It was two years ago (July 2008) that a Mormon named Keith visited us on a post regarding Faith and Works. During this discussion I tried to get Keith to explain how I could be saved if I only had a few minutes to live. Keith did a lot of talking (including changing the conversation, accusing me of trying to manipulate him, and accusing me of asking a trick question), but he never answered the question.

I decided to publish this discussion (with all of our typos) in this post to show you exactly how Mormonism advances “another” gospel; one that gives false hope to a dying man, if any hope at all.

You can check out the entire conversation (and how it began) by checking on the comments section of this post from December of 2007.

When you get to the end of the discussion, if you are still perplexed as to what one has to do to “be right with God” according to Mormonism, the answers are actually listed here: Requirements for Mormon salvation.

Enjoy the conversation.

_________________________________

The Pilgrim says:

Ok, Keith, here it goes:

It’s late at night.

You hear something at your front door.

You investigate.

You find me laying on your porch step covered in blood.

You see a blood trail where I dragged myself which leads to the street where fresh skid marks are present on the asphalt.

I was just hit by a car that sped off.

You call to your wife to dial 911 and you kneel down to offer any assistance that you can.

I only have a few minutes left to live (and by your estimation of my condition you know it’s true).

I’m in fear of facing God and I ask you one simple question.

“How do I get saved?”

You’ve got five minutes.

The clock is ticking . . .

– The Pilgrim

Keith says:

Ok, this is a trick question for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but this is what I will say. My dear friend you are not lost because God in his wisdom has made a plan for every one of his children. Your acceptance of Jesus Christ at this time will be to your great advantage and your sorrow and asking for forgiveness for your sins will be of merit for you. When you get to other side you will find that you still have an opportunity to learn of his work. Through the miracle of the restoration of the Gospel the Lord has made it possible that your baptism can still be done and you can upon meeting the requirements have the blessings of the Gospel in your life. Now Pilgrim, rejoice in the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ because it is through him that you will live again and receive his great blessings. I love him and I want you to know that I know that he lives and that through him you will be resurrected and can receive forgiveness of your sins and be accepted into his presence. Now should we pray together and ask for God to hear your plea.

As you know Pilgrim your understanding of the term of salvation and mine are different and just because we understand the same scriptures differently does not make me wrong and you right. I am interested in your reply.

1. fourpointer says:

   July 11, 2008 at 9:00 am (Edit)

   Keith,

   What you do not realize is that if that is what you tell the person in their last five minutes on earth, you have just allowed them to slip into Hell unsaved, they will stand before the Great White Throne, they will be judged to be unrighteous, and they will suffer in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Because once we die, there is nothing anyone can do for them.

   The saved, however–those who trusted in Christ ALONE for their salvation, and did so in this life, the only chance we have to do so–they will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (1st Corinthians 3:11-15; 2nd Corinthians 5:9-10). They will not be judged for salvation (that has already been established, or they would not be standing here), but their works will be tested by fire to determine the reward they receive.

   See the difference? At the Great White Throne, the people are judged by their works, whereas at the Judgment Seat of Christ, their works are judged by their worthiness.

   Here’s another thing to consider: Think about when God sent the fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people and the people died. God commanded Moses to lift up a brass serpent on a pole, so that whoever looked upon it would be saved. Now, suppose one person made a serpent out of stone, and another person made a serpent out of wood. They both lifted up their serpents, and called the people to look upon them. Would the people have been saved? No. Why? Because they would not have been doing as God commanded.

   This is the same today. We have the Catholic system, which is lifting up (as it were) a serpent of wood, Jehovah’s Witnesses lifting up a serpent of stone, and the LDS church lifting up a serpent of something else. Each of these is promoting salvation in a way that is contrary to what is written in God’s word. That is why we do what we do: to warn people to not follow these false systams.

   We do not do is out of hatred, but out of a genuine desire to see people saved, and to see God glorified.

2. The Pilgrim says:

   July 11, 2008 at 1:03 pm (Edit)

   Keith;

   I’m not quite sure what you mean by a “trick question.” What was the trick? It was an honest inquiry about what you would tell a dying man about salvation. And furthermore, what do you mean by it’s a trick question for members of LDS? You really lost me with that. It’s a question I’d ask anyone, LDS or not, who claims to have the “truth.” Don’t read more into than is there.

   It appears you’d take the easy approach and allow him/me to die in his/our sins forever damned based off a heretical twisting of Scripture by false Mormon prophets; never telling the dying man that he is appointed once to die, and then the judgment.

   So if I can gather correctly what you said, you {LDS} can offer me absolutely no help, yet Jesus could assure the thief on the cross salvation that very day. Instead of pointing the man on your doorstep to Life, you sputter LDS rhetoric. How discomforting.

   I appreciate your forthcoming in your answer. It reveals a lot about LDS teachings that most Mormons desperately try to hide: the absolutely stark night-and-day differences between biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

   So, I ask you again, how can I be saved?

   I’ve got four minutes left.

   – The Pilgrim

3. Keith says:

   July 11, 2008 at 9:52 pm (Edit)

   Fourpointer and The Pilgrim

   Thanks for your reply. The reason that it is a trick question is because your and my understanding of the word salvation does not match. We will never satisfy your desired results. I did not think you were trying to trick me but for and LDS person the question is wrong. And as I have said before one cannot get a right answer when asking the wrong question. If you understood my reply you would know that I am actually offering you more, but enough of this talk we are too far separated to make sense of it. Can we go the real question that separates us?

   Will you tell me why God does not have a living prophet in these latter days? Noting that he says he is … “the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever” (Heb 13:8). He also says “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secrets unto his servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). If God from the beginning of time set his pattern of having living prophets and an open cannon of scriptures, why not now in the most risky and troublesome time of the Earth? It makes no sense and says that God has changed. Man should be able to trust God to tell his prophets what we need to know and do in these perilous times. I know you will try to soothe the problem over with quotes that you have found to try to substantiate your lack of a living breathing prophet but the answer does not satisfy or meet the needs of man especially in this day of Satan’s great power, the deceptions and wickedness of the world.

4. The Pilgrim says:

   July 11, 2008 at 10:05 pm (Edit)

   Keith:

   Ok, so far, what I’ve gathered as I lay here dying, is that:
   1. I don’t need to worry about dying in my sins because I’ll get another chance after I die (in direct contradiction to Heb. 9:27).
   2. I wouldn’t be able to understand it all anyway because you define “salvation” differently than Christians.
   3. My genuine plea for help is a “trick question.”
   4. The more important issue at hand is whether or not living prophets exist today.

   Are you serious? This is how you’re going to answer a dying man who is seeking an answer from you for salvation? Forget how LDS “defines” salvation, for crying out loud, LDS has twisted the definitions of almost every single essential Christian doctrine imaginable and now you’re concerned about definitions? A dying man needs answers, not an admission that LDS has redefined Christian doctrines to suit their teachings.

   We both know LDS has changed meanings of Christian doctrines, and as much as I appreciate your honesty and conceding to this (many LDS try to portray otherwise) this is not what the dying man is asking of you.

   LDS and JWs are experts at changing the subject rather abruptly to a non-essential when confronted with something outside their ability to answer, but “how to attain salvation” shouldn’t be that hard to answer.

   I will permit Fourpointer to go down the path of distraction with you (if he so desires) and I imagine he’ll start with Hebrews 1:1-2, but as for me, the issue of “living prophets” is NOT that important right now.

   Remember, I’m the guy bleeding to death on your doorstep. The debate about living prophets mean nothing to a man about to die. The only thing a dying man needs to know is how to be forgiven of sin (to get right with God). I’m beginning to think I chose the wrong residence to seek help from. But it’s too late now.

   Sirens can be heard in the distance.

   I’m beginning to fade.

   Three minutes left.

   – The Pilgrim

5. Keith says:

   July 12, 2008 at 4:10 am (Edit)

   Hi Pilgrim

   I have answered your question and you are trying to manipulate me so that you can make me look like a fool but I know what you are doing. You have lived your life and will answer to God that is my answer. There are no such questions as you ask ever ask of our Savior or a prophet that has been recorded in scriptures that lead us to a definitive answer excepting that one must answer to God for his life. Your answer to your question never gives the poor millions who have lived upon this Earth without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ any hope but a forever life in Hell. That is not the way of a loving Father. He has provided a way for every single one of them. If not God is a respecter of persons which He is not as declared by His own voice. As I said one cannot get right answers if he is asking wrong questions. Will you not respond to my question? Why do we not have a living prophet upon the Earth?

   Respectfully Keith

6. fourpointer says:

   July 12, 2008 at 6:02 am (Edit)

   Pilgrim,

   It seems as though Keith is stuck in the LDS “victim” mentality, that we evil evangelicals are just out to persecute him and his beliefs. He has invented this idea that we are trying to “manipulate” him.

   Keith, you said, Your answer to your question never gives the poor millions who have lived upon this Earth without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ any hope but a forever life in Hell. That is not the way of a loving Father. He has provided a way for every single one of them.

   Those “millions” would also include the men of Sodom, the Babylonians, the Chaldeans, etc. All those in the Old Testament who knew about YHVH but worshipped a pagan god instead. All these, I guarantee, are still suffering in torment Hades along with the rich man in Luke 16, until they are all resurrected at the Great White Throne and cast into the Lake of Fire.

   Will there be many who never hear the gospel? Yes. Will they get a second chance? Absolutely not. That’s just how it is. He is a loving Father, but He is also a God whose justice is perfect, and we cannot dwell in His presence if we are still carrying our sins with us after we die.

   As far as Why do we not have a living prophet upon the Earth? We don’t need one. We have His written word, and we have the Holy Spirit (or, as some call Him, the Holy Ghost. They are one and the same.).

   But, I don’t expect you to answer this, since you didn’t answer my previous response to you (comment #14).

7. Tom J says:

   July 12, 2008 at 9:03 am (Edit)

   If Justification is only a declaration by God about the sinners status before God, and does not work an inward change, how can the sinner do sanctification?

8. The Pilgrim says:

   July 12, 2008 at 3:51 pm (Edit)

   Dear Keith:

   I know you may not believe me since it seems like you’re trying to convince yourself otherwise, but I am not trying to “manipulate” you or make you look like a “fool.” I am asking a simple question. I am affording you a golden opportunity to proclaim the Mormon road to salvation.

   You said, “There are no such questions as you ask ever ask of our Savior or a prophet that has been recorded in scriptures that lead us to a definitive answer excepting that one must answer to God for his life.”

   Really? I seriously urge you to consider putting down your JoD, your BoM, your PoGP, your D&C, and any other LDS church indoctrination material and begin reading your Bible ALONE! You may be surprised at just how many times the New Testament alone deals with the issue of how a man attains salvation (and no, not to become a god, but to be cleansed of our sins before a righteous and holy God).

   There are countless occasions in the Scriptures where the issue of salvation is addressed. Remember the Philippian jailer? What question did He ask? What was the purpose of Nicodemus’ visit to Jesus at night, especially in light of Jesus’ first recorded words to him the he must be born again.

   I could go on and on where Scripture deals with the very subject that you’re so desperately trying to avoid: justification, forgiveness, salvation, etc.

   You said, “That is not the way of a loving Father. He has provided a way for every single one of them.” Please provide chapter and verse to support this.

   You complain that, “Your answer to your question never gives the poor millions who have lived upon this Earth without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ any hope but a forever life in Hell.” What “answer?” I never got or gave an answer.

   And what’s even more frightening, Keith, is so far your replies to my question have failed to give the poor millions who are LDS any hope, but a forever life in Hell. How can one who can’t tell a dying man how to be forgiven offer any hope to a lost and dying world?

   Now to get back to my question, which I’ve tried to reword to accommodate your LDS definitions (which is a cruel thing to tell a dying man, “You’re trying to trick me, manipulate me, make me look like a fool.”):

   I’ve lost a lot of blood, now.

   I’ve never darkened the door of a church.

   I’ve lived a sinful life.

   In fact, I was crossing the street in front of your house to go sin some more when the car hit me.

   I’ve only got a couple moments left as I lay on your porch.

   Shortly I will slip into a Christless eternity in Hell for my sins.

   With every ounce of energy within me I utter, “Please help me sir, I don’t want to die in my sins, how can I be forgiven?”

   I’ve got two minutes left.

   – The Pilgrim

9. Keith says:

   July 19, 2008 at 5:07 pm (Edit)

   Pilgrim, fourpointer, et-al

   I am submitting the following analysis of your site and work. As I have read your site and experienced our discussion I had learned of how you work and what seems to be your goal.

   Your site is full of sophistry (a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but fallacious method of reasoning.) using several different methods to confuse the mind and control the conversation. You are very expert in the use of such tools.

   The first I will mention is one called piling (a mass of building piles to be considered collectively). This method is taking quotes out of context and pilling them up so that it confuses the mind. For example, you’re listing of many scriptural quotes from the Bible on the subject of faith. One quote used out of its context is no problem because a reader can remember its context or go read it and understand what the writer/speaker is expressing. Piling them up is sophistry. It allows you to give any meaning to the pile because the readers mind has become numb. Tyndale would be offended because he spent his life and gave his life to get the common man out of the grips of the clergy. He knew that if every home had a Bible they could understand their meaning without interpretation or manipulation of a clergy. You not only use this trick of control for your own believers but to denigrate other Christians. You do this by making multiple quotes out of context to make it so that there is no meaningful conclusion but your own. You further try to make any explanations meaningless by naming the type of arguments (out of context, manipulation etc) that show your error thus trying to destroy any reasoning that opposes your position. These are very clever tools of sophistry.

   There is more. You use terms like “natural extension” to arrive at conclusions. Like your “sex” of God and Mary. You scintillate and sensationalize for your demeaning propose of denigrating (to speak damagingly of; criticize in a derogatory manner; sully; defame, to treat or represent as lacking in value or importance; belittle; disparage ). No such meaning can be had without your “natural extension”. You tried to use this on me in our early discussion and I caught you in your trap. It is common in your site.

   You do a very interesting thing in justifying yourselves with strong words in denigrating other faiths. You quote the words of our Savior as He condemned the Sanhedrin for their desire to destroy Him and His work. He did not attack there religions which were protestant to the ways of the Lord through the prophets. He only exposed their hearts as He knew, that they, would have Him crucified and kill His prophets as they had already done. Your denigrating is more like the Sanhedrin than the methods of the Savior. They were trying to protect themselves and their position and not promoting the work of God. This advice from Acts 3 would be wise for you also. “38 And now I say unto you, refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.” Remember one cannot do God’s work using Satan’s tools.

   I asked the question “Why do we not have prophets today?” and your answer was very close to that of the Sanhedrin “They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.”(John 8:39) These are the words they used to say that they have no need of more prophets or words from God. They thought what they had sufficient. God has never said we have enough. In fact he said that before the second coming there would be a “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:19-24) meaning that things have been lost and need to be restored.

   The most amazing thing you said was in response to my question about the millions who never had a chance hear the name of Jesus was: “All these, I guarantee, are still suffering in torment Hades along with the rich man in Luke 16, until they are all resurrected at the Great White Throne and cast into the Lake of Fire”. I am sorry but you and I do not worship the same God. Do you realize what you are saying? That means that all little children who die are consigned to Hell. These are innocent children of God who are incapable of making a sound decision. It means that an estimated over 25% of Gods children (several billion) have no chance of ever receiving any hope of the very purpose of this Earth. That makes God worse than all despots put together. They after all could only take the life of the people but God is confining them to “the Lake of Fire” forever. Where is the justice or mercy in that? Where is the Grace? How is this a God of Love? I am appalled at such doctrine and say that I can not worship your god.

   There are more tactics that I could mention but enough is enough. I want to invite all who are serious minded truth seekers to make a test. Read this site and then go to http://www.lds.org (or the official sites of the Catholic Church or the Jehovah Witnesses whom this site denigrates) and read on that site. The Holy Spirit (also known as the Holy Ghost) has promised to let all who are honest in heart to know what is truth and what is not. After reading if you feel inspired, uplifted and the Peace of God then you will know you have found truth. If you feel confused, cold or contention then you know the source of that information. I want to tell all who read my words that I know by the witness of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ and the only way to God and fulfillment of the purposes of this Earthly experience. In the name Of Jesus I speak my witness.

   Keith

10. The Pilgrim says:

    July 19, 2008 at 7:22 pm (Edit)

    Wow, Keith. You will spare no expense to avoid a simple question on how your faith (which I certainly agree–you’re worshiping a different “god”–I won’t argue with you there) saves a man.

    Talk about “where is the love, mercy and grace“? You have an opportunity to share the good news with a dying man on your doorstep who–with his last breaths–has repeatedly asked you (a church going man) how he can get right with God from his life of sin and so far you spent four of his last five minutes:

    1. Telling this man that his plea is a “trick question.”
    2. Then when he asks again, you change the subject and ask him about whether or not he believes in “living prophets.”
    3. You tell him he wouldn’t understand anyway.

    Now you not only avoid the desperate plea altogether, you begin “piling” a bunch of rhetoric on him and go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, about how much of a victim you are.

    The closest you’ve come to answering the man’s dying plea is to lie to him, telling him that he’ll receive a second chance after he dies. So far it appears that that’s the LDS gospel of good news . . . and it doesn’t sound that good.

    I’ve got only one minute left, Keith.

    – The Pilgrim

11. The Desert Pastor says:

    July 19, 2008 at 7:38 pm (Edit)

    An even more conclusive test for those TRULY serious minded truth seekers –

    First, do NOT look to the official sites of those organized religions which DO NOT TEACH:

    1. Salvation by grace through faith alone – a Biblical doctrine;
    2. That Jesus Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God;
    3. That Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% man;
    4. That salvation is 100% of God and 0% (zero) of man;

    AND which DO teach things like:
    1. Joseph Smith (a womanizer, a false prophet, a dabbler in the occult) has much to do with our ultimate salvation;
    2. Mary was sinless and is therefore part of the redemption of true believers;
    3. Popes and priests are able to mediate between us and God which is contrary to 1 Timothy 2:5;
    4. That Jesus and Satan were/are spirit brothers born of a celestial physical relationship between God the Father AND one of the wives from his innumerable harem;
    5. That (again contrary to Scripture), we all have the capacity and the ability to become a god and will one day get to start and populate our own little world by procreating with our own harem – hmmmmm, sudden thought, sounds ALOT like the ultimate ideal for a Mus1im man — might just be a similar connection and I can bet it’s NOT the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, but I digress;
    6. That to get up the celestial rungs of the heavenly ladder, you must live a life of duplicity in abject fear that those around you will find out your downfalls and be able to go higher in one of the most perverse games of one-up-man-ship ever devised by a fallen, depraved man who dared to call himself a prophet;
    7. etc, etc, etc.

    INSTEAD, DO THIS –

    1. Go directly to the Word of God which alone is infallible;
    2. Pray to God for mercy;
    3. Pray that God the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of Scripture to your sin-darkened heart;
    4. Seek to understand why God/Jesus Christ had to come to this earth to become the ultimate sacrifice;
    5. Realize that there are a multiplicity of ways to reach eternity – HOWEVER, there is only one way that will keep you in the holy presence of God forever;
    6. Accept that you and ALL of mankind has transgressed against a holy and righteous God Who must demand payment for falling short of His glory;

    Finally, realize that what is shared here comes not from a manual out of any of the variety of churches represented by the writers of this blog. Realize that it does not come from a book or a creed or a tradition that has done and will continue to damn the souls of men, women, and children to a Christ-less eternity. These truths we share have NOTHING to do with OUR opinions – it comes directly from the pages of the Holy Bible which comes directly from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as He guided the prophets of old to write.

    Oh, a little sidenote, by the way, what they wrote didn’t require goofy looking glasses or the plagiarizing of another book already in existence by over 65% of its purported content!

    Still thankful for the grace of God that saved a wretch like me!
    The Desert Pastor

12. The Desert Pastor says:

    July 19, 2008 at 7:44 pm (Edit)

    By the way, there are billions who are “like” Pilgrim but are truly 1 minute from eternity!

    The greatest double-cross in history will occur one day when Lucifer/Satan/the evil one will be cast into the Lake of Fire forever, but before he goes, he will be forced to state that “JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!” All those who have and continue to follow the evil one’s leadership are following the wrong god – and this includes ALL who follow man-made doctrine and religion!

    Pilgrim, as you well know that for those who only have one minute to go (and we do not know when it will be our time) – THERE IS HOPE!

    “My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus’ name! On Christ the Solid Rock I stand, ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND!”

    My hope is in Jesus Christ ALONE!
    The Desert Pastor

13. Coram Deo says:

    July 19, 2008 at 7:52 pm (Edit)

    There are more tactics that I could mention but enough is enough. I want to invite all who are serious minded truth seekers to make a test. Read this site and then go to lds (or the official sites of the Catholic Church or the Jehovah Witnesses whom this site denigrates) and read on that site. The Holy Spirit (also known as the Holy Ghost) has promised to let all who are honest in heart to know what is truth and what is not. After reading if you feel inspired, uplifted and the Peace of God then you will know you have found truth. If you feel confused, cold or contention then you know the source of that information. I want to tell all who read my words that I know by the witness of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ and the only way to God and fulfillment of the purposes of this Earthly experience. In the name Of Jesus I speak my witness.

    Keith

    Well isn’t that amazing!

    The Pope would certainly be proud of your ecumenism here, Keith, but methinks the Watchtowerites would shun you as an apostate and well, Joseph Smith would probably have required a blood atonement had you made such a profession in his presence back in the halcyon days of the LDS before it began prostituting its doctrines in a vain effort to mainstream itself and win the approval of the world.

    You speak of Jesus Christ and God as though religion are the same as the REAL Jesus Christ and the One True and Living God as He has uniquely revealed Himself solely within the 66 books of the Holy Bible – but they’re not.

    As a Mormon you’re following after a false christ and a false god spawned from the pit of hell – a satanic construct vomited forth from perdition to lead men and women unto eternal damnation in hellfire.

    Sadly this is not unlike your spiritual kissing cousins within the JW and RCC false religious organizations which are doing the exact same thing! This is the reason we speak out against these false religions because they’re false and under the admonition of scripture true believers in the real Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible are required to expose the evil works of darkness for which you are an ambassador.

    I have a testimony for you, Ambassador Keith:

    That there is one true and eternal God, unchangeable, unique, all-powerful.1

    That this one true God created all things; there is nothing that exists anywhere that He did not bring into existence.2

    That this one true God is spirit, and is not limited to time and space, both of which He himself created.3

    That man is the creation of God, and God should not be thought of as an exalted man.4
    That Jesus Christ has eternally existed as God.5

    That Jesus Christ created all things.6

    That the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin.7

    That man is spiritually dead, enslaved to sin, unable to come to Christ outside of the Father’s enablement.8

    That full and complete salvation is the work of God’s grace.9

    That the Bible is God’s inerrant, authoritative, and sufficient revelation to man, in need of no supplements.10

    This is my testimony, one that I believe is given to me by the Holy Spirit of God. The Bible says the Spirit of God witnesses to our spirits that we are the children of God (Romans 8:16) and that He leads His people into all truth (John 16:13).

    I share this testimony with you because I believe the issues mentioned above define the gospel itself. The gospel requires that we know the one true God (John 17:3); a false god cannot save us. The gospel requires that we know the true Jesus Christ, for a false Christ cannot save (John 8:24, 2 Corinthians 11:4). And the true gospel alone can bring salvation, which is why we are warned about those who would preach a false gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, however, denies every single one of the beliefs I shared with you above. Every one.* It is because of this that I share this literature with you. If you are LDS, I sincerely wish to warn you that you have been misled. If you are not LDS, I wish to inform you of the great differences that exist between Christianity and Mormonism at the most fundamental levels. While we often use the same words, we fill those words with very different meanings.

    If you are LDS: I have given you my testimony. Doubtless you may say you have your own. The two testimonies contradict each other, however. What can we do now? The difference between us, my friend, is just this: my testimony does not determine truth. My testimony is a wonderful and precious thing, but it is not how I know the truth. My testimony must be subjected to a higher authority: the Bible. No matter how strongly I may “feel” about something, I must submit my feelings to the correction of the Word of God. So while you and I may have testimonies that conflict, I can take my testimony to the Word of God and demonstrate how it is consistent not only with some of the Bible, but with all of the Bible. My beliefs come from the Bible, and I would be glad to demonstrate this to you.

    If you are not LDS: Christianity claims to be God’s truth. As such, there is no room, nor reason, for compromising on the essential elements of the faith. Mormonism is a fundamentally different religion, for Mormonism openly proclaims a “plurality of Gods” (see the Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20, 37, Book of Abraham chapters 4-5, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 345ff). Christianity is unalterably monotheistic: we believe in only one true and eternal God. Mormonism presents a different God, a different Christ, and a different gospel. Because we love God, honor His truth, and desire others to know Him, we share this information with you.

    (1) Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10, 44:5-8; Psalm 90:2, 96:5; Mal. 3:6; James 1:17. (2) Isa. 40:22, 41:4, 44:24; Jer. 10:10-11; (3) 2 Chron. 6:18; Jer. 23:24; John 4:24. (4) Zech 12:1; Psalm 50:21; Isa 29:16; Hosea 11:9. (5) John 1:1, Phil. 2:5-6; Heb 1:10. (6) John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:1-3. (7) Col. 1:19-20, 2:13-14; 1 Pet. 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7. (8 John 6:44, 65; Eph. 2:1-5. (9) Eph. 2:8-10. (10) 2 Tim. 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21

    In Christ,
    CD

14. fourpointer says:

    July 20, 2008 at 5:36 am (Edit)

    Keith said,

    I am sorry but you and I do not worship the same God.

    That’s what we’ve been saying all along. Thank you for the verification.

15. Tom J says:

    July 20, 2008 at 5:58 am (Edit)

    I could not read all of the posts here, and what I did read got pretty wild.

    If I were to claim that Evangelical theology and Catholic theology on faith and works are the same in substance, would I find that some, in the interest of intellectual integrity, would want to see if I could substantiate my point? Or would I be shouted down?

    The two sides use the term “Justification” very differently, and that is the cause of the dispute.

16. fourpointer says:

    July 21, 2008 at 6:13 am (Edit)

    From Keith’s thesis:

    The first I will mention is one called piling (a mass of building piles to be considered collectively). This method is taking quotes out of context and pilling them up so that it confuses the mind.

    Examples, please? Where did we do this? See, this is one of FAIR’s tactics–They can’t answer a question about their beliefs, so they say “This has been addresed by many BYU articles”–without providing any articles.

    He did not attack there religions which were protestant to the ways of the Lord through the prophets. He only exposed their hearts as He knew, that they, would have Him crucified and kill His prophets as they had already done. Your denigrating is more like the Sanhedrin than the methods of the Savior.

    That’s cute how you use the word “protestant” to try and equate us with the Sanhedrin. Besides, which of us is more like the Sanhedrin? Those of us who hold to the truth of Scripture? Or a group like the LDS that adds to the Scriptures and seeks to justify their “righteousness” which is of their own works?

    I asked the question “Why do we not have prophets today?” and your answer was very close to that of the Sanhedrin “They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.”(John 8:39) These are the words they used to say that they have no need of more prophets or words from God.

    No. They used the we are children of Abraham” excuse to cling to thrie belief that because they were Jewish by birth that they were automatically guaranteed entrance into the kingdom of God. This had nothing to do with prophets.

    The most amazing thing you said was in response to my question about the millions who never had a chance hear the name of Jesus was: “All these, I guarantee, are still suffering in torment Hades along with the rich man in Luke 16, until they are all resurrected at the Great White Throne and cast into the Lake of Fire”…That means that all little children who die are consigned to Hell. These are innocent children of God who are incapable of making a sound decision.

    And see, this is the foundation of the differences between the teachings of the Mormon church and the truth of the Bible. The LDS teach that we are born “innocent” and that we cannot be held guilty until we reach some arbitrary “age of accountability” (a totally unscriptural doctrine based on man’s own whims). The truth of the matte ris, we are all born sinners:

    Ephesians 2:1-3– And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

    We are, by nature, children of wrath. Children of disobedience. There is nothing good that dwells within us. There is no such thing as a “good person” (Mark 10:18). And becasue we are born with the stain of sin, we must accept Christ’s blood as payment for our sins, or suffer for eternity. Does this include children? Your appeals to human emotion notwithstanding–yes.

    What about those who never hear the gospel?

    Romans 2:12-16–For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

    Even though someone never hears the gospel, they will still stand before the Great White Throne and be judged by their works. Why? Because although they never hear the law, they have had the law written upon their hearts. They do know right from wrong–somewhat. But they do not acknowledge the one who wrote that law that is in their hearts. They will still be judged, though less harshly than those who do hear the law and reject it (And MUCH less harshly than those who make up their own gospel and lead people away from the truth [see Psalm 138:2, Galatians 1:8-9]).

    There will be many “good people” in Hell. That’s not just my opinion, that’s biblical truth. God’s word is quite clear that “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil” (John 3:18-19). Men love sin. It’s what we are born to do. Put two children in a room with one toy and watch what happens.

    Keith, there is a great fiery lake awaiting those who never trust Christ as their Lord and Savior. Whether they heard His name or not. I know that’s hard to hear, and it doesn’t asppeal to our human sense of “fairness.” But it’s not about our sense of what’s “fair.” It’s about God’
    s justice being done, and His glory being preserved.

17. The Pilgrim says:

    September 5, 2008 at 11:09 am (Edit)

    10 seconds . . .
    9 . . .
    8 . . .
    7 . . .
    6 . . .
    5 . . .
    4 . . .
    3 . . .
    2 . . .
    1 . . .

    Times up, Keith. You allowed a soul slip into a Christless eternity of wailing and gnashing of teeth, a soul who—in his last few minutes on earth—sought an answer from you on how to get right with God and be forgiven of his sin.

    Now putting this simple illustration behind us, let’s apply it to real life. I know a man right now who is dying in a hospital bed. A man who has lived his life in sin. What hope can you offer this man? It is obvious that there is none!

    I testify to you right here and now that LDS is false religion, that LDS offers no hope, and that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

    Ironically there is good news in all of this, though. If I wrote on Mormonism every day for the rest of my life and compiled volumes of information on its heresy, blasphemy, and out right damnable doctrines, it still wouldn’t be as helpful at pointing out the hopelessness of the false LDS gospel as was presented here in the short exchange in this thread between you and I.

    You have undoubtedly shown that the cult of Mormonism offers no hope for a dying man whatsoever. The “good news” of LDS doesn’t exist.

    Sincerely,
    – The Pilgrim

18. Keith says:

    October 1, 2008 at 4:49 am (Edit)

    Pilgrim, fourpointer et-al

    Thank you for this forum where you have expressed your position and opinions and I have expressed mine. I am sorry for your man Pilgrim who chose how he lived his life and he will find himself wanting in the presence of God. But I rejoice over the billions of real people who are the innocent and pure of heart whom God will claim as His own.

    I invite all to come to the living waters of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints where in lies the promised “restitution of all things” and living oracles of these days abide just as they did in ancient times. Anyone can know by the peace in his own heart of its truth.

    Remember that no words or actions can stop the fulfillment of Gods plan or work. Watch and see all things fulfilled.

    I Love you and bid you farewell.

    Keith

19. The Pilgrim says:

    October 1, 2008 at 7:59 am (Edit)

    That sounded like a very nice and flowery comment Keith, however, it is steeped in the wisdom of the world and full of false doctrine, heretical theology, and Scriptural error.

    The Bible says (contrary to your assertion) that ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23) and that the road is NARROW and FEW find it (Matthew 7:13-14).

    You say ALL is o.k. and billions of people (many of which reject the true Christ and God’s only plan of salvation) are still “innocent and pure.” Keith, you and the rest of the world are not exempt from John 14:6.

    The Bible says that the only ones that God will “claim as His own” (read: children of God) are those who have received (the true) Jesus (John 1:12).

    What you are teaching is universalism and is a lie, and cannot be supported Scripturally. You are seductively advancing lies and in doing so, you are one of the very false teachers that Jesus warned us about over and over again.

    And Keith, as this thread has shown, LDS has nothing to offer a sinful, depraved, and wretched individual for the forgiveness of sins. This was proven as I offered you numerous opportunities to help the dying man but you offered absolutely nothing! That itself speaks volumes as to the hopelessness of a hollow and false religion based on the lies of a false gospel (Galatians 1:6-9) following a false “Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

    I pray that God will open your heart (1 John 5:20) and mind (Luke 24:25) and grant you repentance for the knowledge of the truth (2 Timothy 2:25).

    Defending truth. Contending for the Christian Faith.
    Sincerely,
    – The Pilgrim

20. Keith says:

    October 5, 2008 at 8:18 am (Edit)

    I told all farewell but curiosity brought me back. If you are inclined, read the blog on the website below and pleae comment.

    Thanks Keith

    http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2008/09/28/geert-wilders-wisdom-and-courage/

21. Randy says:

    June 20, 2009 at 6:21 am (Edit)

    Strange, you have all these people at the Great White Throne judgment awaiting their final judgment, yet, you say when they die they go to Hell. Are they being twice judged. I will have to say I believe in conditional immortality and the sleep of the dead until Christ returns.

    The discussion regarding JW’s and Mormons is very interesting as I have always wondered just what their beliefs are.

22. lyn says:

    June 20, 2009 at 8:08 am (Edit)

    Randy-
    When the Christ rejecting sinner dies, he/she is cast into outer darkness {Mat. 25:30} until the final Great White Throne Judgment. From Rev. 20:13, ‘The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.’ The dead are ‘delivered up’ to stand before God for final judgment.
    Hades/ hell means ‘the realm of the dead, later use of this word: the grave, death, hell’. When those who reject Christ die, they are well aware of their fate, they step into a Christless eternity surrounded by the blackest black. This is from Job 10:21,22 “Before I go to the place from which I shall not return, To the land of darkness and the shadow of death, A land as dark as darkness itself, As the shadow of death, without any order, Where even the light is like darkness.’ ” This is not a form of judgment, this is where they await their final fate, which is now sealed. It is NOT purgatory, for there is no getting out of what awaits. They are guilty as charged and await the final verdict of their own guilt.
    This is the terror they face, along with the nagging reality of their rejection of the Messiah; all of which now is too late. This is also where they remain until the final judgment spoken of in Rev. 20. It is at this judgment they receive their eternal punishment, which is the lake of fire.
    Hope this helps