As Mark Driscoll continues to slide ever further into the culturally relevant abyss – debasing himself and his ministry in the filthy conversation of this fallen world in the process – we find the chorus of voices calling for the purity of Christ’s church and a return to Biblical modesty and genuine repentance rising louder and louder. I came across the piece below by Ingrid Schlueter and felt it important to share with DefCon’s readership in its entirety.
How long will the “Big Name” evangelical leadership continue to enable potty-mouthed Mark Driscoll’s unbroken patterns of sin and his public contempt of God’s Holy Word (Eph. 4:29; Eph. 5:3-4; Col. 2:1-8)?
Why do men of stature like John Piper seemingly coddle and “tee hee” and “giggle giggle, wink wink”at Mark Driscoll’s brazen and cavalier teenager-esque rebellion, thereby tacitly endorsing his aberrant and unscriptural behavior?
Are ANY OF THESE MEN willing to evaluate Mark Driscoll in the light of infallible scripture and give him a prayerful, earnest and godly rebuke in the love of Christ that he might repent of the error of his ways, or will they, like John Piper, turn a blind eye to the matter and pragmatically pretend that the ends justify the means?
Rise Up, O Men of God! Your Women Are Fighting the Battle
There are ‘mothers in Israel’ who are rising up to confront Mark Driscoll and his filthy mouth and materials. Why? Because the men in spiritual leadership today not only refuse to, but legitimize and endorse Driscoll’s “ministry.”
If you wonder why there was a need for a Prophetess Deborah in the Old Testament, look to the times that produced her. Women only come to leadership when men abandon their biblical headship. But when it comes to threats to little ones, both literally and spiritually, the women will rise up to the job if men refuse. What Mark Driscoll is doing with his degrading sex columns and videos that are all over the Internet is causing harm to ourselves and our children. I received this email this morning from a spiritual “little one.”
Dear Mrs. Schlueter,
I wanted to thank you so much for your latest post exposing the foul-mouthed “pastor” Mark Driscoll. I am an 18 year old Christian young woman who has struggled with pornography. You have no idea what reading and watching Mark Driscoll’s material did for my spiritual life. I was instantly reminded by my sinful flesh just how much I enjoyed my despicable sin, and was repeatedly tempted so strongly that I had to stop reading his article. I should have been able to find refuge in a godly pastor’s words, not even more temptation. I should be made to think of Holy Scripture, not of the perverted images that I have a hard enough time trying to keep out of my mind.
Thank you again for all you do, and God bless!
Because Driscoll is causing harm, I, Cathy Mickels and Deborah Dombrowskiand any other women who would like to join us, are speaking out. I am demanding a response from men like Dr. Erwin Lutzer who has refused to come out against this and who will be speaking with Driscoll at an upcoming conference. You can reach Dr. Lutzer through his assistant named Lori at Moody Church. The number is 312-943-0466 or 1.800.215.5001 . Here is a list of speakers who will be further legitimizing instead of rebuking Mr. Driscoll.
Because of the nature of the material Driscoll promotes, I will not link to his blog and videos here. A simple online search on Mr. Driscoll’s name along with the word “s-x” will provide more than enough documentation as to what he is doing if you choose to confront some of these speakers and leaders.
Rise up, men of God. Your women are having to shield the eyes of your children and take care of their own eyes and ears because not enough men will stand in the gap.
SEE ALSO:
Pulpit Magazine on Mark Driscoll and “Harsh Language”
Grunge Christianity? Counterculture’s Death-Spiral and the Vulgarization of the Gospel”
Who will be sharing the stage with John Piper?
John MacArthur on Mark Driscoll
John MacArthur on Mark Driscoll Part 2 – The Rape of Solomon’s Song
Christ Alone Wyoming 
I have been following this for a while. I haven’t necessarily dug in deep myself but I have watched a few youtubes of Driscoll and read every article on DEFCON and SLICE about Driscoll. I really need some clarification though. And this is not in Driscoll’s defense but I truly am concerned and want to know what is going on. So my question is what exactly has Driscoll said specifically that is causing so much controversy? Is it a specific series of sayings? Is it merely the topics that he has discussed? I really want to know exactly what he has said that is creating the stir. I have read every article about him and I haven’t seen anyone quote him or use a specific reference to something he has said inappropriate. I do read you guys and pray for the sites because I think you guys are a blessing. But I am still confused on why people are angry with Driscoll.
Now the Paul Tripp video I have to say I agree with everything that Paul Tripp said but it just seemed ridiculous that he had to vocalize foul language when a euphemism would have sufficed. So I get that. Please just some more specific help on what the problem is with Driscoll. The accusation is clear but I think the evidence could be presented with more clarity.
God Bless.
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Charoky~ this is from http://www.stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/
“An “Under 17 Requires Adult Permission” warning flashes before the video cuts to evening services at Mars Hill, where an anonymous audience member has just text-messaged a question to the screen onstage: “Pastor Mark, is masturbation a valid form of birth control?”
Driscoll doesn’t miss a beat: “I had one guy quote Ecclesiastes 9:10, which says, ‘Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might.’ ” The audience bursts out laughing.
‘For the record… this is not funny; it’s tragic’…from Steve Camp. Read the post in its entirety at http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2009/01/grudge-report-inaugural-post-todays.html
If you cannot glean from that the sexual innuendos, then God help you! Most fail to see the ‘wrong’ in this type of ‘preaching’ because they do not understand or grasp the attributes of God. He should be glorified in ALL we think, say, and do. To use cheap ‘sex jokes’ with the mentality of high school boys is not glorifying the Most High God. A great insightful study into the attributes of God can be downloaded at http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/resources/online_books.
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This statement is from an article on being “missional:” “George Peters notes, ‘If man is to be reached, he must be reached within his own culture.'”
Really? Really? MUST be reached? I stand subject to being corrected here if there are any Roman penal system historians out there, but I seriously doubt that the culture of the Philippian Jailor’s prison involved much singing and praying aloud to God. Escape plans, maybe. Establishment of prisoner hierarchies, maybe. Complaints of mistreatment and bad food, maybe. Pleas for release or the delivery of correspondence maybe. Riots and threats, maybe.
But praise-singing and praying? Probably not so much. It sure sounds like Paul and Silas took their Christian “culture” right into the prison, and the jailer and all his household were saved as a result. Somebody should have told him that he couldn’t be “reached” unless the Christians immersed themselves in the culture of the Roman prison first.
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While I agree with ministryaddict in not compromising the Gospel, my question for you would be what do you do with Paul in Acts 17.28 quoting Pagan writers instead of going to the OT? Is Paul compromising the Gospel by mixing in Pagan writers of the day with his sermon to the Athenians?
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Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
I cannot speak for others, but “what I would do” with this verse is read it in context. The Holy Ghost, speaking Words of Holy Scripture through the Apostle Paul, decides to quote from pagan writers. Neither George Peters nor Mark Driscoll are speaking divine Words of unadulterated God-revealed Truth, unless they are reading directly from the Bible. Hopefully we can agree that Mr. Driscoll’s sex jokes and Mr. Peters’s pronouncement about evangelical technique are not Apostolic-age divine revelation, especially since they are denounced elsewhere in Scripture.
The Holy Spirit, through Paul, in one or two isolated instances, refers the writings of worldly writers. This is a far cry from “man…MUST be reached in his own culture,” and from Mr. Driscoll’s apparent philosophy that marginal profanity is to be a key component in theological teaching or Gospel preaching.
In fact, if you keep reading, Paul obeys God’s command of Godly separation (not cultural immersion), when, a few verses later, he “… DEPARTED from among them.” (Acts 17:33)
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While I agree with not compromising any truth of Scripture, and not seeking first to fit it into the culture, are you possibly reading something into the verse “departed from them?” I would not interpret that as that he had nothing more to do with “the world” but rather that he physically left Athens to go elsewhere. Let’s not forget that our Lord and Savior was labeled a glutton and a drunkard. For what? For hanging out at parties.
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yawwwwwnnnnnn……….is this still being talked about? If only we put as much energy into our evangelism, pursuit of holiness and love for those that Christ loves as we do in arguing over unessential things like this. Driscoll is a big boy…..he can defend himself……I can’t believe people would doubt his being a Christian though. It’s splitting hairs and I have no doubt it’s not pleasing to God. Defend doctrine yes. Defend the things that are essential to salvation………but for the love of God (obv i say that in a Christian tone and not a curse) please stop this ongoing tirade. I recently read Piper’s biography of John Owen……….how many of his “Christian contemporaries” slated him and hurt him by their words. I see similar things today happening to Godly men. No one is beyond self examination and no one is beyond being exhorted to repent. I seem to recall the apostle Paul telling us to have nothing to do with needless quarrells.
“Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth”
So may I humbly submit that this nonsense is stopped and we move on and leave the issue. To me it is becoming foolish and stupid. TBH i’m more concerned with the growing influence of McClaren, Bell, Pagitt and Jones. We would do well to warn others about the fundamental flaws in their teaching instead of seeking to attack Driscoll, who teaches biblical truth.
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amen.
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I don’t think it would be possible to forget that Christ Jesus was labeled a glutton and a drunkard. Or that the Apostle Paul was made all things to all people so that by all means he might reach some. Or that people should judge not lest they be judged. Or that the Holy Spirit, through Paul, quoted some pagan prophets. These things are impossible to forget because they are the nearly-ubiquitous proof-texts used whenever people want to justify the mixing-in of something sinful with something that seems mostly good: i.e. a little profanity and few worldly sex references mixed in with popular preaching.
In much the same way, almost every church member who likes to indulge in social drinking knows the verse about “taking a little wine for thy stomach’s sake.”
And, while it might be boring to some, it is extremely edifying and even exciting for others to search the whole counsel of God, and find there that none of the above-cited texts overrule the clear commands of God:
“Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,” II Corinthians 6:19
“Abstain from all appearance of evil.” I Thessalonians 5:22
“Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:” I Corinthians 5:7
We can rest assured that when the Apostle Paul preached, some were converted and went with him. Some stayed there as part of a local church. Some rejected the Gospel. But when Paul “departed,” he not only physically left, but he left behind the ungodly ideas of the culture he was witnessing to, and went about his Lord’s business, imitating his Lord before him, Who went about His Father’s business during His time passing through the worldly culture of His days on earth.
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Ministryaddict~ AMEN!!
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I second that Amen to Ministryaddict!
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Once again ministryaddict has hit the nail on the head. While some may shrug and yawn and wink at sin let it be known that the King of Glory does not.
Frankly in the light of infallible scripture it’s appalling to me that so many professing Christians evidently possess such a cavalier and flippant attitude towards Driscoll’s unbroken and unrepentant patterns of sin and rebellion. Driscoll can (and does) wallow and revel in the flesh, even going so far as to make the Risen Lord Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son and Second Person of the Triune One True and Living God the object of homoerotic jesting from the pulpit, and yet amazingly instead of being soundly and roundly rebuked he receives the praise of men. Truly, truly the prophets are profane.
Of course the thieves and their accomplices would love nothing better than for everyone to just “shut up” and “move on” and quit making such a ruckus about their thieving, but we’ll have none of that here. Of such men Spurgeon well said:
A little plain-speaking would do a world of good just now. These gentlemen desire to be let alone. They want no noise raised. Of course thieves hate watch-dogs, and love darkness. It is time that somebody should spring his rattle, and call attention to the way in which God is being robbed of his glory, and man of his hope.
In Christ,
CD
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I thought it worthwhile to make mention of this from http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=29852
The article is entitled, ‘Driscoll’s vulgarity draws media attention’…
“Coarse language has no place in the pulpit,” said David Tolliver, executive director of the Missouri Baptist Convention.
“I am distressed to hear about what some misguided men call preaching,” Tolliver said. “Vulgarity has no place in the speech of Christians — certainly not in Christian preaching. How can Christian preachers expect to ‘speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the Gospel’ unless they vow never to ‘let any unwholesome word come out of [their] mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen’?”
“Pastors must commit themselves to engage the culture without endorsing it,” Tolliver added.
The last statement by Mr. Tolliver speaks volumes.
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Thanks for some injecting some God-centered perspective into the discussion, CD.
(And thanks for support, Lyn & Rose)
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I echo the sentiment of an earlier commenter who said, “if only we put as much emphasis into evangelism…”
I’ve only recently heard of Driscoll and don’t really have an opinion either way about him, but something that I thought I’d throw out there is that it is possible to present the gospel in a culturally specific way without jeopardizing one’s faithfulness to the Scripture. But first, I think that often times, us as Americans, as a friend of mine says, look at the Bible with “American googles” on. Whether we realize it or not, we look at the Bible as it was written for us in the USA and we read into the Bible our Christian traditions–those things that we do in America simply because we’re Christian and that’s what “Christians do”. [Sorry to those who may not be from America!] That being said…
As I said, we can present the Gospel in culturally relevant ways without being unfaithful and still being separated from the world. You see this a lot on the mission field in Europe. Many Americans go to Europe with their “American Christian” mindset and they fail. I know of a church plant inparticular that failed in France because they don’t conform a little to the culture [people in mission fields apparently don’t like it when you try to force your culture on them. Imagine how you’d feel if a Japanese missionary tried to make you less American and more Japanese.]. There is a missions organization that I’m well acquainted with that has many branches in Europe. None of them are doing quite so hot–except the one that’s here in Germany. The reason that it is doing well is because the leadership doesn’t have an American cultural mindset [Us Ami’s really got it goin’ on! Spread the American Christian Gospel guys!]. It allows some German customs and culture aspects into it’s work to better reach the German people. This includes going out to a biergarten and meeting the people where they’re at. I’m sure that missionaries with this organization wear traditional German liederhosen once in a while [very itchy]. They do this so they can be more culturally relevant and make the people want to hear what they have to say. They come down to the people instead of forcing the people to try and reach an unnatural level. [Isn’t that what Jesus did with us?] I guess a good way of putting it is that they remove all the barriers they can, that don’t go against God’s word, so that they can appear normal to the people where they’re at. When you’re more normal, it’s easier for people to see that certain something that’s special when you’re a follower of Christ. Otherwise, you’re just weird.
In doing this though, they’re not sinning. They still live in a way that is pleasing to God. They’re separated from the world in their lives, but not isolated! [Sometimes I feel the church in America tries to isolate itself so much that it actually becomes irrevelent.] I think that a similar method can be used to reach various subcultures as well and that is what Driscoll is attempting to accomplish by not being in a suit and tie and speaking in a more modern dialect. [Any vulgar speech is, naturally, unacceptable. I don’t know what words/phrases he may have said, but sometimes vulgarity is in the eye of the beholder. Many northerners cringe when us from the south say “y’all”–its not proper they say.]
I guess, sometimes we have a cookie cutter idea of what a Christian is supposed to act and be like. Perhaps we should ditch that cookie cutter.
I’m going to stop now because I’m rambling. I hope y’all understand what I’m trying to get at.
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Tom,
While you make some valid points, we have to remember the gospel was not meant to be made culturally relevant to any one generation, but spiritually life changing for all men. My fear is Mark tries to reach only the very young by his psuedo-hip ways.
People who try to imitate the people they’re trying to reach are often disrespected and looked down upon because they aren’t being real with the very folks who desperately to know how to recognize and to get out of their destructive lifestyles.
Jesus never resorted to that approach. While he moved freely among the common folk, He set the bar far higher for them than the then supposedly culturally relevant religious leaders of the day.
That’s what we need to do: Show them a different and better way, not just give them exactly what they’re used to.
There are certainly much more effective ways to show them how Jesus saves and improves lives than trying to impress them by sporting a “Jesus is My Homeboy” T-shirt.
God bless.
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This is true. The Gospel isn’t supposed to change to be more culturally relevant. I do think that there is some wiggle room as to how the Gospel is presented and church services are run [music for example]. It is up to each person to find the right combination.
But, imitating the world is going to work. As you said, the minister will get looked down upon. And will be uneffective in the long run because they’re really not showing the Christian life to be any different and people won’t grow spiritually.
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Tom,
Did you mean to say,
But, imitating the world is going to work
or
But, imitating the world is not going to work?
If you made a typo, the author of the post can correct it.
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The power to change a life lies in giving a clear presentation of the Gospel, not in the clothing of the messenger. The Spirit of God must lead; it isn’t necessary that we dress or talk the way the culture does to reach them. In so doing, we make the cross of Christ of no effect. The true Gospel message is offensive. We should never stoop to relevancy when speaking His truth. To do so will more than likely only produce a false convert.
There are too many who profess Christ, who have some sound theology, yet they are void of God’s Spirit. They lack the power of God within. They have ‘head knowledge’ but no regenerated heart. Time will tell if Driscoll is one of these. If he continues to drag the bedroom into the pulpit, he is drifting farther toward the danger zone. The word of God is for our spirit to feast upon, not for our sexual desires to lust upon. The message from the pulpit should be one that causes us to cry out for God to work more within our hearts, to praise Him for what He’s done, to break us over sin, to encourage and strengthen His people. It’s a message aimed at our spiritual growth and walk with Him, not our fleshy sexual desires.
I find it strange that when asked by a member of his congregation if masturbation was a form of birth control, Driscoll responds with a horrid twisting of God’s word from Ecclesiastes 9:10 {see my Jan. 18th post above}.
Instead of addressing this issue in a serious biblical manner, he makes a joke of it.
I do pray God will bring this to light in him.
The bible says to preach the word, in season and out of season…it doesn’t call for us to rely on our own strength. Instead, we must rely on the One who breaks hardened hearts and changes lives.
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Yes, I did mean to say ‘imitating the world will not work. Silly fingers got ahead of themselves.
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Tom,
I understood you the first time, but thanks for clarifying that.
I was interested in how you think the gospel could better reach unbelievers, without, of course, folks like Driscoll thinking they have go to such extremes to attract folks. His over emphasis on sex and other tiresome puesdo-cultural relevancy tactics are actually having the opposite effect on them, some younger non-believers in our area of Washington state are saying.
Some of them think it’s funny instead, and don’t take his message very seriously because of it. They say it’s sort of like having your elderly grandma suddenly dress up in a leather mini-skirt and boots, dye her hair and put on tons of make-up. Folks then wonder then ” What’s wrong with grandma?” So where’s the right balance in our presentation of the gospel message?
We are seeing a tremendous drop in church attendance in our area of the pacific northwest, even with folks like Driscoll taking over some of the bigger pulpits, and drawing crowds who want to see a sideshow along with the sermon. I hear this from my prayer partners all over the country.
We Christians have the most powerful life-changing message ever brought to man. I’m wondering why we are missing the mark in presenting it that way, and why churches are thinking they having to resort to cheap entertainment or other outlandish methods to get the job done. Younger unbelievers I talk to in my area want to have real answers, and trust me, they are quick to see through phony marketing methods.
Your thoughts?
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mbaker,
I was interested in how you think the gospel could better reach unbelievers, without, of course, folks like Driscoll thinking they have go to such extremes to attract folks. His over emphasis on sex and other tiresome puesdo-cultural relevancy tactics are actually having the opposite effect on them, some younger non-believers in our area of Washington state are saying.
The fact that Driscoll’s methods are turning off even non-believers should lead one to examine his methods in light of 1st Timothy 3:2-7–“A bishop then must be blameless…Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” In order to be an elder in the church, he must be well-regarded by even the wicked. For if the wicked look at a man who is in a position of authority in his church and see in that man no distinction from sinful men, he is not being the elder that the Scriptures call him to be.
This dovetails with what Lyn said a few comments ago: The Spirit of God must lead; it isn’t necessary that we dress or talk the way the culture does to reach them. In so doing, we make the cross of Christ of no effect.
And it does so in two ways:
1) It makes it seem as though the gospel of Jesus Christ isn’t enough, that we must somehow add some human touch to it to get people to “make Jesus lord” (which is quite an absurd idea anyway, since Jesus already is Lord [see Acts 2:36]). That we must somehow “help Jesus” win souls, much like the Romish system and the Mormon system teach that we must “help Christ” save us by our so-called “good works.” God does not need our “help” to win souls! He gives the Holy Spirit to draw a person to Christ–apart from any of our abominable “church growth” methods and vile human works (and words)! If He needs our “help”, then He is quite an impotent God indeed!
2) It makes it seem as though simply believing facts–apart from a changed life, a sanctified life, a life set apart to Christ and with no regard to what sinful men desire to hear–is enough to get our ticket stamped for the New Jerusalem Express. That we can just simply believe, without repenting from wickedness and evil speaking, and that is all we need to do. So that even if someone does believe rightly, their lives do not reflect a change, and their faith is no more than the demons’ faith (see James 2:19).
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Yes, Fourpointer, I agree those things should be a given in a life committed to Christ, and actually living out the the gospel as He did. However, it is rarely preached so forcefully.
I am concerned with the way so many churches I see handle the gospel with young folks, across all denominations. It’s like they feel they have to preach it differently. I’ve heard many more preachers than I believed possible, confront adults for their sin, call them to repentance in Christ, then turn around and completely downplay it with younger folks who don’t want to hear ‘rants’ as they call them. Instead it’s all about pizza and skating parties, and the like in youth outreach.
The soft sell gospel might entertain them briefly, but unfortunately it does nothing to save their souls or permanently change their lives by having their minds transformed and renewed in Christ.
Indeed it doesn’t give them a reason to know they need it!
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Indeed, and that is why so many young people graduate high skrool and go off to college and turn their back on the church–because they were never given a reason to believe anything they were taught (if they were indeed taught anything). It seems to me that many of today’s youth “pastors” are nothing more than guys that weren’t popular in high school, but now they have a chance to be “hip, cool, and relevant.” They don’t want to ruin a good thing, so they keep the message simple, and they dumb-down the gospel to nothing more than 4 spiritual laws and a 15-second prayer (and maybe even a page or two out of The Purpose-Driven Lie [not a typo]), they don’t ask much out of their new “buddies” (lest these “buddies” ostracize him again) and send these kids blissfully on their way toward destruction.
What the church needs are men who are not afraid to lay the truth down without worrying about hurting these kids’ “feelings” and show them what it really means to follow Christ.
PS–off-topic, but does anybody’s church still sing songs from Don Moen?
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@mbaker: The presentation of the Gospel shouldn’t change. It’s timeless and doesn’t change. This goes for it’s presentation to young people too. One shouldn’t say that it’s okay to have sex, as a type of bargain, to get someone to accept the Gospel. The message doesn’t change nor should our standards. And if the unbelievers can’t tell us apart from them, there is a problem and that needs to be rectified.
When I say that we should make it “relevant to the culture”, I’m thinking more of the over all church service. I know of many people that won’t go to church because it’s too old. Adding things geared toward younger people–who’d make up the next generation–such as a guitar and percussion instead of old school hymns [at least some of the time] isn’t a bad thing and in fact may be beneficial because you can attract people who previously thought that Christianity was only for our “seasoned citizens”. In the church setting, we need to guage the area around us to better reach them. But, we need to make sure that what we’re doing in our ministry isn’t detracting from the Gospel or making us a “sideshow”. If we catch wind that it is, we need to scrap it and try something else. Everything that we do needs to honor God. I remember a message I heard once while in college where a Pastor said something like, we need to find that right balance of being “normal” and being different because, if we’re too normal no one will listen, there’s no need to change. On the other side of the coin, it might not be good to be Ned Flanders either. The unsaved need to see that there is something different about us, something that they can’t put their finger on.
At the Bible College that I went to, we took a class in Youth ministry and our teacher showed us some statistics that I thought were interesting. One was that most of the teenagers in America are willing and want to talk about spiritual things [something like 82% I think] and that those kids who go to church wished, and longed for, their youth pastors wouldn’t dumb things down because they were really eager to learn. My school also told us before we started the summer camp to not dumb things down because the kids will know it and they won’t respect you anymore. Thought that I’d share that.
It’s not just younger people but adults, too. The Mormon church gets most of it’s converts out of the “mainstream” Christian churches, espeically the Baptist church. It seems that in churches today, many pastors/teachers it seems aren’t teaching anything to anyone. They just want to be inclusive and make everyone feel good [I think it’s the ear tickling mentioned before the end], seemingly. They boast about this and they say that many of their new converts convert because, “the Mormons know their stuff! I never learned anything at my old church!”
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I don’t know who Don Moen is. I went to watch the video and part way through it, it became unavailable. Kinda funny.
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Tom,
Thanks. We seem to agree. Although I am a ‘seasoned citizen’ as you so kindly put it, (we actually refer to ourselves as seasoned salt) I agree that we needn’t be so horribly stuffy about the music, but courageous in our unflinching presentation of the gospel.
Four pointer.
I love Don Moen’s music. Great music and touching melodies, and lyrics to match. I miss that kind of music. Most of the contemperary soft styles seems to have sameness about it. It’s easy to sing but not particularly uplifting.
Give Thanks and Shout to the Lord, and Hiding Place are a few of my favorites., both melodically and lyrically. Gosh, I miss that music, it deeply touched my heart.
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Oh and Tom, and whoever, I should also tell you I’m a ‘seasoned citizen’ not just in the ways of cultural relevance, or deep theological knowledge through seminary training, but a Christian seasoned by life. Not making out myself to be elitist or anything, but I finally know what works and what doesn’t.
Four pointer,
I’ve always believed you can tell a lot about a lot about a person by the music they like. I have a lot of favorite Christian songs, but anyone who wants to know where I come from can find it in one of my favorite contemperary Christian songs: ‘Breathe’. Very simple lyrics , but then isn’t the gospel?
After two major heart attacks and chronic asthma that song is pretty relevant to me. Mark Driscoll’s identidity stuff may seem to be so, but isn’t in the long run. It’s just hanging in there, no matter what and believing in Jesus is. He’s the only reason I’ve even survived thus far.
God bless.
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That picture, is MY old band. I quit that band because I couldn’t stand the fact we were “christian” but yet our lifestyles didn’t reflect it. Weird how my old band always ends up all over these things.
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A very good and helpful sermon concerning temptation is “Improper Lust” by the Puritan preacher John Flavel.
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I know you wrote this ages ago, has your views changed since then? I find the way Marc Driscoll talks about difficult things really helpful in exposing my own sin…… I don’t find it makes me ‘stumble’ or anything. His teachings have totally helped me, and I think would help a lot of people who are sinning in sexual ways…. because he doesn’t condone these sins but talks about repentance…..
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