16 thoughts on “24 Questions for Charismatics and followers of Todd Bentley.”

1. I am a charismatic but in the vein of Wayne Grudem or John Piper. Actually, I like to describe myself as post-charismatic. This is an effort to separate myself from the wackiness of current charismania while still upholding the biblical continuationist view of the charismatic gifts. I am sick and tired of the charismatic groupies that flock to events like Lakeland. In light of this, here are my answers:

   1. Without question, the Bible.
   2. There are two issues here. First, your particular use of Heb 1:1 seems to imply a cessationist view of charismatic gifts. I believe this rises from a misunderstanding of the office of New Testament prophet. Grudem handles this well when he says it is the NT apostle that best equates with the OT prophet and that the NT prophet occupies a somewhat different role. Charismatics believe that prophecy continues precisely because it is the infallible Scripture that tells us to earnestly desire this gift, 1 Cor 12:1. Second, people chase after the Todd Bentleys of the world because they do not understand the Biblical view of prophets and prophecies. Much of this may be reactionary because of all the unbiblical teaching that this gift has ceased instead of teaching the proper biblical view of it.
   3. If you are implying that traveling to some location where “God is present” is not biblical, then I whole-heartedly agree. Again, much of the craziness of current charismania is due to an improper understanding of the Scriptures which are not well-taught in many, but not all, charismatic circles.
   4. The book of Acts clearly shows that Agabus was a legitimate prophet. Philip, the evangelist, had four daughters who were prophetesses. I’m sure the Jews would accept none of these as such. The Jews do not determine what is legitimate and what is not. The Scriptures do.
   5. Again, this is because the Scriptures are not properly taught in many charismatic churches. You are absolutely correct that 1 Cor 14:40 needs to be a guiding principle in all our meetings.
   6. Again, an improper understanding of the Scriptures.
   7. As you suggest, the Scriptures certainly teach that there will be a huge falling away from the faith in the latter days. It would be easy to say we are in the midst of that right now but this is only true for North America. This phase has already been largely completed in Europe and we may be seeing the beginnings of a possible turn-around there. But Latin America and, especially, parts of Africa and Asia are experiencing widespread growth of Christianity. Estimates in China range from 40,000 to 100,000 conversions per day! We too often look at America as if it is typical of the whole world which it is not. This would indicate to me that we are not currently in the last days. But, I agree with your basic point.
   8. This is something that has always puzzled me. The miraculous things Jesus did were called signs. They were attesting miracles authenticating his role as Messiah. But what were the Pharisees actually seeking? Weren’t the signs he did enough? Why were they seeking more? Having said that, he clearly rebuked them for their actions. It is a bad thing to be seeking signs. This is the same today.
   9. Because of their unbelief. Though even Thomas had to see the prints on his feet and hands and the scar of piercing in his side. Jesus response was to encourage him to view the scars as proof. Yet he also said, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” Same thing applies today.
   10. Because they would not believe.
   11. Come on, dude. You want an answer to every question but you keep asking the same question over and over.
   12. See 11.
   13. See 6. However, this, again, is exacerbated by the extremely flawed view Dispensationalism puts forth on this passage. In imposing a literal interpretation on the sun and the moon portion of this passage, they say it didn’t take place at that time and therefore must apply to the future. The correct interpretation is not literal but symbolic. Peter says, “This [what you are seeing here on Pentecost] is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel.” Then he quotes the whole passage, not just the prophecy part but the sun and moon part and calls what is happening a fulfillment of this whole prophecy. If he says that what is happening is what Joel foretold, then he must be correct, including the sun and moon portion. Therefore, the sun and the moon portion is symbolic for a wholesale change in the order of things. This is clear from passages such as Isa 13 and the prophecies concerning the fall of Babylon. The cosmic phenomena described there were not fulfilled literally when Babylon fell. It was symbolic of a massive change in the political order of things. The message of Act 2 is that there is a massive change in the way God is going to do things. He will no longer dwell in a literal temple. He is going to take up residence in the hearts of his people. They, themselves, will now be the temple, 1 Cor 6.
   14. Please, please do not lump all charismatics in with the prosperity teachers. Charismatics are a very broad group. To lump many of us in with the proponents of the prosperity gospel (which is no gospel) deeply offends those of us who view this message as a cancer in the body of Christ. John Piper is a charismatic who has the correct view of the prosperity gospel. You can view it here: http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=faf0159744aecaf5c732
   15. See 14. We need to learn to be content in whatever state we are in, Phil 4:11. That includes abasing or abounding.
   16. See 6.
   17. See 6.
   18. Because there will be false prophets and it requires biblical discernment to distinguish between the true and the false prophets. This, of course, implies there will be true prophets from which the false must be distinguished. Otherwise, they could just be categorically dismissed. This, of course, is the position of the cessationist who claims to be exercising discernment but is actually dismissing the prophetic out of hand. The problems are not all on the charismatic side.
   19. The most probable interpretation of the passages you cite refers to the time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. Much like the time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, there were many, many false prophets. Remember Hananiah, Jer 28? Josephus talks of a long line of such “prophets” who deceived many leading up to AD 70. Having said this, there is certainly an application to our present day. Again, they do not apply it to “their prophet” because of the lack of understanding in the Scriptures.
   20. 2 Thess 2:9 clearly states that Satan will produce false signs and wonders. I have not been to any Lakeland-style meetings so I cannot provide examples from my direct observation. However, I suspect this is the case.
   21. The passage you indicate clearly teaches that Satan transforms himself as an angel of light. If he always appeared as a red guy with pitchfork and horns, we wouldn’t need discernment. Jesus tells us to know them by their fruits.
   22. God = good. Satan = bad.
   23. They certainly can per the passages you cite.
   24. The proclamation of the word for repentance and faith. When there are accompanying signs or miracles they attest that they are from God, e.g., Acts 4:30. But false prophets may also perform signs and wonders. That is why they must be discerned. Discerned, not dismissed.

   Much of the confusion over charismatic gifts seems due to an improper biblical understanding of these gifts. On the one hand, we have the charismatic groupies who run to places like Lakeland just like groupies run to rock concerts. They clearly lack a biblical understanding of the issues they claim to embrace. On the other hand, we have cessationists who continue to argue in the face of Scripture that these gifts have been discontinued. Yes, I understand that they believe the Scriptures clearly teaches their viewpoint. This brings me to an interesting point. In reality, much of their argument comes, not from Scripture, but from the real abuses they see in the charismatic movement. Yes, there are abuses that desperately need correction. But these do not negate the validity of the gifts in question. If anything, it implies the opposite. Because someone stabs another person with a knife does not imply that knives do not have a legitimate purpose in, say, food preparation. What we need is to get all things from the proper interpretation of the Scriptures, not our experiences and not from sinful excesses we may observe.

   The mark of true revival, by the way, is not signs and wonders, even if they are true. Nor is it the presence or absence weird things like people falling down or twitching. It is repentance and faith in Christ because he is exalted above all. And it is fruit that remains. Time to get back to reading some Jonathan Edwards, methinks.

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2. Conibear Trapp,

   I’d like to pursue several portions of your discussion points offline in order to conserve comment space. If you are willing to engage in an expanded dialogue please feel free to e-mail me at: axeroot@hotmail.com

   I hope to hear back from you soon.

   In Christ,
   CD

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3. There is not much to add to Conibear Trapp’s post. I agree with it. I am a charismatic who has been miraculously healed after receiving and believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ in 1984. Here are my answers:

   1) The Bible. All prophecies must line up with the written Word of God & testify of Jesus Christ (see 1 John), or they are not from God no matter how good they sound or how good they make you feel.

   2) We aren’t supposed to chase after anyone. We are supposed to seek the Lord Jesus.

   3) We aren’t supposed to chase after anything. We already have everything we need in Jesus Christ.

   4) People who follow after the “next big thing” trust in man rather than in Jesus Christ.

   5) Some people would rather live by the feelings of their uncontrolled flesh rather than the self controlled Holy Spirit.

   6) “Love covers a multitude of sins.” The blood of Jesus can cleanse the sin of false prophecy as long as one repents & sins no more.

   7) There will be a great falling away, however, the fields are white for harvest. We are commanded as disciples of Jesus Christ to preach the Gospel to all creation and to pry to the Lord of the Harvest that He would send workers into the harvest fields. It doesn’t say that in the last days that there will be a great healing revival.

   8) Bad, because it exposed their unbelief.

   9) see 8

   10) see 8

   11) no

   12) no

   13) I use 1 Cor 12-13, Mark 16:16-18

   14) It is not God’s will that we are healthy & wealthy. “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get to heaven.” “Those who desire to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.”

   15) Yes.

   16) The Apostle Paul exhorts us to “share in the fellowship of His sufferings.”

   17) see 14b & 16

   18) There are many false prophets, false teachers, false apostles, & false workers of miracles in the world. The Bible repeatedly warns us of this because there are so many of them and they can be difficult to detect.

   19) Some people love & worship men rather than God.

   20) Yes, the Egyptian Magicians vs. Moses, David Copperfield, Criss Angel, etc. Some signs & wonders are from God & some are from Satan.

   21) Satan and his servants can be difficult to detect especially when people don’t have an adequate knowledge of the Scriptures.

   22) It is counterfeit.

   23) Yes.

   24) The presence of signs & wonders can be proof to unbelievers that Jesus Christ is Lord. Also, many may be mislead by false signs & wonders that accompany false prophets & false teachers.

   You seem to be making the assumption that all charismatics are proponents of a prosperity gospel, lack biblical discernment, lack biblical knowledge, & are gullible, weak minded patsies. I’m sure that some are just that. (along with some evangelicals) There are those of us who “test the spirits to see if they are from God.”

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4. I believe in spiritual gifts. I do not call myself a ‘Todd Bentley supporter.’ I’ve only seen an hour or two from the guy on YouTube and other video, mostly before Lakeland. I’ll answer in general as one who believe sin spiritual gifts.

   1). If a modern-day prophet says one thing and the Bible says another (opposing/opposite) which do you follow?

   Of course, the Bible.

   2). Why if God spoke “long ago” through prophets, but now in the last days speaks to us through His Son (Hebrews 1:1) do we still chase after men like Todd Bentley?

   Like I said, I’m not going to comment on Bentley because I don’t know much about him. But if you are using Hebrews 1:1 to argue against the presence of prophets in the church, you need to read the book of Acts. Sure, God spoke through prophets before Christ came. But in Matthew, we read where Christ said He would send prophets. And in Acts, we see prophets in the church. We also see this in epistles like Ephesians and Corinthians. So the fact that God spoke through OT prophets, and then spoke to us through His Son does not negate the fact that there are prophets in the church as well. God speaking through His Son is greater than speaking through prophets in the OT, but does not do away with prophets.

   3). If the temple veil was ripped in two (Matthew 27:51) and God is not to be found in any one particular place on earth (Acts 7:48), but is now available to any true believer anywhere, why must we go to a certain church, event or venue in order to “come get some?”

   God is sovereign and He can do anything He wants anywhere, but sometimes He does want individuals to go to a certain place. He had Ananias go meet Saul. He had Philip go to certain places.

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   4). God sent prophets to the Jews up until the 400 years of silence preceding Jesus Christ, (whom to this day the Jews still reject). Why don’t those who know the standard of prophets best (the Jewish people) continue to “raise up” and chase after prophets like the Charismatics do continually? Why do the Jews continue to patiently wait for their Messiah (which they missed 2,000 years ago) while the Charismatics keep chasing after the next big prophet? What do the Jews understand about a true prophet of God that Charismatics seem to keep missing?
   _______

   I consider your question to be flawed. In the second century, Justin Martyr argued with the Jew Trypho that there were no more prophets Trypho’s people, but that there were among the church. There were prophets in the church in the first century, but since unbelieving Jews did not believe in Jesus, there is no reason to believe unbelieving Jews ran after the prophets in the first century. So why would their opinion matter one way or another today?

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   5). Why if the Church is instructed in 1 Corinthians 14:40 to conduct itself “properly and in an orderly manner” do Charismatics refuse to accept this and instead we see the antics, shenanigans, and circus-like atmosphere in these self-proclaimed movements of God?
   _______________

   I believe in spiritual gifts, and I believe we shoudl follow the order of I Corinthians 14. Honestly, I don’t think most Pentecostal or Charismatic churches really follow this, though many Pentecostal and evangelical churches are probably closer to following it than most evangelical churches, which are even further off the mark in terms of church order.

   Even if Charismatic and Pentecostal churches are generally too restrictive about allowing prophesying in church meetings (or perhaps just don’t have the level of gifting the Corinthians do so never get as far as what Paul described), at least they allow it, which many cessationist evangelical churches do not.

   The prophets are to speak ‘two or three’ (possibly referring to their utterances rather than the number of speakers, I’ve read, supported by parrallelism to verse 26, but the grammar could go either way) and the other are to judge. If another sitting by receives a revelation, the speaking prophet is to hold his peace and let the one who gets the revelation speak. This allows all to prophesy one by one.

   The Bible says ‘let the prophets speak’ and ‘ye may all prophesy’ but few evangelical churches allow this. Instead, most evangelical churches, Pentecostal and Charismatic included, stick with the tradition of men of having one sermon central to the church meeting. This is not how the ministry of the word is described in I Corinthians 14:26, which is in the most extensive chapter we have on church order– or in Hebrews 10:25.

   ____________
   6). When Charismatics use the “my God is the same yesterday, today and forever” argument in the context that they commonly use it, why do they then no longer stone false prophets to death?
   ____________

   I would take the NT equivilent of stoning to be cutting off keeping company and eating with someone based on the end of I Corinthians 5.

   This verse is used to combat the idea that God has fundamentally changed in His nature and dealings with mankind. I don’t find it the most compelling argument against cessationism, but considering there is no teeth to cessationism, Biblically, anyway, its strong enough for a lot of people.

   __________________
   7). Why do Charismatics keep proclaiming the coming of a great revival in these last days when this is in direct opposition to the revealed Word of God which says that a great falling away will occur in the last days (2 Thessalonians 2:3)? Where does it say that the return of Christ is preceded by a great healing revival?
   ____________________

   I don’t know. Not all Charismatics and Pentecostals emphasize this. There is a harvest of the earth in Revelation (which some take in a more ‘negative’ sense than others.)

   I think the ‘prophetic movement’ belief in a great healing revival is more based on prophecies within that movement that escatalogical interpretation of scripture. Though there are concepts like the latter glory of the house being greater than the former, and the church being glorious (and without spot or wrinkle) that some may appeal to, depending on their use of scripture.

   ___________________
   8). Pharisees and Sadducees tested Jesus asking Him to show them a sign (Matthew 16:1, Luke 11:16, John 2:18, John 6:30). Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing?
   ___________________

   I usually see this kind of reasoning from cessationists who say they won’t believe in healing unless they see the hospital cleaned out, than from Charismatic.

   Jesus said an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. But he did not say that all who seek a sign are evil and adulterous. (Some cessationists take the verse that way, but that is the logical error of affirming the consequent.)

   The apostles prayed for God to do signs and wonders in Acts 4. That does not mean the apostles were evil or adulterous. They prayed for a good reason, for the sake of Christ, and for the sake of the Gospel. They had promises from Christ along these lines, and the example of Christ, and their own experiences in the past based on what they had been empowered to do. Seeking God to do signs and wonders for the sake of spreading the Gospel, out of a pure heart is like Acts 4, not like the scribes and Pharisees.

   Since Jesus had just done miracles, I take the demand for a sign to be of the fulfilled prophecy variety, taken from Deuteronomy 18 (or is it 19) about the prophet’s words coming to pass.

   The prophet gives a sign. If it happens, it is a sign that the prophet is true, or that a longer-term prophecy is true. Moses prophesid that the ground would open up and swallow rebels as a sign that God had sent him. It happened, and it was evidence to the people that God had sent him. Hezekiah asked for a sign that he would live and go up to the house of the Lord. He asked for the shadow of the stairs to move in the opposite direction. It happened and this was a sign of the longer term prophecy that he would go to the house of the Lord. Notice the sign Jesus gave– His resurrection.

   ________
   9). Why do those seeking a sign in Mark 8:11-12 cause Jesus to “sigh deeply in His Spirit”?
   ___________

   See previous response. Most Charismatic types I know already believe in Jesus and believe that He does miracles. They don’t seek signs to get Jesus to prove that He is real or really Who He says He is. I never witnessed any supernatural healing until after I believed God heals.

   _____
   10). Why are those seeking signs and wonders (Matthew 12:38-39, Matthew 16:4, Luke 11:29) referred to by Jesus as evil, wicked, and adulterous?
   _____

   Because they were, but the apostles were not, even though they sought for signs, wonders and miracles.

   The people Jesus referred to were not wicked BECAUSE they sought Him for a sign. You are making the logical error of affirming the consequent, apparently, when you read.

   _____________________
   11). Was Jesus saying the need to see signs and wonders was a good thing in John 4:48?
   ______

   Will you believe that God does signs and wonders if you haven’t seen it?

   This verse is about people who won’t believe Jesus unless they see signs and wonders, not people who believe in signs and wonders because they believe in Jesus and they believe the Bible is true.

   That being said, I don’t think seeking God to do signs and wonders for the sake of seeing signs and wonders is a good thing. If someone knows the role of signs and wonders in scripture (in evangelism), and seeks God for them for that reason, that is generally a good thing, as it was in the case of the apostles in Acts 4. The gifts of the Spirit also serve to meet needs in the body of Christ, and I Corinthians 14 shows us that it is appropriate to be zealous for spiritual gifts that edify the church.

   ______________________
   12). Was Paul implying the need to see signs was a good thing in 1 Corinthians 1:22?
   ______________________

   Paul was describing the Jews habit of requiring a sign. He was not saying God was wrong for doing signs, or that he and other apostles were wrong for doing them, or that the believers were wrong for exercising gifts of the Spirit that God gave them, or that they were wrong for being zealous for spiritual gifts as he would later encourage them to be in this epistle.

   _____________________
   13). Why do Charismatics always use Peter’s sermon in Acts chapter 2 (quoting Joel) to justify the tongues and prophecies they perform while excluding the other events like the sun turning dark and the moon turning to blood (v. 20)?
   ______________________

   You would have to ask the invdividual Charismatic since there is a bit of variety in eschatological interpretation. My understanding is that the prophesying and visions things kicked in at the time of Acts 2. This is the time period we live in. There are certain things that kick in at the end of the age. The prophesy kicked in before Peter quoted it. It describes characteristics of ‘the last days’ a time period we still live in.

   __________________
   14). If it is God’s will that we should be healthy and wealthy, why did Paul suffer so much (2 Corinthians 11:23-27, 12:7-10)?
   __________________

   Not all Charismatics believe in the ‘prosperity gospel’. I think you are taking the WOF and TBN stereotype and applying it to all Charismatics.

   In fact, even some of the hard core WOF teachers allow for suffering from persecution, though Paul’s sufferings from being naked and floating in the ocean don’t jive well with some of the WOF philosphy, imo.

   [quote]
   15). Isn’t seeking to be healthy, wealthy, and comfortable in this life a direct contradiction to God’s way of testing the faith of a believer and producing endurance in the life of a believer (James 1:2-4)?[/quote]

   Again, you are painting Charismatics with too broad a brush.

   _________________
   16). Jesus addressed the fact that we are not greater than He, and since He suffered, we (true Christians) should expect the same (John 15:20, Matthew 10:24-25). Why do Charismatics ignore this and cling to the false notion that any suffering is of the Devil?
   _______________

   Again, wrong assumptions.

   ___________________
   17). Why do the only two prophets directly referred to in Scripture in the last days (Revelation 11) perform no healings? Instead they do exactly the opposite of what all the “prophets” of today do; the very things most Charismatics would say is from the Devil. Why is that?
   ______________________

   Do you believe we are in that time period already? Most Charismatics and Pentecostals I know of do not.

   The fact that there are prophets at the very end of the age destroys the common cessationist argument that prophecy has been done away with. It will not be done with at least until after these two witnesses are off the scene, and there is no reference to the cessation of the gift of prophecy in the book of Revelation.

   What I, and most believers I know of who believe in the gifts of the Spirit believe, is that the New Testament shows us how God interacts with the church. The New Testament teaches that God gives the gift of healings to certain believers, and so we believe that.

   And even with the health and wealth types, I don’t know that they’d have a problem with fire destroying unbelievers, at least not more than the typical evangelical.

   ______
   18). Why does the Bible repeatedly identify the existence of and warn us about false prophets (Matthew 7:15, 24:11, 24:24, Mark 13:22, Luke 6:26, Acts 13:6, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 1 John 4:1, etc.)?
   _______

   Because there are and there will be false prophets.

   I have a question for cessationists. Why does the Bible teach us that there are and will be true and false prophets, but it seems like cessationists only believe in the false ones.

   God put the early church in a situation where they had to discern between true and false prophets. It seems like cessationists are so scared of having to discern that they just dismiss the role of prophets, relegating them to the past, so they won’t have to discern.

   Jesus warned of false prophets in Matthew 7. In Matthew 23, He says that He will send prophets. In Acts, Ephesians, and I Corinthians, we see there are true prophets in the church. There are true prophets all the way at the end of the age as described in the book of Revelation, doing true signs and wonders (a miracle of fire.) Then there is the false prophet calling down fire from heaven.

   There are true and false prophets, true and false signs, at the beginning of the age and at the end of the age. What is your Biblical authority for getting rid of prophets in the middle of the last days period.

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   19). In the end many false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders to mislead many (Matthew 24:24, Mark 13:22). Why do most Charismatics refuse to accept this, and if they do accept it, they never accept that this could be referring to their favorite prophet?
   ________________

   For the latter question, if someone wanted you to accept that the term ‘false teacher’ applied to your favorite pastor, would you suggest that?

   I can agree that there is a lack of teaching and warning about false prophets in the certain sgements of the Charismatic movements. There are ditches on both sides of the road. One is accepting all prophecy and prophets without discerning. The other is rejecting prophecy and prophets. The right path on this issue is found in Paul’s teaching to the Thessalonians.

   “Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.”

   Not allowing prophecies is quenching the Spirit. If you assume that any prophecy you hear is false because of a cessationist theology, dismissing them out of hand, that is despising prophesyings. Charismatics need to learn to ‘prove all things’ and ‘hold fast to that which is good.’

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   20). Is there any “sign and wonder” that you can point to that is false/counterfeit from Satan? Or do all “signs and wonders” come from God only?
   _________

   I don’t know that I’ve seen any counterfeit signs and wonders first hand.

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   21). Can Satan and his servants appear as “good” or do they always come to us as easily identifiable “bad” spirits (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)?
   __________________

   Sure, Satan’s messengers try to appear as angels of light.

   _________________________________
   22). Is the great and visible sign performed in Revelation 13:13 a good thing from God or a counterfeit from Satan?
   __________________________________

   I mentioned this earlier. Btw, do you believe the signs and wonders from God are from the Devil, too?

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   23). Can Satan and those in accord with his activity perform signs and wonders and exhibit power (Exodus 7:11-12, 2 Thessalonians 2:9)?
   ______________

   Sure. Do you believe God has power, too?

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   24). What is the more common theme of the Bible regarding the prophets with accompanying signs and wonders?

   A). The presence of signs and wonders are proof of them being true prophets of God.

   B). That false prophets will mislead many and they will use signs and wonders.

   __________________________

   I would use ‘evidence’ rather than proof for A. I have not counted individual references to all true and all lying signs and wonders. Just based on reading the Bible, I would think there are more references to true prophets than false prophets. Most of the prophets mentioned up through Kings are true–a sizeable number of references, until you start getting to references to the prophets of Baal and the one references to Zedekiah opposing Miciah. There are some references to false prophets in Jeremiah and prophets acting as false shepherds in Ezekiel. I would think there are more references to true prophets in the New Testament.

   So I think there are more references that lean toward the ‘A’ category, but we need to beware of the B category.

   Do you accept that only B is true and reject A in these days and times?

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5. Great post and series of questions.. thank you for sharing and thank you to those that replied.

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6. Sorry, but in answering all the questions I would mostly be repeating what’s already been said.
   However I would point out re Q4 that the Jews had a nasty habit of killing prophets…

   Also, re Q6, firstly it is illegal to stone people, secondly they often don’t stone them because they (sadly) don’t actually discern between the true and false. I wonder if after the New Testament prophets had judged each other’s prophecies, the false prophets were stoned? Maybe we should look into some stoning… but first we’ll have to start judging some prophecy.

   These issues are very important (well, life and death actually), and unfortunately there is a tendency these days to assume anything supernatural is from God. The church needs to be reminded of the need for both spiritual discernment and simply knowing what the Bible actually says.

   What is interesting though is that there is a parallel trend whereby the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is essentially mainstream (at least in this part of the world) – very few Christians oppose it – but many or it seems most people brought up in or converted into the Church don’t have a clue about these things (or all sorts of things for that matter), and there really is very little operation of the gifts of the Spirit in church life. I guess the lack of Biblical teaching and knowledge is one of the reasons for the lack of discernment, but I’m sure most Church leaders have been around long enough that they don’t have any excuse.

   Pentecostals – get rid of your motivational speakers and your concerts, and get back to your roots – preaching the Word of God, and doing what it says.

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7. I agree with all the above written by fellow charismatics!

   I am apalled at what goes on for “charismatic” and Pentecostal christiantiy today.

   However, we still believe and operate in the gifts of the Spirit.

   One thing I would like to say is that I got a revelation one day where I left the “revival syndrome”….

   Revival is not biblical.

   Today’s charismatic christianity is what you get when you mix it with revivalism, and some sort of New Age positive confession.

   The real message of Pentecost is that God wants to live inside of men through His Spirit to change them, and to give them power to help change the world.

   Revival is the saints.

   God’s plan for the church is the saints!

   Its not revival, its the saints!

   Christ in us the hope of glory.
   Creation is longing for the saints to be revealed.
   The mystery of the ages is revealed in the saints.
   We have these treasures in jars of clay.
   The kingdom of God is inside of you….

   I could go on and on.
   Revival places the emphasis on God’s “manifest” presence.
   Biblical charismatic christianity places emphasis on God’s presence inside of every believer.

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8. Fact is: God is everywhere and that includes charismatic meetings. God gives according to our faith. Can’t separate the wheat from the tares without harming the wheat. pray for them and let it go. peace 🙂

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9. Pentecostalism is THE new Roman Catholicism – a global false Christian heretical group of people who have become their own religion unto themselves separate from all others just like Roman Catholicism.

   Pentecostalism nor Roman Catholicism is Biblical Christianity. No religion which exists and claims the name of Jesus and then adds new revelations/prophecies is of the True God. The Bible is finished and it is the only revelation we have from the Creator.

   Secondly, Todd Bentley, Hinn, TB Joshua, Popoff, Roberts, Dollar, Copeland, and all the rest of all these Pentecostals you see on tv worldwide on their own networks like TBN, Emmanuel TV, GOD TV, etc. are in general actually no more then con artists who are atheists secretly. They learned how simple it is to scam simple minded Pentecostal women out of their money.

   Watch the documentary Marjoe to see one of the fathers of Pentecostalism con artist healing ministries – Marjoe Gortner, who finally came clean publicly and admitted everything he did was a scam taught to him by his mother from when he was a child, he is an athiest who used the name of Jesus and pentecostal propaganda to leech millions out of desperate and simple minded pentecostal types. Most all modern pentecostal preachers take after him. It is one big scam, the whole pentecostal healing ‘ministry’.

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10. The entire movement is built on sand from the beginning. Google “the strange history of Pentecostalism” and the common “spirit” thread” is easy to see. Especially read any biography of Mary Etter, who lost six out of seven children, and compare with the letter to Thyatira. Note that Jesus excuses a few from the general condemnation and also note that (Revelation 1:3) these letters are not meant to bless churches, they are meant to show the individual what lies they might hold true, to correct them.
    This whole latter rain, manifest sons of God, apostasy, is prophesied clearly in 2 Thess 2. The term “strong delusion” is misleading. If you study the Greek in context of the whole it becomes obvious that it should read “a delusion of supernatural power.” The delusion comes upon those who do not love the truth.
    Speaking gibberish and chaos is certainly not of God. if you cannot picture Jesus acting a certain way, then don’t do it. But if you can really imagine Jesus gibbering and convulsing, laughing at nothing or laying on the ground and giving “spiritual birth” to something, then receive it, and good luck with all that. All who say they are a prophet are false. The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy. That means that the NT prophet is one who God reveals His Word to with understanding and timeliness. Not these mystics giving personal “prophecy” to people like a common witch. Such have a spirit of divination in them, a demon, not anything holy at all.
    If you take the time to look you will find that every single one of these so-called prophets claims that they ascend to heaven. See, our enemy must declare himself. What they are really relating is Satan’s speech in Jer. 14.
    I am Spirit filled, a disciple of Christ, chosen, a son of God. And I am given to read the Word with understanding, in the true spirit of prophecy. Every gift of God is His indwelling Spirit but no one who seeks the gifts will ever have the Spirit of God within them. God’s children seek His Kingdom, His will, not power or adventure. Signs and wonders follow me but they are Godly and gentle, not a circus, and are meant only for a few, or one. I am blessed to walk in His commission, to witness healing, cast out demons and to preach His gospel.
    That anyone is healed has nothing to do with anything but faith in God. God can honor faith no matter what man spoke it or prayed about it or laid on hands. Men have nothing to do with any power from God at all.
    Christ said, “Behold, I have told you all things.” That alone proves that every “prophet” who adds to the Word or offers any personal prophecy at all to be a liar and of Satan. Study His Word or go to Hell. It is what it is. “My people perish for lack of knowledge.” Shalom

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11. I don’t plan to answer the questions, I am not charismatic, nor do I oppose it. A big concern is, the improper use of it makes it easy for people to be decieved, like Todd Bentley, Creflo dollar, Leroy Thompson, Kenneth Copeland, and the list can go on and on, most of these people couldn’t make it in conservative churches. But it doesn’t mean that prosperity and false gospels are immune to non-charismatics, look at Joel Osteen.

    I have read the bible quite a few times, but I can honestly say I would be foolish if I said I understood everything to make a stand either way on charismatics.

    Here is something I think God has revealed to me, feel free to debate it or disagree as you interpret the bible, I’m just telling you as I see it.

    In Acts 15, the Jewish Christians were at the point where they were no longer going to consider Gentiles Christian unless they became circumcised. When those at Antoich heard it they sent Barnabas and Paul to talk to them. The bible isn’t clear whether they talked theology or debated scriptures (i’m sure they did though), but by the FRUIT that God had been producing in the Gentiles was the fact that closed the dispute. In the letters from James or whoever it was, to the Gentiles told them that circumcision wasn’t required, but they had to do a few other things, some which were actually of the law of the Spirit, others like not eating animals strangled is not a law that Gentiles have to follow, but for they brethren weaker in faith, the Jews, they shouldn’t do it (see Romans 14).

    In the same way I believe today our disputes can be resolved in the same way, we can’t budge in the fact that works aren’t required for salvation (circumcision in this instant), see also Galatians which I believe is referring to this council in Jerusalem. But when it comes to arguments whether they are of law or not AFTER we are saved, we should err to the side of the most cautious for the weaker in faith, which is why Paul agreed to allow the Gentiles to be under the law, while in Romans and 1 Corinthians he says w/e is put in front of you eat it w/o doubting (going against what he said in the council). But he warned them NOT to do it if it would offend their brother. So charismatics shouldn’t be doing this stuff in front of us conservative people b/c we are weaker in faith in this area (1 Cor 14). At the same time conservatives shouldn’t go around bashing charismatics who are true Christians just b/c it doesn’t line up w/ the way we do things, we should judge as should they, but the FRUIT that is produced.

    This debate can go on and on, haha and i’m sure it will until the end of the world, but I think we need to find commonground in the fact that it’s through Jesus Christ salvation occurs, not by our works. We do need to point out these false teachers though, Joel Osteen and the charismatic false ones alike, if the focus is on us or our power it’s false, the focus needs to be on dying to ourselves that Christ may be shown to the world. This is just how I read the scriputres, I could be wrong but i thought I would share this w/ you all. God bless, peace!

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12. 1. If it goes against Scripture, he is wrong.
    2. People need a leader and love chasing after sensationalism.
    3. It’s called religion and ritual. It’s a false sense of herding the sheep, instead of leading them.
    4. It’s called Microwave Christianity. I want it now! “Christians” can’t wait on God so they have to find another way.
    5. It’s called freedom in Christ. Long gone were the days where “Christians” conducted themselves in a holy, orderly and respectful manner. Now anything goes. Where there is confusion, the Holy Spirit will never be found.
    6. It’s called selective Christianity. They will tithe but not offer animal sacrifices. They follow the Sabbath, but cut the lawn on Sunday. They pick and choose and make a “smorgasbord” for their appetites.
    7. No one wants to hear doom and gloom. The reason they constantly talk about lollipops and sunshine is if the leaders make the people feel good, they will be more inclined to give.
    8. This was both a good thing and a bad thing. A good thing because it revealed their unbelieving hearts and where they stood, and a bad thing because it made it very clear that they would refuse to accept Jesus as the Son of God. In other words, it doomed them.
    9. It’s like a child constantly refusing to eat unless he has ice cream. You can’t force a child to eat, and unless the parent either gives in eventually or gets help the child will die because of his foolishness.
    10. They refuse to believe unless they have a sign. It’s like a woman marrying a man for his money, her motives are all wrong.
    11. No. He was rebuking them for their hard hearts. They needed evidence rather than just having faith to believe and taking Christ’s word for it all.
    12. No, just as Christ rebuked the people for their unbelief, Paul was basically saying the same thing. Neither could believe and just have faith, both needed evidence.
    13. Refer to answer 6.
    14. Obviously Paul must have sinned. He acted in unbelief and was outside of God’s will, this is according to Fred Price, anyway.
    15. Yes it is. If our focus in this life is comfortability and leisure, then our priorities are messed up. If we are focusing on Christ and His Gospel, then we will have no time to think about our own wants and desires.
    16. Who wants to suffer, unless your perspective is changed and you realize that there is a bigger picture that includes suffering. Nothing of value in the world or in God’s will comes without something or someone suffering. The flesh rebels against suffering and wants to be stroked and coddled. This is what Freud called ‘Id’. Wikipedia defines this as: “The id is part of the id, ego, and super-ego, the three parts of the psychic apparatus in Freudian psychology (in English translations of Freud’s work)”
    17. Refer to answer 7. No one wants a message on hell, damnation and death.
    18. Obviously Someone wants to get our attention over the subject???
    19. I think they accept it to a degree, but it’s always ‘those other nuts’. It can’t be the nut, ah, I mean the anointed preacher I follow, because that would mean that I am wrong, and well…
    20. Any sign or wonder that takes the focus off of God and puts it on either the performer or the sign, is from Satan. God promised He would send a strong delusion, so in essence they are from God, He has ordained them and given the enemy the power to deceive.
    21. Just look at the church…Satan comes across just as holy, meek, humble and “good” as anyone out there. Luciferin gives off light, but is a false light that has no benefits.
    22. It is ordained by God to accomplish both His and Satan’s goals with mankind. Those who’s eyes are open and sensitive to their Master’s voice will turn away, but those who are deceived, will gasp in awe.
    23. Most definitely yes. There are even reports of Satan casting out his own demons. Does Heidi Baker ring a bell?
    24. a. Signs and wonders were used much by OT prophets for God dealt with man physically rather than spiritually, but the enemy used them as well to turn the people’s eyes away from God.
    b. The NT warns us that signs and wonders will be used exclusively to deceive the masses and condition them for the Antichrist’s arrival.

    I do not claim to be a theologian, but see Christianity in a simplistic way, cutting through the fat and getting to the point. As far as I see these questions are straight forward and common sense, but alas, many will try to argue, justify and make excuses…nothing new under the sun, eh?

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13. Wow. I’m new here, and love this site, but I am deeply grieved by this post. I have experienced first hand the excesses and abuses that abound in the Charismatic movement, and I have sustained considerable injury for blithely following every whim and wonder that came along, but I have come to reject much of it. I was careless about sound doctrine, just happy to have my “personal relationship with Jesus” and worship Him in full abandon, both at home on my own, and in the corporate setting. I found doctrine hard to understand, and “fundamentalists’ to be overbearing and unkind. My “anything goes” mentality led me straight into licentiousness and then to the door of Roman Catholicism, against which, in horror, I found I had no good argument. As I began to examine my potpourri of a belief system, I found that much of what I had been embracing was kindred spirit with Rome, and I have since rejected it. Further honest study led me to embrace the doctines of grace, and so I stand in this today. I am fully persuaded of the Reformed view of Soteriology, but as for the Reformed position on Pneumatology, I cannot go there. Nor can I accept infant baptism. I have honestly tried to understand the Reformed position in this area, but truly do not find support for it in scripture. Coram Deo, I have had much respect for you and your posts, but this post seems to me to be mean spirited, and I recoil. I am so sorry.

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14. Kaydee,

    While we’re always glad to have new visitors, I must say that I’m sorry to hear that you found this post to be objectionable. Although I don’t generally seem to want for objections to my posts, this isn’t actually one of mine – it’s The Pilgrim’s. This being said, would you care to elaborate on what you feel to be “mean spirited” in the original post?

    In Christ,
    CD

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15. CD,
    I will try. It is mean spirited to make categorical implications about the very large and diverse group of people that represent Charismatics, and Pilgrim’s post does address “all Charismatics.” One could do the same thing with virtually any other denominational or non-denominational group, I would say. (For example, Baptists have earned a reputation, at least in my view, of being dogmatic, argumentative, and intolerant. Lutherans are the frozen chosen. Don’t we all know the stereotypes?) I believe that the distinctions made in Scripture are simply between true believers and those who profess to be believers but who are, in reality, unconverted. (I am sorry I confused you with the author of the post. I noticed that it was The Pilgrim’s after the fact of my own posting.) I did not sense honest inquiry in the questions posed by the Pilgrim, only that he was attempting to pigeon-hole all Charismatics into his pre-determined answers, and consequent stereotype. There is a sense of accusation in nearly every question, and I felt it implied that if you are Charismatic, you are a wicked, adulterous signs seeker and not very smart either.

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16. Kaydee:

    As I look at each one of these questions, it draws my focus to stopping and really thinking about what the Scriptures say in regard to these specific things. I was an enthusiastic member of a Charismatic church for years, but looking at these questions unbiasedly, I do not take these as mean spirited nor accusatory, but thought provoking. We could come up with a whole set of questions to address some predominant themes or mindsets of other groups (Liberals, Emergents, Ecumenists, etc.) also. And I would hope we could take those as thought provoking as well. Not as personal attacks, but to draw our attention to what the Scriptures say. Because, isn’t it most important to be faithful to Christ and His word?

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