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Dear Mormon, are you worthy?

52 thoughts on “Dear Mormon, are you worthy?”

  1. My, my. The only worthiness any human has comes from Christ and His perfect life and sacrifice for His children. As with all deception, this video has a wee bit-o-truth in it, twisted enough to deceive many. By our acts of obedience, we have fellowship with our Lord and Father. But that relationship was purchased by Christ and is maintained by Christ – the One Who knew no sin but was made to bear our sin so we might be called the children of God.

    Regarding the supposed prophet of whom she speaks, the One who cannot lie says; “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds”

    He speaks to us by His Word, not sinful man. He uses sinful men to speak and preach what He has written.

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  5. I’m not a Christian, but from what I know about Christianity, it seems that there has always been a tension between the role of good works and the role of mercy in Salvation in the religion. I think a person of faith must do good works and have faith in God’s mercy to live a balanced life. I don’t see how anyone could have so many good works in their life that they would enter into heaven on the basis of those deeds alone and in a state completely independent of God’s mercy. Yet I think too many people err the opposite way and place all their hope in God’s mercy and neglect to do the good that they could do.

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  6. asad123

    that is magnificently well put. I am a Christian and I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. I think that if we experience God’s grace in our lives and actually take the time to acknowledge it and be humbled and thankful for it then love for the people that God loves will poor out of us like living water, to use bible speak. If we are really building a relationship with God we cannot help but burst with the love that he pours into us. What people don’t always pick up on is that Love is an action not just a fuzzy feeling or a concept and that it needs to be acted out. That is where good works come in. It’s not always easy or “natural” but it is always good. It’s a difference in the concept of Salvation vs. sanctification. Salvation is the Mercy that God gives us where as Sanctification is the process that we go through to become “new creations in Christ”. Thank you for your insight.

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  7. Dear Asad and Nicki:

    We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone apart from works, but this does not mean that there’s no place for “works” or “deeds” in the life of a Believer. There’s just no place for “works” or “deeds” in the regeneration of the Believer. Meaning, works plays no part in our redemption, for if it did, we’d still be under the curse of the Law. However, if a Christian lives his life with no evidence or fruit of his conversion (oftentimes seen in his works) then one must be suspect of whether or not true regeneration took place.

    And finally, Nicki, I believe that becoming “new creations in Christ” actually takes place at the moment of conversion (i.e. regeneration)! This happens in an instant and is based on absolutely positively nothing we can do, but is all of God. Sanctification is what happens during our lifetime as we continue to conform to the image of Christ and become less and less conformed to the things of this world and our old nature.

    – The Pilgrim

    P.S. I addressed this issue in Faith vs Works which I posted a while back. I hope this helps too.

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  8. Pilgrim is absolutely on the mark. Salvation is outlined in the Holy Bible: (Ephesians 2:8-99), 8. Because of his kindness you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God. 9. Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it.

    a.Kindness by Christ one is saved.
    b.A gift from God (gifts usually are free).
    c.This gift is not for self-righteousness, goodness or works.
    d.Nobody gets credit for being good enough, so “What have you brought to the table?”

    If the anointed atoning Blood of Christ Jesus depicts; 5. that even though we were spiritually dead and doomed by our sins, he gave us back our lives again when he raised Christ from the dead–only by his undeserved favor have we ever been saved–.

    a.We are all doomed before God’s gift through Lord Jesus.
    b.God gave us back our lives through Lord Jesus alone. Our names or good deeds aren’t listed, if one notices.
    c.By Christ alone we are saved….by his favor alone!

    If you also notice once one is saved then scripture further outlines the evidence at the moment of salvation one become the true property of Lord Jesus; 10. It is God himself who has made us what we are and given us new lives from Christ Jesus; and long ages ago he planned that we should spend these lives in helping others. Again, please notice after the redemption plan it says “Upon receiving our new lives from Christ Jesus that long ago he planned that his redeemed would then help others”.

    a.God himself make us what we are (his property).
    b.God gave us new life (salvation).
    c.After his gift, which Christ Jesus planned with the Father that we would help others once we are his property.

    So, please can any of you list all the good deeds and dead-works that one has to perform to obtain salvation since all of us were born doomed? Romans 5:11 says we were the enemy (reprobate by birth) of God. “10.For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life”.

    Like Pilgrim previously stated, “We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone apart from works”. Gift of salvation + dead-works=death

    Jesus is Lord

    LML

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  9. So basically what I said only with a lot of pompous christianese BS. Thank you for once again showing how puffed up we are with ourselves. I’m sure that all of that would be really relivant to someone who, say, had never stepped foot in a church. Way to show the love of Christ. White washed tombs.

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  10. As humans, we don’t like correction by God’s Word and we all have the tendency to use words and phrases such as; I feel, I think, or I experience this and that by adding our own personal touch or flesh to God’s word(s),{Satan too likes to use a lot of ‘I this and that’}.
    We would all be a lot better off using God’s word as the map through our lives, with the belief that it is absolutely true without bias or ineffective profanity. If God’s word through scripture is seen by his followers as “pompous christianese BS”, then one might want to reexamine their own personal feelings, thinking, experiences or religious stature. Luke 6:45 A good man produces good deeds from a good heart. And an evil man produces evil deeds from his hidden wickedness. Whatever is in the heart overflows into speech.

    Jesus is Lord

    LML

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  11. Nicki,

    Pilgrim and Lumpy have pointed out that:

    1) We were dead, reprobate sinners with no desire to know God
    2) Jesus shed His blood for us even though we had no right to expect that from our God
    3) There is no way we could ever do enough “good deeds” to merit God’s favor
    4) God loved us even though we hated Him
    5) We have nothing to boast in of ourselves
    6) In us dwells no good thing (Romans 7:24)
    7) He made us alive with Him while we were dead in trespasses and sins

    And how does this make them “puffed up” and “whitewashed tombs?” By saying we cannot do enough to “earn” our salvation?

    See, here’s the thing: The “good deeds” we do in trying to “earn” our salvation are nothing more than bloody rags (Isaiah 64:6) that reek of the stench of human effort. But when God saves us–for no other reason than the good pleasure of His will (Ephesians 1:5), we then walk in the works that He prepared befoe the foundation of the world (Ephesians 2:10).

    I will leave you with this from Paul Washer. He started out his mission work in Peru, in the Andes Mountains and in Lima–one of the poorest cities in the world. He spent much time with lepers. He once said that if a leper walked into the room, you would smell him before you would see him. And in a Bible study he wrote, he hit the nail on the head as far as our being “worthy” of salvation:

    “One might clothe a leper in the finest white silk to cover his sores, but immediately the corruption of his flesh would bleed through the garment, leaving it as vile as the man it seeks to hide. So are the ‘good works’ of men before God. They bear the corruption of the man who does them.“

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  13. Here is a fine example of dead-works,

    A decorated war hero and great orator, once wounded, won an election and became the leader of his country. He restructured a wounded economy by returning prosperity. Starving families once again could generously raise their children from an economic system in which paper notes were useless. Before this man’s rise to power, some people stole the baskets in front of the banks and business’, which held this bankrupt country’s currency; while dumping the currency in the street just to steal a good basket. In his time, the automotive business and aviation technology advanced in an astronomical ways. The highways system was revamped and the first super highway system in the world was established. Law’s to protect women and children were enforced whereas most police officers didn’t need a machinegun to protect and serve the public, one was safe to walk the streets even at night…..Education, language, science and research development were the calls of the day. Public, military and national pride was reestablished, within the land. Along with a blessing from “the church” this leader was in graces with the religious leadership of the land, with free rein. This man established and supported numerous children programs and charities.

    By these dead-works illustrated above would you say that Adolph Hitler is sanctified? Hitler was a man with numerous good-works, and with religious approval; let us not forget the fifty-two million souls that died because of his madness.

    These are true facts of one man’s dead-works, which emulates a fine example of his quest for recognition; along with the approval and blessing by a false assembly.

    Jesus is Lord

    LML

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  14. I apologize for my frustrated remark. I think perhaps we are not understanding each other. I believe in Jesus. I believe he is the Son of God and that he Died and rose again and paid for all peoples sins. I believe that if you ask him to enter your heart he does and changes you and gives you eternal life. I believe we did and can do nothing to earn that. I believe that he continues to change you as you grow in him through the reading of his word and the the practice of christian Disciplines such as solitude, fasting and meditating on the Word of God. I believe that these things are tools to bring us into a deeper relationship, and not the means of salvation. I believe in the baptism of the holy spirit and I have been baptised by him. I have been baptised by water. I have given my life to Jesus. I just have a difficult time with the use of highly technical terms in faith discussions, especially in a public place which this is. What if you were sitting across from a 22 year old who’d never been to church? There are a lot of them out there who haven’t got the slightest Idea what this church thing is all about. How would you talk to them? Would you use the same language? I’m not talking about watering anything down but you can use normal language to describe all the concepts that you talked about. The terms are useful in deeply educated theological circles for shortening discussion. I mean what if you had to describe what edification meant every time you wanted to talk about it with people who understand. You’d never get anything said. So yes I understand that there are places for the use of those words and that they are valid and meaningful for people. It’s just an increasingly unchurched public out there and those words don’t mean anything to them. They are the ones we’re trying to get to, after all, right? Please forgive me for my rash “speach”. It was not right. I hope that this clears the air up a bit.

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  15. Nicki,

    If we were talking with someone who had never been to church, we would of course tailor our language for that person. And if someone came across this site and did not know what words like “regeneration” and “sanctification” mean, we would obviously define them for that person. This site is for all who are seeking the truth, and if anyone comes here seeking the truth, we will gladly oblige.

    And although I cannot speak for Lumpy and Pilgrim, I personally accept your apology.

    Four* Pointer

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  17. Nicki,

    Thank you for sharing your testimony. May I ask you just a few questions?

    Do you affirm the Trinity? In other words do you believe that the One True and Living God has always existed from eternity as three Persons who are revealed in the Holy Bible as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

    Do you believe that the man Jesus Christ was God in the flesh?

    Do you believe that the man Jesus Christ was resurrected bodily (in the flesh) never to die again but to live forevermore as the sole mediator between God and mankind?

    Do you believe that upon the cross Jesus Christ fully atoned for sin thereby becoming a substitute for God’s holy wrath against sin in place of those who come to him by grace through faith alone?

    Do you believe that salvation is by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone?

    In Him,
    CD

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  18. There is a parable I have been taught, and it goes like this: A little girl asked her dad if she could have a bike. He said that if she worked hard to earn the money for a bike, he would take her to get it. So she worked hard around the house doing little chores and got all of the change she could. Finally one day she asked her dad if he would take her to the store to pick out the bike she wanted, and he did. As she walked up to it, though, she realized that she was still a dollar short. With tears in her eyes, she said, “Daddy, I did the best I could but it still wasn’t enough.” He opened her hand and put a dollar in it and said, “You did your best, I will make up the difference. I am so proud of you for working so hard.”

    THAT is what I believe. If we live our lives the best we can, no matter what we will still end up short. It is in our human nature. We are not perfect. But thanks to Jesus Christ for atoneing for my sins, I know that He will be my mediator in the end, and he can make up the difference AS LONG as I have done my best to do my part.

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  19. Not my thoughts, but God’s written Word…..

    What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would save the Gentiles also, through their FAITH. God told Abraham about this long ago when he said, “I will bless those in every nation who trust in me as you do.” And so it is: all who TRUST in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received. Yes, and those who depend on the Jewish laws (dead works) to save them are under God’s CURSE, for the Scriptures point out very clearly, “CURSED is everyone who at any time breaks a single one of these laws that are written in God’s Book of the Law.” Consequently, it is clear that no one can ever win God’s favor by trying to keep the Jewish laws, because God has said that the only way we can be right in his sight is by FAITH. As the prophet Habakkuk says it, “The man who finds life will find it through TRUSTING God.”

    Just think how much more surely the blood of Christ will transform our lives and hearts. His sacrifice frees us from the worry of having to obey the old rules, and makes us want to serve the living God. For by the help of the eternal Holy Spirit, Christ willingly gave himself to God to die for our sins–he being perfect, without a single sin or fault. Christ came with this new agreement so that all who are invited may come and have forever all the wonders God has promised them.

    Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from DEAD WORKS, and of faith on God. How much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from DEAD WORKS to serve the living God?

    Yet, I have never read scripture whereas being good enough or dead works assist into one’s salvation. I have never found a verse or two that indicated that Lord Jesus needs us to add our being good enough or works to assist him. I don’t know about others but just for myself, I am not demi-god or self-righteous enough to save myself much less others.

    For by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you – of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast.

    Jesus is Lord

    LML

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  20. Adrianne,

    Not to be argumentative or disagreeable or anything, but that is not quite how the grace of God works. To revise your parable, it would be like this:

    The little girl saw the bike. She saw that it cost 3 billion dollars (Matthew 18:24). She told her father, “Father, I’ll never be able to pay for that, no matter how much I do, or how long I work.” The father said, “Yes, I know. And there is no work that you could do to even pay a fraction of the cost (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, I will pay the price for you (Matthew 20:28), even though you have been disobedient, rebellious, and hateful toward me (Romans 5:6-10; Ephesians 2:1-3). But I love you so much that I will make the purchase for you (John 3:16). And once I pay for it, and purchase this for you (Acts 20:28), it will be yours forever (Philippians 1:6).”

    And even that is not an adequate description. For who could ever put the grace of God into words? We try, many men have tried, and have come about as close as man can come. But how could we ever fathom the fact that God wrapped Himself in sinful flesh (Philippians 2:7-8), dwelt among men (John 1:14), paid the price for our sins (1st Corinthians 6:19-20), shedding His own blood to pay for those sins even though we hated Him (Colossians 1:19-21)?

    The love of God and the grace of God is not *like* anything. It is so much higher than we could ever understand–and we will never understand it while we dwell in these tents of flesh.

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  21. Fourpointer:
    Wow, I have to say that you are very intelligent, and I appreciated the fact that you used scripture to back up your beliefs. And I further appreciate the respect you used when doing it. You weren’t hateful at all. Thank you very much. However, I would like to also use scripture to back up what I believe.
    James 2:10-26
    “But wilt thou know, O Vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
    What I take from that is that by works, we gain greater faith. But without our works, faith is dead.
    Also, Matthew 6:24 says: “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and Mammon.”
    You cant live your life thinking that it’s okay to act one way but then say that You love and believe in God. That makes you a hypocrite. Of course, you can’t live your life perfectly because we are prone to sin. But we must live our lives striving to do our best, and in the end God will judge our hearts.
    You also mention John 3:16. If you read further down, though, in verses 19 and 20 it reads: “And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their DEEDS were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, LEST HIS DEEDS SHALL BE REPROVED.” (God will judge our works.)
    Finally, there is a scripture in Mark 10: 21 “Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou has, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.”
    That is my favorite scripture, I think. We can’t expect to gain all that the Father has if we do not give of ourselves first. By giving of ourselves, we truly will obtain faith and become like Him which is our purpose, and when it comes time to be judged, God will see our good works and all that we tried to do. Then, through the atonement and Jesus as our mediator, we may be worthy of all that the Father has.

    Also, there is the parable of the prodigal son who had sinned and returned to his father. He recognized his sin. And he returned to his father saying, I am not worthy to be called your son any more because of what I have done to offend you. I know that if I repent of my mistakes, I can return to my Heavenly Father and he will accept me. But I must make the choice to return to him and to turn my choices around. I have the choice to live with Him because I have to choice to do what is right. And with every choice, there is a consequence. Good or bad.
    (Luke 15)

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  22. Adrianne,

    I TESTIFY TO YOU from Alpha & Omega Ministries

    That there is one true and eternal God, unchangeable, unique, all-powerful.1

    That this one true God created all things; there is nothing that exists anywhere that He did not bring into existence.2

    That this one true God is spirit, and is not limited to time and space, both of which He himself created.3

    That man is the creation of God, and God should not be thought of as an exalted man.4
    That Jesus Christ has eternally existed as God.5

    That Jesus Christ created all things.6

    That the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin.7

    That man is spiritually dead, enslaved to sin, unable to come to Christ outside of the Father’s enablement.8

    That full and complete salvation is the work of God’s grace.9

    That the Bible is God’s inerrant, authoritative, and sufficient revelation to man, in need of no supplements.10

    This is my testimony, one that I believe is given to me by the Holy Spirit of God. The Bible says the Spirit of God witnesses to our spirits that we are the children of God (Romans 8:16) and that He leads His people into all truth (John 16:13).

    I share this testimony with you because I believe the issues mentioned above define the gospel itself. The gospel requires that we know the one true God (John 17:3); a false god cannot save us. The gospel requires that we know the true Jesus Christ, for a false Christ cannot save (John 8:24, 2 Corinthians 11:4). And the true gospel alone can bring salvation, which is why we are warned about those who would preach a false gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, however, denies every single one of the beliefs I shared with you above. Every one.* It is because of this that I share this literature with you. If you are LDS, I sincerely wish to warn you that you have been misled. If you are not LDS, I wish to inform you of the great differences that exist between Christianity and Mormonism at the most fundamental levels. While we often use the same words, we fill those words with very different meanings.

    If you are LDS: I have given you my testimony. Doubtless you may say you have your own. The two testimonies contradict each other, however. What can we do now? The difference between us, my friend, is just this: my testimony does not determine truth. My testimony is a wonderful and precious thing, but it is not how I know the truth. My testimony must be subjected to a higher authority: the Bible. No matter how strongly I may “feel” about something, I must submit my feelings to the correction of the Word of God. So while you and I may have testimonies that conflict, I can take my testimony to the Word of God and demonstrate how it is consistent not only with some of the Bible, but with all of the Bible. My beliefs come from the Bible, and I would be glad to demonstrate this to you.

    If you are not LDS: Christianity claims to be God’s truth. As such, there is no room, nor reason, for compromising on the essential elements of the faith. Mormonism is a fundamentally different religion, for Mormonism openly proclaims a “plurality of Gods” (see the Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20, 37, Book of Abraham chapters 4-5, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 345ff). Christianity is unalterably monotheistic: we believe in only one true and eternal God. Mormonism presents a different God, a different Christ, and a different gospel. Because we love God, honor His truth, and desire others to know Him, we share this information with you.

    (1) Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10, 44:5-8; Psalm 90:2, 96:5; Mal. 3:6; James 1:17. (2) Isa. 40:22, 41:4, 44:24; Jer. 10:10-11; (3) 2 Chron. 6:18; Jer. 23:24; John 4:24. (4) Zech 12:1; Psalm 50:21; Isa 29:16; Hosea 11:9. (5) John 1:1, Phil. 2:5-6; Heb 1:10. (6) John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:1-3. (7) Col. 1:19-20, 2:13-14; 1 Pet. 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7. (8 John 6:44, 65; Eph. 2:1-5. (9) Eph. 2:8-10. (10) 2 Tim. 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21

    In Christ,
    CD

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  23. Coram Deo:

    I respect your testimony. I appreciate you sharing it with me. And while I do not agree with all of your beliefs, I do agree with some of them. These are the things I agree with you on:
    That there is one true and eternal God, unchangeable, unique, all-powerful.1
    That this one true God created all things; there is nothing that exists anywhere that He did not bring into existence.2
    Some of the other things that you said I believe in to an extent, however we do have differences, and I know you know that.

    If you look at any two religions, there will always be differences. While I believe that many have a lot of the truth, it is my belief that the church which I belong to bears the whole truth. Although the members of it are never perfect, we strive daily to follow Christ.
    Thank you for sharing your testimony. This is mine:

    I believe that God prepared a plan for us, and gave us the choice to follow it. That plan could not be carried out without the atonement of a perfect man: Jesus Christ. God loved His children so much that He sent His Only Begotten Son to atone for our sins and die for us that we might live. However, there is adversity in all things. That was all part of the plan. We would have to make our own choices in life. But those of us who have ever lived on this earth, are on this earth, or ever will be on this earth made that decision to come to earth any way, knowing that it would be hard and that we would have to prove our worthiness to return to Him. It is possible, no matter how human we are. We will all make mistakes, but we came here because God has a body, and we did not, and He was exalted, and we were not. He created this plan so that His children could become like Him. I know that when I make mistakes, it’s okay. I can repent because of the atonement, and I can strive to be better every single day. In the end, God will judge my heart because of His son’s atonement. Jesus will be my mediator. This is God’s plan.

    We believe that God is the one and only God. We do not worship Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost as God. We believe they are part of the Godhead, of which God is the head. To demonstrate this, you may read John 20:17. This is after Jesus Christ has died. Mary is weeping. He comes to Mary, and when she realizes that it is Jesus Christ, He says to her: Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God… Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That is what we believe. He has a physical body, as well, just as God does.

    2 Nephi 29:6-8 says:
    6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
    7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
    8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

    Finally, the scripture you mentioned that states that we can all become Gods is true and correct. We were sent to earth to become like God. Does that not mean we can become Gods ourselves? Not Gods of His world, but creators of our own. That is our belief.

    I appreciate your concern that I have been misled, but I have determined my own testimony for my own self. After much prayer, fasting and scripture study, I know that the spirit cannot lie. I know that it is true, and I am thankful for it. What we preach is love. We learn of service. We learn to love our neighbor. If this is not truth and this is evil, then please correct me. But as Matthew 7:16 says: Ye shall know them by their fruits…

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  24. Greetings to all,

    In the Book of James, which actually predicates that merely claiming to be a Christian does not make us children of God! We’re not Christians just because we say we are. Many people claim to have faith, but they have never trusted Christ alone for salvation, entering into a personal relationship with Him. Unless the fruits of a living faith are evident in the life the claim of faith is a false one. People with dead faith substitute words for works. They speak the language of a Christian. They talk the talk but do not walk the walk, for they are still dead in sin. Dead men do not walk. A truly converted man will be a changed man. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creature, the old things have passed away all things have become new.
    “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”. “This will be evidence of the fruit of his works after salvation, not in obtaining”. No fruit in one’s life after salvation then one might need to reevaluate their walk and eternal future, I would think.
    A great example is In the Book of Hebrew 6:4-7, whereas people actually witnessed the works through and of the Holy Spirit but did not partake in the spirit. Basically, they set, watched and wanted God’s blessing without acknowledging true salvation. 4.For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.7. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: One who is truly saved will have the evidence of fruits and the false convert will not, but obtaining works, and good needs to obtain or maintain salvation is wrong. One has to ask themselves how prayers, works into the church, worshipping statues, or kissing the hand of a church elders does it take to obtain salvation. How many sins, misdeeds or rebellious acts does it take for one to lose their salvation; a gift from God in which the never earned to start with? Have you ever wondered why in some, (the majority of charismatic), churches how when one supposedly loses their salvation that they never make the backslider to be resaved and baptized? Simple, Lord Jesus can’t be renailed to the cross….

    Jesus is Lord

    LML

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  25. Adrianne,

    You said, But we must live our lives striving to do our best, and in the end God will judge our hearts. On the contrary, God will judge our righteousness. If we are seeking to be righteous by our own deeds, we will fail miserably, as you pointed out.

    Jesus said, “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). And who had more “works” to boast of than the Pharisees? Therefore, we must perform more righteous works than the scribes and Pharisees, or we will not see Heaven. Can any of us say we have done that? No, we can’t–the very point Jesus was making. Which is why Paul told us “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified” (Galatians 2:16).

    Now, here comes the argument–“Why did James say that ‘faith without works is dead?'” For this reason: a faith that does not produce works of righteousness is like grapes rotting on the vine–they’re there, but they are no use to the owner of the vineyard. You see, we are not saved by doing “good works.” Any works we do in trying to make ourselves righteous is nothing more than a repeat of the first rebellion against God, when Lucifer said, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God” (Isaiah 14:13). It is the same reason God was displeased with Cain’s offering–it was the work of Cain’s hand, and not a gift of faith (like Abel’s). What that person is saying is, “My works are better than Christ’s righteouness. I will do so many good things, God will have to let me into His kingdom.”

    However, Paul told us “by grace you have been saved through faith, and that is not of yourself. It is a gift of God, and not of works lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, how to reconcile faith and works? Look at the next verse. “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” What that means is, before the foundation of the world, God prepared works for His people to do. Then, in His timing and for the good pleasure of His will, He saved us, gave us Christ’s righteousness, so that we could do the works He prepared for us. See that? We don’t do the works to earn salvation. That’s self-righteousness. Rather, we do the works that display the love of Christ (and the fruit of the Spirit) in us.

    As far as Christ’s instructions to the rich young ruler–he was not telling the man what he had to DO, but showing him how far short he fell in trying to keep the law (the very thing the young man boasted in).

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  26. Fourpointer:

    I think that no matter how much either of us say and how many scriptures we use to back up our beliefs, neither of us are going to be swayed. For this reason, I am going to call it done. I have done what I wanted which is to take my stand as a Mormon and display what we truly believe which is not evil- I have done my part, and whether people come here and believe me or not, I have done what I came here to do. People seem to judge mormons without knowing the full extent of what we believe, and I wanted to be sure that people actually understood the truth. I’ve done my best to make my point, but I can’t force my belief on anyone just as you can’t force your belief on me .
    But before I am done, I would just like to clear one thing up: I do not try to do good works because I want to be able to boast of myself. I don’t do them so that God will HAVE to let me into His kingdom. I do them because I would rather live eternally happy in His kingdom than some place else. I have to be worthy to be in His presence though. With good works comes joy- I am a living testament of that. I feel good when I do good, and I feel bad when I do bad. That is in no way being self righteous.

    I do not boast of myself. I boast of my God.

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  27. Adrianne,

    I hope one day you will understand the grace of God for what it is–a free gift that we could never earn. And while you may think you’re not trying to impress God or boast in your works, that is what we do in trying do “earn” our salvation by our works. I don’t mean to sound like you were lying when you said that wasn’t what you were trying to do. But when you get right down to it, that’s what we all do when we try and pay off any part of our debt on our own.

    The only works that will last for all eternity are those that God has prepared for us to do–not the ones we choose to do outside of Christ. That is what 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 and 1st Corinthians chapter 3 are talking about–when those who were saved by the grace of God and the Cross of Jesus Christ are rewarded for their service to God.

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  28. Fourpointer:
    I believe that it is prideful to live your whole life thinking that you can do whatever you want and still get into Heaven as long as you say, “Lord, Lord.” This is hypocrisy to me. I believe that you must prove your worthiness to live with God, and you believe that you just have to believe in God and you will make it. Which is more prideful? The one that works for his dollar? Or the one who believes he can go to the bank and say, “You are the Almighty” and get all that is within?

    I am no longer posting on this website as I have become very frustrated and angry. It is very unsettling to know that so many people spend their whole lives trying to tell me that what I believe is evil. I would like to, however, finnish off with this note.

    ” …I do not aboast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God.
    12 Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever.” (Alma 26: 11-12) ((Taken right out of the Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ.))

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  29. Dear Adrianne:

    I agree with you. You believe it is prideful to rest all one’s hopes on Christ alone for salvation and not on ourselves and our own filthy rags offered to God to bribe Him for entrance into Heaven. You believe this is hypocrisy, however, you are not the basis by which we judge truth (and neither am I, nor LDS prophets, nor the pope, etc.). The Bible is.

    Your feelings, beliefs, and opinions are subject to the revealed Word of God, and not the other way around.

    BTW, you used a reference (Lord, Lord) from Matthew 7:21-23. Unfortunately you wrested it from its context. Please review it when you get a chance. If you notice, the people telling Jesus “Lord, Lord” boasted in their deeds as “proof” of their worthiness to enter Heaven (just like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Catholics).

    Notice not one of these condemned souls ever said it was their faith upon Christ and Christ alone that saves them, but they were expecting their deeds to be the “ticket” in. They were resting on their own filthy rags.

    This is what we’ve been trying to explain to you (without making you frustrated).

    – The Pilgrim

    P.S. Here’s some quotes “taken right out of the Bible.”

    You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

    I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. (Galatians 2:21)

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us . . . (Galatians 3:13)

    But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:23-24)

    For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. (James 2:10)

    For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

    For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. (Isaiah 64:6)

    For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ . . . (Romans 5:1)

    . . . a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But The Righteous Man Shall Live By Faith.” (Romans 1:16-17)

    He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being made justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:5-7)

    Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:23-24)

    But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through Faith. (Romans 3:21-25)

    For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (Romans 3:28)

    . . . for “Whoever Will Call Upon The Name Of The Lord Will Be Saved.” (Romans 10:13).

    But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

    So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith? Even so, Abraham Believed God And It Was Reckoned To Him As Righteousness. (Galatians 3:5-6)

    The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham . . . (Galatians 3:8)

    . . . not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith . . . (Philippians 3:9)

    Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if the law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. (Galatians 3:21)

    But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound . . . (Romans 7:6)

    Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for “The Righteous Man Shall Live By Faith.” (Galatians 3:11)

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. – Jesus Christ (John 3:16)

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  30. Just so you know, Pilgrim, I do not rely on my own “filthy rags” to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. Let me explain to you, again, what I have been saying all along. I KNOW that no matter how much I do, I am always going to come up short in God’s eyes. But that does not mean I should do nothing at all. I mention, again, James 2:20. Faith without works is dead. You are right that no matter how much I work, I will always be a sinner. That is where faith comes in. I have faith that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I will be able to stand worthy to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven if I have done my best to live my life in accordance with my beliefs. Please, do not attempt to say that I believe otherwise.
    Consider the scripture in Matthew 18.
    24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
    25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
    26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
    27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

    The same can be likened to a man trying to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven who has done so much wickedness. As payment, God would cast him into Hell. However, because the servant fell down and begged of God to have patience and let him work out his debt, God had compassion and was merciful to him.
    We must do the same thing. We will always be in debt to our Lord, but like this man we must be willing to work out our debt. Just as God forgave this man, He will truly forgive me.
    I am not trying to boast of my good works. I am trying to work out my own debt to my Savior for atoneing for my sins.
    Please do not characterize me incorrectly when this has been what I have explained to you.

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  31. Adrianne:

    What you have been saying is that you rely on BOTH your efforts and Christ’s sacrifice because you have stressed the importance of the works in the life of the believer for salvation. Am I correct or incorrect?

    I agree that works are important in the life of a believer as PROOF OF SALVATION, but works do not contribute TO salvation. They are a product of saving faith, not the genesis or origin of that saving faith.

    If you read the entire book of James (in its context) you will see what he was trying to convey regarding faith and works. I wrote about the topic of Faith vs Works and you can read it here.

    Additionally, regarding the man you used as an example who was forgiven of his debt, he was forgiven–not based on what he did–but solely based on the mercy and grace of the one whom the debt was owed.

    Your debt (and my debt) can only be forgiven by Gods mercy and grace. Any effort of our own is an insult to God. Essentially you are saying that the priceless blood of God that was shed on our behalf (Acts 20:28) needs to be added to by our “righteous works;” the very “righteous works” that Isaiah tells us are “filthy rags.”

    Respectfully,
    – The Pilgrim

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  32. Adrianne,

    You seem to be upset because you believe “that so many people spend their whole lives trying to tell me that what I believe is evil.” Yet, you do the very same thing by claiming that we believe that a person can say a little prayer and go on in continual sin and still be saved. I would ask you this: is that what you have observed, or is that what you have been told by your ward/stake president, or teachers, or bishop? Because that is not what we believe.

    It would appear as though you have not read what we have actually written. The apostle Paul said that “by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Galatians 2:16). However, James told us in James 2:19, “You say you believe God is one, you do well. Even the demons believe and tremble.” So it is obvious from Scripture that a man cannot simply believe in a bunch of facts and be saved. Salvation is wrought by Christ, and we gain that salvation by repenting of our sins and any self-righteousness we strive for, and follow our Lord Jesus Christ and receive His righteousness. But the works we are to do–they do not come before salvation, they do not lead to our salvation, they are a result of our salvation.

    Besides, how many “good works” did the repentant thief do as he hung on his cross (see Luke 23/a>)?

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  33. PILGRIM:
    You said: “I agree that works are important in the life of a believer as PROOF OF SALVATION” and then you said, “Any effort of our own is an insult to God.”
    I’m confused, which one do you believe?? And I never said that my works are the genesis or origin of me being saved. I HAVE TOLD YOU that no matter how much I do, without the atonement, I am hopeless and lost. The atonement of Christ is the very thing that saves me.

    FOURPOINTER: No matter how often I go to church and listen to the teachings of the leaders, it will never mean anything unless I develop my own testimony. That is what I have done. So in answer to your question, no, it’s not my leaders speaking through my mouth. It’s the testimony of my own heart, and the fact that it echoes the words of my teachers is only proof to me that it is true. How many bishops and teachers have left the Mormon church. Sadly, quite a few. Does that mean that I will? Never. I believe what I believe because I have sought out my own testimony through prayer and study.

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  34. Adrianne:

    Allow me to clear up the confusion:

    ANY EFFORT OF OUR OWN IS AN INSULT TO GOD
    Our attempts to gain God’s forgiveness, favor, or merit through our filthy rags is what is an insult because those who attempt to sway God’s judgment by their dead works are essentially saying that the sacrifice God ‘s Son provided was insufficient; that God still requires some act upon their part by which to remove the debt or make the ransom effective. God shed His own blood (Acts 20:28); priceless, holy, and righteous blood, to save us. What in the world could we offer God to add to that? As a vile sinner (such as I) what delusional arrogance would I be living in if I thought I had anything to offer to or add to Christ’s sacrifice.

    PROOF OF SALVATION
    Where works come in is NOT in the regeneration of the sinner where he is provided a new heart, but in the works he does after it because he has been given a new heart (Eph. 2:10). 1 John tells us that if we claim to know God but walk in darkness we lie. This is where the work is the PROOF OF SALVATION, however, those works are not what brought about our salvation. It was our faith through God’s grace ALONE, and NOT OF OUR WORKS (please read Eph. 2:8-10 very carefully).

    Please understand that works are expected to be present in a true believer because God has changed him and he desires to do good works, whereas the performance of these “works” does not cause or contribute to the salvation itself. If you can understand this, you may still not agree with it, but you will understand where we are coming from.

    I hope this helps. Does this make it any clearer?
    – The Pilgrim

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  35. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    (Revelations 20:12)

    And I repeat, AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN that I have never said that my works save me!!!!!!!! I have told you, time and time again, that the Atonement saves me. I am judged of my works though. But I am saved by the Atonement.
    Make sense? I sure hope so.

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  36. That is my belief, take it or leave it, period, end of discussion. I believe that I am judged by my works, and saved through the atonement, because Jesus is my mediator. That’s it. That’s what I believe.

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  38. Adrianne,

    In your most recent replies, you have tried to convince us that you do not put any stock in your own works to have anything to do with your salvation. But in previous comments, you have said, “But thanks to Jesus Christ for atoneing for my sins, I know that He will be my mediator in the end, and he can make up the difference AS LONG as I have done my best to do my part.” That makes it sound as though you believe Jesus will only atone for your sins if you do as much as you can, a line of thought that parallels 2nd Nephi 25:23–“for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

    Just so we are clear, and we understand you better, do you believe that Jesus “fills in the gaps” where you fall short, or does He save you independently of any effort on your part? In other words, does He asve you in order to set you apart for you to do good works, or does He save you because you do good works?

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  39. Jesus Christ has already atoned for my sins. No matter what choices I make, that atonement has already taken place. When I do something that is in contradiction with what I believe, I can rely on the atonement to repent and know that I can be forgiven. Does that make sense? Jesus Christ can always make up the difference, but I have to be willing to use His atonement in my life by repenting and striving to live in accordance with my beliefs every day. As a mormon, choice and accountability is very important. Jesus Christ has done His part which He didn’t have to do. I am so thankful for Him. Because even if I did my best to live in accordance with the gospel, without that atonement I would have no hope.

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  40. Lamanites No More: DNA and Lost Ties to Father Lehi

    According to noted Mormon sociologist and historian Armand L. Mauss:

    “Since the very founding of the church in 1830, Mormons had believed that North American Indians were Lamanites, described by the Book of Mormon as literal Israelites, the seed of Abraham, who would flock to the church as lost sheep responding to the voice of the true Shepherd of Israel and would actually take the initiative in building a New Jerusalem on the American continent.”1

    Mormon leaders over the years have also taught that these supposed Book of Mormon people called Lamanites are the ancestors of Native American peoples from Alaska to Argentina as well as the native inhabitants of the Polynesian islands.2 Thus, Mormon leaders have taught that millions of modern-day Native Americans and Polynesians are direct descendants of Hebrews who migrated to the New World and as such they are also Lamanites, since they descended from the last surviving people mentioned in the Book of Mormon by the same name.3

    However, the Book of Mormon story is challenged on multiple scientific fronts. There is no credible evidence that a small band of migrating Israelites populated the Americas with millions of people, generated an iron-age culture, built many buildings, and fought massive wars with thousands of casualties. To the contrary, for nearly 100 years archaeologists, biologists and linguists have presented evidence that: “physical similarities, cultural and linguistic ties and archeological and molecular data all indicate a Siberian/Asiatic origin for Native Americans, not a Hebrew one.”4

    In addition, DNA studies used to trace the ancestry of Native American peoples support the conclusions of scientists in other fields and together the evidence raises serious questions about the veracity of the Book of Mormon and the historical and theological authenticity of the Mormon faith in general.

    In the past, Mormon Church leaders have ignored the issues, and encouraged troubled members to wait for more revelation or additional scientific discoveries that would support the Book of Mormon story. More recently these challenges have received significant media attention and in turn, Mormon Church leaders have deferred to Mormon scholars and apologists to provide a response. Many of these apologists, rather than supporting traditional views, are arguing that the traditional Mormon understanding about Book of Mormon geography and the identity of the Lamanites is wrong. Mormons who become aware of this issue are forced to grapple with the implications for their faith. For example, the March 2004 Sunstone related the angst of a young Peruvian student named José, who attended a presentation on DNA and Book of Mormon at BYU:

    He told the audience and panelists how he grew up believing he was Lamanite and now felt ‘overwhelmed with the surprise coming from science … We don’t know where the Book of Mormon took place. We don’t know where the Lamanites are. If we don’t know who the Lamanites are, how can the Book of Mormon promise to bring them back? It’s an identify crisis for many of us that [must] be understood’ (“Reframing the Book of Mormon”, Sunstone 131 [March 2004], p. 19.)

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  42. Dear Fourpointer:

    To better assist you in understanding the LDS stance on the faith and works issue, I direct your attention to pages 303-304 of the LDS published and distributed Gospel Principles (1997 edition). It outlines Mormon salvation in 17 “simple” steps (plus a bonus step):

    1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

    2. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    3. We must receive the temple endowment.

    4. We must be married for time and eternity.

    In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to–

    1. Love and worship God.

    2. Love our neighbor.

    3. Repent of our wrongdoings.

    4. Live the law of chastity.

    5. Pay honest tithes and offerings.

    6. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.

    7. Speak the truth always.

    8. Obey the Word of Wisdom.

    9. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

    10. Keep the Sabbath day holy.

    11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

    12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

    13. Have family and individual prayers every day.

    14. Honor our parents.

    15. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

    16. Study the scriptures.

    17. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

    Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

    I hope their teaching on the subject helps you better understand where they’re coming from and clears up some of the confusion.

    When in doubt, refer to their own writings and publications.
    – The Pilgrim

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  43. And after all of that, we rely on the atonement of Jesus Christ because we cannot be made perfect without it.
    That’s a long list, but it’s really not hard. And though I slip sometimes, I have the atonement to cling to in the end.

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  44. Gospel Principles didn’t say that, though.

    I was quoting LDS material. It seemed pretty exhaustive. Why do you think that they forget/omitted/ignored/failed to mention the “reliance on Jesus part“? After all, I thought that was the most important part and it’s not even mentioned.
    Odd . . . very odd.

    I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

    So, Adrianne, is “relying on the atonement of Jesus Christ” number 19 then?

    – The Pilgrim

    P.S. You said you slip in some times; did you know that if you stumble in just one point, though, you’re guilty of the whole law? (James 2:10).

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  45. Pilgrim,

    I do remember seeing that list at one time. I remember thinking how it was nothing more than putting the yolk of another law on men’s backs. I also remember the parable that Boyd K. Packer had published in Gospel Principles.

    Adrianne, that is one of the major differences between you and I. People like Pilgrim and myself believe that when we stopped putting any trust in any of our works to pay any of our debt that we owed to God, and instead trusted in His finished work on the Cross alone to make the payment for our sins, our debt was wiped out–He became sin for us, we became His righteousness (2nd Corinthians 5:21). Yet the LDS would say that Jesus only makes up the difference of where we fail to perfectly keep His commandments (as outlined in Gospel Principles). Does that sound like a fair assessment? If not, then feel free to correct me.

    Adrianne, here’s the thing, and I think it’s one place where our two views on faith don’t jive–If you follow the LDS belief on the Atonement, then you believe that Christ atoned for EVERYBODY’S sins, whether they believe in Him or not. And because of that atonement, EVERYBODY will be resurrected to some type of glory, whether telestial, terrestrial, or celestial. That because Christ paid for every single person’s sins, the worst that can happen to someone is to suffer for a few years after they die, but that eventually they will be released from their suffering, correct? If that is not what you believe, I apologize.

    So I would like to ask you this–what do you believe about Hell? Is it real? Is it eternal? And who goes there (if anyone)?

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  46. Ask another Mormon, because I am getting tired of your countless questions. You continue to ask me so many questions only so that you can “prove” them wrong. No matter what I say, you will never agree with me. This is not giving up. This is realizing that it does no good to argue with someone who is going to continually argue back. I will continue to believe what I believe and you will continue to believe what you believe. But as far as this is going, we are only going back and forth and nothing is coming of it.

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  47. Why all the questions?

    Because Mormons have invited us to question, examine, and challenge them. Or has there been “new revelation” since then and you no longer hold out this invitation to us?

    You shouldn’t be afraid of questions, nor should you be hostile to us for asking question if you have the truth.

    – The Pilgrim

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  48. Adrianne,

    I ask these questions because I don’t want you to think that I am putting words in your mouth, or that I am trying to say taht you believe something you don’t. I know that not every Mormon believes exactly the same things–that is why all the questions.

    You are right about one thing though–one reason I want to know what you believe is so that I can show you how you have been deceived by the LDS system. You’re not alone, millions of people have been led astray by what they have been taught by the LDS. It is a system built on deception, and one that keeps its followers in the dark about its past (and about many of its present teachings).

    But, if you no longer want to have this discussion, no one here is forcing you to continue. You are free to leave any time you want, although I hope you won’t leave until you see the truth for yourself.

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  49. I appreciate your attempt at kindness towards me. I know your purpose is a good one. You have very strong faith in what you believe. However, I have very strong faith in what I believe as well. I have not been led astray because I am led by the Holy Ghost and God’s living Prophet and the scriptures and prayer.
    I am leaving because I do see the truth for myself, and that is that what I believe is very good and very true. My heart is full because of it. I have my own testimony. It is not the testimony of anybody else. It’s my own. I developed it on my own. And I will continue to be thankful for it forever.

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  50. I believe the Book of Mormon is true, even the Holy Ghost did not reveal me. I need not to know to tell me, or God to come down from heaven to explain me. I don’t need somebody to explain me this or that. It is something that I know that I cannot explain why. My testimony is that I know the Mormon church is the foundation of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith. I have prayed for so long to God that he might bring me to his Church for years. I have been waiting the Lord’s call. I was wandering to search the true church. I was told by some people there is no true church so we got to go any church and worship God. I felt she was wrong. I knew something the church and the gospel must have been restored. Then, I kneeled to my Heavenly Father asking him to talk to a man of God who sees him in person so by talking to him will call somebody to pick me up home. I knew that faith will move mountains. Somebody call me at home. I pick the phone, someone asked to speak after my name. I answered: This is he. He told me if I will be willing to be baptized and be part of the MOrmon church. I accepted. The missionaries came and step by my home. I felt so happy even the Missionaries were angels to me. They have brought me to church. I felt that the victory has come for me to be in his Church. I was seeking to help the Lord, be a missionary of the gospel of Jesus Christ to bring thousands of lost souls that they might know He is the God of Israel that by him and through him man may be saved. No other door can be the source of salvation. With the intention to bring people of other nations and exalt the Lord’s Name and bring the establish his Kingdom and usher the millenium for Jesus.

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  51. Michael,

    You may “feel” as though you have found the truth, but I wonder how much you studied the claims of these so-called “angels” concerning God and His Christ.

    Do you believe that there was a time when Jesus was not God? Or even a time when Jesus did not exist? Do you believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers? Do you believe that we can be a God like God Himself? These are all doctrines taught by Joseph Smith, and are still being taught by the LDS today.

    Jesus said that you must know God and His Christ to have eternal life (John 17:3). The Mormon church does not know the true God, they preach a false Christ (Matthew 24:24) and a false gospel (Galatians 1:8-9)> I would urge you to come out of Mormonism and find the truth. We will help you in every way we can so you may know the truth.

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