In this audio debate James White takes on Gail Riplinger on the topic of King James Onlyism. This classic debate is under an hour long and I highly recommend it to those struggling with the opinion of whether or not any other English translation of the Bible can be trusted.
James White also exposes the errors in Riplinger’s book New Age Bible Versions in which she attempts to push the KJV as the only acceptable English translation of the Bible by using some shady means.
See also: Bible Translation Comparison Chart
Christ Alone Wyoming 
Listened to the audio.
For the first 7 years I was a Christian, I used the King James. For the last 20 years I have used the New King James.
I haven’t suffered from the switch.
My question is, if you don’t use the King James, will you go to hell because of it?
I’ve yet to have that question answered.
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No, you won’t, doreen. One is not saved or damned based on which Bible translation one uses. We are saved by Christ and Christ ALONE. My personal suggestion (& I don’t mean to come across as condescending) is that you read John 3:3-8,16-18 & 1st Thessalonians 5:9. I mean, those are just a few verses which deal with Salvation through Christ ALONE.
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It’s obvious that a Bible translation isn’t the way to salvation.
But the way the King James Onlyists go on, you’d think it was.
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I’ve been fond of KJV for years but I’ve been shocked and amused at various arguments from rabid KJV fanatics about why it alone is God’s Word and all other translations are the work of the devil.
I’ve recently moved over to ESV, recognizing that it is not perfect, either. But the Word of God, rightly translated, is able to save, by His Spirit. I do believe this leaves “The Message” outside the conversation.
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I read her book “New Age Versions of the Bible” and while I am not a KJV only fanatic, she had some good points about some of the translations. I would hold to a broader view than her about which translations are “safe” but nonetheless it was an interesting read.
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People are dying and going to hell, and what are we doing? Arguing over bible translations! How the Lord must be grieved over his ‘church’, how He must be angered over time wasted on debating the KJV against all others; time that could be spent giving the good news to lost sinners, or time that could be spent in prayer for family, friends, this nation. Some have made an idol out of the KJV, which is sin.
God gives discernment to His people, those who belong to Him will be given His wisdom by His Spirit. I personally prefer the NKJV, does that mean I am destined for hell? Hardly!! I am saved by His grace, cleansed by the blood of Christ and kept by the power of God, sealed with His Spirit until the day of redemption…none of which is based on a translation of the bible I read.
May we all learn to be good stewards of time, for it is short, precious, and should not be wasted arguing amongst ourselves.
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Eh, lyn… I’m not sure where (at whom) your anger is directed.
I concur that some people can become highly ‘gnat-straining’ when it comes to which translation they love. You are also correct in saying that Christians have considerable flexibility when it comes to choosing whether they prefer a paraphrase versus a word-for-word… or even learning Greek and Hebrew and reading the text directly.
That being said, there are some just plain awful paraphrase ‘Bibles’ out there (the Message screams to mind).
There are also many terrible ‘target’ ‘Bibles’ on the market as well. Some target teens (they read like a hybrid between ‘Oprahnity’ and a sex-laden ‘romance’ novel)… some target homosexuals, some target feminists… some simply re-write Scripture accounts completely, and then throw in new ‘character’ names (such as the ‘Good as New Bible’, with Peter re-named ‘Rocky’) to make the offense complete.
Now, I would consider the purpose of having Christians debate and discuss Bible versions as follows:
1) It is often a good idea to have several translations available at one time (like a parallel Bible), so that the reader can, perhaps, re-capture some of the richness of the Hebrew or Greek that is lost when translating Scripture into a language as shallow as English. This reduces the risk of choosing the WRONG translation of a particular word, if the reader uses a translation dictionary.
2) It seems like a good idea for Christians to review new Bible versions as they become available, to determine their merit… and to share that information amongst believers.
3) New Christians can benefit greatly from such ‘reviews’ when seeking a Bible version for themselves.
4) Last but not least, it is important to show that not only are the pushers of bad paraphrase ‘Bible’ versions in error, but so are those in the militant KJV-only camp.
My opinion (which is all I have) is that these reasons alone are enough to merit keeping the discussions (and debates) alive.
I consider the discussions concerning Bible versions akin to ensuring each soldier has the right fit of armor… It is part of equipping the saints for battle.
My $0.02,
– Jeff H
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Hey, if the KJV was good enough for the apostle Paul, then it’s good enough for us!
[/sarcasm]
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Silly KJV onlyinists……
On the street I come across them a little. They loved to evangelize for the KJV. And often speak much more of that Bible than they do the LORD.
I know two men – who I do not doubt are born again but they are really caught up in that silly notion that it is inerrant. When you show them translational errors all you hear is “refined seven times”. 🙂
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I use the ESV for both reading and teaching.
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Jeff H. , My anger is directed at the KJV only types. This should never have to even be debated. I don’t mean to sound too harsh, but I have read across the blogosphere those who insist the KJV is the only true ‘version’ of God’s word. They make an idol out of their translation and go to great lengths to defend their view. Time then must be taken by men such as Dr. White to set straight these fanatics.
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Hi lyn,
Ah! O.K. got it.
I misunderstood you to mean that thorough discussions concerning Bible versions were without merit.
Thank you for clearing that up… I’m a little slow sometimes.
🙂
I agree that the militant KJV-onlyists (to the wholesale exclusion of other versions) are in error.
In fact, the 1611 AV is barely readable at all!
– Jeff H
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Ah, yes, the Riplinger makes an appearance here. This is the same person whose scholarly credentials comes from two degrees in Home Economics and an honorary doctorate from Hyles-Anderson College (a hyper-fundamentalist super-legalistic college in northern Indiana). Also, the same person who stated that she wrote the book with her name as “G.A. Riplinger” because “it stands for “God And Riplinger!”
Here is the link for an interesting article by James White for more information on this woman who has erred grossly by building huge straw-men in order to try and prove a point. Hey, at least it gained her some kudos amongst the hyper-fundy crowd.
____________________________________________________________________________
Fourpointer,
And if there is ANY doubt about why Christians should use ONLY the KJV, then they should remember the foul-mouthed preacher from Florida who insists that if the KJV is compared to the original manuscripts, then the final say must be found in the KJV and NOT the originals. The man in question is none other than Peter Ruckmann.
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Dr. White makes a VERY legitimate point which I agree with 100%: “The KJV Only controversy is, in reality, a non-issue when compared with the serious challenges that face the Christian Church today.”
King James Version onlyism is CLEARLY legalism, because it adds on to the fact that we’re justified by grace through faith alone. Those who are KJV onlyists may as well say, “we’re justified by grace through faith alone, PLUS AND PROVIDED that you use the KJV.”
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I only use and teach from the KJV, but I hate being called a KJVOnlyite, a Riplingerite, or a Druckmanite, or any other -ite I can think of. I don’t agree with their positions, but I simply believe, after MUCH study, that it’s the best translation for English-speaking people.
(And, no, I’m not one of those people who say, “If it was good enough for Paul and the Apostles, it’s good enough for me.”)
I suppose there must be quite a few people out there who love their KJV more than the Lord, but I happen to have encountered more people who will call you all sorts of bad names if you gently try to pry away their camo-colored, mini-sized NIV “study” Bible, and calmly explain what “thee” and “thy” mean.
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DP,
I had heard about Ruckman but never knew him by name. One of my pastors had told me about a guy that interprets the Greek according to the KJV. Must be him.
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Ministry Addict,
I do not think there is anything wrong with holding to a position that states “I believe it is the best translation for English-speaking people.” This is a different set of people normally than those who say that the “KJV is the ONLY translation for English-speaking people.” The issue is with those who normally from a large lack of scholarly work and an equally large degree of ignorance speak forth from the latter before wisely using the former!
Also, I believe that to hold to such position as you do would require that we define WHICH English-speaking people. In some places around the world, the translation work of the missionary might be superior to that of the KJV in places where “English” is spoken such as in Africa.
************************
For more on Peter Ruckman, this link on Wikipedia is a good start if you have plenty of time to waste.
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If you listen to Ms Riplinger she resorts to ad-hominem attacks in the debates, and her books she uses numerology to prove the KJV is the only good Bible translation.
James White’s book “The King James only controversy” explanes most away the KJV’s arguments.
Doctrines like : the deity of Christ , Justification are the ones to stand and fight for.
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The requirement to become Christian does not rest on learning a 1600’s english dialect. So we must never put that burden on someone.
A good MODERN translation will certainly bring more people to Christ than having them lost in ancient dialect confusion.
And really…if you want to get really down to it, learn hebrew, aramaic and greek. But to claim ENGLISH is superior or on par is simply absurd.
http://dysfunctionalparrot.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/king-james-only/
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DysfunctionalParrot,
If you are going to claim:
on your blog, may I respectfully suggest that you might want to clean up your language a little.
Stuff like:
…and even:
…are not really appropriate ways to express yourself as a Christian. Remember, the Bible says that you are an ambassador for Christ.
One can be witty, even sarcastic, but we are admonished in Scripture to not be ‘potty-mouths’.
In Jesus,
– Jeff H
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Thanks for the tip. And my language is perfectly fine, thank you.
When nobody is watching I’ll bet you let a few even better ones fly!
Anyways, EXCUSE ME for stopping by. Yeesh.
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DysfunctionalParrot,
You’re welcome.
You really think so? Is your speech God-honoring? Remember, you claimed to be a Christian on your blog site. Coarse speech is prohibited in Scripture.
29 “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.” (Ephesians 4:29)
9 “With it [our tongues] we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.” (James 3:9)
God calls Christians to be set apart from the world in all areas, including language.
Before I was saved: ABSOLUTELY!
Now that I’m saved, I look back at my speech and I wince!!!
It’s o.k. to let grievous sin convict you… It leads to repentance.
Are you above correction?
My fellow Christians have a duty to rebuke me, hold me accountable, and correct me… They are doing so out of LOVE for me AND out of obedience to our Savior.
We hold each other accountable.
Who is ‘Yeesh’? Are you making a substitute for the Name of our Savior, in order to use His Name as a swear word?
Did you know that using the Name of the Lord that way is called blasphemy? God forbids doing so in the 10 Commandments.
See how easy the habit becomes?
And if soap helps, use it.
In Christ,
– Jeff H
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Sooo…what you’re trying to say is you love my site? 🙂
Wow, you must be a hoot to have around!
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Hey DysfunctionalParrot,
BTW what version of the Bible do you use?
– Jeff H
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Ah! A RELEVANT question that does not critique my moral character!
Currently, I am enjoying my newly acquired ESV, although I enjoy the NIV, NASB, and NKJV. The New Living has good flow for the Psalms, but is hardly worthwhile otherwise. I am also currently learning Hebrew.
The King James might as well be written in Chinese as far as I can use it. I never grew up learning good-ol-baptist “Christianese” and feel no need to waste time doing so.
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Strangely, DP, I once was scolded by a fellow Christian for using the word, “piss.” He must have thought it unfitting of a believer. Little did he know, I picked up that word from a KING JAMES BIBLE. Yes, I actually got into the habit of using a bad word by reading the Bible.
Even so, I’ve made an attempt at getting that word out of my vocabulary…and I switched translations. I, personally, have learned not to place too much concern on whether people use course language, but as for myself, I would love to be able to say that I would put aside my own course language if it offends a brother.
I would love to say it, but I haven’t been too successful at it.
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M. Patterson: I hear ya! But I would argue that “freaking” and “damned” are pretty light-weight contenders!
Having grown up in a rural setting where boots are commonly called s@#!kickers, I fail to see why anyone gets all offended by such insignificant language.
Guess it depends on your social upbringing. I was raised by wolves.
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M Patterson
Could you please tell me where that word is in the King James Bible. We are representatives of Jesus Christ and as such do wholesome words come out of our mouth, is our behavior above reproach? Even little children know what a bad word is.
Dysfunctional Parrot, what makes you think Jeff H must let a few good ones fly when no-one is around. Is that because you do and you think all Christians must do this also. Our Heavenly Father is always around and watching and listening, and He always knows what is going on. We are never alone to let bad language fly. Beside that would be hypocrisy
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Everyone’s a hypocrite. It’s part of being human. I’ve just been around long enough to see that those who cry the loudest are often those who can’t hold up to their own standard. I am merely accusing Jeff of being human. Throw yourself in there too! I could use the company!
Anyways…we WERE trying to discuss something relevant ( Bible translations ). Parrot is not pleased!
BTW: 2 Kings 18:27 will be what you’re looking for. No mistaking what the verse says that’s for sure!
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DysfunctionalParrot,
Actually, the standard is JESUS.
And, no, I cannot ‘hold up to’ His standard. It is perfection.
The Greek word hamartano literally means, “to miss the mark.”
I “miss the mark.”
That being said, I also do not try to see ‘how close to the mark’ I can get without crossing the line on the sin side. Why not just strive for holiness, DysfunctionalParrot, and accept (receive) godly correction?
Yup. I’ve come across that passage myself in the KJV when I read that version… It’s actually there a few times.
It used to be an appropriate and acceptable way to refer to male offspring.
Now… not so much.
Would YOU refer to your son that way?
…when talking to your wife?
…when talking to your other children?
…when talking to your mother?
…when talking to your your son’s teacher (maybe even in his Kindergarten class)?
…when talking to your Pastor?
…when talking to God?
In Christ,
– Jeff
p.s. I like the ESV Bible version as well.
🙂
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Doesn’t bother me at all. Guess I just came from a different wolf pack.
Like I said, we’re not talking about F-bombs here. But to flog someone for using such insignificant words…well, all I can say is get off your pious soapbox.
Are we done with this silly topic yet? I mean, I can bring out a bunch of other character traits of mine you’re sure to dislike as well if that’s what we want to discuss.
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Surely you are above correction.
Do you consider biblical correction as stipulated in the Bible “silly”?
Ah, yes, the victim.
In Christ,
– Jeff H
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I’m not above biblical correction. I’m above YOUR perception of proper Christian living. I see it different than you, and do not share YOUR convictions.
Trust me, my in-laws are die-hard old school Baptists. They are so uptight you could use their butts to make diamonds out of coal. I love em, but all they can do is point out flaws in others while thinking Jesus must have been a suit-and-tie wearing Baptist…just like THEM.
I think you’d like them.
Anyways, to them my language is fine. And if you’re more uptight than them, well…what can I do? It is what it is.
And I was kidding about bringing out more of my flaws. I sat for a while and honestly couldn’t come up with any. My wife, kids ( even my MOM!!! ) say I’m as good as it gets! And who am I to disagree? Take your word over MOM’s??…pfft!! As if!
In short, I’ve learned to be cautious about pointing out other peoples “specks in the eye”. Correction is fine, just don’t think of yourself as the “example” to live by. Because you’re not.
And don’t give me the cop-out “be like Jesus” line…as if to imply you’re more on track than me, because you’re not.
Final word is yours. The horse isn’t getting up no matter how hard we beat it. It’s been a slice, but I have my own site to take care of…
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Is that the way you think I view myself?
This is me:
I am the dog who returns to its vomit, and the sow that is washed goes back to its wallowing in the mud… but for the grace of God.
I am a filthy and unclean thing, that has been washed by the blood of the Lamb… My flesh, however is still wretched.
I am wicked by nature, make no mistake.
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I personally love ESV and the Amplified BIble – one for readibility and travel use, and the other for more of a word study.
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Some would say the only “God-inspired texts” are the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts and not the translations derived from the manuscripts. The question is, “Which manuscripts do you believe to be inspired and is the translation you are reading rendered accordingly?” There are basically three manuscripts your translation was made from: 1)The Evangelical – originating in Antioch- English translation is KJV 2)The Catholic – originating in Rome – English translation NASV 3)The Critical – originating in Alexandria – English translation NKJV, ESV, NIV. Mat5:18 – …Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. IICorin2:17 – For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God… IIPet3:15-16 – …as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you… which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Gen3:1 – Now the serpent was more subtl than any beast of the field which the LORD God made. And he said unto the woman, yea, hath God said…? Christians know their enemy is the devil, it just seems we underestimate him.
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You’ve touched upon an extremely interesting, competitive, and often overlooked subject in your comment, wam3. Here’s an article where one textual camp engages another in a scholarly, brotherly manner. Enjoy!
In Him,
CD
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I’m not King James Only…but
Christians need to know who is behind the modern “translations” of the scriptures.
Westcott and Hort were Jesuits who were also occultist friends of Helena Blavatsky (The founder of Theosophy).
It is also VERY important to know that Westcott and Hort’s translation was the basis for the watchtower’s “new world translation”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Testament_in_the_Original_Greek#Other_editions_of_Greek_New_Testament
The following link contains some KJO material but also important background on these two vile Jesuits.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/heretics_behind_modern_versions.htm
While I do believe that one could be saved by reading a mis-translation, I also believe that ones walk and growth subsequent to salvation could be seriously hobbled by the same mis-translation.
But if you want to remain a “weaker brethren”, have at it.
PS: I read the NKJV which is attacked by KJO fanatics just as the other modern english translations. Nevertheless, The NKJV does have some SERIOUS translation issues. For example:
KJV Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject ;
NKJV Titus 3:10 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
While the KJV instructs believer to reject heretics, the NKJV could be construed to reject those who are exposing heresy.
Do heretics use the above verse to cast out “divisive” “troublemakers” that would dare to expose the unfruitful works of darkness in their midst?
Absolutely.
Here are some other translations that twist Titus 3:10:
ASV Titus 3:10 A factious man after a first and second admonition refuse;
NIV Titus 3:10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.
GNT Titus 3:10 10 Give at least two warnings to those who cause divisions, and then have nothing more to do with them.
NAS Titus 3:10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
NCV Titus 3:10 10 After a first and second warning, avoid someone who causes arguments.
RSV Titus 3:10 As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him,
NRSV Titus 3:10 10 After a first and second admonition, have nothing more to do with anyone who causes divisions,
YLT Titus 3:10 A sectarian man, after a first and second admonition be rejecting,
TNIV Titus 3:10 Warn divisive people once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.
I think that the above give a good example but there are more.
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Heretick (KJV)
1. fitted or able to take or choose a thing
2. schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine
3. heretic
Factious (NASB)
1. fitted or able to take or choose a thing
2. schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine
3. heretic
People need to be able to dig for the truth in Scripture. The main reason is most of us have no conception what certain words mean. Plus many words have different meanings and can convey differing ideas to the reader and the reader must make efforts to find out what was being said. I use this illustration all the time and it fits here as well.
Rom. 12.2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
The word transformed means transfigure as Christ was transfigured in Matt. 17.2 and Mark 9.2. It means a metamorphosis. The word renewing actually means to renovate. Renewing your mind or renovating it? Which holds a stronger meaning to you?
We need to do three things as far as I am concerned: Have a reliable version to study (I use the KJV, but am open to reading others as long as they can be called ‘reliable’), use a Concordance to dig out the original meaning and most importantly submit to the Holy Spirit to guide and teach you how you ought to be taught (1 Cor. 2.13).
God is well able to preserve His truth even if His Bible is polluted. If all the versions of the earth are ‘reworked’ and humanistic dogma strangles out any truth from its pages, God will still uphold His Holy Word in His way for His glory.
A Lot of info here and I think we as Christians need to learn to dig and pray for God’s truth. Otherwise, ay sort of half truth can be sold to us.
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After reading some of the responces here I think some of you need to take a history lesson. Seeing where the gnostic writers lead the church of the anti-christ through the dark ages and the murders that took place. No wonder Paul was able to write, This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
And then this; Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Those who are his will diligently seek out Gods truths and not be lead by the wills of men.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
a falling away646
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee’-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): – falling away, forsake.
There are many…take heed…becuse if you haven’t noticed there are many!
Was it true that King James outlawed the Geneva bible the predecessor of the King James translation and of the reformation? Why?
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After reading Unprofitable’s comment, and looking at the evidence of his/her words, all I can gather is that they must be KJVO. To use a website like jesus-is-savior.com is just flat out crazy. David Stewart is way out there in left field. He even attacks people like John MacArthur and Paul Washer over things like the Lordship of Christ (which Stewart denies) and repentance (which Stewart denies). Also, I’d be careful in using wikipedia also as a source since that information is allowed to be changed by anyone.
I like to use the KJV but I also use the NKJV, ESV, NASB, The Geneva Bible, and The Wycliffe New Testament. (Guess that makes me a weaker brother too). Besides, the KJV is not without its errors too.
Lets look at Jude 25:
Jude 25 (KJV): To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Jude 25 (ESV): to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 25 (NASB): to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Someone care to tell me what’s missing? (Kudos to those who can get it).
How about here in the 12th chapter of Acts?
Acts 12:3-4 (ESV): and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. This was during the days of Unleavened Bread. And when he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him over to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out to the people.
Acts 12:3-4 (NASB): When he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also Now it was during the days of Unleavened Bread. When he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out before the people.
Acts 12:3-4 (KJV): And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
Anyone care to point out the difference between the ESV/NASB with the KJV? I’ll give you a hint, it has to do with a holiday.
There is much more that I could point out. I am not anti-KJV. I like to use it as a translation. I just find the KJV-only position to be unfruitful and very much full of heresy. To say that you are not KJVO and then use the KJVO position on translations is beyond crazy.
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revivalandreformation,
Thats the thing though, most people just read their Bibles and fail to study the meaning of the words.
The top level meaning of the word heretic as you noted is “fitted or able to take or choose a thing”
So heresy, in its “purest” form, is “choosing” to follow a false doctrine of man over the whole council of God.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/hairetikos.html
As Jesus so pointedly noted:
Mark 7:9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
When people choose traditional false doctrine, the inevitable conclusion of the matter is to reject Gods commandments.
Having a concordance is the number two most important book to aquire after a reliable translation of the Word.
Bible Study Tools has a free Strongs online for those who can’t afford the printed version.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/strongs-exhaustive-concordance/
_____________________________________________________________________
David T,
No, I’m not KJO, I just used that link to show Westcott and Hort were Jesuit occultists and that their “translation” was used for most English versions of the Bible after is was released.
And yes, jesus-is-savior.com has a LOT of crazy stuff on it. The expose` on Westcott and Hort is accurate though. Thats not the only place that has info on them but was the quickest to find. Test all things.
I’m a him by the way.
And yes, the Acts 12 reference to “Easter” is a glaring twist-translation of the following:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pascha.html
An interesting thing to note about the KJV is that King James was a “free”mason and the KJV is literally filled with references to masonry. The chapter/verse numbering scheme is also used in their lodges for their nefarious numerology purposes.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/k1002.cfm
So again, I’m not KJO… although I do tend to favor it over modern translations because it is in most instances more accurate to the original Greek.
PS: I also don’t take everything cuttingedge.org says as gospel although they do have some interesting information not found anywhere else.
Test all things by the Word of God.
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David T,
No, I’m not KJO, I just used that link to show Westcott and Hort were Jesuit occultists and that their “translation” was used for most English versions of the Bible after is was released.
And yes, jesus-is-savior.com has a LOT of crazy stuff on it. The expose` on Westcott and Hort is accurate though. Thats not the only place that has info on them but was the quickest to find. Test all things.
I’m a him by the way.
And yes, the Acts 12 reference to “Easter” is a glaring twist-translation of the following:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pascha.html
An interesting thing to note about the KJV is that King James was a “free”mason and the KJV is literally filled with references to masonry. The chapter/verse numbering scheme is also used in their lodges for their nefarious numerology purposes.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/k1002.cfm
So again, I’m not KJO… although I do tend to favor it over modern translations because it is in most instances more accurate to the original Greek.
PS: I also don’t take everything cuttingedge.org says as gospel although they do have some interesting information not found anywhere else.
Test all things by the Word of God.
David T,
No, I’m not KJO, I just used that link to show Westcott and Hort were Jesuit occultists and that their “translation” was used for most English versions of the Bible after is was released.
And yes, jesus-is-savior.com has a LOT of crazy stuff on it. The expose` on Westcott and Hort is accurate though. Thats not the only place that has info on them but was the quickest to find. Test all things.
I’m a him by the way.
And yes, the Acts 12 reference to “Easter” is a glaring twist-translation of the following:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pascha.html
An interesting thing to note about the KJV is that King James was a “free”mason and the KJV is literally filled with references to masonry. The chapter/verse numbering scheme is also used in their lodges for their nefarious numerology purposes.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/k1002.cfm
So again, I’m not KJO… although I do tend to favor it over modern translations because it is in most instances more accurate to the original Greek.
PS: I also don’t take everything cuttingedge.org says as gospel although they do have some interesting information not found anywhere else.
Test all things by the Word of God.
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My apology to you Unprofitable for jumping to conclusions and accusing you of being something you are not.
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There’s a great deal of misinformation and outright lies (both in print and online) regarding Bible versions, mss evidences, whose behind what, who is associated with whom, etc. It is paramount that the Christian study this thoroughly, and without prejudice. Truth is not found in hearsay, nor preponderance of opinion, nor force of argument, nor mere reason and logic.
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David T,
Apology accepted and I TOTALLY understand how you could reach that conclusion with my posting of that link.
I try to be careful with references but sometimes its hard to find sites that are 100% free of error that have interesting historical information on people like Westcott and Hort and King James.
DavidW,
Yes, there is much disinfo out there.
But I do accept the history I’ve read about Westcott and Hort being Jesuits and occultists along with visible proof such as photocopies of the 1611 KJV being filled with masonic imagry.
It’s also very strange that Charles Tase Russel would choose Westcott and Horts manuscript over ones that existed for well over a thousand years dont you think?
Also, the masons and rosicrucians were without doubt responsible for changing Passover to Easter in Acts 12 of the KJV as they have no problem with occult celebrations such as Easter.
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Some additional references:
This guy does a poor job defending Westcott and Hort:
http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2006/05/were-b.html
He even notes that Westcott and Hort were members of secret societies but excuses their membership.
I would be remiss to not include C.I. Scofield and his KJV “reference bible” in this discussion.
His background is equally as troubling as Westcott and Horts. Ties to Zionists, masons, illuminists, Westcott and Hort (not surprising) and even the vatican.
I concluded long ago that just as KJO is error, so are most modern translations of the Bible after 1881. Thats why I always refer to the original Hebrew and Greek with hard sayings or hard to understand verses.
——————————————————————————————————–
A shocking tidbit I heard a while ago (can’t remember exactly where) inferred that non-English speaking people need to learn English and read the KJV.
Extreme KJO’s reject not only other English translations but all foreign language versions as well.
As noted above, they believe the KJV is more accurate than the original Hebrew and Greek.
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Last night I went looking around for what I could find about the usage of Easter in Acts 12 and found this if you have a spare hour or so.
The Translation of Easter
I found a printed version also: http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_02.asp
He’s KJO and I seriously disagree with his thinking on “christ”-mass starting at 47:50. You would think as much study as he put into this, he would have done the same with “christ”-mass.
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UnprofitableServant,
Actually, Jack Chick is a militant KJO advocate. He does NOT state the facts except in a light that he is comfortable with, and his ministry has refused to be disassociated with liars and false teachers such as Alberto Rivera (so-called Roman Catholic priest). All would be well warned against the use or endorsement of Chick Publications. Chick is also very much antagonistic against the doctrines of grace, and is extreme in his Arminian viewpoint to include the use of altar calls and emotional coercion to bring about a “profession of faith.” Chick’s study is greatly flawed in a number of areas and is biased based on his own personal interpretations.
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Hi Desert Pastor,
I heard about the controversy with Alberto Rivera and looked into both sides. Still not convinced either way on that specific issue.
I never really studied Chicks errors but I recall reading “This was your Life” over 30 years ago. That was probably the first time I heard about hell fire from anyone and I had been to a so-called Bible believing church without hearing the gospel as far as I can recall.
I would have to say that the Lord used it in spite of Chick.
As far as Arminianism vs Calvanism goes I’m still not convinced either are 100% right.
I know the Word has all the answers though if we take the time to search.
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I could be in error, but I don’t believe Westcott and Hort have dittely-squat to do with any modern translation anymore. They’ve since been replaced by a much broader manuscript base.
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DysfunctionalParrot:
Really long story, but essentially what W & H did between 1850 and 1881 is bring back into a position of “credibility” or “respectability” what had long been discarded by the church at large, i.e.: texts containing glaringly Arian influences (Codices B, Aleph, and their family). They also brought in the “oldest is best” argument (an entirely naive and faulted premise) which is still influential among textual critics today. Indeed their very methods of textual criticism place the Holy Scriptures on par with any other literary work, rejecting the testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the ages (and the Holy Spirit’s divinely gifted discernment as to authenticity) removing God from the equation altogether and placing Biblical analysis strictly in the hands of men (specifically men of their ilk) and their analytical inventions. Their eclectic Greek (relying heavily on Arian texts) has been a major influence in the Nestle-Aland text which is still in use today. Their influence is still very active in modern translation procedures today.
There’s a whole lot more to the story, and there’s a lot more to this than meets the eye, which is why Christians really need to study this, and not just naively think that all Bible translations (or all MSS, for that matter) are equally valid and accurate.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Testament_in_the_Original_Greek#Reception
“All critical editions published after Westcott and Hort were closest to their text with only one exception (von Soden).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Testament_in_the_Original_Greek#Other_editions_of_Greek_New_Testament
“The text of Nestle-Aland, and the texts of Bover and Merk, differs very little from the text of the Westcott-Hort.”
The only major Bible to be published since 1881 that uses the Textus Receptus as it’s basis is the NKJV. All others use Westcott and Horts manuscript or two others that are very similar to theirs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bible_verses_not_included_in_modern_translations
Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations#Complete_Bibles
**********
The NKJV is close to the original Hebrew and Greek although there are some errors.
For serious study, a KJV, a NKJV and a concordance is very good.
Another nice version is the King James Easy Reading Edition which is basically a KJV with all old English words updated to modern English. There were no other changes.
http://www.swordbible.org/
E-Sword is a free, downloadable KJV + Strongs Concordance with optional downloads available so you can study various translations side by side.
http://www.e-sword.net/
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I am relatively new to this whole ‘which version is accurate and which isn’t’ debate. David W, you seem to know quite a bit about all this, which version would you recommend for someone who wants an accurate version to study and learn with? As I said above, I study with the KJV and NASB along with the Concordance, but I always want to remain as accurate as possible, so if you could enlighten me regarding this or anyone else, I would appreciate it.
Thank you,
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Thank you for this. Throughout my studies, I have gotten used to using the KJV. But putting that aside, I want to be accurate so thank you for this suggestion US, will look into it.
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Glad to help my brother.
Be blessed.
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I just downloaded the e-sword and it looks pretty extensive. Thanks for this, it will keep me going for a while.
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For diligent study, as far as English translations go, I also recommend the KJV (I can just hear the gasps now). I believe it is a solid translation, based upon the methods used by the scholars involved, as well as where they themselves stood spiritually, the texts they used, as well as the testimony of God’s people over the ages regarding the underlying texts. Though the archaic English takes some getting used to today, and some definitions of certain words have been changed and altered over time (which is why we should use it along with a Strong’s Concordance (as you do), at least the verses and phrases are there (as opposed to most of the modern versions which have verses and phrases missing, most of which can be traced back to W & H’s texts). The NKJV, though close to the KJV, is not as accurate. To get into SPECIFIC word arguments among the versions is to miss the forest for the trees.
I also do quote from the ESV, the NKJV, and the NASB in so far as they are true to the Greek and Hebrew, and since most just aren’t comfortable with the King’s English. But then, the Hebrew and Greek should have supremacy over EVERY English translation (even the KJV). Which brings us to the more critical question: which Hebrew and Greek should we refer to? I prefer the Masoretic text over the Septuagint (online arguments to the contrary exemplify what I mentioned earlier about there being a lot of misinformation on the subject). And I prefer the Byzantine text (in the majority agreement), certainly over the Alexandrian or variants combining both.
Ultimately, you must study this all out for yourself, r&r. In the process keep in mind that behind every “scholar” is a revealing story as to where they stand with Christ (and without Christ, they have neither truth, nor do they have the minimum required to discern His word). And concerning which is the most accurate Scripture we have today, all factors must be taken into consideration: not just the empirical, but the testimony of the true followers of Christ.
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I have used the E-Sword program for a long time and really enjoy it. Another program worth obtaining is Power Bible.
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And again, thank you for all this info. I myself have studied and found that the Masoretic MS are the most accurate. I have a photocopy of one of the tablets in the back of my Bible. I have no problem with the KJV’s language, but I have used it for so long, so I should be used to it. I have found so much underneath the surface in the Greek and Hebrew that it blows my mind how anyone could ever study the Bible and not use a Concordance. This site: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/ is invaluable to me. It has concordances, commentaries, lexicons, and other resources that make my studies very profitable. I block the ads with AdBlockPlus from Firefox so they aren’t an issue. They do have some questionable teachers in their pastor’s resources area, but I just ignore those. Until I find another tool that ranks as high on the list as this…
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When I was a child, just about everybody at my church used the KJV, but there were quite a few with the ASV – only one or two with the RSV. Good News for Modern Man exploded on the scene when I was in High School, and I personally was struck by its freshness, but within a few months noticed its more-interpretative slant – though it did serve the purpose of rekindling my interest in God’s Word. However, my first year in college the NASB entered my world and became my nearly-exclusive version for about a decade. It and the KJV remain my favorites, and that includes the NASBu, as well.
I own so many versions now, and use the NASB (or u), the KJV, NKJV, ASV and ESV most. Sometimes I use a facsimile of the KJV-1611. So all my favorites are in the KJ family. Just because the KJV was translated directly from Moses’ tablets in 1611 – or whatever the Onliests claim – that only covers at most, the Pentateuch (okay, perhaps that was a bit flippant).
The only version that really matters is the one written in your heart and that you attempt to live in your life; if a KJVOist is obnoxious or rude about his belief (if you tell me I’m going to hell for using any other then I consider you both those things), then perhaps he needs to read it more often with some intent other than for comparison purposes, is my take on the issue.
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First I speak only for myself, no one else. I used the NIV for years and loved it. My Bible is so marked up it is embarrassing & pages are coming out. I had to hold it together to study it. Never having heard of Gail Lipsinger, I just kept feeling as if I needed to google bibles. I firmly believe it was the Holy Spirit.So when I did I saw her picture with the UTube arrow, so I clicked on. I heard enough to check out my beloved NIV and compare it with my KJV. I was totally shocked that verses & words were completely omitted from my NIV that were in my KJV. It upset me a great deal so I went to Revelation 22: 18&19. It upset me to the point I threw my NIV in the trash. I do not believe God put one word in His Holy Bible just to fill in space. there are other places that He tells us what will happen to us if we take anything out or add to His Word. For me, I feel now that I know there has been plenty omitted that if I continue to use it I am guilty also. I speak ONLY for myself.
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“It upset me to the point I threw my NIV in the trash.”
KJV is not much better. All he did was take earlier works such as Geneva (the peoples Bible) and make slight changes to turn the body of Christ that are all brethren into a gentile lordship / papal hybrid. He turned the leading of under-sheppards (older brothers) into that of nicolatians (ceo’s / kings).
When my kids are older I will probably go Geneva 100%.
In Christ -Jim
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Been a kjb believer for 10yrs, met hunreds of others, none worship it, none have been harmed by it. Some, like me would be dead physically or spiritually without it. Most believed it before hearing of riplinger or ruckman. Kjb believing people, pastors and missionaries are the most faithful and productive Christians ive ever seen. Ive knocked on 10s of thousands of doors, the following is not opinion. People who argue the most, cause division, and do nothing biblical(acts 20:20]for Christ are calvinists. Unfaithful worldly Christians have something in common. They pick their favorite translation instead of using the one God has used for EVERY English revival. Christianity is not about picking favorites its about obeying the truth. There’s a few crackpots in every circle, but most kjb Bible Believers are sincere, spiritual, wise, soul winners, thousands are ruining their bodies for Christ on the mission field and many die there. They don’t want to fight about translations, they want to preach the gospel from a book not corrupted by EGYPT, the devil started that fight, we had unity under the kjb for 200yrs under one book. Philadelphia was its fruit. God is not the author of the confusion started by Westcott and Hort and others who corrupt the word of God. The new Bibles are to blame for the strife, divisions, not the kjb believers. We were here first. No one has proven an error in our precious Bible. Why should we put down the book that has won so many to Christ, called so many to preach, and filled us with so much light? Glory praise and honour to the Lamb that was slain for his gift to man kind, the miracle of the King James Bible. Where the word of a king is there is power. Every country, province and state has been affected by its life changing power. May the gospel found in the AV deliver millions more! Desire the (one)SINCERE milk of the word. We are not as MANY who corrupt the word of God….
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“Been a kjb believer for 10yrs”.
All hail your great ‘god’ King James…
Seriously, you are completely delusional, like a roman catholic.
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thane, if you are a serious student of the Word, I would ask you these questions.
Do you use the 1611 in your personal study and Bible reading?
Does your church use the 1611 for all of its teaching and preaching?
What was in use before the 1611?
Do you know the history of the 1611 version?
I am looking for researched answers here, not the parroting back of stuff you have heard yelled or hollered from the pulpit in a vain claim to what should have been expository ministry of the Word.
I have been in the ministry for just over 20 years as a pastor and a missionary in Europe and West Africa. I also hold to the doctrines of grace, as have hundreds of other missionaries and pastors such as Spurgeon, William Carey, Adoniram Judson, and others. Your thoughts do not reveal the truth of what is being done for Christ. By the way, do you have even one book by Spurgeon or do you like the missionary biographies of many who have died as missionaries on a foreign field? If you do, you better check their theology and see why they truly went to the far-flung reaches of the world in order to share the truth of God’s Word.
Better yet, you may not want to do that because it may just change what you think you believe.
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