53 thoughts on “The Evil Oath of a Shriner”

1. What really amazes me is that people that are supposed to be Christians would be willing to swear by Allah! They are either NOT saved or they have hardened their hearts to such and extent that they don’t care what the Bible says about worshiping any other God other then the True and Living God!

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2. Koran and Bible are from the same roots. Both go hand in hand.

   Yahweh = Christian God = Allah

   Traditions, notions, and customs may be different, but the RELIGIONS have roots within the same FAITH.

   Stop diverging the truth.

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3. Dr. G,

   You’re insulting Islam and Christianity. Yahweh is Triune. Allah is unitarian. The teachings of Christianity are completely different from Islam. How could the same God teach so many different doctrines?

   Christians believe Jesus, who is God, died on the cross and rose from the dead. Muslims believe Jesus was just a prophet, and it was an illusion that Jesus died on the cross. He was actually assumed into heaven. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, Christianity is worthless (1 Corinthians 15:17). Many of the creeds in Islam are denials of Christianity.

   Are you a shriner?

   Thanks,
   Bill

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4. Dr. G,

   Your comment is born either of gross ignorance or willful deception. In either case you are flat wrong and anyone who has the least interest in the actual truth of the matter can easily investigate, document and understand the myriad irreconcilable disparities between the false god of Islam and the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible.

   In Christ,
   CD

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5. I am not a Shriner, I am Apostolic Christian, and how can one state that another religion is false, when they can’t even prove their religion is the truth.

   You are disgusting human beings.

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6. Dr. /G\,

   Maybe if you were a Biblical Christian, then you would know how easy it is to declare that any AND every man-made religion is false and is born of the devil (the evil one, Satan, Lucifer).

   Our purpose is not to prove that our “religion” is the truth, but to defend and contend for the truth of the Word of God. While religion is all based upon traditions of man, salvation is based solely by grace through faith alone in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

   Allah is a part of worship that is based on the worship of the moon and has some of its origins in the worship of Baal. It is a false religion that is damning the souls of untold billions to a Christ-less eternity.

   The Lord Jesus Christ Himself said in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me.”

   So, the question here is simple, Dr. /G\ — Is God right, or are you right? If God is right, then you sadly are very gravely mistaken in your understanding of Scripture! If you are right, then there is no hope for any of mankind! If you are right, then all roads lead to eternity without the need of the blood atonement or sacrifice made by Jesus Christ and sadly He died in vain!

   Truth or Consequences — No, I am not talking about a town in southern New Mexico, USA. The truth is – You are VERY wrong. If you do not believe the Bible and the truth contained in it, the truth is not in you and you are not a true child of God. The consequences are dreadful for judgment is coming to all who reject salvation through Jesus Christ alone.

   What is it to be, Dr /G\? God’s way, or your way? Your way will last only as long as you draw borrowed breaths, and even then it is only futility on your part for Proverbs makes it clear – “There is a way that seems right unto a man but the end thereof is the way of death!” Make your decision wisely for after this comes the judgment and the One on the Throne does NOT bear the name of Allah!

   The Desert Pastor

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7. Dr. /G\,

   Do “Apostolic Christians” such as yourself teach and believe that all human beings are “disgusting human beings”, or is that designation reserved for those who reject your patently absurd notion that the followers of Islam and Christianity worship the same deity?

   Also Jesus Christ said that He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life and that NO ONE comes to the Father except through Him.

   Was Jesus Christ lying when He made this claim? If not then all other faiths apart from Biblical Christianity must be false.

   Would you say that you’re born again, Dr. /G\?

   In Christ,
   CD

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8. Why can’t some individuals understand that all of the major faiths (judaism, christianity, and Islam are one? They are the same message! Put aside your differences and live in peace. Let God judge between you on the day of judgement. Every single individual that has posted a comment above me lacks tremendous knowledge on the subject of religion, yet they post comments pretending like they have a clue. Funny isn’t it? I implore everyone above me and all those who read this to study these books as they should be studied, not just the Bible or Qur’an but all, then form an opinion on the matter.

   Best Regards,
   Ray

   ”Acquire knowledge. It enables its possessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lightens the way to Heaven; it is our friend in the desert, our society in solitude, our companion when friendless; it guides us to happiness; it sustains us in misery; it is an ornament amoung friends and an armour against enemies”

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9. “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
   – Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

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10. “I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.” John 10:9 — Jesus

    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.” John 11:25

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11. The decieved do not know they are decieved! The god of this world blinds them. The LIGHT that guides those who practice the craft only draws them further into the darkness. The oaths they take empower them to believe they are becoming a better man. The good that they proclaim is filth in the eyes of the God of the Bible! Only Jesus the Christ can save!

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12. Dear Ray, Dear Dr. G.

    On the surface of these religions there are some similarities, but since these religions are SEPARATE from one another means that there are some distinct differences. I call these contradictions.

    For example, Islam believes in one deity, and one alone, which means that Allah has no sons (just to paraphrase). The Quran also sternly warns against apostasy from the one God, and directly tells believers and non believers alike not to utter the word Trinity.
    Though Trinity is not in the Bible explicitly, it is referring to God in three forms – I know you guys are Christians so I don’t need to go over the basics of this.

    Christianity says that you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven by your own works but we are all saved by Grace through Jesus Christ who is Lord and Savior.

    I don’t know about you, but I see differences that can separate people into two groups here.

    I’m quite tired of this “all religions are the same” “it doesn’t matter which one you follow”. It’s like saying “all women are the same, you can marry one but screw around with the others if you like” When you make a committed to anything, that means that you’re loyalty is to it! It’s not half half, it’s all or nothing. When you claim that you are Christian, that means you’ve cut off anything else that is NOT Christian.

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13. @Dr G,
    How much you are blinded… I worship Yahweh but am being harrassed by the local freemasonry, Luciferians.

    But what they do is making my faith in Jesus ever more firm.

    To Others,

    Harrassment appear in many forms, “wrong number” calls, off comments of discussions spoken in private that only you or a loved one may know (they practice astral projection among other magic) a day or so later, indirect threats, vehicle tampering, and most over looked- email spam (they know your sin(s) (therefore enticing you) and want you to react to their annoyances. Don’t.

    Legal means will only gain you more trouble, as they have infiltrated many world governments, but seek to be saved from Jesus alone. An investigation needs to be done to see if the infiltration has poisoned the Acts 29 network. A person who has conviction by the Holy Spirit to be baptized, should not be refused.

    Do not speak to or entertain demons. Learn scripture and better your relationship with Yahweh, our father.

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14. Sorry, Bill, not all Christian believe that Jesus is God, but the Son of God as is so clearly noted in Scripture. Even Jesus himself stated there is only one God and Him only shalt you served….. please don’t be so quick to speak for all Christians with your comments and/or opinions. Undoubtedly you will deem my comments herectical and if possible burn me to the stake as so many of likeminded people did many years ago.

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15. Randy,

    1. Exactly 100% of Christians have their past, present and future sins forgiven.

    2. If someone claims to be a Christian but doesn’t have all of their sins forgiven, they aren’t really a Christian.

    3. Jesus said that unless we believe that He is the I AM, we will die in our sins (John 8:24).

    4. Anyone who doesn’t believe that Jesus is the I AM doesn’t have their sins forgiven.

    5. Therefore, those who don’t believe Jesus is God are not Christians.

    I’d love to discuss this with you further. Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? Are you born again?

    Thanks for your comment.
    Bill

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16. Hi Randy,

    Jesus Christ is YAHWEH (YHWH), Jehovah God.

    There is only ONE Eternal God identified by the name Jehovah (YAHWEH / YHWH). But there are THREE PERSONS who are identified by the name Jehovah (YAHWEH / YHWH) in the Holy Bible. This is why true Christians affirm that the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible is eternally existent as a Trinity in Unity (TRI-UNITY), because this is the teaching of the Holy Bible, God’s only self-revelation of Himself to men.

    The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are ALL identified as YAHWEH (Jehovah / YHWH) in the Bible. See John 12:39-41 and compare it with Isaiah 6, and look at Psalm 102:25-27 and Hebrews 1:10-12 in your Bible and see if what is being described in Psalm 102:25-27 could only be true of Jehovah God (YAHWEH / YHWH). Notice that this Psalm describes attributes unique to YAHWEH (Jehovah / YHWH) alone, and then read Hebrews 1:10-12 and note that the very same attributes are ascribed by the Holy Bible to Jesus Christ.

    Furthermore Revelation chapters 4 and 5 provide a glimpse into the throne room of heaven. These two books are filled with worship of God in heaven by the entire created universe – ALL created things are worshipping God Almighty. What we see is the continuous worship of God Almighty in heaven, we see a heavenly worship scene. It’s very, very clear that this is the worship of God Almighty, in heaven, before His throne.

    Then a scroll is introduced…no one is worthy to open the scroll, no one in all creation is worthy – I repeat, NO CREATED BEING IS FOUND WORTHY. But what do we see next? We see the Lamb take the scroll, and the same elders who have been falling down before Jehovah God (YAHWEH / YHWH) on His throne, who have been falling down before Him in worship now fall down before the Lamb, each holding bowls of incense filled with the prayers of the saints, and the elders sing a new song, which is joined by the entire created universe, including all the angels – EXACTLY as they were giving worship to “Him who sits upon the throne” in chapter 4.

    Every created thing in the entire created universe ascribes glory to whom?

    “To Him that sits upon the throne and the Lamb.”

    There is a dual object of worship here. Him who sits upon the throne is an object of worship, and so is the Lamb. This could only be possible if Jesus Christ – the Lamb – is God (Jehovah, YAHWEH, YHWH), otherwise the entire created universe is guilty of engaging in rank pagan idolatry in front of Jehovah God’s very throne.

    You can’t pretend like the Lamb isn’t there, nor can you pretend that the entire created universe isn’t actually worshipping the One True and Living God in heaven, Him who sits upon the throne, and the Lamb.

    Again, the ENTIRE CREATED UNIVERSE offers up worship to the Father and the Son, to Him who sits upon the throne and the Lamb. This leaves no room for any mere created being to receive worship, since they’re ALL worshipping God. Furthermore we know that the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible will not share His glory with another, and that there is no other God beside Him alone, and therefore we know for certain that God would not by any means permit worship from His creation in His own heavenly throne room in heaven to be given to another. Happily Revelation 5 is a very short chapter, so I’ll post it in its entirety below.

    1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

    2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

    3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

    5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

    12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    We know what the scriptures testify about who Jesus Christ is; but who do you say Jesus Christ is, Randy?

    In Christ,
    CD

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17. Deuteronomy 6:4–“Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God, YHVH is one!”

    John 10:30-33–“I and My Father are one!” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him…”For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    Even the Jews knew Jesus was claiming to be God.

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18. Why is KEN COPELAND A MASON ? 32 DEGREE

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19. Maybe a better question would be – Why isn’t Ken Copeland a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ?

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20. I question the accuracy of your sources I think the truth about the Shriners is much less exciting, definately not hollywood worthy entertainment. They value “being religious” which is both pointless and dangerous to the soul, and then seek to elevate themselves by doing good works. Elevating the spirit of man much in the way Islam does.

    The Shrine is not different than ANY religion. Christianity, technically speaking is not a religion, since God intervenes changes man’s heart and provides the propitiation (sacrifices himself) for his own wrath.

    Christians cannot claim any goodness themselves, for they know they are sinners forgiven. Any good works therefore are just the actions of a grateful people who have been transformed by love.

    To outsiders, yes, we are always questioning those who place much emphasis on goodworks. Are they trying to make self acceptable to God and others? Are they trying to cover over sins instead of repenting, cutting them out by the root and accepting God’s gracious forgiveness? We are suspicious because we have suffered the same affliction ourselves.

    Do good cults are dangerous to the soul because they take the Glory away from God and give it to man. Ultimately making man his own savior. Man is ignorant and often thinks things good that have an evil end.

    Only when we surrender ourselves to the Service of God and to an humble acceptance of our wretched state that cannot be altered by our own devices can we do what will be a lasting good.

    To my wiccan friend I have said “and just who are you to know what is good for someone? You say you cast spells to do good- if you are not a Soveriegn God how do you know?”

    The doctor who performed lobotomies with an ice pick was utterly convinced he was a great do gooder. No one could convince him different. Rachel Carson was convinced she was saving the birdies and millions in Africa died. The man who convinced companies to donate infant formula to Africa killed thousands as babies ingested bacteria infested water. We tried to give them vaccinations for disease and it spread HIV because they were too poor to buy new needles. The Presbyterians donated hundreds of thousands to Robert Mugabe. Bill and Melinda Gates may yet kill millions more despite their best intentions. Burning out the soil by using fertilizer,and filling the water with pesticides. Who knows which course is right? God alone. Who are we to take his place?

    Daniel, if you are not some nihilist entertaining yourself- I will eat my hat. But then you’d probably say I was a member of a hat eating luceferian cult!

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21. Speaking of Copeland, let us not forget that his Jesus “was the first man to be born again from sin, sickness, demons, death to life.“

    This is called rank heresy. No one who believes and teaches this can be called a brother.

    For more info on Copeland, check out the video on this post. And here’s another disturbing video of him and Rodney Howard-Browne.

    – The Pilgrim

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22. The pilgrims word`s say it all, there`s nothing else to say…..dito dito dito……JESUS SAID NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME…..I DON`T UNDERSTAND WHY THAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND…..notice he did`nt incorporate the other false gods with this teaching……..

    I believe the people who are saying that all religeons are the same are people who clearly don`t know the BIBLE…..they are just saying what they have heard others say, they have`nt studied the BIBLE, they are simply saying what they have heard someone else say……..I AM THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME, WORD`S OF JESUS……..AND HE MENTIONED NO OTHER GOD OR NO OTHER WAY, ONLY HIM……HE SAID BEFORE ME THERE WAS FORMED NO OTHER GOD, I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST, I WILL BE WITH YOU UNTIL THE END…..NONE OF THESE OTHER FALSE GODS MADE THAT CLAIM………

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23. The thing that gets me about so called Christians and the religion is, these are the same people that brought slaves from Africa rapped, murdered and beat living humans, called them selves Christians.

    How could you go to church worship Jesus and own slaves?? Most people of all religions dont practice what is being taught in the holy books they argue over religions like a sports team.
    (my team is better and this is why – nanny nanny boo boo)

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24. Hi Bow Peep,

    There are Christians who rap, although I’m not aware of any who rapped while murdering and beating living humans. Logically wouldn’t a human need to be living in order for him or her to be murdered? How many Christians do you personally know who own slaves?

    To be very frank with you it sounds like you’re simply giving litany of lame excuses to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. You hate the One true and living God and His Christ, and you love your sin. It’s pretty simple.

    You’ll get no disagreement from me that all human religions are false and incoherent, and their adherents are inconsistent and irrational. Only the divinely revealed faith known Biblical Christianity is true.

    In Christ,
    CD

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25. Christians believe in the Trinity, Muslims do not, they are monotheistic. Christians believe Jesus is the Son Of God/ Muslims say God has no son. Muslims say Jesus was a great teacher, but Jesus taught: I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but through me (Jesus). You can’t have it both ways, the two are diametrically opposed to each other.

    Oh, by the way, my dad went as high as you can go in the Masons and was a Shriner. I have studies it all… a LOT

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26. All children of The Alpha and Omega know that the Universe is presided over by an Intelligence so powerful, so wondrous and mysterious that it is impossible to define or label it in any way. It is like a child blowing soap bubbles. Once you think you have caught the bubble, it no longer exists…but more and more bubbles come along. If you reach for something you can never hold, what is the point? The true love of God can only be found within. It is the Peace that passeth understanding. God does not wish you to sow discord among yourselves. Go back to your closets and say a prayer of Thanksgiving that you are a Miracle.

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27. I have to take an entrance exam at the al bahr shriners temple today for california border patrol.

    God forgive me for even setting foot in this place. I feel sick.

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28. i’ve read exerpts from the koran. my dad told me some of the stories that are similR YET DIFFERENT. those who say islam and christianity were similar, was the founder, jesus, a man married to a nine year old girl and when he had visions, did he consult that wife because he was unsure if he was demon possessed or or recieving divine revelation? muhommed was. did jesus try to conquer by force, or was that people bearing his name acted wrongly? muhommed conquered.
    jesus healed.

    the gnostics in the bible were the ones who developed into this religion. stories in the gnostic gospels are apart of the quaran such as jesus preforming transmorgrification. im sorry, breathing on a clay bird and making it into a real bird that flew away sounds like something straight from alchemy.

    that being said, muslims are very offended by freemasonry and believe they are being persecuted by them.
    shriners are a branch of freemasonry

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29. There was a great division amoung the children of abraham long ago when the child of the bondwoman and the woman was sent away. That was the father of the arabs and their religion is based on muslim beliefs. Issac went on to become father of Jacob and Essau. Jacob became Isreal after wresting with an angel all night. Now both sides, three sides if we count the children of Essau, claim that abraham is their father. Abraham was a friend to the Lord as he did visit him and was promised that if you could count the stars of heaven or the granuals of sand on the ground then you could number his children. Jesus as i am showed up as a burning fire to Moses. Then was later transfigured befor Peter with Moses and Abraham Present. It’s is not hard for me to believe that Jesus is God and that he is the flesh representation of God And The holy spirit quickens all life ie: God is the God of the living not the god of the dead. And he was crusified because of that very same claim. So since he is God then he will rise from the dead as evidence to all humanity. If you believe this then you are saved and that was his gracious purpose.Good works are ok but without faith works are dead and for that matter filthy rags. Arguing about what is true is probably why Jesus is the only one that can open the book as mentioned in Revelations. All of us are born into the world with no knowlege but what we learn and sponge up and that passed on in writtings left to us by our for fathers and who knows what lies were introduced over the ages. God only knows the truth. You just have to have faith.

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30. When we each die, I believe we will either then: understand good and evil and meet our Maker or just cease to exist like a long passed pet. Until then, our thoughts and beliefs are just theories and should be forced on no one, and we should judge no one else’s beliefs.

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31. Ken, thank you for stopping by. I find it very interesting that in your attempt to share what you believe, you have in turn appeared to judge us. You see, we believe in Sola Scriptura and the Scriptures teach that:

    1) The only opportunity we have to accept Christ is in this life.
    2) The only way we can understand good and evil, and what is required by God, is to be illuminated by the power of the Holy Spirit. When this happens, we call it the new birth.
    3) After death, we will either face God as our Judge or as our Savior. There is no in-between.
    4) There is only one way to heaven and that is through Christ Jesus. This means that those who hold to any other belief system will find themselves sadly disappointed when they face God on the day of their judgment.

    So, you see, Ken, this is the truth of Scripture, but because it does not line up with what you believe to be a possible theory, you believe that we are wrong. You have thus judged us for our stand on Scripture in favor of one theory that provides no hope to anybody.

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32. ” Until then, our thoughts and beliefs are just theories and should be forced on no one, and we should judge no one else’s beliefs.”

    Ken, do you consider yourself to be a good person? Take the Good person Test and find out.

    http://www.livingwaters.com/good/001b.shtml

    -Jim

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33. I was hoping to see the comments either confirm or question the veracity of the wording of the oath itself. Not hearing otherwise, I suppose I can reference it with confidence to expose the group. Instead of that clarification, lots of off-topic debate to read through. Try not to be derailed friends by silly people who would dare conflate islam with the Way of Christ.

    One key thought to consider…. Jesus explicitly forbade oaths themselves, stating that anything beyond a yes yes, or no no is from evil. Perhaps that argument is left alone these days because very few believers regard it as valid anymore.

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34. Dr. G is a Mason obviously. Shriners used to have a 32° Scottish Rite requirement. They dropped that in 2000. People join to have fun and follow their Freemason philosophy, which is absolutely humanist and enlightened. The Shriner oath is obviously merely paying homage to the mystical esoteric aspects of Islam. That is all part of the degree process, simply learning in a fraternal setting. In Israel Christians, Jews, and Muslims can and do pray under a single roof to their respective gods. Where else does this happen? Not in your 20th century mega churches with concepts of a personalized Jesus. Open up to other’s ideas and stop thinking you have absolute truth. You merely have faith at best. Peace to all.

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35. I should have prefaced that comment with a: where? A Freemason Lodge of course. The only roof under which the 3 Abrahamic faiths do NOT fight but coexist as equals.

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36. Van Duyn, your argument is faulty because you fail to understand what drives each of the religions you speak of. Muslims only know peace at the end of a sword. Jews predicate their belief system on a legalistic system of dos and donts that nobody can ever live up to. Only true biblical Christianity points to the complete and totally finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. With Christianity, we look to a Risen Lord who alone can offer salvation and freedom from the depravity that surrounds every person who has ever lived. Freemasonry is definitely humanistic, but it is not enlightened but keeps those who are in it in utter darkness and bound to the philosophies of the evil one, namely, Lucifer himself.

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37. Lodges have open bibles and most of their members are protestants. The symbols can be misconstrued and Albert Pike misquoted, but nothing in Freemasonry crosses swords with the teachings of the synoptic gospels. In fact, but for Freemasons, you might be a Catholic with an infallible Pope as your Earthly proxy to God. You certainly would know nothing of the 1st Amendment without Freemasons. It is a quasi secret society and limits fractious discourse in Lodges for the very reason we are having this discussion: you proclaim the same absolute truth as those that flew planes into buildings. Your value system is a not workable and zealots like you are dividing humankind amid our rare presence in a galaxy of 400,000,000,000 stars, with a likely 40,000,000,000 earth like planets in a universe of 400,000,000,000 similar galaxies. We are all equals and should not divide along sectarian lines. We are too rare a species for such nonsense. A grand designer could communicate better than disputed books written in the bronze age before science. Again: judge not……..

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38. Said as Van Duyn actually judges based on his own assumptions. Nicely done. An open Bible means nothing. It is only when a person is faced with the reality of who Jesus Christ truly is that the Words of Scripture will make any difference to an individual.

    So, if you are still reading, let me ask you a question. Do you believe there are any absolutes in the world today?

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39. @Van Duyn ” A grand designer could communicate better than disputed books written in the bronze age before science. Again: judge not……..”

    The grand designer (the God of Israel and father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has communicated clear enough through the testimony of creation and your own conscience. Namely that you are guilty of sin, sentenced to death (both physical and spiritual) and are without excuse. Each time you sin you are treasuring up wrath for yourself on the day of God’s wrath. You are not enlightened but have a darkened mind, a place where you can hide in lies. There is one escape and that is in Jesus Christ. He will give you a new mind and new heart and save you from the just wrath of God that is to come. Repent and believe the Gospel.

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40. I have scoured the Earth for them: here is the best of it 2+2=4.

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41. So to clarify further, Van Duyn, are there not any absolutes prohibiting any of the following?

    Murder
    Rape
    Abortion
    Stealing

    Just to name a small handful.

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42. Abortion, murder, rape (the harder of the bunch) and stealing are NO T absolutes: My 12 daughter is raped by her Uncle an abortion is a moral option. Justifiable homicide, a man designed law to embody absolutes and their folly (ie I’m car jacked and take self defense), and stealing: I become aware of an offshore legal tax loophole and reduce my taxable income by xxxx, stealing no but what about option trading: If I made $1.00, somebody lost it, or “stealing” medicine from corrupt govt. authorities who have sequestered it at the airport in Lima, to heal the sick. Recklessness is not a sin for these reasons: absolutes do not exist vis-a-viv the conduct of men. Life is grey. Religion might convince you of absolutes but facts prevent their orderly application. I love that you are thinking about this though.

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43. Here is an absolute: you absolutely do not require them. Or need them to exist. Men existed long before ancient texts described morality. It’s called natural law (see John Locke). We knew when something is fundamentally wrong because of evolution, not ancient texts. Someday, you may understand your fellows are really your fellows and they do not need thou shall not laws, to restrain them. They restrain themselves because men are not fundamentally bad. When you realize this, you will view humanity in a new light. You cannot love a stranger you believe is destined to hell because they grew up under different geographic and social inputs. They are hell bound in your narrow theology. And that it why I stepped into an original discussion about Shriners.

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44. I am afraid you are very wrong, Van Duyn. Absolutes do exist and without them, you would live in mortal fear for you and your family of ever leaving your house. Animals have no conscience to tell them what is wrong like humans do. This is not a product of evolution and could not be. If you have ever visited a war zone or been involved in combat, you would know without a doubt that man left to himself with no restraints will not restrain himself. Evil is a progression that knows no bounds. Take any society in the world and you will always find certain levels of morality that have been put in place.

    As for being hellbound, the Bible makes it clear that all who reject Christ are destined to be separated from Him for all of eternity. People only reject this good news because their very soul, heart, and mind detest all that God truly stands for.

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45. Abortion is never a right. To punish the girl again and the living baby in her womb for the sins of the father can never be justified. Even the Bible allows for cases of self-defense, but never for murder.

    So what makes these things wrong? Morals do not evolve and mankind does not get better and better.

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46. Dear Comrade Van Duyn:
    I am offended that you (or anyone else for that matter) would have the audacity to suggest that 2+2=4. Nobody has a right to impose such an archaic absolute upon anyone else. Do you have any idea what harm that does to someone’s self-esteem? If I believe that 2+2=5, how dare you say I am wrong? I am curious, by what authority do you enact yourself superior to me in the area of your narrow-minded mathematics?

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47. @Van Duyn

    “They restrain themselves because men are not fundamentally bad. When you realize this, you will view humanity in a new light. You cannot love a stranger you believe is destined to hell because they grew up under different geographic and social inputs. They are hell bound in your narrow theology. And that it why I stepped into an original discussion about Shriners.”

    Nobody is destined to hell because of geographic and social inputs. They are destined to hell for sinning with knowledge (the greek word conscience = with knowledge) against the majesty of God their creator and their neighbor whom they should have loved as themselves.

    @Van Duyn

    “Abortion, murder, rape (the harder of the bunch) and stealing are NO T absolutes”

    So your friend tells you he just helped an old lady pay for groceries at the store because she is a poor widow who has been going without. Your other friend tells you he just raped and killed a young girl because it excited him. You respond “good for both of you – that is so cool bro’s”

    Give me a break – how far will you take your lies to hide in darkness? Jesus Christ can shine a light through you and make you a new person. You will no longer be a depraved liar who has to make up absurd things to justify yourself. Jesus who was without sin can justify you. Humble yourself before God, admit your depravity, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. – 2 Cor 5:21

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48. It’s a pity you believe but for biblical texts we would conduct ourselves as savage beasts. It’s very reflective of how low you view humanity. There are actually good people called humanists out there. They want to embetter our species and so not for heavenly rewards, but they respect the sacrosanct nature of human life. I’m not guided by biblical principals and I assure you, your in no danger. Atheists don’t fly planes into buildings or sever heads of the infidels. Theists do these thing. 8m not depraved by virtual of humanity. That’s how religion instills shame and guilt while offering an out for you, yet your only sin is birth and being human. In fact, if aborted fetuses goto heaven, we are going them a favor. Virgin births on Dec 25 who came to save the world is a VERY old 5000bc concept. Question: if God is omnipotent and omnipresence: why not play out the universe in 1 second. The outcome is already known. Why waste the time. Why put a tree of knowledge in the garden. Why can god almighty only have 1 son. He can create a universe but just 1 son. That makes no sense. Your absolutist are absurd but you know this. I need no faith 2+2=4. Your entire life is masked in known repackaged as “faith”. I cannot believe the absurd.

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49. Scientific method. 2+2=4 1:10^99999999999999999999e. That’s reliable fact. The counterpart would be offending if I told you the Earth is not flat nor or its the sun. Absolute truth exist out there and if we are lucky we will figure out how our universe came into being and the question that plagues my mind and ruins much of it: why, how, and our we one many many universes or dimensions will cease to plague our freakishly intelligent mammal species which was probably a biological anomaly and not necessary a great thing for our long term existence. In 100 trillion years the universe will die from “hear death”. I’d like to think the big crunch or multiverse theories are true because a universe with a starting date is unexplainable to me. It’s the very best argument theists have, it’s a great one, I cannot defeat it but nor can they explain god’s eternal existence. I think God might be the eternal laws of physics and they have always existed. If God always existed so can these laws that spark creation. Big bangs may be common place. I don’t know but I have to find natural solutions to these problems. The supernatural is not provable in my mind. If it were: I would be the most devoted of the theists assuming I could pick the right religion. Religion is great for many as it fills this void of creation. For nontheists it’s a plague and life is precious but very temporal and easy to become frustrated. Make sense?

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50. @Van Duyn “Atheists don’t fly planes into buildings or sever heads of the infidels. Theists do these thing.”

    Jim:
    I would like to expose each lie/deception you have put forth for the good of others if not yourself. First, with the above comment… Those who are born again do not fly planes into buildings, they turn the other cheek and love their neighbors as themselves. A born again follower of Jesus can no more do that a vegetarian eat meat. Many who claim to be christians ( in the antichrist catholic and her harlot run away daughters) do these things just as Jesus told us they would. Don’t let hypocrites stand between you and God. Also, the amount of killing performed by secular atheists / communists far outweighs even that by antichrist religious people anyway.

    @Van Duyn “That’s how religion instills shame and guilt while offering an out for you, yet your only sin is birth and being human.”

    Jim:
    No, your sin is with knowledge that it is wrong. You have done things you personally with your conscience know are morally wrong. Your sins are in the tens of thousands if not millions and they are without excuse.

    @Van Duyn “In fact, if aborted fetuses goto heaven, we are going them a favor.”

    Strawman, red herring, etc, etc.

    @Van Duyn “Virgin births on Dec 25 who came to save the world is a VERY old 5000bc concept.”

    Jim:
    Jesus was not born on 25th december, the antichrist just mixed those pagan traditions (like christ-mass and easter) into the harlot church system of Rome. Because the professing church is in the exact state Jesus said it would be before he returned they go along with empty traditions like this.

    @Van Duyn “Question: if God is omnipotent and omnipresence: why not play out the universe in 1 second. ”

    Jim:
    Maybe he should have consulted you first, since you are so wise and powerful… oh, wait, you can’t even take your next breath apart from Him mercifully extending you time for repentance. Don’t sin away the day of grace friend. You are guilty of many great sins and more so for rejecting mercy.

    @Van Duyn “I need no faith 2+2=4”

    Here is some more math for you: Loves sin + hates God + darkened mind = Van Duyn

    -Jim

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51. ” A born again follower of Jesus can no more do that a vegetarian eat meat. ”

    Should read ” A born again follower of Jesus can no more do that than a vegetarian does eat meat. “

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52. We must keep in mind the wisdom of Prov. 26: 4-5 when “trolls” would divert the topic thread from evil oaths to anything else. Answer a fool as his folly deserves lest he become wise in his own eyes. So far the defenders have tip toed through this minefield artfully. I am trying to learn to only boldly defend the faith when I am not wasting time with a fool. Yet the rebuttals do serve to educate everyone else who reads this.
    The topic was to expose that Masonic and Shriner oaths are incompatible with Biblical Christianity. Trolls use the Red Herring tactic to divert from the topic at hand. Answering a troll according to his folly ( is dangerous ) lest you be like him.

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53. Having read all the blogs posted here, I find that the ones who argue the most are the ones who deny the true one and only living God. If Jesus never came to die for our sins and grant us eternal salvation with His shed blood, the we as christians have been duped into something more false and hideous than satan himself. The fact of the matter is still very clear and plain. Those who deny Christ are wanting to sin because they feel it is pleasure to do it without consequenses. We all sin, yes, but the believer in Christ is one who feels guilt and remorse and knows to repent. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. How can one believe that rape is okay if done in the name of allah? Sickening. If you try and get a true follower of Christ to deny Him, that person would either die for Christ, or fight the oppressor. I would fight first myself. There is such a thing called the unpardonable sin. Jesus rules, not anarchy. Those who deny Christ will find out at the Great White Throne Judgement that they made the wrong choice. Too bad that has to happen. No matter what the unbeliever says, the bible comes back with the truth every time. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob does not promise anywhere 72 virgins for carrying out cold blooded murder. A suicide bomber would more than likely get a big surprise after the bomb goes off that blows him and other people apart. That is a shame that they do that. Better to curse with love than with hate. There is nothing wrong with righteous anger. Thats biblical. It would be better to see more non believers come to Christ than to have them lost forever. PEACE AND LOVE EVERYONE.

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