28 thoughts on “Who’s pastoring the youth pastors?”

1. So as opposed to following Paul’s admonition to be all things to reach all men, you are advocating us to use archaic speech and say “the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true?”
   While it may be unwise, foolish or even sinful to immerse oneself in the world to reach the world, that isn’t really the point that you seem to be making.
   You seem to be judging
   1. The concept of a youth pastor
   2. A young leader who does not yet have kids.
   3. The assumption that all young leaders are MTV addicts.

   I’ll bet that the author of these tools never imagined that this would be used apart from the gospel but merely as a useful tool to reaching others with the gospel.

   I work with Buddhists. I cannot talk to them about God until they even know what “a God” is.

   Youth today need their own translations. We cannot assume that they have the same Christian cultural foundation that us older people grew up with.

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2. Sean, do you think it’s wrong to challenge the concept of having a “youth” pastor?

   Is it possible to validate such a position from the bible? If not by direct command, then by example?

   Is the function of the church assembly to exhort and edify the body, or is it to draw in young unbelievers and entertain them?

   Is evangelism of youth a “position” the body pays someone else to perform, or is it the responsibility of each and every believer?

   I’m also curious to know where you draw the line in your understanding of Paul becoming all things to all men? What do you think he was referring to?

   The reason we don’t need to “relate” to youth to share the gospel is because regardless of age, of nationality, of the time we live in, ALL humanity is joined by one common thread – sin, and the need for a saviour.

   Of course, many will reject the message, and will reject God. That also will never change (the way is narrow and few find it).

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3. “Dad, can we go play in the youth building?” Billy (aged 12) asked his father, during a break between speakers.

   “I’m sorry, son,” said Billy’s father. “We’re here to strengthen our faith in the Lord, and to learn from God’s Word.”

   “But, dad, we’ve been here for hours. We’ve sang, we’ve prayed, we’ve heard preaching. I’m bored with this conference.”

   “Well, let me ask you something,” Billy’s father said. “Are you a ‘Christian?’”

   “Yes.”

   “Who are Christians supposed to act like?”

   Billy thought for a moment. “Christ…Jesus.”

   “That’s right, son. Now, I want you to read Luke Chapter 2, and tell me what Jesus was interested in doing at age 12.”

   Does this exchange between a father and son sound familiar to us today? It probably doesn’t, but it should. If we profess Christ, then His life must be our example for Christian living. “Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day’s journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. (Luke 2:41-46)

   Jesus Christ, approaching what this world calls His “teen years,” was not interested in vain amusements, dabbling in youthful sin, or filthy entertainment. They did not have Guitar Hero for XBox in His day, but if they had, you can believe He wouldn’t have played it in the synagogue.

   Our Lord’s affections were set on sitting in the house of God, among the elders of the church, listening to the Word of His Father.

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4. As a Youth Leader at the church I attend, I understand the delicate balance of engaging, interacting and teaching young people. Even though the position of a Youth Pastor isn’t mentioned or advocated in the Bible I think it can serve a good purpose. (I also have listened to the message by Dr. V. Baucham and I have passed it to other Youth Leaders in the church I attend).

   Many of my colleagues feel like we should “have” the youth more often because many aren’t paying attention in the Main Services because they seem bored or don’t understand the teaching. To which I tell tham that families should worship together (which means sit together) and we shouldn’t under-estimate the intelligence of young people. I ask the question: Do we pull our children out of school just because they are bored or don’t understand the subject….of course not. And to add to that, my Pastor feels like teachers should be available to CONSISTENTLY hear the word of God themselves so we can be fed, encouraged, sometimes rebuked and reprove and grow spiritually.

   On the other hand I understand the purpose of young people learning together and being able to see other young Christians that may encourage them to seek God rather than to be ashamed as they realize they aren’t alone. But I’m OPPOSED to any noticn that Church Youth functions should be a baby-sitting ministry, with the goal of dumbing down our Lord and partying them straight to hell. At our church I have made it a clear and distinct plan to teach our youth that they are responsible for their own: Salvation, relationship with good, behavior, lifestyle, decisions, consequences and etc. The Biblical standard is paramount, not what mom or dad told them, not what the school teahcer told them or whatever they and their friends believe. And often times our youth tell us about how they had to defend Christianity to a non-believing school teacher. Or they raise questions about how the school is saying one thing but the Bible is completely opposite. So while some may feel like: Let’s get the youth together and have a Holy Ghost Good Time, the world is hitting them with questions they are ill-equipped to answer.

   I’ll end it hear because I can go on and on and on……

   – Michael Pharr

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5. Personally I hate dumbed down seeker-services and watering down the gospel but I believe that there is a place for a “Youth Leader.”
   There is no place in scriptures for a “Pastor” but only “elder” and “deacon” but I believe that a pastor is still a good thing. The word Trinity is never mentioned but I believe in the trinity. I believe that Timothy was exhorted for not letting people look down on him for his age and inexperience. Samuel, Gideon, David, Daniel are other Godly men who got their start early in life. They were not lesser men during their youth or singleness. The best leaders are those who have never rebelled in life. Find a young man like that and let him loose on your youth and you will find that the holiness of your children put even you to shame.

   When I was a boy I was deeply impacted by my youth leaders and as a result I am now a missionary.
   Throughout my life my best evangelistic efforts have taken place, not in a structured bible study class (practically never) but out with people in the real world; on soccer fields and over dinner tables. Giving people “pat answers” to tough questions is pointless. We need to be real and be Jesus to others. Jesus was always full of surprises. When he was supposed to be in synagogue he was out “cavorting with the sinners.” He didn’t hide from the world. Jesus was in-it and not of-it.

   We need young leaders who are passionate about Jesus, who do not succumb to modern cultural values but understand that cultural framework so that the have all the tools necessary to reach out to the youth. Sometimes reaching the youth may mean to get their attention by entertaining them. Perhaps the disreputable way that Jesus did by telling such uncouth parables. Sometimes Jesus made his parables vicious against the establishment. Sometimes he made the way to heaven seem easy to the poor. Sometimes he made the way seem unattainable to the rich. Jesus had many ways to reach people where they were at. Jesus never was and never Is boring. The way to heaven is truly narrow but why should we take it upon ourselves to make the way even narrower. Jesus is the most exciting God-person to ever live. We shouldn’t make people think otherwise.

   It is hard to speculate about how Jesus would have behaved at the age of 12 but I believe that he would not have secluded himself from his culture. I think he would have found ways to interact with his peers in ways that would draw them to God, even if that meant that he could discourse with them about whatever was popular in that day. Xbox is not evil, it is how and when it is used and what games are chosen. A modern evangelist could use knowledge of this for reaching out to others.

   Young people don’t need guilt trips about their inadequacies (they are already aware of those), they need encouragement about their strengths. When you see a young person evangelizing or practicing a gift or fruit of the spirit tell them how proud you are of them. I’m sure that’s what a lot of those Youth Pastors are doing.

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6. The Lord has commanded parents and church elders to train up boys and young men to be what the Lord wants them to be when they reach true manhood. God anointed David, the son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, king of Israel when he was still in his teen years.

   By looking at what kind of boy David was, we can get a good idea of what kind of young men we should be training boys to be. “Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him.” (I Samuel 16:18)

   The phrase “cunning in playing,” means that David had taken time to develop and hone the skills with which God had gifted him. We must encourage boys to commit themselves to practicing and exercising their God-given talents.

   The phrase “a mighty valiant man” means that David was courageous in dangerous situations. We must not shelter our boys from situations where their courage will be tested.

   The phrase “a man of war” refers to David’s willingness to stand and fight for what was right. We must impress upon our boys that there are things that are worth fighting for, and Christian men are to be meek, but never cowardly.

   The phrase “prudent in matters,” means that David exercised wisdom. He did not behave foolishly or invite criticism by behaving childishly. He behaved appropriately for his age.

   The phrase “a comely person,” refers largely to David’s physical appearance. He was thought to be handsome. We certainly can not train boys in their physical characteristics. God determines this through genetics and His Own providence. But we can certainly train boys to dress appropriately and groom themselves properly.

   Conspicuously absent from the description of David in his teen years are any indications that he was involved in foolish vanities. David, if alive today, would not be involved in hanging out at the mall, or text messaging silly word-plays. He would not inappropriately play-wrestle with girls or young ladies. He would have little time for shuffling his iPod, playing laser tag, or shopping for spinning hubcaps. He would not over-pay for ripped-up, ill-fitting clothes, so he could slouch around with uncombed and unwashed hair, trying desperately to look “cool.”

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7. My experience as a lay youth worker was that often parents insist that the church provide all of the “fun” youth activities. I would disagree with Brother Voddie in his point that youth workers have told parents “leave kids to us experts”. My experience was of parents ABDICATING their God appointed roles in the spiritual instruction of their offspring. They just couldn’t be bothered. The youth pastor and youth workers were there to provide “child care” for the big kids so the parents wouldn’t have to be bothered and go on with their selfish pursuits. I think there are lots of godly youth guys that have a passion to reach young people. Be sure to go after the senior pastors that have avoided pounding Deuteronomy 6 with the parents.

   Hab

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8. Find a young man like that and let him loose on your youth and you will find that the holiness of your children put even you to shame.

   That’s a remarkably immature, sweeping generalization and precisely why I believe the position of a “youth pastor” is an abomination.

   The position of youth pastor is glorified to children (rather as you have just done) and his exalted state is what is going to make children more spiritual and holy than their parents? No thank you Mr Sanborn.

   The position often works much like the position of a father in a divorced family who has the kids for weekends. Kind of like Santa, if you will. He has them a short time, flatters them (you can call it “encouragement” if you like 😉 ) and he has no need to ask them to get up and make their bed everyday, to clean their room, to show love to younger siblings, respect to extended family members they may be bored with, etc. In short, has an unrealistic, fairly tale relationship where the YP is being paid to be nice to them and entertain them.

   He makes them think all their noise and posturing is somehow making them more effective Christians than their parents, and ultimately sends them off to fulfill his agenda (growing the youth group, which validates his pay check/glory status.)

   Have you ever noticed how a child in a youth group, when asked to do something by the YP, considers it “ministry” and “an honour to serve”, but when asked to do something by his parents, feels in is a burden on his time and an encroachment on his social calender?

   Which is interesting considering the Bible teaches us to honour and obey our parents, but “youth pastors” are conspicuous by their absence.

   You mention that there are elders and deacons, but no pastors. I would put it to you that if you care to look, you will find that pastor is synonymous with elder and bishop. To create a division in the body by having a pastor that is specifically for one section of the body does nothing to bring unity to the body, or maturity to the youth, and is contrary to scripture.

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9. Beyondbluestockings wrote exactly what I was going to write! Being the child of divorce, I know how easy it is for the one who is only around a little bit to be glorified.

   The very few youth leaders who really try to teach the youth according to Scripture get no respect because they don’t have hundreds of kids flocking to them. The “pizza, bowling and lock-in youth leaders” get the all the encouragement because they look so effective.

   A youth leader needs to turn the youth’s heart to their parents and the parent’s heart to the youth.

   Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. KJV

   I posted a quote from Voddie Baucham’s book Family Driven Faith about the youth-leader-as-savior concept.

   Berean Wife

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10. Dear Berean Wife:

    I have Pastor Baucham’s book on my nightstand next to my bed. I am planning on starting it this week.

    Dear BeyondBlueStockings, Minsitry Addict, Micael Pharr, Habakkuk:

    Thank you all for your comments. You all in some form or another can see the problems with “youth ministry” today. When “all things to all people” is ripped from its greater Scriptural context, the one misusing the quote opens a Pandora’s Box. Where does it stop?

    How about:
    Teen girls singing spice girls on the church stage
    The youth performing Michael Jackson’s Thriller in church
    Vomiting in your “testimony”
    A cartoon of injured chickens and evil clowns
    Crass potty humor for the youth that blasphemes God
    
    After all, these are all “relevant” attempts to attract and reach the youth.

    Dear Sean Sanborn:
    I apologize in advance for such a long response, but your two comments warrant it.

    This is only your second post on DefCon and in both cases you object to what’s been posted. The first one was your disagreement with a quote from K.P. Yohannan which I essentially ignored because your disagreement lay at the feet of Mr. Yohannan and not DefCon.

    But you’re back and in this case you have come after me (even wresting Matthew 7:1 from its context to accuse me of the “J” word) for daring to expose the sacred cow of “youth pastors,” “youth leaders,” “youth ministry.” So I will attempt to succinctly address the main points of your two comments.

    So as opposed to following Paul’s admonition to be all things to reach all men, you are advocating us to use archaic speech and say ‘the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true?’

    Is today’s pandering to youth culture and the mixing of the sacred into the profane in the name of being “hip,” and “relevant,” and done under the guise of “reaching out,” truly what the Apostle Paul had in mind when he penned this? Does it align with the rest of Scripture where Paul sought to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified? Does it align with James’ admonition that friendship with the world is enmity toward God?

    And I still don’t know what you meant by “the Bible is true because it says it is true.” I don’t recall that even being mentioned.

    While it may be unwise, foolish or even sinful to immerse oneself in the world to reach the world, that isn’t really the point that you seem to be making.

    You concede the unwise, foolish, and even sinful mixture of sacred and holy to reach the world in one breath, then excuse it in the next. It seems like double mindedness. Is it or is it not sinful to do such a thing?

    And then you suggest that this isn’t the point I was making. It wasn’t? Tell me then, Sean, what was my point?

    You seem to be judging

    Ahh, the old “you’re judging” routine. How worn out but typical. Don’t you have to judge in order to accuse someone else of judging, Sean?

    1. The concept of a youth pastor
    2. A young leader who does not yet have kids.
    3. The assumption that all young leaders are MTV addicts.
    
    1. The concept of a “youth pastor” is completely void in Scripture because the parents are responsible for the task of bringing up a child, not because the apostles and prophets weren’t hip enough to include it in their writings.

    2. How can a 20-something cool dude who has never raised kids of his own have enough maturity and understanding to train up teens in the ways of the Lord? There may be some out there, but that would certainly be the exception and not the norm.

    3. No, Sean, you have assumed that I assumed that “ALL” of the “youth leaders” are MTV addicts. Your prejudice against anyone who questions “youth ministry” has clouded your ability to look objectively at what I said without adding to it what you think I said. When I was younger my “youth pastors” weren’t MTV addicts, they were Beatles addicts. And needless to say, that whole adventure in “youth ministry” failed miserably . . . and I was one of its victims.

    I’ll bet that the author of these tools never imagined that this would be used apart from the gospel but merely as a useful tool to reaching others with the gospel.
    
    I think you should examine Youth Specialties a little closer before assuming that all is right. See here, here, here.

    Youth today need their own translations. We cannot assume that they have the same Christian cultural foundation that us older people grew up with.

    No, youth today need the Gospel, not the seeker-friendly, purpose-driven, non-offensive, entertainment-driven, candy-coated, feel-good, mush that passes as “youth ministry.” How did Christianity survive all these years without “youth groups,” “lock-ins,” “field-trips,” and the “relevant pragmatism” so prominent today?

    Personally I hate dumbed down seeker-services and watering down the gospel but I believe that there is a place for a “Youth Leader.”

    Again you say one thing, and then champion the efforts of its antitheses.

    The word Trinity is never mentioned but I believe in the trinity.

    Ohh, but the doctrine of the Trinity is present throughout the Scriptures; Old and New Testaments. “Youth ministry,” “youth pastor,” and “youth leader” is not only not found in the Bible, neither is the concept or idea.

    I believe that Timothy was exhorted for not letting people look down on him for his age and inexperience. Samuel, Gideon, David, Daniel are other Godly men who got their start early in life. They were not lesser men during their youth or singleness.

    Careful, you’re mixing apples and oranges here. My contention was with “youth ministries” not with the youth themselves. The kids are just the victims of grown men acting like juveniles (known as Rejuveniles) in their convoluted attempts to pander to them to somehow make Jesus seem “cool” in their eyes so they’ll “ask Him into their heart.”

    All the examples you cited from Scripture are fine examples of mature, godly youths in the Lord, but in their culture youth grew up much faster in the ways of life and the Lord. In our modern culture the “youth leader” is the one acting like he’s 17 again. It’s kind of backwards.

    The best leaders are those who have never rebelled in life.
    
    Really? Is this a fact? Sounds like a judgment against those who were saved later in life. Those who have been forgiven much love much.

    Find a young man like that and let him loose on your youth and you will find that the holiness of your children put even you to shame.

    Really? Is this a fact? This too sounds like a judgment against those who were saved later in life.

    When I was a boy I was deeply impacted by my youth leaders and as a result I am now a missionary.

    I and many others have been impacted by “youth leaders” too. Not all of us have turned out for the best.

    Throughout my life my best evangelistic efforts have taken place, not in a structured bible study class (practically never) but out with people in the real world; on soccer fields and over dinner tables.

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for IT is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes . . . (Romans 1:16)

    Giving people “pat answers” to tough questions is pointless.

    No one said anything about “pat answers” (straw man). No argument from me on this one.

    We need to be real and be Jesus to others. Jesus was always full of surprises.

    Great, Sean, surprise the youth with something really radical: Exchange pizza and bowling night for a systematic teaching of the Scriptures. Quit perpetuating the idea (I’m speaking in general terms here) that kids are too dumb to learn the deeper truths of God and instead must be entertained 24/7.

    When he was supposed to be in synagogue he was out “cavorting with the sinners.” He didn’t hide from the world. Jesus was in-it and not of-it.

    Again, another straw man erected and knocked down . . . no one said anything about hiding from the world. In fact, I got railroaded out of my last church because I was arguing that the members were too introvert and self-absorbed within their cliques and no one was interested in going into the highways and byways to reach the lost. Now I’m being accused (directly or indirectly) by you of the very opposite.

    We need young leaders who are passionate about Jesus, who do not succumb to modern cultural values but understand that cultural framework so that the have all the tools necessary to reach out to the youth.

    Again, you say one thing and then you turn around and defend its opposite. This is what a big part of the post was about . . . the current trend in “youth ministry” which says “be like the world to reach the world.” These “youth leaders” (not all, but the one’s the shoe fits) have succumbed to modern cultural values.

    When one swims in the cesspool in order to better understand the filth, one comes out covered in the filth. You don’t need to become part of the culture to reach the youth. Your philosophy smacks of Arminianism and market-driven church practices. The Bible teaches that none come to Jesus unless granted by the Father. It’s just our job to preach the Gospel. All the pool parties and pizza nights aren’t going to convert a soul.

    Sometimes reaching the youth may mean to get their attention by entertaining them.
    
    Really? Can you give me one example or precedent of this in all of Scripture? Just one will suffice.

    Perhaps the disreputable way that Jesus did by telling such uncouth parables.

    Are you really trying to equate the parables of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to the use of entertainment in modern day “youth ministry”?

    The way to heaven is truly narrow but why should we take it upon ourselves to make the way even narrower.

    Whoa, this is a heavy charge to bring forth. To suggest that by not entertaining the youth we could contribute to them losing their souls because entertainment is the vehicle by which the narrow path remains as wide as it is, is just plain silly. Again, your argument smacks of Arminianism and is against Jesus’ teaching that only those whom the Father grants can come to Him.

    It is hard to speculate about how Jesus would have behaved at the age of 12 but I believe that he would not have secluded himself from his culture.

    Really? We have evidence in the Scriptures of how He behaved and one of the commentors above already touched on that. And no one said he secluded himself from the culture around Him. But He did not mix the things of Heaven with the things of the world. Another straw man.

    Young people don’t need guilt trips about their inadequacies (they are already aware of those), they need encouragement about their strengths.

    Oh, the straw men are reproducing at a rate faster than I can knock them down. Who said anything about giving kids guilt trips?

    And where is self-esteem an attribute of a godly man, woman, girl or boy? The only “esteem” we are to have is an esteem for one another above ourselves (Philippians 2:3).

    You know, Sean, your two comments are very revealing. You waxed eloquent over your objections to this post (and me), but never, (not even once), did you address the original post. You seem to have no problem whatsoever that out of 100 tips and ideas Youth Specialties couldn’t even mention such Christian essentials as God, Jesus, Bible, sin, salvation, justification, sanctification, etc.

    Your avoidance of this while attacking me is very telling. I hope that you will reconsider your unequivocal opposition to me and actually examine what this post has brought up.

    Respectfully,
    – The Pilgrim

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11. The shamefully corrupt spiritual harlot known as Youth Specialties birthed forth the counter-Reformation abomination known as the emergent/emerging church movement replete with its occult inspired practices of contemplative prayer/prayer centering, eastern mysticism, new age spiritualism, and Roman Catholic monasticism.

    Its “specialties” are rank heresy and gross apostasy.

    In Christ,
    CD

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12. I can see why you would react harshly if you are bitter about negative experiences you have had with youth programs. And perhaps I am overly zealous because of my positive experiences.
    The question at hand is can a Youth Leader be a Biblical concept.

    While I think of a response to your well thought reply let me ask another question.

    Does the Bible approve of Internet evangelism, web evangelists, or Christian software. To me it falls into the same category as the previous discussion.
    You might say bitterly that computers are used for pornography, for foolish games, for evil discussion and many other evils. Could it therefore be concluded that computers and all those who use them are practicing an abomination because the Bible makes no reference to this technology?
    Oh, but computers didn’t exist back then.
    Ok, then how about this.
    Orphans and drug addicts existed in ancient days and yet there is no reference to orphanages or rehab programs in the Bible. Even though we are exhorted to care for such as these. And yes, I do understand that the entire community worked as a whole to meet peoples needs without putting a label on their efforts.

    Let me suggest that each of us should ask God how best we can serve him. If you feel that you are led to start a Biblestudy, an orphanage, a woman’s ministry, an AIDS ministry, a youth group, a pastors retreat, or whatever, then why should we anyone tell that person that there is no room in the Kingdom of God for serving their Master through their particular abilities. God has made us all different with different abilities and different ways to reflect Gods love to others.

    I don’t disagree that many Youth Pastors are doing much harm, but please don’t throw the youth out with the bathwater. We need followers of Jesus to tell others at whatever ability they have to do it.
    Of course large youth groups are usually ‘meet/meat markets” The large ones typically have been. But there are Godly men out there assisting young people to become loving servants at home to their parents and siblings. These men of God need your support not disdain.

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13. Dear Sean Sanborn,

    You said:

    I can see why you would react harshly if you are bitter about negative experiences you have had with youth programs.

    Thanks for incorrectly judging my motivations and erroneously misrepresenting me . . . yet again.

    I can assure you that I am not bitter, nor did my experience with a youth group some 15 years ago have anything to do with this post. I was merely drawing on an experience to further my argument, not to have you try to analyze me like I’m sitting on Dr. Phil’s couch.

    Your attempt to dismiss my (lengthy) comment by claiming I’m bitter over something that I’m not is very clever (politicians love using this tactic as well as the cults) but it is also very disingenuous. I’m disappointed in you, but not surprised.

    Then you said:

    Does the Bible approve of Internet evangelism, web evangelists, or Christian software. To me it falls into the same category as the previous discussion.
    You might say bitterly that computers are used for pornography, for foolish games, for evil discussion and many other evils.

    Ah, the age old non-sequitur couched in a vain attempt to avoid the original subject. A classic diversionary tactic.

    I will only follow you as far down this rabbit trail you’ve tried to forge as this:
    The whole concept of a “youth minister” usurps the authority of parents and undermines the plans God has for the family and the local church. The “need” for a youth pastor nowadays is as relevant as the need for a “gigolo” for widows.

    I don’t disagree that many Youth Pastors are doing much harm, but please don’t throw the youth out with the bathwater.

    Again, no one ever said anything about throwing out the youth (so many strawmen, so little time).

    But there are Godly men out there assisting young people to become loving servants at home to their parents and siblings. These men of God need your support not disdain.

    Won’t argue this point at all. Everyone in the church should be “assisting” young people. But the whole point of this post is not in objection to that, it’s in objection to modern day “youth ministry.” If the shoe fits, then wear it and quit trying to put the shoe on other issues that were not part of the original post.

    Need I remind you that you have still failed to address the total lack of anything “Biblical” or even “Christian” in Youth Specialties’ 100 tips and ideas? This was the whole point of the original post.

    Do you realize that by hollering about your perceived spider in the corner of the room while ignoring the elephant in the room is causing you to losing credibility?

    I urge you that if you wish to continue this discussion that you 1). Cease with the attempts at character assassination; 2). Get back to the topic at hand and avoid adding more to this already mountainous heap you have still failed to address.

    Sincerely,
    – The Pilgrim

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14. The world has developed a wonderful category for young people – wonderful, that is, from the world’s point of view. This category is called: The Teenage Years. Teenagers – especially in America – are encouraged to play around with all the privileges of adulthood while being exempt from all but a very few of the responsibilities.

    Since this is a worldly concept, we would expect to see something different in the Church, wouldn’t we? Here is how the Bible says that adults should minister to young people in church: “That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.” (Titus 2:2-6)

    The world says that teenaged children must be entertained or they will find church boring and irrelevant. God says that they are to be taught and exhorted from His Word, and that the power of the Gospel (not pizza parties, rock concerts, or games) will transform them. Children are not to be separated out of a church fellowship. They are to be kept among the aged men and women of the church, so that they can be prepared for mature Christian adulthood, not a worldly prolonged-adolescence.

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15. Pingback: ‘Forget the pizza parties,’ Teens tell churches « Acidri's Blog®

16. “That’s right, son. Now, I want you to read Luke Chapter 2, and tell me what Jesus was interested in doing at age 12.”
    Brilliant! I put that one on my blog. Nice one MA! In times past, the youth AND children remained in the services and took in the same sermon, music and all that their parents did. It wasn’t until someone had the brainstorm to give someone else the “problem” and free up the parents to “worship” God. Do you really think God is at all happy with those who pass their precious children off on someone else? I pray daily to have that opportunity again to have my dear children by my side. It’s a joy and an honour to raise children and not ship them off to youth groups and nurseries. There should be no such thing as youth groups. If the Gospel preached from the pulpit is good enough for the parents, then it’s good enough for the children.

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17. I see a whole lot of religious and very little relationship in your blog post. It is both judgmental and demeaning of youth ministry. If you cannot relate to current youth culture, take topics they are interested in, and then take them back to the Bible to instruct them in truth, you are not an effective youth minister. I agree with the post talking about keeping a delicate balance. The original poster of this blog sounds very legalistic….Jesus came to abolish that type of attitude and action. God has always been about relationship and love. Youth Specialties tries to take us – 30 to 40-something year old balding, pot-bellied youth pastors- and remind us to be culturally relevant while being completely relational and to reach the kids where they are at in their walk (or lack thereof) with God. You can’t do that with legalism or the KJV.

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18. Mark Martin:

    I see that you were too busy making broad judgments of us and calling us names to read our Rules of Engagement, so I’ll direct you there by this link.

    Keep our Rules of Engagement in mind next time you wish to strike a keystroke in the comments section of DefCon.

    In the meantime, us “30 to 40-something year old balding, pot-bellied, religious, legalists” will keep defending the faith from those who think marrying the godless culture with that of the pure and holy gospel is acceptable, and we’ll continue to resist mixing the things of this world with the things of God and instead keep preaching Christ and Him crucified because it’s the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16), not how much we love, cherish, pursue, and mimic the world and all its ways (1 John 2:15-16).

    The gospel: Still relevant to all cultures in all ages to those who recognize the depth of their sin and their need of a Savior.

    – Pilgrim

    P.S. And speaking of sweeping judgments, both of the Scriptures above are linked to the NASB translation . . . my preferred translation of choice.

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19. RevivalandReformation: “I put that one on my blog. Nice one MA!” Thanks, R&R, I was late seeing this.

    M.Martin:

    “Youth Specialties tries to take us – 30 to 40-something year old balding, pot-bellied youth pastors- and remind us to be culturally relevant while being completely relational and to reach the kids where they are at in their walk (or lack thereof) with God. You can’t do that with legalism or the KJV.”

    There’s nothing legalistic about adults and children attending the same preaching, teaching, training, praying, and Bible reading activities in church. It seems to be the Bible pattern. And you’ve got me on the “balding,” but doing sitting ups while clutching my heavy giant-print leather bound KJV to my chest has given me a ripped six-pack, not a pot belly! Seriously, though, I don’t like to argue from pragmatism, but there are many Godly pastors, ministers, and faithful Christians who were “reached” by God as kids through someone preaching or teaching from a KJV Bible. Just sayin’.

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20. What I have personally found in my experience with youth groups and youth leaders, for the most part anyway, is a desire and “need”, if you will to separate themselves from the mainstream adult population. It’s as if they are saying, “Whew, now we can relax and just be ourselves.” Correct me if I am wrong, but there isn’t a Scriptural basis for this. There is one salvation, one Jesus Christ, one conforming to His image. Once a church starts allowing division and separation of generations, it is a sure sign of degradation of the Gospel and Christian morality. Once a kingdom is divided against itself, it will fall, and this goes for a church as well.

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21. “Whew, now we can relax and just be ourselves.” I think you hit the nail on the head, R&R. Most teen-aged children have some type of desire to “express themselves” (although, in reality, that often means mimicking a group of other kids who are often mimicking some celebrity), but God is not so much interested in us expressing ourselves as He is in us expressing His glory and magnifying His Son. Childhood is a great time for teaching that we must decrease and He must increase.

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22. M.A.,

    I think the whole problem is in a nutshell that we have adults who truly are not saved trying their best to make Jesus out to be something cool. Try as they may to convince the youth to turn their backs on all of the attractiveness of the world and follow a boring Jesus, impossible to read Bible and serve a God they can’t see, just won’t work because most of the adults don’t believe the Bible is perfect and complete, they don’t really think Jesus is worth dying for, and they have their doubts over God and all that He is. So where does this leave us? The youth just see through the hypocrisy and go for what they can touch and relate to. If they only knew what it meant to have that relationship with Jesus, that you and I and others have, they would definitely turn their backs on the world’s flash and follow Jesus straight to their deaths with a huge smile on their faces.

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23. Pingback: 'Forget the pizza parties,' Teens tell churches | Twisted Crown of Thorns ®

24. One of the reasons that my parents ended up joining the Mormon church is that they saw whole families attending service, and that really appealed to them. After the one-hour service (“sacrament meeting”), the congregation splits into different groups, organized by gender and age, to learn from lesson plans customized to their age and (presumably) understanding. “Secular” culture was always completely secluded from service, worship, lesson plans, etc, and the youth groups (separated by gender) seemed to be focused about half and half on learning scripture and some Mormon doctrine, and learning how to interact with each other socially.

    The Mormon approach could be summarized as “milk before meat”… children are taught the basics at a level they could understand, and as they grew, they were taught a more detailed understanding, according to (presumably) their level of understanding. My break with Mormonism came when I realized that many of the things I had been taught were white-washed versions of doctrine… but that’s perhaps a different story.

    The disadvantage of the Mormon approach is that if you don’t fit into that little mold (me, ha ha) then you simply don’t belong…

    I would submit for your consideration that once children are in their teenage years, parents are *not* the biggest influence on their lives – their peer group is. Create a social environment for them within the church environment, and you provide an alternative to a purely “secular” peer group.

    In other words, it seems that there are Christian alternatives to every other aspect of the “secular” world (music, fiction, schooling, etc), so why not a peer group for the youth?

    (I’m fascinated by this discussion. As a non-believer, I had no idea there even was a controversy about it!)

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25. Dear awasteofsalt:

    Thank you so much for your comment.

    I’d first like to say sorry for how long it’s taken me to respond.

    Secondly, you said:

    “it seems that there are Christian alternatives to every other aspect of the “secular” world (music, fiction, schooling, etc), so why not a peer group for the youth?”

    
    This is the problem. The Church should not be mimicking the world, its music, its schooling, its dress, its speech, etc. When we do, we are indirectly conveying that the world and its ways are what guides us, not God and His Word.

    In the matter of youth ministry, this is just another case of copying the world and letting the world set the standards for the Church. Godless government education segregates youth and the church has followed suit.

    We should not look to the world for guidance. Youth ministry is a relatively new fad that cannot be supported whatsoever from Scripture. And its results are disastrous. Yet, well-meaning Christians keep trying to make it work, thinking that they have an edge, or are doing it better than all those before them who have failed. Problem is, the very concept is faulty and cannot be expected to produce the results they claim to be striving for.

    Why this train wreck is still practiced in many sincere, well-meaning, Scripturally sound churches just boggles my mind. They go to Scripture on every matter yet when it comes to this, they just let it slide.

    It’s time we stop diving the body of Christ. We have ministries for kids, ministries for youth, ministries for teens, ministries for singles, ministries for marrieds, ministries for homeschoolers, ministries for twenty-somethings, ministries for thirty-somethings, ministries for seniors, ministries for men, ministries for women, ministries for those who like cats, ministries for those who prefer cream cheese over butter on their bagels. When does it stop? Where is the biblical teaching or precedent for all this division going on under the banner of “ministry” in the body of Christ? How are we to be one body when we’re encouraged to keep dividing?

    I do not take issue with an occasional instance in which a matter is handled with a certain group (e.g. teaching men about loving their wives like Christ loved the Church), but these should be the exceptions to the rule, not the norm.

    It is a crying shame that organizations like Mormonism are known (and attractive to outsiders) because of their love of family, yet Christians are not. Something has gone terribly wrong and it seems so very few are willing to take a stand, go against the flow, and fix it.

    You say that you’re fascinated by the discussion, and that you had no idea there was even an issue about this matter, so please allow me to direct you to some resources that may further your intrigue.
    If you get a chance, get your hands on the documentary Divided.
    Also, listen to the following three messages:
    Evaluating Youth Ministry – An Abolitionist’s View by Voddie Baucham.
    The Centrality of the Home by Voddie Baucham.
    Children in Worship by Brian Borgman.
    You can also read this interesting article for more information.

    And finally, may I ask you a question? When you say you’re a non-believer, can you clarify what exactly you mean?

    Thanks.
    Sincerely,
    – Pilgrim

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26. Thank you for the reply, Pilgrim. I am a freethinking atheist. I grew up Mormon, but did eventually leave both that denomination and eventually religious faith as well. I almost didn’t leave a comment in the first place, but thought that my experience might inform the conversation to some degree.

    I’m not sure what I feel about the concept of ‘youth ministry’. As I mentioned before, growing up Mormon, I took it for granted that that’s how it was done – everyone in their own place at their own appointed time, that kind of thing. The Mormon way of doing it is far more striated – kids are divided by gender and by 2 year age blocks! For instance, a 12-13 year old girl would be part of the ‘Beehive’ class in her young women’s group.

    Anyways, I have another observation. For most of the last year I’ve been going to a non-denominational church that many of my friends go to (I actually run their soundboard every other week), and I’ve noticed that there is very little youth participation. The youngest children have their own classes, so they’re split aside, but it seems like the youth actually go to a different church – one of the flashier ‘we have an advertising budget’ churches in the area.

    So… isn’t that the same concept? Some churches seem to appeal to the younger crowd, some to the more sedate crowd (ahem). Well, not seem – some churches directly appeal to a different audience by how they present their message.

    So while the slick advertising and “rock band” worship will appeal to some, it certainly won’t to others… with those “some” being very specifically the younger crowd. How is that, or is that, different from having an in-church ‘youth pastor’? It seems like the parents don’t care – there kids are going to church, even if its not “their” church…

    I have a final thought to leave with you. The way that I learn is different than the way you learn – if I learn better in that more hyped-up (excuse me, ‘energetic’) environment, does it actually do me justice to remove me from that environment and be forced to try and learn in a less-ideal environment (boring old church with the rest of the fuddie-duddies *grin*)?

    In other words, if being in an environment surrounded with your peers, being presented a message in terms and in a style that you can easily understand, helps you comprehend God’s message etc etc…. doesn’t that validate things like the ‘youth group’ ministry, ‘mid30 singles’ ministry, etc?

    Perhaps the underlying question is one of balance – how much you cater to the individual vs addressing the needs of the whole…

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27. Thanks for your comment, awasteofsalt.

    On the surface your argument sounds like it may have merit. After all, this is the reasoning behind the varied “programs” out there today. But I offer that the solution to the problem has become a problem itself.

    Sometime along the way, the visible church stopped preaching Christ and Him crucified for a softer, moralistic type message, while simultaneously liberalism crept into the church and cast doubt upon most of the essentials of the Christian faith. So what we have today are people who simply aren’t interested in church (when in fact, it’s not church but the Holy Spirit coupled with the unadulterated preaching of the gospel that convicts and saves).

    Church leaders are trying to “interest” the “unchurched” to come to church, so they mimic the world and its lust for entertainment to attract people. The problem is, the gospel is not a gimmick. It doesn’t need to be dressed up or infused with a theme (eh hm, VBS) in order to appeal to those whom God has called.

    The preaching of the cross is not boring to those who understand their need for it any more than the guy who is dying of a disease would not consider a lecture on how to stop the disease from killing him would gladly sit and listen. In fact, he’d even be angry if the lecture was accompanied with bells, whistles, rock bands, skits, comedy, and all sorts of silly programs. He’s dying and he wants to know how to stop the disease. He does not have time for games.

    This is where we’re at with the church. Pastors have failed to tell people the true condition of their souls and the inevitable result of their sin, so people don’t comprehend the seriousness of their sin and the great cost that was paid to redeem them. So because so many people fail to see that they are in desperate need of a Savior (not to make their life better or help their marriage), but to absorb the fierce and unrelenting wrath coming upon every child of Adam, and their need for that Savior’s righteousness to be imputed to them, they don’t view “church” as they should. Instead church is just a social club and a place to go on Sunday’s because it’s a family tradition. So because of this people naturally gravitate toward whatever church or program is going to entertain them while they “do their duty.”

    The church in America is in a pitiful state, and youth ministry is not helping one bit; I believe it’s actually causing more harm. I say this not only based on the statistics, but I say this experientially. And besides, you attended LDS youth ministry when you were younger and now you’re an atheist. See, you’re current belief system doesn’t help your argument. :o)

    Sincerely,
    – Pilgrim

    P.S. I’m sure there was a whole lot more to your becoming an atheist, but you get my point. Youth ministry has produced a whole lot of atheists.

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28. Hi Pilgrim! Been a long time since we have communicated. Could not agree more with EVERYTHING you have said. My old blog time2changechurches spoke with the same passion against youth specialties as you have expressed. I pray you are doing well. You are in my prayers.

    Brian Culver

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