Roman Catholic Mysticism and the Emerging Church Reexamined

A very important presentation by Richard Bennett from Bearean Beacon given to an audience in London about Roman Catholic mysticism and its promotion by the Emerging/Emergent Church.  From the YouTube posting we read:

Mysticism attempts to gain ultimate knowledge of God by a direct experience that bypasses the mind. Catholic mysticism, now officially married to the Emerging Church, needs to be reexamined. Old-time mystics such as Loyola, Teresa of Avila, and John of the Cross need to be examined again along with modern so-called evangelical mystics such as Richard Foster. All of this, and more, is accomplished in this professional presentation along with graphic inserts of persons and events. An analysis is also made of Phyllis Tickle who has surfaced as a formidable leader of this toxic movement. The fall from power of Tony Jones, a former leading light of the movement, is also documented.

Please watch to get educated on this critically important subject and share with others.

39 thoughts on “Roman Catholic Mysticism and the Emerging Church Reexamined

  1. This so-called definition of Mysticism is simply and historically untrue, at least from the standpoint of Christian mysticism, and that of both the R. Catholic and the E. Orthodox Churches, as well as that of the Anglican Church, that sees this truth and discipline. And thus in reality, a science dealing with the Christian life of grace is necessarily theological. As is the Mystical Body of Christ itself, and this is also a doctrine characteristic of Augustine’s theology also.


  2. Irishanglican – Your answer confuses me. You watched the video and disagree with what Mr. Bennett said? How do you define “Christian” mysticism, who are its founders, and what are the practices?


  3. brother Michael,

    It reality Christian Mysticsm is simply Christ, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” (Phil. 1:21) St. Paul is one of the most profound Christian mystic’s! See, also his Gal.2:20.


    Sadly, you are the one that does not see the “Body of Christ” (1 Cor. 12: 12-27), and what we call the Mystical Body of Christ also.

    Fr. Robert

    *In reality (Michael)


  4. irishanglican,

    Joyfully, I do not see what the apostates call “the Mystical Body of Christ”, for such is the nature of departing from the Truth of the Word – to see what is not there, what is based on the vain imaginations of man.


  5. It seems to me like the Pent/Charis movement and the mystical movement all have a lot in common. They all seek experiences outside of Scripture and then interpret Scripture by those experiences. Could that be a common thread that brings them all together?


  6. Manfred,

    Thankfully, only God in Christ can judge or know the elect of God, and not men. But we can in the Church “joyfully” confer somewhat who the elect of God are, based upon the “fruit” of the Spirit of God however.

    Again the “mystical” Body of Christ, are simply those who have come to that biblical reality of “metanoia” (repentance) and have by faith and experience know that work of God within (metanoia) ” a transformation of the heart & mind”…”In Christ”!


  7. The video is not talking about the “mystical” body of Christ but about Loyola in part and his “spiritual” exercises as well as those in the Emergent church promoting such things and doctrinal offshoots. This is the topic at hand.


  8. Michael,

    As to Loyola and Ignatius, the Jesuits have had some great men of God. But generally the order has been devoted to the conversion of infidels and to counteraction against the Protestant Reformation in the past. And in Pascal’s time their battle with Jansenism within Catholicism (Port-Royal, etc.).
    As I have noted, the Jesuits have had some great Christian minds, etc. Von Balthasar (died in the 80’s) had been an early SJ, but left them. Today the RC scripture scholar Raymond Fitzmeyer is a SJ.

    As to their Spiritual Exercises, they are classic within asceticism, almost understood in a military sense. (I was a Royal Marine officer myself, Gulf War 1, etc.). As they relate to the “emergent” church, this is perhaps seen in books and works by Richard Foster, etc. And for what its worth, Augustine wrote the first monastic rule in the West, and it centered around the Mystical Body and life of Christ therein.

    Fr. R.

    PS..Michael, I was not a chaplain then either…Recon officer. Part of my life experience. And fought closely with the American Marines F. Recon and their Intell…Semper Fi!


  9. Greetings Irishanglican,
    Thank for your response; much appreciated. What I have to say in reply is that I’d be hard pressed to find “great men of God” amongst the Jesuits regardless of their erudition and philosophical writings. Not that I am saying there may not be insights to glean from some words of theirs, but I honestly can say the same of others with whom I would strongly disagree with and denounce as teachers of false philosophical/religious systems. One simple example would be an evolutionist who speaks of the wonders of the bumble bee. Here, while I can agree with the true facts shared by the evolutionist about the bee, I must denounce the evolutionist as a false scientist because like the fool noted in Psalms 53:1, he/she says there is no God.

    Returning to our Jesuits, firstly, I reject them as producing any “great men of God” because the Jesuits are an order raised up, as you stated, specifically to counter the Reformation, destroy all of Rome’s opponents (the focus on Protestants and all holders to what we call the “doctrines of grace”), and return the “lost sheep” to Mother Rome under the supreme authority of the pope. Hence, if one is a Jesuit, their doctrine and life’s work is to fulfill the goals of the Jesuit order they pledged unfailing allegiance to regardless of whether they come with the right hand of fellowship, or with a Judas kiss.

    Secondly, I do not subscribe to the notion that there are any “great” men of God, but only a Great God and lowly men. This because even though in our eyes men may be deemed great due to their oration, scholarly writings and works of charity, in God’s eyes these things matter not. Because in God’s kingdom it is those who are least which are the greatest and it is those who are last that will be first. Something exemplified in the lowly widow who gave her only mite.

    Finally and most importantly, I reject the notion of Jesuits having produced any “great men of God” because I do not subscribe to Roman Catholic or Jesuit doctrine. It is anti-Biblical and anti-Christ and even if one ponders the deep things of God like von Balthasar and others did, if such a one holds to the foundational tenants of Catholicism such as Transubstantiation, Mary as the sinless mediatrix bodily assumed into heaven, prayers unto Mary and the Catholic “saints”, hierarchical priesthood, priests as mediators and forgivers of sins, the pope as head of the church, Roman sacramental system as the dispenser of grace alone only for salvation, purgatory, indulgences, baptismal regeneration, etc., then I must, by the Scriptures reject such a one and call them to repentance. This in spite of tomes written and accolades heaped upon them by the fawning religious community.

    The only Jesuit I could come close to calling great would be the one who believed on Christ alone and his finished work at Calvary for his salvation, rejected Catholicism’s unScriptural doctrines and would come out of Rome and the Jesuit order. Former Jesuit priest Bob Bush would be a perfect example.

    Returning to the spiritual exercises, yes, that is exactly true that they are ascetic in foundation which is a false doctrine found woven throughout Catholicism. That is, the more pain you suffer and even voluntarily inflict upon your body, the closer to God you will be as your sufferings are joined to those of Christ in adding new value to the sacrifice of Christ (see Catholic Catechism Para 1368, 1508, 1521). I need not say it but this is patently false and damnable.


  10. Michael,

    WE certainly are not going to solve or even dialogue on a blog that from from the start puts the whole Roman Catholic Church in the negative. We must ask ourselves what is the nature of the Church, salvation, grace, etc. We can see that with postmodernism all the Church has been hit hard. This includes yours also, whatever it is, and wherever it sits.

    I am not a Roman Catholic strictly speaking, but I was raised such. And I am now more within the Anglo-Catholic position. That would be a via-media place. Look at the Anglican Church history. But in general I would also see the doctrines of Augustine, in both biblical and theological places. But even there not exclusively. For no one has the truth of God canned! And most certainly not Calvinism. Though one can appreciate Calvin, though again he is hardly infallible.

    Any serious reader, and certainly one that is honest theologically will see that the theology of Pope Benedict has much truth in it. As Mike Horton himself has made statement. So this is not the middle ages, and that mind-set and mentality will simply not work in a Church age, that has many more enemies on the outside, than on the inside, or in house problems. Note the Church (in the West) had a Reformation, and not a complete reestablishment and remaking. This is hardly the truth. In fact the Churches that have gone that way are in reality the “emergent” mess and the novelity that there are sadly.


  11. Irishanglican,
    I knew of your stance on Catholicism from previous posts, so your reply is no surprise to me. Likewise, if you have read any of mine, I trust my words likewise did not catch you unawares.

    No, no one has all truth canned (to use your word), but if we do not have the doctrine of salvation canned and are believing in another Jesus and preaching another gospel, than according to Scriptures, we are anathama.

    The theology of Benedict may in fact have some truth in it like the evolutionist I referred to in my previous post, but this I would liken to how rat poison has some good food contained in it. I mean even Satan speaks a lot of truth when it serves his purposes only twisting a word here, or adding/deleting another there.

    Case in point is what he did with Eve in the garden or with the Lord of Glory during his temptation. Yet none of this changes the underlying truth that “He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”


  12. The saving Gospel of God, is indeed God’s and it is grace! And again, it is no mere formula.. or even theological proposition (of itself), but it is certainly Christ Himself! Again, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” (Phil. 1:21)

    If you have read any of my posts? You will know this, I am an incessant Trinitarian! And Christ is the eternal Son of the Father! “For through him (Christ) we both (Jew & Gentile) have access in one Spirit to the Father.” (Eph. 2:18)

    Are you ready to die for and in your faith? You better be, or it is hardly saving faith without such! For again, saving faith is a person, “Jesus (Savior), for HE will save His people from their sins.” (Matt. 1:21) And He is also the Son of Mary! (“For she will bare a son” – verse 21)


  13. irishanglican said:

    And He is also the Son of Mary!

    I knew Mary would be worked into your posts eventually.

    Catholics (whatever form they claim) start getting nervous when they perceive Jesus is receiving too much glory. They are compelled by the RCC indoctrination dwelling like a cancer in them to start swinging the pendulum back to Mary.



  14. Jeff H,

    Your ignorance and own personal indoctrination against “Catholic” doctrine comes forth. For I quote what is simply biblical, that Jesus is the Son of Mary as to his flesh in Incarnation. (See the history of the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, 431, that called Mary the Theotokos..God-bearer. This truth that Mary is Theotokos was proclaimed at the Council – Eastern by the way – against the heresy known as Nestorianism, which not only distinguished but separated the human and the divine nature of our Lord…heresy no doubt!) And Mary is no mere surrogate agent, but is also the place where the Lord of Glory Himself dwelt (9 months) and took his human nature, from the womb of Mary. The ignorance of many like yourself is both poor theology, and the bias and even hatred of the truth of God. No sir, you are the one in great deception here!
    Note Scripture, like Luke 1:45, as Mary called “blessed” here is in reality the first to believe! And hence too, “For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for HE who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.” (Lk. 1:48). Where is this being seen in many Christian places? That Mary is “Blessed”? Not it seems with your position. *Bigger sigh* No the place that Mary is given by both scripture and proper theology, is square middle in what we call “Christology”!


  15. irishanglican,
    It seems your replies get further and further from the previous topic. I am not debating your trinitarian doctrine nor that salvation is through Jesus who will save his people from their sins. What I was speaking to was Romanism and the lauding of Catholics who hold to anti-Biblical doctrine re. Jesus, the gospel, salvation and countless other areas.


  16. I have long believed that Mary would be embarrassed by those who worship her more than the God who created her. Mary was a mere person like anyone else, although she lived her life in such a way that she was prepared when God called on her to be the vessel by which the Savior of the world would enter the flesh. I love Mary, but just as much, I love Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Paul, John, Peter, as well as , Ruth, Jochebed, Esther, and on, and on. However, none including Mary, are to be worshiped. The time is now that we awake out of our sleep, stop following the traditions of men, open our hearts and minds to the revelation of God’s Word and live by it. I have come to realize that my own religion (denomination) has fed me lies (by my own tolerance). I did not leave my political party, it left me. I have not left God by leaving my denomination, it has left God. I am fasting from the false nurturing of the the organizations of today calling themselves “churches (denouncing them). Peter said, “We ought to obey God rather than man.” It is not about denominations, although I believe everyone of them has some mysticism going on.


  17. Michael,

    As I said, this debate must have some perimeters in dialogue. You attack the Roman Church on a wide base. We need to focus on something we can look at more closely. You attack the Roman doctrine of Christ? Which is something that the Roman Church holds well in reality, as to doctrine – In the hypostatic union, the union of the divine and human natures in the one person of Jesus Christ. The doctrine was elaborated by St. Cyril of Alexandria and incorporated in the Definition of the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (451). It is certainly biblical and a mainstay in orthodox theology. Most all true Christian bodies follow this teaching. So the R. Catholic position of the person of Christ is in reality spot on!


  18. Irishanglican,

    It’s all meaningless rhetoric my friend……..

    Justification by faith alone in Christ! Anything outside of that [whether it is the RCC, some Coptic’s etc etc] is anathema.



  19. irishanglican,

    Wow! I seem to have struck a nerve. I just see all of the devotion to Mary as robbing Jesus of His glory.

    Well, Mary is dead now, so at least Catholics don’t pray to her (necromancy), nor do they make statues of Mary, and bow down to them, and venerate them, and kiss them.

    Wait a minute… they do.


    5 Solas,
    – Jeff H


  20. Irishanglican,
    Please re-read my prior post where I clearly articulated the dividing line (at least for the point of this discussion), salvation. I said:

    No, no one has all truth canned (to use your word), but if we do not have the doctrine of salvation canned and are believing in another Jesus and preaching another gospel, than according to Scriptures, we are anathema.

    The Catholic religion is anathema because they preach another Jesus and another gospel. It really is that simple. Matthew Johnston stated it clearly – justification by faith in Christ alone. Christ alone through his ONE offering which needs nothing else added to it. Not a priest to call Jesus down from heaven so as to immolate him on their alter and re-present his sacrifice so Catholics can eat him body, soul and divinity like a Ritz cracker [God forbid!], not the prayers of the Catholics to somehow make his perfect sacrifice acceptable or give it more value, not their sufferings, offerings, or anything else.


  21. Jeff H

    No nerve struck for me, but you have failed to look at both the biblical and theological statements I have made. Not to mention the historical and Creedal reference. Did you even know that Calvin believed in the “Theotokos” of Mary? Oh yes…check the sources, do some homework here. Calvin also believed that Mary had one Son, Jesus!

    And I was a Reformed Anglican presbyter for many years. So I know all about the Solas. But in reality they are a reaction to the Roman Church. And when one looks at the better “Catholic” truth, the Solas do not stand the biblical test, at least in the long run theologically. They are time bound. And indeed since the Reformation, the Church Catholic has been “living” and also changing! And this is not just the R. Catholic, but also even the Reformed Evangelical Catholic. Thank God for the works of Karl Barth, himself within the Reformed history. Not to mention many Lutherans also. And oh yes, there are Christians outside of the American Reformed too. There are some very good Dutch Reformed theolog’s also. G.C. Berkouwer was one.

    No, you are sectarian sadly!

    And finally Mary dead? lol Not hardly, but like all of those in the Triumphant, Mystical Body of Christ, the Church in heaven..with the Risen Christ! (Heb. 12:1 / Rev. 5:11-12).



    You arguments against Rome are old and stale! You have got to look around, and read what both Rome, and those that are not Roman are saying. Again, your statements are simply ad hoc, and very poor theologically! The Church really has come aways since the Reformation. Try reading some Karl Barth to start. He really is a modern Church Father!

    And as Calvin said, real Justification is never really “alone”. But has the great work and reality of Santification in connection. See, Eph. 2:10 / Phil. 2:12-13

    Finally, I can see that you cannot really “do” theology mate. You have not stayed on your own topic…Catholic mysticsm, etc. I would myself, rather debate the subject of “Mysticism”. But this is just a negative, anti-Roman blog! I am near to being done here, if you care to try and really seek dialogue?


  22. irishanglican,

    Why don’t you enlighten us concerning the blessed mother and how she hears our prayers… even though she’s DEAD… and intercedes for us with God the Father, even though the Bible states: “I, the Lord, am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob” (Isaiah 49:26), and “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5)

    And, if you claim that Mary did not die, but was “assumed” into Heaven, well then you have another problem:

    Scriptures consistently link our redemption not to His pain, but to His death. Paul writes that “we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son” (Romans 5:10). The writer of Hebrews reminds us that “a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions” (Hebrews 9:15). John tells us that Jesus “released us from our sins by His blood” (Revelation 1:5).

    The reason, of course, is that the penalty for our sin is death (Genesis 2:17, Romans 6:23). A life, therefore, had to be given to redeem us.

    That is why Christ came: “to give His life a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45). Christ “died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God. . . .” (1 Peter 3:18).

    Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that we were redeemed by Christ’s righteous life, faithful obedience, or even His sufferings at the hands of cruel men.

    See the problem?

    YET… your “church” claims:

    “Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother’s rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind.” – – Inter Sodalicia

    This is blasphemy.


    “She it was who, immune from all sin, personal or inherited, and ever more closely united with her Son, offered him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father together with the holocaust of her maternal rights and motherly love… – – Mystici Corporis


    “…it was on Calvary that Mary’s suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world.” – – Salvifici Doloris

    What blasphemous drivel! This stuff would be LAUGHABLE, if it were not so damnable (as in: subject to or worthy of divine condemnation).

    Read your Bible.

    In fact, your “church” killed real Christians who DARED to own Bibles in their native language, instead of Latin, because the priests could no longer lord it over them.

    Pope “innocent” killed more Christians than any other mass persecution (of Christians) in history.

    The RCC has a bloody history… It’s all about power and greed, and is well recorded.

    The pope IS just a man. He is not God. He was conceived in sin… he commits sin every day (as do we all)… and he will likely die in his sins (all the while leading millions astray), because he did not trust in Jesus ALONE… Rather he trusted in his works to help his poor “wafer-god” to finish the work of salvation, which poor, weak “wafer-god” was unable to do itself.

    The popes’ utterances are the conflicting doctrines of men. I pity you for running yourself ragged in that squirrel cage, while I feast myself on God’s pure, unchanging, holy Word: The Bible.

    I will tell you what I tell JWs, Mormons, SDAs, Moonies, and those trapped in any other cult that has co-opted Christianity: Throw away all of the publications, doctrines, decrees, and dogmas of men, and read JUST the Bible.

    God’s Word, the Bible, contains everything God wants you to know about Him. Anything added by men is of man, and not of God. Man is fallen and fallible, God is not. Man is sinful, God is not. Man’s heart is exceedingly wicked, but God’s heart is pure.

    In Christ (alone),
    – Jeff H


  23. To all,

    We are witnessing a classic example of the second chapter of II Peter. “False teachers…destructive heresies…denying the Lord who bought them…many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the WAY OF TRUTH will be blasphemed…coveteousness…deceptive words…”

    Need I go on Irishanglican?

    Yes, let us continue: “the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation and to RESERVE THE UNJUST UNDER PUNISHMENT FOR THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT…despise authority…presumptuous…self-willed…speak evil of things they do not understand…and will utterly perish in their own corruption…” “They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their OWN DECEPTIONS while they feast with you…cannot cease from sin…”………

    The wickedness of all things Roman catholic will receive it’s just reward. It is impossible to serve the Lord Christ and be in league with the demons of catholism at the same time. And yes, the REAL Mary did have children by Joseph. But that does not fit the belief system of the mary that you have conjured up. One more question, Irishanglican, is it really your mary that is appearing in these apparitions all over the world?


  24. Irishanglican –
    Rome has changed; ok, sure; I guess you have bought the Vatican II window dressing. Funny though, I have Ott and Ratzinger (Catechism) in front of me and their doctrine of salvation is just as anti-Biblical as it was during the days of the Reformation. Baptism makes you a child of God, the Sacraments confer God’s grace, the Catholic church is the only true Church and means of salvation, Jesus is immolated on the Catholic alter and to be eaten body, soul and divinity like a cookie, Mary is the sinless intercessor for the church, purgatory purges sins, Masses remove sins, etc.

    It is ironic also how you patronize me with your “theology” slam but have offered no solid Biblical justification for your defense of Rome except to throw out a few theologians and council edicts. Won’t work here, I know Rome and your rhetoric, attack or diversions won’t change the reality of this damnable system. I mean I just buried my aunt and heard from the priest how she was in heaven because of being sprinkled as a baby and a member of God’s family, the Catholic church. Not considering the fact that she was as lost as the rankest infidel as is true for my family members who heard this message. If you don’t think this is damnable, so be it, but I do.

    Finally, about staying on topic, look in the mirror. You are the one who has taken it off course time and time again and were the one who came in to give your personal definition of Christian mysticism and promotion of Jesuitical “great men of God.”

    Dialog is fine if one honestly acknowledges the truth of Rome and that her doctrines are anti-Christ/anti-Biblical; if not and they gloss them over and whitewash them giving mama Rome a clean bill of health, than no, dialog is futile and we just as well end it here.


  25. Michael,

    Sadly this was a waste of time, neither you or your “correlates” even said a real word about my scripture texts, theology..or church history. And for the record, I do not support the whole of the papal doctrines, but I do not see Rome as the anti-christ, as you people. But again, we will all get to stand before the Lord, ourselves. And only the Lord knows HIS people! (2 Tim. 2:19 / Num. 16:5 / Isa. 26:13)


  26. irishanglican,

    My prayer for you, then, is you do not see the Lord turn to you, and hear Him say, “Depart from me… I never knew you.”

    Run to the Lord Jesus Christ while you still have time.


  27. Michael,

    As I wrote, the essence of being a Christian is simply, living and loving Christ! (Phil. 1:21) But I don’t see this in your doctrines, but I see judgment and an elite spirit. And this is most certainly not Christ-like! But I too pray for your soul before the Lord, who is Himself, the Light, Life and Love of God “Incarnate”!


  28. the ‘essence’ of being a disciple of Christ is to deny self, or die to self, pick up your cross, to the point of death if God ordains it, and follow Christ. To walk humbly with our God is what being a follower of Christ is; not longing for or desiring materialism and wealth of this world, but longing for our heavenly homes; longing for our reward…Christ.
    We are called to suffer, and all will, for Christ. We WILL undergo chastisement and trials as the Lord refines us; the world WILL hate us, our own families will hate us…this is the true truth God’s word teaches; not simply a life where we do whatever we desire six days a week, then one day a week we set aside an hour to hear about whatever ‘god’ religion/tradition dishes up.



  29. Irishanglican,
    Actually, you are incorrect as I did acknowledge in support the doctrine you were willing to voice re. your Trinitarian beliefs and salvation through Christ alone; this was never in debate so it was not focused on. I wrote:

    I am not debating your trinitarian doctrine nor that salvation is through Jesus who will save his people from their sins. What I was speaking to was Romanism and the lauding of Catholics who hold to anti-Biblical doctrine re. Jesus, the gospel, salvation and countless other areas.

    Yet you never gave an adequate answer nor clearly articulated your beliefs about the anti-Biblical doctrines of Rome I kept focusing on, most importantly those of salvation and the finished work of Christ. Rather, you mocked me by saying

    You arguments against Rome are old and stale!

    I replied by stating that the doctrines I noted were not old but were current per the Catholicism and current Catholic doctrine. Again, I listed these critical doctrines but got no substantive reply nor to my clearly stated belief that Rome preaches another gospel and another Jesus. This, regardless of what the Council of Chalcedon said on the person of Christ, or what Ephesus wrote about Mary.

    Instead, these specific doctrines and Romish beliefs were brushed aside like some meaningless doctrinal disputations that we need not discuss.

    And yes, the truth is loving Christ, the Christ of the Bible, not the one commanded to leave heaven by sinful priests to be immolated and sacrificed on the Roman alter so as to re-present his sacrifice, nor the one hanging defeated and dejected on the Roman crucifix, or the one locked up in the tabernacle or carried about in the Monstrance.

    The Jesus Irishanglican who is seated in the heaven at the right hand of God and does not obey the commands of men like some alter boy, but rather commands men everywhere to repent for he has appointed a day in which he will judge all nations.


  30. Michael,

    I could see that seeking to make any kind of Catholic statement would be met, as what I did write, with personal judgment and certainly no real Christian love. This is your blog, and it appears your fellows. Enjoy each others company and secure statements. But what if it is “you” who are wrong? I wonder if you have even considered that? No, there must always be some humility in even our best convictions of faith. Note, 1 John 4: 20…”If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a lair; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, CANNOT love God whom he has not seen.” Verse 21, “And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.”

    Loving our brother, does not mean consigning him to judgment and hell! This alone is God’s choice. And that includes Roman Catholics.


  31. Loving our brother, does not mean consigning him to judgment and hell! This alone is God’s choice. And that includes Roman Catholics.

    Does this “brotherhood” include faithful practicing Mormons and Jehovahs’ Witnesses? Why or why not?

    Any serious reader, and certainly one that is honest theologically will see that the theology of Pope Benedict has much truth in it. As Mike Horton himself has made statement.

    In Horton’s own words:

    There’s been some blog chatter about my having endorsed Scott Hahn’s Covenant and Communion: The Biblical Theology of Pope Benedict XVI. Since one blogger I read mistook my endorsement of a study of Benedict’s theology for an endorsement of his theology, I thought it would be worthwhile to draw that distinction in black and white. Continue reading here.

    In Christ,


  32. irishanglican,

    You arrived here breathing fire against biblical Christianity, and when you were then soundly rebuked – using Scripture – you cry “foul” and claim we hate you and are judgmental.

    We do not hate you. On the contrary, we wish to remind you how much love it takes to correct error.

    WE are not consigning you to Hell. Rather it is YOU who is climbing over us (as we implore you to heed correction) to reach the infernal gates.

    In Christian love,
    – Jeff H


  33. This was a very well structured presentation. Apparently its tone is one of that of warning. I don’t quite understand the fear demonstrated in this tone. I am admittedly biased, being that I consider myself both a Roman Catholic and an Emergent Church Movement enthusiast. However, I still think there is so much more in common among all Christians that I worry about these sorts of heedings and warnings. Who is the proper authority on these issues? Solo Scritura is a doctrine I never agreed with. After all, it’s the Roman Catholic Church which is most responsible for the structuring of the Biblical Canon we know now. So what gives? Please educate me if you feel my response is ignorant. I’ve met Brian McLaren and he appeared as a very thoughtful man looking to do good, not evil.


  34. Eddie G.

    There are so many presumptions in your post that it’s impossible for me to reasonably address them

    Let me exhort you to spend some time on this site and to better understand what appear “good” in folks such as McClaren and others is evil, properly understood.

    While it’s true that God used Roman Catholics to preserve His Word, the Roman Catholic Church did not determine the cannon of Scripture – God did and He revealed it to man.

    I recommend this review of history to provide one not dominated by the Roman Catholic Church:


  35. I have to say thanks be to God for His word that tells us of this falling away. It all so tells us of just one way to God and that is through His Son and the work of His death and resurrection.
    But these that are beguiled by this evil teaching show to me another thing the bible tells us, That the one who with his “working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,” is soon to appear and bring with him the hate of those who would preach the Righteousness that is found in Christ Jesus, the only way. Yes this is no more than the spirit of anti-christ, and it seems the whole world is running to him and his deception will be the ruin of them who believe such deceptions. Sadly I have even seen it of those who use to sit in the congregation of truth, only to see them spew the truth away from them with this trash.
    This would is fading fast and I am thankful to be witnessing the truth of Gods word. I can’t account for those who would adhere to this trash but I have given the testimony of the grace and faith that is in me of Christ Jesus.
    Those who would defend this are of the devil and will be the ones who soon will kill His witnesses and reap damnation on them selves for believing a lie. The same lie that the devil told Eve in the garden,”Yea, hath God said”is now being perpetrated by these who say the very same spiritual lie that was told then, the very same; and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    It is right out of the pits of hell and those who adhere to and preach this lie are of the devil and should be treated as such, for it is said; Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


  36. According to the Pope in this youtube video, the Catholics and Judaism have the same god. I agree, and pray they can find the true God, and leave behind all their self proclaimed religious “law”, self righthousness, and idolatry. It seems obvious to true Christians, but very difficult for those caught in this age old trap.

    The Catholics seem to have adopted even expanded on the fatal flaws of the Levites and Pharasees, even in dress.

    “Dialogue with Judaism is necessary and possible.”


  37. Eddie G:

    Your question is a valid one: “Who is the proper authority on these issues?” That is the foundational question that we must answer before we can go any further on spiritual matters. For until we determine that, all else is irrelevant.

    Years ago I was faced with a similar dilemma. I believed in God, and I wanted to go to heaven when I died. I had 3 choices:

    1) Wishful thinking. Maybe if I was “good enough”, God would be a “nice guy” and let me into heaven. Not a strong enough basis to stake my whole eternity on.

    2) Listening to men. But how could I know for sure who was right? Some arguments sounded better than others. Some say the bible says this, some say the opposite. Some claim to interpret it for you. Even heathen who did not believe in God had good arguments. Who was right? Still not enough to stake my eternity on.

    3) Accept what God Himself has said. Where was I to find that? After much investigation, the overwhelming evidence (historical, archaeological, fulfilled prophesies, etc.) was solidly on the Bible. If Jesus is God, I had better take heed to what He Himself has said. For He said I will be judged for all eternity by His word. And that’s really the bottom line.

    So, Eddie, you need to decide who you will accept as your spiritual authority. Will it be yourself? Will it be other men? Or will it be your Creator and His word He has left for you?


  38. Eddie G

    Actually the Roman religion was perhaps the most detrmined organization in history to keep the word of God away from the people and they did it in order to protect their own power base.
    As far as meeting Brian Mclaren; I met a high placed Catholic priest several times in my home town and he was a very a’nice ‘man It was a shock when he suicided after he was exposed as a paedophile .


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