What you are about to read is disturbing and shocking, especially if you have children who attend a church youth group. Please be aware that what is detailed below is happening in many churches in America, and may be coming to yours very soon. Prepare to be outraged.
Those churches who rely on their slick marketing schemes to “draw a crowd” have sunk to new lows as of late. This is especially evident in the area of the foreign-to-Scripture concept of the church youth group led by the ever-so-popular (and equally absent from Scripture) youth pastors.
For those who have no idea what kind of shenanigans have been going on in the name of “youth ministry,” here are a few samplings that DefCon’s addressed in the past:
– Whos’ pastoring the youth pastors?
– The problem with youth ministry today.
– A story of injured clowns and evil chickens.
– Another church sanctuary turned into a stage for a worldly dance exhibition.
But these past examples are mild compared to what’s taking place now. Countless churches are going out of their way to pander to the youth culture by means of the basest of juvenile humor (the very humor formed, cultivated, and driven by the world).
Because these so-called churches are constantly chasing after the hem of the garment of their elusive mistress of cultural relevance, they must constantly come up with something new, something more radical, something more shocking, something more like the world in order to attract and keep their “customers.”
But as with all fads, what was hip, cool, and relevant yesterday loses it’s impact tomorrow, so something even more vile, shocking, and wicked (yes, wicked) must take the place of yesterday’s flavor of the month.
To see this spiral into depravity I submit two articles for your consideration. One was written by a Christian journalist for a Christian news source from August 2002, the other was written by a secular journalist for a secular news source in September 2009.
The following is the 2002 article from World Magazine’s Gene Edward Veith:
Stupid Church Tricks
by Gene Edward Veith
Four sets of parents are suing a church in Indiana for what happened at a New Year’s Eve lock-in. A youth leader chewed up a mixture of dog food, sardines, potted meat, sauerkraut, cottage cheese, and salsa, topped off with holiday eggnog. As if this spectacle were not disgusting enough (let the reader beware), he then spit out the mixture into a glass and encouraged the members of the youth group to drink it!
Some of those who did, of course, became sick, whereupon their parents sued the church. According to the Associated Press account, the youth pastor said that the “gross-out” game, called the Human Vegematic, was just for fun and that the church forced no one to participate. The lawsuit accused the adults in charge of pressuring the 13- and 14-year-olds into activities that caused them physical and mental harm.
Such “gross-out” games have become a fad in youth ministry. Since adolescents are amused by bodily functions, crude behavior, and tastelessness following the church-growth principle of giving people what they like as a way to entice them into the kingdom many evangelical youth leaders think this is a way to reach young people.
The Source for Youth Ministry, a popular and widely used resource center, posts scores of games on its website, many of which were contributed by youth group leaders in the field. There is Sanctuary Softball, which involves whacking a Nerf ball in church, with home plate being the area of the altar, and running through the pews, as the fielders then try to hit the batter with the ball to make an out. Another fun activity is Seafood Catch, which involves putting minnows in the baptistery, then catching them by hand. (“Extra points for eating them after it is done.”)
Then there are games designed to appeal to adolescents’ hormones. These include kissing games like “Kiss the Wench.” “Leg Line Up” has girls feel boys’ legs to identify who is who. Some of them have odd homosexual subtexts, like “Pull Apart,” in which guys cling to each other, while girls try to pull them apart. Another has girls putting make-up on guys, leading to a drag beauty show. Then there is the embarrassingly Freudian “Baby Bottle Burp,” in which girls put a diaper (a towel) on a boy, then feed him a bottle of soda, and cradle him until he burps!
These are presented as just ordinary games, good ways to break the ice at youth group. But there is another category of “Sick and Twisted Games.” Many of these involve eating and drinking gross things, like at the Indiana church. (“Toothbrush Buffet” has youth group leaders brushing their teeth and spitting into a cup. Each then passes it along to the next in line, who uses what is in the cup to brush his teeth. The last one drinks down everyone’s spit.) Others are scatological, and are too repellent to describe.
What do teenagers learn from these youth group activities? Nothing of the Bible. Nothing of theology. Nothing of the cost of discipleship. But they do learn some lessons that they can carry with them the rest of their lives.
*Lose your inhibitions. Young people usually have inhibitions against doing anything too embarrassing or shameful. These exercises are designed to free people from such hang-ups. For some reason, post-Freudian psychologists whose “sensitivity groups” are the model for these kinds of exercises maintain that such inhibitions are bad. Christians, though, have always insisted that we need to feel inhibited about indulging in things for which we should feel ashamed. This is part of what we mean by developing a conscience.
Though being “gross” may not be sinful in itself, overcoming natural revulsions can only train a child to become uninhibited about more important things.
*Give in to peer pressure. Defenders of these kinds of activities maintain that they help create group unity. The way they work, though, is to overcome a teenager’s inhibitions with the greater desire to go along with the group. In other words, these exercises teach the teenager to give in to peer pressure. Instead, youth groups need to teach Christian teenagers not to go along with the crowd and to stand up against what their friends want them to do.
*Christianity is stupid. Status-conscious teenagers know that those who are so desperate to be liked that they will do anything to curry favor are impossible to respect. Young people may come to off-the-wall youth group meetings, but when they grow up, they will likely associate the church with other immature, juvenile phases of their lives, and Christianity will be something they will grow out of.
Teenagers get enough entertainment, psychology, and hedonism from their culture. They don’t need it from their church. What they need and often yearn for is God’s Word, catechesis, and spiritual formation.
Reprinted from FCF World Ministries.
And since 2002, the pied pipers of pragmatism have taken yet one more steep step down the rung in their worldly, Christ-less social gatherings.
The Berean Wife alerted me to an article from Folio Weekly (in PDF format) detailing the atrocious behaviors of a “church” youth group. This unbelievable article is entitled Peanut Butter Salvation: Why a Southside MegaChurch Thinks That Goldfish Swallowing and Toe-Licking Will Lead the Next Generation to God.
Here are some quotes from this article along with my commentary interjected in red.
As the youth leader held his arms aloft, the teenagers gaped at the hair, furred into a strip matted by sweat and deodorant. They watched as Pastor Turner dug into a jar of peanut butter and smeared gobs of it onto the exposed underarms, then turned to the audience. Did anyone, he asked, have the guts to lick it clean and swallow it down without puking? He got two volunteers. As the audience roared with excitement and disgust, the two male teenagers approached the youth leader and began to lick his armpits, burrowing their faces in the peanut butter and eating it. Neither puked. Their only prize was bragging rights. [This one needs no comment.]
It may seem hard to believe, but the genesis of the “Fearless” program was a marketing impulse.[No, it’s not really that hard to believe. It’s what we’ve come to expect from those who think they can “do church” better than God.] Pastor Turner and his creative team say they wanted to do something that would shock and astound their teenage audience. [If you really want to “shock and astound” the teens, try preaching the Word!] They hoped to get students talking about Celebration Church and about the Wednesday night service. [Because talking about Jesus and His finished work on the cross just isn’t as cool.] They wanted a buzz that would go viral, that teens would text and Twitter about. They wanted the kids to share their cell phone pictures and videos. Ultimately, they wanted hordes of kids to show up the following Wednesday to see what crazy things the youth ministry would think up next. [Makes the church leadership feel good seeing all those kids show up to see what crazy world-mimicking things the youth ministry would think up next. What about the novel idea that kids should be showing up to church to learn more about God and to fellowship with the brethren? Oh, and don’t forget, what you attract them with is ultimately what you have to keep them with. And here’s the paradox: Take away the contrived entertainment and you lose the kids, “They’re not doing what attracted me, dude, so I’m outta here.” Keep the same level and you lose the kids, “They’re not cutting edge, they’re like so 5 minutes ago, I’m outta here.” So the only solution is to push the envelope more and more.]
The program isn’t confined to the church’s Deerfield Boulevard campus. [Why not just say church? What is so offensive to all these megachurches that they hide behind the name “campus?”] Across town, at the Orange Park campus, another youth minister was hosting his own “Fearless” event. . . . Instead of an armpit, [22 year-old Pastor Shawn] Kelley smeared peanut butter on a youth leader’s feet and challenged two teens to lick it off. It was pretty gross, the pastor assures. “This leader’s feet are pretty bad.” . . . Still, Kelley says he did not, as Folio Weekly heard from a concerned parent, spread the peanut butter on his own feet, or between the youth leader’s toes. “We didn’t want to put it in between his toes,” he says. “That would be pushing it.” [Oh, so now we’re taking a lesson on morality and what is and is not “pushing it” from Mr. Kelley. We’d love to know by what standard you rely on to define what’s “pushing it” and what’s not.]
Pastor Turner wants to send kids home from church thinking, “I don’t believe what just happened here tonight.” [Not thinking about their utter sinfulness before a holy God and the only propitiation for their transgressions being the spotless Lamb of God nailed to a cross because without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sins.] That’s a fair approximation of what one area mother felt when her son came home from the Orange Park service with video footage of the toe-licking. . . . She was so upset that the next morning she contacted Pastor John Wyatt, the head youth pastor for all six Celebration locations. She was stunned when he didn’t agree that having a child lick anything off an adult’s feet was inappropriate. . . . [She may have been stunned, but we’re not. In fact, just wait till you see the comments start pouring in on this post defending this foolishness.] The mother suggests that the act between a minor and an adult in a private home would seem not only inappropriate, but perverse — and possibly illegal. [Wow, she hit the nail on the head!] But she says Pastor Wyatt, 37, and other church leaders didn’t concede there was anything wrong with what they’d done. [And they never will.] The woman decided not to allow her son to attend the church again. . . . [Although I question why she let him attend in the first place, this decision is wise.] “When you send a kid to church, you aren’t expecting they are going to be exposed to something like that. It just does not really make sense how Bible study turns into fish eating and eating peanut butter off a grown man’s toes.” [We’ve been trying to make sense of this foolishness too, but in the end, it’s just silly men who have never grown up, getting paid to play silly games with kids who will eventually be inoculated against true Biblical Christianity.]
“The idea is to get students here to meet our Savior. They are getting all this crazy stuff out there in the world all the time. We are trying to show them that God is cooler.” [1. No, no, no. The “church” was never meant to be the place for people to “meet our Savior.” The church is for the Believers, not the unbelievers. If an unbeliever attends a church service and he “meets our Savior” then great, but this was not the purpose of the assembly of the brethren. Actually reading your Bible would clarify the confusion.
2. So you’re essentially using the old “bait and switch” tactic to sucker teens into your church? I guess if you’re offering a fuzzy, non-offensive, feel-good Jesus then you can get away with it.
3. You’re “crazy stuff” is somehow better than the “crazy stuff” in the world, how? Because you’ve “Christianized” it?
4. God is not “cool.” For crying out loud, if you can’t comprehend or even remotely understand the nature of God you have no business being a pastor. Have you forgotten that “cool” is defined by the world? Your god is an idol formed in the imaginations of your “creative team.” You can keep your god. I’ll stick to the true God revealed in Scripture who is not hip, cool, or what’s happening now, but who is holy, holy, holy.]
Asked whether there was a religious lesson behind the grotesquerie, Wyatt offers, “It’s all about what it means to be fearless and know God is with you.” Pastor Kelley describes the “Fearless” stunts as metaphors for the courage it takes to be young and openly Christian. “It’s about being fearless, by allowing them to do something that took boldness, that they might possibly get made fun of for doing,” he says. “Standing up for Christ in the world requires you to be fearless.” [So let me get this straight. Standing up for Jesus requires boldness and fearlessness, but instead of instilling that in the youth by having them actually stand up for Jesus, or even showing them by example, instead you have them perform sick, twisted, and erotic games and this will somehow help them stand up for Jesus? And if they need to perform these juvenile games to stand up for Jesus then does that not mean that you’re suggesting to them that their source of strength comes not from God but from them and their willingness to act like fools? Here’s a novel idea: Try having them become “fearless” by actually proclaiming Jesus Christ, and start with you by boldly preaching Jesus Christ. Then encourage the one’s that are really sincere to take missions trips to countries where standing up for Jesus will get you imprisoned, tortured and/or killed. Somehow I don’t think the countless martyrs throughout church history and today needed to lick peanut butter off someone’s toes in order to stand up for Jesus.]
Wyatt also points out that it’s much easier for a kid to talk about church with other teens when the conversation is about chugging a Happy Meal or bobbing for chicken feet. “They experience God here on Wednesday nights,” says Pastor Wyatt, “and they can’t always articulate that to their friends. This gives them something to say. ‘Wow, you’ve got to come to church, you’ve got to check this out. This is amazing! ’” [Of course it’s easier to talk about Happy Meal chugging or bobbing for chicken feet if you’re unregenerated. Preach the pure, unadulterated, hard truth of the gospel then sit back an watch the kids talk to other kids. A word of caution though, if any of them do get truly converted, they’ll probably be telling other kids about Jesus Christ and his sacrifice instead of your church, and they probably won’t remain in your church for very long either.]
“Unfortunately, somebody was offended, and we apologized right away,” says Pastor Wyatt. “But the other side of that is, there was a whole bunch of kids who gave their life to Christ that night. Ultimately, our goal is to get people into church and into a relationship with Jesus.” [Ah, the old “someone gave their life to Christ” card. Always employed when someone questions the worldly, Chirst-less, and wholly unbiblical marketing tactics of today’s cool, hip, and relevant social clubs. Somehow, we’re told not to judge them, but they are quick to judge others, claiming to know the hearts of these kids and pronounce that they’re saved. Here’s an experiment I suggest trying. Take these kids who you claim to have “given their life to Jesus,” separate them from the toe-licking and armpit licking shenanigans, and teach them the hard things. Teach them the whole counsel of God. Teach them doctrine. Teach them that they are expected to lay down their life daily, that they’re to die to self, that they’re to take up their crosses daily and follow Christ. Teach them that those who choose to live holy lives will be persecuted. Teach them that friendship with the world is enmity to God and that those who love the things of this world are enemies of God. Then we’ll check back in with you in six months and see where those kids who “gave their life to Christ” are. If they were truly converted they will be right there desiring more of the meat of the Word. If they were false converts they’ll have left for the other megachurch down the street who has bowling/pizza nights, whip cream fights, rock concerts, gross-out games, and the weekly “rededicate your life to Christ” alter call.]
This article also interviews Karen McKinney, a director of youth ministries and associate professor at Bethel University who opposes the foolishness of what you’ve just read above. But just when you think there’s a voice of reason, we read this:
McKinney finds programs copying “Fear Factor” and other puke-inducing events to be a contradiction to the church’s message of stewardship. “What did we just teach?” she wonders rhetorically when told about the youth program. “What value is it when we know there are kids starving? … There are ways to teaching young people to be bold without wasting food.” [McKinney is about to offer an example of how she taught teens valuable lessons by means of a much better technique. Brace yourselves.] As an example, McKinney remembers how she was invited to speak about sexual boundaries to a teen group at a church in downtown St. Paul. After brief introductions, she broke the 12 students into two groups and told them they were going to play strip Pictionary. For every round lost, the losing group would have to take off an item of clothing. Before they even started, she says she could hear a 13-year-old girl say under her breath, “This is wrong.” But she said the group went through three rounds before the 13-year-old stood up and said, “I thought the topic was boundaries. We should not be playing this game.”McKinney then asked the other students if they also thought the game was wrong and why they didn’t voice those concerns. “They got the message loud and clear what it means to stand up when it comes to crossing these kinds of boundaries,” she says. Licking peanut butter off somebody’s armpit, she observes, crosses those boundaries without drawing valuable lessons for the Celebration students. “It’s just totally inappropriate,” she says. [So it’s all right to “cross boundaries” as long as a lesson is learned? And encouraging 13-year-olds to play strip Pictionary is an acceptable ends-justifies-the-means lesson? Good grief, the inmates are running the asylum!]
Welcome to the American Christianity where worldly wisdom reigns from the pulpit and rules the day. Those who lower Christianity to such base levels are showing that they do not believe that the Gospel is enough to save as the Apostle Paul believed it was when under inspiration of the Holy Spirit he penned Romans 1:16: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes . . .”
Faith comes by hearing the Gospel, not by quaint little stories about how to be bold like Daniel while having kids perform gross and even erotic acts before their peers.
The defense commonly used by proponents of this worldly behavior in church is usually that they’re trying to reach a certain group, and in order to do that, they say, “you must first relate to that group and become like that group.” But I have to ask: If you have to reach people where they’re at, tell me, how do you reach the abortionist? How do you reach the homosexual? How do you reach the intravenous drug user? How do you reach the pedophile? I’ll stop there as I do not want to give these youth leaders any new ideas for their next big thing.
In seven years we went from teen girls feeling teen boys’ legs in youth group, to teens licking peanut butter off an adult’s feet and playing strip Pictionary. I can only imagine what the next seven years will bring.
I conclude with a quote from Gene Edward Veith who summed up the whole problem in his article posted above:
Status-conscious teenagers know that those who are so desperate to be liked that they will do anything to curry favor are impossible to respect. Young people may come to off-the-wall youth group meetings, but when they grow up, they will likely associate the church with other immature, juvenile phases of their lives, and Christianity will be something they will grow out of.
Christ Alone Wyoming 
Pastor Wyatt is 37. What in IQ or age? This is very so ridiculous and sick. I seriously doubt if these pastors even know Jesus. In teaching them to be fearless about God, how does all this nonsense teach them anything except what idiots these church people are. I certainly would not have let my children attend anything like this. They have got no love for Jesus, the bible or these youth who the parents have entrusted to their care. Youth pastors are a waste of time
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As a pastor…alright, a youth pastor…I am disheartened, but not surprised by what is revealed in this blog entry. I am saddened that there are leaders in churches across this country that have forsaken truth for tripe. I’ll tell you that it is something that many of “us” youth pastors battle – the temptation to have the latest & greatest, most talked about, and heavily attended youth group in the county / city. If only we would just slow down and realize that so much of this putrid folly is ego-centric and get our focus on a ministry that is for God’s glory, working His plan and pleasure in our own lives – and the lives of those we minister to! There are many yp’s out ‘there’ that are committed to the Word and the God of the Word…unfortunately they don’t get blazing headlines like these fellas do.
For His glory & Name’s sake…I am a youth pastor.
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How sad! Inoculated against Christianity is definitely where it is leading!
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Without argument it’s wrong and totally gross what is going on in some youth groups. NO DOUBT! BUT I personally was taught and discipled as part of a youth group that often ramped on the insane, not that everything done was right~in fact some was down right WRONG, yet without my attention I don’t think I would have ever heard the good, the godly, the message.
As a forty something pastor’s wife who has spent my life working with kids and teens, I refuse to cross boundaries even for “the point,” but do recognize that young people do not speak my language nor is their culture the same as mine. I am constantly looking for a way to be Christ to all men that I might win some. Hard job, true. Compromising is not an option. I have teens also. Two issues: mine are homeschooled and not socialized (if you want to call what many kids are) as the public schooled kids~90% of all church kids are public schooled…so when we reach in/to train and teach/disciple~cookies, cool aide and a color sheet just don’t work anymore. The church is NOT teaching nor is it reaching. AND as a homeschool mom, do you think I want MY KIDS hanging with kids who are not “socialized” in their church even? It’s not just a question of HOW to reach young people with appropriate means, but of WHO will reach them. It’s the parental responsibility which has been abdicated for materialism. The kids are suffering~the home is in chaos and the church in decline.
I praise God for a gold fish eating youth pastor who got my attention but also taught and showed the way. Perfect it was not, but somebody tried. Left alone, I would have found the way of ALL my friends, addicted and wrecked.
This is a call to parents and the church to stand strong in training children and leading them, not intertaining them, but it starts at home with God at the helm. AND nobody better expect MY KID to lick their toes! NOBODY!
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As a parent of a 13yo young lady, this scares me. BUT… My husband and I are involved in our youth group. Our Director of Youth Activities likes to be cutting edge, but also knows that we are blessed to live in a community where parents are involved with their children.
I have not been the only mom to sit and observe, volunteer to chaperone, or stay until the place is cleaned up. There are even a few dads involved with the boys Bible study, which is a great example to all our youth.
I do believe that our desire for “numbers” can blind our hearts to what is really important: Teaching and training the next generation to love and serve God.
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This is all utterly demonic. Plain and simple. These are the worst kinds of examples.
But aside from these, the common thread throughout many churches today is novelty and excitement. Yet, as Spurgeon said, “What is born in excitement most often dies once the excitement is over.” This is never more true in 21st century American Christian circles… which, by the way, is being exported to other countries as a means of capturing souls for Christ.
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The Pilgrim,
Thank you for dealing with this issue. I pray that any with youth would pull their youth out of this stupidity.
This pretty much sums up the view of those who have grown up in the average church and in youth groups. They graduate from school and graduate from church never to return, “kids who will eventually be inoculated against true Biblical Christianity.”
So sad. What must our Lord think !?!
Berean Wife
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Would someone show me in scripture (soundly, using the whole Bible, not just one or two out of context verses) where and when:
1. God has ordained the church to teach the children rather than the fathers teaching them,
2. God has ordained age segregation during the gathering together of the believers, and
3. God has ordained another leadership position called “youth minister”?
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This, sadly, will be the end result of these shenanigans. These kids will go on to college, learn to give in to peer pressure–pressure to go out and get drunk and sleep around. Why? Because they will fear being picked on and laughed at by the world, all the while having no fear of the holiness or righteous judgments of God. They will grow out of their “church phase” and look back when they are older and think “I was so stupid to listen to that goofball and all his Bible stuff.” And, alas, the Lord Jesus Christ will be filed away into the collection of memories he/she considers “stupid” and “foolish.”
And all the while, that youth
“pastor”fun-group leader will go on thinking he did something wonderful for God and that he “led 8000 kids to Christ”–all of whom will have walked away from that same “Christ” that this immature youth“pastor”fun-group leader has disgraced by his worldly desire to be hip/cool/relevant/popular.LikeLike
Mrs. Travers,
Thanks for stopping by. I do not believe there is anybody who can show you an affirmative answer to your three questions. This would be true of a number of things we probably find in church today that were not found in the early New Testament churches. The Bible is silent in many areas of church practice, but that does not necessarily make the thing right or wrong. For instance, some churches take up offerings in a bag, some in a plate, some just put a box on the wall at the back.
However, back to your questions. There are many things done in church today that are done for expedience sake. Over the years, parents have abrogated their God-given responsibilities and passed them off to others. We start each week by walking in the front door of the church and pass the kids off to the Sunday School teacher for an hour, then to the children’s church or youth ministry for another hour – and THEN have the audacity to think those 2 hours of “religious” training will carry our kids through the entire week. They wake up on Monday morning and we feed them to the wolves that prowl the halls of primary and secondary education classrooms. Then the children grow up with a socialistic, depraved worldview, and the parents begin showing up to prayer meeting pleading with God for years to bring their children back to church!
“God is not mocked. Whatsoever we sow, we will reap!”
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This comes at a great time, your information. There are some things goung on in our youth program at church that are plain wrong, and when mom tried tos ay something they ganged up on her. Yah Mom for sticking to your ‘olf timr’ principals. Thank you
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Thank you so much for this timely, and saddening, insight into the condition of much of the modern, visible church. Most megachurches are filled with unregenerate people and the leadership caters to what these people want rather than ministering to God’s people, the true converts. If they began preaching and teaching as they should, admonishing in Godliness and truth, the majority of people would walk out the door. It is a sad state of affairs but there are a few, remnant fellowships out there and every believer should seek one out. It can be difficult but we must separate from the ungodliness that is being perpetrated blasphemously in the name of our Lord. These things are evil and true believers should depart from them.
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I ran across this very accurate description of these type churches:
The Seven Solas of the Modern Church:
Sola Cultura – let culture define church life
Sola Successa – Let numerical success legitimize activities
Sola Entertaina – Let entertainment be the guiding principle
Sola Edificia – Let the edifice be the center of church life
Sola Programma – Let programs dominate the peoples time
Sola Thralldoma – Let the people be enslaved by whatever thrills them
Sola Processa – Let the church be managed by business philosophies and processes
from http://girdedwithtruth.org/2009/06/09/the-seven-solas-of-the-modern-church/
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Thanks for sharing this eye opener. Over the past years I have been observing from the side lines in at least 3 different “ministry” settings similar (and at least — to my limited focal point no being involved with these groups directly — not quite as gross as the examples above but definitely as questionable) happenings.
I have a question to you. You are talking about specific “church youth ministries”. I assume (at least it would be MY understanding) that this also applies to Youth Ministries which opperate outside of a church setting (youth missionaries, for example)…
Would it be your understanding that youth missionaries whose goal is not to get kids into a church but to present the gospel (they go to the schools for example and open up bible studies and groups) should also refrain from such practices?
(Cause that would also be my understanding, but like I say, I have run into a few missionaries who, according to my limited knowledge of what they actually do, seem to be involved with some pretty heavy “youth culture” activities…)
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I hope those youth pastors all get fired, so they will have to go work for a living. I hope they get sued also. sincerely, carrie daniel
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I have just finished reading this entire blog entry, and my heart is breaking. First I would like to say that many valid points are made. There are ministries and youth leaders out there who are very poor representatives of Christ and His kingdom.
But please, I ask the author of this post and all who read it, do not judge all youth leaders together. Yes, I am one. Yes, I lead a youth group every Wednesday night. Yes, we play games during part of our time.
No, we do not play games that in any way try to purposefully gross students out. Once, and only once, I neared that line and have never come within sight of it again. We don’t play “strip” anything. Last night we played relay pictionary and raced to see which team could spell the most words with Alphabit cereal. It was enjoyable, harmless, not gross, and the teens munched on the cereal as we all turned in our Bibles to John chapter 9 and had a study about how Jesus healed a man born blind.
Please do not lump me and many of my colleagues together with the specific instances written about in this post. Dare I say that I can relate to my students AND do so without sacrificing the truth? Is it arrogant or ignorant of me to believe that is what I do, or strive to do, in my capacity as a youth leader?
I use myself as an example in this matter not because I think highly of my abilities, because I credit any success to a perfect God who is for some reason choosing to work with an imperfect woman, but because my life is the example closest at hand for me to use.
Please, I am not saying that the specific instances outlined in this post are not true, but I am saying that they are just that. . . specific. I humbly ask all who read this to please acknowledge, or at least consider, that these instances do not define what youth ministry is.
They certainly do not define my heart for sharing Christ with lost teenagers and discipling those teenagers in my group that have already come to Him.
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My kids do not attend youth group for the very reasons listed above. BEWARE PARENTS …more harm than good seems to come from these gatherings. Our children are Biblically illiterate because our youth pastors teach GAMES instead of THE WORD and LIVING OUT OUR FAITH.
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It seems there are some think that they can chew the meat and spit out the bones & still play the card of “it still led me to Christ, wrong as some if it was, and how would I have ever gotten saved without it?” nonsense.
ALL of this is man-centered, child-centered, and nothing short of animalistic behavior, lacking in Self- Control, honor, integrity, holiness, love, faithfulness, and Scripture.
God saves by the PREACHING of the WORD and folks are saved by the HEARING OF IT. HE doesn’t need stupid and absolutely disgusting childish animal antics to “get people saved”. God is TOO HOLY to stoop that low.
Experience doesn’t dictate what is biblical. Scripture does.
How did you “learn Christ?” By entertainment, fleshly ways?
Eph 4:19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
Eph 4:20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!–
Eph 4:21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus,
Eph 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Tit 2:6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled.
Tit 2:7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,
Tit 2:8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.
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http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=106091614287
Short sermon by Robert W Reed 17 minutes on youth ministry
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http://www.christianpost.com/article/20091212/modern-youth-ministry-unbiblical-ministry-leader-claims/index.html
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shane,
Thanks for posting that link! It’s a great reminder that the Word of God is SUFFICIENT! As we have moved away from the 5 solas of the Reformation, we have been seduced in many ways by the culture.
A few families from my church were at that conference last week – really good stuff.
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Youth ministry is a subject I have been giving some thought about here lately. Now that I am a dad I wonder if my son will actually be taught anything worth while in a youth group. Youth groups are still a subject on which I am sitting on the fence. I guess they could be a good thing if kids are actually taught the Bible instead of always going to do next activity. But they will never be a substitute for my roll in teaching my child. From what I remember from being in public school, the kids that were “Christians” were no different than the ones that weren’t. If a youth group would be to blame for that, then I would have to give youth groups a thumbs down.
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Dear Shane:
In your quest to determine where you stand on Youth Ministry, consult your Bible. If you find a complete absence of such a concept (along with “youth pastors”) then I would submit for your consideration the idea that it is not only an unbiblical concept, but a man-made tradition that was created to fix a problem that Biblical illiteracy in the home originally created.
We tried to fix a problem with another problem and it hasn’t worked.
You are on the right track, however, when you said:
That, unlike church youth group, can be supported from the Bible.
Also, I submit for your consideration the following additional resources to help you get off the fence:
* Voddie Baucham’s book Family Driven Faith.
* The sermon The Centrality of the Home that can be downloaded from this post.
* The sermon Child Training which can be downloaded from this post.
Sincerely,
– The Pilgrim
P.S. For your study, check out Who’s Pastoring the Youth Pastors? and The Problem With Youth Ministry Today.
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Thanks for the links Pilgrim. I will have to check them out. I hope and pray that my son will be a positive influence on a youthgroup instead of a youthgroup being a negative influence on him. There is an abscence of them in the Bible. Along with “altar calls”, “raise your hand decisions”, and the “sinners prayer”. Three things that I think have done a lot of damage. Three things that I haven’t found in the Bible.
If the “church”, I use that term loosly, has been doing it for years, doesn’t that make it right?<small hint of sarcasm
Traditions, uggg, I got a funny look at my church when I said that altar calls and the like were not Biblical. I can't wait to see what happens if I say I disagree with youth groups.
This if for anyone that has criticism of me about the "sinners prayer". I have no problem with a sinner saying a prayer. I do have a problem with telling someone they are saved when they say said prayer.
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As a youth pastor, I would welcome parents getting involved in the youth group to:
1) ensure that correct doctrine is being taught
2) ensure that the doctrine being taught is supportive of what they’re teaching in their home
Many people voice concerns over “youth group” and yet they don’t (or won’t) get involved in it.
I think the argument that “the Bible doesn’t endorse youth groups” may be a bit far fetched. The Bible doesn’t endorse a lot of things that the Church is currently involved with. I wholeheartedly support the belief that parents should be the primary theological instructors in their childrens lives. This can, and should, also be in conjunction with instruction from the Church.
Now, as to the form of instruction from the Church…ah, this is where the rub comes in. The silliness of what many churches have in their youth group is not a valid reason to condemn ‘youth groups’ altogether. Not every group is like that…and it is silly to assume so.
There are benefits to having additional teaching to teens – it is no different than having a men’s bible study or ladies small group. (I dislike anecdotal arguments, but here goes…) I teach 6 major doctrines, in concentrated study, to my teens during their time in my group. The teens come away with solid theological training and see it practically applied in ministry to others in our church.
My question to those who are “anti-youth groups” would be this: Is it wise for the church to set aside time for further, deeper and practical instruction of the Word for teens? If not, why not? How is this damaging the Church? (I’m assuming that teens are being instructed in “traditional” Sunday services, and being instructed in the home – btw, in a lot of churches, I agree, this ISN’T happening) [by traditional I mean the Word is proclaimed and Christ is glorified]
I absolutely agree with getting rid of the shenanigans that many pose as youth meetings. The problem is that too many, even some who have posted here, ride the pendulum too far the other direction and call it “biblical”. I guess I’m not seeing it.
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gracedependent
“There are benefits to having additional teaching to teens – it is no different than having a men’s bible study or ladies small group.”
I guess that is one of the reason’s I am still on the fence as far as youth groups go. The point you make there is the point my wife makes.
But the never ending stream of fundraisers, camps, gimmicks, and etc make me weary of youth groups. The youth pastor at my church had started a youth Bible study. He only had 1 to 2 youths show up but, when it comes to doing “drama” and “human videos” they have plenty show up. It appears there is no interest in Bible study just gimmicks. I guess that is no different than the adults though.
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Shane,
How are you encouraging the youth pastor at the local church that you attend? Have you brought your teen to the bible study? (if possible) How about meeting with the YP to pray about the spiritual condition of the teens? Maybe volunteer to help lead a bible study? Make known your willingness to drive teens to the bible study in the case that they may not have transportation? Perhaps host the bible study in your home?
More importantly, what are you doing as a dad to instruct your teen? How are you taking in Truth so that you can also instruct others?
There are a myriad of practical ways to assist those who work with the youth in the local church. Some creative thinking will go a long way!
Godspeed,
mark
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mark aka gracedependent,
As my elders put it when they tell visiting pastors why we don’t do programs – such as youth: Every thing the church does sends a message to the families. Every program the church has give fathers the opportunity to shrink back from their duty of leading the family and teaching the children.
Not all people react the same, but it’s human nature for people to want to grow their businesses – youth “pastors” included as it is human nature to get by in areas that are not important to one – most fathers in regards to their spiritual responsibilities in the home.
So then – why would a church do anything that is not found in Scripture AND has a profoundly bad influence on families?
(That’s all my poor paraphrase. Spend time listening to Voddie Baucham and you will better understand what I’m trying to say.)
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“So then – why would a church do anything that is not found in Scripture”
This is what boggles my mind. How far are you willing to take this line of thinking? Are you saying that the contemporary (today’s) church must be exactly like a NT church in both form and function? If you answer “yes”…I’d love to speak to you about your church.
And I am interested in your reply.
Please note that I am not defending the senseless drivel that drove the original post.
~mark
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mark,
There is a reasonable approach to the Regulative Principle. Some things – air conditioning, materials, technology, etc. – are not the issue. What is at issue is what we do and why we do it.
I don’t think we have enough information on “the NT church” – much less do we have agreement on whether one means what we read about in Acts or what we read in the epistles.
In Scripture, the fathers are commanded to instruct their children. Nowhere is the church told to do so.
Consider this: sola Scriptura means all that is necessary for our salvation and growth in righteousness is found in Scripture – the Bible testifies to this. Anything man adds to how we worship God and follow His commands rests on the wisdom of man. The only thing man can bring to God is sin. We ought to stick to what He has revealed to us in Hiw Word – we can have assurance that it is honorable in His sight. And we have much work to do before we are fully compliant with that – so why waste time using our sinful minds to honor God our own way? Eli’s sons did that and it didn’t work out so good.
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my son is not a teen yet. He still has a ways to go.
“gracedependent
How are you encouraging the youth pastor at the local church that you attend? ”
the person we have now as the youth pastor is technically the associate pastor. He is just doing it because they can’t find a youth pastor. Until my son is old enough to join a youth group I don’t feel like I have the right to make any suggestions or question why they do what they do. Probably any suggestions or comments I have would probably fall on deaf ears anyway. There are a lot of issues there that probably outweigh youthgroups anyways. Such as lack of discipleship, evangelism, and etc.
I have thought about doing a class on how to study the Bible. I am not the best at studying the Bible but, I do think I would have a lot to offer. Especially conscidering some of the things I have seen and some of the questions I have heard asked at church. I think the youth would grately benefit from a class such as that. Hopefully the seminary class I am taking will be of some use afterall.
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@Manfred – I agree wholeheartedly with your reply.
Now, does your church follow (in form and function, not technology, etc) _only_ what we read in Scripture concerning the church?
If we “don’t think we have enough information on ‘the NT church’ – much less agreement” on Acts or the epistles…then why condemn youth groups? (putting aside the godless actions of some – I’m in total agreement that much of what passes as “youth meetings” is silliness)
I wholeheartedly hold to Sola Scriptura. I totally disagree that my having a “youth group” is contrary in principle or otherwise to anything in Scripture. Are small groups to be condemned as well? The group meeting is not “adding” anything to worship – we worship corporately the sovereign Lord.
Your logic is puzzling. I’m not adding anything to salvation or sanctification by having a meeting time, in which the doctrines of God’s Word are proclaimed, and in which Christ has preeminence.
I still am interested in hearing how your church functions as a corporate body. In what ways does it, “stick to what He has revealed to us in His word” and in what ways does it deviate from that? I think if you would answer these questions you may see the flaw in your logic.
grace to you brother and thanks for your challenging thoughts!
mark
———————————–
@shane,
I would encourage you to get to know how your church operates in it’s youth group and offer suggestions gracefully right now! I know, as a pastor, that I would love any kind of input or ideas / suggestions. Those who would refuse a gracious church member offering suggestions have an issue with pride.
Please, please get involved in your church in some way. Even if it means simply taking what you’re learning in seminary (awesome!) and teaching another individual. Reproduce what you are learning from Scripture in others! Pray for your leaders! Serve compassionately!
(I’m not shouting, just encouraging) 🙂
grace,
mark
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Mark,
You can read our most recent church bulletin here: http://gallery.mailchimp.com/ac076ad43aaeeaa7371f8b4ff/files/091220.pdf
That describes our weekly order and content of service.
Small groups in and of themselves are not wrong, as Christians have been meeting in homes as small groups since the beginning.
However, the only age demographic we see in the operation of the NT church is that “older women teach younger women and older men teach younger men”. Youth groups and singles group, etc. gather people based on a temporal point of commonality. Singles don’t learn what a godly marriage looks like and teens don’t learn what a mature Christian looks like in such circumstances.
In my church, the young men are welcome to join the monthly mens’ meetings at age 12. We have small groups that meet in homes – families gather for study together and little ones participate as they are able (it’s a joy to hear young children read out loud). We have no nursery. My wife and I have never been around such a group of well grounded young folks in our lives. 17 year-olds discussing doctrine and theology over lunch. Unmarried women seeking their father’s continued spiritual leadership. All for the glory of God – in what is done and how it is done.
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I would like to ask a couple of question of those involved in this discussion:
* Where did the concept of “adolescence” come from?
* Does the Bible make any mention of this mysterious age between childhood and adulthood (i.e. adolescence), or is this a purely recent concept foisted upon us by psychology grounded in evolutionary thinking?
* Why does the church feel the need to follow in the footsteps of secular government educational philosophies and worldly wisdom by segregating people into age groups?
* Why does the church feel the need to divide the family in the area of fellowship, the breaking of bread, the study of God’s Word, and corporate worship?
* Why does the church feel the need to not only set the precedent but perpetuate the practice of separating families and suggest (by practice) that they can’t possibly worship together?
* Why does the church feel the need to encourage the father’s abdication of his responsibility to yet another paid teacher?
* Why can’t “teens” and children get in-depth study on doctrine alongside their parents? Why must the teaching and preaching of God’s Word be compartmentalized so that adults learn this, and “adolescents” learn that?
Why is it that youth groups continue to flourish in spite of their staggering failure rate (see the book Already Gone)?
Sincerely,
– The Pilgrim
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Pilgrim,
Those are the same types of questions our elders ask of those who are enthralled with “normal” church.
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“gracedependent
I would encourage you to get to know how your church operates in it’s youth group and offer suggestions gracefully right now!”
My wife and I are fairly new members there(a little over a year). We might need to “move up in the ranks more” first.
It would be very encouraging to see teenagers involved in theological study and discussion.
Sadly though, I think a lot of them would be uninterested in it.
My wife volunteered myself and her to work in the nursery in January. Maybe that will be a start. My pastor had asked me a while back if my wife and I would want to teach small childrens class on Sunday nights when they start up evening small groups again.
“Pilgrim
Why is it that youth groups continue to flourish in spite of their staggering failure rate”
I would think it is partly because of tradition (such as when I mentioned in my Sunday school class that altar calls have only been around for about 200 years, the people in my class seemed shocked), Biblical illiteracy and laziness of the parents, and the fact that many believe that because someone says a prayer or walks an isle that they are saved. When that person does not show any fruits they are just considered a carnal Christian.
Maybe I should bring a copy of Paul Washers “Shocking sermon” for the youth to listen to at my church. Though it might get me kicked out of church. LOL
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shane,
If Paul Washer’s message don’t get ya kicked out, try this one: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16924&forum=35
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Manfred,
I just listened to Voddie’s sermon you linked above, and it was characteristically powerful and convicting. His clear and trenchant teachings on the Biblical model of the family, and the role of the father serve as a continual encouragement and challenge to me personally. In my opinion Voddie is among the smartest and most prophetic voices of our day, and he acts as a much needed watchman on the wall for the generally apostate, and woefully wayward Southern Baptist Convention.
In Him,
CD
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CD,
Thank you for your reply. I agree with you – my close friends and I all agree: we are blessed by GOd to have this man as an elder in our church. His teaching is perhaps the best (solid, effective) I’ve sat under and he is a humble servant of the Lord, determined to avoid the spotlight and not to seek his own, realizing how vulnerable he is to the sinful desires of the flesh.
Time after time, he and Paul Renfro teach the Word – not man centered, but Christ centered – and all flesh is convicted and the souls of the saints rejoice in the grace poured out by our Lord.
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I happen to know Pastor Turner, Wyatt, and Sean Kelly. What I take issue with is that in both the article and the comments these guys are being deemed as demonic, unsaved, and basically idiots. Wow! Where is the love? Jesus did say that Love is the greatest commandment, didn’t He? I know, I know you are just righteously angry about the sheep that are being led astray. I happen to know that these young men love Jesus. They study His Word. They teach and encourage the kids in the church to do the same. They don’t preach watered down messages. They do preach the Word of God.
Even though I wouldn’t defend what happened on this particular night, I do believe that what they are doing is good overall. How would you fair if someone followed you around for a couple of days on your job? Maybe you are perfect, and you would be proud of everything you did, but I know that some people who have called for these guys to be fired, may not even be seen as Christians at their own place of employment.
How about this… If you don’t appreciate what your church’s youth ministry is doing, then don’t send your kids. But also, let’s not ignore the FACT that 90% of kids that grow up in church stop going in their 20’s. We might want to address the “Why?” behind that. Maybe the church should do a better job of engaging them in a way that makes sense to them, not just to their grandparents.
Just a thought.
CJ
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CJ,
It’s true that all men sin. When a man puts his sin on display and touts it as his ministry, that’s a whole ‘nuther issue.
Youth ministry has its basis in the flesh. It tears families down and that’s why so many graduates from youth ministries depart from the church.
Sensational acts to grab the attention of folk are the legacy of Finney, not any support in the Bible. They end up merely being another diversion for people who are conformed to the culture rather than being a refuge for the saints of the living God.
Friendship with men who engage in such nonsense does not eliminate the danger they present. You should closely examine what these friends do – from a biblical perspective rather than a personal approval perspective.
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Manfred,
Your response illustrates exactly what I’m saying. These guys may be errant, but that doesn’t mean that they are putting their sin on display. It may show their immaturity or even a lack of knowledge, but it’s not sinful. When Jesus said these words, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” he wasn’t saying that to the woman that was in sin. He said to to the accusers. Everyone here who makes accusations about these young men, while well meaning, are accusers.
You might say, “but they are truly in error and I can prove it with scripture.” Great. The woman that Jesus was referring to was in sin by all Biblical terms, yet Jesus defended her. Not her actions, but her. I am defending these guys because they are aren’t heretics that don’t know God. The truth is that ifGod examined you “from a biblical perspective” you would be found lacking. Oh wait. He did, and you needed His Grace that you didn’t deserve. He freely gave it to you. There is no Biblical basis from which to call these men demonic, dangerous, or unsaved. The Jewish leaders probably said the same thing about the woman who was caught in the act of adultery.
One other thing…Youth ministry is not based in the flesh and it does not tear down families. Try telling that to the thousands of young people that truly have received Christ and been ministered to through youth ministries. I could tell you story after story of young people who attended youth ministry services with a suicide wish, and got ministered to by the Holy Spirit on that very night, and decided to not take their own life. I know families that have gotten been counseled by youth pastors that saved them from being torn apart.
Listen, I will be the first person to tell you that there are many youth pastors that should be selling cars or working in the oilfield instead, but that doesn’t mean that youth ministry is of the devil. When you talk about the purity of the Word, but you leave LOVE out of the equation you aren’t any different the Pharisees of the day. They knew the scriptures so well that they forgot that God loves people. He loved the man with the withered hand enough to forsake the law and heal him on the Sabbath. We should allow the Word to guide us in everything we do, but without love Paul said that we will be like sounding brass or a clanging symbol. (And I’m sorry, but you can’t tell me that it is for the love of the kids because I haven’t heard very much about that in these responses or article. All I’ve heard is ridicule.)
I’ll say it again. Where is the love of Christ?
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CJ, the Lord Jesus Christ had NO TOLERANCE for apostates, i.e. the ‘religious Pharisees’ of His day. He called them hypocrites and brood of vipers…how’s that for love?
When men/women go outside the scriptures, using man-made ‘ideas’ to bring someone to church, or to Christ, they are relying on their own ‘work’, instead of the power of the Gospel.
If someone is indeed ‘immature’, or lacks knowledge, should they be in any type of position of teaching/authority over anyone? NO!!!!
Would you use scripture to back your claim of being unloving, show us where we’ve been unbiblical.
I also would like evidence, from God’s word, where He establishes ‘youth pastors’. I find the office of elder and deacon defined in His word……isn’t that enough, or must we add our own way of doing things?
Family worship is what we lack, we separate ourselves by putting the little ones in the nursery, the teens in youth groups, and the adults in adult bible study. Where is any of this division found in God’s word? Do we honestly think a youth pastor can ‘get through’ to our kids more so than an elder? If so, why? What is he doing that’s so ‘different’ than an elder? This is where the youth pastor thing unravels…they use cutesy things, ideas, etc. to lure kids into their program. This is where they fall short, they fail to use the ONLY weapon we have against sin, fallen humanity, the flesh, Satan and the world….the WORD OF GOD. It is powerful, a two edged sword, it cuts, it stings, it convicts. To add to it, or take away is sin…period.
If these so-called youth pastors are immature, they need to repent of their worldly ways and sit under Godly preaching {along with other believers of all ages} and quit trying unbiblical ways to ‘reach the young people’. Let’s get back to the only thing that works… preach the word!!!!
Lyn
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CJ,
Let’s look at the woman caught in adultery… or the man with the withered hand… What did the Lord say to THEM?
“Go and SIN NO MORE”
These youth ‘ministers’ (read: sicko’s) have not repented.
What happened to “Go and sin no more”?
Oh wait. They didn’t.
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Lyn,
Everything I have already pointed out is Biblical. I think that you misunderstood who the Pharisees were. The Pharisees were not the people that were about to be stoned for their sin. The woman caught in the act of adultery was. The Pharisee, the brood of vipers, as you pointed out, were the ones who demanded that the law be upheld at all costs. They were the “holy” ones that wanted to carry out God’s judgment without an ounce of love or forgiveness. The Pharisees addressed the woman strictly on the basis of the law. She was caught, and she needed to be punished. Jesus stepped in and said the person is more important than the law. Then He said that “Love” is the new law. Which one are we going to emulate here? For the record, I never said that what these guys did was sinful. (more on that below)
As far as your demand for evidence of youth pastors in the Bible you won’t find that term in there that I know of. However, you will find in Ephesians 4:11-16 an expression of God’s intent for the church to have varying gifts, given by Him in operation. I think that I’ve already explained that these youth pastors that were mentioned here, and many others DO preach the Word of God. You don’t have to believe me. That’s fine, but I know that they love Jesus, live clean lives before God, and preach the Word of God to the youth that they minister to.
I’ve also already addressed the fact that there are thousands testimonies of young people that have been “gotten through to” by a youth pastor. Many who’s lives were saved, literally by a Godly man who spoke the truth in love and allowed the Holy Spirit to speak through him to minister words of life that brought many to salvation by grace.
Jeff H,
All I can say is “how do you know?” How do you know whether or not any of these guys have repented? The answer is that you don’t and that is the problem. And for the record, I never said that what they did was sinful. I did say that for the sake the argument, it may have been immature, but not sinful. If the act was immature, it doesn’t mean that the people should be discarded. My point is that even if it were sinful, you wouldn’t know whether or not they repented. You don’t know them or anything about them.
Manfred,
“Friendship with men who engage in such nonsense does not eliminate the danger they present. You should closely examine what these friends do – from a biblical perspective rather than a personal approval perspective.”
My point in all of this is not based on my personal approval of what happened or my condemnation of it. I am simply saying that the people matter. Not just someone feeling like they won an discussion on the topic. I just don’t understand why you would condemn people that you don’t know even in the slightest way? People that Jesus died for and loves.
I have closely examined these guys. I can say with complete assurance that I have done so FAR more than anyone else who wrote or commented here. These guys love Jesus. They preach the Word to the youth that they minister to. Many of those have been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. With VERY few exceptions, parents have a great deal of appreciation with how these youth pastors partner with the parents to minister to the kids. That only scratches the surface on the good that has come from these guys.
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The office of “youth pastor” is not biblical. It is a reflection of the world’s system of education: present “experts” to the parents and seduce the parents into surrendering their God-given and commanded responsibilities to those “experts”. The shenanigans employed by many/most youth pastors reveal that they put more stock in methods than in the gospel.
Parents who are lazy and hateful to the Bible praise such arrangements, but that does not make it right. That some might be saved does not make it right.
Listen to this before you answer: http://media.sermonindex.net/15/SID15607.mp3
Then read http://www.voddiebaucham.org/vbm/Blog/Entries/2006/5/17_Youth_Ministry:__Part_2.html
and http://www.voddiebaucham.org/vbm/Blog/Entries/2006/5/18_Youth_Ministry:__Part_3.html
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Lyn,
The Bible doesn’t mention anything about golf. Do you think it was okay for me to share Christ with an old friend that I ran into at the golf course today?
I once spoke to a football team in their locker room before a game, but the Bible doesn’t mention football or locker rooms so was I in sin?
I was part of a group that went into a neighborhood, and we put on a festival, gave away free food, put on a puppet show, and shared the Word. Puppet shows are no where in the Bible, so were we being demonic?
Just wondering.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Manfred,
I happen to know Voddie Baucham personally. While I agree with him that the main thrust of discipleship falls on the family I couldn’t disagree with him more on the need for ministries that reach people whether that be a youth ministry or something else.
1 Corinthians 9 says, “For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”
If one soul is worth more than the whole world, and we could teach parents how to be parents, why would we ALSO employ ever means necessary to “save some”?
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CJ,
Voddie is one of my elders 🙂
You clearly do not understand 1 Cor 9. Man cannot save anyone. We are told how to be useful to God as He redeems those He predestinated to eternal life – proclaim Christ crucified for the sins of men and command men who are dead in sin to repent and believe!
These ‘stupid pet tricks’ mostly convince goats that they are sheep and make the performers feel good.
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Manfred,
I am open for God to correct me, but I do understand 1 Cor 9. I never said that we save anyone, but let’s let the scripture speak for itself, and not impose a personal agenda on it. I know that I didn’t include the whole chapter or book but that is in context. The Apostle Paul did mean what he said right there.
He didn’t say, “I am who I am and everybody needs to be like me or they are going to hell, and it’s all predestined anyway, so good luck.”
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CJ,
I offer this up for your edification, regarding that passage in 1 Cor: http://defendingcontending.com/2009/08/26/sermon-of-the-week-what-was-paul-doing-on-mars-hill-by-phil-johnson/
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I will listen to it tonight.
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Thanks, CJ. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it.
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CJ, before I begin, let me just say that I am making this comment in a sincere desire to see that the truth of God’s word is not misunderstood, so if it sounds like I am being overly critical or harsh, that is not my intention. But if I read one more person take “all things to all men” out of its proper context and use it as an excuse to act like a bunch of juvenile delinquents in church, I’m gonna barf! So many people whip out the “Paul was all things to all men” card (Or the “Pharisee Card”), thinking that there is no defense against it. WRONG!! There is a defense against that kind of Scripture-twisting, and it is a proper understanding of what Paul was saying.
CJ, may I direct you to an exegesis I did of this very statement. You can read it here. Needless to say, Paul was NOT telling people to act like the base elements of the world in order to make the gospel attractive to the lost.
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CJ, I like how you answer my post with questions.
As for using puppets, why not stick with just giving people the Gospel? Why do you insist we must spice it up, or present it in a way that seems ‘user friendly’? It’s no surprise that Christianity in America is in turmoil; when we resort to means of entertainment to reach the lost, we would be better off to stay at home.
I do hope you will read Fourpointer’s post, it will be a blessing.
As for your comment on the woman caught in adultery, I will direct you to John MacArthur’s commentary…
“He who is without sin”- This directly refers to Deut. 13:9, 17:7 where the witnesses of a crime are to start the execution. Only those who were not guilty of the same sin could participate’ – J. MacArthur
This is more of a biblical explanation than what you state.
I will ask again, can you show me from Scripture where the office of ‘youth pastor’ is mandated?
Thank you
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My 2 cents if you will…
Wherefore in words or in deeds, do it all for the glory of God…
It all boils down to that my friends….Do our actions help to advance the Kingdom of God, helps in our testimony/evangelism, and brings glory to the Father and His son Jesus Christ?
If so….then go do some more for God! Even encourage everyone else to do it with you.
but if not…..THEN why do it?
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Neil:
I see what you’re saying. And many youth workers do think they are doing their part for the glory of God. I don’t doubt their sincerity. They think they are busy about the work of the Kingdom. And I’m sure there are those who are. I guess the question really comes down to: are they truly bringing glory to God and His Son Jesus? If so, it will be in harmony with His word. Unfortunately, in churches across the land, youth ministry is not in harmony with the Word. Much of the focus has shifted from the power of the Gospel alone, to being “relevant” in order to gain their trust to the point that they will listen to the Gospel. And some of those attempts at “relevancy” have gone far away from any semblance of Christianity. Thus, in attempting to attract, entertain, capture their attention, the message of the Cross becomes neutralized. And thus the only God-ordained power to save is vanquished.
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From the original post: A youth leader chewed up a mixture of dog food, sardines, potted meat, sauerkraut, cottage cheese, and salsa, topped off with holiday eggnog. As if this spectacle were not disgusting enough (let the reader beware), he then spit out the mixture into a glass and encouraged the members of the youth group to drink it!
Fill in the blank:
This brings glory to God because ____________________
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Lyn,
Maybe you missed my post that was before the one with the questions in it. (Interesting that you only answered one of them). I answered the questions that you asked.
So, you think Jesus was giving the orders to start stoning her? Or do you think Jesus knew that every single person present was an adulterer?
Just wondering.
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fourpointer,
I appreciate what you are trying to say, I really do, but let me just remind you that I didn’t post here to point out to everyone that Paul said that we should be all things to all people. I understand that context of the scripture. I haven’t had a chance to read your blog yet, but I know exactly where it’s going.
It always concerns me when someone feels that they have the “full revelation” on a scripture or a topic. I’m sure that you are a brilliant guy along with Manfred and others here. I’m sure your theology is fully sound in every way. There is probably no possibility that there could be anything that you don’t know or have the full revelation of God on. I get it. We aren’t going to see eye to eye. And I know that you believe me to be in error and living in sin and a goat who has been fooled into thinking that I am a sheep and a hateful and lazy parent. (All of these I gather from previous posts here, and things I know about some of the elders mentioned here)
If you want to take this discussion in the way of a theological debate on the true context of 1 Cor. 9 then great. Go ahead. That completely misses the point of what I saying here. I have a much bigger problem with the way that people on this post and comments have made a personal judgement about three guys (and thousands of other youth pastors) without the slightest clue of who they are, their personal character, their spiritual lives, or what they preach to the kids.
Jesus demonstrated time and time again that he cared more about the individual than the rule of law. He cared more for the woman caught in adultery than the Pharisees that wanted to stone her cared about her. If that makes you want to puke, then get a bucket. I happen to think it’s worth emulating. Jesus still cares more about people than He does about the rule of law. In fact the new law is love. You can hang all the law on it.
So, when people get on here and determine to call three guys (that they do not know) “demonic” or “stupid”, I’m sorry, but I have a problem with that. I happen to know that these guys teach kids (who in many cases have little to no Godly parental influence) that they should study the Bible, pray, and worship God daily. Terrible stuff, I know. You can say, “Well we should be teaching the parents” and I agree with that, but if the parents are unresponsive to the gospel or instruction then should be just disregard the kids? Maybe we should do something to reach them.
So, if we need to head out to the neighborhood and present the gospel to lost people in a way that they can understand it, then I guess I don’t see anything wrong with that. I have never and would never suggest the gospel be altered to not be offensive to people. The reality is that the gospel is offensive. It’s abrasive, and that will never change ad should be proclaimed.
I said in an earlier post that if we could present the gospel through a puppet show to children why wouldn’t we do it? Every parent in the world is not a Godly man or woman like you are. So, should we just disregard those children who don’t have that?
I guess that’s not found in scripture so we should avoid it. Or maybe we could have the puppets read your exegesis on 1 Corinthians 9, but that probably wouldn’t be scriptural either.
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CJ:
I am just a fellow reader and follower of Jesus Christ. I encourage you to read the Old Testament again, and in particular reconcile the loving God that you see in Jesus Christ of the New Testament, with the same Almighty God Who is unyielding in righteousness and holiness in the Old Testament. Once you do this, I hope the conflict you have with all this may be resolved.
In Christ,
DavidW
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Jesus demonstrated time and time again that he cared more about the individual than the rule of law. He cared more for the woman caught in adultery than the Pharisees that wanted to stone her cared about her.
Drats! The Pharisee Card! Foiled again!
CJ,
What do you think about words like “sanctification” and “holiness”?
(PS–I’ll be gone all day tomorrow, in case I don’t answer back this evening)
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CJ,
Again, see the commentary I posted from MacArthur.
You state this, ‘I happen to know Pastor Turner, Wyatt, and Sean Kelly’…this may be why you defend this youth pastor thing, yet, I do not find such an office in scripture. Am I wrong, or have I missed this in God’s word?
As for the Pharisees, they could of cared less about the woman in adultery, they were trying to trick the Lord Jesus Christ {John 8:6, ‘This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.’} Enough rabbit trails, the post is about youth pastors/groups/ministries, let’s not divert from this.
I will address your questions, but future questions must be biblical and not hypothetical…
You asked ,’The Bible doesn’t mention anything about golf. Do you think it was okay for me to share Christ with an old friend that I ran into at the golf course today?’ My answer, yes, if you do it biblically -‘I once spoke to a football team in their locker room before a game, but the Bible doesn’t mention football or locker rooms so was I in sin?’ My answer, not if you followed biblical guidelines-‘I was part of a group that went into a neighborhood, and we put on a festival, gave away free food, put on a puppet show, and shared the Word. Puppet shows are no where in the Bible, so were we being demonic?’ My answer, not necessarily, but you will have no impact on lost sinners unless you preach the unadulterated Gospel, no frills, no circus acts, no entertainment…the word of God pricks the heart; not cotton candy and elephant ears.
Please refrain from any more rabbit trails, let’s stay on topic; now please give biblical evidence for the mandate of youth pastors/groups/ministries
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unworthy1,
The argument of youth pastor being found in scripture is maybe the worst argument against youth ministry that I’ve ever heard. As I said earlier, golf and football aren’t in scripture but it does not mean that they can’t be used by God as an conduit for the gospel.
You know, another thing that isn’t isn’t listed in scripture as an acceptable, scriptural way of communicating the gospel is digital recordings such as mp3’s. For that matter, I don’t see blogs in the Bible so this website is demonic since there are some people who use blogs to communicate filth and deception. Once someone can show me in scripture that blogs are scriptural I will need all of you to log off of this website.
If you want to talk about something that is not found in scripture, then lets talk about the internet. The internet as been documented to tear families apart so all of us should have gotten off of it a long time ago.
My point with the Pharisees was exactly what you said. That they didn’t care about her, but Jesus did. I know that you wouldn’t say that Jesus didn’t care about her.
Thank you for being so kind as to address my questions but they were rhetorical. I’ll try to live up to your standards of question asking from now on though. They are biblical questions. They all point to and expose a wrong perception. I know that all of the forms of ministry are valid, and I don’t need your “okay” to know that. God loves people. He went to great lengths to redeem mankind.
Last, I was never on a rabbit trail. I have been on point since the beginning. But again, sorry that I broke your rules for asking questions.
DavidW,
I appreciate your concern, but I assure you that I do not have any conflict to resolve concerning this. I would recommend that you read John 3:16 & 17.
fourpointer,
I don’t know where your bitterness about the word Pharisee comes from, but I wasn’t playing a gotcha game.
I think sanctification and holiness are great words. I believe in them whole heartedly. I also think that for a NT believer the word “righteousness” is more important.
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Would raising someone from the dead, spitting on the ground making mud an placing it on someone’s eyes, or having the disciples hand out a couple pieces of fish and bread, or even turning water into wine… I wonder if those would be considered frills.
I am sure that it would have been simple enough to just read from the scrolls, but instead HE wanted to draw the attention of those around him – not to himself, but to HIS Father.
And I am certain that if the youth pastors walked on water it could be seen as a circus act…
My point is that there is so much more to our walk, than an argument about the validity of an action. There is an opportunity in front of us all to impact the world we are living in. Unless we are making this a priority then we are missing the point of Christ.
I can completely understand the need to defend the purity of the Word, and can appreciate a pure heart for winning the lost. We just have to be careful not to change our priorities. Keep the heart right, work out your salvation, and watch as our hearts turn to the same thing….For God so LOVED the world…
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Jesus performed miracles to demonstrate that He was/is God. He rebuked those who followed Him for getting their bellies full.
In John 3:16, the word, “so”, is an adverb in the Greek; it cannot be an adjective. Go back a few verses and read verse 14: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.”
Verse 16 means “In this manner God showed His lvoe for the world, that He gave His son …” To read it as most Amercians do – and as inferred from the way you ended your comment – is to present God as one who is so smitten with His creation that He can’t keep from tryng to save all of them. Pity so many do not cooperate.
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Manfred,
You sound like Bill Clinton trying to define the word “is”. take “so” out but you can’t take “love” out. He showed His LOVE by going to the cross. When He was smitten with His creation He flooded the earth and took everyone out. When He died on the cross it was to demonstrate His love toward us. Romans 5:8.
He did miracles because he had compassion on people.
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Manfred
Agreed on many points, however He still LOVED the world.
I think we see eye to eye on the self indulgence of “bellies full” reference you make.
My point is that there were many things that were done in antiquity that would have been classified as a circus act, or frills. Again, the idea of licking peanut butter from someone’s pit is better left an idea and not a complete thought, we cannot throw out the principle of making people the focus instead of the flawed, human interpretation of the law (which seems to be the off-track conversation taking place).
Our pursuit for truth through scholarly diligence was never to find fault in men, it is meant to understand the truth that sets men free.
Great discussions!
Thanks
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Hello CJ,
This has been a very interesting conversation. Sadly, you have not really backed up your view completely with Scripture. You have taken Scripture out of context and twisted it. Your comment shows the truth of the matter because not only is God love but the beauty of God is holiness.
Righteousness, holiness, sanctification, and love are ALL very important in Scripture. Yes, I agree we are to love others but love also includes discipline. For some odd reason people equate sharing the truth with hatred or lack of love. As you said in one of your other comments, the gospel does offend. I will go even further and say not only does the gospel offend but doctrine divides! Matt. 10:35; Luke 12:53
Another place you made the comment that these men acted immaturely. As I have heard many times…immaturity is what children do when they accidentally wet their pants. Let us not equate adults acting in a way that does NOT bring honour and glory to the Lord to a child who has not learned to control themselves yet! Then again maybe they are acting like children who cannot control themselves but because they are pastors it is not immaturity it is sin. By the time a man becomes a pastor there should be control within or they are not fit for the ministry. This is not to say that there is no sin in us but have these youth pastors sought forgiveness publicly? Why don’t we look at those who are considered pastors which would include a youth pastor.
Let’s look at these words and see what they mean. First the bishop must be blameless (unrebukeable, irreproachable), husband of one wife, sober (sound in mind, self-controlled, discreet, sober, temperate), of good behaviour (orderly, i.e. decorous, modest), given to hospitality, apt to teach, not given to wine, not quarrelsome, not greedy, patient (mild, gentle, moderation), not a brawler (peaceable), not covetous, one that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all honesty (if a man can’t even rule his own house how can he take care of the house of God?). He shouldn’t be a novice (a young convert) Hmmmm…this is beginning to show forth a pattern!
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Titus 1:6-9 goes even further,
I won’t go repeat what has already been said but it continues on that a bishop must not be self-willed (self-pleasing, arrogant). a lover of good men (a promoter of virtue), just (equitable in character or act, by implication…just, holy, righteous), holy (pious, sacred, sure), temperate (self-controlled in appetite), holding fast the faithful word so that he may be able by sound doctrine to exhort (invite, desire, pray) and convince (admonish, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove) the gainsayers (those who refuse to listen).
I notice that being holy in a pastor’s life IS important according to the Word of God but I believe you said it was just a great word that you believe in but they are not as important as “righteousness”. The Bible also says that a pastor should be temperate. So where do these come into play in your “idea” of things?
Since love is the new law and Jesus said to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength, mind and soul and love your neighbour as yourself,” when do you love the Lord your God? Is it loving the Lord your God by putting things in your mouth then taking them out again and getting the youth to take it into their mouth? Is it wiping peanut butter on your underarms and having the youth lick it off? Does this honour and glorify God in every thing you have done. 1 Cor 10:31, “Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do ALL to the glory of God.”
Is the reality that you are not happy over what is being said about your friends and you will use whatever means you can to make your point. This is how it looks to me, anyway. Do you equate yourself to Jesus? It sure sounds like it to me. Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead, made the blind to see, etc. and I am to understand that this means Jesus “would have been classified as a circus act, or frills” according to foreveraltered?
My, my…I begin to see that maybe those people who do such things love to blame Jesus as having done it so they can continue to do it. I sure do hope I’m wrong! Or do you think that discipline is only another show of hate and bitterness? Funny how people think the only way you can love is by being quiet and letting everyone do anything and everything they want regardless of what God says in His Word. Well, I don’t expect that what we have said will change your mind any more than what you have said will change our minds. As I’ve heard on many occasions, “A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.” So, instead of trying to convince us otherwise, it’s probably a great idea to let it go.
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“…we cannot throw out the principle of making people the focus instead of the flawed, human interpretation of the law…”
But we can throw it out because if people become the focus then we have lost the proper focus! God is always the focus…not people. Some plant, some water but GOD gives the increase! No matter how much you want people to get saved, they won’t unless the Holy Spirit draws them to Himself!
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I’ve finally had a chance to read through this thread, but before I comment, I want to first say ‘spot on’ to Lyn for this quote:
Let me begin by saying that comparing the sharing of the Gospel at a golf course or a football locker room with that of the man-made office of a “youth pastor” is like comparing the sharing of the gospel in a coffee shop, Mosque, mall, or internet blog, to that of a temple prostitute. One is a “location” where the Great Commission is being conducted where a Christian happens to be at the time, the other is a “position in a church” that’s not sanctioned by the Word of God, but created by man.
This dishonest comparison must stop. It’s like apples and oranges. Argue the need for a youth pastor all day, but don’t argue the validity of it from a negative (e.g. the Bible doesn’t say missionaries should use airplanes to get to other countries to preach the gospel so thus, creating an extra-biblical position within the church which replaces the command for parents to teach their kids must be ok if modern day missionaries ride airplanes).
The next argument that needs to be addressed is the excuse that since parents aren’t doing their jobs, then this necessitates the need for a youth pastor. Riddle me this: Since parents didn’t stop doing their job just in the last century but many parents have always failed at this throughout history, how did the church ever get by for the last 1900 years without youth pastors? How did all the Law and Commandments get taught to the youth in OT times? Where was the “youth rabbi” doing stupid tricks to get the kids to fear God and follow His commands?
We don’t see it because it doesn’t exist. Appealing to the lowest common denominator using lowbrow antics to attract youth to the church is a modern tradition (coming about within the last 100 years). Not only are these gimmicks making the problem worse, but it’s not our job to attract an unregenerate person to a Christian church service. It’s the job of the Holy Spirit to convict the sinner of His sin by the preaching of the gospel (no peanut butter needed). The sinner becomes born again then desires to fellowship with the local body of believers. This whole way of doing church in America is backwards from the get go.
Also, the argument that we’re losing kids from the church because what we’re doing isn’t working is not entirely correct; partially, but there’s more to it.
I submit for your consideration that we’re losing kids from the church because we’ve failed to preach the Gospel to them instead of quaint little moral Bible stories about David and Noah, and that the current youth exodus has only increased with the advent of the absolute foolishness that these youth pastors of today are engaging in.
Let me be brutally honest with those of you here that are defending (either directly or indirectly) this foolishness done in the name of “reaching youth.”
For all those who are judging these youth pastors by saying they truly love Jesus, and for all of you judging these kids by saying that they got saved during this or that youth group, please stop. You do not know their hearts anymore than you know anyone else’s.
I have been around long enough to see that professions of faith are a dime a dozen, and that the real proof in the pudding is a changed that can be observed over a substantial period of time, not just till little Johnny goes off to college. Anyone can act or behave like a Christian for a season, but in the long run, what happens to them?
I suggest before you make judgments that these kids are saved and provide them with false assurances by pronouncing them saved (instead of urging them to first count the costs, then examine themselves daily), that you check out their lives 5, 10, 15 years from now.
I know, I was a member of a youth / young adults group in several churches and I was a false convert for 16 years; 9 of which I spent away from church.
I wish someone took the time with me back then to encourage me to examine myself by the Word of God. It would have saved me over a decade and a 1/2 of heartache. And where would I have been had I died in the interim?
It is only by the grace of God that I am His today; nothing of my doing, and He saved me IN SPITE of my youth groups.
I hope that I did not come across as being angry or upset in this comment. I assure you that I am not. I’m just impassioned about this because of what I have seen and continue to see around me all in the name of “reaching the youth.” I am confident that these little goat shows are doing far more harm than good in the eternal. They may fill seats in the youth group today, but where will those kids be tomorrow?
I know this isn’t going to change the pro-youth group crowd’s stance and this whole argument will simply go ’round and ’round and ’round. But I have seen both sides of this debate in action and I’ve resolved to stand firm that my kids will not be educated by the government’s schools and they will not be taught about God by a church youth group. There’s too much evidence statistically and experientially that both are complete and abject failures.
Respectfully,
– The Pilgrim
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The Pilgrim,
For the record, you didn’t come across angry. I understand where you are coming from yet there is hypocrisy in what you just said. You can’t tell me (or others) to stop making judgments about whether or not these kids are saved and then turn right around and make a judgment that they are not saved.
It’s not a dishonest argument. It’s not an matter of location, its a matter of using an “unscriptural” method to share the gospel with people. This overall argument isn’t so much about the office of a youth pastor as it is the methods they use.
And what’s funny is that you were a goat who had been convinced that you were a sheep for 9 1/2 years. My wife and I both have the exact opposite story as you. We were both eternally changed by the ministry we received in our respective youth ministries. We both lived pure, loved God, honored our parents, and still walk with God 20 years later.
Sorry, you just can’t tell me that youth ministry can’t make a positive difference in people’s lives. It does. I am the fruit of it. And I am not a fan of the public school system, but there are a lot of people that would disagree with the statement that you can’t be educated in public schools. Even quite a few that made major positive contributions to society.
In the end I agree that this is just going to go round and round though.
Desert,
You really set me straight. Unfortunately, nothing you said is any different than anything that anyone else said. You all seem very smart, yet you don’t seem to get it.
I’m not going to waste any more of my time going through your post point for point, because all that will happen is that you will pull out the quotes that you have a comeback for, and ignore the rest.
I have done nothing but give Biblical context for my point, but since it disagrees with your argument you guys seem to ignore it.
My intention was never to convince anyone of anything. That would obviously be futile. Everyone here already knows everything there is to know about God, the Bible, and doctrine.
I have a very basic problem with the very last thing you said – “God is always the focus…not people.” The problem with that is that if God loves people (which is a fact that no one here has been bold enough to agree with yet), then focusing on God will lead to a love for people. And that pretty much sums up my entire point from the beginning.
Alright, I appreciate the discussion, but I have to go and convince some goats that they are sheep again. I’m going to proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ to people. Too bad “gospel” doesn’t mean bad news. I’m sure somebody here can enlighten me on how “good” actually means “bad”.
One last thing before I go. The reason that I said that to the NT believer “righteousness” is more important than sanctification and holiness is because of Romans 14:17-18 which says, “For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.”
I am a citizen of God’s Kingdom. I choose to be pleasing to God.
And because all through the NT Paul talk about how righteousness is a gift from God that we receive through faith in Christ. It isn’t earned. It’s given. Which means that it isn’t a work of the flesh.
Ok. Off to deceive the masses.
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Dear CJ:
Firstly, I don’t understand the need for the sarcasm, but if that’s the tone you want to bow out with, then so be it.
Secondly, you missed my entire point on the “judgment” comment. I may have not made it clear which may have led to the misunderstanding, so let me clarify: I do believe we can “judge.” In fact we are encouraged to and commanded to. My point was that those who are quick to tell others not to judge (if it’s negative), are equally as quick to judge others (if it’s positive). I was actually pointing out the hypocrisy of others in their misapplication of Matthew 7:1.
CJ, God can–and does–save people in spite their circumstances. I never said God is incapable of using a youth group to save someone.
What I am saying is that not only is the concept of youth groups an unbiblical model–and a fairly modern one at that (like we now know better than those throughout 6,000 years of human history on how to teach our kids about God ), it’s very existence is antithetical to God’s purpose for the father, the family, and the church. So if one uses a method that is against Scripture and God’s intended purposes, don’t be surprised why so many kids are leaving the church. But God can still save people in those situations not BECAUSE OF youth group, but IN SPITE of it.
Additionally, I never said that people “can’t be educated in public schools” (an assertion you attributed to me), but I did call the secular government education an abject failure. I suppose it all depends on what you categorize as success or failure in an educational institution.
I am a product of government schools, and although God did not institute a godless governmental form of age-segregated education, I was a part of it and God spared me from its indoctrination IN SPITE of my attendance, not BECAUSE of it.
And finally, your account of being saved in a youth group is great and to be rejoiced about. However, I can tell you that in my experience including over 16 years, several different churches of different denominations, on two coasts, the overwhelming, undeniable reality is that youth groups are churning out false converts like Peeps churns out those marsh mellow rabbits and duckies just before Easter.
Research confirms this as well as my recent perusal on such places as FaceBook and MySpace. Looking at the current lifestyles of those I went to youth group with has grieved me. Their lives depict anything but a regenerated saint persevering till the end. It is heartbreaking to see that so many that were considered so strong in the faith are now posting for all the world to see their drunken debauched lives. Apparently I wasn’t the only one walking around thinking I was saved. In fact, to date, I am the only one that I know of still in the faith. Those are not good statistics, CJ, and it just confirms the research being done on this subject. Your case is rare, CJ, and it will become even rarer as youth leaders sink deeper and deeper into the world and its culture to appeal to the youth.
After all, when a kid shows up at a youth group and sees that everything being done in the name of God is just a cheap imitation of the world slapped with “Christian” on it, why do they feel they need what Christianity has to offer? Eventually they all just return to the world (with a few exceptions of course) more a son of Hell than before.
I exhort you and all the youth pastors out there to drop the 50-year failed experiment, return to the preaching of the Word, and the expositing of the Scriptures for the growth and edification of the saints, and for the conversion of the unregenerate. For it is not the latest youth program, the coolest youth pastor, or the sickest gross-out game that is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
Sincerely,
– The Pilgrim
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Desert Wife,
“But we can throw it out because if people become the focus then we have lost the proper focus! God is always the focus…not people. Some plant, some water but GOD gives the increase! No matter how much you want people to get saved, they won’t unless the Holy Spirit draws them to Himself!”
I understand where you are going with this, however I completely disagree with what this statement implies. If our PERSONAL salvation was the end all of our purpose then our continued existence would be in heaven (God would pluck us up upon salvation). If HIS focus is on people, should not ours be also? There are so many scriptures defining our position as disciple makers, seeking the lost. Agreed that in ourselves we can save no one, however to think that God doesn’t use us in the process is incorrect.
I am thankful every time that I get to be a ‘part’ of the process, knowing that it is not ME who can save anything, it is God. Shouldn’t the number one focus of the very existence of all that is good in our lives be our focus too?
So in love with HIM….
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“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” (2 Corinthians 5:20)
These youth ‘pastors’ have sullied the Lord’s Name.
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The mindset that I have known, displayed over and again by the church youth groups I have in the past worked with, is, in a nutshell: “The youth are our next generation of leaders. The world is in sorry shape. Too many kids are out there without Christ. How are we going to “reach them with the Gospel”. They won’t listen to us for two seconds if we push religion or church on them. So let’s get down on their level. Let’s get in their lives, love them, make “church” more of an “unchurch” experience for them, and they will change as they hear things about Christ in a non-threatening environment.”
It’s human reasoning. It may on the surface sound logical. But it is not biblical reasoning. Nor is such a pattern displayed anywhere in the Scriptures. And the fruit born does not, for the hundreds I have personally known, show truly transformed lives into Christlikeness.
The examples given above in this original post should reveal to any sensible person some of the offensive behavior that takes place under the pretext of “getting down on their level”. What is the inherent difference between predigesting food, spitting it back into a cup and making others drink it, and defecating in a bowl and making others eat it? At what point do we say, ENOUGH! At what point does it become obvious that we are just catering to the vilest, grossest, appeals to the flesh of the unsaved, under the thinly veiled excuse that we are trying to “reach them for Christ” or “being relevant”? Where is “being relevant” in this manner taught anywhere in God’s word? And they insist that is love? What love is there in that (either for God and His righteousness, or for the person)? What part of “make no provision for the flesh” (Rom.13:14) don’t people understand?
God has given His word for our instruction and guidance. We have seen what happened over and again when man attempts to do things his way, even if “for God and His glory”. We have seen the Israelites utterly fail at Ai, when they charged in without God’s approval. We have seen what happened to the sons of Aaron who attempted to worship God in a way He has not approved. We have seen what happened at Korah’s rebellion. God’s word is specific and detailed that we do things God’s way or reap the consequences.
We look back at the followers of Jim Jones and say, how could people have been so blind? How could they have followed a man to do whatever he asked them? Yet this very day, there are church pastors, and youth leaders, in positions of authority, claiming to represent Christ, saying they “love Jesus”, committing the vilest behavior, seemingly devoid of any conscience, and people blindly doing as they are led. Worse yet, there are people who vigorously defend them, condemning those of us who would, out of love, warn God’s people to be wary of them, falsely accusing us of being “unloving”! Outrageous!
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CJ,
You said “You sound like Bill Clinton trying to define the word “is”. take “so” out but you can’t take “love” out. He showed His LOVE by going to the cross. When He was smitten with His creation He flooded the earth and took everyone out. When He died on the cross it was to demonstrate His love toward us. Romans 5:8.
“He did miracles because he had compassion on people.”
The little adverb, “so” is “so” (adjective) important.
God’s love is main God centered, not man centered. It’s not as though God has need of man or anything man can do.
He flooded the world when He was angry, not smitten (context, once again, is important).
The salvific love of God that is demonstrated by and given to us by Christ is toward His elect – not the whole unredeemed world. The common grace shed upon all men represents a type of love God has for everyone. It’s not the same as His redemptive grace and the special love He has for His elect.
And nothing man can do can shift a person from being spiritually dead to elect, much less to spiritually alive.
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Another thing occurs to me: If we are, as parents, warning our child not to stick a fork in a light socket, do we smear peanut butter on ourselves, use puppets, chew up a mixture of dog food, sardines, potted meat, sauerkraut, cottage cheese, and salsa, topped off with holiday eggnog -and then spit out the mixture into a glass and encourage him to drink it?!?
NO! We don’t. We give him truth and warn him of danger.
TRUTH AND PROTECTIVE WARNINGS!!!
Same with the Gospel: The Message is LIFE SAVING!
Don’t turn it into a game.
‘CAUSE IT ISN’T A GAME.
PERIOD.
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Pilgrim wrote:
I concur and also encourage CJ and all to focus on the Biblical model whereby the youth (as well as the body at large) are to learn from elders. Elders who have wisdom and years of experience that cannot be learned in seminary or by reading the latest and greatest book. Wisdom you will most assuredly not find in some hip 20-something pointy hair styling “youth pastor” who still has zits and lives with his parents. Honor the elderly in the body of Christ, find Godly men and women and sit at their feet, listen, learn and you will do well.
“He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.” (Prov 13:20)
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brother Michael:
“Honor the elderly in the body of Christ, find Godly men and women and sit at their feet, listen, learn and you will do well.”
Sound counsel indeed. The older I get, the more I find the wisdom in honoring and obeying the God given plan of learning and benefiting from the elders in the faith. Not “elders” in the sense of some 40, 50 or 60-something guy who is elected to fill a slot in the “elder board”, but “elder” as someone seasoned, mature in the Faith, and who fills the biblical qualifications. When we get away from God’s ordered plan, we have chaos, destruction, disintegration.
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foreveraltered,
I am in total agreement that discipleship is important. In fact, on my blog I have posted about older women teaching younger women (Titus 2) and I have stressed how important it is. I find, however, that no matter how much I want to disciple people it will NOT happen unless the Lord allows me to do so. Once again we are back to keeping our focus on the Lord instead of people. You can’t force people to sit there and listen to you disciple them. I have learned that I must leave it in the Lord’s hands or I will make a mess of it. This is why it is so important to focus on the Lord and not on people. Yes, I disciple people when the Lord provides them but I cannot plant myself in front of everyone and say, “Ok, I’m going to disciple you…like it or not!” I tried that when I was quite a bit younger in the Lord and made a huge mess of things! I felt then that it was important to focus on discipling the people so they would be strong Christians and learn to disciple others! I found that it didn’t work that way and I only ended up frustrated because I wondered how come they couldn’t see the realities of discipleship. The Lord brought me to a point where I had to step back and look at Him instead of the people because I wasn’t God and they wouldn’t change unless the Lord changed them. I could teach the whole Bible to them and still there would be no change without the Lord doing the work.
Just because God’s focus is on people does NOT mean ours should be on people. In fact, if you keep your focus on people instead of God you will end up discouraged, angry and maybe even bitter because people will let you down. You will also begin to find that the TRUTH goes out the door because “people” cannot change you to become more like the Lord Jesus Christ. Our focus, no matter what, should be the Lord Jesus Christ and, as He opens the door, then we disciple whoever He brings into our lives as long as they are willing to listen. If we keep our focus on Him then we are continuing to change, grow and become more like the Lord Jesus Christ.
I also am thankful that I get to be a part of people’s lives and help them to grow in areas through discipleship but that is not the end of all things. The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. 1 Cor. 10:35; Ps. 73:25, 26. If you focus on anything other than God then you have made that thing a god in and of itself. When you focus on God then, in His timing and His way, He brings into your life the people to disciple, the things you are supposed to do, the trials and tribulations (etc.) that help you to grow and become more like Him! No, God is to be the focus no matter what happens in our lives.
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I think sanctification and holiness are great words. I believe in them whole heartedly. I also think that for a NT believer the word “righteousness” is more important.
Well, that’s a start. But how does having people lick peanut butter off your armpits teach anybody about righteousness? How does chewing up food, spitting it into a glass and asking people to drink it lead one into sanctification and holiness?
See, the problem for many youth “pastors” is this: they know nothing about holiness. And without holiness, no one can see God. Those aren’t my words, those are the words of Scripture. Hebrews 12:14–Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
You mentioned in your earlier comment So, if we need to head out to the neighborhood and present the gospel to lost people in a way that they can understand it, then I guess I don’t see anything wrong with that. And how does licking peanut butter off someone’s armpit accomplish that? Yes, we do need to present the gospel in a way people can understand. But in the 5 years I have been teaching Bible study in the projects, we have never had to stoop to those kinds of indignities to teach people the truth. If you are just real with people, showing them the truth in love, they will respond. Or maybe they won’t. But to incorporate the kinds of things these guys are doing is a disgrace to the true church. Sorry, but it is.
Let me finish with this scenario: A teenager lives with his parents who drink and fight all the time. They are about to get a divorce. He is angry and bitter at the world, and he acts out that bitterness by running with a bunch of juvenile delinquents, smashing windows and spray-painting everything in sight. He has no hope for the future. Then a kid at school gets to know him and invites him to his church. The troubled youth has heard of Jesus, and thinks this may be where he can find hope.
But when he walks into the church, he sees a bunch of men who are supposed to be acting like adults, and they are playing all these stupid gross-out games. The youth looks around at the nonsense going on around him, and thinks “These people aren’t any different than anyone else. this ‘church stuff’ is a bunch of bull. I’m outta here.” He walks out the door, sulks down the street, into an alley. The one chance he thought he had of ever finding hope–and he found no hope, just a bunch of men who never grew up. He puts his gun to his head and pulls the trigger, never knowing Christ. Now, are all these stupid games “worth it?”
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The Pilgrim,
I apologize for the sarcasm. That is not how I want to bow out.
About the whole “judgment” thing… All I was saying is that it’s hypocritical to tell me that I can’t judge that someone is truly converted and then turn around and say “undeniable reality is that youth groups are churning out false converts”. Using your own logic, that’s impossible for you to determine since “you do not know their hearts anymore than you know anyone else’s.”
I want to say that I appreciate what everyone has said here. I really do. For the record, I want to say that I haven’t condoned what these youth pastors did in the original article.
My main point was, and still is, that in spite of their shenanigans, they actually do preach the truth to the kids in their church. That’s all. I know that some of you choose not to believe that is possible. I’m okay with that.
THE PILGRIM said that God saved kids IN SPITE of youth group not BECAUSE OF it. Everything God has ever done has been IN SPITE of man’s sin, rebellion, ignorance, and disobedience. But thank God for His forgiveness and grace. Everyone here is lost without it… including myself.
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@ CJ
Doubt you will read this, but….
God can always save people “in spite of”, but that doesn’t make the actions of these youth pastors right. There is definitely ways to draw in youth that is okay, but using gross out tactics definitely goes against the Bible. And while God can and does work in spite of these things, this does not make those actions right to begin with. Quite the opposite, it only punctuates our inadequacy and God’s grace. Most of those children wont be “saved”, though I cannot judge their hearts, we can judge their actions and that more than anything shows where someone’s heart is at, and even God at times, can give us insight in to someone’s heart, so while we cannot judge someone’s salvation state, God can show us. Regardless, the point is, those tactics are still very unbiblical and pastor’s who used them do need to have a serious heart to heart with God. I can attest that a lot of times I have “good” ideas that I think are from God and have acted on them, but even if there was a few good results, in the end because I want to do what God wants, I usually realize I acted presumptuously and repent. None of us are Holy by nature, we all need to surrendur our fleshly nature to God each every day and check every single action against the entire context of God’s word, not just one verse, chapter, or book. And when we do that, it really keeps us from following fanciful notions and ideas or doing gross out things.
All this article did was make me sick to my stomach and want to cry.
God Bless ~Amy
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Amy,
I think if you go back and read all of my entries concerning this article, you will find that I agree with you about the fact that what they did was wrong. I wouldn’t do it, and I wouldn’t recommend that anyone do it either.
There were people writing on this blog that said that youth ministry is bad, that it produces false converts, etc. That was said in the same post that suggested that it was impossible to determine whether someone was truly saved. Don’t you think that it is wrong to say that it’s impossible to know, then strongly state that youth ministry produces false converts? How would you know? You wouldn’t.
As far the “in spite of” statement…. Again, someone said here that the fact that my wife and I both received Christ through our respective youth ministries was God moving in spite of youth ministry, not because of it. My point is that everything that God has done has been in spite of a man or a woman’s inadequacies. Every message ever preached has been laced with the fallibility of man who was preaching it. Yet, God moved on people’s hearts.
As I said, I agree that the stupidity in this article is gross and unnecessary. I also know that because of it, all youth ministry is not bad, all youth pastors are not idiots, and there is the possibility that there can be fruit from a ministry that has made even the worst mistakes.
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I am in utter horror and disbelief! How can anyone say they are not surprised by this?! I am shocked! I’m not from America, so perhaps in America this is more common? I am speechless.
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