**** – Note from Mark — This post was written and meant to be an encouragement to the believers. It has gone far off track from that with the comment thread; therefore, I am shutting down the comments here. ****
There are times that I think God underestimates how much I can take in this life. The strength I used to think I had has disappeared, and now it is time to lean on Him. But, when I think about it, that is what I’ve been doing all along. Sometimes He just needs to remind me that I am weak, but He is strong.
The fact is that God does know how much we can take but He also knows how much He can carry, and that is immensely more than we can imagine. If you are His child, He will stretch you as much as He has to in order to bring you into a deeper relationship with Him.
This is something I struggle with, but I am learning to sing from the heart:
I surrender all! I surrender all!
ALL to Thee, my blessed Savior
I surrender all!
Surrender is not something that comes overnight, but it is something we must learn as we walk with our Savior and pray to please Him. We can’t pick and choose what we want to surrender and what we want to keep. Jesus gave everything for us. How can we give any less to Him?
Christ Alone Wyoming 
Amen, I can attest to this over and over. Praise be to God
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Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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None of us surrenders all. That hymn is a wretched bit of sentimental tripe.
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That hymn is sentimental tripe because it’s full of self, declaring what the human does rather than what the Savior has done. And just as no mortal can love God completely as the commandments requires, no mortal surrenders all. Songs that praise the creature for doing – especially when the doing is not possible for the creature – are damaging to the souls of the saints because they take our focus off Christ Jesus.
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Your question doesn’t offend me, Finnegan; it makes me wonder about you all the more. No Christian is totally depraved nor depraved, period. Natural man is depraved in his total being. No mortal man is able to totally love God or surrendered all to Him. That would take perfection, which no mortal has. If you need me to supply “proof texts” for those answers, we are unable to communicate.
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Brothers,
Christ Himself said, “Any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple.” Luke 14:33 The man who wrote this hymn wrote it in the same manner as many hymns were written in mid-to-late 1800’s and even early 1900’s. It is of interest to me that the evangelist who wrote this actually spent time working directly with Wilbur Chapman, who was of a much more reformed persuasion.
I have no doubt that there are believers who have sung this hymn, including myself, who have sung it NOT with the belief that there is a complete and total surrender. It is more of a desire and prayer that we long to surrender all to Christ and follow the commands of Christ to His disciples.
Manfred, I found the very last part of the last verse to be of great interest, “O the joy of full salvation! Glory, glory, to His Name!” That actually does sound like a poignant reminder of what it means to allow Christ to have control of our lives and is a praise of the Most High, not ourselves. This is not normally a verse that I have heard.
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Mark, Jesus also told us to be perfect. These are but two commands in Scripture that mortal man CANNOT do. The point of these commands is not to have think we can or do fulfill them (that interpretation is what put John Wesley on his perfectionism bent), it is to drive us to rely on Christ and not ourselves.
In the age to come we will not have this problem.
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Some would be content to sing, I surrender 10 percent.
Manfred I agree that it is delusional to impute 100% surrender to yourself. so should we sing these words at all?
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Miller – I would not sing the lyrics of this song; it’s a self-centered celebration of something no mortal can do. It has no focus on the Savior, other a “hat-tip.”
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Your responses reveal a baffling lack of comprehension. I have NEVER described any Christian as totally depraved or even merely depraved. I made that clear in this thread, earlier. I’ve also stated that NO mortal – even the redeemed – are able to surrender ALL or love God with ALL. No mortal is capable of such perfection. I am not sure I can explain that truth any simpler.
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Ought we practice a bit of pragmatism to these high callings? Who can really be as holy as Christ? Who could in all honesty consider themselves worthy to partake in communion, based upon self effort.? Who could really say they meet the high standards of leadership? (narcissists could but such pride is a disqualifier, thus we have Matt. 23: 1-11) To think we have met them is to say that we are without sin. To say that we are without sin makes God a liar, and the truth is not in us. Yet we need leaders and we need to obey Christ’s command to participate in the remembrance love feast. Practical sanctification is a life long process toward a desired goal. This has been called the glorious dissatisfaction of our pilgrimage. We may be able to meet or beat all other personal goals but never ever do we even come close to being fully conformed to the image of Christ in our fallen tabernacles.
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Brothers, I think Finnegan has identified himself as either a troll or someone with a massive chip on his shoulder.
Correct me if I am wrong Manfred, but I believe you are saying, “Being saved by the grace of God alone, me and my sinful man are incapable of surrendering all. We are in the process of becoming more and more like Christ and once the sinful man is no more, we will be able to surrender all. But for now, we struggle and lean on an ever-loving and ever-patient God who understands our frailty.”?
It seems Finnegan you are (excuse the expression) hell-bent on causing an argument instead of coming at this with love and patience. I’ll probably get roasted for this (as usual), but I figured a fresh perspective was in order.
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There are two mains camps of theology within Christianity in America today: Arminianism and Calvinism. Calvinism is a system of biblical interpretation taught by John Calvin. Calvin lived in France in the 1500’s at the time of Martin Luther who sparked the Reformation.
The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God’s word. It focuses on God’s sovereignty, stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence, to do whatever He desires with His creation. It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual where he is then able and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation.
Arminianism, on the other hand, maintains that God predestined, but not in an absolute sense. Rather, He looked into the future to see who would pick him and then He chose them. Jesus died for all peoples’ sins who have ever lived and ever will live, not just the Christians. Each person is the one who decides if he wants to be saved or not. And finally, it is possible to lose your salvation (some arminians believe you cannot lose your salvation).
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.
Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, “In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?” The answer is, “He cannot. Therefore God must predestine.”
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many’; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that “it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy”; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out,” (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
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Fin-again
Total depravity is a term to refer to the realities of the fall wherein every aspect of mankind has been tainted. Adam and Eve were created good without taint but their offspring were conceived in their corrupted tainted state.
When it comes to salvation there are only 2 possible groups, the boasters in self and the non-boasters in self. Unconditionally election via irresistible grace would be the non-boasters in self. Why do election rejecters say that they responded to the same gospel that so many others rejected. Is it not due to the illusion that some untainted personal goodness in themselves?
I can write for days without end as to why I should not have been chosen based upon my depraved sin nature. Conversely I can think of nothing to say concerning either deserving it or maintaining my election.
I can say with confidence that I do fit the following descriptions
Jesus came for those dead in their sins and trespasses the sick the blind the foolish the weak the despised and the lost. that is my sole resume.
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Good Morning Finnegan,
Being contentious and candid can get us in trouble sometimes, and I have offended many in the cause of being forward and truthful.
I apologize for my comments when I accused you of being a troll and having a chip on your shoulder. Can we agree to stay within the bounds of Christian love and patience then? Nothing is ever accomplished through insults and bull-headedness. We need to stay loving, understanding, patient and graceful in our interactions with others and this is an area where I lack tremendously.
First and foremost, I am a Christian, saved by the work of Christ and the grace of God. Period. The basis and foundation of Calvinism is biblical. I am not going to get into the off-shoots and twistings of scriptures that give Christianity a bad name. I am here only to discuss TULIP and how it lines up with Scripture.
***********Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
All mankind is tainted with the sin and curse of Adam. Whether we are talking about imputed sin or original sin, we are sinful, doomed for damnation unless God intervenes.
Copied from above: “The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveals human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, “In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?” The answer is, “He cannot. Therefore God must predestine.””
All one has to do is talk to a dying man, and you will see the rank rebellion in full bloom. He will refuse to have anything to do with God and will most times refuse to even listen. I have such a neighbor who is dying of pancreatic cancer. I have approached him three times, and now he will call the police if I approach him again. We used to be such good friends, but now since he has received this sentence, his nature, demeanor and attitude toward me has changed. He hates God and thinks that his Catholic religion will be good enough to get him into heaven. My dad has told be to butt out and refuses to hear anything about salvation at all. I make it my practice to stick to salvation and do not allow myself to deviate into “intellectual discussion or clever tools” in order to make head-way. If he won’t listen to the Gospel, then he won’t listen at all.
Man is sick with sin and as I said, unless God intervenes, all mankind is doomed.
********************Unconditional Election
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21). We are also told in Eph 2. 9 that salvation is a gift from God. Why? So no man will ever have grounds to boast or brag. God saves, not because of the man, but in spite of the man.
God chooses, not man.
***********************Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Hopefully I do not need to expand on this. God chooses whom He will save and chooses whom He will damn. It’s His choice and we read that those who are chosen have been so even before the foundations of the world were laid. This is a hard pill to swallow for prideful man.
*****************************Irresistible Grace
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that “it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy”; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out,” (John 6:37).
Can man resist God? If you want to read a really good book on this subject is the Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink. Who’s on the throne? God or man? If God is sovereign then He must be absolutely sovereign or He’s not sovereign. God cannot be mostly sovereign. If man has the power to resist God, then man is obviously more powerful than God. It stands to reason.
An oft-neglected verse can be found in Isaiah 45. 7: I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’
God creates good and evil. God causes disasters and abortion, and is in control of ISIS and the homosexual movement. God has every person and every thing on a leash and He controls what they do and how they do it. Proverbs is full of these types of verses. One such chapter is Prov. 16. Our actions, words and thoughts are controlled by the sovereignty of God for His purposes alone. Taking all of this into account, can we say that man has the power to resist God when He decides it’s time for that soul to be saved?
**********************Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
This idea ties in with the above comment on Irresistible Grace. Man has no power to say no to God, anymore than he has the power to lose or give up his own salvation. Has there ever been a soul, once saved that was willing and able to give up that blessed gift of salvation after God, in His mercy and grace saved him and rescued him out of his sin and damnation? Absolutely not!
When we hear of so called Christians converting to Islam, we know that they are either false converts (Catholics perhaps) or they were worn down to the point where they don’t realize what they are saying. Once God saves and seals a soul, he is saved and sealed forever.
I truly hope you can agree with all of this, Finnegan. May God be glorified for any eyes that are opened to the truth of the Gospel here.
Blessings in Christ’s name.
Paul
***I live because one Man loved. I’m loved because one Man died!***
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Paul well said, well said. I could not possible reply to fin-again better.
Perhaps you could add a discourse concerning the asity of God
Why He and therefore his every choice and action is and must be utterly non-contingent
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Well thank you for the compliment. Being a “lay-person”, I had to look up what you were asking me…here’s my best shot.
From Steve Lawson:
The Asity of God
Asity, Latin Word – “Out of Self or Self realignment, – being,
existence in oneself
Only God has being in him self
o We have being from God and in God
God alone is independent
Herman Bavenick: Absolute Essence – The primary attribute
of God, there is nothing above him
God is self-sufficient, self-sustaining and self-satisfied
He is the source of all that is
God is life, He possesses all life and is the giver of all life (no
matter physical or spiritual)
God was always God, without beginning
The asity of God is connected to the eternality of God
At no point, God did not exist
God is the uncreated creator
A. W. Pink, Book suggestion, Attributes of God
I think this is well explained and to improve upon it, would probably dilute it.
Does God need us? Does God have to explain His actions to us? Do I have to explain to the drinking glass why I am filling it with said beverage? Isa. 45 and Romans 9 both tell us that we, as His creatures, His property have no right whatsoever to question His motives. This includes everything in our lives. Whether we cry out and ask why, when God takes a 2 year old girl’s life, or why God allows Planned Parenthood to continue with their modern day worship of Moloch, we have no right to ask anything. Our sole responsibility is to submit with joy.
The problem with humanity and it’s been the same problem since Adam and Eve, is we seem to have the notion that we deserve an explanation from God. Think of the arrogance it takes to assume that the sovereign God of the universe needs our permission and feedback?
God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. He will also damn whomever He chooses to. Yes, Romans 9 shows us quite clearly that he has created two types of people in this world. Those who are destined for salvation and those who are destined for hell. We do not know a person’s elected destiny so we preach the Gospel to everyone. Once a soul is saved, he knows he is saved and will continue in fellowship with God forever.
TULIP is a perfect explanation of the love, election, grace and mercy of God. It is also a perfect explanation of the severity of God. Imagine being one of those who is born to be damned?
God will do as He pleases, when He pleases and to whom He pleases and He will have glory in His decisions. That’s all that matters, isn’t it? That God is glorified and that He receive reward for His punishment.
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Thanks Paul and TIM.
Also, thank you Manfred. I appreciate your post on the Baptist “distinctives.” It is a fresh take from the usual acrostic, which I am sure you are familiar with.
We do not always have to agree with one another on every doctrinal point. Sometimes our disagreements and disavowals stem from misunderstandings or presuppositions (which is a terribly strong thing to overcome). However, Christian discourse must always be conducted with an irenic spirit. We can disagree, but we must disagree agreeably.
For too long, I have become disenchanted (turned off) by the tone which this blog has been “hijacked.” Let us return to the place where we keep our comments civil.
It was without any joy, as I recall the line of repeated questioning on the reformed doctrine of soteriology. One man asked questions with intention to bait, but the questions given and extensive explanations were ignored. You have lost your audience for the “readers” you claim to represent with your prosecutorial approach.
None of us will arrive at full knowledge. A spirit of humility will make one pause to consider the possibility that we are wrong. If we are right, be patient and circumspect, as others have to go through their own journey and travails of receiving, learning and accepting fuller truth.
This is a reformed blog. If we cannot agree despite the answers given, the best thing to do is to leave and visit elsewhere.
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Jeremy – thank you for your kind words. That post is an extract of the book I have written and am getting ready for publication.
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Finnegan, thank you for your candid response. You have asked many questions, may ask a few from you?
Firstly, do you believe Jesus is Lord? If so, please define what this means.
Also, do you believe God is sovereign? If so, please define what this means.
The Bible is replete with verses that speak about the sovereignty of God. Prov. 16, Isa. 45, Romans 9, just to name a few. Can a “Christian” be a Christian and not believe and submit to the sovereignty of God? No. It is impossible to saved by the sovereign grace and justice of God and not believe in his sovereignty. It’s a contradiction in terms.
Prov. 16
1 The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.
33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.
Here are four verses, only four that prove without a shadow of a doubt that God is sovereign.
We read in Revelations four times that God declares Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.
We also read in Col. that, 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Please define the role Christ plays in the universe. Please define the role that God plays in salvation. You seem confused and defensive. I am not insulting you, bear this in mind, I am merely concerned.
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Jeremy, good to hear from you again, brother. Trust all is well with you. One of the comments that stood out to me was regarding the “hijacking” of the blog. There have been far too many uncivil comments of late. Commenters can be right in their position, but if the disposition is wrong, then the position becomes wrong.
Anybody who has spent time at this blog should have a pretty good idea of where I stand on many different issues and where this blog has come, especially in recent years. I have made no bones about the fact that I do not see “reformed” and “Baptist” as being synonymous. I do not call myself reformed, although I do hold to the doctrines of grace. I do not label myself as a “Calvinist” even unless I have the time and the inclination to clearly delineate where I stand on each point of doctrine.
However, that is not the point of this blog. It is to defend truth and contend for the faith. Faith has been called by many names and has been held to by many godly saints of old, who did not even agree with each other on various points. Some at times, even had major differences, but still fellowshiped and worshiped as fellow believers recognizing that God alone is sovereign. In the end, He alone has all the answers and knows the full truth.
I hope that I do not have to shut off comments to some of these blogs, but if that is what it takes to get things back in line then that is what I will do. I hope and pray that each of our readers will take note of this comment in particular. If there is no Christ-likeness or a desire to be like Christ in the comments being left, they and you will be deleted.
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“…but even if the whole word believed in Calvin’s reformed Theology, it would not cancel out God’s GRACE.”
Calvinism does not cancel out God’s Grace. Grace is one of the foundational aspects of Calvinism.
Your use of the words imposed and forced seem to imply a negative imposition as part of God’s Salvation Plan. God does not force nor impose upon those whom He elects for salvation. Would one who has received such a gift ever feel that he had been imposed upon or forced? The reactions of those who are brought to salvation are not indignant for having God force them when their will wanted to continue in sin but are such of gratefulness for His Mercy. You seem to insinuate that those of us who believe in God’s election are being violated or dare I say, raped? Can I give you a fair definition of free will? It means:
Full Definition of free will
1
: voluntary choice or decision
2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
So who’s sovereign now? You believe you have the power and ability to make any and all decisions and God cannot interfere? That’s scary, to be honest. This seals the fact that you believe you are sovereign and God is your lackey.
1 Tim 2 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.
Don’t you see? Christ was a mediator for us in so much that He gave His life for us and acted as a go-between for us. He ratified and sealed the covenant between us and God through His death.
“Let’s say that you are right and that salvation by ELECTION is the sovereign WILL of God and that HE has predestined me for ELECTION UNCONDITIONALLY i.e. regardless of what I believe….”
Rev. 13 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
God, through His sovereign power, sealed those whom Christ would die for even before the earth was created. The fact and reality of Christ’s death was written into God’s book of history for mankind, before mankind was even a reality. This is as plain as the nose on your face, Finnegan.
Romans 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Those God has chosen via election to be saved He will reveal through the Holy Spirit the Truths in Scripture. When one says “regardless of what I believe” then one could believe in Islam and still because he was “elected” he would be saved…..NO. He teaches you the Truths of Scripture and His Word is clear on the fruits that will be evident for those He calls His Own.
Honestly, Finnegan…I think you need to leave this forum and really do some “soul-searching” if you will. You are deceived and your pride has blinded you. I have met so many so called Christians just like you that believe in free will and believe God is there for their selfish purposes. One cannot come to any other conclusion here. Those who submit to the sovereignty of God know full well that they have no power to resist God.
I remember one time someone on my blog said this: Free will? Only if God allows.
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Sin, debt and trespasses are used interchangeably. One sin Adams sin our Federal head put all of humanity, save Christ, in debt to God for our sins. This debt must be paid. It must be paid in full. This is the very reason for the existence of hell. God’s love demands holy righteous justice for every sin for every sinner. It is unjust to allow anyone with an unpaid debt into heaven. It would be unjust to allow any whose debt has been paid in full by Christ to be sent to hell.
It is unjust for my lender to receive payment beyond my legal debt. What is paid is paid. what is canceled is canceled. No matter how much I demand that my lender receive any further payment they would be in sin to accept it. They would be in sin to toss me into debtors prison for a debt that no longer exists in any manner shape or form. If a generous benefactor pays my debt the debt no longer exists. If I were to protest to the lender that I never gave my benefactor permission to pay my debt legally lawfully it no longer exists, period. This is a very simple legal equation.
Jesus our benefactor paid off and canceled all sin debt in full and nailed it to the cross 2000 years ago without my permission. The Father receive this payment in full 2000 years ago. This was also done without either my knowing or my permission. I merely became aware of this reality when I was called by the Father and was sent by the Father to His son who received me and will never loose me. I was made aware of this under the conviction of the Holy spirit. He alone enabled me see the truth that set me free. He enabled me see my sin to repent of my sin to become adopted to be allowed to become a child of God. My God rejecting fallen free will my heart of stone was replaced with a regenerated free will with a circumcised heart of flesh.
God has a free will yet He cannot choose to sin. His will is compatible with His nature. My will is not greater than His. Until being touched by the Holy spirit my inability to desire God was compatible with my fallen nature.
If it is true that in reality Jesus paid the debt for the entire world the entire world would have no debt to pay on the day of judgment. Not everyone goes to heaven. therefore everyone’s debt was not canceled 2000 years ago when Jesus declared, ” It is finished”.
To send a former debtor to hell whose debt was canceled would be unjust. It is demanding double payment for the same debt. The Father receiving Christ’s payment 2000 years ago cannot require additional debt payment through damnation on the day of judgment.
God is not contingent. God work all things according to His will. His will to receive Christ’s payment for my debt 2000 years is in no ways constrained by my imaginary greater all mighty permission. That is self exaltation akin to the idolatry we read about in Ezek. 28. It is works righteous boasting. It is another gospel.
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Well said T.I., I really believe that once someone has tasted the gift of salvation, they never look at life the same again. The appreciation and wonder I felt when God saved me back in 2009, I can still remember, as if it happened yesterday. When I think about how God chose me, when He could have easily chosen someone else, and damned me to hell, literally, I just weep. Even now, I well up with appreciation and thankfulness.
I know full well, that Christ died for me. He died for me in particular and I will always be thankful for His love and sacrifice.
When so called Christians fight so hard against holding onto their free will, it speaks volumes regarding their heart. I know full well that God saved me and I had nothing to do with it whatsoever.
How could I, a puny, sin-riddled man contribute anything to my salvation except my sin? I use the illustration that I was nothing more than a worm, slimy and disgusting, wriggling around in the manure pile of my sin, and Christ Jesus, all pure and holy, reached down into that manure pile and picked me up and saved me from it all.
He didn’t have to, but He did. All I can do know is tell others about what He did for me, live a life of thankfulness and know that He has done it all.
Thank God we as His children don’t have to do anything to hold onto our salvation. There’s nothing we can do to lose it, and there’s nothing we can do to gain it. Imagine being a JW, or a Mormon or even a Pentecostal, Prosperity/Word of faith believing church-goer who believes they have to do something in order to keep themselves saved and holy in God’s eyes? What a burden!
Thank God that Christ did it all, and nothing can ever undo what he has done!
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If you cannot read my/our answers in the above comments, then you are either blind or illiterate. You have not bothered (obviously) to read the scriptures posted and refuse to even take into consideration that you might be wrong.
Sorry…nothing short of a miracle will help you see the truth.
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Whew…okay Finnegan, I see the problem now. Your problem lies with Calvinism and anything that falls under such a label has to be unbiblical.
Let’s take away Calvin and his teachings for a time and lets focus on God and His scriptures.
I won’t use the acronym TULIP, I promise, but use scripture to prove that TULIP is scriptural. Are you able to bear it?
Are we totally depraved? Are we totally beyond help unless God saves us? What does Scripture say about humanity? Our hearts are completely wicked. The wrath of God abides on us who aren’t saved. The unregenerate are called children of wrath. And so on.
Where TULIP uses the term unconditional election, it means that God doesn’t elect anyone based on anything in themselves. He doesn’t save you because you are good, handsome or intelligent. He saves you because it brings Him pleasure and glory. THIS is what UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION means.
To deny the fact that only a few are chosen is to deny the Scriptures. I won’t go into the scriptures yet again, because they are all there and there’s many I haven’t even copied here. Jesus died for the sins of many…not all, and we must understand that because God is sovereign, He has absolute power over His creation and does as he sees fit. Some are created as vessels of wrath and some are created as vessels of glory. Surely you must see this?
I hope you don’t have a problem with irresistible grace? Can man reject God’s gift of salvation? Can man override God’s sovereignty? God gives man the ability to repent, trust and believe. We are told that God gives man the gift of faith. Jesus said that God gave man the power to become children of God. It’s God all the way not man. Romans 9, says it’s not through man’s striving, works or running to accomplish a goal, but as God decides to give. To deny this is to deny scripture.
I don’t see anything to do with the preservation of the saints in our comments back and forth, so I won’t spend time on this. As God saves, so He keeps. Those who are elected are kept safe, those who are damned are damned forever.
Surely Finnegan, you have to appeal to scripture here and submit to its truth. These aren’t my words. This is scripture that I have copied and pasted here. I didn’t write the Bible, just referred to it. Hope you can see this and the light of truth can start shining through the darkness.
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