It was the spring of 2006 and I kept seeing Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses going door to door throughout the neighborhoods of my community. It got me thinking: What are the local Christian Churches doing to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to combat the spread of false doctrine in our community? Additionally I pondered about what I could personally do.
I then came across the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry website (www.CARM.org). They had a downloadable cult warning flyer. Eureka! This was exactly what I didn’t know I was looking for and exactly what we needed here in my town. I quickly went to work on my own version of a flyer and several months later, the new flyer was birthed.
Now, in the spring of 2008, I have updated and produced the second version of the cult flyer and am now offering it for you to download for free to distribute in your neighborhood.
Flyer: Who’s Really Knocking at Your Door?
For those who prefer a more professional look, a brother in the Lord from Australia produced a professional version of the flyer for me to make available to all of you. You can download it here.
Christ Alone Wyoming 
Well, I really know where to begin. I read your flier and although it does contain some truth, many of your pronouncements of “Mormon Doctrine” are merely the speculations of early Mormon leaders, not doctrine of the LDS Church.
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many of your pronouncements of “Mormon Doctrine” are merely the speculations of early Mormon leaders, not doctrine of the LDS Church.
Of course, this depends on which day of the week it is, and who they’re talking to.
No, actually, almost all of what is in there is official Mormon doctrine, although there are some Mormons who don’t believe some of those things.
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I know that is how you would like to paint it and I understand why. Personally, I think your flier is inaccurate and bias but I don’t fault you at all for believing what you wrote. I’d just hope anyone that reads it doesn’t base their opinion solely on what you have written, that would be a mistake.
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Jay,
Perhaps you can show us which information in the flier is not accurate?
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It would be a very long post. Much of what you have written I would say is based on what one or two people have said on a subject. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Mormon theology. It takes more than a single member’s (Apostle,Prophet or lay) written opinion in a newspaper to call something doctrine.
You state that the Book of Mormon has undergone 3,913 changes since originally published (I don’t know the exact number but that sounds about right). However, you neglect to inform the reader that the vast majority of those changes were simple grammatical errors. There are very few changes that could be considered changes of doctrine. One which I have seen that is the most credible criticism of changes, is in Nephi where the original seems to support the idea of the Trinity, but the “updated” BOM is changed to support the last description of the 1st vision Joseph Smith gave (i.e. God and Christ distinct beings seperate from each other).
I also noticed that many of your more outrageous claims of Mormon beliefs came from The Seer. I acknowledge that what you say may actually be written in The Seer, but Mormons never have considered The Seer canonized scripture and were never bound by its teachings. Using it to “prove” Mormons teach (present tense) these outlandish things is silly, when they were never doctrine in the first place but someones misguided opinion.
Likewise the majority of your other references (e.g. Journal of Discourses, Doctrines of Salvation, Mormon Doctrine) are highly controversial (to say the least) even among LDS members, who don’t even believe many of the things you allude to. To somehow imply that they reflect what is taught in the Church is misleading as most members do not abide by their teachings and consider them in error. Much for this reason they are have never been included as official Church instructional material.
If you want to write a convincing flier for informed people, I would stick to canonized literature of the LDS Church and teaching manuals. I don’t think that all your criticisms are unfounded but a more balanced approach would serve to truly inform people instead of spreading gossip.
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Jay,
Actually, the fact that there were almost 4,000 changes to the BOM is significant. One of the arguments the LDS have always made–in fact, one of the core doctrines taught by Joseph Smith, found in the BOM, and still taught to this day–is that many things were taken out of the Bible (Those “truths that are plain and most precious”). Yet Mormons will stand on the BOM even though so many changes were made to it.
Another reason this is so important is that the BOM was supposedly written word-for-word when God showed the words to Joseph Smith, and the word would not disappear until it was written correctly. Now, if Joseph Smith (or, rather, his scribe, whether Martin Harris or Oliver Cowdery) wrote every word correctly as God showed it to Him, does that mean God does not know grammar? This link has a good breakdown of the many changes, complete with a table mapping out many of the changes.
To be honest with you, I have found nearly all of these teachings (with the possible exception of “blood atonement”, which is, however, still carried out by many LDS splinter groups) in official LDS church materials such as Gospel Principles, Preach My Gospel, Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood, Gospel Doctrine, D&C Student Manual and many others. Also, many doctrines have been preached and taught by Mormon prophets for so long that while they may not be “canonized” or formulated in any “official” material, they have been taught for so long that even many Mormons believe them to be true, and they have never been refuted by anyone in the First Presidency.
Nonetheless, while some Mormons may not hold to some some of the doctrines contained in the flier, they are indeed taught by Salt Lake City.
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If you are able to find these teachings in Church manuals why do you use material that is so controversial even among LDS members? By using questionable material you leave yourself open for attack and lessen your credibility (though I noticed you did use History of the Church and Ensign, very good). Why not quote from the manuals? I think you will have a lot more credibility with LDS members and non-LDS investigators that way. Investigators will have access to Gospel Principles, priesthood manuals, etc. So it will be much easier for them to check your sources as well.
I would be interested in seeing where in Church manuals it teaches that God is a polygamist, God had intercourse with Mary, Jesus was crucified because of polygamy or that other Christians’ God is the Mormon devil. I would be very interested in references from manuals of the Church which state these things.
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Great work on the flyer, Pilgrim!
The fact that it’s already generating heat here at DefCon serves to demonstrate that the enemy of truth is already upset and sending his demonically inspired minions in to cast forth seeds of doubt.
“Yea, hath God said?”
The demonic LDS faithful are plagued by a problem that is not dissimilar to the type faced by the hell spawned Roman Catholic harlot church — according to their faith tradition when an LDS “prophet” speaks its exactly the same as if their primary god himself were speaking; in other words their false prophets are speaking forth Mormon scripture.
This is exactly why the Roman Catholic Church CANNOT reform because they, like the LDS cultists, have built their man-centered, works-righteousness false religion upon the blasphemous lie that the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra – in other words the RCC teaches that the anti-christ usurper the Pope speaks infallibly for God Himself and for a Catholic to believe otherwise is be anathema (accursed).
We needn’t hold our breath for the false religious systems of the LDS or the RCC to implode by rejecting their false doctrines of human merit in favor of the unique, infallible, plenary, and unchanging Word of God as it is found in the 66 books of the Holy Bible which reveals the one true and pure religion – Biblical Christianity which is founded solely on the merit of God alone.
Yet there is hope that individual Mormons and Catholics may, by God’s infinite mercy and pity alone, be translated from their present state of spiritual blindness and death by grace through faith, placing their trust in the TRUE Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible alone – the only One Who can save sinners from the sure, abiding, and eternal wrath of the One True and Living God.
In Christ,
CD
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Coram Deo said: “…demonically inspired minions…the hell spawned Roman Catholic harlot church…LDS cultists…the anti-christ usurper the Pope…”
Wow! It sounds like you feel really threatened by the LDS and Catholic Church. I’m sorry you feel such anger toward them. Why not preach the truth of your faith. Truth always outlast lies. If the Mormons or Catholics or any other faith is a lie your truth will out shine it. No need to feel such hatred.
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I don’t feel anger or hatred toward unbelievers, Jay; they’re simply demonic dupes, satanic stooges and pawns of the enemy. Nor do I find the rank idolatry of unbelievers to be threatening, it’s just pathetic.
This being said I do find it deeply saddening that they are willing dupes, but such is always the case with hardened unbelief. Furthermore it hasn’t escaped my notice that unbelievers easily and frequently confuse the truth with hatred which, for some reason, never ceases to surprise me.
But, if it were possible that the damnable doctrines of unbelief were wiped clean out of existence then I would certainly rejoice exceedingly!
In point of fact someday I will rejoice as the Lord of Glory, the King Whom I serve, will do precisely this – He will utterly destroy and shatter the powers and principalities of this fallen world system, annihilating everything that exalts itself against His Holy Name! The truth of the One True and Living God will someday (prayerfully soon!) prevail over the lies of the enemy; but it will be too late for those who are damned in their sins and trespasses because of their stubborn rejection of the true Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible.
You see, this isn’t hatred Jay, you’re simply confused here. It’s loving to tell the dying that they are need of strong medicine and that you know the One Who has the cure for their fatal disease…in contradiction it’s the very worst kind of hate to simply have a conversation with the dying and attempt to make them feel comfortable and at ease while withholding the cure they desperately need as they expire and then lift their eyes up from eternal torments in unquenchable hell fire.
If I profess to love the truth, then doesn’t it stand to reason that I must hate a lie?
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43
In Christ,
CD
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Jay,
As far as polygamy–no one here would argue that the LDS still teaches it. However, you and I both know that Joseph Smith added section 132 in 1843 so he could marry other women. And the flier makes it clear that this “new and everlasting covenant” was rescinded with Official Declaration 1 of the D&C. However, many of the Mormon leaders at that time did say that polygamy was essential for salvation. Footnote 60 refers you to a quote by Joseph F. Smith from JOD 20:28-31. Also, in an 1891 petition to Congress, the First Presidency said–“We formerly taught to our people that polygamy or celestial marriage as commanded by God through Joseph Smith was right; that it was a necessity to man’s highest exaltation in the life to come.” Reed Smoot Case, vol. 1, page 18
Now, these quotes may have been contained in the JOD (a work that George Q. Cannon said “ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number as it comes forth” and some LDS would say these are just men’s opinions. But this is something that has long puzzled me about LDS “prophets.” They come out with these statements, they get repeated by the next prophet, and the next and the next. They have them published for all the saints to see, they claim to be speaking from the mouth of God–then turn around and say, “Well, that’s not really something you have to believe.” Well, which is it? Are the saints supposed to believe the prophet is only speaking truth, or can they say, “Well, I’m not so sure about that.” I don’t think there are many devout Mormons who doubt the words of the prophet. At least they would never say they do.
So, other than the polygamy issue, what else was not correct?
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Dear Jay:
Thank you for your comments.
Those who are genuinely investigating LDS, (and those Mormons who are honest), will certainly pick up on the double standard that is so often applied by those defending LDS. Here’s an example:
Mormons will quote all day long from one of their prophets (let’s just use Brigham Young for example) from various sources (let’s say the Journal of Discourses for example) and no one in LDS has an issue with it. Then when someone else who’s critical of LDS quotes the very same prophet from the very same collection of teachings, then all of a sudden the excuses come flowing like milk and honey: “it’s only his opinion,” “it’s not canon,” “we don’t believe that,” etc.
Let’s be honest, you cannot draw fresh and salty water from the same spring. You cannot use a prophet’s words on one hand when they benefit you, then dismiss the same prophet on the other hand when he says what you don’t like. This is intellectual dishonesty at its worst. It’s equally dishonest to claim that we can’t use the writings/teachings of LDS prophets from materials still produced, published, marketed and endorsed by the LDS Church. When it comes to this you simply can’t have your cake and eat it too.
With that said, let’s avoid any further vague generalizations. I offer you the opportunity to pick an issue from the flyer that you disagree with and let us examine it more closely.
Respectfully,
– The Pilgrim
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Dear Fourpointer:
It sounds as if you disagree with the polygamy issue found in the flyer (which is still found in the canon of LDS scripture, D&C). If there’s anything that’s erroneous or worded to imply anything factually incorrect, please do not hesitate to let me know so I can correct it. Can you please clarify what you were saying? I have reproduced the section on polygamy from the flyer below for your convenience:
In 1843 Joseph Smith claimed God gave him the “new and everlasting covenant” of polygamy. Its practice was considered essential for salvation and those who refused to participate in it would be damned, (including Joseph Smith’s first wife Emma if she didn’t accept his new lifestyle). According to LDS teaching, only those who practiced polygamy could become gods. Ironically, this “new and everlasting covenant” actually contradicted the Book of Mormon, and was eventually reversed by the LDS organization less than 50 years later. In spite of this, it is interesting to note that LDS still defines an “everlasting covenant” as a covenant that will never be changed.
Thanks.
Sincerely,
– The Pilgrim
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Pilgrim,
No, the info about polygamy is, as they would say across the pond, “spot on.” The point I was trying to make to Jay is that that is the only doctrine in that flier that is not currently being promulgated by the LDS church. It was the one he seemed to have the biggest hangup with, so I was trying to set him at ease and let him know that we don’t go around saying SLC still teaches it.
Officially, that is.
There are many Salt Lake LDS that would like nothing more than to see polygamy legalized in this country–and the legal marrying age lowered–so that the perversions that took place in the early Mormon church–and more recently in Texas–can happen more often. Which is why, as you pointed out, it is still in the D&C.
There is a blog run by a Mormon that has many readers who think that the laws against polygamy are “unconstitutional” and that the actions of the Texas CPS were “overzealous,” etc. When I get a chance I’ll post some comments from a couple of their articles. I dare say if Romney had gotten in the White House, D&C 132 would have gotten a huge jumpstart.
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Pilgrim,
The things that are pulled by Mormons out of the Journal of Discourses are the doctrines Brigham Young teaches, not his speculations. Just as the books of the New Testament were chosen because they best represented the doctrines of Christianity, other books were rejected. Critics of the LDS faith want to say that everything Brigham Young or even Joseph Smith said was from God (something that no one, including them, believes). Brigham Young, Joseph Smith and any other prophet or leader in the LDS Church has express their opinion. The Church tries not to repeat opinion and weeds it out because opinion is of man not God. I think you see this weeding when you compare the Church today with the LDS Church of the 19th Century. God’s working on us just give us some time.
Fourpointer,
I will get back to you on the pamphlet. It is hard to find the time to point out all the things I see wrong with it. If you would like we could talk by phone and go over it sometime. You can email me and we can set something up. That would be the easiest. If your goal is to scare people away from the LDS missionaries, I think you may have success with the pamphlet you now have. But if your goal is to convince informed people, even LDS members, then you have some work to do.
As an aside, I doubt very much that members of the worldwide LDS Church based in SLC want to see polygamy legalized or the marriage age decreased. I have heard quite the opposite from LDS members.
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Jay,
What determines whether we can rely on what a prophet says or not? Would be curious to know your answer.
Also, if you do believe in Mormonism (I assume you do based on your writings, but correct me if I’m wrong), what is your basis for believing it?
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Dear 4 Pointer:
Thanks for the clarification. Whew. You had me worried there for a minute. I was careful in the flier to not say they are currently teaching this one. :o)
Dear Jay:
Your remark about not being able to currently challenge the flyer because you don’t have the time to discuss it because there’s JUST SO MUCH WRONG WITH IT is cute, even humorous, but not honest. You further do harm to yourself by then requesting we take the discussion off and away from the blog where others cannot see it (and where strangely you’ll then find the time). I suggest that the vague accusations cease and you get to specifics so “informed people, even LDS members” can see the truth laid out without the unchallenged spin of the LDS organization.
Please do not think I am looking for a fight. All I am asking is that if you’re going to charge that I was lying or misleading in what I wrote, then back up the accusations. Take one of the few topics that you disagree with and hold it up for closer examination. I stand by what I wrote and am willing to defend it by Scripture and LDS writings. You keep saying it’s full of errors and I keep saying let’s discuss these “errors” and you keep trying to avoid it. You have now painted yourself into a corner. I’m sure there are many reading this thread that are waiting on you to cite one “lie” in that flyer and you keep avoiding the issue.
And finally, you said, “Critics of the LDS faith want to say that everything Brigham Young or even Joseph Smith said was from God (something that no one, including them, believes). Brigham Young, Joseph Smith and any other prophet or leader in the LDS Church has express their opinion.”
No, I don’t believe that everything B.Y. said was from God (in fact the opposite is true, I don’t believe anything he said was from God). However, B.Y. himself made the following nine claims:
1)“What man or woman on the earth, what spirit in the spirit-world can say truthfully that I ever gave a wrong word of counsel, or a word of advice that could not be sanctioned by the heavens?” (J.O.D. 12:127) Apparently a whole host of modern-day LDS apologists are saying you gave wrong counsel Brigham, (including Jay), that’s who.
2)“You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth.” (J.O.D. 9:289)
3)“I will commence by saying to the Latter-day Saints and to all the inhabitants of the earth that I am responsible for the doctrine I teach; but I am not responsible for the obedience of the people to that doctrine.” (J.O.D. 13:1)
4)“I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom.” (J.O.D. 13:95)
5)“I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually.” (J.O.D. 13:95) That’s not what Jay is saying Brigham. You must be rolling in your grave.
6)“Brigham Young has said “when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.” I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible, and if you want to read revelation read the sayings of him who knows the mind of God.”
(J.O.D. 13:264)
7)“I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life . . . . If there is an elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; that is the reason.” (J.O.D. 16:161)
8)“We do not wish incorrect and unsound doctrines be handed down to posterity under the sanction of great names, to be received and valued by future generations as authentic and reliable . . . . Errors in history and in doctrine, if left uncorrected by us who are conversant with the events, and who are in a position to judge of the truth or falsity of the doctrines, would go to our children as though we had sanctioned and endorsed them.” (Millennial Star 27:659)
9)“In my doctrinal teachings I have taught many things not written in any book, ancient or modern, and yet, notwithstanding the many things I have told the people, I have never looked into the Bible, Book of Mormon, or the Doctrine and Covenants, or any of our church works to see whether they agreed with them or not. When I have spoken by the power of God and the Holy Ghost, it is truth, it is scripture, and I have no fears but that it will agree with all that has been revealed.” (Deseret News Weekly for 06/06/77)
And finally, when prophet Joseph Fielding Smith was asked what scripture was, he said the following:
“WHAT IS SCRIPTURE? When one of the brethren stands before a congregation of the people today, and the inspiration of the Lord is upon him, he speaks that which the Lord would have him speak. It is just as much scripture as anything you will find written in any of these records, and yet we call these the standard works of the Church. We depend, of course, upon the guidance of the brethren who are entitled to inspiration.” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:186)
I hope this helps to clarify whether or not you can pick and choose what you believe about an LDS prophet’s teachings. They are either scripture or not, they can’t be both.
Sincerely,
– The Pilgrim
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Dear Jay,
Your unsubstantiated assertions are an example of the reckless irresponsibility seen time and time again by Mormons in their attempt to become apologists for the LDS organization. What damages your cause even more, Jay, is that I have offered you the choice to discuss whatever topic from the flyer that you disagree with but instead you have settled for vague generalities and baseless accusations.
You know, it’s disconcerting when time after time a Mormon will come in here and make accusations such as you did, Jay. You accused me of “spreading gossip” and when you were asked, “Perhaps you can show us which information in the flier is not accurate?” you replied, “It would be a very long post.” That may illicit laughter from the LDS faithful, but those seriously investigating LDS or struggling with the plethora of problems with LDS will demand more than that.
Here are more of your allegations that you have failed to back-up:
1). “many of your pronouncements of ‘Mormon Doctrine’ are merely the speculations of early Mormon leaders . . .”
2). “I think your flier is inaccurate and bias. . . . I’d just hope anyone that reads it doesn’t base their opinion solely on what you have written, that would be a mistake.
3). “I will get back to you on the pamphlet. It is hard to find the time to point out all the things I see wrong with it.”
4). “If your goal is to scare people away from the LDS missionaries, I think you may have success with the pamphlet you now have. But if your goal is to convince informed people, even LDS members, then you have some work to do.”
I have found that occasionally we will get a visit from a rare Mormon who will actually stick around to discuss the issues we raise. However, as soon as the smoke and mirrors perpetuating the façade they’ve masqueraded behind are removed, they come to the realization that they are trying to defend an indefensible organization. It is inevitable that once they succumb to this epiphany they quickly disappear from the blog.
– The Pilgrim
P.S. I’m still waiting for a reply from Jim who left a “snipe-and-run” comment on this post back in November but failed to provide even one example of an inaccuracy. Yup . . . still waiting.
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Jay,
It would take just as much time to dialog here as it would by email. And it would give the readers of the blog the benefit of seeing such a dialog, so they can make up their minds.
Also, I’m not looking for a point-by-point refutation of every single statement. Just take a couple examples where we’re wrong and that will suffice.
Finally, how does one determine what part of a prophet’s speech is “inspired by God” and which parts are just his opinion? Because, to be quite honest, I have seen Mormons quote one part of a prophet’s speech, while completely disavowing something they said just a few paragraphs later.
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Your remark about not being able to currently challenge the flyer because you don’t have the time to discuss it because there’s JUST SO MUCH WRONG WITH IT is cute, even humorous, but not honest.
I’m sorry if you took offense to my remark. I was not trying to be offensive. I was merely stating the fact that my time is limited and I saw many things in the pamphlet that merit a closer look.
Please do not think I am looking for a fight.
I can only take you on what you have written and it is very obvious to me that you are not looking for a civil conversation, which may explain why so many Mormons, as you claim, show up and leave without talking with you further.
No, I don’t believe that everything B.Y. said was from God
I never claimed that you believed everything BY said was from God. (In fact I said the opposite) Read what I said carefully, “Critics of the LDS faith want to say that everything Brigham Young or even Joseph Smith said was from God (something that no one, including them, believes).
Apparently a whole host of modern-day LDS apologists are saying you gave wrong counsel Brigham, (including Jay), that’s who.
That’s exactly what I, and most of the LDS Church, say. In some ways Brigham Young was arrogant, but because I don’t expect a prophet/man to be perfect I’m ok with that.
WHAT IS SCRIPTURE? When one of the brethren stands before a congregation of the people today, and the inspiration of the Lord is upon him, he speaks that which the Lord would have him speak.
Notice the “…and the inspiration of the Lord is upon him…” part. I agree with Joseph Fielding Smith. A prophet isn’t always speaking for God, even if he is up in front of the congregation.
I hope this helps to clarify whether or not you can pick and choose what you believe about an LDS prophet’s teachings. They are either scripture or not, they can’t be both.
Yes, especially the last quote you gave. Had you left that out I think I may have forgotten that not everything a prophet says is directly from God. Thanks.
…in their attempt to become apologists for the LDS organization.
I almost laughed out loud at that one. I have no desire to be an apologist for the LDS Church (something you would know if you knew me). My desire is to see things from both points of view. You have demonstrated an inability to do this. I have conceded that many of the points you make in your pamphlet are valid criticisms of the LDS faith, but that you go too far by mixing opinion with actual LDS belief and stating that they are one and the same when they are in fact quite different.
I don’t doubt you can back up what you have written with this or that document. Your problem is that you are so unfamiliar with LDS belief that you are unable to discern between opinions of LDS leaders and accepted doctrine of the LDS faith. You hold LDS prophets to an unrealistic standard of perfection that I doubt you would hold anyone in your faith to. Only Christ himself would hold to the standard you set for LDS prophets.
…but those seriously investigating LDS or struggling with the plethora of problems with LDS will demand more than that.
And they should. I would expect everyone to do their own reading and study. Your pamphlet is a good start but I stand by my assertion that it is essentially gossip mixed with fact. I don’t have time to do everyone’s homework for them, which is why I encourage people to study it for themselves and make up their own minds, not relying on your pamphlet alone. I never said they shouldn’t read your pamphlet or that there was no validity to anything you wrote.
However, as soon as the smoke and mirrors perpetuating the façade they’ve masqueraded behind are removed, they come to the realization that they are trying to defend an indefensible organization. It is inevitable that once they succumb to this epiphany they quickly disappear from the blog.
The more parsimonious explanation would probably be that they get tired of talking to someone so unwilling and unable to see anything but his own point of view. In other words they get tired of wasting their time.
I’m still waiting for a reply from Jim who left a “snipe-and-run” comment on this post back in November but failed to provide even one example of an inaccuracy. Yup . . . still waiting.
I viewed the list and again found some truth but a lot of rumor and gossip. I’m not surprised Jim (whoever that is) didn’t comment further. I think the list, as does the pamphlet, speak for themselves.
Fourpointer,
It would take just as much time to dialog here as it would by email.
My invitation was to talk by phone. I can understand how you would like everyone to see our conversation, but it really is faster and easier to talk person to person and time is precious. I wouldn’t be opposed to you recording our call if you thought that was necessary.
Also, I’m not looking for a point-by-point refutation of every single statement. Just take a couple examples where we’re wrong and that will suffice.
Based on pilgrim’s response (which are far less amicable than yours) I get the impression that you both wish to present anything written by a prophet or leader of the Church as doctrine or beliefs of the LDS Church. This is simply not the case, as those who study Mormon theology know. I could say that what BY said is not a belief of the Church and because his opinion was written down you will continue to insist that it is. You accept things that the vast majority of LDS member do not and I cannot change that. I can only point out that it is not what Mormons believe to be true. If you refuse to accept what I say, I have no control over that.
Finally, how does one determine what part of a prophet’s speech is “inspired by God” and which parts are just his opinion? Because, to be quite honest, I have seen Mormons quote one part of a prophet’s speech, while completely disavowing something they said just a few paragraphs later.
Thank you for the sincere question. I believe this is a personal decision and one that everyone should take seriously. I understand the frustration because I know that what you are saying is true. The Church will use parts of the Journal of Discourses and disregard others. Is it not all God’s word? The simple answer is no. That is why it is not accepted as canonized scripture. There is too much opinion in it. My first test is, does it have any scriptural support? If not I know it is not of God but opinion. Another test is, is there a consensus among the twelve on the subject? If not I know it is opinion and not of God. I believe that the Spirit of God will guide us to truth if we seek it.
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Dear Jay:
Thanks for writing back. If you peruse past posts, you will see exactly what I meant by “snipe-and-run” comments. Jim in that previously mentioned comment was just one example.
But anyway, I am not seeking to contend over such a trivial matter. My earnest desire is to defend truth and contend for the faith.
I bear my testimony that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God, the LDS organization is not the one true church, and I am still standing on firm on the claim that the contents of the cult flyer are accurate, and the quotes of your organization’s leaders were not merely “opinion” or “rumor.” If you can show me where I erred, I will gladly make any corrections.
The words of your “church prophets” at the time they were preached, taught, accepted, recorded in LDS publications, and practiced were not viewed as mere “opinions” or “rumors” to those who lived back then as you would have us to believe today.
Many of their teachings are called “opinion” today because it would be an embarrassment to the organization otherwise (it’s also known as revising history/saving face).
Furthermore, I have provided adequate footnotes for readers to be able to do their own research as you suggest. I have studied Mormonism for years and I possess many LDS books for my studies. This flyer was not hastily thrown together.
Additionally, regarding “inspiration,” we are not talking about inspiration one minute preaching great truths of God, then citing one’s pizza topping preferences the next minute.
Brigham Young gave many discourses on how the blacks are cursed, on blood atonement, on polygamy, etc. So you cannot simply divide his teachings cleanly and say teachings “A” were inspired but teachings “B” were uninspired. For crying out loud, teachings “B” were awful and came from the heart of a madman. You want your cake and eat it too and that is absolutely illogical. He was either a prophet of God or he was not. If the Apostle Paul said half the things B.Y. said none of his teachings would have made it into canon. The same spring can’t produce good and bad water! Remember, LDS teaches that God will NOT allow or permit a prophet to lead the church astray (this is also known as painting yourself into a corner)
Now I have proposed my offer to you and it still stands. Pick one issue from the flyer that you disagree with and let’s examine it.
Setting aside all other issues, peripheral arguments, your constant opinions on why you think I wrote the flyer, and your insinuations that I am unable to “understand” Mormonism, let us examine the issues and it will all come out in the wash.
How about we start with the utterly blasphemous and anti-Christ doctrine of Blood Atonement as taught and practiced by the early LDS organization? I think that would be a fine place to start . . . if you’re willing.
– The Pilgrim
P.S. Regarding your notion that “inspiration” in necessary for an LDS prophet’s words to be deemed as scripture, allow me to direct you to LDS prophet Ezra Taft Benson in number 6 of the 14 Fundamentals as he cites the LDS canon D & C:
The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture. Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel, but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, “Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you” (D&C 21:4).
And in the 1st:
The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything. . . . Did you hear what the Lord said about the words of the prophet? We are to “give heed unto all his words”—as if from the Lord’s “own mouth.”
Confusion? New light? Contradiction?
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I am still standing on firm on the claim that the contents of the cult flyer are accurate, and the quotes of your organization’s leaders were not merely “opinion” or “rumor.”
How do you prove things are opinion? Look at what the LDS Church teaches now. Look for consensus among the LDS Apostles and prophets. Find scriptural support (or what LDS believe is scriptural support) for the teaching. If you are unable to find these things you can be assured it is opinion.
It is pretty common for us as humans to speculate about the things of God based on our current knowledge. As further light and information is given from God you can begin to discern with better understanding.
The words of your “church prophets” at the time they were preached … were not viewed as mere “opinions” or “rumors” to those who lived back then as you would have us to believe today.
You are probably right. I believe the same thing. It is an unfortunate truth that most of us will not argue with people we agree with. Brigham Young was part of the larger American culture, which as a whole was racist (using this as an example). If you agree with someone, as perhaps his audience did, you will most likely not question what they have said, even if it is wrong. I think this is part of what happened. In addition, back then, as now, there were LDS members that mistakenly thought all the words of the prophet are from God. Given BY’s statements I don’t blame them for thinking that. However, scripture just doesn’t line up with the idea that prophets are infallible in speech and deed.
Furthermore, I have provided adequate footnotes for readers to be able to do their own research as you suggest.
Like I said before, you have provided a good start for people to become informed about the many topics you broach. However, to gain an accurate understanding of what you cite people must have a broad knowledge of context, Mormon history and most importantly LDS theological beliefs. This knowledge doesn’t come from reading a pamphlet, it takes years of objective study to develop and is often harder for those that come with preconceived ideas about Mormonism. It also takes a willingness to listen sincerely to both sides of the issues (i.e. pro-LDS and anti-LDS) and weigh the strengths and weaknesses of their arguments.
The same spring can’t produce good and bad water!
It happens all the time. People are much more complex than your spring analogy. Many people do much good but also do evil. Again you hold LDS prophets to a standard that is held by Christ alone. It is illogical to think that a man, even a prophet, could measure up to such a standard. We just need read the Old Testament to begin to see just how human prophets can be.
How about we start with the utterly blasphemous and anti-Christ doctrine of Blood Atonement…
I challenge you to find anyone in the LDS Church today that believes this was inspired of God. Indeed they probably won’t even know what it is because it is not taught in the LDS Church. It is yet another example of BY’s opinion based on his knowledge of God at the time.
The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.
Yes, I agree but as Joseph Fielding Smith pointed out he must be inspired of God for his words to be scripture. There are no magical words that have to be spoken. It is the Spirit of God that must testify of the words to each individual.
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Just so everyone understands that what is contained in this flier is actual Mormon teaching, here are just a few examples. The LDS quotes will be from “OFFICIAL” LDS materials:
However, a current prophet trumps a previous one even if he’s in complete contradiction to the former.
The following quotes are from the LDS teaching manual, Teachings of the Living Prophets from the LDS Church Educational System. This is not opinion. This is material approved by the LDS church for teaching.
—The Lord has made it clear that we are to receive the words of the living prophet as if from the Lord’s own mouth
—President Ezra Taft Benson said that the “living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works” (“Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,” in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University, 1981], p. 26).
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Mormons are taught that almost every verse of the Bible is corrupt(31) but the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth(32).
31–Article of Faith #8
32–Introduction page to the BOM
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3,913 documented changes to the BOM
See some of the changes here.
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In 1843 Joseph Smith claimed God gave him the “new and everlasting covenant” of polygamy. Its practice was considered essential for salvation and those who refused to participate in it would be damned, (including Joseph Smith’s first wife Emma if she didn’t accept his new lifestyle).
We both know this much is true (D&C 132), so we won’t go into that.
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Mormons not only differ in their beliefs from Christians, but they also admittedly believe in a different Jesus.
Again, not too much to discuss here. LDS teach that Jesus is a separate god from Elohim (Heavenly Father).
To this day they teach that His body was begotten by the Father. This is a little tricky to pinpoint:
—Thus, God the Father became the literal father of Jesus Christ (Gospel Principles, p. 57 [1986 ed.]).
—You all know that your fathers are indeed your fathers and that your mothers are indeed your mothers – you all know that don’t you? You cannot deny it. Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father…Now my little friends, I will repeat again in words as simple as I can, and you ask your parents about it, that God, the Eternal Father, is literally the father of Jesus Christ. (Family Home Evening, 125-126).
—“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was fathered by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!” (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 7)
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LDS doctrine is saturated with the teaching that Mormons can become gods.
We all know the quote from the King Follett Discourse about how we have to learn how to become gods ourselves.
Jay, it is clear from these quotes (not to mention the many more that exist) that what is in this flier is actual Mormon teaching. It does not take “years of study” to figure out that the God of Mormonism, the Jesus of Mormonism, and the gospel of Mormonism is unbiblical, unsupported by Scripture, and contradictory to even its own teachings. Now, you can either make your case here, for the benefit of all who read this, and show them that Pilgrim and I are wrong. Or you can let them read what we have shown them with no evidence to the contrary.
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Mormons are taught that almost every verse of the Bible is corrupt(31) but the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth(32).
31–Article of Faith #8
32–Introduction page to the BOM
OK fourpointer, I’ll bite, but since you refuse to engage me any other way than on your blog this could be a very long conversation. Please don’t take offense that I don’t tackle all your assumptions at once.
You’re statement above is a prime example of what we discussed earlier. Mormons, unlike some orthodox Christians, do not believe the Bible is perfect, that much is true, but then you add that they believe, “almost every verse of the Bible is corrupt” and cite the 8th article of faith as your reference.
Articles of Faith #8
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
I’m not sure where you get that we believe that almost every biblical verse is corrupt because that’s not what the 8th article of faith or the introduction to the Book of Mormon states. Your statement that Mormons believe the almost every verse of the Bible is corrupt is hyperbole. It falls under what I would call gossip since it is so obviously not true.
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Dear Jay and Fourpointer:
Thanks for your comments and for both of you taking your time in this matter.
To avoid the myriad of rabbit trails that this topic can take, I will do all I can to stay on one topic and not veer off. Oftentimes so much information is discussed in debates that nothing is ever understood.
So with that said, I will follow the path that you two have started; the topic of the Bible as viewed by Mormons.
As you can surely understand, there is not adequate space on the flyer to list all LDS quotes regarding this issue. So for your consideration (and that of those following this thread) I will quote more sources below so that you can understand that I didn’t simply cherry-pick someone’s opinion or build an entire case against LDS on one quote.
And I will also review what I wrote in comparison with the teaching of LDS and if it appears that I misspoke (or miss-wrote) I will gladly make the necessary corrections.
Without further ado, I present to you what LDS has really said about the Bible:
This congregation heard brother O. Pratt scan the validity of the Bible, and I thought by the time he got through, that you would scarcely think a Bible worth picking up and carrying home, should you find one in the streets. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 3, Page 116
I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors. Joseph Smith, History of the Church , Volume 6, Page 57
The scriptures are a mixture of very strange doctrines to the Christian world, who are blindly led by the blind. Joseph Smith, History of the Church , Volume 6, Page 478
It was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Page 10
The Bible is not a sufficient guide; it is only the history of the people who lived 1800 years ago. Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Volume 2, Page 75
The Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and re-copied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike. Orson Pratt, The Seer, Page 213
Latter-day Saints and Muslims acknowledge that writings in the Bible, while inspired and truthful, underwent some changes as they passed through the hands of careless scribes and translators and conniving priests. David Stewart, A Message of Friendship: Muslims and Latter-day Saints, Page 4
Now I have a question for you Jay: If you believe as Joseph Smith said, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God” (P of G P pg. 60) then it begs the question, which parts of the Bible are translated correctly and which are translated incorrectly?
– The Pilgrim
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Jay,
It is interesting to note that in his “Inspired Version,” Joseph Smith completely obliterates the Book of Genesis, making it almost unrecognizable from the original. The same with much of the first chapter of John. If it were only a few places where the Bible was “not translated correctly,” then why these wholesale changes to the Bible in the Joseph Smith Translation (JST)?
You said, Your statement that Mormons believe the almost every verse of the Bible is corrupt is hyperbole. It falls under what I would call gossip since it is so obviously not true. But here’s a question: Why did Joseph Smith set out to make a new translation of the Bible, if he thought that only some parts of it had been “mistranslated?” The very fact that Joseph believed he had to make a new translation of the Bible is evidence that he though the whole Bible was corrupt. If Joseph had finished the JST, and if it were not the property of the RLDS (Community of Christ), which version of the Bible do you think Salt Lake City would be using today? The KJV? Or the JST?
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Drats. Links didn’t work.
Genesis (JST)
John (JST) (The first chapter especially)
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Hi,
I’ve just been reading thru this thread. Keep up the good work Fourpointer and Pilgrim! One thing that I really popped out as I was reading all this (and this happens alot when you are having a dialogue with a Mormon) is that once you get close to their error and they see it and they don’t know what to say, they start attacking you instead of the subject. Go back and read it – you will see it plain as day!
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Robin,
Thanks for your comment.
Yes, I too have experienced what you are describing quite frequently. More often than not, though, they simply stop debating and disappear. Of course this is piously regarded as “not wasting their time” when the truth is they know (as much a I) that it’s because they cannot defend the indefensible.
Another tactic employed is when their mouthpieces for God (prophets) say things that reveal their true dark side the LDS apologists (and others in LDS) will all of a sudden claim that those prophets were just speaking opinions, even when accepted “doctrine” comes from that same sermon. It’s picking and choosing like a buffet and this is intellectually dishonest. It puts the burden on the people to figure out if what the prophet said was inspired of God and to be followed, or simply his opinion and can be ignored. This is not only absurd but indefensible. Their is no teaching, example, or precedent for this in all of Scripture.
LDS also likes to camp in the Old Testament to try to “prove” that their prophets speaking evil is ok because they surmise that some OT prophets were not perfect.
However, in the NT the Comforter was sent and now God indwells the believer. When this happens the man is changed. He is a new creation. Gone are his racist ideas, his sexual infidelity (Polygamy), false prophecies, murderous intent (Blood Atonement), etc.
Can you imagine Peter, James, Paul saying some of the things that LDS leaders have said, then claim it was just their opinion and we should only focus on when they said “thus saith the Lord.” That would be ridiculous.
When one immerses himself in the writings of the early LDS fathers (not the latest polished, revised, PR versions) one begins to see that these men continued to hold to their evil thoughts, intentions, and desires. This is the “fruit” that we can identify those trees by. The “fruit” Jesus told us that we would know them by.
Thanks again for your comment, Robin, and I hope you are blessed, encouraged and strengthened by this thread and this blog.
– The Pilgrim
“When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.”
(Joseph Smith Jr., History of the Church, Volume 6, Page 409, 1844)
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I am so excited to make available to you a very nice and professional looking version of the cult flyer. A dear brother from Australia (who wishes to remain anonymous on the blog) took the time to redesign the original cult flyer to make it really stand out. I’ve added it above to the original post for you to view/download, or you can view/download it here.
– The Pilgrim
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