By Larry DeBruyn.
Bible Interpretation 101 teaches that every text without a context is pretext. Extracting Psalm 46:10 to be an endorsement of meditative-listening prayer is just such a pretext. Here’s why.
After reading Ephesians 1:15-23 (lectio divina, i.e. Latin for reading sacred things) at the Passion 2012 conference, and while standing on stage with the other keynote speakers beneath a giant screen reading Jesus, speak to me,
Beth Moore tells the audience:Without any comment please, let’s pause and be still,
and ask Jesus to speak His word to us.
Held in Atlanta, GA, last January 1-3, at the Georgia Dome, and attended by over 42,000 college age youth, one can observe Lecrae (a converted rap and Hip Hop artist), Francis Chan, Louie Giglio and John Piper, along with thousands of youth, participating in the mystical practice of contemplative or “listening” prayer at Moore’s behest, and this despite the fact that Scripture provides no instruction or any illustration for engaging in such a “spiritual” activity.
Those promoting contemplative or “listening” prayer refer to this Scripture as a biblical endorsement for pursuing this spiritual discipline. As a precondition for experiencing Soul-to-soul communication from God, contemplative Christians advocate cultivating quietude for the purpose of creating a spiritual tabula rasa(i.e., Latin for blank slate) in which personal communication from God can be received. Influential Christian leaders and spiritual directors encourage listening prayer (praying without words) as a means to experience ”God’s guidance in everyday life.” At face value, Psalm 46 verse 10 appears to endorse this increasingly popular but ancient and mystical way to pray.
A timely post in as much as many “Christians” have bought into this bag of tricks! Believe it or not and I’m sure you will, Robert Schuller was peddling this back in 1976! He called it “two way prayer.” :<(
Robert Schuller is the father of the seeker sensitive movement, based on the of his father, Norman Vincent Peale. Combine that bunch with the word of faith liars and the always with us Gnostics, and such as these emerge – from the ooze!
Hi Rev Limiter,
What is two way prayer? Humans pray but does God pray? What did Robert Schuller mean by this expression and what evidence do you have to support your claim that he was engaging in and promoting contemplative prayer?
Does all this type of praying really matter all that much? I guess the problem is that it increases the number of “crazies” attending church who think they are hearing directly from God. There are too many “Beth Moore’s” and other Charismaniacs who are duping gullible congregations.
We Quakers practise listening to ‘God’ in the silence but among those in the Quaker movement who are non Theists there is no pretending that God is being heard. There is a sense of a peaceful and calming presence but revelation is not claimed.
I, for one , practise analytical contemplation, not and emptying of the mind. I am not receiving special revelation in the process, but I do reflect on compassion, mercy and loving-kindness in human relationships and ‘God’s’ healing mercy..
John, Biblical meditation is focusing one’s mind and thoughts on the Word of God (what has been revealed to us in the Bible), contrasted with the none sense of the Gnostics. Quakerism is largely a Gnostic religion, coming from the Anabaptists. It’s good that you do not follow in the false practice of the empty mind.
This is very interesting because it kind of reminds me of what the Jews do at the wailing wall when they rock back and forth repeating the Torah.
Sadly, this is another reason why some of us have an issue with John Piper. Either he is implicit in his endorsements or explicit in who he chooses to associate with. There is no doubt that he has produced some good material, but a little leaven leavens the whole lump in my humble opinion. His following is large, but should never be so large that he is not willing to take a stand against the false teachings that are pervading the ranks of evangelicalism.
When I tried the silence years ago, all I heard was old tv show jingles..
“Kathy has lived most everywhere from Zanzabar to Berekley Square, but Patty’s only seen the sights a girl can see from Brooklyn Heights! But their cousins, identical cousins all the way! One pair of matching bookends, different as night and day!”
“Come ride a little train that is rolling down the track to the junction… Pettycoat Junction! That’s uncle Joe he’s a moven kind of slow to the junction…”
“Green Acres is the place to be fun living is the life for me, land spreading out so far and wide, keep Manhatten just gimme the country side. New York is where I’d rather be fun living is the life for me…”
“Making your way in the world today takes everything you got, taking a break from all your worries sure would help alot. You want to go where people go, where their troubles are all the same, you want to go where everybody knows your name…”
Hey, wait a minute! These sound like theme songs for self help mega-churches that practice the silence! Maybe there is a flesh benefit for them after all…
That scripture about their being given over to their delusions never made more sense!
Here’s a guarantee. If you are listening for something, someone will provide something for you to hear. If you are listening for a “spiritual voice” in a place / way that God hasn’t told you to listen, a spiritual power will step in and fill that vacancy.
If you are extremely vulnerable to deception, you’ll hear something that will lead you far astray. If not, you might hear things that are true, but in a way that shifts the focus from where God wants it to be.
You might even hear a “spiritual voice” telling you all about the Holy Spirit. That way, all of your attention will be on the Holy Spirit — but the Holy Spirit speaks of Christ, and draws our attention to the Lord Jesus.
Satan plays the long game. If he can just draw our attention off-focus a little bit, that will do for the time being — he’ll work that into more later. This kind of nonsense is a great starting place for him.
I openly challenge any of you people to email me and we will discuss why your views on my church, the Roman Catholic Church, are wrong. My email address is email@example.com.
As a great man once said, bring it on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keith. Did Mary sin? Or was she sinless her entire life?
Keith, do you even have a bible to read from, if so, what version, please?
Send me an email Micky Merrie.
Have the intestinal fortitude to discuss this out in the open, Keith. I simply asked you 2 questions.
I am the one you want to discuss this with, as I was born into, baptised into, had first holy communion within, was confirmed in, and even was a part of the Catholic Charismatic movement. It was in that movement that Jesus revealed to me the error of the “Roman church.”
It will be our discussion friend, and the rest will kindly stay out of it.
Now, did Mary live a sinless life, and do you have a bible? If you have a bible, please version is it?
Keith, this is from the New Living Translation, a commonly used version which is quite a popular choice among Catholics for its ease of understanding. This is from the gospel of Mark and starts with verse 20. Note please verse 21 and its relationship to the context of verse 22.
Jesus and the Prince of Demons
20One time Jesus entered a house, and the crowds began to gather again. Soon he and his disciples couldn’t even find time to eat. 21 WHEN HIS FAMILY (who? His Family!) heard what was happening, they tried to take him away. “He’s out of his mind,” they said. (His family thought He was crazy, so they went to get Him Keith! They too thought He was crazy and/or demon posessed as did the teachers! Now continue reading, please?)
22But the teachers of religious law who had arrived from Jerusalem said, “He’s possessed by Satan,e the prince of demons. That’s where he gets the power to cast out demons.”
23Jesus called them over and responded with an illustration. “How can Satan cast out Satan?” he asked. 24“A kingdom divided by civil war will collapse. 25Similarly, a family splintered by feuding will fall apart. 26And if Satan is divided and fights against himself, how can he stand? He would never survive. 27Let me illustrate this further. Who is powerful enough to enter the house of a strong man like Satan and plunder his goods? Only someone even stronger—someone who could tie him up and then plunder his house.
28“I tell you the truth, all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, 29but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences.” 30He told them this because they were saying, “He’s possessed by an evil spirit.” ( He knew their thoughts and even drew a distinction between a forgivable sin of not believing Him, and a blasphamy against the Holy Spirit which is unforgivable.)
The True Family of Jesus
31Then Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him. They stood outside and sent word for him to come out and talk with them. 32There was a crowd sitting around Jesus, and someone said, “Your mother and your brothersf are outside asking for you.” (So we see them arriving to get Him still doubting Him and thinking He is crazy or demon posessed.)
33Jesus replied, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 34Then he looked at those around him and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. 35Anyone who does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother. (So, you see Keith, Mary was guilty of the sin of unbelief in Jesus as Lord of all, thinking He was out of His mind or demon posessed. Further we see Jesus clearly defining His family as those who do the will of His Father. Obviously Mary was in sin due to her unbelief, Keith!)
Now look at the Gospel of Luke and see what Mary said, along with her Aunt Elizabeth, the mother of John the baptiser…
New Living Translation
42Elizabeth gave a glad cry and exclaimed to Mary, “God has blessed you above all women, and your child is blessed. 43Why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord (See Keith, Lord!)should visit me? 44When I heard your greeting, the baby in my womb jumped for joy. 45You are blessed because you believed that the Lord would do what he said.” (Belief here turned to unbelief later, as seen earlier which is sin, Keith!)
The Magnificat: Mary’s Song of Praise
“Oh, how my soul praises the Lord.
47How my spirit rejoices in God my Savior!
48For he took notice of his lowly servant girl,
and from now on all generations will call me blessed.
49For the Mighty One is holy,
and he has done great things for me.
50He shows mercy from generation to generation
to all who fear him.
51His mighty arm has done tremendous things!
He has scattered the proud and haughty ones.
52He has brought down princes from their thrones
and exalted the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
and sent the rich away with empty hands.
54He has helped his servant Israel
and remembered to be merciful.
55For he made this promise to our ancestors,
to Abraham and his children forever.”
By calling Him Lord, and by singing this song of praise and declaring that she knew of Him being the promised Messiah/Savior she is admitting she too as part of the promise bows to Him as Lord, thus she is no different then anyone else, except that she is blesssed to be a bit player in His passion!
Keith- I do not wish to debate with you but here are some links that you could humble yourself and read before the God of the bible judges rome and damns you to the lake of fire. -Jim
To answer your questions, Mary did not sin in her life and she was sinless her entire life.
Fleebabylon, Jack Chick and those like him, are so off the beaten path, they are not even worth discussing. In fact, even Protestant Apologists, who are not friendly to the Catholic Church, would say he is worthless in what he says.
Thanks for the verses and conversation Micky.
Jesus pointing out the fact that his true brothers, mother, or sisters are those who believe in him is no different than Paul pointing out that just because you are a Jew by birth or family doesn’t mean you are saved. Unbelief is not necessarily a sin. A tribesman in the Amazon who hasn’t yet heard the gospel and believed might be guilty of ignorance or not knowing but not true sin. Second, I would dispute that Mary did not believe since she told God yes, which was an effective counter to Eve’s no when she disobeyed God. Mary was our Savior’s first disciple.
Neither I nor the Catholic Church disputes the fact Mary called God her savior. The way that the church has understood this is Mary was saved in a special way by the Merits of Christ. Her remaining sinless through her life makes sense in that Mary was the new ark, carrying our savior, Jesus Christ. It wouldn’t make sense for the vessel which brought Christ into the world to have been stained by sin, either before or after his birth.
Third, if Mary is “full fo Grace”, then how can sin enter in her? It wouldn’t make sense!
Fourth, if I believe the church was correct in the Canon of Scripture or at least the New Testament (what you and I would agree on), was correct in who Christ was, his Resurrection, etc., why wouldn’t I believe she is incorrect with her views on Mary?
It would be arrogant of me to assume I am right and the church, with all her tradition, teachers, saints, etc. is wrong!
“It would be arrogant of me to assume I am right and the church, with all her tradition, teachers, saints, etc. is wrong!”
The counterfit church, the harlot imposter of the bride of Christ is wrong. What is arrogant is for you to presume to be in Christ while being joined to the harlot rome.
Your opinion Flee 🙂
keith, the burden of proof is on you to show us (from Scripture ALONE) that Mary was “sinless”. It’s not there.
Mickey Merrie has graciously and faithfully pointed out in Scripture that Mary was indeed calling God her SAVIOR.. Sinless people do not need a savior.. “Oh, how my soul praises the Lord.
47How my spirit rejoices in God my Savior!
48For he took notice of his lowly servant girl,
and from now on all generations will call me blessed.
The fact that Mary and Joseph offered 2 Turtle doves -Luke 2:22-2:24 is unassailable proof that she was a sinner. Sinless people don’t bring offerings to cover for their sins if they are sinless-
Also, Mary being rebuked by Jesus in Luke 2:48-50 is proof that she sinned. Mary mistakenly thinks that Jesus has mistreated her, criticizes Jesus by asking Him why He treated His parents that way, is rebuked by Jesus, and is referred to by Luke as being ignorant of what Jesus was saying.
ignorance is not a sinless trait btw- it is evidence of an imperfect human sinfallen state.
The Virgin birth was not the source of Christ’s sinlessness because Mary was a sinner-Scripture Luke 1:47. Jesus was sinless because He was the sinless Son of God the Father for all eternity. The Virgin birth was just a “sign” that Jesus is sinless. Luke 1:26 the announcement is an announcement that God has inferred on Mary not that Mary deserved it or earned it. When the Angel Gabriel said rejoice and blessed are you among women, It “IS” a special privilege this great grace God has inferred on her. Mary is no better than any other women but she is Blessed above all women in that she was privileged to carry the Messiah.
As far as it goes for Christ’s divinity, His divinity is described in terms of God and never in terms of Mary. Mary did NOT give birth to God the Son, she gave birth to Jesus. She is not the Mother of God -God is ETERNAL and Mary could not have been the mother of God since she is NOT eternal ~ nowhere is this taught in Scripture. It’s only made up and taught by the “traditions of men” in the RCC.God in Christ is in Christ not because of Mary but because of the Holy Spirit of God and the Bible makes this very, very clear. This is the God-Man God participated and he used Mary as the vessel of his participitation. Mary (never magnifies herself) She says my soul magnifies the LORD my Savior. Mary glorifies God not herself and that’s what we should do follow HER example and not false teachings. it’s all about God.
Also, the fact that MARY was born from SINNERS herself from a man and woman-her parents who were sinners passed down to Mary that she was a sinner. This debunks any arguments that Mary was a sinless. Sin is passed down by the earthly FATHER. Jesus’ Father was not an earthly father but God the Father through the virgin birth which bypassed Joseph. ANd by the way, our SINS are not removed including Mary’s by anything -not even the virgin birth but the shed blood of Jesus Christ-“for without the shedding of BLOOD there IS no forgiveness”-
-“For if the many died by the trespass of the one man”,16-Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin:”, 17-“by the trespass of the one man, death reigned”, 18-“just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for (ALL MEN)”, 19-“through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners”, -Romans 5:15-19
btw, Who says that Mary had to be without sin to bear Christ? NO ONE in the Bible and no one in the very early church. It was made up later by Pope Pius IX
“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.”
—Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854
All these practices in this list are TRADITIONS OF MEN and nowhere found in the word of GOD.. And what did Jesus say about ALL who add the traditions of men? They NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD-Matthew 15:16, Mark 7:13~ None of this is found in the bible but made up dogmas by the RCC_
every single one is refuted from Scripture to be FALSE
1. Mary Full of Grace -I’ve already explained
2. Entrust our cares to Mary: (CCC 2677).
3. Ask Mary to pray for us: (CCC 2677).
4. Mary is Advocate, Helper, Mediatrix: [Mary] (CCC, par. 969)
5. Mary brings us the gifts of eternal salvation: Mary is “The mother of the members of Christ,” (CCC par. 963). She was “Preserved free from all stain of original sin,” (CCC, par. 966). She is “Queen over all things” (par. 966).
6. Mary Delievers our souls: By Mary’s prayers, she delivers souls from death (CCC par. 966).
7. Mary brings us the gifts of Eternal Life: Mary, “…by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation…. (CCC par. 969)
8. Marian prayer is epitome of the gospel: “The Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix” (CCC par. 969).
9. Marian Prayer: “The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, are an epitome of the whole Gospel,” (par. 971).
10. Pray to Mary: “Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father.” (CCC 2679)
11. Mary taken into heaven: Mary, “…when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven…” (par. 974).
12. Mary is worshipped: “…when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son…” (Vatican Council II, p. 420). See quote in Context
13. Mary is 2nd only to Jesus: “Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son” (Vatican Council II, p. 421). “This mother…is waiting and preparing your home for you,” (Handbook for Todays Catholic, p.31).
14. Mary sits at the right hand of Christ: “…she is the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces. Jesus “sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high” (Hebrews i. b.). Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son…” (Pope Pius X, 1835-1914, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, 14).
Christ Jesus paid such a dear price for the sins of men that we ought not trust our souls to what men teach. Here is why:
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
I assure you that these traditions are rampant in all the 50,000+ daughters that came out of Rome as well. What we need to do is take Jesus at His Word, as revealed to us by scripture through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. These is nobody that frequents this site that wants to argue with you to win a word fight. We all recognize the error of the traditions of men to some degree. Stop defending your favorite team and start “working out your salvation through fear and trembling” and “study to be sure you are in the faith.” Paul counted his religious past as dung and sat at Jesus’ feet like (another) Mary and learned of Him. We all do well likewise to count our religious past as dung and sit at His feet.
I clearly and simply showed you Mary was with sin. You reject it by the traditions taught you by men. 2 others were too kind to sit on the sidelines, as they too contended for the faith and your soul. With Flee Babylon, you attempted to put your much more broad traditions against his suggestions as “off the beaten path” thus you admit your traditions blindness by you own words!
You have been presented with 3 witnesses to your error, each pointing to scripture for your consideration.
Keith, this is a blindspot that you have. Cry out to God for His Truth to be revealed to you through the Holy Spirit so that you might see your error and repent.
These words you reject will either convict you through the work of the Holy Spirit now, or be the very words that bring condemnation upon you one day.
May God have mercy upon you today as He has had upon me when I walked your way in my past, and has he had upon my brother Flee and sister Linda. For we all deserve the Lake of Fire except that Jesus, through the Work of the Holy Spirit replaced my trust upon mens traditions with a love and trust upon my Lord Jesus Christ by causing me, a spiritually dead man to be made alive, and born from above to see His Truth, and my wretched lostness.
My prayer is He too would do this for you.
There is Hope, and His Name is Jesus. Mary was a blessed bit player in His passion just like Abraham, Moses, Daniel, David and the rest of mankind.
May the Lord of Glory open your eyes and ears so that you can see and repent too…
THE PURPOSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
1) He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and of judgment.
John 16:8-11 “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.”
2) He transforms us in the sight of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
3) He helps us to remember the word of God.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
4) He helps us to lead a godly life.
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit (evidence) of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
5) He gives us spiritual gifts for the edification of believers.
1 Corinthians 12:4-7 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
6) He is our guarantee of eternal life with God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
7) He empowers us to be witnesses for our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.”
Acts 1:8 “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.
1 Corinthians 2:4-5 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Diversionary tactics by Keith on this thread.
Agreed Jon. Keith appears to be hijacking this article with the only intent being to promote the false teachings of the Catholic Church. This won’t be allowed to continue.
Keith said that “Unbelief was not sin”. I believe that the only sin a man will go to hell for is “Unbelief”.
L: I believe that the only sin a man will go to hell for is “Unbelief”.
John 3:17-19 agrees. I just wrote on this last week. http://mindrenewers.com/2013/01/19/condemnation-why-and-for-what/
Jon and L – it is far too simplistic to say that unbelief is the only sin that will send a man to hell. ALL sin will send a man to hell – unless he believes on the Lord Jesus. Salvation does not reduce the penalty for all other sins – it merely puts them on Christ’s account. Unbelief keeps all sin on the man’s account – every single one of them sending him to hell to be tormented day and night for eternity as he continues to sin and earn God’s unending wrath.
Perhaps it is a little simplistic, Manfred. John 3:17-19 is pretty clear. The penalty a condemned person receives is for his sins, his love of darkness and his evil deeds. But the only reason he receives that penalty is because of unbelief.
The key to understanding this, as you note, is imputation.
My comment about unbelief being the only sin that puts a person in hell is due to my understanding of Grace. Jesus Christ died for ALL sin on the cross, did He not? Afterall, when He died on the cross 2,000 years ago we were not even born a sinner yet. This means there is no sin unaccounted for~no sin that hasn’t been paid for. All sin; past, present, and future. It would be an insult to God if a person damned to eternal hell stood before Him and said he had sins that were not paid for. His Son paid the price.
So, as we await our Blessed Hope, the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ may we continue to encourage each other in love 🙂
L – Christ paid the price for the sins of the elect, not all the people of all times. All sin and any sin will have a person come up short on Judgment Day if his name is not in the Lamb’s Book of Life (which was written before the foundation of the world). Unbelief is merely the condition of one who is not elect. Such persons are doomed by everything that springs forth from their sinful soul – thought, word, and deed.
How sad to think Christ died only for certain people. I believe John 3:16 says “For God so loved the World” How do you share the love of Christ? Do you tell them Christ died for some people and some sins, and hopefully they are on the list? It seems prideful. How are you certain you are one of the few elect? Have you seen the Lamb’s Book of Life?
Could it be possible that every person’s name was written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, from Adam to the last person in history? Those who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins, was buried, and rose again will have their names removed.
I’ve not been a believer all that long. I don’t have degrees or special education that would qualify me to be an expert in interpretting the Bible. I know what I believe though and I would fall on my sword for it…something many people who call themselves Christians would not be able to do. I do believe God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for the sin of all mankind.
We are not sinners because we sin ~ We sin because we are sinners. Man is not doomed due to his actions of sinning.
L – a proper translation of John 3:16 is quite different from what most English speakers comprehend. I recommend you watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDxRss_v78A and this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPz2KH2nvf4 to better understand the biblical meaning of that verse. And this post explains the doctrine of limited atonement: http://defendingcontending.com/2011/12/06/for-whom-did-christ-die-the-simple-logic-of-limited-atonement/
L – What may seem sad to you is also not biblical. The only biblical option is that Christ died for the sins of the elect only. Otherwise you’d have people in Hell who had their sins paid for…that is illogical and unbiblical. We can’t interpret scripture based on it being sad in our fallen and depraved eyes. Take some time and go through the links that Manfred listed above to see what we mean.
Also, you can witness to any person knowing that if they are one of God’s predestined children, they will come to faith. We don’t have to be salesman or try to determine who IS the elect…we must be faithful to speak, tell them to repent and that God loves His children. The spirit will do the work. Christ died to reconcile sinners to God. (2 Cor 5:18-21). Tell every sinner this and that if they believe, they have eternal life. We are to be ambassadors only. God does the heart changing, faith creating, life giving work.
in His grace,
I am really confused. I want to understand this correctly. These teachers that say you can hear God speak to you are wrong? God does not speak to us personally, but only through his Word? When I pray, I speak to God, but he only answers me through what has been written and no other way?
Do I have this correct? Please point out any errors. Thank you.
II Corinthians 5:18
“And all things are of God, who hath (past tense) reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us (the believer) the ministry of reconciliation; 19. To wit, (that is to say) that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses (sins) unto them; (they’re forgiven) and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.:”
We are to tell a lost world that because of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, He has already reconciled them, but if they refuse to believe this truth they are damned.
I read nowhere in Paul’s letters to us that Christ died only for a few elect. The words elect, chosen, remnant is just that…small remnant. What an offense to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to say when he died on the cross He only bore a few sins! I’m sure His Father would have a few things to say concerning that.
I believe we are coming from different belief systems. I will respectively back down, but not because I believe you have convinced me of anything, rather because you are just as strong in what you believe as I am. I would rather share the love of Christ than to debate it.
L- please take time to read this previous post I wrote on this blog regarding this topic. it deals with all your concerns. http://defendingcontending.com/2011/12/06/for-whom-did-christ-die-the-simple-logic-of-limited-atonement/
There is no offense to the Lord in stating that he died for the elect and that His sins provided the perfect atoning sacrifice for the sins of the Elect. I would suggest you consider what it means to have souls in hell that Christ died for. How do you reconcile that? If Christ died for every living person ever, then his death was NOT effective or sufficient since it didn’t actually save all those souls who are in hell. Unless you are a universalist, which changes the conversation significantly.
So the question to you becomes: a) do all people go to heaven? b) does no one go to heaven? and c) do some go to heaven? I assume you agree with me that c) is the correct answer…some go to heaven. If Christ’s death was for all people for all time…why are there any people in hell? I believe it is incredibly offensive to the Lord to suggest that his death couldn’t atone for the sins of all those souls in hell.
Christ died for the elect. His sacrifice atoned for the sins of those predestined before time began. Who are the elect? According to Ephesians Chapter 1 it is very simple – the elect were predestined before time began for adoption as sons. Read that link above and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
Regarding backing down…I’m not sure what belief system you are suggesting you are coming from in that statement, but I am fully confident that I am speaking from Biblical Christianity of which there is 1 core orthodox doctrine of salvation. We can let minor issue go, but the atonement of Christ IS the core issue of Christianity. We can’t agree to disagree on the atonement.
I look forward to your thoughts on these questions.
in His grace,
I’m not the best when it comes to the teaching of “contemplative prayer.” However, I can say that anything that mixes eastern religion (i.e. like this method of meditation) is unbiblical. We as Christians are to pray to the Lord (conversation) and to meditate on scripture (His words). We are not called to have empty minds and wait for God to speak to us in that state. Our hearts and minds are deceitfully dreadfully wretched and wicked…why would we trust our own minds and hearts. God speaks to us through His Word. I think it is clear that He also answers prayers and guides us through events, urgings, and other people. Trying to sort out what “God spoke to you” is a fools errand, really. God spoke through His Word and it is clear. The influence of TV evangelists, eastern religion, extreme charismatic teaching all influence the church heavily in a negative way when it comes to hearing God speak. The best thing we can do is love God with all our heart and depend fully on His word alone and not let any outside influences or our own sinfulness have an equal standing with the Word.
Sounds like you are thinking in the right way. I hope this helps a bit.
Here are a few links to articles written and posted here at DefCon that might be a help to learn a little bit more about contemplative mysticism.
Our Daily Bread Crumbles
Beth Moore and John Piper leading Lectio Divina Prayer at Passion 2012