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The crowd or the cross?

The Jehovah’s Witnesses deny it, the Mormons reject it, the Gentiles are offended by it, the Jews stumble over it.

Oh, the wonderful cross.

29 thoughts on “The crowd or the cross?”

  1. (1 Cor 9:27 KJV) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    (1 Tim 6:12 KJV) Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    I agree that the Bible clearly says our ongoing Christian walk is a daily spiritual battle with Satan, and sadly with some other of Satan’s followers, men and women too. We are to continually chose God’s way and not Satan, and not rather to give in to the devil, and then falsely justify it.

    (Acts 7:51 KJV) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    (2 Tim 3:8 KJV) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

    (James 4:7 KJV) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

    I continue to get, read grossly unrespectable, unacceptable absurd, false Responses, and false justifications from people and supporters of those who have wrongfully indulged into sins of drugs, smoking, alcohol, stealing or what ever all of my life even from even liars, professing Christians, ongoing church goers, all persons whose minds, habits now are rather controlled by Satan clearly as well, Now supporting such bad acts, habits, persons makes you in fact an unacceptable accomplice in these matters too.

    YOU ARE STILL KNOWN BY WHAT YOU DO NOW.

    (Mat 7:18 KJV) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    (Luke 6:43 KJV) For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    (Mat 7:19 KJV) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    (Mat 7:20 KJV) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    (Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    (Luke 10:17 KJV) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

    (Rom 8:7 KJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    (1 Pet 5:5 KJV) Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

    (Prov 27:5 KJV) Open rebuke is better than secret love.

    (Prov 27:6 KJV) Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

    (Eccl 7:5 KJV) It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.

    (Eccl 7:6 KJV) For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool: this also is vanity.

    Mr. Spurgeon should have practice what he preached firstly for he could not give up his sin of smoking a cigar even. And too many other pastors did not and could not give up alcohol, drunkenness, adultery, cheating, lying stealing,, and what else?

    Genuine Born Again Evangelical Christians are total abstainers from smoking, drugs, alcohol, cheating, lying, stealing, tax evasions, pornography, or rather all personal vices.

    Reality! These days it is too hard to tell the difference between secular persons and even evangelical pastors, Christians they seem to do the same things too. Why are alcoholics always in denial? and why do they often lie, cheat, steal also now? Because if they do admit the truth they are alcoholics, sinners too they do have now to repent of the sin of disobeying God’s word about being drunk too.. so they take the ostrich denial approach instead too often. Alcoholism still is a sin of a deliberate, personal choice, and to be set free you have to admit your sin, confess it, renounce it, ask God for forgiveness through Jesus Christ as well.. It is not only wrong for the average person it is also especially wrong for leaders in the government, politicians. It is amazing how one can quickly spot an alcoholic, while they cannot still see their sin, and how quick they are to oppose themselves being exposed now too..

    I admit I had lost all respect for the supposedly great preacher Spurgeon who was so ready to preach to others about their sins, but he himself now could not resist the Temptation of a cigar. Similar we find out that other preachers could not give up smoking too.. Look at this reference in regard to AB Simpson, the past founder of the Christian Missionary Alliance denomination now too. “The Man, the movement, and the mission-A documentary of the C&MA” Cut directly from their national web site. It was the custom for the ministers of the district to meet together to discuss all things common. This little reunion, in its proper sequence, was held one day at the Manse. And unaccountably strange odor of tobacco smoke began to steal upstairs. Suddenly the study door flew open and a towering figure of fury – all of four feet, one inch in its stocking feet – stood at the threshold. “SMOKING! Out of this house!” said Grannie Simpson, and in a body the ministerial association moved. https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=15796002&postID=3424830162204895882 http://reversion-clause.com/

    (Eccl 7:7 KJV) Surely oppression maketh a wise man mad; and a gift destroyeth the heart.

    (Eccl 7:8 KJV) Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.

    (Eccl 7:9 KJV) Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

    Genuine Born Again even Evangelical Christians are total abstainers from smoking, drugs, alcohol, cheating, lying, stealing, tax evasions, pornography, or rather all personal vices. And if you took 2 martinis or 2 beers a day you are an alcoholic. Alcoholism is a crime and not a disease, it is a crime, it is just as lethal, bad, and it is really unacceptable as selling or taking bad drugs too. Canada’s bad drug problem, drunk driving, alcoholism is increasing not just amongst the teens, but also in the work place, in the government now as well even amongst the civil and public servants. Most major home violence, car or truck accidents are still associated with alcohol now too and not speeding. It’s a fact that drinking alcohol can seriously damage one’s health and cause permanent brain damage as well .Alcohol may lead to liver problems, a variety of cancers as well as forms of osteoporosis and depression, and studies are showing, too, that women are more susceptible to the ill effects of alcohol than are men. . Not one cent of taxpayer’s money should be ever used in the governments, civil and public servants, expense accounts to buy alcohol, wine or beer.

    Reality! These days it is too hard to tell the difference between secular persons and even evangelical pastors, Christians they seem to do the same things too. Why are alcoholics and smokers now too, sinners, always in denial? and why do they often lie, cheat, steal also now? Because if they do admit the truth they are alcoholics, sinners too they do have now to repent of the sin of disobeying God’s word about being drunk too.. so they take the ostrich denial approach instead too often. Alcoholism still is a sin of a deliberate, personal choice, and to be set free you have to admit your sin, confess it, renounce it, ask God for forgiveness through Jesus Christ as well.. It is not only wrong for the average person it is also especially wrong for leaders in the government, politicians. It is amazing how one can quickly spot an alcoholic, while they cannot still see their sin, and how quick they are to oppose themselves being exposed now too..

    and what other pastoral, supposedly acceptable Christian vices now are now being PERMITTED falsely today, the handing out of beer, wine, alcoholic beverages, playboy, pornography, acts of cheating, lying, stealing, STEALING THE TITHES, adultery, tax evasions still? WE ALL DO NEED to have a right attitudes, WALK WITH JESUS CHRIST EVEN all of leaders, pastors, elders too, and they have to lead by a good personal example too.

    Even the most anointed man or woman, preacher of God clearly still can be wrong, biased, have a hidden agenda, limited, (or just shallow) in their understanding or interpretation of certain Bible topics, subjects. Do not believe any man or women, rather solely Take God’s word for it.

    We all should by now know that alcoholism is a terrible sin that now damages the person’s brain, affects their ability to work, to drive a car, and negatively affects their own behavior and affects many others too. The same reality is true of one taking now bad drugs as well. So I was also similarly shocked, surprised to discover the the falsely professing evangelical Christian Stephen Harper our Prime Minister likes to consume wine, alcohol, and he buys it for others as well. Beyond a Biblical doubt the Genuine Born Again Evangelicals are total abstainers, like me, I never drink or touch wine or alcohol, at any time, nor do I give playboy, pornography, wine or wine glasses to anyone.

    ““Dr. Daniel Akin, President of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary has written an article in favor of the famous Resolution #5 (Resolution calling for total opposition to alcohol). Alcohol is the number one drug problem among teenagers. (1 Cor. 8:13; 9:19-22; 10:32-33). Because I am an example to others, I will make certain no one ever walks the road of sorrow called alcoholism because they saw me take a drink and assumed, “if it is alright for him it is alright for me.” No, I will choose to set an uncompromising example of abstinence because I love them. I will seek my joy and filling in the Spirit not in alcohol. I love the Phillips translation of Ephesians 5:18 which reads, “Don’t get your stimulus from wine (for there is always the danger of excessive drinking), but let the Spirit stimulate your souls.” Psalm 4:7-8 adds, “You [O Lord] have put more joy in my heart than they have when their grain and wine abound. In peace I will both lie down and sleep; for you alone, O Lord, make me dwell in safety.” There is no record that Jesus drank strong drink, As a pastor or church leader, would I demand abstinence for leadership? Absolutely! The principle of Proverbs 31:4-5 is appropriately applied here, “It is not for Kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.” “

    (1 Cor 11:28 KJV) But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (Prov 3:33 KJV) The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.
    Jesus himself had said that professing to be a Christian is not enough, one rather can tell what a person is really like by what he does, a True Christian is one who evidently is controlled by the Spirit of God and not by self, sin, a real Christian is one where thus anyone can clearly see by the evidence of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, including even self control.

    Matt 3:8 Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance [let your lives prove your change of heart];

    Gal 5:23 Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].

    Matt 7:16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit. 18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration]. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. 20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits. 1 Tim 3:2 Now a bishop (superintendent, overseer) must give no grounds for accusation {but} must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, circumspect {and} temperate {and} self-controlled; [he must be] sensible {and} well behaved {and} dignified and lead an orderly (disciplined) life; [he must be] hospitable [showing love for and being a friend to the believers, especially strangers or foreigners, and be] a capable {and} qualified teacher,

    Alcoholics, wine drinkers, smokers, drug users, cheaters, liars, slandereres, absuers, liars, tax evaders too they all tend to have evidentially lost their self control..

    I have often rightfully said to many preachers I would rather see them first by example live the life of Christ instead of merely preaching it others. Preaching the Gospel is not an valid alternative to living it. I even do know People who profess to be Christians and they are Alcoholics too.. but they are not Christians… They fool themselves only as to who they still really are too.

    By their own fruits Jesus said to us all you can tell what they are really like still.

    ..(Prov 16:25 KJV) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    (Mat 7:20 KJV) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

    > I did not know that smoking is a sin?

    Impaired means when Mental awareness, alertness and function do also come under a dulling, slowing effect. This hinders our mental ability in everyday activity and restricts or cuts off our mental fellowship with the Holy Spirit speaking to our mind from our spirit. A person who has the smoking or drinking habit, in honesty, must label themselves an “addict” too. in bondage to Satan and the flesh and the lust thereof. Alcoholism, Smoking, lying, stealing, slander is demonic, which is why it is so hard to stop on your own and they all are not compatible with the Christian experience. These sinful problems are next forcing negative consequences on other “innocent” people Co-workers, family and even children are victims . Christians are definitely thus not to be “stumbling blocks” to others. Matthew 18: 6, 7, “But who so shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offenses! For it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!”

    Also smoking is “burning incense to other (demon) gods”. II Kings 22:17, II Kings 23:5; II Chronicles 28:25, 34:24, 34:25; Jeremiah 1:16, 7:9, 11:12, 19:4; Chapter 44, 48:35.

    To receive complete freedom from these sinful bondages, the Believer must see his “habit” or being “hooked” as a spiritually rooted problem and confess it as a deliberate sin of Disobedience to God too. Acknowledging lust, Alcohol, tobacco, cigarettes, drugs, lying, stealing, marijuana and smoking as sin is prerequisite. Personal Confession of the sin according to (1 John 1:9 KJV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.and we all must choose to submit to God according to (James 4:7 KJV) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    next , places the Believer on proper ground for the unclean spirits to be cast out of them

    and whether Smoking it is legal or not legal basically is not the issue in the sight of God.. but when you clearly have lost self control, it also alters your judgment and your ability to perceive reality. on top of that you now are a prisoner to a bad habit of smoking , the very clear source of the bad habit is the devil now as well and not God.. and if you cannot see this it is either cause you do not want to or are in false denial… Half of the world knows that smoking cigarettes even is bad for you, it is a vice, and it causes cancer, linked to gum disease, destroys the body and you did not realize it was sinful? either you are lying to me, lying yourself others or you are being deliberate ignorant. Smoking is not without potential real negative consequences and yes anyone would be an absolute fool not to factor that truth now as well . One cannot honestly claim to be using alcohol, smoking or marijuana for any purpose other than to falsely intoxicate oneself. to lose self control. One is not getting you closer to God by being intoxicated , but moving you away from Him. You’re doing the weed for YOURSELF, serving the sinful sinful self, the flesh now in reality. You are to die to self, the flesh and all of it’s lust thereof as a Christian now still too. The ends do not justify now the mans still as well.

    1 Corinthians 10:31 (King James Version) Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

    1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (King James Version) 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Christians are always to remain SOBER too. 1 Thessalonians 5:8 (King James Version) 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    Sober, obedient and not given to lusts of the flesh. 1 Peter 1:13-14 (King James Version) 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

    Ephesians 5:11-21 (King James Version) 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms.

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  3. Jesus who was without sin still took a whip and chased the crooks out of the temple..

    Asking a person rightfully to repent is not the same as stoning them and you should have known that already too..

    (Mat 4:17 KJV) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    (Luke 17:3 KJV) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

    (Phil 2:15 KJV) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

    (1 Tim 5:20 KJV) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

    (2 Tim 4:2 KJV) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

    (Titus 1:13 KJV) This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

    (Titus 2:15 KJV) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

    (Rev 3:19 KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

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  4. I’m reading Sproul’s The Truth of the Cross and I’m really enjoying it, so this video ties in with me real good right now

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  7. Jay,

    Let’s be real here; you know exactly what I mean. Yes, LDS does reject the cross.

    As a Mormon, have you ever been asked why you don’t have crosses displayed anywhere on your wards or temples? What is your typical, indoctrinated response?

    “We choose to focus on Christ’s life . . . blah, blah, blah, . . . if Jesus died in an electrical chair would you wear that around your neck . . . blah, blah, blah . . . etc.”

    Not only does LDS have disdain for the very image of what facilitated the shedding of the blood of my Savior to provide redemption for those who trust in Him (because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins) but LDS have utter contempt for the message of the cross and the finality of the redemptive work on the cross as well.

    How do I draw this conclusion? I’m glad you asked. I’m always more than happy to quote LDS prophets, presidents, and leaders when given the opportunity.

    Rejecting the very cross where atonement took place:
    In the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ took upon himself the sins of all mankind.
    Gospel Principles, Page 70, 1997

    The Savior atoned for our sins by suffering in Gethsemane and by giving his life on the cross. It is impossible for us to fully understand how he suffered for all our sins. In the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of our sins caused him to feel such agony and heartbreak that he bled from every pore (see D&C 19:18-19). Gospel Principles, Page 73, 1997

    The night preceding His crucifixion, Jesus Christ . . . . took upon Himself the burden of the sins of mankind from Adam to the end of the world. Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through The Ages, Page 182

    The insufficiency of the sacrifice on the cross:
    It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.
    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 4 Page 54

    The insufficient sacrifice upon the cross, requiring our help:
    Jesus did not shed his blood to save us in our sins, but to open a way whereby man might obtain forgiveness through Faith, Repentance, and Baptism: and no man can be saved who neglects either of these principles. Orson Pratt, The Seer, Page 255

    Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective in our lives, we must strive to obey him and repent of our sins. Gospel Principles, Page 75,
    1997

    Christ’s atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part. Gospel Principles, Page 75, 1997

    The Latter-day Saints believe in the efficacy of the blood of Christ. They believe that through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel they obtain a remission of sins. Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 133

    The insufficient sacrifice upon the cross, requiring our own blood to be shed:
    Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine and taught in all the standard works of the Church. Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 135

    We must believe that this same Jesus was crucified for the sins of the world, that is for the original sin, not the actual individual transgressions of the people; not but that the blood of Christ will cleanse from all sin, all who are disposed to act their part by repentance, and faith in his name.
    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 13 Page 143

    The insufficiency of the one who died upon the cross:
    We believe that we have a correct idea of the character of the Son . . . . He was more or less contaminated with fallen nature. While he was here, in a body that his mother Mary bore him, he was more or less connected with and influenced by this nature that we have received. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 6 Page 95

    All will agree in this, that [Christ] is the prototype or standard of salvation; or, in other words, that he is a saved being. Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, Section 7 Verse 9

    That Jesus attained eternal perfection following His resurrection is confirmed in the Book of Mormon. Russell M. Nelson, Ensign & Conference Report, 1995

    The need to have continual sacrifices:
    It is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e., the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus] was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in the future: but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the priesthood, or with the prophets. Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 4 Page 211

    Salvation is twofold: General—that which comes to all men irrespective of a belief (in this life) in Christ—and, Individual—that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. But man may commit certain grievous sins—according to his light and knowledge—that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone—so far as in his power lies—for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail. Joseph Fielding Smith,
    Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 134

    Contempt for the blood of Christ as seen in the sacrament:
    Jesus gave his disciples wine when he introduced the sacrament. However, in a latter-day revelation he has said that it doesn’t matter what we eat and drink during the sacrament as long as we remember him (see D&C 27:2-3). Today, Latter-day Saints drink water instead of wine. Gospel Principles, Page 153, 1997

    The emblems of bread and water remind us of the Savior’s bruised body and of his blood, which he shed for us. Gospel Principles, Page 173, 1997

    During the sacrament, we partake of bread and water. We do this in remembrance of his flesh and his blood which he gave as a sacrifice for us. Gospel Principles, Page 151, 1997

    I could go on (and on) but this is more than enough to conclude that LDS rejects the image of the cross, the message of the cross, the preaching of the cross and the work of the cross, thus, LDS “rejects the cross” and everything it stands for. It can’t be any clearer.

    – The Pilgrim

    P.S. By the way, where did you disappear to? We were discussing your issues with the cult flyer in this post and then you upped and vanished.

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  8. As a Mormon, have you ever been asked why you don’t have crosses displayed anywhere on your wards or temples? What is your typical, indoctrinated response?

    “We choose to focus on Christ’s life . . . blah, blah, blah, . . . if Jesus died in an electrical chair would you wear that around your neck . . . blah, blah, blah . . . etc.”

    Is focusing on Christ’s life a bad thing? I’ve never heard the electrical chair answer before, but it makes sense to me.

    Rejecting the very cross where atonement took place:

    I not really sure how any of the quotes you share really demonstrate your point. I’m assuming that you believe our sins were paid for on the cross where Mormons believe that was accomplished in Gethsemane. I just shrug my shoulders and say, “why does it matter?” Isn’t it more important that our sins were paid for?

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  9. I’m assuming that you believe our sins were paid for on the cross where Mormons believe that was accomplished in Gethsemane.

    Jay, if it was not the cross of Christ that saved us, then why did Jesus make so many references to the cross? Why did He tell us to “take up your cross?” If it was in Gethsemane that He paid the price for our sins, then why did He not make more mention of it? In fact, why did He NEVER mention ANYTHING about Gethsemane?

    Matthew 16:24–Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    1st Corinthians 1:18–For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    Ephesians 2:16–And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby…

    Philippians 2:8–And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Colossians 1:20–And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Hebrews 12:2–Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Where, in any of these places (or anywhere else, for that matter), does it say anything about Gethsemane? We are never told to “take up our Gethsemane.” We are never told anything about “the preaching of Gethsemane.” It was the Cross where Jesus made atonement for our sins–not Gethsemane.

    Why does it matter? Because it wasn’t Jesus’ agony in the garden that paid for our sins. It was His death on the cross. To believe anything else is to not believe at all.

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  10. The insufficiency of the sacrifice on the cross:

    It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.
    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 4 Page 54

    This statement I disagree with the same as you do. Christ sacrifice was a complete sacrifice, not a partial one.

    Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective in our lives, we must strive to obey him and repent of our sins. Gospel Principles, Page 75,
    1997

    I’m not sure how this says that Christ’s sacrifice is insufficient. Christ calls us to repentance. Why shouldn’t we repent of sins? We will never be perfect hence the need to repent and strive to be more like our savior. Christ made it possible to be forgiven but it is up to the individual to accept His sacrifice or reject it. If they reject it it cannot have any effect in their life. I think that is what repentance is all about, having faith in Christ and accepting him as our Savior.

    The insufficient sacrifice upon the cross, requiring our own blood to be shed:
    Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine and taught in all the standard works of the Church. Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 135

    I’m not so sure this was Joseph Smith’s teaching, though it may be in DOS. Lots of things were attributed to JS many decades after he died that were never taught by him. So I don’t really take someone saying that JS said it as doctrine. Even if JS did say it (which I doubt, sounds a lot more like BY) I don’t feel bound to believe it, and I don’t.

    The need to have continual sacrifices:
    It is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e., the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus] was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in the future: but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the priesthood, or with the prophets. Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 4 Page 211

    So you don’t sacrifice anything for Christ? I believe we are called to sacrifice (time, talents, money, etc.) to serve God. That’s all I see in this quote. I’m not sure where you’re going with it.

    Contempt for the blood of Christ as seen in the sacrament:
    Jesus gave his disciples wine when he introduced the sacrament. However, in a latter-day revelation he has said that it doesn’t matter what we eat and drink during the sacrament as long as we remember him (see D&C 27:2-3). Today, Latter-day Saints drink water instead of wine. Gospel Principles, Page 153, 1997

    Again, I’m not sure how you are pulling out of the quotes above that Mormons have contempt for the blood of Christ. The sacrament is done to remember life of Christ, the blood he spilt and the body he sacrificed for us. I don’t see how using water instead of wine really makes a difference.

    I could go on (and on) but this is more than enough to conclude that LDS rejects the image of the cross, the message of the cross, the preaching of the cross and the work of the cross, thus, LDS “rejects the cross” and everything it stands for. It can’t be any clearer.

    Why is it so important to accept an “image of the cross”? Isn’t it about accepting Christ? I don’t know that LDS members or the Church for that matter reject the cross (whatever that means) but I do know that they accept Christ and to me that is the most important thing not symbols. You could go on but I doubt your words would be anymore convincing than what you have already written.

    P.S. By the way, where did you disappear to? We were discussing your issues with the cult flyer in this post and then you upped and vanished.

    Yes, I apologize. I will post my response but frankly I got too busy. I’ll post my response at some point but I will not have any more time to spend on it.

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  11. Perhaps there is a third way that combines both these ways together?

    I don’t understand why there has to be a duality when there could be unity.

    I’m not Christian, but I do find faith to be helpful. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to give up on myself as well.

    Plus, the crowd does NOT say rely on yourself, it says conform. So there’s a fourth way which is complete self reliance.

    So here are the possibilties:

    1. Self only
    2. Cross only
    3. Other faith than cross only
    4. Crowd only

    Each of these can be combined, you have a set of 1, 2 or 1, 3 or 1, 2, 4 and so on. I’m not good at math, but I count:

    4 of each: 1, 2, 3, OR 4
    9 of two: 1, 2 OR 1, 3 and so on
    3 of three (I think) 1, 2, 3 OR 1, 3, 4 and so on
    1 of all four

    So there are 17 combinations. If you add more religions or more groups setting, you have more possibilties.

    It’s a wondefully diverse world of choices we have. Enjoy the selection process and don’t exclude any choice.

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  12. Jesus said, “I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life, NO ONE comes to the Father but BY ME.” John 14:6

    Acts 4:12 “Nor is there salvation in ANY other, for there is NO other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

    No other choices remain but one and that’s through Christ alone.

    God demands perfection to His Law in order to be declared righteous before Him, in order to go to heaven we must have a perfect righteousness, that is why we can ONLY look to Christ because we are sinners and could never attain perfection to God’s law. The law shows us what God expects…absolute perfection. He cursed Adam and Eve for ONE sin. One blemish we have will damn us forever.

    The law is a perfect reflection of God’s Holy Character and the standard for believers to please Him…which we could never do, but we could not attain, God, out of HIS great mercy and love, has provided it for us in His Precious Son who lived 33 years of perfectly obeying the law of God on sinner’s behalf. When God could have justly condemend us all to hell, (Which is what we deserve) He gave His Son.

    The only way anyone goes to heaven is by the righteousness of another…Jesus Christ, the Lord. Only perfect obedience is acceptable to God. James 2:10 says “For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking it all” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Galatians 3:10

    So, if you can be perfect, you can be declared righteous before God on your own, but since Psalm 51:5 says that even in my mother’s womb I was a sinner and conceived in sin and since we have broken God’s laws, there is no hope for us…Only ONE way and that is through the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

    There is no pick and choose method with God. It’s ONE way and that’s through HIS Son.
    Some questions to ask yourself: Have you ever lied? If yes, then what does that make you? A liar…Have you ever stolen? That makes you a theif. Have you ever lusted? Jesus said if you have lusted, you have committed adultery. That’s just three, but it only takes one to be guilty and that we ALL are. How could a just God allow a lying, theiving, adulterer into heaven and be Just? We are all guilty before God and we deserve nothing but His wrath. What kind of earlthy judge would look at a guilty criminal and say, “I forgive you, you may go” We would say that judge is unjust and must be fired. God can not just look at us and say, “I forgive you” Unless our crimes have been punished. He gave us HIS Son to die in our place! Christ took the wrath of God for us. God the Father killed His only Son, so He wouldnt have to kill us. He was getting to us, but Jesus stepped in the middle. So when Jesus prayed, “Let this cup pass from me” That was the cup of wrath that He was fixing to drink down for His people, so that now I no longer have to face God’s wrath! So Jesus Christ is sinner’s punishment and their righteousness.
    Glory to God alone! No flesh shall glory in His presence…The only way anyone gets into heaven is by having a perfect righteousness and that’s ONLY found in Christ and His righteousness ALONE. So you’re either trusting in yourself to be declared righteous (which will never do because our righteousnes is as filthy rags) OR you’re trusting in the precious, Pure, Undefiled, Beautiful righteousnss of Jesus Christ.

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  13. Leroy:

    There is only ONE TRUE FAITH. Wendi handled your false heretical ideals very well and I do not need to revisit that.

    Jay:

    It’s not the symbol that’s so important, Jay. Please don’t get hung up on that because that’s not the issue. It’s what the cross represents, and what happened on the cross. To claim “LDS focuses on His life” in the way that LDS do, they indirectly imply that we Christians, without warrant, do the contrary.

    Keep in mind if it were not for His death, everyone would still be in their sins and there would be no hope of redemption. We pay great attention to the death (burial and resurrection too) because His death is why He came (Mark 10:45). It was in that great selfless act of Love that He purchased His church with His own blood (Acts 20:28). This is the same Church that the gates of Hell would never prevail against and the same Church that He promised that He would be with for all eternity.

    If the “symbol” was the issue then I’d be Roman Catholic (LOL). I don’t even wear a cross (I’m sure you’re wondering). It’s not about a piece of metal or other trinket that people trivialize and there’s no power in a piece of jewelry.

    You guys (LDS) don’t even agree with Christianity on the very core essence of the what happened on the cross. It was such an affront to the false teachers of LDS that they subverted the work of the cross to the Garden of Gethsemane in spite of what Scripture says. Why?

    I guess when you have a Mormon version of Jesus not only are his origins and essence different than the true Jesus, but what he did in the garden and on the cross are also counterfeit.

    Jesus did not atone or pay for our sins in the garden, Jay, it was on the cross. Fourpointer covered this very well, so there’s no need to revisit.

    And regarding our “sacrifices” and adding to the Great Sacrifice, that is in perfect alliance with LDS’ heretical works-based salvation. It teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient and we have to somehow earn our way (same as Catholics and JW’s).

    It’s not repentance that’s the issue we have with LDS (and you know this), but it’s the works and efforts LDS says is required in addition to that forgiveness (and then you still have no assurance of salvation). This is heretical because now you’re saying the blood of Christ was insufficient and that the Creator of the universe needs our help. Utter blasphemy! But this is not something unexpected from a group that says Jesus was a polygamist, men can become gods, Adam is Jehovah, and the fall in the Garden of Eden was a “good” thing.

    LDS teachings reject every biblical and historical Christian aspect of the cross pertinent to salvation and this has been laid out abundantly clear in the above post. They reject the cross just like they reject the true Jesus of Nazareth as revealed in the Scriptures. However, with that said, they do accept their version of the cross (and Jesus, and atonement, and on and on). But their version does not line up with Scripture and will not save anyone from their sins.

    The facts have been laid bare for all to see and decide for themselves.

    – The Pilgrim

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  14. Wendi said: “So, if you can be perfect, you can be declared righteous before God on your own, but since Psalm 51:5 says that even in my mother’s womb I was a sinner and conceived in sin and since we have broken God’s laws, there is no hope for us…Only ONE way and that is through the righteousness of Jesus Christ.”

    I thoroughly disagree with your interpretation of Psalm 5:15. Children are innocent. They do not sin, much less an unborn child.

    Pilgrim said: “To claim “LDS focuses on His life” in the way that LDS do, they indirectly imply that we Christians, without warrant, do the contrary.

    You said yourself that you do because that’s why he came. Why not own that. I don’t think any LDS member would argue that His death on the cross wasn’t important. It was extremely important. The point is that Mormons focus on Christ’s teachings, the example He left for us to follow.

    I know your Church probably doesn’t do this but when I was in South America I would see Catholic Churches with gory statues of Christ with blood all over Him suffering. I know that happened and it moves me that He would suffer so much for me, but I don’t think it is a good thing to focus on. His teachings motivate me to unite with God more than focusing on his death. The cross is a symbol of His torture and death and I think its more productive to acknowledge that it happened, appreciate His sacrifice, but then focus mainly on His examples and teachings.

    Keep in mind if it were not for His death, everyone would still be in their sins and there would be no hope of redemption.

    Amen

    I don’t even wear a cross (I’m sure you’re wondering)

    It didn’t even cross my mind, but even if you did it wouldn’t offend me in the slightest.

    It was such an affront to the false teachers of LDS that they subverted the work of the cross to the Garden of Gethsemane in spite of what Scripture says. Why?

    I guess when you have a Mormon version of Jesus not only are his origins and essence different than the true Jesus, but what he did in the garden and on the cross are also counterfeit.

    I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that Mormons think Jesus’ suffering on the cross and in garden are counterfeit. Once again you state something that Mormons don’t really believe.

    Jesus did not atone or pay for our sins in the garden, Jay, it was on the cross. Fourpointer covered this very well, so there’s no need to revisit.

    I was unconvinced by the scriptures he quoted that Jesus paid for our sins on the Cross (not that I think it matters where he paid for our sins). The most important thing, that is lost sight of in this argument, is that Jesus did pay for our sins. He geographic location matters little to our salvation.

    And regarding our “sacrifices” and adding to the Great Sacrifice, that is in perfect alliance with LDS’ heretical works-based salvation. It teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient and we have to somehow earn our way (same as Catholics and JW’s).

    This is heretical because now you’re saying the blood of Christ was insufficient and that the Creator of the universe needs our help.

    I’m not sure how doing good works because we love God and want to obey Him translates into works for salvation. If God asked me live in the African bush for the rest of my life I’d do it because I love Him and would be obedient to what I was asked to do.

    But this is not something unexpected from a group that says Jesus was a polygamist, men can become gods, Adam is Jehovah, and the fall in the Garden of Eden was a “good” thing.

    But their version does not line up with Scripture and will not save anyone from their sins.

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  15. But this is not something unexpected from a group that says Jesus was a polygamist, men can become gods, Adam is Jehovah, and the fall in the Garden of Eden was a “good” thing.

    Well, I’ll just say that Mormons don’t “say” all the things you have accused them of saying. Yes I know that some of those things were the opinion of a few past leaders, but they are not Mormon doctrine just someones human mind trying to make sense of the things of God.

    But their version does not line up with Scripture and will not save anyone from their sins.

    I matches up much closer than many critics would like to admit. For example, I’m still waiting for someone to show me where Jesus taught about the Trinity. You’d think if something was so important He would have laid it out explicitly while He was here, but He didn’t. Sure you can infer it from the Bible but the evidence is much stronger for the Mormon point of view (Godhead 3 separate beings, God has body, Holy Ghost does not, Jesus is God’s son not God himself). This is probably my major stumbling block with joining any Protestant Church.

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  16. Jay,

    Children are not innocent. Romans 3 and Romans 5 tells us that we are all cursed and under the wrath of God…even children born. I have a 3 year old and let me tell you my child sins because my child is a sinner. He is selfish and wants his own way and when he doesn’t get it, he throws a fit. NO ONE had to teach him this. I did not have to sit down and teach him to pitch a fit. He is a natural born sinner and a good one. That’s why Proverbs tells us over and over to discipline our children.

    Read Leviticus 12:6 Parents had to sacrifice for a child that was born. The sacrifices required were to impress upon the mind of the parent the reality of original sin and that the child had inherited a sinful nature. No one is born innocent. We all inherit a sinful nature We are all guilty and condemned under the wrath of God because we’re all in Adam and it’s not my interpretation of Psalm 51:5, it’s what God says…period. What I belive about the verse doesn’t mean anything. God meant it one way. And to say that chidren are innocent is to take away from the glory of Christ and His perfections. I dont want my child or any other child taking away from the gloriousness of my Savior.

    If children are innocent, why do children die? If they were innocent, they would not die. A result of our curse is death…we’re all cursed and we face the consquences of our sin and one consequence is death.

    To God be the glory…Alone.

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  17. This may seem a little nit-picky because I actually agree with Wendi. We are all conceived in sin and born in iniquity. Every imagination of our hearts, in our unconverted state, is evil only continually from our youth.

    My minor disagreement is with the statement, “If they [children] were innocent, they would not die.” Actually children – even those who are “miscarried,” die because of Adam’s sin, rather than their own yet-to-be-committed sins.

    “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” I Corinthians 15:22

    “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” Romans 5:12

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  18. Another thing I want to add about the cross is what actually happened on the cross. God the Father killed His Son, on the cross. Why did He kill Him? So He wouldnt have to kill me. I deserve God’s wrath and on the cross Jesus took God’s wrath. (Again study what was in the cup that Jesus prayed it be removed from Him) The cross is glorious because Jesus took the wrath that I deserved. It wasn’t the sufferings, the beatings, the stripes, the crown that Jesus wanted taken away, it was having to bear God’s wrath on His people’s behalf. That’s why the cross is glorious! The innocent died in place of the guilty. Praise Him!

    And verses where Jesus claimed to be God:

    Jesus said, “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.” “I and the Father are one.”

    John 1:1,

    Hebrews 1:8 God the Father calls Jesus God and Isaiah 43:11 says there is no other God

    John 20:28 Thomas calls Christ, “My Lord and My God”. Now Jesus knew the 10 commandments and one is thou shall have no other Gods before Me and when Thomas said My Lord and My God, if Jesus were not God then Jesus would have said NO, NO. If He allowed Thomas to do that without being God, then He knowingly allowed Thomas to break God’s law.

    When Jesus healed in Mark 2:1-12 some of the scribes were upset because Jesus had just said “Your sins are forgiven you” and they replied, “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” and Jesus says in verse 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins.

    Also, the Jews in John 10 wanted to stone Jesus for making Himself equal with God. (v.33)
    There was no doubt in Jew’s mind that Jesus was claiming to be God. Many, many verses where Jesus claims to be God.

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  19. Ministry addict,

    I agree with what you’re saying, and maybe you can help me out here. Are you saying that I’m only a sinner because I sin?

    The Truth is, and I think you’ll agree, I’m not a sinner because I sin, I sin because I am a sinner. It’s not that I become a sinner the first time I ever sin. I’m a sinner period and that’s why I sin. So babies are sinners even before they commit any act because we’re all sinners and in need of a Savior.

    Now, my husband has lost a baby before and he has said when he shares is that he believes his baby went to heaven, (NOT because it was innocent) but only because of GOd’s grace (That’s the way any of us are saved..whether 1 month or 100) but he always put this in there as well…if my baby didn’t go to heaven, he got what he deserved. But again, we do believe babies go to heaven b/c of the scripture when David lost his baby, he said I can go where he is, but only because of God’s mercy, not because the baby is innocent.

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  20. Ministry Addict,

    I forgot to add this…I always stand ready to be corrected and led to truth. I want to be teachable as the Proverbs tells us to be and not stubborn and think we know it all…Thanks for your comments but I again was just wanting to clarify what you meant..Thanks!

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  21. Pilgrim said:

    Jesus did not atone or pay for our sins in the garden, Jay, it was on the cross. Fourpointer covered this very well, so there’s no need to revisit.

    Jay said:

    I was unconvinced by the scriptures he quoted that Jesus paid for our sins on the Cross (not that I think it matters where he paid for our sins).

    Jay, how can you reject what is plainly written in the Scripture? Have you been told that this is one of those “plain and precious truths” that “careless transcribers and crafty priests” changed in order to “take away from the gospel of the Lamb?” How can you read those passages and say that they don’t say what they do say?

    Each and every single one of them says that Jesus atoned for our sins on the cross!!! Would you please tell us what you think these passages really mean? Do you think there’s a reason that it doesn’t say anywhere—ANYWHERE—in the Bible, or in the Book of Mormon, anything about Gethsemane being where Jesus atoned for our sins? And yes, it does matter. Because if you reject that atonement happened on the Cross, you are making God a liar. Because it is repeated over and over and over again that it was His death ON THE CROSS that paid for our sins.

    Looking at what you have written on your website, it seems odd that you would be defending so vigorously this LDS “church,” when you aren’t even sure that what they teach, or what they call “scripture” is true. You seem to have a lot of issues with LDS teaching, you are devoting time and energy defending their doctrines. In all seriousness, could it be that you have come here looking for answers to your questions?

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  22. I do a question for Jay…When you said “If God asked me live in the African bush for the rest of my life I’d do it because I love Him and would be obedient to what I was asked to do.” Would you do that thinking that would gain you favor with God? Would you do that thinking that would justify you before God? Would you do that thinking God would allow you into heaven because you did that? Just curious. Thanks!

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  23. Wendi:

    I agree with what you have written, because I believe the Scripture agrees. It’s almost impossible to be precise in what we say/write unless we’re quoting the Bible directly. I just didn’t want anyone to read this thinking that Biblical doctrine holds that babies are in the womb plotting evil already. (But who knows? Maybe they are. Certainly, I don’t have any memories before the age of 4, but my very earliest memories are of me being cruel and selfish and proud.) My point was that Adam’s sin brought death into the world, not the sin of individual babies.

    I also wanted to make sure that nobody accused God of being ungracious when He decreed in the councils of eternity that one man’s (Adam’s) sin cast the entire universe into moral darkness and judgment.

    Actually, God was being extremely gracious when He did this. For if one man’s sin put all of creation under a death sentence, then One Man – the Son of Man – the King of Glory – the One Who was fully man and fully God – the King of Kings and Lord of Lords – could redeem all of creation by His one death.

    Romans 5:14-19 explains this in King James English far better than I ever could.

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  24. Ministry Addict,

    I found this from a sermon from John Macarthur…this helped me as well understand what you were saying and I agree.

    The Bible is absolutely crystal-clear that all children are sinners from conception–all children. The principle of iniquity is embedded in the human race. Children are born morally corrupt. They are born with an irresistible bent towards evil. And any notion that children are born morally neutral and free from a predisposition to sin is absolutely contrary to Scripture. And, as I said, this view was denounced as heresy after the death of the one who propounded it and has been considered heresy by those faithful to biblical theology ever since.

    All humans are born in sin. If infants were not sinful, if they were not morally corrupt, then they wouldn’t die. If they were born innocent or pure or morally neutral, there would be no basis for their death!

    The very fact that they die indicates that the disease of sin is there in them, because sin is the killer. It is in their inherited sin nature that the seeds of death are planted.

    The Bible is absolutely clear that all infants who survive end up wretched sinners, because it’s in their nature.

    So, the Bible tells us that sinfulness is not a condition that comes upon people when they are old enough to choose to do evil. It is the condition of the entire human race and every conception brings into being a sinful life. Ever since Adam and Eve, everyone born has been born in a fallen, sinful state. That becomes evident as soon as any behavioral choice is made.
    We are born sinners. We are also born guilty because we inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin.

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  25. I’ve never heard or read this particular MacArthur teaching, but I don’t doubt you’re quoting or paraphrasing him correctly.

    And I’m probably about to get blasted for daring to disagree with a well-known Bible scholar. Mr. MacArthur probably forgets more about the Bible every ten minutes than I’ll ever learn in a lifetime. BUT…

    MacArthur via Wendi:
    “All humans are born in sin.” [I agree with this. It’s in the Bible.]

    “If infants were not sinful, if they were not morally corrupt, then they wouldn’t die.” [I sort of agree with this, although I’ll leave what “would or would not happen” to God’s sovereignty and providence, and not presume to predict what would happen if an impossibility occurred. Certainly, any infant who lives long enough to form a coherent thought is sinful. We are all born in the image of our physical ancestor, Adam, and like Seth and all of Adam’s other physical “children,” we have inherited his sinful nature. See Genesis 5:3.]

    “If they were born innocent or pure or morally neutral, there would be no basis for their death!” [This is where I disagree. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, but as-yet-uncommitted sin is not a basis for death. Adam’s sin is. That’s why a one-second-old baby (what the world calls a fetus) can die, even though he or she hasn’t yet sinned.]

    I – like your husband – believe that these not-yet-having-actually-COMMITTED-sin babies go to be with the Lord, by the grace of God, even though they have inherited Adam’s sinful nature.

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  27. Dear Jay,

    You said, “You said yourself that you do because that’s why he came. Why not own that.”

    It’s not a matter of owning up to it, I readily concede that Christ’s death is extremely pertinent to the Christian faith. I certainly don’t expect LDS to adhere as much importance to it as we do when you consider that LDS believes the fall of Adam was a good thing, how can you possibly expect LDS to fully understand and grasp the importance of the Sacrifice. Once you deviate from one biblical truth, it all unravels.

    Christ’s teachings and example are good but they do not save. It’s what He did on the cross that saves. There will be millions of people who followed Christ’s teachings as best they could and when they stand before Him they will boast of their “works,” none of which will save them, (Matt. 7:21-23) they will be banished to Hell.

    The gospel is the most important aspect of Christianity, and that is the death burial and resurrection of the Savior. (1 Cor. 15:1-4) Too many churches nowadays ignore this and place more emphasis on good moral works, and how to live your life. Once you are truly born again, you become a new creation and you receive a new heart. You don’t need too much instruction (for the purpose of convincing) on how to live a good life then. You have a new heart’s desire to. You want to out of love, not out of the fear of impending doom.

    You (a Mormon) and I (a Christian) will continue to disagree on “focus.” Satan hates the cross because that’s where he was defeated. You should be very cautious of anyone or any group that does the same, even if they sweeten it up by claiming “we just don’t focus on it.” That sounds awfully noble, but it’s exactly what Satan would want; your focus off of the cross.

    And those statues you referred to violate the second commandment. So no, not in my church!

    Regarding the counterfeit Christ of Mormonism, we’ve been over that a million times. You serve a different “c”hrist. Your savior suffered in the garden to atone for sins (which were insufficient), the Savior of the Scriptures suffered on the cross to atone for our sins.

    You also said, “I was unconvinced by the scriptures he quoted that Jesus paid for our sins on the Cross . . .” And therein lies the problem. You reject the Scriptures because you aren’t convinced, but you believe Jesus atoned for our sins in the garden and WHAT Scriptural support do you have for that? None. But that’s ok because LDS says so. You see, you are more influenced by your “prophets” than by Scripture. Yet, when those same “prophets” say something you don’t like, then you distance yourself from them by claiming it’s just their opinion. You want your cake and eat it too.

    You said, “I’m not sure how doing good works because we love God and want to obey Him translates into works for salvation.” It doesn’t but you know darn well that LDS is a works-for-salvation belief system. Do not try to be deceptive here and play this game, Jay. We’re not ignorant to LDS doctrine so quit trying to play this shell game.

    You also said, “Well, I’ll just say that Mormons don’t ‘say’ all the things you have accused them of saying. Yes I know that some of those things were the opinion of a few past leaders, but they are not Mormon doctrine just someones human mind trying to make sense of the things of God.” Jay, it is or has been Mormon doctrine at some point in LDS history. Your prophets taught it. Their people believed it. It’s printed in LDS publications that are still supplied by the LDS organization. Again, quit being so deceptive. You know very well these things (Jesus was a polygamist, men can become gods, Adam is Jehovah, and the fall in the Garden of Eden was a “good” thing) were (and some are still) being taught. To claim otherwise is an outright lie.

    You need to stop making apologies and excuses for these heretical teachings and “own up” to them. You’re not fooling anyone when you claim “opinion” here but “doctrine” there (although they both come from the same prophet in the same message).

    You seem like a thinking man. One who weighs the issues of Mormonism and have come to some contrary views that are held by LDS faithful today. This tells me that you’re willing to disagree with LDS dogma. That’s step one in coming to the truth, Jay. Quit making excuses for the awful doctrines of LDS and come to terms with them. Either accept them or reject them, but don’t try to cover them up with smoke and mirrors. Really, what are you implying when you say, “Well, I’ll just say that Mormons don’t ‘say’ all the things you have accused them of saying.” ?

    When you put your quotes around “say,” it comes across as a clever little scheme to deceive. Of course you don’t “say” these things, Jay . . . not in public and you certainly don’t “say” them here. But you know very well that these are long held beliefs of LDS.

    LDS does not line up with Scripture. We have shown that over and over again. And besides, the places you know it doesn’t are easily dismissed as “opinions.” So no matter what, Jay, you have a convenient “out” to always avoid facing the harsh truth. This is intellectual dishonesty and I pray that you put your indoctrinations aside and consider the truth of the Scriptures alone and what they reveal.

    Now in regards to you inquiry about the Trinity, I don’t recall you ever asking about it before. You claim the multiple God idea of LDS is more palatable but that’s impossible because there is only one God (see Isaiah). This rules out LDS right off the bat and ruins any hopes you have of becoming a God (and don’t say the only God for “this world” because you just added to the Scriptures to make LDS doctrine fit Scripture).

    Your inquiry is a good one and I will address it in another comment (since I’ve gone on so long in this one). I could even crate a new post on the topic of the Trinity if you would prefer, just let me know.

    In closing allow me to ask you something. Is God comparable to anything? I mean, would you ever put Him in the same category and thus, same footing, as someone or something else? For example, God, Bill Gates, pope? Or God, me, and you? God, Michael, and Gabriel (the angels)?

    Thanks.

    – The Pilgrim

    And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; (1 Peter 2:24)

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  28. The crowd is too often like lost sheep doing the wrong sinful thing still, not in accordance with God’s will or the Bible.

    IT IS NOW MORE RARE BUT I DO ALSO NOW STILL GET BULLIED BY RELIGIOUS BULLIES, ABUSERS TOO.. not just by the past bad cops

    The WRONGFULLY STILL Unrepentant bully’s problem is that he or she is one of those bad persons who only feels truly alive when voicing hostility and contempt for his “enemies.” Without that, he or she starts gasping for air. It’s his nature.. self-destructive” .. clearly these immoral Bully, Basher of others, Abusers of others has a disappointed, deflated ego, negative self worth, most likely related to past unresolved guilt, as a result of that the bully, he or she, tries falsely to build their ego up by bashing, hating others, by being an antagonists against his proclaimed enemies, which too often also is most people , for he or she no longer trust anyone, and Abusers this is a common very typical approach, fact in the character build up of Bullies, Bashers, but their approach is futile, the subsequent feeling of self worth dissipates too quickly, are actually replaced by guilt, and his ego, self worth likely needs to be recharged with new hate.. and is replaced with more and larger hatred of the others. I have seen this type of wrong behavior not just in bad managers, bad politicians, bad persons, but in alcoholics, and most often in Albertan rednecks ,but also in religious fundamentals evangelicals who promote hated towards Pentecostal Christians as well, and now as well as the crooked pastor wrongfully fighting for control over others.

    Public exposure and prosecution of all of these bad persons services everyone’s best interest.

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