what one was doing for his sins, God must have truly discriminated in his scheme of things against those born before Christ. They are waiting for hell with not even a chance. And many were more virtuous than most today. Thanks for giving us a chance.
sudhir.
———————————————————————-
Hi bill,
Thanks for yr post of sept 27.
[I know that many Hindus include Jesus in figures they look up to. But that really makes zero sense. ]
It makes zero sense to YOU. I understand. Please also understand that your quotes make less than zero sense to ME. And pse do not take “the look upto” part too far lest you should get some wrong notions. It is limited to an inherent, instinctive respect for others’ objects of worship including those in Islam.
[He was either a nutcase worthy only of our contempt, or He was the only true God. Here are a few things Jesus said:]
If he REALLy said those things and MEANT them the way they are preached by you, I would prefer his former description. But who will decide ? The Pope. No conflict of interest ?
Geeta is full of slokas that echo the … whoever believeth in Me part … and related proclamations. The Hindus donot take them as a divine licence to evangelise and conquor the world. Please understand Christ correctly and you shall be saved. Believing is not enough.
If you have any constructive suggestions on interfaith understanding, respect and dialogue, and keep an open mind you are welcome to post me. And I am as open a Hindu as you can get. But I do not wish to be preached Bible in hand.
I could quote a million slokas in return , but that leads nowhere as our points of departure are so different. It is important to bring them closer before any mutual sermonising can begin.
regards
-sudhir
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Sudhir,
I appreciate the time you’ve taken to converse, and I would love to learn more about your beliefs. That being said, I’m not an expert on interfaith dialogue by your definition, and I don’t care to be. Biblical interfaith dialogue would be much different than what you would consider wise strategy. In fact, many if not all of the quotes I provided from Jesus are from His interfaith dialogue.
Here’s the bottom line. Jesus is the only true God, the Creator of the universe. My only job in interfaith dialogue is to relay His command to you and do my best to help you understand it. That command is to repent (turn away from all of your sins) and trust in Jesus alone for your salvation.
If you reject that command, you are living in rebellion to the Creator, and you will give account for your sins in hell for eternity. For example if you’ve ever told a lie, you are a liar, and all liars will end up in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).
I realize that that would receive a flunking grade in your school of interfaith dialogue.
———
You said:
If he REALLy said those things and MEANT them the way they are preached by you, I would prefer his former description. But who will decide ? The Pope. No conflict of interest ?
———
No one decides. It’s either true or it’s false. By the way, I’m not Catholic, so the pope has nothing to do with what I believe.
———
You said:
I will provide the information but pse can you tell me have you heard this before and from where.
———
I have heard that theory before, but I don’t know where people get that info. I would appreciate it if you would give me a source for that.
———
You said:
God must have truly discriminated in his scheme of things against those born before Christ. They are waiting for hell with not even a chance.
———
That’s a good question. Those who were believers before Jesus went to Abraham’s Bosom awaiting Christ’s payment. Once Jesus paid for their sins, He took them to heaven.
———
You said:
Please understand Christ correctly and you shall be saved. Believing is not enough.
———
The penalty for breaking God’s law is infinite–eternity in hell. Blood is the only payment God accepts for sin. Jesus is God, and His blood is of infinite value. I don’t know if you know anything about math, but infinity plus anything is still infinity. What deeds do you propose will add to an infinite payment? Furthermore, if you say that your deeds can do something to gain favor, you’re not trusting in Christ alone, and your good deeds are simply sins of pride.
———
You said:
Coming back to cow urine, I wont be surprised if soon some western pharma firm files a patent for its curative properties just as they did for Neem and others.
———
I’d like to learn more about your respect for cow urine. Why do you believe that it may have curative properties?
Feel free to quote slokas to me, as I’d love to hear some of them. What do you think will happen to you when you die?
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi sudhir,
You certainly have driven home the point that Christianity and Hinduism do not overlap (no common ground). With that I whole-heartedly agree with you!
Bill has done an exemplary job in explaining to you Christ’s claims of exclusivity and Deity. You can receive those claims or reject them. They do not however, permit syncretism or pantheism. Jesus does not give you that option.
Now, taking a few of the highlights of you enormous post:
So, it boils down to where you want to put your faith: in fallen man and his ‘experiences’ and ‘feelings’… or in God and His revealed Word. People will fail you; God will not.
Yup. So I’ll stick with God’s Word: the Bible.
Again, the Lord makes clear our mission in the Bible. You are the one who is attempting to obfuscate the clear message from Scripture:
“19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…” (Matthew 28:19)
“2 And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few.(B) Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.” (Luke 10:2)
The Bible is clear. You are right there, sudhir. However, our understanding is also clear because the Bible speaks clearly.
Bill has already stated to you what Jesus said:
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
“I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” (Luke 13:5)
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)
So… It looks like Universalism is OUT!
You are wrong again, sudhir. Jesus did not come to bring peace but a sword!
“34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
“35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.
“37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
“38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. (Matthew 10:34-39)
Sadly, no. Most people in this world have absolutely no idea what it means to be a Christian.
NONE.
Well, now. There is your problem. You are trying to shoehorn God’s revealed Truth into your tiny worldview. Couple that with the filter you employ which stems from your false religion, and I’m not surprised that you are unable to fathom the Bible.
You are right! Christ does not belong to me… I belong to Him!
You are right AGAIN! Jesus Christ was around before He gave us His Word (the Bible).
“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”
“9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
“12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
“14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'”)
16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.” (John 1:1-5, 9-18)
Now that we have seen God (and Who is now again at the Father’s side) we are now called OUT of darkness into the Light, so that we may become heirs to eternal life in God’s Kingdom.
Ouch. That was quite an insult…
I thought (according to you) we were just having an academic discussion. It sounds like the bible hit a nerve in you.
Don’t worry… It’s supposed to do that!
🙂
‘a million births in hell’? Nope.
Jesus Christ has already saved me from Hell. Are you now trying to scare me, sudhir?
I must warn you: I have no fear of Hell!
Thanks to Jesus Christ’s finished Work on the cross at Calvary, I have been delivered from Hell and final death.
Uh… you came onto a Christian blog whose sole purpose is to ‘defend’ and ‘contend’ for the Christian faith… and then you are surprised and upset when we ‘defend’ and ‘contend’ for the Christian faith against a damning false religion such as Hinduism?
Tell me… Why are you surprised?
As you wish.
In Jesus Christ,
– Jeff H
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Jeff H
Just a final word if permissible.
You call Hinduism a false, damning religion. It is as false, damning or even an – ism, as NUCLEAR PHYSICS. Just a web of eternal truths, processes and conduct which produces nuclear energy. Not affected by name calling.
Nice talking to you. regards.
sudhir
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sudhir,
As an engineer, I can understand and see the truth of nuclear physics…
Hinduism?… not so much.
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Jeff H
An engineer is a ready receptacle of the truths of nuclear physics.
It needs an engineer of the spirit, likewise, to receive the Eternal Physics of the Spirit enshrined in the Eastern and primarily the Hindu worldview.
But this worldview (like Physics), does not seek a certificate from anyone, either a doctor or an engineer.
Actually you need not even try to understand it. Geeta says, do not disturb the simple faith of others. This will cut their present moorings and set them adrift. (It will take some time before they find new moorings in what I tell you).
That is why Hinduism has graded levels of spiritual understanding towards the same truth to match spiritual development and understanding. And at one such level stands Christianity itself. ( Maybe even within it there are such levels. I remember reading about Christ saying to his apostles somewhere that to the masses he spoke in parables, but to them he told the esoteric truth or words to that effect, pse correct me.
Hindus were never surprised with the particle – wave duality. Nor with the theory of relativity or with spooky action at a distance which seemed to defy it. It just FITS in and ah so smoothly. You may be aware that many of the leading lights of the quantum revolution were Geeta reading and Geeta quoting professors.
I think we should not actively denigrate any idea or ism only to feel secure about ones own.
Perhaps your aversion to HInduism is understandable, to the extent that your knowledge is selective and sketchy and seen from a preconceived view of the world. If you want to check out I could recommend you “paper on Hinduism by Swami Vivekananda” on Google. I could send you the link too. The Swami visited Chicago in 1895 and took it by storm by the first words he uttered.
But again a steadfast, yes, even jealosus focus of devotional energy on ones chosen deity is advocated even in Hinduism. The only difference is that none of this energy is wasted on demolishing others’ objects and methods of devotion.
Amen, Om
sudhir
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sudhir,
No. Things that are spiritually discerned require the Holy Spirit.
That’s why Jesus Christ is our Rock… See, you are hearing the Truth here in the Bible:
“Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.” (Ephesians 4:14)
No. The Bible is God’s Word… The Bible is God’s revealed Truth to mankind.
Hinduism is a man-made false ‘religion’, created by fallen men, and sends men to Hell.
Jesus was describing the Kingdom of Heaven. There were many present (such as Pharisees – professional religionists) who had such hard hearts that Jesus spoke in parables to conceal the pearls of Truth from them – as a judgment against their hardened hearts, and out of mercy, lest they heap further judgment upon themselves.
No. My aversion to your ‘religion’ is that it is false and anti-biblical.
I cling to the Truth (Jesus Christ), and defend and contend for His Truth. That is what we do here on this blog.
You posted here quite a lot about the false religion of Hinduism. We defended and contended for Christ out of obedience to Him.
If you view the ‘object of your devotion demolished’ (as you say) by the Truth, then so be it.
Syncretism is blasphemous, sudhir.
In Christ,
– Jeff H
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Sudhir,
The entire time you’ve been here has been spent attempting to demolish our objects and methods of devotion. Those who say one thing and do another are called hypocrites.
Did you get the e-mail I sent you?
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi Bill,
yes thanks for the mail. i shall get back to you later.
sudhir
———————————————————————————-
Jeff H
you said …. “”Hinduism is a man-made false ‘religion’, created by fallen men, and sends men to Hell.””
Manmade … No it is the set of truths ‘revealed’ by the Supreme Being to the inner ‘hearing’ and ‘sight’ of seers and sages in a heightened state of consciousness.
Fallen men … Many of these sages were women as well and avatars or sons/daughters of God themselves.
False religion …and True religion ( 0 and 1 ? ) Hinduism does not call any religion false.. but only so many attempts of the human spirit to come closer to its source. So your Church (not necessarily Christ) encodes religion in a binary format. My worldview uses fuzzy logic.
I repeat – I think we should not actively denigrate any idea or ism only to feel secure about ones own.
You said
“If you view the ‘object of your devotion demolished’ (as you say) by the Truth, then so be it.”
I grant you that fine debating point. 🙂
I should have used the words “attempt to “.
If wishing away was enough to demolish, extremists would need no weapons. I know for certain that I have no need to demolish any other faith to hold on to mine.
And who was Vivekananda. A great soul who understood the west deeply and India even more deeply. About whom Prof Hardy, a GOD fearing christian of Harvard Univ had said that he was more learned than all the professors of Harvard put together. And in whose introduction to the parliament of Religions in 1895 it was written by the same professor that the Sun never needed an introduction. About whom a Russian academician had written- “When I read Vivekananda as if an electric current runs up my spine”.
Please do not start by expecting the article strewn with devils. Most devils are always in ones own mind.
To my “Om, Amen” You said
“Syncretism is blasphemous, sudhir.”
Honestly, does it disturb you that the sounds are so similar ? If it does, some scientists should have a terrible time accepting that the ratio of ‘sine’ or the so called ‘pythagorus’ theorem or ‘Arabic’ numerals actually originated in India.
Will you statute these away as well.
No Jeff H I dont write all this just to counterpoint every point you make. My reverence for Christ remains intact. It is just to TRY show the limits of dogma and creed. Where the quest is genuine, we need to keep an open mind, one foot firmly planted, and the other foot … ?
If science kept both feet firmly planted they would not have gone far. Quest of the spirit has been viewed as a science in my land. Call it false if you will. You or any traveller on the path of the spirit or physical science can never IGNORE it. NEVER. Its original name is Perennial Philosophy. “Sanatana Dharma.”
regards
sudhir
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Hi Bill,
I just chanced upon your site and was horrified to see that an Ayurvedic (medical) use of cow urine was one of the many nice things being said in the attempt to demolish the Hindu’s religion.
I feel your church needs to prove someone else false to feel secure in its own Truth. So visitors like me provide you with the punching bags. Or else you are welcome to continue shadow boxing.
And was I demolishing anything. Just trying to do two things. One suggesting that if all spirtual warriors focus on their own objects and methods of devotion the world will have lesser strife and sin. Two, trying to reason that the most ancient of spiritual traditions in this world might have something you might yet recognize in your own system. Syncretism no. Intersection, yes.
Here is for starters a paper on Hinduism by Vivekananda. Tagore told Romain Rolland if he wanted to know India he should read Vivekananda.
Thanks for yr mail. I shall respond to that separately.
so this should be our last exchange on this blog. Or you may have the last word.
regards
sudhir
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sudhir,
The Devil cannot create anything new… He always tries to imitate God.
What you are claiming is ‘inspired’ is actually one of Satan’s oldest lies.
God’s Truth in Scripture is INFINITELY above the ‘gita’.
What Satan has given you is a mish-mash of ‘science’-so-called and some bad philosophy, to ‘elevate’ man and to ‘lower’ God… thereby denying His revealed Word: the Bible.
The term ‘men’ is generic in this context… o.k. so you have both men and women who were fallen and deceived.
So does the Devil.
God is crystal clear.
It is obvious you have been duped.
Very post-modern:
‘There is no ultimate truth’…
‘No one is wrong’…
‘What works for you may not work for me’…
etc.
Jesus gives us the Rock of His Truth and we stand on it. All other ground is sinking sand.
Denigration implies a malicious intent. Not true. My intent is to warn you away from the dangerous sand you are standing on, and to beckon you to the Truth of Christ.
Then why won’t you believe Him?
He tells us that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life… and that no man comes to the Father but through Him…
I repeat, why won’t you believe Him?
Jesus gives us the Bible… His Word.
They are inseparable.
If you revere Him, youMUST heed and obey His Words… If you don’t, then you are sullying His Name, not revering Him.
There you show us again that your ‘religion’ is a false, post-modern, truth-denying abomination.
Very ‘New Age’…
God is not co-mingled with His science. He is outside of (above) and not constrained by His creation.
No. It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment.
How will you fare without Jesus on Judgment Day?
Poorly, for sure.
In Christ,
– Jeff H
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Hi Jeff H,
I have no doubt that Jesus is a bedrock for you. Good for you. If you hold on more firmly to it by thinking it is far above the Gita – so much the better. I have no dispute.
Once again the trouble lies in that we speak from very different worldviews – apple and orange.
Some day the twain shall meet I trust.
But I truly appreciate your impermeable rock face in this whole discourse. The Path of Devotion (Surrender, Bhakti) advocates the same thing in my tradition as well. Only there are other paths as well.
Jeff H you shall have the last word.
regards.
sudhir
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No. God will.
It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment.
How will you fare without Jesus on Judgment Day?
Poorly, for sure.
In Christ,
– Jeff H
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Thank you for this excellent ‘thought provoking’ article.
God bless
Gesh
– Ex-Hindu
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http://www.carylmatrisciana.com/shop/product.php?productid=16248
This is a good book about a woman’s journey out of Hinduism and the New Age.
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hello Paul Gesh,
Your description as ex-Hindu caught my eye.
Would you like to share something about your journey.
regards
sudhir
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Hi to all contributors,
Just read through all the posts once again and was tempted to write this. I truly respect the zeal and energy on both the sides – Christian and Hindu. If we cannot understand just now why the two cannot be the same, it may help for now to know why they seem so irreconciliably different.
Why the argument leads nowhere in my view is because one talks orange and another talks apple.
First the orange worldview
The Rishi’s disciple Svetketu says master tell me who I am and what is this world. Rishi asks Svetketu to fetch an orange seed. Then asks him to peel it and divide it. Then to continue dividing it till he could divide no longer. The Rishi then says, what do you see ? Master, Nothing. — That is Truth. That is the Soul (of everything). That thou art, Svetketu. ( Tat Satyam. Sa Atma. Tat Tvam Asi Svetketo – Upanishads).
This “orange” worldview was realised independently by hundreds of forest dwelling seers independently. It does not leave anything inside or outside of time and space and in any universe. The world view of science is only a small subset of it. Like other dynamics in any Universe, Human actions play themselves out according to a self regulating web called the cycle of Karma. The Abstract Ultimate Reality ( GOD without form) plays no role in it. The Godhead (or the GOD of form) in the devotional path does interfere with His Kripa, Anukampa or Grace. Largely the cycle of Karma or acquired tendencies works itself out with births and rebirths like spinning and bursting galaxies and supernovas. Lustful eyes, robbery, violence will come back on you as rain after sunshine following very physical principles. But there is a way out of this cycle . The way in the first leg is to follow certain moral and social commandments so as not to acquire bad Karmas. Because good Karmas also result in rebirth, they are also shed by approaching all action without focus on reward. Further progress towards the indwelling Truth, is through Bhakti or Devotion and unconditional love for the supreme Godhead in a FORM of the devotee’s CHOICE. Those who are drawn to see their maker in this life itself or are otherwise too ardent, also pursue rigorous disiplines of Knowledge Yoga and Mind Yoga. This is an attempt to encase a galaxy in between the forefinger and thumb. And there are a billion galaxies in this Universe of the mind and soul, left behind by the Rishis. Today’s science is merely scratching at the surface of this “orange”.
Now for the apple worldview.
I wont repeat the story of the apple. But the apple gave knowledge, among other things, of right and wrong. GOD in heaven was wrathful. He banished the couple for the Original Sin. The Sin was visited upon all humanity. But GOd was also merciful so He sent his SON to atone for the SIN by dying on the CROSS at a point in history. So goes the DOCTRINE as RATIFIED by a vote by powerful bishops in a politico- religious council of the Roman Empire. You cannot escape payment of the Original Sin. Your intellectual consent to this doctrine is all that is necessary to pay for your past, present and FUTURE sins including your original SIN. The only other option is eternal fires of hell, a very physical place.
Is apple better or worse than orange. We dont now and dont care. Is there a meeting point ? Perhaps yes. Was the knowledge given through the orange and the apple the same ? If so it is both the point of violent divergence and cyclonic convergence.
(As an aside, I feel non Christians should reply to any recurring barbs like “what about your sins?” as per their own world view and not fall into the trap of the “apple” worldview).
regards to all.
sudhir
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Doesn’t matter. The question is: Is it TRUE? That’s the only question that matters, because that will determine how one responds.
If one has eternal consequences then you MUST, by definition, care. Ignorance, in this case, is not bliss.
Do they sound like there is any kind of intersection — in ANY context? Answer: Absolutely not
Drivel; this is just some double-speak.
As I have said: You can choose to ignore God’s Truth all you want. Perhaps your conscience is even seared, but if the God of the Bible is Who He claims to be, then all of your detached philosophical musings won’t help you one bit.
Try telling an earthly judge that his jail has no dominion over you. The end is the same.
It is still not too late for you, sudhir… This is the day of salvation.
In Christian love,
– Jeff
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Personally, I find Sudhir’s writing to be very illustrative and valuable in learning just how badly Satan can blind the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor. 4:4). The millions of Hindus live the majority of their day-to-day lives in accordance to the laws of reason and logic, yet when faced with spiritual/religious ideas are willing to completely abandon all logic.
Sudhir believes there is a possibility that two completely opposite statements can both be true. This amounts to a rejection of the basic laws of logic–laws that children understand and live by. Whether he actually believes what he says or not, I don’t know, but he obviously doesn’t live that belief out in the rest of his life. Even forming an intelligible sentence relies on the use of the laws of logic. Hinduism is full of internal contradictions, yet Sudhir not only accepts them, but takes the time to go around proclaiming them.
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Amen Bill !
It reminds me of 2nd Peter:
“For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (2 Peter 3:5-7)
…emphasis on: “willingly ignorant”
They know, but the suppress the Truth, because of the coming Judgment.
– Jeff H
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Jeff
“Drivel; this is just some double-speak.”
Drivel?….. It is perhaps my turn to ask if it hit a raw nerve.
And doublespeak … I am merely musing on facts as they appear.
Tell me Jeff can I ask you a few questions with all respect.
1. What is the knowledge (of the apple) that was sought to be hidden by God from man and why.
2. Who gave the devil his power. Is the devil’s domain entirely external to God.
3. Was God powerless in seeing his kingdom split across the middle or could He have willed it such, for some reason.
4. If a ransom was to be paid by man could a sacrificial lamb from an all-man and no-God, not have sufficed. Why was it that a part of God sacrificed himself back to God.
“It is still not too late for you, sudhir… This is the day of salvation. In Christian love. Jeff H”
If you mean it may not be too late for me to understand the answers to the 4 questions above I shall look forward to your posts.
As for ‘Christian’ love, I am glad you qualify the word ‘love’, for ‘love’ in any context should be unconditional, unqualified and beyond dogma.
This is an invocation in Sanskrit for peace on the three worlds. Om shantih shantih shantih. Not asking anything.
sudhir
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Hi Bill,
Personally, I find Sudhir’s writing to be very illustrative and valuable in learning just how badly Satan can blind the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor. 4:4).
Thankyou for the compliment. I am somehow reminded of a quote from the biography of Gen Colin Powell – My American Journey – ” What willl happen to all the priests when the devil has been saved” – the context was different though – the need for powerful nations always to have an enemy to grow.
“The millions of Hindus live the majority of their day-to-day lives in accordance to the laws of reason and logic, yet when faced with spiritual/religious ideas are willing to completely abandon all logic.”
I can cite immediately at least three laws of reason and logic which form the bedrock of the Hindu’s spiritual/religious ideas.
(A) Creation’s infinity = 1 (Logic and reason stops only at Unity or the Ultimate Reality).
(B) If Yahweh = God and God = Ishwar then Yahweh = Ishwar. If x represents God in the equation x =1 , x can be replaced by a million alphabets from all the world’s scripts and still represent the same God.
(C) Every action (Karma) has an equal and opposite reaction.
For those who do not follow this logic, a Hindu will reason – if so many devout Christians have found solace , the good Lord must manifest Himself in their spiritual system. Do you think that is logic ?
“Sudhir believes there is a possibility that two completely opposite statements can both be true. This amounts to a rejection of the basic laws of logic–laws that children understand and live by.”
I am sure you will be able to quote copiously from the Bible on how the way of God is not the way of the world. While mathematical reason of quantum mechanics might still apply here, and certainly some of the innocence of children, but certainly not their reason and logic. Light is both a particle and a wave. The particle is both here and there at the same time. Information appears to travel faster than speed of light. Wont this all sound illogical and opposite. But on these statements and facts a new scientific worldview is emerging that comes the closest so far to spirituality what if if it is derided as New Age.
“Whether he actually believes what he says or not, I don’t know, but he obviously doesn’t live that belief out in the rest of his life.”
If I did nt believe I woudnt spend time here. I do not understand what you mean by “he obviously does not live that belief out in the rest of his life”. Why do you think so ?
“Hinduism is full of internal contradictions”
Would you pse like to cite a few for my reflection.
“Sudhir not only accepts them, but takes the time to go around proclaiming them”
I do not know what contradictions you are referring to unless you place your finger on it. I did not proclaim any contradictions as I am aware of none. I pointed to the misrepresentations.
Sudhir
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Sudhir,
If you would like to converse with me, please respond to the e-mail I sent several months ago. If you’ve lost it, I’d be happy to contact you again.
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi Sudhir,
Sorry for the late response. Anyway, here is a brief description of my spiritual journey:
I was a practicing Hindu who believed in reincarnation, observed rituals, worshiped idols, etc. But yet I had no genuine inner peace. My parents, relatives and friends keep telling me that Hinduism teaches love; non-violence (Ahimsa) and tolerance even though some Hindus are very intolerant towards their own people (the so-called lower caste Hindus). Other Hindus excuse this kind of behavior by saying that Hinduism does not condone casteism but only wayward Hindus practice it which I later found to be false because Hindu scriptures (Vedas, Manusmriti, etc ) clearly teaches caste. Furthermore, the practice of devotees going into trance and piercing themselves with spikes also added to my disillusionment. I always felt uncomfortable with this practice even though it is quite common among the Hindus in Malaysia. Anyway, I became a Christian through reading a Chick Gospel comic. In that booklet, I was touched by the message that Jesus died “to save sinners” so that “whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. I just knelt down on my knees and prayed a simple prayer admitting that I am sinner and believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose again on the third day and invited Him to be my Lord & Savior. And I knew in my spirit from that moment onwards that I am a child of God. I pray you too, my dear friend, will come to know Jesus as your personal Lord & Saviour.
God bless
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Sudhir,
Certainly, sudhir… Sorry it took me so long to get back to your questions.
In Genesis 3:9, 15-17 we read,
“And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ‘You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'”
God created everything in a perfect state, as we read in Genesis 1:31a,
“And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.”
The eating of the fruit from ‘tree of the knowledge of good and evil’ was forbidden by God, because there was no evil in His creation. God is God — not man — and God is also a God of order. The rebellion by man to God’s decree was an attempt by man to become equal to God… essentially, to become his own god.
In Genesis 3:4-5 we read,
“But the serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'”
The rebellion had consequences, as God had admonished Adam… “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The KNOWLEDGE of evil — lawlessness, defiance — existed purely in God’s knowledge province until man’s rebellion. Man desired to usurp God’s Authority.
God alone is sovereign… not man, not the angels, not Satan.
The Bible refers to Satan with descriptive titles that indicate his role in the current time…
“the ruler of this world”:
“Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.” (John 12:31)
“I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me” (John 14:30)
“concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.” (John 16:11)
“the god of this world”:
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” (2 Corinthians 4:4)
… and so on.
But, Satan and his demons are given limited power and authority, but are completely subject to Jesus Christ’s Authority…
“And behold, they cried out, ‘What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?’ Now a herd of many pigs was feeding at some distance from them. And the demons begged him, saying, ‘If you cast us out, send us away into the herd …'” (Matthew 8:29-32)
… and Satan’s final fate in the Hands of the Sovereign Himself – The Lord God:
“And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” (Revelation 12:9)
The fall of man, as described earlier, was allowed by God, such that man was free to both OBEY or to DISOBEY God.
This was allowed by God so that His righteousness, judgment, mercy, grace, and loving-kindness could be demonstrated…
ALL FOR HIS GLORY!
Everything happens by the Will of God… either His active Will, His passive Will, or by His permissive Will.
A man alone could not have sufficed to pay for man’s transgressions against Holy God. Jesus serves as the Propitiation for our transgressions against God, and as our Mediator in this restored relationship:
In Galatians 3:19-25 we read,
“What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”
In 1 Timothy 2:5-6 we read,
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men — the testimony given in its proper time.”
In Hebrews 8:6 we read,
“But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.”
In Hebrews 9:15 we read,
“For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
Our inheritance is described in Hebrews 12:22-24,
“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”
As fully man (yet without sin), Jesus Christ lived out the perfect fulfillment of the Law.
But… ONLY GOD CAN BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD.
So, we serve a Living God, Who has ransomed us from the Wrath we have earned, by dying in our stead… thus restoring the relationship rent by our sin (our rebellion), and (as God) granting us Eternal Life.
I pray the this helps, sudhir.
In Chris Jesus,
– Jeff H
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Hi Paul G,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am happy that you have found an anchor in Christ. But would be just a bit disappointed if that should necessarily mean cutting your roots asunder. To be a Hindu also means to belong to a civilisation. Which is probably not always the case elsewhere.
I think what is significant is that your intuition came to rest in Christ. Not that in your personal experience of Hinduism you could not find anything that could engage with. Surely you could allow the possibility that, it does not necessarily negate the core of this spiritual tradition in the world.
On the caste system I had commented in my first response which somehow does not show up. But I think with your free spirit and enquiring mind, you will surely get to understand it for what it is – a social practice subject to time and not core spirituality. The society and the state is tearing it apart.
On trances – Hinduism recognises several paths to the same goal. Path of Loving Devotion to a chosen deity (the way Christianity is viewed in Hinduism), path of mind control, path of discrimination. and a combination.
Every Hindu would be happy if another Hindu finds solace in Christ. Like we all feel happy for a couple who has found true love dont we. But if that should mean one more bitter critic of the millenia old legacy, one less vote in the community, one member less in the family, one ex-son, it would surely be a sad thing.
I wish you well again Paul, in your new spiritual journey.
sudhir
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Hi sudhir,
I wish you had commented on my response to your questions.
There is a fatal error in advising that all roads lead to God. Jesus is clear that no one can come to the Father but through Him.
No alternative paths, no wiggle room.
It is no wonder that post moderns love hinduism… “ANYTHING GOES!”
Hardly the precision of Deity.
As for going by one’s feelings of what is right:
“There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” (Proverbs 16:25)
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Hello Jeff,
Thank you once again for your very detailed treatment of my questions which I find very very evocative. I wanted to give myself time to these very interesting issues. But events overtook me.
Tell me if there was no evil in God’s kingdom which is why he didnt want the fruit eaten, then what was it that made man rebel in his pristine state in the lap of God. What about the evil already represented by Satan.
You write that it was the knowledge of evil – defiance, lawlessness – lay in God’s knowledge province. Till man’s rebellion seeking to usurp God’s authority.
It suggests to me somehow, a very exalted position is thereby given to evil. It seems to play a very vital role in God’s scheme of things. In which the not yet fallen man seems powerless.
Jeff I actually have lots to discuss which I propose to do in instalments. But I have often wondered could the whole story of genesis, sin, fall and redemption — not be an allegory pointing to some inner higher spiritual truths beyond theological interpretations.
cheers
sudhir
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Jeff
Let me add that I am sorry for taking so long to respond.
sudhir
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sudhir,
Good points all. The bible indicates that Satan fell sometime before man, but the specific chronology is not given (therefore it is not necessary for us to know). We have hints at how Satan fell (due to his pride) in the Books of Isaiah (chapter 14) and Ezekiel (chapter 28). Here God begins by rebuking two kings, but then transitions into addressing the power behind each king, Satan.
While it is true that we were in a state of perfection, having perfect communion with God, in the Garden, we were also given free will… WITH AN ADMONITION.
As I said before, if we could not have said ‘no’ to God, we could not have said ‘yes’ to Him (it would have little meaning). In our desire to be like God, though, we said ‘no’ to Him, and now suffer the temporal consequences (physical death) as Christians… and (for NON-Christians) suffer the eternal consequences (what the Bible calls “the second death”, which is consignment to Hell for an eternity, as a perfectly Holy God pours out His Wrath on those who have broken His Laws, but have no desire for His Son’s Sacrifice.
A friend of mine died of cancer yesterday. Would not cancer and the knowledge of it and of death itself not be the MOST exalted (to use your word) position?
If perfection is indeed the pinnacle state, are not death and decay and evil itself (and the knowledge of them) fallen states?
In fact, that is exactly what the Bible states.
It does, but perhaps not for the reason you may think. When my son was young, my desire for him was to NOT stick a fork in a wall outlet and get shocked. I could (and did) warn him about the dangers of electricity and tell him of the consequences… and even tell him to trust me because I possessed more knowledge than he did.
However, if despite my admonishments he desired to possess first-hand knowledge, he could have defied my commandment and, through exercising his free will, suffered the ensuing consequences.
Note that this really is a desperately poor analogy, and the deeds, consequences and required remedy in my illustration PALES in comparison to what we did in our lawless rebellion against a Holy God caused to us (pain, death, separation from Him) and our relationship with Him could only be restored by the death of Jesus Christ Himself. The transgression was of such magnitude, the gall of man to try to usurp God’s Authority, that restoring that relationship required God to live out the Law that we (in our fallen state could not), and to then die, thus paying the penalty in our stead.
No.
First of all, Adam was a real person, not an allegory.
In Luke 3:23–38, we read,
“3 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.”
Allegories don’t have genealogies.
Period.
As for the “being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph” in verse, that is referring to the fact that Christ at His incarnation was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not Joseph. Remember: Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
God is not a mystic, hiding Himself from His people. Just the opposite: God’s Word describes His progressive revelation about Himself… from Genesis to Revelation.
-> How everything was made by Him.
-> Where we came from.
-> Our Fall (rebellion).
-> Then God’s revelation about Himself to a world that no longer knew Him…
-> Calling out a people for His Name’s sake (Abraham, the first Jew).
-> Through the Jews, a nation, Israel.
-> People could observe God’s blessings and curses on Israel based on her adherence (or disobedience) to God’s Laws.
-> She was warned, rebuked, and admonished by a series of prophets, sent by God.
-> Finally, God reveals His crowning achievement in the New Covenant: Grace.
Jesus Christ was the propitiation for our lawlessness, thus reconciling us to God, for those who repent (turn from) our lawlessness, and turn to God, trusting in Him for His sacrificial Provision.
No allegories these!
At any rate, you no doubt have a comprehensive understanding of the Gospel. I know I’ve posted it a few times myself, as have others here.
Now I must be direct with you sudhir.
While God’s redemption and eternal life blessings to be savored and enjoyed, how sad would it be if you merely treated them as some intellectual notions to be sifted, prodded and probed, but in the end you never responded to Christ’s call to repentance and faith, and you died in your sins?
In Christ alone,
– Jeff H
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sudhir,
This video may help you better understand why Christianity is by definition unique and its claims exclusive.
It’s called “Could all religions offer a piece of the same truth and collectively form the whole truth?”
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7515
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Hi Jeff,
I continue to read with interst your answers to my questions. On the second question you wrote –
“The Bible refers to Satan with descriptive titles that indicate his role in the current time…“the ruler of this world”: ” God of the world” ”
So if Satan is god of the world … it is not clear what might be the relationship of God with the world.
Then again “But, Satan and his demons are given limited power and authority, but are completely subject to Jesus Christ’s Authority…”
If one has to dig spiritual ore from mines of very earthly sounding events and relationships, the question must be asked what errand of God is fulfilled in granting that power to the devil.
And for that matter in casting him out of heaven and creating a huge rift in His kingdom. The event in time and space that led to the fall of the angel DEVil (incidentally DEV in sanskrit means exalted heavenly being, and the root is the same ‘Div’, because of common source not coincidentally) surely came from a seed of evil present in paradise either with or without God’s will.
If without, was God less than omnipotent. If with, dont the events of temptation, sin, fall and redemption seem scripted from alpha to omega and not just from the Crucifixion. These questions I think would come naturally if we derive absolutes from axioms rooted in events and entities in space and time.
On the third question you wrote
“The fall of man, as described earlier, was allowed by God, such that man was free to both OBEY or to DISOBEY God.”
He was free in an exalted situation none other than the lap of God. It is then not clear why in paradise was he not free of the pointless curiosity or free of the poverty of wisdom and discretion. If fallen man is saved merely by mentally consenting to Christ as saviour, Man in Grace was fully bathed in God’s luminiscence, he should never have fallen.
“This was allowed by God so that His righteousness, judgment, mercy, grace, and loving-kindness could be demonstrated…”
…. but God needed to demonsrate ANYTHING to ANYBODY …… and by a human sacrifice ?
(a practice many a colonial Captain called many a race savage for). Isnt here an implicit acknowledgement of some spiritual value to such sacrifices in other traditions as well such as Tantra.
“ALL FOR HIS GLORY!
Everything happens by the Will of God… either His active Will, His passive Will, or by His permissive Will.”
That is the point. Why was that Willed. and in this manner.
One could say but in religion you dont ask only believe. Sure.
If only those who still resist can understand they could more readily relate and accept.
Sometime back I was watching a video of the 3rd movement of Beethoven’s 9th. While the whole piece is sublime, for me one of the two leitmotifs played on the violins, can transport anyone … and the words of Virgil, ring clear in the mind … beyond yon starry skies surely there dwells a loving Father. (or close)
There are also ragas in Indian classical music eg Raga Kedar, which is symbolised as a hermit meditating at midnight or as the sound of the Ganga falling on Shiva’s matted hair. They bring you similarly an echo of that higher level of being.
The two traditions have different approaches to music but they reach the same place. How does one dispute that.
We need to ask the listener.
best wishes
sudhir
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Jeff,
Thanks for the video link. The similes are strong. Arsenic in food. I was impressed by the strong conviction of the speaker which is his strongest argument.
I would be interested in gaining a better understanding. Will see the remaining videos at leisure. Thankyou.
The speaker mentions pantheism. I have not understood why this is such a bugbear with the christian outlook. Pantheism only means that everything in this Universe is linked in an intimate web which ultimately is linked to the Ultimate, the One. Isnt the deep ecology movement saying the same thing.
I wonder what happened to my post of yesterday in response to your answer to my third question.
The poet I referred to in the post ( if you see it) you will know is not Virgil but Schiller. But it really doesnt matter to our discussion. But if it matters it perhaps matters the same way that names of Gods. Best wishes. Sudhir
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Hi sudhir,
I am sorry for not being able to get to answering your comments until probably this weekend. I am burying a friend today. He died of cancer Wednesday.
While it is a short season of mourning for me on my part, my friend’s trust in Christ alone means that I know that I will see him again.
That is yet another gift from our Lord Jesus Christ: Those who did not die in their sins will meet again, in Heaven and on the New Earth, to fellowship and to enjoy Eternity with the Lord.
What an awesome and kind God we serve!!
Blessings in Christ,
– Jeff H
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your post of Mar 10. I am intrigued that we are getting to agree on many things.
One. That Man and God (the Ultimate Changeless Reality) seem different (Death, Decay against Eternity, Changelessness).
Two. They actually belong together. ( The Life in Garden of Eden, Non Duality.)
Three. Something brought the divide (Maya, Sin).
Four. There is way to restore the state and the vision.
I think its a great deal to agree with for starters. Frankly I never really saw it quite this way before our discussions began.
What remains is the details of how to restore the relationship.
In my opinion this is where the allegorical aspect could be worth investigating. Geneaologies certainly have a historical base. But consider this. There were Kings in India considered ‘Suryavanshi’ whose geneaology went all the way upto the Sun and for others all the way upto the Moon or even to Brahma the creative aspect of God.
I was curious. Did Adam have any idea what kind of knowledge was hidden in the apple. And what kind of transgression he might be committing. Was he not duped by someone.
Secondly if Christ died for ALL and not just the Christinas, then He died for the whole Race in that moment. Period. For those born before him and for those to be born. In and around Golgotha and the two poles and equator and in between and also those who may tomorow escape to Mars. Why this ASSENT for the rest. Why ANY PREREQUISITE from the rest, who didnt know, all the more because, the sin of Adam fell upon them uniformly for being human. So why not the redemption not be uniform also. A given without asking. If the story of Sin is not allegorical this becomes a very serious question.
And why the number TWO has such special significance for a GOD who represents infinity and Infinite compassion and boundless GRACE. If He can forgive once by sending HIMSELF down. Why not a SECOND time for those who miss the bus for no fault of theirs or even in good faith believing in some other FALSE path. And when this second time or second coming going to come, will it be the end of time and thereby Space.
I must admit that I am getting better insights into the Christian belief over the last few months. But it also makes me feel all the more that there is certainly a meeting ground.
May be you will like to hear what some great Americans had to say about Hinduism. Here is a video URL.
Tell me Jeff, what you think about these men who while honouring their own traditions, also found something appealing in the tradition of a far-off land.
best wishes
sudhir
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Hi Bill,
I hope you received my email. I look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks
sudhir
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Hi Jeff,
I quote from my previous mail. I am really curious about this one. “The sin of Adam fell upon all uniformly just for being human. So why not the redemption not befall uniformly as well. A given without asking.” Why should one first acknowledge and ‘credit’ ?
So we started with Whether Hitler was Hindu or not. He was certainly inspired by the Indian worldview.
If he were not consumed by his hatred for the Jews and were not heir to the holocaust, who knows how his name would be employed today.
To me a more relevant question is whether he rode the thin line between being the Devil and a Dev (Angel in sanskrit) and tipped over the former, and not whether he was a Hindu.
good wishes
sudhir
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sudhir,
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.
Actually, because of Adam’s sinful nature, which we all inherit, we are predisposed to rebellion against God and have enmity against Him.
It is our fallen state to pursue evil constantly. In Jeremiah 17:9, we read,
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
and
in Genesis 6:5,
“The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
and
in Genesis 8:21b,
“…for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth…”
However, we read in Romans 5:1-11,
“1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God.
3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
So, we have Death in Adam, Life in Christ, as we read in Romans 5:12-21,
“12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespasse led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousnessf leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
As for Hitler being a Hindu, you said:
Actually, as you’ve read all men are lost in sin and rebellion. The question… the ONLY question that matters… is whether they have been made new in Christ, as we read in 1 John 1-6,
“1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”
We still sin, but we hate the sin and gladly repent and lay them at the foot of the cross, as we read in 1 John 1:5-10,
“5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
Earlier you wrote:
Be careful at any attempt at syncretism, sudhir. Remember, Christ’s claims are EXCLUSIVE, not inclusive. Think of the video I referred you to earlier!
Jesus Christ has done that.
While the Bible (written by the Holy Spirit) employs a number of techniques to convey the messages of Scripture, the Bible contains NO ALLEGORIES. Besides, the genealogies serve to exclude the possibility of erroneously assuming any of these individuals was fictional.
Here is a good article:
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/k-lee7/www/iccf/docs/blitdevice.htm
Literary devices in the Bible
I. Introduction
The Bible contains many types of figurative language, whether in poetry or prose, gospel or epistle. Why does God use such literary devices to communicate His word to us? Well, these devices are a part of language. God created language, and gave us the ability to use language creatively for communication and pleasure. So naturally He would reveal Himself to us using the language ability and creativity that He endowed us with. And like other great works of literature, the Bible contains many types of figurative language. Sometimes the meaning is very clear, but sometimes difficulties arise in understanding the precise meaning of certain passages, due to the differences in time and culture since the writing of the Bible, and because we aren’t used to some the types of literature and literary devices in the Bible. And beyond these general reasons for use of literary devices, there are particular reasons for literary devices. When we encounter them in a passage, it is sometimes helpful to consider the specific reason that the writer (the human writer and the Holy Spirit inspiring the writing) chose to use a particular means of expression, in order to understand the passage more deeply. Namely:
Reasons for figurative language:
* presents descriptive truth, rather than propositional truth
* more concrete (not just abstract ant theoretical)
* efficient and compact presentation of ideas
* emotional and more engaging
* easier to remember
Take, for example, Psalm 91:4 describes God protecting us under His wings, in the same way that a hen would protect her chicks under her wings. Obviously this hen image doesn’t mean God is a big bird. Rather, it communicates important truths about God. It does so descriptively, rather than in in prose, as straight propositional truth. It presents an image that is real to us, rather than an abstract set of theological concepts. It teaches about God’s love, compassion, comfort, protection, etc. to us. It does so in a way that is more concrete, easier to remember, and more compact that a paragraph long prose exposition would be on the same theme. And it engages us not only spiritually, but emotionally and intellecutally as well. So it’s no surprise that the Bible contains much beautiful language that is not only aesthetically pleasing, but communicates to our entire being—spiritual, intellectual, and emotional.
II. Literary devices (figures of speech)
Below are the different types of literary devices used in Scripture:
1. simile
A comparison of two items using a connective such as like, as, etc.; i.e., X is like Y.
James. 1.23-24: “Anyone who listens to the words but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror, and after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.”
Prov. 10.26: “Like vinegar to the teeth, and smoke to the eyes, so are the lazy to their employers.”
2. metaphor
A direct comparison of two items, or X=Y.
James 3.6: “The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body.”
Mt. 7.7-8: “…knock and the door will be opened to you…and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.”
Ps. 17.8: “Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings…”
Prov. 15.19: “The way of the lazy is overgrown with thorns, but the path of the upright is a level highway.”
3. metonomy
In this type of metaphor, one item or concept is used to signify another that is closely related or associated with it; a, metaphorical or spiritual association between two items, such that one is used interchangeably to mean the other. For example, in communion, wine and blood are used interchangeably for one another. Hence, sometimes a literal item serves as a metaphor for an abstract item.
Jn 6.53-54: “…I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life…”
Hosea 1.2: “…the land commits great whoredom by forsaking the Lord.” (land = people in the land)
Rev. 1.18: “…I have the keys of death and Hell.” (keys symbolize authority)
4. synecdoche
Similar to metonomy; a part is used to symbolize the whole to which it belongs; e.g., in English: “three heads of cattle” means three whole cattle.
Acts 27.37: The original Greek uses “276 souls” for 276 men.
5. merism
A listing of opposite parts stand for a whole. E.g., “day…night” in the Psalms mean ‘all the time’.
Psalm 91.5: You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day.
6. symbolism
Rev. 8.1-5: Incense is used as a symbol of prayer.
Rev. 13: The Beast symbolizes the Roman emperor and government.
7. idiom
Mt 23.24: “You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”
Rev. 7.1: “After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth…”
( = an idiom based on language of appearance)
8. personification
Something inanimate (or divine) is given human form.
Prov. 9.1-6: Wisdom is personified as a woman calling out to those in need.
9. anthropomorphism
This type of personification involves ascribing human characteristics (physical form, human-like emotion, etc.) to God, in order to make Him more understandable to us.
Gen. 6.6: “The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.”
10. apostrophe
In this indirect type of personification, the speaker addresses an inanimate object, him/herself, or others who cannot respond to the statement or question. Sometimes a psalmist addresses his soul (“Don’t be downcast, O my soul!”) or commands mountains and rivers to praise God.
11. allusion
An indirect reference to something else. The referent and meaning are understood from the cultural or personal context or knowledge.
Rev.12.1: “A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve starts on her head.” (This refers back to Joseph’s dreams of the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis 37.
12. type
A literary prefiguring: one person or item serves as a metaphorical prefigure or type of another that is to come later. That is, the first is a theological precursor and symbol for the latter in some particular respect. For example, Isaac in almost being sacrificed serves as a prefiguring and foreshadowing of Christ, Elijah prefigures John the Baptist, and the golden snake of Numbers 21 serves as a type of the cross of Christ (Jn 3.14).
13. word play
Biblical writers and speakers, especially prophetic and poetic writers, make plays on word meanings in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek languages.
Mt 16.18: “And I tell you that you are Peter [Greek: Petros], and upon this rock [Greek: petra] I will build my church…” (‘Peter’ means a small rock, stone, or pebble; petra means a large, unmoveable, impenetrable rock.)
Micah 1.11: “Those who live in Zaanan will not come out…” (The town name Zaanan in Hebrew means ‘come out’; this is pronounced as a judgment against the town.)
14. hyperbole
Literary exaggeration for emphasis or rhetorical effect.
Lk 14.26: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life— he cannot be my disciple.” (Our love for God must be so strong, that our love to others would seem like hate in comparison.)
Mk 9.43: “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and go to hell…”
15. paradox
A statement that seems illogical or contradictory on the surface, but actually conveys truth.
John 3.3: “…no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
Mt. 16.25: “For whoever wants to save is life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.”
16. alliteration
Prophetic and poetic writers, such as Micah, Psalms, etc., use alliteration for narrative effect – use of the same initial consonants in a line. This is a technical device found in the original languages, which technical commentaries will point out.
17. assonance
Poetic writers sometimes repeat word-internal sounds; this occurs in the original language, and is pointed out in technical commentaries.
18. numerology
Occasionally numbers are used in symbolic ways in Scripture, especially in prophesy and apocalypse. These are particular symbols, not magical keys to interpreting everything, so be careful. Numerology is limited to a few common theologically significant numerals, like 3 (=trinity), 7 (=divine perfection), 12 (=God’s people), and 40 (=divine testing).
19. onomastics
Occasionally names have meanings in the original language which relate to their actual character (sometimes called charactonyms); for example, Isaac (“Chuckles”), Ichabod (=”glory has departed”).
sudhir, I will try to address some of the other items you mentioned in the near future.
In Christ,
– Jeff
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@joe
Hitler was ALSO A VEGITAREAN……………….
Joe,
Looking at the findings of Bill I think that the similarities mentioned are very strong:
swastika = hindu symbol
arya = ancient name for nothern india
übermensch = division into castes
vegetarian = hindus are supposed to be strict vegetarians
Hitler was using the hindu philosophy to create a new world!
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Narinder,
The law of probability and association to dizzy heights !
Here’s another. Except for N you share all the alphabets with Adolf Hitler. And the N with Nero.
Some cocktail, going by your worldview.
regards
sudhir
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Dear Jeff / Bill & Sudhir ,
very thoughtful conversation in this blog , just to say that i am an ex christen , who was totally disillusioned by the way of the church and have found eternal peace in Hinduism and Buddhism / there are many like me where i live who have moved out of Christianity and have found solace in Hinduism / Buddhism .
I am not a strong believer in religions , however i am a strong believer of being human … in Hinduism
i found respect for all religions / i rarely met a Hindu who lets other faith’s down / i have seen christen always trying g to put other faiths down proclaiming theirs to be the true faith .
The tenet of a true religion is in its being all encompassing / unfortunately which is not so in Christianity . Even Christ had gone eastwards for this true enlightenment / spent a lot of time in Buddhist monasteries and spending time with hindu enlighten men / gurus . The Vatican has not release the details … but there will be a time when the same would be reveled / pls check Christ’s missing years …
a religion that is older than all still survive s with 1/3 of the world includes Buddhism ,still following it says a lot of its spiritualism and depth .
I am surprised the way Jeff & Bill is so blinded by by their own faiths , that they do not respect Sudhir’s far intelligent arguments or other ways towards god .
Not in 1 post did I see Sudhir insulting christens / but jeff and bill has been consistent in insulting hindusim and its tenants / this goes in showing the nature of their religion they follow … I think these are my last words which shows the basic difference .
You would be surprised that number of ppl turning towards eastern philosophy for peace and salvation across the west . In the place where I live on the west coast I am seeing a sea change in ppl trying to practice the eastern way of life and I an happy that they are truly moving towards greater spiritual horizons .
Yansik K
Ex christen
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Hi Yansik K,
Thank you for stopping by and sharing your perspectives. I must start off by saying that I am curious about your claim:
I’m trying to understand how that is possible. A Christian is a sinful, fallen human being who has been called out of darkness by Jesus Christ. Through repentance and faith in Christ a Christian’s relationship with God is restored. We now KNOW the Savior and have a relationship with Him.
Did you:
1) KNOW Jesus Christ and have a personal relationship with Him… and then reject Jesus Christ in spite of your intimate relationship with Him?
2) NOT KNOW the Savior in a relationship with Him — at all — and therefore reject the “churchianity” so prevalent in the world.
I must say that I have observed option 2 quite often, but for those who really understand salvation… that it is not some “cosmic experience” or other such feeling — but that it is the truth of the Creator of the universe coming into His creation to redeem fallen man, restoring the relationship that man severed, seems impossible.
To give a small example: I could leave my wife, but could not deny I had a relationship with her. We are, Scripturally, the bride of Christ — That is the Biblical definition of Christ’s Church.
How old are you? Are you sure you’ve found ETERNAL peace?
Me either. Jesus Christ reserved His most scathing, condemning pronouncements against the professional ‘religionists’ of the time… that of the Pharisees.
RELIGION is not what Christ is about. Many “churches” get this wrong… for example the RCC. Many cults do this, such as JWs and LDS.
There’s your problem. Even on our “best” days, we are liars, thieves, adulterers-at-heart, blasphemers, murderers-at-heart, coveters, idolators, etc. Just take a look at God’s standard: the 10 Commandments. Evaluate yourself against those: Have you EVER told a lie? Ever stolen ANYTHING, EVER?
Go through the list and see how you do.
The Good News (the Gospel) is that there is forgiveness of sins through Christ Jesus: “but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners (law breakers), Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8)
Yeah, that’s an old story, completely without basis. You have any proof? I’d LOVE to see it.
This one should be on SNOPES.
So… there’s no evidence, because it’s supposedly being withheld. That’s proof?
That’s nice, but that’s not the real issue. The question is “are they TRUE”? Are all religions TRUE?
Obviously not, since Christianity claims it ALONE is true, and ALL others are false.
So, which one — or ones — is/are true?
That’s a pretty important question.
No, it says a couple of things:
1) Man’s depraved, fallen heart does not seek God. So, we invent our own religion where we create “gods” of our own imagination that perform the way we command them to.
2) We love the darkness! The Bible says: And this is the judgment: the light (Jesus Christ) has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.” (John 3:19)
See above.
Well, ignoring sudhir’s comments to me, like: “All will be saved without your smart theology and slow venom.” and “Jeff H seems bound to an organisation which follows Hitler’s advice that to achieve your aims, choose a really BIG LIE. The bigger the LIE and more often it is told and the louder, the more it is likely to succeed.”… I would suggest you consider how Christ Himself rebuked those who were in error:
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.” (Matthew 23:13-15)
… and Jesus continues on, to grind these false religionists.
So, if you think that we are called to be Christ-like — SO BE IT!
1) Hinduism does not offer “salvation”
2) Quantities of fallen humans running lemming-wise into the abyss of a false religion? That’s your reasoning for labeling it “true”?
Jesus said: “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.” (Matthew 7:13)
Nice talking with you. I hope you see, though, the illogical nature, the folly of your claim to be an ‘ex christian.”
You were just another false convert, and never saved to begin with.
In Christ Jesus,
– Jeff H
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Dear Yansik,
Thankyou for your post. And thanks more for taking the time to read the considerable activity on this blog.
In many ways I agree with Jeff. In Hindu scriptures it is written you find your Guru or your leap of intuition only when you are ready. It also does not matter where you found your Christ. Christ as an object of devotion and spiritual inspiration. Not necessarily Christ as in Paul’s theology. Whether He would have approved of the theology cannot be answered unequivocally. There are many theologies in Hinduism and Buddhism as well. But none that are the final arbiters. That honour goes to personal realisation. While there is much that the Church in general can take credit for, when it comes to core spirituality, the aggressive, take it or leave it, with us or against us, approach I find very perplexing.
with regards
sudhir
Dear Jeff,
It is good to be talking again. Allow me to respond to your words :-
“Well, ignoring sudhir’s comments to me, like: “All will be saved without your smart theology and slow venom.” and “Jeff H seems bound to an organisation which follows Hitler’s advice that to achieve your aims, choose a really BIG LIE. The bigger the LIE and more often it is told and the louder, the more it is likely to succeed.”… I would suggest you consider how Christ Himself rebuked those who were in error:
Two points
You have certainly dug up some words borne out of exasperation at the in-your-face insults and innuendo, which has no more basis than what was agreed upon in a council of priests and barons against political ferment. The certitudes are like the military is fond of. Either or, black or white. The world of the spirit runs on different principles. Even the New physics has found little use for certanties. They talk of probabilities.
So the point is both Christ and Christianity are respeced in the East. But a constant barrage of unreasonable and pointed insults may certainly bring some response directed at the originator.
regards
sudhir
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Hello sudhir,
The Bible is a result of divine inspiration. You cannot separate “Paul’s theology” from Christ’s. They are one and the same, with the same Author: God.
“For when one says, ‘I follow Paul,’ and another, ‘I follow Apollos,’ are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building. According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:4-11)
You are implying disparity where none exists.
The Word of God, the Bible, is the only Ultimate Truth.
Personal realization comes from following where our dark, wicked hearts lead us.
What, then, do you do with Christ’s claim of exclusivity?:
“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'” (John 14:6)
I was responding to Yansik K’s claim:
Clearly, you did insult Christians and Christianity.
False straw man. The question remains: Is the Bible true?
In Luke 1:1-4, Scripture states clearly that we HAVE certainty concerning Jesus Christ:
“Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.”
Immediately following, Scripture provides much prophesy and its fulfillment concerning the advent of Christ.
Again, the point is not whether “Christ and Christianity are respected in the East”… The question is: Are Christ’s claims TRUE? If they are true, then Christ is not ‘One of many gods’… He IS God. There are no others.
In Christ,
– Jeff H
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Dear Jeff,
So by citing those words and insisting you think you have established that Christ and Christiniaty are insulted because they wouldnt agree with me.
There is a story in the Panchatantra an ancient Indian repository of tales on Life’s wisdom – A wolf was drinking upstream of a lamb. Says to the lamb you are spoiling my water. The lamb says how Sir, I am downstream. So the Wolf says you insulted me with those words. The lamb then explains how that could not be an insult. The Wolf replies no actually he meant the lamb’s father insulted me yesterday and pounced on the hapless lamb.
Yes here is the big difference. The heart is wicked you say. Go inward to find God says the Rishi. He does not live on the seventh heaven.
I will repsond to some of the other things later.
regards
sudhir
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sudhir,
No, Christ and Christiniaty are insulted because you called them ‘slow venom’ and ‘a really BIG LIE.’
You will answer to Christ one day for what you have said:
“I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak” (Matthew 12:36)
More than that, you are condemned already by your self-professed rejection of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, as your Lord and Savior, and have devoted yourself to idols.
I will repeat for your benefit:
“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” (John 14:6)
Proclaim yourself a victim if you wish, but you have a date with the coming judgment, unless you repent and put your faith in Christ ALONE for salvation:
“But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” (Hebrews 9:26b-28)
May you be amongst those who eagerly await Christ’s return as one of His redeemed!
No… that’s what GOD says about our heart:
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9)
Well, we’re back to the wicked heart issue again, so… no.
You’re right… He reigns in Heaven.
He is also coming to judge the world:
“And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8)
Get ready!
In Christ,
– Jeff H
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Hi Jeff,
Jesus is certainly the Truth, the Way and the life. For all those who believe in Him thus.
For those who dont, insisting from rooftops that they do and forcing their hapless hands by devious means I still call –
“A Big Lie and Slow Venom”.
Its not an insult. Its the Truth.
It applies not to Christ or Christianity
but to Churchianity.
Jeff you recognise this category , dont you.
Cheers
Sudhir
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sudhir,
sudhir, you forgot to quote the REST of John 14:6!
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
Nice try… 😛
You’re right about one thing, though:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life.” (John 6:47-48)
If you reject the Gospel, you are lost, damned by your own admission.
and…
So, the Great Commission, instituted by Jesus Christ Himself, is by your inference “A Big Lie and Slow Venom”. Your words. You will answer to Christ for them.
Thankyou Jeff,
The ‘tolerance’ like your ‘love’ is not unconditional.
sudhir
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sudhir,
On the contrary… Love compels me to warn you about sin and judgment.
In Christian love,
– Jeff H
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Hi Bill,
You may recollect quite a while ago I wrote this mail to you. I thought for all the effort it may be of interest to our bloggers. Here goes …
“Let me express my admiration for your streadfast faith, deep resolve to spread it, unrelenting industry and effective organisation. If Hinduism had a millionth of these it would not have been misunderstood and maligned so much. But the solace is that deep and sensitive minds all over the globe have recognised its breadth, depth and its majesty together with the truths of Christianity.
You asked “So, who has decided which deeds are bad?
For every action there is a reaction.So with human actions. Physiologically and Pshychologically, and in a deeper sense ecologically. Reaction to the deeds of avarice, anger, gluttony, covetousness, lying will hinder your spiritual progress. So certain dos and donts have come down in the body of spiritual literature as primary school curriculum for the spiritual path. There is a long way to go after that. Isaac Bashevis Singer (?) or an israeli literature Nobel Laurete anyways once said – I see Judaism as a straight river meeting the sea on the plain below, from a cliff on a clear day. And I see Hinduism as a innumerable mountain ranges one higher than another which eventually disappear above the clouds. This discussion about good or bad deeds is at the foot of the first mountain range.
Has God decided?
At one level God is definitely seen Personifying a union of the whole creation – in anthropomorphic forms such as in the ‘Viraat’ form shown to Arjun by Krishn in the Geeta. He is certainly seen to intervene in the Karmic Cycle with Grace for the devotee. But he is not seen as the ultimate grand old man laying down the law of the land in time and space. There is however a definite concept of right and wrong. Punya and Paap. Meritorious deeds and sinful deeds. And much of this has come down to us from Rishis or enlightened seers who “heard” the truth in their mind’s ear ( as revealed to them by God), in exalted states. But there is no theology positing good and evil as two poles on which the whole scheme of things in creation stands or falls. In the Ramayana a religious, spiritual, penace making, Shiva worshipping, learned king Ravan, abducts Rama’s wife Sita or (Goddess of the Universe), thereby commiting a grave sin. He had the good fortune of being killed by Ram (incarnation of God) Himself and therein lay his redemption. He goes straight to heaven. As a child we saw the king as the villain of the piece, the Devil. As you grow you know who he really is. So these stories are huge symbols to express the sublime to the masses. They are not to be taken literally.
So yes finally as the whole grand scheme is God’s He has decided. But He delegates by revealing to the Rishis.
“How many gods do you believe in?”
That depends upon what one means by the word. If you mean the Ultimate Reality (Sat), the Ultimate Consciousness (chit) and Ultimate Bliss (Anand), the One without Second ( Adwitiya), the One beyond Time (Akal), The One beyond Space (Anant), the One without form (Nirakar) – it doesnt need more insight than a Grade 5 child to say that this is possible only in a Unity. So God here is ONE. But not in the sense that Romans or Greeks had Zeus and Apollo and Poseidon but we have only ONE. We mean the God in these terms cannot be conceived in any other terms but Unity. And this every illiterate Hindu knew without any math class through millions of images he worshipped or inclined to worship.
But this Unity can also be differentiated in a million forms each reflecting some part of the Unity. Each of these could be termed as ‘god’ without forgetting the reverse direction of integration back to Unity. HInduism says God the Undifferentiated is formless and ineffable. To reach it you could conceive of it in any form that pleases your spirit. If you have been fascinated by the stories and antics of little Krishna on your mother’s lap and later reading on your own his discourse in the Gita and his Viraat form and if that Krishna’s form evokes in you thoughts and feelings of devotion, choose this form for your devotions. This is your ‘Ishta Dev’ or your personal god. Likewise for someone in a village who feels the same way through the image of the village deity. That is his or her ‘Ishta’. The monkey god Hanuman is the ‘Ihta’ of crores in India. And do you know who he was. He was a great devotee of Ram and through his unparalled devotions reached an exalted position next to him. It is actually surprising why there are only so many gods in India and not many more.
So to answer your question, ONE GOd and INFINITE gods depending on which side of the coin you want to look at. The ancient Rishis who ‘heard’ in their inner ear, on the nature of the Unity and Infinity also devised the concept of Zero.
“So bad karma is the only punishment for bad deeds? What is the punishment for telling a lie (for example)?”
If you commit a bad deed – lying, cheating, violence, you are disturbing the natural order. The natural order will react in several ways. Repeated indulgence reinforces your tendencies and your personality is altered pulling you deeper down. Reaction may come here and now through interactions with external forces in the sense of deep ecology. Reactions (Karma) could also be carried with you to the next life as fine matter to work themselves out. Now these are natural processes in which the One God does not interfere. But in His conception with Form, as Viraat, or Bhagwan He engages in the cycle of Karma with Grace. He could be reached through any of the personal gods( Ishta) . Of course a stage comes when the seeker can drop the ‘Ishta’ form and move to the level of worshop of the Formless. Initiates to this are forbidden even to enter a temple. So these gods, million images, rituals, sin, good meritorious deeds are just the junior school of the spiritual and religious life.
“I appreciate that you have come very close to learning the gospel message. I would correct you on a couple of things. The doctrines of Christianity were not chosen by Roman bishops. Much of what you explained in your understanding of the gospel comes from the Old Testament. Judaism believes those things without any votes by us gentiles”.
My reference was more to the fact that several interpretations existed on what Christ actually said or meant. But like in a senate some were bundled out others were badly amended and what we get perhaps does not include the experience of equally enlightened men and women. What happennd to the Gnostic Gospels. The Dead Sea Scrolls. Why is the life of Christ from 12 to 30 completely blanked out. This is how an act of parliament is passed by a majority. And that is how it looks atleast from historical evidence as happened to the making of the Bible.
Also, faith in Jesus is more than intellectual assent to a list of doctrines. Jesus said we must die to ourselves and live for Him (Matt 10). That means that we must do what He says, which we do through His power.
When Christianity came on the scene the world had seen at the least some 5 to 10 millenia of intense spiritual enquiry in the subcontinent. A fascinated man watching the Sun go down … Suppose this Earth and Sun were not there then what would have been here … Suppose I were not there … the Human as a spiritual child talking to himself or the Sun. Through intense search and enquiry (certainly inspired by the One, call Him God) many exclaimed separately … I have found the mystery of the ineffable One.. of the Sun of the Skies .. of all there is and was and will be. That Thou Art. Tat Tvam Asi. Whatever is outside and whatever is inside is one continuum and that is the Ultimate Reality. Now tell me in thsi conceptio of the Universe is itpossible to admit of God as a grand old man with flowing beard ruling over the heavens and laying the law like an emperor of emperors. There are incarnations and many, there is sacrifice, there are good and bad deeds and there is penalty.
But believe me Bill here is actually a case of someone sitting on a really high mountian range probably above the clouds being told … oh you do not see far enough … come to my house by the straight river to the sea. I will tell you a story. THE story of the Universe. No belittling meant in this comparison just to juxtapose the situation. Question still remains that many Hindus let alone others are not aware of their heritage. This has social, historical and polticial reasons. But I am happy that like many things it is Americans who changing this. Do you think the article in Newsweek a few months back ” Are We all Becoming HIndus Now” has any firm basis ?
Since we’re discussing fruit, here’s an analogy from Jesus Himself. A fruit tree bears fruit. It doesn’t bear fruit to become a fruit tree, but it bears fruit naturally. A thorn bush bears thorns because it is a thorn bush. We are born as thorn bushes, but God changes us to fruit trees. We can claim to be fruit trees, but if we go on bearing thorns, everyone knows we’re lying. If we bear fruit, we know God has changed us into fruit trees.
The ancient Rishis preclaimed – “You are the children of Immortal Bliss”. That Thou Art. The Ultimate Substrate Brahman is within me. (Aham Brahmasmi) I am the fruit of God’s tree.
The Old Testament says Man was once in the lap of God. Not a HUGE difference there. Of some semantics and some intellectual trapeze maybe.
The Bible says – Humans You are vile, dead in your sins, a thorn bush. You have broken your covenant with God. The Rishis said, though you are One with HIM, You dont see that because of the veil ( how close to evil) of MAYA. Maya in sankrit simply means “which is not That”. There is a rope lying on the road at dusk. You see in it a snake. But the rope is there for you to see. How to overcome Maya is the essence of HIndu spiritual practice. Karma good or bad are all in the province of Maya.
We see that the terminal states of Man in both traditions are the same. On the way down for Man and the way back Up we may differ in our stories. You say it was transgression. Very clear and matter of factly. HIndu are not so sure why Maya. But they are quite claer what is the way up. There are many ways as are temperaments. It may not happen in one life. Time is cyclic. And it goes on.
I am myself surprised at this huge body of text. I hope it shall be some help towards understanding of Hinduism.”
best wishes
sudhir
– Show quoted text –
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First of all i am from India , a high caste kshatriya and an aryan. All those who reject Aryan theory do so to create a sense of equality which is good thing but for that plz dont destroy the history.
In 1500BC our ancestors from middle east came in to Indian subcontinent and adopted Hinduism(Hinduism is latest word but the religion with same traditions,caste system etc).
The biggest empire of India Mauryan empire was a hindu empire of Aryan roots. About hitler being a Hindu or not , my answer will be no he was not a hindu but very close to SANATAN religion(composed of hinduism,buddhism,jainism).
He never spill hatred against Hindu at all many of his friends were hindu like Subhas CHANDRA bose, once he said that he can conquer the whole world if he get the regiment of GORKHA and gorkha are hindu who pray lord Shiva and Goddess Kali.
Was Hitler a christian, my answer no way.
He is definitely close to Hinduism rather than any other religion of world.
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Dear Ashok,
I am from India too. But I am mystified at your beliefs.
You obviously dont reject the theory of Aryan supremacy. But why do you reject the theory that Aryans were not outsiders to India. Is it because that is what is taught in the official history books.
You say – “he (Hitler) was not a Hindu but very close to SANATAN religion(composed of hinduism,buddhism, jainism)”. Do you have any evidence in any of his writings, speeches or actions. Most readers of this blog would be interested to know.
regards
sudhir mittal
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Christainity – christ is the only way to salvation
Islam – there is no god but allah and muhammad is the messenger.
So according to these religions where does everyone else go to hell
Lord Krishna(god) – I abandon no one. Hinduism is the only religion that can bring brotherhood to all of mankind.
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Hi Reggie,
The issue isn’t which religion we like most, but which is true. Hinduism is false, and its gods are not gods at all.
There is one God, and He provided one way to get to heaven, which is one way more than He had to provide.
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi again Bill !
You do mean well, from the viewpoint of your convictions. Have you considered that those of the Jihadis are no different ? Only he is also ready to put his sword where his mouth is.
And what are you ready to put …. great deal of money…sure …. insults ….. undoubtedly …. suspension of all reason …..for the most part …. wishing away of millenia old cultures pursued by billions …. this whole blog.
Putting the sword where the eye should be ? … Equally explosive I would think.
I am sure you have some disagreements with Judaism. Have you tried some of your insults with them. ? If you have I shall be curious to know the results, in a country where marking out a Swastika on a hotel lobby glass by an Indian could land him in jail.
Cheers!
sudhir
Hi Reggie P,
Thanks for your post.
Your juxtaposition was very apt. Love thy neighbour. But why. Hinduism provides a direct answer. Because he and you are part of the same underlying essence. And frankly to me ‘the brotherhood’ in all other contexts is an uncomfortable phrase. It has meant blood and gore, conquest, rape and destruction. All in the name of some provincial God which is the only True God. And he would enforce this God by sword or cannon.
This blog needs more of your time Reggie P. Hinduism or any -ism (why even racism in a certain benign context) all have a place under the Sun. This wisdom of the East uncreated only discovered like physical laws of the Universe, can never be eclipsed by mere assertions based only on a holy legislative wish list. But in the age of multi media it can sometimes be outshouted temporarily. This should not be allowed too. Proposition for a proposition….. with patience and tolerance but not unconditional tolerance.
good wishes
sudhir
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Sudhir,
It seems you have a problem with the concepts of reality and truth. Regardless of your issues, what I’ve said is true or it is false. If it’s false, then out of love, you should attempt to convince me that what I believe is wrong.
Your dislike of Christian beliefs is not an argument against it, and I no longer care to discuss your feelings. If you disagree with me then please prove me wrong. Until you actually attempt to do this I will personally be deleting your comments.
Thanks,
Bill
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There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:11 KJV
The posts above only prove how true this verse is. When a pagan is pointed towards the one true God they refuse to follow Him. Many people seek after a god but not many people seek after the God.
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Sudhir,
As you can see your comment is gone. It is incoherent and illogical rambling. A fundamental law of logic is the law of non-contradiction. Principal A and not A cannot both be true at the same time.
You said, ” The disagreement is not with Christ, only with the Church’s claim to one coat fits all.”
That Jesus is the only way to heaven not the church’s claim, but Christ’s claim. He claimed it over and over. If you have a problem with that, your problem is with the Creator of the universe, not with any human.
Here’s the real problem in our communication. You said, “However, in the Hindu worldview there is no room for calling Christianity ( or any other religion) false nor to dislike it. It is both considered true and respected…”
How can the statements “Jesus is the only way to heaven” and “There are many ways to heaven” both be true? The answer is they absolutely cannot both be true. They are contradictory. As long as your thinking violates the laws of logic, you will have trouble with the real world, and you and I will not have any fruitful discussion.
I’m tired of your arguing that I’m wrong, yet claiming that all religions are correct. You are a hypocrite. Don’t bother commenting here again.
I sincerely hope you will find the Truth. I don’t think there’s anything else I can say to help you.
Bill
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Hello.
Just a couple of corrections, as what you have written is incorrect.
Where the Nazi idealism or belief set is similar to the Hindu in that Nazi’s believe
that there is a purity in the genes of an individual as Indians often believe in Superior Genes or at the very least superior families (wealth)
Hindus believe in the idea that people are born into a caste with some being born into a “Master” Brahmin and Ruler (Kind or Wealthy Family) castes,
where others are born into lower Merchant, Artisans and untouchable “Slave” casts.
Nazi’s of course, believed in a caste base society, with superior races ruling, while being served by lower races.
However, the ultimate aim of a Hindu is to gain higher incarnation in the Cosmos, closer to God and away from Demons and Hell worlds / planes.
(this is different to Buddhists who believe the aim of life is to eventually reach Nirvana and then, estiginguish Nirvana in order to put an end to all suffering).
As for Nazi’s, I am not completely sure as to what Hitler or the Nazi’s ultimate spiritual aim in life was, however apparently Hitler did mention a lot about the 1000 year reign which is found in Revelations and many Christian Sects refer to.
However, his mention of the 1000 year reign may simply be manipulation.
This, or something completly different, perhaps even related to Hitlers interest in the Occult and Black Magic.
There is also the theory that Hitler believed that he was the reincarnation of a German profit, so he may still be referring to a 1000 year reign of Christ, but perhaps not the Christ that we all know dipicted in the new testament.
As for the Swastica, I agree, it is a very popular architypal symbol that has been used by many religions as early as history can date, however the main distinction in Hitlers
use was that his Swastica was going in the opposite direction to that of the Buddhists.
This is an important distinction and perhaps symbolically important.
It is possible that Hitlers aim was to do the opposite to that of the Buddhists, and instead of create Nirvana or Peace on Earth,
he was to create an Organized Chaos under his Rule. But this of course would need more evidence to prove.
Nonetheless, in my opinion, all types of caste systems are bad and will never lead to peace on earth. They will only create further conflict and destress between the rulers and the enslaven.
Man still has much to learn in order to find peace.
Only once mankind has learnt these simple fundamental lesson, will he be allowed to share in paradise with his creator (possiblly, terms and conditions apply. Read the small print about the apple).
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Justin James Roche – you said,
If you are serious about man being able to “share paradise with God”, you are in error. Man, in his natural state, is at war with God and does not seek reconciliation with him and cannot make himself fit to share anything with God. The Lord Jesus will save all whom the God the Father has chosen and Jesus will make us fit for heaven, to share in the glorious presence of God, clean from all sin – made righteous by Christ. Not by the works of man, lest any man boast.
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Hello Manfred.
I think you are in error. Mankind is not at war with God. Mankind is at war with only himself.
If you are a Christian, a Jew, a Rasta, a Muslim or one of many other Bible based faiths,
you will under stand that the whole concept of the Messiah is he who saves mankind from himself by giving him a solution to the problem that he created on the day that he broke Gods covenant by eating the apple.
(Lord) Jesus knew this when he talked of the new system of things. However, what people do not realise is that the new system of things must be embraced by all human kind before it will work as a method of creating heaven on earth, so that, as in Garden of Eden, Mankind can be reunited with their creator and where they can live as they were designed to, as friends of God.
Incidentally, the concept of Grace is something that developed by some secular followers of (Lord) Jesus, who were confused as to how it all worked.
Another explanation that in my opinion, is more plausible is that Jesus did not give people a “free ticket” with his Grace by offering that those who prey through him shall recieve salvation (eternal life / reconciliation with the lord), but, he offered to replace the damaging and abusive pharisees hierarchy of the day, who were abusing the holy laws and the people by demanding bribes etc.
Do I believe that (Lord) Jesus was God. Well, given the evidence available, I believe their is insufficient evidence to suggest without a doubt that Lord Jesus was God, however, everyone has the right to their own faith and you may not need the same amount of convincing.
Nonetheless, my post was not aimed at upsetting any one. I am sorry my take on things did not match yours.
I hope you can turn the other cheek.
If not, I fear we may never get to where we are all supposed to be going.
Peace be with you all what ever faith creed or religion you are.
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Incidentally.
The Early Rastafarian Movement could also be compared to Nazism.
There certainly are similarities.
Both have Fatherland / MotherLand
Both are connected to the occult
Both are race supremacists.
Both want to Oversee the human race as the Master race.
Both have a caste system.
Interestingly enough, most people asociate Bob Marley as a Rasta, although if you analyse what he beleived in,
during the later years of his life he was more an equalitarian / egalitarian, perhaps after hearing Haile Selassie (the first) speech on War which Bob Marley imortalised in the song titled “War”.
Incidentally, Haile Selassie did not confess to be a rasta either, in fact, during one interview he explained how confused he was about the whole rasta thing he was. He certainly did not convert and I think it highly unlikely that he frequently smoked weed or any other drug.
But there you go, see how easy it is to think you know about something but have no idea what so ever.
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Incidentally Manfred,
and in the danger of causing even more controversy.
Does any one think that one possible theory why some of the early christian pioneers were so due to the profit that could be made from doing so.
For example. If such a religion became very popular today, some less than unscrupulous people may cash in and may even become known as the highest authorities even though they are bogus.
Perhaps some may even fake miracles such as visions or dreams etc. in order to fool people into believing that they have divine authority. in order so that they could then exploit their followers in all ways.
Sound like anyone from the Bible depicted with horns.
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Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Romans 5:1 ESV)
If anyone is not a Christian they are at war with God. More specifically I should maybe say that God is at war with them.
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A comparison could also be made between Nazism and Early Rastafari,
which also was based on Race Supremacy.
Early Rasta also
had occult elements
Race Supremacy
Caste System
Motherland
Not to be confused with the words of Halie Selassie, who seemed mile more fair.
Incidentally, Bob Marley, during his later years drew more inspiration from Halie Selassie
than the Rasta Movement who’s ethics were based more on equality than race supremacy.
An example of this would be in the song War, based on one of the Halie Selassie ‘s inspirational speeches to the UN.
As for Halie Selassie, he was said to be confused by the whole rasta Phenomenon, and was unlikely to be a daily pot smoker, as rasta farians are depicted. Od really, as they are supposed to be his followers.
Another example of how people can see something that isnt there, or is it?
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“shane says:
June 7, 2011 at 2:25 pm
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Romans 5:1 ESV)
If anyone is not a Christian they are at war with God. More specifically I should maybe say that God is at war with them.”
Hello Shane.
Hope you are well.
I am pleased that you are feeling at peace.
But please do not judge others. (judge and you shall be)
If every man on this earth looked after their part of the bargain and kept good books, we would all have peace.
Please do not give up on any one. No one is at War with God.
God does not want his children to die. He wants all to be given salvation.
Think of how your secular words may bring war against your brothers in themselves.
Every tree is known by its fruit. What fruit do your words offer.
What fruits bring peace and godliness.
What words bring war?
Please choose Love over hate
Peace over war.
Above all
be peaceable.
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Shane> applies palm to forehead in a fast manner and is in a state of bewilderment.
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You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
(John 8:44 ESV)
Not everyone is a child of God. Sorry Justin, but you can quote all of the philosophy and extra Biblical sources you like but it doesn’t change the fact that everyone without Jesus is at war with God. In the end those people without Jesus will find out what the outcome of that war will be and they will not be on the winning side.
[4] For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
[5] The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
[6] You destroy those who speak lies;
the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
(Psalm 5:4-6 ESV)
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Jesus did not get along with the teachers of false religion and neither did His apostles. Yes Jesus is love and righteousness but He also hates sin and wickedness. All of those that practice such things will face the consequences which does not include Heaven.
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV)
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Matthew 13:41-42 ESV)
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@ Justin Roche:
I don’t like doing this but I’ve pulled your last three successive (spamming) comments and am showing you to the door. Your outright blatant misuse of Scripture is not welcome here and your ad naseum “judge not” and “Jesus is only love” all wrested from Scripture (out of context of course) have grown old very quickly. You have (rather quickly) revealed that your only intent here is to introduce false teaching.
Object?
Then please see our Rules of Engagement, paying careful attention to numbers 1, 2, and 7.
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it makes sence that hitler was hindu because the swastika that the hindus use is identical to the Nazi symbol
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The guy who posted this answer doesn’t know a lot about hinduism, especially the swastika..
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Hi Ray,
Please explain what you mean.
Thanks,
Bill
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Wow Bill I too love to live in your tiny bubble. Hinduism is just more than what you perceive. That is why to be a Hindu and understand it you have to be born one. Hinduism is not a single religion it is a collection of thoughts came from a free thinking society. Gods have different faces to show acceptance and not to hate ones who you don’t agree with. There are various schools of thought in Hinduism. We simply do not close our eyes and follow a guy with our eyes blinded. But this forum has helped me to understand one thing. You can either follow christianity or be a free thinker. Even if your God is true and he sends me to hell I will be at least happy that I can think and question rather than following a blind religion not to forget a vengeful god.
@shane
What if Muslims were right and Jesus is a messiah sent by Allah? What if your entire belief system i.e, bible is wrong? What if God is the one who loves all and judge those who thinks other as wicked? What if true lord is Buddha?
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Hello Ananthapadmanabhan,
Like other Hindus I’ve spoken with, you tout Hinduism as being tolerant and open minded, all the while saying how terrible Christianity is. If you’re so open-minded, why aren’t you open to Christianity being correct?
Thanks,
Bill
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Hello Bill,
If I say Christianity could be the right way some of your zealous friend would go there is only one way to salvation i.e, through Jesus. I am not saying christianity is wrong or right. All I try to say is do not be over zealous and hate other religion.I said what I said because the only way to talk to irrational person is by irrational talk.
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Hi Ananthapadmanabhan,
If Jesus taught that He’s the only way to get to heaven, and Hinduism teaches that there are many ways to “get to heaven” (realizing Hindus don’t necessarily believe in heaven), do you think they could both be correct?
Thanks,
Bill
2 Thess 1:8-9 “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…”
John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”
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Sant Hitler Singh ji was a Kalki avatar.
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if we want to know about the relation between Hitler and hindu, I think it’s necessary for us to find the use of Sansekerta or Devanagari in German culture. as I know, hindu always use sansekerta and Devanagari in everywhere it’s tought bacause Sansekerta and Devanagari are the language and letter that are used in Weda(Holy Book of Hindu).
Avatar is a manifestasion of God (Sang Hyang Widi) that appear in the world. Avatar always come in order to save the world from the evil. Hitler was the opposite from this concept so I think he was not an Avatar.
Hittler was not a Hindu because he didn’t use consept of Karma in everything he’ve done and he deserve to be in the deepest hell for what he’ve done.
the last, the porpose of Hindu is not heaven nor nirvana but Moksa. It’s a place where the soul of human stay and unite with the God and do not get reincarnation to life in the world and get pain as an mortal anymore.
I’m an Indonesian Hindu. Sorry if my English is not Good enough. Thank you…………
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hi bill
your question about hitler was a Hindu -Definetly no…he never follow Hinduism in any means and why he uses Swastik symbol has different sort of answers and in my view the symbol spread from India itself and invaded every part of the world by the visitants or travelers of India from Centuries. As the typify attracts them ,they propaganda it and mostly the visitors were unaware to the local language they define it in their way. so most definitions are odd to original meaning of Swastik which is ” to be good”. as the symbol was widely spread it was used by varies nations various people and varies communities in different names and designs. in that Hitler was one who adopted the symbol for his own greed and rest of us are time passing why he used that symbol only……
and coming to Yoga which means “To Unite” and it tells how to become the best as human being and not what you told as God .. as there are different compounds for different purposes like Pum-yoga, Guna Yoga,Cakra yoga , Bhakti yoga, Kriya Yoga, Candra Yoga which directs you to improve health of yourself and the Society and ultimately to achieve MOKSHA (which is liberation from all worldly identification and the cycle of birth and death).
coming to the last one ,,,mostly you differently stated the Aryans as racists and in my view they were who followed and practiced the noble principles and develop further principles in view of a better society.
and one thing i wanna tell u about Hinduism and how the followers are going to pay for the Sins
in Hinduism every act is considered as Karma (being good or as bad). No one can escape from the acts what he did. he can take the karmas after death with the soul and the soul itself punished for the wrong acts and this was explained in Garuda purana.The second half of this Purana deals with life after death and for the good (sat karma) he will be provided a better life.
so in order to get a better life the Hinduism provides the steps to follow until to reach the ultimate that is Moksha or going to the presence of God.
Also the religion provides the remedies for the Sins to the followers and it is based on that the root of every sin is the greed that one would have
just in Christianity telling the wrong sins before the Jesus itself vanish your sins and made pure yourself like that realizing the wrong acts and accept before the God and society will torn the sins from soul, but here the condition one should not repeat the same sin and begged for realizing
here i want to say another the root of Hinduism is in-frangible as the concept based on worship the God and not the EMISSARY of God. and can u tell me whether Jesus is god or an agent of God
faith on own religion is like what trust on father . every one has the right to defend their belief on own religion . and all of us have various questions regarding other religions. clarify them and dont blame others (as all the religions has the main common theme that is peace and brotherhood )
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Thank you Bill for insulting Hinduism in a very ridiculous way. This gives a brief description about your lack of knowledge about the world you live in. I don’t know about yours but my parents have taught me to talk politely to people, especially strangers, so here it goes.
First, I’d like to clarify that all cows are holy for us because of the one that saved one of our gods. For us, the cow is a source of purity, productivity and love. We refer cow as mother. We believe all the gods and goddesses live inside the cow, so cow urine is considered holy. It’s a superstition practiced by 1% Hindus. You believe people are going to hell for that, so I’m laughing on you right now.
Bill, you believe in the bible, good for you. But come out of your box, the whole world is not going to act according to your bible. In my religion, having a kid without marriage is considered a sin. Am I saying half of the United States are sinners and will go to hell? So mind your tongue or fingers before saying/ typing that.
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Hello Harshalpatil,
Thanks for your comment. The Bible also teaches that having children out of wedlock is a sin. In fact, even thinking lustful thoughts is a sin (Matt 5:27-28). So, not only do I believe that those who have illegitimate children deserve hell, but those who think lustful thoughts deserve hell. I don’t have any illegitimate children, but I’m guilty of sexual sin, and deserve hell. How about you? Do you know anyone who hasn’t had a lustful thought? We all deserve hell.
God has given us His law. He’s told us what the penalty for breaking the law is (eternal torment in hell), and He will judge even our thoughts. Even if you dislike the Judge’s laws and decisions, that just makes you like most other guilty criminals who think their judge is a jerk.
There is only one way to escape the just Judge. God made a way to maintain His justice and forgive guilty sinners. Jesus is God in the flesh, and He came to this earth and lived a perfect life. He paid for sin on the cross and rose from the dead. That is called the gospel, and in response to that good news, you should repent from Hinduism, and all your sin, and turn to Christ.
As far as your outlook on cows, that stems from false, idolatrous beliefs. There is only one God and all others are false. Hinduism is demonstrably false. The concept of maya can be reduced to absurdity.
But the issue is that you know the one true God–the God of the Bible, and you are living in rebellion to Him. You will suffer in hell for eternity for that. But please remember that there is forgiveness in Jesus Christ. I would plead with you to think about this.
Thanks,
Bill
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hi bill
Jesus is God in the flesh, and He came to this earth and lived a perfect life. He paid for sin on the cross and rose from the dead.
what u said rise from the dead makes a person as God in India most of the followers did the same in their life and almost all of them were followers of Hinduism and they never expressed them as Gods but set the rules to be followed to reach the God and they proclaimed them as Gurus
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Hello Pavan,
I’d be interested in looking up an example of what you’re talking about. Can you provide a reference? Are any of those who rose from the dead still alive?
Thanks,
Bill
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hi bill
can u clarify me is Jesus still alive on earth
and yeah definitely i will give u the reference names of the saints and u can Google them Adi sankaracharya , Mahavatar Babaji , shirdi Sai baba,etc
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Hello Pavan,
This is what I was able to find:
Adi sankaracharya:
As per legend, he used the art of “para-kaya pravesa” (the spirit leaving one’s own body and entering another’s) and exited his own body, which he asked his disciples to look after, and psychically entered the dead body of a king. The story goes that from the King’s two wives, he acquired all knowledge of “art of love”. The queens, thrilled at the keen intellect and robust love-making of the “revived” King, deduced that he was not their husband, as of old. The story continues that they sent their factotums to “look for the lifeless body of a young sadhu and to cremate it immediately” so that their “king” (Shankracharya in the king’s body) would continue to live with them. Just as the retainers piled Shankracharaya’s lifeless corpse upon a pyre and were about to set fire to it, Shankara entered his own body and regained consciousness.
Mahavatar Babaji:
Although Jesus is the Western exemplar of resurrection, there are others, both eastern and western, whom history and legend record as similarly transubstantiated. According to legends in various esoteric traditions, a number of “ascended masters” have attained to that condition and are accessible to us when they choose to be. Among them are Melchizedek, Ezekiel, Count St. German, Boganathar, Kriya Babaji Nagaraj (also known as Mahavatar Babaji and Shiva Baba), Kuthumi, Dwaj Khul, El Morya, Matsyendra Nathan and Swami Ramalingam. Collectively, they are known as the White Brotherhood, the Illumined Ones or true Illuminati.
shirdi Sai baba:
Several incidents are reported in which Baba was seen in flesh and blood at distant places away from Shirdi after his passing away. In some cases, Baba appeared in people’s dreams and later in real life. This resulted in increased faith in Baba and knowledge about existence of Baba spread slowly. The re-appearance of Baba is similar to the resurrection of Jesus Christ believed by his worshippers.
Please let me know if I missed something, but these are legends. The Bible provides the only worldview that makes sense out of the world we live in. The proof that the Bible is true is that it would be impossible to prove anything if it weren’t true. Truth and absolute laws of logic can only come from a Christian worldview, and are necessary preconditions for proof and evidence. It is authoritative, because it is God’s word. We can trust it when it says something miraculous happened because God cannot lie.
Jesus is alive and in the same physical body He occupied on earth. He is in heaven until He returns to judge the Earth. He is the Creator of the universe, and the only true God. All other gods are false gods, and worshiping them is idolatry. His resurrection isn’t just there to be an impressive story. We’ve all sinned, and if God is to forgive anyone and still maintain justice, He had to make the payment for sin on our behalf. He lived a sinless life, and after He satisfied God’s wrath, death could no longer hold Him. It is the proof that we will all rise from the dead again one day to face God’s judgment or His mercy.
I’m interested in your beliefs about maya. Can you explain it to me?
Thanks,
Bill
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The swastika is the forming of two lightning bolts to make a cross. Its a mockery of Christ because Satan fell from heaven like lightning. It is a Satanic symbol. The biohazard symbol we see, its actually three cresent moons forming the wiccan/pagan symbol of the Celtic Goddess Diana, the trinitarian Goddess. As is the symbol on the New King James version. The difference between that and the original symbol is that there is no circle going through it making it feminine. my question is does anyone know how i can get a hold of the original king james?
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Hi Cassie:
Manfred wrote, speaking to you in a different post, “use capital letters and also use proper punctuation, such as apostrophes for possessives.”
I don’t mean to be critical or insulting in any way, but how is it you’re able to go from writing in a virtually confused and unintelligible manner to your last reply that was well structured and concise?
Just an observation!
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I am actually quite articulate. I just had a lot to say and most of it emotional vomit. i was writing as i was thinking it. I also did not have the patience to fight with my broken keys. As i said, I’m 23. Most of the intelligent people i know my age are fluent in chatspeak and standard English. i also am not a very good typist, so when i have a lot to say, i try to take shortcuts.
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K bill i wasnt impressed with ur explanation ——- a)Jesus is alive and in the same physical body He occupied on earth. b)He is in heaven until He returns to judge the Earth. His resurrection isn’t just there to be an impressive story. We’ve all sinned, and if God is to forgive anyone and still maintain justice, He had to make the payment for sin on our behalf.
what u told is contrary to one another
there is a saying in India … there is nothing in the world if it is not in Bharatham….
and if u want to know about absolute laws of logic u have to know abt Tarkasasthra
in Hinduism there is a sacred book Bhagavathgitha (teachings of God ) … in it the lord says no one is God except me and all the other who praise others also reach me like what every river merges finally into the ocean.
what do u want about Maya bill?
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Maya very briefly is that which prevents us from perceiving the unity between the Self and the Superself or Atman and Paratman or simply man and God. That which stands as a screen accluding your true self so to speak. Hindu scriptures dont say why Maya. Linguistically it means ” that which is not”. Ma = Not, Ya = this . Something which is false. To me this is analogous to if not encompassing the concept of Sin. So if redemption from Sin is the goal in Christianity, rising above Maya is the goal in Sanatana Dharma.
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Bill said, “The Bible provides the only worldview that makes sense out of the world we live in. The proof that the Bible is true is that it would be impossible to prove anything if it weren’t true.”
Exactly Bill.
The Bible is the ONLY book that has prophecies spoken by GOD and that are specific that have come to pass with 100% accuracy.. NO BOOK on the face of this earth that claims to be from God has prophecies
Jesus fulfilled Over 300 Old Testament prophecies..For example: hundreds of years Isaiah said He’s going to be born of a virgin and He was. Micah said He’s going to be born in Bethlehem and he was. Zechariah said He will come in on a colt or a donkey and He did. Jesus even refers to predictive prophecies about himself all throughout the New Testament. Luke 4:25, 27. Isaiah 52:13-53:12 are the most outstanding examples of predictive prophecies about Christ. They involve his life, his rejection in ministry, his death, his burial, and his reactions to the unjust judges.
David saw what was ahead and spoke of the Resurrection of the Christ in Psalm 16:10. Acts 2:30-31. Acts 1:16 clearly says that the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit SPOKE through the mouth of David concerning Judas,
But this is how God fulfilled what HE had foretold through ALL the prophets, saying that HIS Christ would suffer. Acts 3:18 >>Acts 3:13-16 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15You killed the Author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. and Acts 3:24 “Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days.
John 12:37 Says that ” Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in thier presence, they STILL would not believe IN HIM.”
2 Peter 1:19 ” And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star roses in your hearts.”
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Hello Pavan,
You said, “what u told is contrary to one another”
I don’t understand what you’re saying. Maybe you can expand a little. What is contrary to what?
My understanding of maya, is that it is the illusion of distinctions. That in actuality, all is one, but maya is the illusion that there are distinctions. Meaning, in reality, you and I and everything and everyone are one, and the appearance that you and I are distinct is illusion.
If my understanding is correct, this would lead to absurdity. The laws of logic deal with distinctions, and are inconsistent with all being one. If all is one, the laws of logic are false, and this conversation is nonsense.
However, since we are having this conversation, and it isn’t nonsense, all is not one, maya is a false teaching, and Hinduism is false. Your having this conversation would be demonstrating that you don’t really believe Hinduism. Am I misunderstanding?
The laws of logic are a reflection of the way God thinks. They are absolute, unchanging and universal. The God of the Bible provides the only basis for their existence.
Sudheer,
Sin is transgression (breaking) God’s law (1 John 3:4). For example, lying is breaking one of God’s laws. As guilty lawbreakers, God must punish us, or provide payment for our sin. The proper punishment for lying is eternal torment. How will you escape God’s justice?
Thanks,
Bill
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Bill.
I appreciate your knowledge of the terms in which Maya is sometimes described. But its true import is not that there are no distinctions here and now. The world of Maya is like a rope at dusk which appears to be a snake. Rope is the substrate and snake the perception and what brings the perception is Maya. The snake is real till it is recognised that it was actually a rope.
Not only through all the distinctions of you and me and this and that, it is also through all the names and forms arising out of the three Gunas, that the spiritual path must lead and this discussion must proceed. this is well recognised in the Indian worldview. The idea of illusion only means that the game of shadows and relative truths that Maya is, is actually played out against an absolute all pervading substratum where all contradictions merge, all names and forms cease to exist. Unity. Isnt that all the goal of all science. The Grand Unified Field Theory. The Theory of Everything. Even the quest of the Higgs Boson ispart of that pursuit. This unity does not annihilate. You and me and this world as we know it will still exist in this Unity but in a different mode. A mode perceivable through an exalted spiritual eye.
To remove the intervening screen of Maya is the goal. Isnt Sin also a kind of obstacle that is overcome by salvation. In the Hindu scriptures too there is the idea of ‘Kripa’ or Grace ie when the obstacle of Maya is overcome in one fell stroke through devotion. Point is – is it inconceivable that the laws of logic and reflection should take into account convergence of evidence something scientists swear by.
——————–
Bill. I think your view is part of the tapestry of Maya. Quite real while it lasts. But eventually illusory.
Thanks
Sudhir
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Sudhir,
You said, “The idea of illusion only means that the game of shadows and relative truths that Maya is, is actually played out against an absolute all pervading substratum where all contradictions merge, all names and forms cease to exist. Unity.”
That is how maya was described to me. My understanding is Hinduism teaches that once you realize that all is one, and distinctions are illusion, you become one with Brahman. That is, you personally cease to exist and become part of the oneness.
But clearly I’m misunderstanding somewhere. How do you reconcile maya with all the distinctions we see in this life. Are the distinctions real or illusion?
I appreciate your helping me have an accurate understanding of this.
Bill
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Bill. Probably I was not clear enough. Maya is the phenomenal ’cause’ of this world of distinctions. So it IS the distinctions we see in this life.
Hindu cosmology says – ” In the beginning of time all ‘Gunas’ (roughly primary entities equivalent to matter/energy/tendency) were in perfect equilibrium, encased in a golden egg ( Hiranyagarbha)”. Then there was a vibration (Kampan). The equilibrium was disturbed. The resultant field where in turn one Guna was predominant over others led to the evolution of ‘Brahmand’ or the Universe with all its forms and their myriad distinctions. The taxonomy of this evolution is interesting. It incorporated not just the world of matter but the entities comprising a sentient human being eg mind, intellect, consciousness. (Pse see ‘Tatva Bodh’ by Adi Sankara).
Maya is what inspired the world of name and form ( Namrup) to evolve from that suspended state of Being. It took perhaps millenia for spiritual scientists in India to understand/perceive/ visualise that behind the impossible contradictions and billions of seeming distinctions (which they termed the work of Maya) lies one Unity. “I have seen knowing what everything else is known” – exclaimed the sages. This vision however did not metamorphose them into ether. The vision translated into a worldview, into a cosmogony, into the concept of zero and infinity, into mind boggling conceptions of time and distance at either end, an outlook towards all sentient things, into a federation of very practical spiritual practices, subtle reflective music, an engagement with sound and experiments with the psyche, a hierarchy of truths where the ultimate truth was Unity.
What happens to those who See behind the mask of Maya. Some are called Jeevan-Mukta or ‘liberated in this very life’. But liberated in that they perceive the unity behind the distinctions and do their Karma accordingly.. They are still aware of their bodies. Many like Buddha and Sri Ramakrishna lived till a ripe old age helping others see the same light.
It is diffcult to discuss the transition of the soul from this world of Maya because it is bound to use the constructs of Maya. The body of course is treated as a composite of air, water,fire and space and so with no spiritual value after death. It is however believed variously that realised ( ie Maya conquering) souls (1) merge with the Godhead (Non Dualism/Advaita) or (2) merge with Godhead but are conscious of their existence (Qualified Dualism/ Vishitadvaita) or (3) stay under the wings of the Godhead but be fully distinct. (Dual/Dvaita). But these are scholarly distinctions. The last one reminds me of the Bible ( at the left/right hand of God) ?
I am not sure if this does not raise more questions than it tries to answer. But I suppose the trouble is we speak the language of the world of Maya to describe a world beyond it.
Thanks
Sudhir
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Sudhir,
I’m still having trouble grasping what you’re saying. It seems like you’re saying the distinctions are real–not illusion. But you’re also saying that everything is one. Those seem contradictory to me, i.e. you can’t believe the world we see is real, and that the distinctions are real, and at the same time everything is one.
Thanks,
Bill
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My understanding of maya, is that it is the illusion of distinctions. That in actuality, all is one, but maya is the illusion that there are distinctions. Meaning, in reality, you and I and everything and everyone are one, and the appearance that you and I are distinct is illusion.
If my understanding is correct, this would lead to absurdity. The laws of logic deal with distinctions, and are inconsistent with all being one. If all is one, the laws of logic are false, and this conversation is nonsense.
However, since we are having this conversation, and it isn’t nonsense, all is not one, maya is a false teaching, and Hinduism is false.
ur understanding of maya itself showing the bible has not any thing regarding this
k bill i want to tell u abt wat maya in our means
in my view maya is not what we see and wat we feel as far as Hinduism the God underlies in everyone by birth , but the acts (in my words Karmas) which are performed with the integration of this Worlds (Iha loka) maya makes the inner God to lift up or to drain him out of the body.
Hinduism proclaimed every one has himself god and as also others so respect each other (universal brotherhood).
In elaboration in every person there are two souls Jeevathma(our soul) and Paramathma (of god)
the paramathma making all the pleasures of this world and attract the Jeevathma towards ihaloka pleasures those who wants sensual enjoyment will run behind the sensual pleasures and the reason for it Already mentioned u it is Maya created by Paramathma. Hinduism which was originated far behind the birth of the Christian lord Jesus, followed the path set up by the Brahmarshis who were the utmost believers of God explained how the people was clutched with maya of sensuous pleasures and fail to recognize the external pleasure ie to stay in the presence of God which was set as the utmost goal for every human being to reach.
God test us by providing the pleasures in life and to reach it everyone follows their own ways and those followings are considered as Karmas (Buddhih karmanusarini — a proverb) and those who followed the karmas which the God himself revoked to do are evil ones and for those the person who followed that wil be punished and the God who was in that Sinner was drained out from him as and wen he did the wrong do’s. and he will be punished with the predefined punishments.
Next but who follow the good ways to reach and enjoy the sensual enjoyments which are also in maya coz they still fail to reach the Utmost eternal happiness of reaching God. they have given chances til he reaches God or practicing wrong dos which ever is earlier he cannot be treated as Sinner until he did wrongs.
Hindusim or the followers of the ancient Hindu culture provide the ways to go far out the Maya circle which was Jig jagged every where in this sensual World,and look God essence in everyone and everywhere in the world and enjoy both the sensual enjoyment and also the eternal happiness ie reaching to the presence of God. so the how to break up the maya circle was propagated in Hinduism ever since its origination so all the Other religions which was taken birth in front of Hindusm has no right to proclaim that this religion fails or falls. i have already told u Bill Hinduism was well established and spread allover like a Banyan tree . those religions which was came from the branches of the tree are feeling that they r supreme and they are supporting the head of tree which was fail to see that the root of them are based on on Hinduism itself.
By this u should know whether i am the follower of Hinduism or not.
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Bill.
I am happy to respond if it can help bring more clarity to a dense metaphysical subject. It sure helps clear my own mind.
Question is why distinctions we see in this life could be both seen as real and as part of a singularity.
First. There are several orders of reality. The flavour is psychological, metaphysical, philosophical and even rings of astrophysics and quantum mechanics all rolled into one.
Second. Reality is what we make based on our perceptions. Our workaday reality comprises two things – pure awareness and the content of that awareness. The awareness seems limited to our brain box. The content of awareness is entities of the world which are fragmented, fractured, contradictory. This is the order of reality we ‘experience’ with our sensory organs.
Third. Some spiritual explorers pushed the horizon of our perceptions. They ‘saw’ that our individual awareness is actually a subset of the Universal awareness. Our bodies are but differentiated and temporary composites of gross and subtle matter. Finally both awareness and matter came from an ultimate substrate or a potential state of being which can best be described mathematically as ONE or THAT.
Fourth. When this perception dawns, a higher order reality is seen. It is seen that we are not separate islands as we have ‘perceived’ above the ocean surface but really are the ocean floor beneath the waves. And at that level of reality we are all ONE. We continue to live in our body as islands. (albeit with high spiritual energy). But the ocean does not occlude our view of the floor anymore. Perhaps we do not take rebirth after this. (but this is in the realm of more complex theology and metaphysics).
Fifth. So evenwhile you live the lower reality of this ordinary world of distinctions, it is possible to ‘perceive’ and ‘live’ the higher and ultimate nature of your own existence and the world as part of an undifferentiated flux. This flux is not cessation. But source of all life and all worlds.
I will try to quote original sources as well.
Hope this is some improvement.
Thanks
Sudhir.
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isn’t this docetism?
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The essence of the doctrine of docetism is that Jesus Christ, being the divine son of the true God, was a purely spiritual being whose physical existence was illusory. That is, in the literal sense, Jesus’ body, his bodily death, and his bodily resurrection were illusions and not physical reality.
Docetism comes from the Greek word dokeo which means to seem, to seem. Christ only appeared to be manifest in the flesh. He only seemed to be human. They all deny the incarnation in the same significant sense.
Gnostic dualism taught that matter was inherently evil. Well with that being the case (one has) to explain how it was that Christ who was good could come in a human body which is matter.
. All of these theories from the religions of Hinduism to New Agers etc have this in common-they flatly deny the reality of the incarnation. They (all-the theories) are all based on anecdotal evidence and are antithetical to the Apostolic message that Christ came in the flesh. And they all attack the person of Christ. This heresy which is really gnosticism turned Christ into a Phantom, something unreal, something inhuman.
There are passages throughout the New Testament that were written explicitly to refute these ideas. Colossians 2:8-9 is a clear warning from Paul against Gnostic (all such) tendencies -such as Hinduism. And it’s also a refutation of docetism. Paul writes ” Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” He was warning them against the syncretism against philosophies, he was warning them against this docetism with a wrong view of Christ and he was also warning them against the dualism that was inherent in Gnosticism. All those are debunked here in this one passage.~
The Apostle John in 1 John chapter 1:1 refers to Jesus as “That which was from the beginning”-emphasizing (the eternal Deity of Christ). He wasn’t just an eon, he wasn’t just an emanation from the real God, He was “that which was from the beginning” and this emphasizes his (eternal deity.) This is the same way John begins his Gospel in John chapter 1. This is the affirmation that Christ is not a newcomer to the scene but Christ is the one who was with God and who is God from the beginning. John debunks docetism here by referring to Christ in verse 1 as “which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.” The point is John is telling us that he was an eyewitness to Christ, he handled him –Christ was no phantom nor was he an illusion.
According to the Apostle John in 1John 2:16- His description of the evil in this world deals with realities that are distinctly immaterial. Verse 16 “for all that is in the world (and he’s speaking of all the evil that is in the world) “”For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” He’s not teaching there that evil is matter or that matter is evil but just the opposite. He’s saying that the basic realities of evil are all immaterial realities.
what about this common Gnostic idea that a being called Christ merely inhabited the body of a man named Jesus? John also deals with that and this is at the heart of this epistle. Chapter 2:22 of 1 John-John labels this Gnostic view Anti-christian– “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”
In 1 John Chapter 3:5 the Apostle John debunks the notion that a physical body is sinful in and of itself. It says this about Christ. “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” -So his physical body can’t be evil because Christ was manifest in a physical body and he had no sin. These are crucial ones these are the ones that really nail it down -Chapter 4: 2-3 — hit any kind of Gnosticism head on. “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come (in the flesh is of God:) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
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Linda.
Never heard this term before. Now a I know a little.
Two points. What I write about applies to everybody and everything in this world here and now. It is not governed by any particular theological context. In that it is different from docetism. But so far as an Avatar of God in Hindu theology is also seen as subject to Maya, it would be similar.
But I think if seen through the prism of docetism ( which focuses on Jesus’s reality) it may be easy to overlook the context of Maya.
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The remark above was perhaps not sufficient. Actually the eventual point Eastern outlook makes is that no words will ever be. That the nature of God, the Ultimate Reality cannot be deducted or inducted or exemplified or underlined by anecdotes. But they nevertheless proceed to do just that only to humour themselves.
What is real what unreal is a major theme above. I think degrees of reality might be easier to discuss. Because absolute reality only exists in God, Brahma or whatever we name it. All other realities are composite and relative. I am not sure how important is this distinction – whether Jesus is seen as descended in flesh retaining the absolute reality of God, or seen as ‘God from the beginning’ animating the relative reality of matter. In my view both reflect His divinity and do not take away anything from what He said about moral conduct, devotion, relation between man and God …. Two men can never see the same river.
Gnostics, in my understanding do not call matter as evil as it is conventionally understood. I think they allude to matter’s unreality in the absolute scheme of things. And it is not easy to understand why syncretism is such a bad word in this discourse. Specially as the basic direction of human enquiry and indeed modern scientific enquiry is towards synthesis, integration, combining apparently unrelated fields, towards Unity.
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Its a common misconception that Hindus don’t believe in a single God.The single, all-pervading god of our universe and all others is Brahman. All things in the physical realm are aspects of Brahman’s consciousness. This is likewise true in the realm of deities, they are all aspects of the singular true God. So, for the one true God argument, I can’t agree.Research the symbolism behind the swastika as a religious symbol and you may better understand that it is more of a representation of a single god than what someone with a narrow understanding of the Hindu religion could fathom.
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Bill , you said that
“Lying is breaking one of God’s laws.
As guilty lawbreakers, God must punish us, or provide payment for our sin.
The proper punishment for lying is eternal torment”
am summarizing some blatant lies posted here
1.Through yoga and many lifetimes, people may become gods –
nowhere is it mentioned in any hindu scripture that you can become God through Yoga
2. You don’t see people drinking cow urine like they do in India.. That part doesn’t go in the yoga brochures –
Drinking cow urine is not a part of yoga, but a medicine recommended in Ayurveda, a scripture about medicine.
3. The author has consistently denied that Hitler was a hindu in the comments, but still keeps the title of the article as
“Was Hitler a Hindu?”, this is a cheap gimmick to attract web traffic, reeking of yellow journalism.
So, in your own words .. “How will you escape God’s justice?”
Regards,
Vishwas
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Hello Vishwas,
I’m sorry if I have misrepresented your beliefs. One thing I have learned from these conversations is that there are many different types of beliefs that are all considered Hinduism. Maybe you can help me.
1. Is your ultimate goal to become one with Brahman? How is this different from becoming a god or God?
2. I’ll have to concede this point on your authority. Have you ever drunk cow urine?
3. I don’t see the harm in coming up with an interesting title. While Hitler was not a Hindu, I believe Hinduism is demonic, and Hitler was demonic, and there are ties. I hope you don’t take my denial of Hitler being a Hindu as an acknowledgment that Hinduism isn’t pure evil, taking millions upon millions to eternity in hell. Hinduism has done much more damage than Hitler could have ever done.
You have accused me of lying. I don’t think I lied, but I may have misrepresented your beliefs out of ignorance, and I truly am sorry if I have. Christians should pursue the truth, no matter what the consequences.
However, I certainly am guilty of breaking God’s law, including lying. And to answer your question, I have escaped God’s justice by the only means He has provided. Payment was provided for my sins by Jesus Christ. All my past, present, future, intentional, and unintentional sins are forgiven.
What about you? How are your sins going to be forgiven?
Thanks,
Bill
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Bill,
It is good that you have realized your ignorance.
Don’t say sorry to me, I am a nobody.
Ask forgiveness to the God you have been misrepresenting out of your ignorance.
Regards,
Vishwas
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While I admit to feeling an outrage myself on first reading the cow urine post in particular and the approach to Hinduism in general, I strongly and unequivocally disapprove of the abusive language used in Chirag’s post. One could counter a strong expression with a strong expression. But this is hitting below the belt. Whatever merit the scientific data may have had is lost in the din of abusive vitriol.
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After checking Chirag’s comment, I agree it was way out of line. It has been removed and I apologize for letting it get through. Commenters need to review our “Rules of Engagement” before posting.
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Chris,
I had written a post explaining why I feel this article is flawed and poorly researched. But I find it has been removed. It had no abusive content. Can you put it in here or let me know the reason for not putting it so that I can modify the content.
Regards,
Vishwas
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It was never posted originally, it had been in the pending approval section. I reviewed your request, however, I will not remove another author’s article based on your personal objection to it.
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Chris,
Whether you remove the article is strictly a decision left to you and other moderators of this blog. But why has my post not been approved ? It contains some facts related to this discussion. My personal objections are my views just like other personal views in this forum. In the interest of an open and honest discussion, please post it or let me know the reason for not posting it.
Regards,
Vishwas
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someone deleted my previous comment … cowards….
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Vishwas, as your comment alleged that the article was innacurate and requested it be pulled, I considered it as a specific request for me to do so. As I did not believe it necessary to pull the article, I had not published the comment. My apologies for any inconvience this may have caused. You are welcome to repost the comment if you wish. Once again my apologies on this.
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Pavan, to which comment are you referring?
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i replied to bill that Comment
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I’m afraid that doesn’t tell me much.
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I do recall that comment Pavan, and I did remove it (as I did this one). Please refer to our rules of engagement. No personal attacks or slanderous comments will be tolerated.
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Chris,
You did not publish mu post starting “hello everybody” thinking that it was a personal request to you?
And if you did consider it to be a personal request, you did not even consider it fit to inform me that my request cannot be fulfilled?
Let me try to reproduce my comment a bit.
The author has written an article of hardly 50 lines.
And then he states later in a post that
“None of the conclusions I reached in this post can be proven.”
Should this not be a disclaimer in bold at the top of the article,
instead of admitting this somewhere in the clutter of comments ?
By not putting this in article, is this not intentional misrepresentation of facts,
equivalent to lying?
And this also shows how poorly researched this article is.
Is the author so inept that he cannot come up with 50 lines of hard facts.
He just came up with some fancy logic of his own, maybe googled around a bit and wrote down
the article, an article about which he later states in the comments
“I’m certainly not going to defend my conclusions tooth and nail.”
This only shows how casually he wrote an article concerning a religion he knows nothing about.
Is this ethical?
And finally, when we glance through these measly 50 lines the author could manage to write,
one finds glaring mistakes. Statements which are completely wrong. To top it he comes up with an “interesting” title which is worthy of some cheap publicity seeking tabloid, not expected in a blog about religion. This is vulgar yellow journalism, designed to instigate innocent people.
When questioned about these (check my discussion with the author couple of comments above) the author hides behind the veil of ignorance, apologizes and tries to change the topic using play of words.
Is this ethical?
While this speaks a lot about the author and his article,
allowing such an article also reflects very poorly on this blog.
As a moderator, you or your fellow moderators could have moderated this article.
It is possible that you were also not aware of these facts,
but now that you know, the only honest and unbiased action you can take would be
to pull down the article and instruct the author to come up with something sensible
next time, if at all he is allowed again to write an article. This can save the credibility of this blog.
The action taken will determine if the owners of this site actually believe in the ethics
they keep preaching about. Hope good sense prevails.
Regards,
Vishwas
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Chris,
I re posted my comment which you did not approve by mistake the last time.
I still don’t see it.
Regards,
Vishwas
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Vishwas, somehow the site filter had shunted the comment over into the SPAM folder. This has been corrected. Regarding your statement about why the original comment was not published, I have explained that, as I had no intention of pulling it down, I did not publish the comment. However, I realize that error and corrected it. Finally, the original intent of this article was draw parallels between the beliefs of Nazism and Hinduism, and the possible influence the latter had on the former. It does not represent to be a final authority on the matter, only to expose that both systems are false religions that are evil in the sight of the true God. As such, the article will remain despite your assertion that our credibility is on the line.
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i do accept with Viswas. and chris u done really good ..but have to maintain a sound spam checker … coz most of the bills comments are in the line of Violation abt a particular religion then y dont u delete those ….thanq
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Bill’s comments address the false teachings of a false religion. They are not directed as slanderous attacks against people nor is he name calling, or making deragotory statements about people’s level of intelligence. Thus, his comments remain.
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Chris,
Is the policy of this blog to allow an article loaded with false information by an author who himself has confessed his ignorance about the sensitive topic being dealt with?
Is the policy of this blog to allow an article which the author himself accepts cannot be proven?
Your actions indicate so.
Instead of a reply to my specific issues, all I see is a play of words and twisting of facts.
author/moderators, dig deep into your conscience and think instead of blindly supporting the article.
Mistake is a mistake, not correcting a mistake is a bigger mistake.
Especially when you have been provided an opportunity to do so.
Do the owners/moderators here want to give out a message that this blog is a place for sub standard articles and a platform for biased discussion.
Give this a honest thought and act.
Regards,
Vishwas
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Chris,
thats what i am saying .. who is he to decide whether a religion is false and the followers are wrong ..isnt it coming under ur definition of derogatory .. or if hurting the followers of a particular religion not comes under ur definition then u should be perfect at what a religion means ….
a religion is nothing but a group of persons following the customs and beliefs as union …..
the religion is itself represent it s followers …
interestingly the person who started this thread is under preconceived notion.. so he is using his words in an intelligent manner as Vishwas said. moreover the moderators of the site should be unbiased.. and u had to stop this thread when the discussion went beyond its main theme and stepped into religious dustup…
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Pavan, Jesus made it clear when He said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me,” (John 14:6 ESV). Thus any human effort outside repentance and faith in Christ alone is a man made system that will utterly fail. Thus, by definition, it is a false religion. The point of this site is to direct everyone to the sole source of salvation, Jesus Christ, and to expose all false religions which are leading mankind to Hell.
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Vishwas, if you believe our blog is sub-standard and loaded with errors, you are welcome to set up your own apologetics blog and write articles exposing our errors. However, you will not be allowed to co-opt this site in an attempt to determine what we can and will publish. Feel free to address whatever errors you believe exist here, politely and rationally, in the comments. However, if you continue to demand what we will and will not publish, your comments will be blocked. Thank you.
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Chris,
I dont think I could have spoken more rationally. I have stated facts, not irrational figments of imagination like this article. I have pointed errors in a very civil way, raising questions where required. However it seems my questions are not very easy for the experts here and they are getting hot under their collar, hence am threatened of being blocked. Remember Chris, even the institution of church has apologized for its action in past, whats this blog ? I wont cause anymore headache to you people, this is my last comment.
Regards,
Vishwas
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Vishwas, I did not suggest you have been anything less than civil, which is why your comments have been posted. My issue is that you have been adamant that we pull this article and I have clearly stated why we will not. Despite my explanation you continue to demand it be retracted. My warning was not intended to keep you from commenting nor raising legitimate questions. It was based solely on your continued efforts to be the person who determines who decides if an article should be published. I will not allow that and will block any comments that ignore our explanations and continue to call for the article’s retraction. Any other comments and questions, as long as they remain in the same polite and civil tone you have demonstrated, will of course be allowed.
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Namaste
Please find the real benefits what we got from our holy Urine(panjakavya)
Table – Chemical contents of cow urine and cure of diseases as per them. Yes Cow Urine (Gomutra) Benefits are there. Check the science behind this with given below table.
S. No. Name of chemical Effect of chemical on diseases
1 Nitrogen N2 ,NH2 Removes blood abnormalities and toxins, Natural stimulant of urinary track, activates kidneys and it is diuretic.
2 Sulphur S Supports motion in large intestines. Cleanses blood.
3 Ammonia NH3 Stabilise bile, mucous and air of body. Stabilises blood formation.
4 Copper Cu Controls built up of unwanted fats
5 Iron Fe Maintains balance and helps in production of red blood cells & haemoglobin. Stabilises working power.
6 Urea CO(NH2)2 Removes blood abnormalities and toxins, Natural stimulant of urinary track, activates kidneys and it is diuretic.
7 Uric Acid C5H4N4O3 Removes heart swelling or inflammation. It is diuretic therefore destroys toxins.
8 Phosphate P Helps in removing stones from urinary track.
9 Sodium Na Purifies blood. Antacid
10 Potassium K Cures hereditary rheumatism. Increases appetite. Removes muscular weakness and laziness.
11 Manganese Mn Germicidal, stops growth of germs, protects decay due to gangrene.
12 Carbolic Acid HCOOH Germicidal, stops growth of germs and decay due to gangrene.
13 Calcium Ca Blood purifier, bone stregthener, germicidal, ?? Rakta skandak ??
14 Salt NaCl Sanyas vishamta ?? decreases acidic contents of blood, germicidal
15 Vitamins A,B,C,D,E Vitamin B is active ingredient for energetic life and saves from nervousness and thirst, strengthens bones and reproductive ingredient for energetic life and saves from nervousness and thirst, strengthens bones and reproductive power.
16 Other Minerals Increase immunity
17 Lactose C6H12O6 Gives satisfaction. Strengthens Mouth, strengths heart, removes thirst and nervousness.
18 Enzymes Make healthy digestive juices, increase immunity.
19 Water (H2O) It is life giver. Maintains fluidity of blood, maintains body temperature.
20 Hipuric Acid CgNgNox Removes toxins through urine.
21 Creatinin C4HgN2O2 Germicidal.
22 Aurum Hydroxide AuOH It is germicidal and increases immunity power. It is highly antibiotic and anti-toxic
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The below given article is enough to proove, that which one is old and filled with Sacred,
The major Sanskrit epics, Ramayana and Mahabharata, were compiled over a protracted period during the late centuries BCE and the early centuries CE.[29] They contain mythological stories about the rulers and wars of ancient India, and are interspersed with religious and philosophical treatises. The later Puranas recount tales about devas(gods) and devis(godess), their interactions with humans and their battles against rakshasa(evils).
Increasing urbanization of India in 7th and 6th centuries BCE led to the rise of new ascetic or shramana movements which challenged the orthodoxy of rituals.[30] Mahavira (c. 549–477 BCE), proponent of Jainism, and Buddha (c. 563-483), founder of Buddhism were the most prominent icons of this movement.[25]:184 Shramana gave rise to the concept of the cycle of birth and death, the concept of samsara, and the concept of liberation.[31] Radhakrishnan, Oldenberg and Neumann believed that the Buddhist canon had been influenced by Upanishads.[32]
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The Bible is true and the Christ is a one of the truely God, and others are scattered and driwen out from heaven befor God create the Universal. They are Lusifer and his co.,
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Has it occurred to you just as there is no peace in a world of jihadis who see the world the same way, there can be no peace in a world conjured up by you Mani.
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Suppose I say I hear the same thing from the Jihadis Mani how would you respond ?
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