Christmas unwrapped.

As a follow-up to A Radical Approach to December 25th: Why We Won’t Be Celebrating Christmas This Year, here are two videos on the history of Christmas.

The first video (in three parts) is from a Christian perspective.

And this video (in five parts) by The History Channel is from the secular perspective.

116 thoughts on “Christmas unwrapped.

  1. I fully understand where our celebrations originated. The issue is that we don’t celebrate that way any more – or at least most of us don’t. Does it really matter if we celebrate the birth of our Savior? I see nothing wrong with a Christ-focussed celebration, and since we don’t know when he was born, does it really matter what day we choose to celebrate it? I’d wager just about every day of the year has some pagan celebration of some sort connected with it.

    Yes, most Christians get wrapped up in the Santa garbage and all the commercialism, but for those of us who don’t, there is nothing biblically wrong with choosing a day to celebrate the birth of Christ.

    Let’s make an analogy with Resurrection Day, which is celebrated by the secular world as Easter Bunny day. We taught our children not to use the term “Easter,” as that is an anglicization of a the name of the goddess of fertility, who is celebrated in the same period as Resurrection Day. So do we then discontinue celebrating the Resurrection of our Lord because pagans celebrated fertility rites, etc on that day?

    All days belong to the Lord. If we are not celebrating anything pagan on a day we choose to honor the birth of Christ, then we do nothing wrong as Christians.


  2. Wow…

    So from the celebration of “christ”-mass we got the following:

    1) The first police force in the U.S. was created to enforce order because of the revelry of “christ”-mass. I hope we are all thankful for this when the NWO police kick our doors down and drag us off to concentration camps for torture and eventual death. We need to remember our insatiable lust for the idolatry of “christ”-mass is THE reason the police came to be. And the reason we will cease to be (in body anyway).

    2) The American Sunday School Society bribed children with candy to lure their families to “church”. (Likely to pay these Balaams Old Testament tithes.) They had to get interest on the money they spent on the candy don’t you know.

    3) The yule log is named after the pagan god yule and represents his phallus (ie: penis). Nothing warms the “holi”day season like a burning phallus in the fireplace eh?

    A few observations:

    The “pastor” of the church in the series from the Christian perspective I have to say is cowardly. He beats around the bush and relies on a video to say what he is too scared to say. This is exactly why I can’t find a church. Because the leaders are Caspar Milquetoasts. The “pastors” cater to the wants and greeds of the congregation that has the final say on if he remains pastor or not. Biblical pastors can’t be voted out of office just because they say things the flock doesn’t like. Biblical pastors are called by God ALONE and have the job for life whether the flock likes what he says or not.

    Starting at 4:18 on Part 3, the “pastor” says:

    “The point of this this morning is not to dictate to anyone in here whether you celebrate “christ”-mass or not. Or how you celebrate specifically “christ”-mass. That to a large degree is between you and the Lord.”

    Lets change a few words a little and find out what he is REALLY saying.

    “The point of this this morning is not to dictate to anyone in here whether you practice idolatry or not. Or how you practice specifically idolatry. That to a large degree is between you and the Lord.”

    LOL… gotta love perspective.

    I also note that he calls those who would take a hard line against the idolatry of “christ”-mass…Pharisees.

    And then he goes on to talk about how Jesus stood against the traditions of the Pharisees.

    Isn’t that exactly what we are doing here? Standing against the idolatry and traditions of the Pharisee roman catholic “christ”-mass?

    Then he talks about the “clear commands of God”. Isn’t idolatry against the clear commands of God? Or did idolatry somehow become accepted behavior under grace?

    Then off to the videotape to once again play what he can’t bring himself to say.

    “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions.” Mark 7:9

    I don’t know what translation that was but the NKJV has just a little more oomph to it if you know what I mean.

    Mark 7:9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

    Mark 7:6,7 6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

    And what exactly is a pastors job?

    2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

    Wouldn’t convincing, rebuking, exorting and teaching CLEARLY include speaking against idolatry in the harshest possible terms? And putting out of the church any who practice idolatry in an unrepentant manner after being confronted by one, then two or three and then the whole church? Maybe I’m a little old fashioned but yes, I think so.

    Guess what? So does Jesus!

    Matthew 18:15-17 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

    And Paul

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner–not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

    At 3:55 on the first video John Macarthur also shamefully skirted the issue in his statement. The true meaning of “christ”-mass?

    Hmmm. The true meaning of “christ”-mass… That would be summed up in one word:


    I challenge anyone to prove, by the scriptures and historical fact that “christ”-mass isn’t idolatry.

    The scripture is also clear that idolators will not inherit the kingdom of God in the following passage:

    Galatians 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

    I gotta say, I now despise this pagan celebration of idolatry more than ever before!

    Thanks Pilgram!


  3. I am glad that you said what you did about that “pastor”, I felt the same way that he was really skirting the issue. Touching on it, but not addressing it. He is a coward. He is the one that is a Pharisee (my opinion) because he loves the praise of MEN more than the praise and approval of God. John MacArthur being the chief among them in my opinion at times! He only will go so far.
    The celebrations of December 25 (thru New Year’s) are absolutely IDOLATROUS!
    No other word describes it.
    This declaration was used against me and I was forced to leave my fellowship after a hostile takeover by a young man.

    Thanks for posting.


  4. I do have to say a few more things about this.

    While I was watching the video, my daughter and son-in-law were in the living room… who are both unbelievers BTW. I had to repeatedly say, “You gotta be kidding me?!, This guy is a coward!” to drown out what he was saying.

    I almost wanted to stop it so they wouldn’t be strengthened in their wickedness.

    They celebrate both Hanukkah (he is Jewish) and “christ”-mass although the tree is in their bedroom because I refuse to allow it in my sight. I have also told my wife that under NO circumstances will we be visiting their bedroom on December 25th.

    They have a beautiful little girl who my wife and I are trying to train in the ways of The Lord in spite of her parents unbelief and this will be the first year that she will be exposed to the vile, filthy idolatry of December 25th.

    Needless to say, this is causing much stress in our home… and is why these two threads are so very personal to me.

    There is no way that I would remotely consider exposing them to a church such as the one in the video that undermines both the scriptures and everything that we are trying to stand against in this wicked world.

    Is it any wonder the church is in the shape it’s in?

    Instead of ministering by the Word, we are bombarded continually throughout the year by wolves that call themselves pastors and we sit and say “Amen” to everything that their worldly, ecumenical, idolatrous minds can think up.

    It’s not a blessing to sit in such a place… it is torture beyond belief.

    Just as it is an abomination for a son to have to teach his father the truth when it is a fathers job to train his children in the way they should go, it is just as much of an abomination for sheep to have to instruct a “shepherd” on how to do his job.

    While we fight for the right to commit idolatry, there is a world out there that is quickly heading towards a cliff like Lemmings. At the bottom of the cliff is the lake of fire but instead of warning them about it, we ask them to join us in celebration of “the reason for the season”…. and then let them continue on their way to the cliff.

    Tell me, is there any difference between Christians fighting for the right to practice the idolatry of “christ”-mass and men like Phil Yancey who are fighting for the right of his listeners to be homosexual?

    Hell is the end result for both idolatry and homosexuality.

    I don’t know what else to say.. sigh….


  5. Hi Glenn,

    The entire celebration is idolatry, not just the tree. Even the cowardly pastor in the video above agrees that the passage in Jeremiah is speaking of a saturnalia tree.

    And historical records from the pagans prove it was well.

    Is it “legalistic” for God to require holiness of His people?

    And BTW, where exactly does the word “legalistic” appear in the scriptures? Even in corrupt translations?

    Even this site, which seems to promote the “mass”, includes the pagan history of the tree.

    And more:


  6. I just finished watching the first 3 videos. I recognize the preacher – there have been posts on this site wherein he has preached Truth powerfully well. All men have weakness and error.

    Since I had not heard of the women featured in the video within the video, I Googled her. Caryl Matrisciana has her own web site with a YouTube channel and she is featured on Dave Hunt’s site. From Caryl’s web site, a short video showing a man who testifies he left the Truth of God’s Word for a good feeling from a loving god known well to every Roman, Arminian, and Pelagian.

    Sorry for the rabbit trail.


  7. UServant,
    Did you look at my article about the Christmas tree? The whole point is that celebrating a day to honor the birth of Jesus is not idolatry. Just because the origin of the day’s celbration was rooted in placating pagans, that doesn’t mean the idea of celebrating His birth is idolatry. Find in Scripture where it says we are not to honor the birth of Christ! Decorating a pine tree in one’s home is also not idolatry any more than is having plants decorating a house. All plants are God’s – they don’t belong to pagans. We have never celebrated any commercialism in my home; we did jokes about Santa when our kids were growing up so they would know the story behind him, but we always celebrated the birth of Christ – including a birthday cake for Jesus. The idea was to inculcate in our children the knowledge that God came into the world at a particular time and place as a man. Since we don’t know the day, it doesn’t matter when we celebrate it. Since nothing we ever did was pagan, it becomes a Romans 14 issue. I would venture that pagans have used every item of creation for some sort of idolatry but that doesn’t negate anyone from using the same item for any other purpose.

    “Legalistic” is in the Bible in the same places you find the word “Trinity.” The point being, words don’t have to be in the Bible to define a biblical concept. Legalism can be defined in one of four ways:
    1. Keeping the Law as a means of salvation (Rom. 3:28, Gal. 2:16)
    2. Keeping the Law’s letter by not the spirit (Mark. 2:23-3:6)
    3. Building a fence of unnecessary extra-biblical requirements around biblical law (Matt. 15:3-9; 23:16-24)
    4. Imposing obsolete O.T. laws on N.T. believers. (Rom. 14:1-23; Heb. 8:13)

    I’d say the issue of Christmas being celebrated or not can fall under 2 and 3 above.


  8. Glenn,

    I think the pagan worship concern cannot be dismissed by the accurate but not quite relevant statement, “pagans have used every item of creation for some sort of idolatry but that doesn’t negate anyone from using the same item for any other purpose.” and so forth. Indeed – Romans 14 should inform our attitudes and how we deal with others who don’t see things our way. But burning a log in fireplace on Dec 25 is not the same thing as celebrating Yule. It is, therefore, not right to blow off the celebration of Yule by observing that it’s OK to burn wood on those days.

    While the Bible does not forbid us from celebrating the birth of Christ, it is clear in myriad Scriptures throughout the Bible that God does care how we go about worshiping Him. It is dangerous for man to rely on his own wisdom in determining how he should approach or even think about Almighty Creator God.

    I think the warnings by the Arminian Dispensationalist Caryl are well reasoned and ought to cause any Christian to examine how and why he does “Christmas”.


  9. Hi Glenn,

    Yes, I read the link and it uses weak, worldly wisdom to defend “christ”-mass trees.

    Romans 14 has nothing to do with celebrating pagan “holi”days or practicing idolatry. Idolatry is hardly a “doubtful thing” that Paul mentions in Romans 14:1. Neither is paganism.

    And the “holi”-day also has nothing to do with eating food sacrificed to idols as some claim.

    We do know the day. September 29, 4 or 2 B.C. depending on the calendar.

    But we are nowhere instructed by any passage of scripture to celebrate the Lords birthday. And the early church up to the time of Constantine did not celebrate it either.

    As a side note, the only birthday celebrations mentioned in scripture were by pagans. Pharaoh and Herod.

    I don’t even celebrate my own birthday.

    Also, I do want to state that I’m not here trying to force anyone to stop practicing idolatry or paganism but at the same time I am not going to sit back and watch all these weak arguments attempt to hold sway over the truth of the matter either.

    If people want to practice idolatry and paganism, they will have to answer to God for it, not me.

    But I will call a spade a spade.


  10. Glenn,

    While I am personally reconsidering much of where I stand in regards to the celebration of holidays, I am in complete agreement with you regarding the passage from Jeremiah 10. This passage is taken so far out of context in order to fit the legalistic viewpoint that it is beyond the pale and not even remotely humorous. If a person’s principles for NOT having a tree are based on taking the reading of this passage, then they should spend more time studying the entire counsel of God. Thanks for sharing.

    The Desert Pastor


  11. UnprofServant
    No, it is NOT “Weak, worldly wisdom.” It is called common sense. Romans 14 does indeed address idolatry in the subject of foods sacrificed to idols. It has to do with offending weak brothers if THEY are offended by your knowing that idols are nothing and you can eat the meat that has been sacrificed.

    No we DON’T know the day
    Unless you have some special knowledge that no one else has, it is all speculation.

    Scripture doesn’t have to say we CAN celebrate the Lord’s birthday – it doesn’t say we CAN celebrate our own birthday! But it doesn’t say we can’t, and that is the point!

    Job’s children celebrated their birthdays – read Job chapter one. Nevertheless, Scripture nowhere proscribes the celebration of birthdays (your example is a JW trick)

    In order to be practicing paganism or idolatry, it would have to be what the intent is. You have no right to call it idolatry or paganism if I have no idolatrous intent or pagan rituals. Decorating a house is not paganism nor is it idolatry. Celebrating a birthday is not either one, and nowhere proscribed.

    You are indeed practicing legalism when you add limits extra-biblically


  12. After reading this, I must say that people who defend their ‘rights’ can be considered just as ‘legalistic’ as those who oppose them.

    Everything Jesus spoke was for those who had ears to hear and eyes to see.

    Obedience to God is not legalism.

    I will not follow the masses to celebrate a substitute ‘holy’ day-any time of year. Jesus was not even born at the time saturnalia/solstice is celebrated-the shepherds do not sit out at night with their flocks in winter. Ishtar and Passover are two different times of year on the calendar, hence many celebrate their ‘easter’ services at a different time than the passover (which is when Christ was crucified). So to celebrate the Resurrection of our Lord at ‘ishtar’ is not following the early church, which celebrated it at ‘pascha’. Look it up.

    The Kingdom of God is so much more than debating our ‘rights’. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling…and that is what I intend to do. If the early church (the apostles and Christ himself/the 1st and 2nd century-true-church) celebrated it, then so will I. Otherwise, I have stripped it from my life. God’s people will not want to do something displeasing to their Lord, they will lay it down, seek Him and His Word and line their lives up with what the Holy Spirit of God requires of them.

    I grieve at the state of God’s church and how far it has come from what God’s heart is. Feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit those in chains…in jails…doing what needs to be done and so do to the Lord.

    Why do we waste time defending our ‘rights’ to celebrate…when God is clearly not celebrating? This world is a mess…our hearts should be broken for the eternally lost.

    Sadly, many will not understand my heart on this matter-nor God’s.

    Is the little child dying of cholera in Haiti worried about ‘christ’ mass? Is the persecuted man/woman of God worried about buying ‘christ’ mass presents for their children? What about people of God who are jobless, hungry and homeless? Americans worry so much about defending their rights…and do not understand the Kingdom of God. A true Christian follows Christ…not the ‘back pocket American brand’ of Christ.

    Once the Lord spoke to me, saying, “Stand you in the ways, and see and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and you shall find rest for your souls.” I did not want my life to reflect the rest of the scripture there in Jeremiah 6:16 “But they said, We will not walk therein.” You may make merry at this time…but please…I do not think God is merry at all.

    My thoughts anyway…which really, in the grand scheme of eternity…mean nothing.

    I remain,


  13. Common sense?

    So now we have Sola Commonos Sensurus?

    Without question, ALL of the pro-“christ’-mass posts on both of the threads here fail to provide ANY proof whatsoever from the scriptures ALONE to support their celebration of pagan idolatry.

    Romans 14 does not approve of Christians partaking of pagan festivals or their idolatry. Thats the point.

    And we are only permitted to eat food sacrificed to idols IF we don’t KNOW it was sacrificed to idols.

    Job 1’s “appointed day” in verse 4 has nothing to do with birthdays..

    Keep looking though, you may find something..

    I have to say, all of the pro arguments sound like they were ripped from old Beastie Boys lyrics instead of taken from Holy Scripture.

    “You gotta fight..for your right…to paaaarty!!”

    Instead of trying to justify idolatry and paganism by twisting the scriptures to suit your greeds and wants, just admit to God that you don’t care what His Word says and you’re just going to… “Whateva, whateva, I do what I want.” like Cartman from South Park.

    At least then, He may be able to change your mind at some point.

    You said, “In order to be practicing paganism or idolatry, it would have to be what the intent is.”

    So then.. we can take the mark of the beast as long as we don’t intend to worship the beast?

    And I beg to differ, I do have a right, an obligation even, to cast down any and all arguments that exalt themselves over the knowledge of God.

    I also have a right, an obligation even, to defend the gospel.

    And lastly, I also have a right, an obligation even, to contend for the faith.

    Many would say Paul was a JW or legalistic too.

    1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.


    Are we going to have a debate on what the word “all” means next?


  14. Unprofitable,

    Talking about being obedient to Scripture (to which I say a hearty “Amen!”), may I bring up the command to NOT forsake the gathering together as some have done? You will not find a church that meets all your expectations, but I dare say you can find one one that exalts the biblical Christ and holds to the sufficiency and inspiration of the Word of God. Lot and his daughters show us the possible consequence of being separate – there is a ditch on either side of the road.


  15. Hi Manfred,

    I do fellowship with believers, just not in a 501C3 corporation building. Wherever two or more are gathered. You know the rest.

    Nevertheless, I would never sit under such poor leadership as shown in the video above.


  16. Unprofitable,

    Very good to hear. I have long been of the opinion that one of the biggest tests for churches and their members in this country would be if the feds eliminated charitable status for churches. What impact would that have on the giving. I dare say most professing Christians would not live up to the reputation of the poor folks in Corinth who begged Paul for the privilege of giving to the suffering saints in Jerusalem.


  17. Hi Manfred,

    I don’t want to go off topic too much but in regards to 501c3, the churches were deceived into accepting it.

    There was never a need to “register” as churches were and are exempt from taxes without it.

    “Section 508(c) of the Internal Revenue Code provides that churches are not required to apply for recognition of Section 501(c)(3) status in order to be exempt from federal taxation or to receive tax deductible contributions. Churches are automatically exempt from Federal income tax, and contributions to churches are deductible by donors under section 170.”

    501c3 was meant to marry the church to the state just as was Constantines merger. One step closer to the beast and his mark.

    Jesus rightly said you cannot serve God and mammon but 501c3 churches serve mammon by law.

    Talk about legalistic! 🙂


  18. notofthisworld:
    excellent commentary, well said. No need to add much more on this subject except this…I am thankful each day for the birth of God’s Son, I do not need to wait ’til Dec. 25 to thank Him. I do not need earthly presents, for I have received the greatest gift of all and it did not come by a fictitious fat guy in a tasteless red suit…it came by grace.


  19. One of the best things the church could do today would be to repent and sever her adulterous love affair with Caesar that has birthed the 501c-3, and be the spotless virgin bride Jesus Christ desires her to be. Incorporation, by its very definition, gives the authority of the church to the State. There is no way around this and it is a travesty.

    To learn more, see:

    I also encourage folks to review the forms a church has to file to become a 501c-3 and what she needs to report to the govt. in order to stay one. It is both enlightening and grievous. To start, see:


  20. Pilgrim:

    Thank you for providing this background for those who perhaps have never known or heard it. The statement that jumped out at me was from the History Channel video #1: “…by assigning that celebration to that time of year, the church lost the opportunity to control how that celebration took place.” Such is the continual problem with mixing the sacred with the profane. And in such a mixture, the sacred always loses out, and gets smothered by the profane. And who is to stop or control it, once the compromise has taken place?

    For those who are interested, The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop provides more information, not just on the heathen origins of Christmas, but on Easter and other holidays.

    There are true brothers and sisters in Christ who do not celebrate Christmas in any other way than than as a remembrance of the birth of Christ. They have trees, decorations, and give gifts. Does that make them idolaters, heathen practitioners, or apostates? Before the Pilgrim made this commitment this year, was he a practicing idolater, a heathen, unsaved? No, he was still my brother in Christ. And so are those who truly bear fruit of salvation, yet continue in an unsinful participation of certain festivals and holidays.

    Brethren: we are all growing in the knowledge of Christ, and will continue to grow as long as we follow Him. And that knowledge is not restricted to facts about holidays, but in what it means to love one another sacrificially. Let us have grace for one another. Let us encourage each other in that growth. Let us hold no antagonism nor a proud spirit toward those who have different thoughts about holidays than us. Let each of us esteem the other more highly than ourselves. And most of all, let each of us hold ourselves accountable to Christ, that we may stand before Him with a clear conscience.


  21. Hi brother Michael,

    Yes, it started with Constantine and continues in Mystery Babylon with 501c3.

    All the while, the “protestant” church continues to defend Rome while spitting on true believers.

    At first, it was very troubling to experience such hostility from so-called believers until we read the scriptures and find out the ultimate end.

    Daniel 11:32-35 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

    Daniel 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

    Get ready for it, our destiny in this world is to be completely shattered. Which, by the way is totally out of step with Babylonian “christianity”. Over here, we want to be the ones doing the shattering.

    Jesus also spoke of this:

    John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.

    Like it or not, those who defend idolatry and paganism (“christ”-mass included) will, in the end, find a way to defend taking the mark of the beast.

    “Everybody in my church is taking it…”

    “I have to feed my family..”

    “My best friend took it…”

    “My wife took it..”

    “My husband took it…”

    “Thats not really the mark of the beast….”

    I think that will be the biggest one. The church loves a good debate over doctrine. And the scripture is most always rejected in favor of “our rights”.

    This can be avoided, but it requires counting ALL of the things of this world as dung like Paul did.


  22. lyn

    And just for the sake of clarification-I agree that we are obligated to contend earnestly for the faith. My use of the word ‘right’ was misunderstood.

    I am also careful to practice “the servant of the Lord must not argue”-which is why I only make comments once in a while. Comments and forums prohibit hearing ‘how’ the person is saying it and hearing their heart on a matter. Everything I said, was said in all gentleness-to show another person’s application of the matter. That is all.

    Follow Jesus, serve the Lord, love His Word-and do it. That is the walk and the path I want to follow-the straight, narrow and difficult path. It is not easy to go against the status-quo, in any area of this dark, wicked world. Many have gone against the flow…knowing it would cost them their lives.


  23. Okay, there seems to a lot of people thinking it is wrong to celebrate the birth of our savior in any fashion at all, yet there is not one iota of Scripture that even hints at it.

    Those who are “legalistic” are those who take something Scripture is silent on and make a rule about it, and then tell others who don’t follow that rule that they are in idolatry.

    NO ONE knows when Christ was born, and I have read very good arguments for winter and fall births. Anyone claiming knowledge to the exact time is claiming knowledge no one has found before. But if we choose to honor the birth of Christ, it can be any day we like and be perfectly biblical. Read Romans 14 – it addresses the very issue of people considering one day more sacred than another, and Paul says it is okay! He points out that it is a heart issue. So if have no thought of any pagan celebrations on the day I choose to set aside as a day to give recognition of Christ’s birth, then I do nothing against God or Scripture, contrary to any claim here.

    I demonstrated from Scripture in my article on the Christmas tree (how about if I call it a “winter” tree? – is it then okay with you, UnServ?) that there is no biblical proscription about using a tree for decorations – no matter what time of year it is. Common sense – Yes “Sola commonos Sensurus”- is indeed biblical; we are to to use our reasoning skills in Scripture. Common sense is reasoning skills. If one is not using a plant to worship then common sense says it can be used for decorations without offending God.

    Romans 14 DOES approve of Christians eating meat sacrificed to an idol as long as it isn’t done in a way to cause a brother to stumble. It’s okay to eat because the person eating it isn’t the one who sacrificed it, nor does he believe anything about the sacrifice.

    As for Job 1’s appointed days, your references to http://www.biblestudytools makes no mention of what it means, yet I have numerous commentaries which say it can be reference to birthdays or perhaps other special feast days. In context it could very well be a birthday, but that isn’t the point, is it? You claim the Bible doesn’t allow for the celebration of birthdays yet there is no mention in Scripture about doing so. Back to Romans 14.

    So, if I choose to celebrate the birth of Christ on a day UnpServ thinks is bad, then suddenly I am trying to justify idolatry and paganism!?!?! That is exactly what I mean by legalism. You have yet to demonstrate from Scripture anything wrong with celebrating a birthday of any kind on any day. Then you insinuate that my celebration is party time and debauchery – talk about unbiblical judgments!

    There isn’t any appearance of evil to anyone if I happen to set aside a day to honor the birth of Christ. If you think there is an appearance of evil, then I submit it is YOUR heart that needs checking!

    Brother Michael, I hate to tell you this but Mary was never “spotless” – she was a sinner just like the rest of us, no matter what Rome says.


  24. Thank you David W. for your comment. We do need to be careful not to fight and quarrel with one another, even when we may disagree. As the body of Christ, we are to build each other up (Eph. 4:29).
    Glen had some great points. i agree that commons sense can be a good thing, but only when led by the Spirit of God. Otherwise, it is foolishness. We need to seek God’s wisdom on issues such as this (James 1:5, Eph. 5:17)


  25. Glenn – Your comment leaves me rather befuddled. If you have read any of my posts, or my testimony you would know I am as far from a Romanist as they come. As far as my supposed saying that Mary was “spotless”, where might I have said that? If you are referring to my comment above, you might want to re-read it more slowly as you will see I was referring to the bride of Christ!!!


  26. Ah, Lord God! Deliver us from deception!

    Scripture is far from silent on the subject of idolatry.

    And history is far from silent on the idolatrous “holi”day of “christ”-mass. “Protestants” celebrating “christ”-mass shows the R.C. church that they own us. Like it or not.


    Luke 16:31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

    If we can’t believe Moses who wrote about Jesus and we don’t believe the prophets who also wrote about Jesus, we won’t believe Jesus Himself either. Which simply means we won’t believe either the written Word or the living Word.


    Please just admit you are going to celebrate “christ”-mass even if God appeared to you and told you to stop. Just like Solomon when the Lord appeared to him and told him to stop worshipping idols. At least you wont be adding lying to idolatry…

    1 Kings 11:9 So the Lord became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the Lord God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,

    You keep insisting that anyone who would dare to tell you that “christ”-mass is idolatry is “legalistic”, a word invented by apostate “church”men that insist that we can do anything we want after we are saved with zero consequences.

    Have I quoted even one of the ten commandements? Or any of the 613 total commandments?

    We are saved by grace through faith. None of us can save ourselves by works.

    But what does the grace of God teach us?

    Titus 2:11-15 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

    And what happens when the church is exposed to villans that teach we can do anything we want because after all, we are under grace?

    Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    People act like even the teachings of the New Testament are Old Testament law. That, to me, is being unteachable. If you aren’t teachable you can’t be a disciple of Christ and if you aren’t His disciple, you are not His at all.

    Only a very few get to be saved and taken to be with the Lord the very same day like one of the thieves on the cross.

    No, most of us will have a lifetime of battling the flesh, the world and the devil. Broken, bruised and just plain worn out. Not many Christians in the U.S. have had to give up their lives for the Lord and honestly I don’t think that even 1% of those who call themselves Christians in America would even be willing to. We can’t even give up false doctrine and idolatry. How could such people ever give up their lives?

    Quick question. Who does Jesus tell to depart from Him? Those who practice legalism?

    Lets have a look.

    The KJV uses the word iniquity.

    Which means:

    Sounds alot like Antimonianism. And Antimonianists invented the word legalism.

    Lets look at what the Word says idolatry is:

    1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you from being king.”


    Colossians 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.


    Try and justify it away all you want. It is what it is.

    And of course idolatry is also worshipping a graven image.

    All Old and New Testament references to the word “idol”

    All Old and New Testament references to the word “idols”

    All Old and New Testament references to the word “idolatry”

    Poor Paul the legalist was so misinformed by the modern church when he said:

    1 Corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

    Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

    Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

    1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

    A few more links for those who care:

    Idolatry EXCUSES

    What’s Wrong With Christmas?

    For those who want to see how truly deranged the “church” has become…

    WARNING: Blue words at this link.

    I really have nothing further to add to this discussion. Everything that can be said has been. If people can’t figure out by the scriptures and history of “christ”-mass that it’s idolatry foisted on “protestants” by Rome to corrupt us, they’re blind.


  27. I think you have touched on the crux of the matter…. UNTEACHABLE.
    Most people believe what they want to believe regardless whether it is Scriptural or not.
    They will not listen to anything opposing their preconceived, denominational, manual; notice I did not say the Bible, because most do not even crack the cover.
    When you cannot prayerfully consider what someone says from the Word of God, then you are unteachable, and in my opinion that is a dangerous place to be.
    Because you become a law unto yourself, trusting in your intellect (“common sense”) to reason and rationalize your point of view.
    Oh how defensive you become, when you’re unteachable, when someone threatens your ideaogy or steps on your little idol. I heard a great preacher once say, “defenses are not of God” and I believe it more and more.
    Oh, may I never be unteachable. Lord Jesus sift me as wheat, refine me and purge me so that I shall come forth like gold.


  28. Well said, Berean Gal.. In several contexts I’ve been pondering this – seeing it in some and looking for it within myself. Wanting to have confidence in the Word of God and in the Lord Himself – knowing how easy it is to displace Him with me and line up with that song from “My Fair Lady” – “I have confidence in ME!” May it never be.


  29. Sorry Brother Michael – I am so used to seeing Virgin Mary spotless I my brain saw that there. How embarrassing!

    I never said scripture was silent on idolatry. I said it was silent as to whether we celebrate birthdays.

    Between Romans 14 and 1 Cor. 8, Paul says plenty about forcing others to bend to you rules on things of which the scripture does not speak. His comments about those eating meat sacrificed to idols not being in sin is a good analogy to those of us who use winter decorations such as evergreen trees, etc. All your passages about idolatry have nothing to say about celebrating a birthday or decorating homes with God’s creative works.

    Rome does not own anyone who choses to honor the birth of Christ. Your claim with this is inane and well as illogical.

    God would not tell me to stop celebrating the birth of Christ because it violates no command of God. Would he also tell me to stop celebrating my own birthday?

    Oh, so “legalistic” is a word invented by an apostate church!?!?! You’ve got to be kidding me. I gave you examples of legalistic teachings and you fit right in there.

    You have yet to prove from Scripture that celebrating Christ’s birth is idolatry, or that having an evergreen tree decorated in my house is idolatry. Show me just one, just one passage.

    You rambled on with passages that have nothing to do with the topic, as if by throwing verses out like confetti they will prove your case. But you have yet to identify where it is Scripturally wrong to celebrate a birthday or to decorate a home with plants and other trappings. Your whole problem is the Romanist Church and how the idea started. Then you make it built by association – that because ancient celebrations consisted of debauchery and other revelry, it therefore means we can’t celebrate with a Christ-focussed heart.

    The you make a horrible sweeping judgment that not even 1% of those who call themselves Christian would be willing to die for their faith – if that isn’t something I hear from cultists I don’t know what is!

    By the way, it was the legalistic Pharisees who Jesus condemned for their adding of burdensome rules to the law.

    You have turned your own rules into your own idol.

    Celebrating the birth of Christ in a Christ-honoring, Christ-focussed way is not idolatry. Go read 1 Cor. 8 and Rom. 14 again about disputable matters.

    As for Berean Gal, there is no Scripture that says celebrating the birth of Christ is wrong in any way. The unteachable are those legalists who want others to follow the rules they have set up outside of Scripture.


  30. Proverbs 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commands, But a prating fool will fall.

    Proverbs 10:23 To do evil is like sport to a fool, But a man of understanding has wisdom.

    Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But he who heeds counsel is wise.

    Proverbs 13:16 Every prudent man acts with knowledge, But a fool lays open his folly.

    Proverbs 14:16 A wise man fears and departs from evil, But a fool rages and is self-confident.

    Proverbs 15:5 A fool despises his father’s instruction, But he who receives correction is prudent.

    Proverbs 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge, But the heart of the fool does not do so.

    Proverbs 17:7 Excellent speech is not becoming to a fool, Much less lying lips to a prince.

    Proverbs 17:10 Rebuke is more effective for a wise man Than a hundred blows on a fool.

    Proverbs 17:12 Let a man meet a bear robbed of her cubs, Rather than a fool in his folly.

    Proverbs 17:16 Why is there in the hand of a fool the purchase price of wisdom, Since he has no heart for it?

    Proverbs 18:2 A fool has no delight in understanding, But in expressing his own heart.

    Proverbs 18:6 A fool’s lips enter into contention, And his mouth calls for blows.

    Proverbs 18:7 A fool’s mouth is his destruction, And his lips are the snare of his soul.

    Proverbs 20:3 It is honorable for a man to stop striving, Since any fool can start a quarrel.

    Proverbs 23:9 Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, For he will despise the wisdom of your words.

    Proverbs 24:7 Wisdom is too lofty for a fool; He does not open his mouth in the gate.

    Proverbs 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.

    Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

    Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

    Proverbs 27:22 Though you grind a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain, Yet his foolishness will not depart from him.

    Proverbs 28:26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

    Proverbs 29:9 If a wise man contends with a foolish man, Whether the fool rages or laughs, there is no peace.

    Proverbs 29:11 A fool vents all his feelings, But a wise man holds them back.

    Proverbs 29:20 Do you see a man hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

    Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man’s heart is at his right hand, But a fool’s heart at his left.

    Ecclesiastes 10:3 Even when a fool walks along the way, He lacks wisdom, And he shows everyone that he is a fool.

    Isaiah 35:8 A highway shall be there, and a road, And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean shall not pass over it, But it shall be for others. Whoever walks the road, although a fool, Shall not go astray.

    Mark 7:9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

    John 10:35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

    2 Timothy 3:16,17 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,


  31. Lots of verses thrown out like confetti UnprofitableServant, but you haven’t given me one passage which says celebrating a birthday is idolatry, neither have you given one passage that says decorating an evergreen tree and using it as a house decoration is idolatry.

    How about skipping the red herring verses and address the argument at hand?


  32. Glenn,

    So the Word of God is compared to confetti and red herrings…

    Jesus even told his disciples to obey the “legalistic” Pharisees when they were right.

    Matthew 23:1-3 1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

    Also, you speak much about common sense as if it’s equal to the authority of scripture.

    Even true common sense could make the connection between the idolatry and paganism of “christ”-mass, something you stubbornly refuse to do.

    So, i must conclude that you have been spiritually lobotomized by your “pastor” and/or others to not even be able to make this connection.

    Yes, it’s all too true that there are no verses in the Word that speak specifically about the day called “christ”-mass.

    It’s also true that the Word doesn’t speak about many modern inventions.

    Using your reasoning, we could also reach the following deceived conclusion:

    The Word specifically states:

    Matthew 26:52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

    Notice that Jesus said nothing about firearms.

    So, by your reasoning, modern Christians could safely take up firearms and not have to worry about perishing.

    I will not speak with you any more on this subject as your common sense is warped and you refuse to give heed to even the New Testament scriptures concerning idolatry.


  33. Also Glenn, please don’t take the verses in Proverbs above to claim that I was calling you a fool personally as was forbidden by Jesus.

    I was simply pointing out what the scriptures state about them.


  34. Glenn, one last thing.

    Please don’t think that just because I have an extremely hard line on this issue that I am without compassion or mercy.

    We all have at least one thing that plagues us in our walk that we seek to try and justify by our “common sense” or the Word. Me included.

    It will do us no good though. The Word is always right and we are most always wrong. We have to be brutally honest about this or our walk could be so severely hobbled that we could end up shipwrecked.


  35. UnprofServ,

    You are so much like cultists who twist the word to suit yourself, and then twist the words of others. I didn’t liken the Word of God to confetti or red herrings. I said you used it like confetti and made red herring arguments with it.

    It is your common sense which is legalistically warped so that you see idolatry in everything you disagree with.

    If the Scripture does not say we can’t celebrate any birthdays, they you’d have an argument – but it doesn’t, not even in principle. If the scripture said we couldn’t decorate our homes with decorated evergreens, even in principle, then you’d have an argument – but it doesn’t so you don’t.

    Just because a celebration originated among pagans, that doesn’t mean people can’t celebrate something different on the same day.


  36. The MAIN problem I see with “Christmas” is hanging the name of Christ on unbiblical practices that have their source in pagan worship. We can give gifts, have decorations, do stuff – in observance of many things. If we say we do these things for the Lord Jesus, we must be diligent and do nothing that profanes His name among the nations. In my opinion, all these pagan trappings and practices draped on the name of the Lord do that – as all the pagans of the worlds well know.

    I think Christians can celebrate the birth of the Lord – though it is not commanded in Scripture. We see it observed in Scripture – this should guide us on how to do it.

    And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with fear. And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!”

    And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.

    We are told in several places not to add to nor take away from what God has said. Let us therefore be cautious about presuming what God approves of when talking about what He has not.


  37. You sir are the one that is twisting the Word to suit yourself, not I.

    The only birthdays mentioned in the Word were celebrated by the pagans Pharaoh and Herod. You are the one who tried to accuse Jobs children of celebrating birthdays using twisting of scripture.

    Your stubborness alone is likened to idolatry, to the exclusion of the “christ”mass issue.

    Stop trying to bait me into responding to you, it is manipulative and evil.

    You have made your choice and you have to live with it.

    You can explain your twisted common sense and twisting of scripture to God when you meet Him.

    I hope for your sake that He grants you repentance before then.

    If not, you could be facing the following.

    2 Thessalonians 2:11,12 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Those who believe small lies are likely to believe big ones the longer they hold fast to them.


  38. It would seem that passions are running high, therefore I humbly ask all those on this thread who call themselves by the name of Christ to esteem each other as better than themselves, and to adorn Christ in both thought and deed. There are strong opinions on both sides of the subject of our Lord’s Incarnation, and its observance or non-observance by believers, but let’s not allow disagreements about the matter become an occasion for sin.

    In Him,


  39. Hi Coram Deo,


    As much as lies in me I have been trying to be as civil as possible.

    I can handle being called names and accused of being “legalistic”, etc., but the thing that gets to me more than anything is rejection and or twisting of scripture.

    On a side note, it looks like MSN has decided to get their own debate going.


  40. UnprofServ,

    The problem is your CLAIM of twisting of Scripture. You never demonstrated from Scripture where celebrating the Lord’s birth or using decorations that may have been used by pagans is unScriptural. I didn’t call you any names, but I stand firm on identifying your claims as being legalistic. I don’t like being told I’m committing idolatry just because you don’t agree with me, especially when you have no Scripture to back you up!


  41. glenn,
    i love you as a brother, regardless of your view on Christmas. Let’s all refrain from taking this too far, as both David W and Coram have both expressed.

    Blessings to you and your family.



  42. UnprofitableServant

    Do you happen to belong the The World Wide Church of God that was founded by Herbert W. Armstrong?

    Im not trying to start anything I am just truley curious?



  43. Matthew as Vincent,


    But I don’t believe in lawlessness either.

    In fact, either does Jesus. He was pretty plain about that when He said:

    Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    Keep in mind, these people aren’t unbelievers He’s talking to because they:

    1) prophesied in His name
    2) cast out demons in His name
    3) many wonders in His name

    He doesn’t dispute that they did any of those things.

    And they even confessed Him as Lord…twice! Evidently, they MUST have said “the sinners prayer”.

    He doesn’t say, “Depart from me, you who practice “legalism.”, but rather just the opposite.

    Antinomianism will send as many, if not more people to the lake of fire than those seeking to be justified by the works of the law.

    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

    1 Timothy 1:9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    I know that American churches love whats called “greasy grace”. God however does not.

    Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    501c3 “pastors”, which include MOST churches in the U.S. are like those mentioned by Jude.

    To all,

    Ask your pastors if the church they “shepherd” are 501c3. If they are, they are legally prohibited from preaching the truth and are slaves to mammon instead of Christ.

    Which means they are lying to you, preaching false doctrine, speaking smooth words and flattering speech that decieve the hearts of the simple and leading you to condemnation in the BIG ditch, the lake of fire.

    Whether it’s a guy like Joel Osteen or Rod Parsley, they will lead you to hell.

    TBN, CBN, GodTV, et al, ad infinitum, will also lead you to hell.


  44. U.S. said: Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    501c3 “pastors”, which include MOST churches in the U.S. are like those mentioned by Jude.

    To all,

    Ask your pastors if the church they “shepherd” are 501c3. If they are, they are legally prohibited from preaching the truth and are slaves to mammon instead of Christ.

    Which means they are lying to you, preaching false doctrine, speaking smooth words and flattering speech that decieve the hearts of the simple and leading you to condemnation in the BIG ditch, the lake of fire.

    U.S. – you’ve suggested here that pastors of 501c3 churches are “men who have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ”, and that they are “lying to you, preaching false doctrine, speaking smooth words and flattering speech that decieve the hearts of the simple and leading you to condemnation in the BIG ditch, the lake of fire”.

    Is this a correct summary of your position? If so, do you believe that such men can truly be born-again believers and yet simultaneously be lying and preaching false doctrine, or do you believe they are unbelievers masquerading as Christians in order to deceive their flocks and lead them to hell?

    In Him,


  45. Hi Coram Deo,

    501c3 includes most religious corporations in the U.S., whether they are totally unsaved orginizations like the JW’s or Mormons or those who call themselves born again.

    The key verse concerning this matter that was directly addressed by Jesus Himself is:

    Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

    That is pretty plain to me without any interpretation needed.

    Regardless of whether they are truly born again believers that are lying by ommision because they fear the state or unbelievers that are masquerading as true, Jesus said, “You cannot serve God and mammon”

    A business corporation has an obligation, by law, to follow the articles of incorporation that they agreed to when signing on the dotted line.

    There has been much talk on both of the “christ”-mass threads concerning “legalism” but the cold hard reality of 501c3 is that it subjects it’s corporations to the “legalism” of the state.

    Somehow, the corporations that claim to be born again have deceived most of their flocks to reject the New Testament commands to believers in Christ as Levitical law… while they have NO problem subjecting themselves the the “legalism” of the state.

    That is a HUGE deception.

    A site that goes into much detail about this matter:


  46. Also, these corporations that have deceived their flocks to reject the New Testament commands to believers in Christ as Levitical law… while they have NO problem subjecting themselves the the “legalism” of the state, are, whether they know it or not, leading them directly into the waiting arms of the man of sin with their love of mammon.

    The revealing of the man of sin comes after the falling away, which we are without doubt in the midst of.


  47. “Somehow, the corporations that claim to be born again have deceived most of their flocks to reject the New Testament commands to believers in Christ as Levitical law”

    I have a feeling I’m going to regret boarding this train, but I gotta know.

    1) I keep reading and re-reading this statement: “Somehow, the corporations that claim to be born again have deceived most of their flocks to reject the New Testament commands to believers in Christ as Levitical law”. What does that mean?

    2) In what specific areas are incorporated churches deceiving and lying about the truth or omitting the turth? The only thing I am aware of is that a 501c3 church cannot advocate for a specific candidate, nor place conditions of membership based on how the member votes. Well that, and the financial records are a matter of public record – all of these being reasonable. (Would you want your pastor to declare from the pulpit that voting against Obama was subject to church discipline?)


  48. Hey 072591,

    1) It means that those who use who use the word “legalism” don’t even want to be subject to the words of Jesus or His apostles and brush them off as such when it suits them.

    2) is a vast resource that it explains it in much greater detail than I have the space to here.

    And if I went to “church”, yes, I would expect my pastor to declare from the pulpit that anyone voting for Barry Soetoro would be subject to church discipline. A good scolding at the very least. Because rallying for the politics of this world is sin. That would go for McCain as well. Or anyone else from the previous 43 elections.

    Christians have NO business being involved in the politics of this world in any manner whatsoever.

    Would Jesus have voted for Ceasar if they had elections?

    A good teaching on the subject.


  49. Are you seriously arguing that voting is a sin?!? Because there is a very significant flaw in that viewpoint: the abstention of responsibility that God has given you.

    God appoints who will lead nations, which includes all positions, not just who sits on the throne. A representative democracy, like the United States, has positions that are filled, by secular means, by various people. The President chooses the Cabinet, the Senators choose the ambassadors, governors choose who sits on the various boards, etc.

    But the voters choose who sits in partisan, and many nonpartisan, positions. That means that those who are legally eligible to vote have a God-given responsibility to use the power of the position that God has given them.


  50. UnproServ,

    You make such sweeping claims. Item one, you say “those who use who use the word “legalism” don’t even want to be subject to the words of Jesus or His apostles and brush them off as such when it suits them.” There may be those who do this, however there are also those of us who use the word in its proper context to define people who make rules that are not biblical, violating Romans 14 (which you really need to read) and 1 Cor. 8. When Paul says people can eat meat sacrificed to an idol because we know an idol is nothing – so long as we don’t cause a brother to stumble – then a person who comes along and says eating meat sacrificed to an idol is idolatry is being legalistic.

    As for your broad brush of the 501c3, my church I assume has that status, but I don’t know, but that has never kept my very fundamental pastor from preaching the whole truth.

    Now, please find in Scripture where it says a Christian cannot participate in the political realm. Can’t find it, can you. Your comparison with Caesar doesn’t hold up – in this country the individual citizen has a right to say something about the government, which is something those of Jesus’ time didn’t have. Of course if a Christian is going to participate, he shouldn’t vote for those whose plank supports all that is unholy; i.e., abortion, homosexuality, stealing money from the public, etc.

    Since you cannot find in Scripture where it says we can’t participate in the political process, you have again made a legalistic demand.


  51. UnprofSer,
    Oh, and if you use 2 Timothy 2:4 as your reason for staying out of the political process (as the article in the link twists the Scripture to mean), then to follow that literally as meaning to not entangle oneself in any of the “affairs of the world,” then you’d have to also say marriage is wrong, having families is wrong, and even working a job is wrong. How about reading that passage in its context rather than from a legalistic position!


  52. Glenn, Glenn, Glenn…..

    The only exception of eating food sacrificed to idols given by Paul is when he states if you DON’T KNOW the food was sacrificed to idols, it’s acceptable to eat.

    1 Corinthians 10:27,28 27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”

    So if someone tells you before you eat that the food was sacrificed to idols you can’t eat it. So you would never even know if it was sacrificed to idols or not under scriptural instructions.

    I suppose Paul was being “legalistic” right?

    You would tell Paul he was wrong even when he told you that is what 2 Timothy 2:4 means.

    2 Timothy 2:4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.

    And it has nothing to do with marriage, families or jobs.

    Marriage is allowed:

    Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

    Families are allowed:

    Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

    And so are jobs. They are even commanded in very strong terms:

    1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

    Nice try though. And who is twisting scripture?

    Voting would be also covered under the following “sweeping” verse as well:

    1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.


  53. I also agree with your stand here Unprofitable Servant about politics.
    Do not vote.
    Never have.
    Because I believe that God is Sovereign, and my citizenship is NOT of this world, i.e. the good old U. S. of A.


  54. Greetings Sister Berean,

    Your post reminded me of a few more verses. Thank you.

    Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    God Bless you


  55. Jesus Told us that we were in the world but not to be of the world. This holiday is cetrainly of the world. It hollers spend, spend, spend. Party, party, party. The world needs to see christians doing things in a different step. We can say we celebrate diffrent, but the world sees us buying gifts, spendind our money the same as them while other children and adults go hungry.
    this is my third year not ccelebrating and I really almost whent back to it when my neice brought me back to reality.
    A follower of Christ


  56. Amen!

    I feel it more and more each day (alien status that is); and especially this time of year when others “remove you from their company” because of the stand taken against holidays (all of them).

    Today, the birthday of a loved one who is in Heaven, I feel more homesick for my Heavenly HOME!

    Soon and very soon!!!!!


  57. 072591 and Glenn,

    If you were wondering why I can’t say, “God bless you”, please read the following:

    2 John 1:9-11 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

    The KJV states:

    2 John 1:9-11 9 Whosoever transgresseth , and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed : 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


  58. Carol P.,
    Not everyone who celebrates the birth of Christ has the party and spend attitude. We don’t have to celebrate it the worldly way of unbelievers. To label all of us with that broad brush of party and spend is a logic fallacy, and just plain judging peoples’ hearts.

    How about reading chapter 8 of 1 Cor in conjunction with chapter 10. It is indeed permissible as long as we don’t have a bothered conscience and don’t harm a weaker brother.

    I see you found some justification for other affairs of the world. If you take that passage from Timothy to say you can’t participate in politics, then you HAVE TO also say it goes for any other affair of the world. Read the context – Christ/God is first – don’t get so entangled with affairs of the world that you neglect that. It’s about priorities, not that you can’t do anything in the world.

    And just how is being involved in politics the appearance of evil!!!! Yes there are evil and wicked men/women politicians, but that doesn’t mean everyone is, nor does it have the appearance of evil when you vote to oust the evil people representing you.

    God is Sovereign over the nations, but He has put us in a country where we can affect the system, and it’s Christians who have abdicated their responsibility because of legalistic ideas on voting that is one of the main reasons this country is going rapidly down hill.

    I swear you use Scripture the same way a JW does, and you are just as frustrating to deal with. I’m giving up because I believe you are unteachable because you have set yourself a very legalistic standard no one can follow, which explains why you don’t attend any “church.”


  59. One last thing for UnproSer,

    There you go again accusing me and those who chose to exercise our rights to vote and participate in the political process, and those of us who celebrate the birth of Christ in a Christ-focused manner, of transgressing the doctrines of Christ. Being citizens of heaven does not take us out of the world – we must act in the world. We can indeed exercise our citizenship rights on earth – Paul did when he appealed to Caesar – I guess he violated your legalistic rules, didn’t he!


  60. And render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar – such as jury duty, being obedient to laws, participating in government to a degree; all of which can be done without violating ANY Scripture or legitimate biblical principles.


  61. Glenn,

    More and more you show your true colors and I seriously doubt that I’m the only one.

    Try as you may, it is impossible to remove “do not eat it” from 1 Corinthians 10:28. You may be able to remove it from your Bible, but not every other copy in the world.

    1 Corinthians 10:27,28 27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”

    Being that your “pastor” won’t teach you, I’ll make another attempt although I’m probably wasting my time.

    2 Timothy 2:4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.

    Clearer? Do you see men as trees yet?

    How about now?

    You said, “God is Sovereign” and to that I say, Amen!

    Be careful though, He is also Sovereign in the following areas:

    Isaiah 6:9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

    Amos 8:11 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord God, “That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the Lord.

    Matthew 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion., that they should believe the lie,


  62. Manfred,

    We are not to render to Ceasar the things that are Gods however.

    Jury duty:

    “Persons whose religious beliefs prohibit them from serving on juries occasionally are excused from jury service.”

    Thats good news!

    Being obedient to laws:

    Yes, as long as they don’t conflict with Gods commands or the supreme law of the land, the Constitution.

    And as long as they are not the ones from scripture…

    Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.

    “This Constitution and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof…shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby… The Senators and representatives and members of the State legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers of the United States and the several States, shall be bound thereby…” – Constitution for these united States, Article VI, §2, Cl. 1

    “…a regulation which is inconsistent with the law is invalid…because a statute may not operate in derogation of the Constitution.” – Title 5, U.S.C., 301, 559, C1., 2

    “The General rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it’s enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.

    Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principles follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it…..

    A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the lend, it is superseded thereby.

    No one Is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.” – 16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256

    Participating in government to a degree:

    Nope. Jesus didn’t and neither did the apostles.

    We had better get used to disobeying unconstitutional laws because the mark of the beast will be one. As well as worshipping the beast.

    I find it very strange that people have no problem doing everything man commands them to but huge problems with Gods commands.

    Below is a close account of this years census at my house
    So the Census lady returned today and this is what happened:

    She asks, “Are you the person I need to speak with?” (This is after I told everyone in the house to give no information and answer no questions whatsoever if and when the Census takers showed up and that I would deal with them. She was here twice before and I wasn’t here once and unavailable the other time.)

    Me: “Yes and the answer is X.” (X being the number of people that live here)

    Her: “Well, I need to get some “other” information like names, etc.”

    Me: I hand her the Census Response letter and say, “Everything you need to know is in this letter. According to the Constitution I’m only required to give the number of people that live here.”

    Her: Well they told us bla, bla bla…… (They must be her socialist overlords???)

    Me: “The Constitution states that every 10 years enumeration is to take place and I gave you the number of people that live here. Thats all I’m required to give.”

    Her: “Is there anybody that can confirm the number of people that live here?”

    Me: I call my wife to the door as I tell the Census lady, “Sure but they aren’t required to give their name either.” As she looks at me with a puzzled look…. My wife confirms the number.

    Her: She looks around to the other doors in the building as to motion if anyone else in the building can confirm the number of people living in MY apartment as if my wifes word isn’t good enough and says, “I need to know if anyone else can confirm the number, you could say there are 50 people living here and we wouldn’t have any way to know…..”

    Me: “I could ask you to fill out this questionaire here and you would be required by federal law to answer it.”, as I show her the PUBLIC SERVANT questionaire.

    Her: “Well, I’d be happy to fill it out if you wanted me to.”

    Me: “I don’t think you would as there are alot of personal questions on it.” And I once again tell her that the only information I’m required to give according to the Constitution are the number of people that live here.”

    Her: She gives up after this and then proceeds to ask me information about whether or not anyone lives in Apt. # X and if I know anything about them.

    Me: I explain to her that I’m not required to give information about my neighbors and that it’s none of my business who lives where or not.

    Her: “Well I’ve been here X amount of times and nobody has answered the door. I need to know if it’s vacant or not.”

    Me: “Like I said, it’s not my job to say who lives where and all you needed to get from me is the number of people that live in my house.” as I proceed to end the encounter.

    Her: “Ok, well, etc, etc.”

    There is no doubt in my mind that this woman will be asking other people in the building about everyone else in the building that hasn’t complied with this unconstitutional invasion of privacy they call the “Census” which is about enumeration, NOT personal information.

    Welcome to Amerika……..
    And whether or not the health care bill is repealed, I will not be forced to buy insurance by an unconstitutional socialist “law”.


  63. U.S.,

    You’ve left a large number of comments on this thread, and in The Pilgrim’s other Christmas thread, and I’d like to make certain that I’m understanding you accurately, so please correct me if I’m wrong.

    Is it correct to say that you believe:

    i) Those who observe the Lord’s Incarnation are either a) engaging in some form of idolatry, and sinning and therefore should repent and flee from their error if they are true believers in Christ in order to be restored to a right relationship with God or b) spiritually lost/damned unbelievers who are dead in their trespasses and sins who need to repent unto initial salvation.

    ii) Those who pastor 501c3 churches are “men who have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ”, and are “lying to you, preaching false doctrine, speaking smooth words and flattering speech that decieve the hearts of the simple and leading you to condemnation in the BIG ditch, the lake of fire” because they stand in direct violation of Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon because by pastoring a 501c3 church they demonstrate that they are servants of mammon, and not the One true and living God. I’m unclear how this might apply to those who are members/attendees of such churches who give their time, money, and spiritual resources (giftings) at such churches. Are they guilty of the same error as the pastors/elders of such churches if they know the churches are 501c3, yet nevertheless continue to serve and give of themselves?

    iii) No true Christians “have any business being involved in the politics of this world in any manner whatsoever” to include at least voting. I’m not sure if this includes government employment such as serving in any form of elected/appointed political office from the local, county, state, or federal level, or working for a civic office such as a county tax assessor, or the IRS, or joining the military, or working as a teacher in a public (government) school, or working for a company that supplies government with products or services such as a defense contractor, a school bus manufacturer, a voting machine manufacturer, a food service company that supplies government schools/offices, a textbook or office supply company that supplies government schools/offices, a janitorial service provider that takes care of housekeeping in government schools/offices, etc. I’m wondering about the implications surrounding primary, secondary, and tertiary rings of government/politics.

    iv) 072591 and Glenn are possibly, or probably, not Christians, or else if they are Christians then they are backslidden and in need of repentance and restoration in order to be in a right relationship with God.

    Would you say the above statements are accurate representations of your beliefs? If not please clarify since, as I said before, it’s not my intent to misrepresent you, but rather to make sure I’m understanding you correctly.

    In Him,


  64. Coram Deo,

    In your list of those working for the government, I wonder how I would stand, having worked for the government my entire career (5 years Army, 3 1/2 years Postal Service, 30 years Air Traffic Control)?



  65. Hi Coram Deo,

    To answer your questions.

    1) I refuse to call December 25th the Lords Incarnation as He was born in September. Using scriptural passages and simple math, it can be accurately pinpointed to the 29th day of the month although there are some that differ concerning the exact year. Some say 4 BC, others say 2 BC due to calender types changing. I don’t know one way or the other on that as I have not studied it exhaustively.

    As to December 25th., history proves beyond any doubt that the Apostles didn’t celebrate it and neither did any portion of the church until it was instituted by Rome as “christ”-mass in 354 AD as a mixing of paganism and Christianity.

    Long story short, I believe it is a) Engaging in many forms of idolatry, and sinning and therefore should be repented of and those engaged in it should flee from their error if they are true believers in Christ.

    The excuse of it being somehow related to “eating food sacrificed to idols” is easily cast down by 1 Corinthians 10:28’s instruction to “do not eat it” if you know it was. Who doesn’t know the pagan origins of “christ”-mass here? So using the food sacrificed to idols excuse is moot.

    2) Yes, those who pastor 501c3 churches are in direct violation of Matthew 6:24. And it doesn’t matter if they are preaching false doctrine or not. Their flocks are in danger of following in their example in regards to loving mammon over God and should ask their pastors to drop the 501c3 designation as soon as they are aware of it. If the pastor refuses, the flock has no obligation to continue attending a church that is being led by someone in rebellion to Gods Word. If enough people leave, the church will either be forced into repentance via lack of funding or close down. If they stay, knowing it’s wrong, they are sinning against their own conscience and could fall into even worse sin as a result.

    3) In Acts, those who were Roman soldiers and believed in the Lord were never instructed to quit.

    Joining the military and many of the orginizations you listed require oaths. If you were already in one of those positions before being saved I would counsel to pray about it but if you were a Christian beforehand, Jesus, as always, has the answer.

    Matthew 5:33-35 33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

    And Paul.

    1 Corinthians 7:22,23 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

    4) I sincerely hope it’s the latter. God is not willing that any should perish and those believe in Him shouldn’t either. In spite of their continued conduct, I try to remain civil.

    PS: I replied to Manfreds post above and it seems to have gone missing? Any idea what happened?


  66. U.S.,

    So it would seem that I’ve represented your views fairly, and understood you correctly.

    i.) Please note that I specifically made reference to believers observing the Lord’s Incarnation, not Christmas, although I can see how the two concepts can (and have) become conflated over time. If a believer set aside a day a year, say for example September 29th, to reflect on the birth of the Lord, study the passages in Isaiah which prophesy, and the Gospels that announce His First Coming, while fasting in earnest prayer for His Second Coming with the host of heaven in the glory of His Father, would you find that practice to be sinful or otherwise objectionable in the light of Scripture?

    ii) Based on your understanding of Scripture would those 501c3 congregants who continued serving and giving with full knowledge of their church’s tax status who you state “are sinning against their own conscience” and who “could fall into even worse sin as a result” be a) giving evidence that they were never believers in the first place (false professors), or b) would they be true believers who are nevertheless falling away from the Lord into perdition/damnation (e.g. “lost their salvation”)?

    iii) Thanks for your reply on military service. If I’ve understood you correctly it seems that if one is a believer in Christ, then one should not take the oath of service required by the military, and therefore military service is sinful (against God’s will) for Christians. What about the oath to uphold the Constitution that’s required for many federal officials/agents, or sworn testimony required for witnesses in a court of law? I’m also still interested in your views on the other forms of governmental/political services that I mentioned beyond voting, rallying, electioneering type activity in my prior comment.

    I see your reply to Manfred posted, is there another one that’s missing?

    In Christ,


  67. Hey US,

    Is this your pastor?

    You sound rather paranoid of the government. I would suggest you consider Romans 13:1-7,

    “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.”

    In Christ,
    – Jeff H


  68. Hi Coram Deo,

    I feel like I’m back in school here. 🙂

    1) Why not keep the 7 Feasts of The Lord? Not to seek to be justified by the law but to follow the example of Jesus and the apostles. Zechariah 14 shows we will be keeping the Feast of Tabernacles during Christs thousand year reign on earth so I see no problem keeping them now as long as we aren’t trying to obtain salvation by it.

    I submit that the days refered to by Paul in Romans 14 were not pagan festivals in any way, shape or form.

    Romans 14:5,6 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

    How could one keep a pagan festival “to the Lord” when Paul clearly states that we are not to sit at the table of demons.

    1 Corinthians 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons.

    It seems that the Galatians were keeping days to seek to be justified by the law if read in context with the entire letter.

    Galatians 4:9-11 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

    2) I would have to say none of your selections fit. I would say they are backslidden when they know what they are doing is putting their stamp of approval on their pastors love of mammon.

    Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied from above.

    To remain in such a state for an extended length of time will harden one more and more as time goes by to the point where they may have such a seared conscience that they end up falling away.

    Jeremiah 8:5 Why has this people slidden back, Jerusalem, in a perpetual backsliding? They hold fast to deceit, They refuse to return.

    3) Thats what the Master said and who am I to argue. I’d lose anyway. Jesus said, “do not swear at all:” in reference to oaths.

    As far as other forms of governmental service I defer to:

    For the most part, sound words, although I strongly disagree with his statement, “divinely inspired Constitution”.

    There is only one document that was divinely inspired and that is the Word of God.

    The founders, which I refuse to call fathers, were freemasons seeking to establish “The New Atlantis” based on plans by Sir Francis Bacon.


    But that is a discussion that really shouldn’t take up any more of Pilgrims thread on “christ”-mass.

    Peruse the following site and read what the man exposes. Is it troubling? You bet. We’ve all been deceived in more ways than can be imagined.

    Do I agree with everything he writes? No. Only that which can be proven by scripture.

    BTW, that was the reply to Manfred. All is well.

    God Bless you


  69. I believe that we are to obey the laws of the land, to pray for those in authority, etc., I just do not choose to vote, (which is just as much my “right” as voting) I do not feel that my vote will “change” anything.
    This is my own opinion.
    I do not think it is the same thing to be a postal worker (which is a gov’t. position per se) and to not be involved in politics. (the process)
    Does that make sense?


  70. Hey UnprofitableServant,

    You haven’t responded to my post to you concerning Romans 13:1-7.

    Instead, we get more red herring, shotgun blast scriptural “confetti” (aptly labeled by Glen), and more over-the-top paranoid ramblings.

    The founders, which I refuse to call fathers, were freemasons seeking to establish “The New Atlantis” based on plans by Sir Francis Bacon.


    Peruse the following site and read what the man exposes. Is it troubling? You bet. We’ve all been deceived in more ways than can be imagined.


    I mean… I live near DC. The Washington monument is a pagan symbol. Yes, lots of the founding fathers were masons. Masonry is EVIL and not compatible with being a Christian. The mormon temple is here, too. None of that stuff is hidden or secret.

    I guess my point is that we are living in this world but our citizenship is elsewhere…

    We are PILGRIMS… ;o)

    …passing through.

    “Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And

    ‘If the righteous is scarcely saved,
    what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?’

    Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.”
    (1 Peter 4:12-19)


    In Christ,
    – Jeff


  71. Hi Berean Gal,

    Yes, we are to obey the law, but we are not living in a dictatorship under Ceasar like the apostles were….yet. The laws of Rome do not apply in the U.S.

    As the Constitution itself states:

    “This Constitution and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof…shall be the supreme law of the land

    and U.S. Code:

    “a statute may not operate in derogation of the Constitution”

    and finally American Jurisprudence:

    No one Is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.”

    If we disobey an unconstitutional law we may have to pay for it with fines or even jail time but we will be right in Gods eyes.

    Jeff H,

    No, thats not my pastor. Jesus is due to only being able to find Ezekiel 34 types at every turn.

    Did not Jefferson rightly say:

    “Does the government fear us? Or do we fear the government? When the people fear the government, tyranny has found victory. The federal government is our servant, not our master!

    In regards to Babylon, you said, “Seriously?”

    And my reply is, Yes, unfortunately. Seriously. Research it yourself without the help of a 501c3 pastor and you will be shocked to find out the truth.

    The Washington monument is only one of many occultic symbols in Washington but yet the church has been deceived into thinking we are some “New Israel”.

    That specific deception has it’s roots in British Israelism which we co-opted after the revolution.

    God Bless you.

    In addition,

    ACTUAL FOOTAGE Pastor Beaten Tased by Border Patrol DPS

    In regards to the video above, if anyone believes that the ever increasing tyranny shown is Constitutional, than may I suggest reading a quote from one of the founders.

    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety”. – Benjamin Franklin

    I seem to recall reading something about those who say, “peace and safety” in the scriptures…..

    And just as Christians twist the scriptures, our government twists the Constitution to suit their ends.

    Nevertheless, just as the scriptures don’t change to fit the morals or lack therof of modern society, neither does the constitution.

    “The Constitution is a written instrument. As such, its meaning does not alter. That which it meant when it was adopted, it means now.”
    A good short video by Paul Washer

    Persecution or a Great Awakening

    Will we stand with God no matter what the cost or will we stand with the coming beast government?

    Don’t interpret the scriptures as it is specifically forbidden by the scriptures themslves.

    As Paul Washer once wisely commented to a young man at a college,

    “Young man, I didn’t interpret the text, I read it.”

    See :35 second mark on above video.
    FYI: There must be something wrong with WordPress as some of my posts go through fine and others don’t.

    Any ideas?


  72. No Glenn,

    I simply understand the scriptures in the context that they were written and not according to 501c3 corporations that twist the scriptures to their own destruction.

    And you are correct about one word, “biased”.

    Biased towards the will of God and against the will of man.


  73. US
    I don’t get my context from 501c3 corporations – I get it straight from scripture. Your bias is based on your legalistic interpretations, as well as your legalistic interpretations of what people are doing.

    Celebrating the birth of the Lord (an NO, no one knows the exact date contrary to your claim) may have begun as a conciliation to pagans, but that doesn’t mean those who celebrate the Lord’s birth are practicing anything pagan. Your accusations that they are do so is nothing but legalism.

    And every other topic discussed here has been handled by you in the same way – you make gross judgments of people’s motives and heart attitudes which is something you have no right to do, and are even condemned from doing so by Scripture.


  74. UnprofitableServant,

    I simply understand the scriptures in the context that they were written

    Uh, no.

    You have taken scripture twisting to new depths in order to substantiate your paranoid prattle.

    You have demonstrated a lack of hermeneutical skills and seem unable to engage in adept rebuttal. You use simplistic quote-mining in order to conduct ad-hominem cheap-shots.

    You are not ready for the meat of God’s Word. Go back and nurse some more… please.

    In Christ Jesus,
    – Jeff H


  75. Hi Jeff H,

    “hermeneutical skills”

    Hermeneutics is used mainly today as a system of learning how to twist the scriptures to ones own destruction.

    I don’t believe in literal interpretation, I believe in literal reading.

    Sorry, never went to cemetary, er.. semitary…I mean seminary..

    I guess I’m in good company though, neither did Jesus or the apostles, many of which were fisherman.

    BTW, I did reply to your post above but WordPress seems to have lost it somewhere in cyberspace.


    You said,

    “Celebrating the birth of the Lord () may have begun as a conciliation to pagans, but that doesn’t mean those who celebrate the Lord’s birth are practicing anything pagan.”



  76. I’ve lost track of what has or hasn’t been covered on this (and the other) thread, so forgive me if I’m covering any old ground, but does anyone remember “the spirit of Christmas”? That warm, fuzzy, generous, cheerful, forgiving (depending on who we were willing to forgive), return to childhood fascination and better times? That magical time of year when those of us who had drunk, abusive parents had a respite of peace in the home and some semblance of love that we never experienced the rest of the year? It’s that “spirit” that moved Ebenezer Scrooge’s heart to soften toward others. And which enlarged the Grinch’s heart to join the Christmas festivities.

    But is the “Christmas spirit” with all it’s love, joy, peace, forgiveness, generosity, etc., actually the Holy Spirit? Let’s see:

    The “Christmas spirit” can be tapped by anyone, regardless of their religious beliefs (or no religious belief at all), if they will just “get into the spirit of Christmas”. The Holy Spirit on the other hand, is given by Jesus to His followers only.

    The “Christmas spirit” celebrates and enthusiastically encourages worldliness (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life). The Holy Spirit calls us to deny worldliness and put our flesh to death.

    The “Christmas spirit” mixes in the sacred (things regarding Christ) with the profane (things of the world) as well as things of Satan (heathen religious practices and rituals). The Holy Spirit condemns all such mixture.

    The “Christmas spirit” focuses on the temporal. The Holy Spirit draws our focus to the eternal.

    The “Christmas spirit” keeps Christ a perpetually helpless infant. The Holy Spirit draws our focus to Jesus as Lord, God Almighty, and Judge of all Creation.

    The “Christmas spirit” is exemplified by a benevolent being who is all-knowing, all-present, spans time, and rewards you if you’ve been “good”, and merely gives you a lump of coal if you’ve been “bad”. The Holy Spirit does not reward good works, but says all our good works are as filthy rags, the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ and His work on the cross.

    This is but a sampling of the contrasts between “that Christmas spirit” and the Holy Spirit. But it hopefully is sufficient to show that when people “feel that Christmas spirit”, it isn’t the Holy Spirit they are feeling. Rather than getting into the Christmas spirit once a year, let us walk by a different, Holy Spirit every day of the year.


  77. Hermeneutics is used mainly today as a system of learning how to twist the scriptures to ones own destruction.


    I’m sure every theologian would agree with you. Rather than examine the context of what God is saying… letting Scripture interpret Scripture, we should all just rip quotes out of context and make the words say what we want them to… just like you do!

    Yeah, since wiki says it, it MUST be true!

    I don’t believe in literal interpretation, I believe in literal reading.

    I think you just broke your own rule… oops.

    Sorry, never went to cemetary, er.. semitary…I mean seminary..

    Tee-hee… you are so clever. sigh.

    Well, I’ve never been to Seminary either. So what?

    I guess I’m in good company though, neither did Jesus or the apostles, many of which were fisherman.

    Nice straw man. But I guess 2 Peter 1:20 doesn’t apply to you, so you’re permitted to make God’s Word sing and dance to your tune?

    BTW, I did reply to your post above but WordPress seems to have lost it somewhere in cyberspace.

    Maybe the heresy filter kicked in…

    … finally.


  78. Jeff H,

    Paul didn’t think much of his time at Pharisee school… or if you like, seminary.

    Philippians 3:5-8 KJV 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law , blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

    1 Corinthians 1:20 NIV Where is the wise person? Where is the educated person? Where are the great thinkers of this world? Hasn’t God made the wisdom of the world foolish?

    Jeff H,

    May I suggest that you don’t even care who is right or wrong.

    Have you even read any of the links I posted in the previous post or are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing like Glenn and 072591?

    Modern hermeneutics from

    “With respect to a wide range of issues, this have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too sort of hermeneutics has found ways of manipulating Scripture to suit contemporary thought.

    *It treats much of the Bible as worthless for doctrine.
    *It reformulates Old Testament prophecies so that they do not appear to make verifiable predictions of events in the distant future.
    *It makes Genesis fit the modern ideas that the species of life appeared gradually over a long period of time, and that any flood must have been local in extent.
    *It casts aside any moral teaching of the Bible that offends modern sensibilities.
    *It limits the daily relevance of Scripture to a believer’s needs by denying that a text can have any meanings or applications beyond the supposed immediate intent of the human author.”


  79. Wow. Has this comment thread been hijacked or what?

    My intentions for posting this was not for the comments to turn ugly and traverse down tangents of conspiratorial theories. Some of the nastiness and argumentative comments cause me concern and must grieve God, not to mention drive away unbelievers who may be reading them.

    The debate over whether or not to celebrate Christmas is not trivial, and I believe it actually leads to good discussions, but this current discussion is being marred by the tone and content of some of the other comments.

    I recommend we all agree to end the current “argument” on this particular thread before it continues to deteriorate.

    If some wish to continue the discussion (and are benefiting from it) I have another post expected to be published this weekend on the same subject. However, if that discussion also dissolves into what this one has I will have no choice but to disable the comments.

    – Pilgrim


  80. Hi Pilgrim,

    I have tried to remain civil in the midst of this but sometimes it is difficult in calling a spade a spade without offending. I apoligize for going off topic.

    If possible, could you comment on 1 Corinthians 10:28′s instruction to “do not eat it” if you know are informed about the food being sacrifced to idols?

    That would clear up alot of the excuses I think.

    God Bless you


  81. My eyes are getting blurry…

    That should have read.

    “If possible, could you comment on 1 Corinthians 10:28′s instruction to “do not eat it” if you are informed about the food being sacrifced to idols?”


  82. Well, at our house, let’s see…

    Tree: No.

    Gift exchanging: Yes.

    Santa: NO!!!!

    Church services: We love being there anyway, so…

    Lights: Only if the kids (ages 31 and 18) put them up.

    Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ: ABSOLUTELY!

    God is good!

    So… we don’t really make a big deal about it. In fact, many years we travel on Christmas and New Years days because there are many seats available.

    Our Lord’s birth (becoming incarnate) was surely very significant – God humbling Himself and entering His creation!

    However, His death and resurrection are so much more important… just look at Scripture!

    In Jesus,
    – Jeff H


  83. While my kids were growing up we rarely celebrated the Lord’s birth on Christmas day because I worked every Christmas until they were in their teens. We picked a day in the same week to do our celebration at home. Had a birthday cake, read the story in Luke, sang Christmas carols together, etc

    Tree, yes because we liked it as a winter time decoration. It was usually up right after Thanksgiving and stayed up until mid-January. It was called a “Christmas tree” because that’s what everyone called them, but we never associated it with anything to do with the celebration of the birth of Christ.

    Gifts, yes. Simple, and until older almost all were home-made. The teaching was an analogy between God giving us the greatest gift of his son, so we can give gifts to each other in celebration. Not much was spent because we preferred to make their own birthdays more about gifts to them.

    Church services were always focussed on the reason for the birth of Christ, and the family attended even if I was unable. We never went to a yah-yah church.

    Lights – only on the tree as part of the decorations.

    Creche – yes, so as to have a visual teaching aid for the kids. Rarely since they left.

    But everything was Christ-focused, not pagan or practicing anything pagans used to practice. Our time was spent teaching about how thankful we should be that Christ came. And yes, resurrection day was even more important.


  84. Thanks guys. I do appreciate the simplicity and gratitude you exemplify. It means alot and I will rembember these things as I am redefining this whole issue for myself and my family.


  85. D,
    Firstly, while decorations used at Christmas time are things such found in nature – i.e., created by God – the swastika is a man-made symbol of evil. So the analogy fails there. Otherwise, celebrate it on any day of the year.

    But if the term “Christmas” is ungodly and shouldn’t be used, then what do we as Christian use to name the days of the week? Or even the months?
    Sunday is the Day of the Sun
    Monday is the Day of the Moon
    Tuesday is the Day of Mars
    Wednesday is the god Woden’s Day (Mercury)
    Thursday is the god Thor’s Day (Jupiter)
    Friday is the god Freya’s Day (Venus)
    Saturday is Saturn’s Day
    January belongs to the god Janus
    February comes from the Roman februa purification ceremonies conducted that month
    March belongs to the god Mars
    April probably comes from Apru, an Etruscan version of Aphrodite.
    May is the month of the goddess Maius/Maia
    June is named for the goddess Juno
    July is named for Julius Caesar, who considered himself to be a god
    August is named for Augustus Caesar

    Notice how many of the names for these days and months come from pagan astrology which names planets after their gods, while the rest are names of gods or pagan ceremonies.

    All the names of the week, and eight of the names of months, are of pagan origin, just as the name of Christmas is of “Christianized” pagan origin. What is a Christian to do?!?!


  86. D,

    Don’t be disuaded from your convictions with vain arguments.

    Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

    1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge–

    I was waiting for the excuse of the calander to be used as I have seen it before.

    Take note D that Christians did not invent the calander and we are forced to use it as a reference point as we have no other dating system to use.

    Some would reason that just because certain things aren’t mentioned in the scripture, we are free to abuse them to our hearts desire.

    For example, the following things aren’t mentioned in scripture:

    Cigarettes, cigars and other forms of tobacco.

    So we should be able to get away with smoking like a chimney and because God didn’t mention it in His Word, He can’t rebuke us for it.


    Jesus specifically told Peter to “put your sword in it’s place” but He never said, “Peter pardner, yall better put that thar shootin iron in it’s place”.

    So, by that reasoning D, you should be able to “pack heat” in yer holster and never worry about any such rebuke that Peter received.

    Those were just a couple examples. I don’t want to go on…

    But remember, as long as certain things aren’t mentioned in scripture D, you should be able to trick Jesus into approving any thing your little heart desires.

    God Bless you D


  87. Read Luke 22:36 where Jesus tells them to buy a sword. Commentators say this is for defense. Peter was rebuked for trying to interfere with Jesus’ mission.

    Justifying the use of the calendar names is exactly what I knew you would do also. But if all of society uses the title “Christmas” for the 25th of December, then it sure simplifies conversation to use the same name. And no one forces you to use the calendar names; by your logic you should be using numbers for each day: 1st day of the week, 6th month, etc. You legalistically accuse people of idolatry because they use the name of Christmas and then you hypocritically justify using the names of days and months, claiming we are being forced to use them.

    As for why we continue to use December 25th, we just plunder the Egyptians!


  88. I hope this works alright…I copied and pasted it from an email I got from Scott Johnson and thought I’d share it for anyone who cares to read. (contains X-mass stuff too.)

    OTTAWA — This year’s winter solstice — an event that will occur next Tuesday — will coincide with a full lunar eclipse in a union that hasn’t been seen in 456 years.

    The celestial eccentricity holds special significance for spiritualities that tap into the energy of the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year and a time that is associated with the rebirth of the sun.

    “It’s a ritual of transformation from darkness into light,” says Nicole Cooper, a high priestess at Toronto’s Wiccan Church of Canada. “It’s the idea that when things seem really bleak, (it) is often our biggest opportunity for personal transformation.

    “The idea that the sun and the moon are almost at their darkest at this point in time really only further goes to hammer that home.”

    Cooper said Wiccans also see great significance in the unique coupling of the masculine energy of the sun and the feminine energy of the moon — transformative energies that she plans to incorporate into the church’s winter-solstice rituals.

    Dec 22
    Winter Solstice
    (Sabbat Festival)
    (Feast Day)
    Sexual emphasis
    any age (male or female, human or animal)

    Dec 24
    Demon Revels
    Da Meur
    High Grand Climax
    any age (male or female, human and/or animal)

    Christmas Eve
    Receive body parts as Christmas gifts
    infant male

    Well, the Wiccans are sure happy about the lunar eclipse happening during the solstice…as this day is full of orgies. They love to worship the things God created. They celebrate their ‘holy’ days with nature.

    “Wiccans don’t think of things as being good or evil — they just are. Our experience of them makes them positive or negative for us.”

    The winter solstice also played an important role in Greco-Roman rituals.

    “It’s seen as a time of rebirth or renewal because, astrologically, it’s a time where the light comes back,” said Shane Hawkins, a professor of Greek and Roman studies at Carleton University in Ottawa.

    For the ancient Romans, it was also a time of great feasting and debauchery.

    “If (the eclipse) happened on the 21st, they might well have been drunk,” he said.

    A lunar eclipse taking place during the solstice is not an event Hawkins has seen in research, but he said it would have been viewed as something special.

    The last time the two celestial events happened at the same time was in AD 1554, according to NASA.

    The eclipse will start just after midnight Eastern Time on Tuesday, with the main event starting at 1:30 a.m. ET and lasting until 5:30 a.m., when the moon reappears.


    1. Winter Solstice — 13 weeks

    a. December 21- 22

    — Yule — When the sun begins its northward trek in the sky, and days began to grow longer again, pagans celebrated the Winter Solstice by burning the Yule log. Since the sun had reversed itself and was now rising in the sky, pagans believed this was a sign that the human sacrifices carried out in Samhain (Halloween) had been accepted by the gods.

    We continue to sing: “Deck the halls with boughs of holly … troll the ancient Yuletide carol … See the blazing Yule before us. Fa la la la la la la la.” [“Pagan Traditions of the Holidays”, David Ingraham, p. 71]

    The Roman Catholic Church later changed the day of celebration to December 25, calling it Christmas.

    Consider the pagan roots of our popular symbols of Christmas:

    (1) Christmas Tree — The sacred tree of the winter-god; Druids believed the spirit of their gods resided in the tree. Most ancient pagans knew the tree represented Nimrod reincarnated into Tammuz! Pagans also looked upon the tree as a phallic symbol.

    (2) Star — Pentalpha, the five-pointed star. The pentalpha is a powerful symbol of Satan, second only to the hexagram. The star is the sacred symbol of Nimrod, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.

    (3) Candles represent the sun-gods’ newly-born fire & a phallic symbol. Pagans the world over love and use candles in their rituals and ceremonies. Certain colors are also thought to represent specific powers. The extensive use of candles is usually a very good indication that the service is pagan, no matter what the outward trappings might be.

    (4) Mistletoe is the sacred plant of the Druids, symbolizing pagan blessings of fertility; thus, kissing under the mistletoe is the first step in the reproductive cycle! Witches also use the white berries in potions.

    (5) Wreaths are circular, and so they represent the female sexual organs. Wreaths are associated with fertility and the “circle of life”.

    (6) Santa Claus — Former Satanists have told me that “Santa” is an anagram for “Satan”. In the New Age, the god, “Sanat Kamura”, is most definitely an anagram for “Satan”. The mythical attributes and powers ascribed to Santa are eerily close to those possessed by Jesus Christ.

    (7) Reindeer are horned animals representing the “horned-god” or the “stag-god” of pagan religion! Santa’s traditional number of reindeer in his team is eight (8); in Satanic gematria, eight is the number of “new beginnings”, or the cycle of reincarnation. The Illuminati views the number “eight” as a symbol of their New World Order.

    (8) Elves are imp-like creatures who are Santa’s (Satan’s) little helpers. They are also demons.

    (9) Green and Red are the traditional colors of the season, as they are the traditional pagan colors of winter. Green is Satan’s favorite color, so it is appropriate it should be one of the traditional colors for Christmas; red is the color of human blood, Satan’s highest form of sacrifice — for this reason, Communism adopted red as it main color!

    (10) December 25 is known as the “nativity” of the sun. This date is the birthday of Tammuz, the son, the reincarnation of the sun god. Traditionally, December 21 is known as Yule. The Roman Catholic Church moved the celebration of Yule to December 25.

    (11) December 25 is also known to the Romans as “Saturnalia”, a time of deliberate debauchery. Drinking through repeated toasting — known as ‘wassail’ — was a key to the debauchery of this celebration. Fornication was symbolized by the mistletoe, and the entire event was finished with a Great Feast, the Christmas Dinner.

    (12) Even the name, “Christmas” is pagan! “Christi” meant “Christ”, while “Mas” meant Mass. Since all pagan Masses are commemorating “death”, the name, “Christmas” literally means the “death of Christ”. A deeper meaning lies in the mention of “Christ” without specifying Jesus. Thus, Antichrist is in view here; the pagans celebrate “Christmas” as a celebration of their coming Antichrist, who will deal a death blow to the Jesus Christ of Christianity.

    Early American Christian Pilgrims refused to celebrate this day.

    _X-Mas Biggest Pagan Holyday – Dr. Scott Johnson – 00.mp3

    X-Mas: The Biggest Pagan Holiday/Holyday of the Year PDF

    Even illuminists and satanists who had a true conversion to Christianity won’t celebrate “Christian” substitutes for pagan ‘holidays’ as they are the same ‘holidays’ they celebrated in their lost state. Have you ever heard Doc Marquis tell of the ‘holidays’ he celebrated as an illuminist? He did an excellent teaching on them. It can be found online.

    This should disturb anyone who knows the Lord and is still holding to any worldly excuse of a celebration. It was hard for me to give up ‘holidays’ too…but I know that I do not want to do anything displeasing to the Lord. Now that I haven’t celebrated in a few years, it is easier to forgo them.


  89. Glenn and Unprofitable Servant,

    It is obvious the two of you will not come to an agreement on this issue; may I suggest that you both walk away from this? What will either of you gain by continuing to respond to each other’s postings? Please, remember the teachings of Scripture, to love one another, to think of others as better than you, to overlook an offense. Let’s not carry this to the extreme; it certainly isn’t worth dividing over, or even more serious than this, sinning against our God by accusing and spewing out hate.

    If the two of you do not walk away, DefCon will have no other choice but to either prevent you from posting or close the commentary. We certainly do not want it to get to that point, however that’s better than letting a brother possibly sin against God.

    Let us not forget how important loving one another is, true love overlooks an offense.



  90. Not of this world,
    Here’s the thing: Those of us who celebrate the birth of our Lord do not sing yuletide songs, nor use yule logs, etc. As I pointed out in my blog article what is known as the “Christmas tree” did not have its origins in pagan celebrations. Whether pagans used trees is irrelevant. All plants are God’s creation and we may use them for however we want as decorations so long as there is no intent of worshiping a false god. I’ve always liked evergreen branches formed in various shapes for decoration – including wreaths with no pagan thoughts behind it – for year-round decorations because I love the smell of pine, especially fir.

    I think worrying over whether a pagan someplace celebrated something on a day I’d like to use for a celebration to the Lord is a silly thing to worry about. The belief that using the same day or even the same articles as a pagan uses for something else is really charging someone with guilt by association.

    Stars, whether 5- or 6-pointed may indeed have occult meanings to some people. I dare say the sign of the cross is also used for the occult. The shape is used by more non-occultists – i’m sure – just to represent the astrological body we call a star.

    In the secular celebrations using Santa Claus, your litany of evil associations is a wee bit more amusing. Santa is NOT an anagram for Satan. Santa is of Latin origin and means “saint.” Santa Claus originated as a mutilation of Saint Nicolas. Reindeer do not represent a horned god – they are just reindeer. The choice of use for those animals is because of their association with northern territories and Santa comes from the North Pole.

    The “MASS” part of Christmas has nothing to do with death. Mass is simply from the Latin for dismissal, such as the end of the liturgy in Catholic mass. I could go on with demonstrating how much this gets to be one conspiracy theory after another with revisionist history as to origins but there is no point. I am much more concerned with the undermining of the foundational teachings of the church which is happening everywhere.


    If you’ll notice, I have been ignoring US on this issue as I’ve decide to spend my time more productively. However, Taking a scripture out of context to say one is going against God to own a weapon certainly needed to be addressed. And I used that incident to point him to my article about Christian liberty in the matter of Christmas. I have no intention of any more response to US.


  91. I sent that message to everyone, not just you, sir. I do not wish to argue.

    I do not try to work out someone else’s salvation, only mine. I will follow the path the Lord has led me to-though none go with me, still I will follow-no turning back, no turning back. I have far greater things to contend with on this narrow path than the celebration of pagan holidays-I have made it over that hurdle. I know in my walk-the path continues to get narrower and lonlier.

    I do believe that God has trumpeters calling out a warning to those who have ears to hear. I also believe that He is calling out a remnant in these last days. A bride without spot or wrinkle is what He is returning for. I pray I remain in Christ and follow Him to the end. I pray I have the strength always, to lay down those things He has called me to lay down. What is any of it worth anyway compared to Christ Jesus our Lord?


  92. Glenn,
    I am grateful that you say you’ll no longer engage u.s. in this matter.
    Thank you for your ‘behind the scenes’ response. I do pray for you both: blessings to both of you as well.
    not of this world:
    again, well said. I agree, Christ is calling His remnant out of this world. This became even more clear to me earlier as I studied 1Peter 1:17d, ‘conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile’. This world is not our home, nor are the pagan traditions that pass as ‘Christian’ traditions we should observe. If one truly wants to honor Christ’s birth, why do it the same time pagans do? I too pray for our Lord to strengthen me and keep me ’til the end.



  93. mom4truth, I like the golden calf analogy!
    I realize that some will never give it up (idolatry), but I try and
    live in obedience and speak as the Lord Jesus leads.
    After that, I just have to WALK the walk. All the talk in the world
    is nothing unless I do.

    Praise God for Truth!
    And true liberty through His Word, the Lord Jesus Christ.


  94. Mom4truth,
    I think you are being quite harsh to call my defense of practicing a Christ-centered Christmas as “excuses” and “a familiar spirit,” that is, claiming a demonic backing. Just because you don’t agree with something someone says, that doesn’t mean the person has a familiar spirit.

    My explanations are not “excuses” – they are explanations as to why it is a matter of Christian liberty.
    For all of you who call it idolatry, I think you need to read a definition of the word “idolatry.” One must be worshiping or participating in the worship of a false God to be committing idolatry. This is not what any Christian is doing by celebrating the birth of Christ. One can eat the meat sacrificed to idols knowing that idols are nothing. Perhaps you could read my post on the subject at

    I’d suggest you also consider Paul’s teachings when he says that those who are weak in their faith in relation to these issues are sinning when they denigrate those who exercise their liberty.


  95. UnprofitableServant,

    I think your last comment has crossed a line. As an editor and author on this post, I have watched you make comments that fall far short of bringing honor and glory to the Lord Jesus Christ. Your attitude has often been stringent and even your responses as to what you would like to do to others does not reveal the fruit of the Spirit but the works of the flesh. There are far more posts on this site where many have stood courageously for the truth and that includes both men and women. To insinuate that there are no courageous men here because of your own presuppositions places the “apology” that you gave in grave danger of being nothing more than mere words.

    It would wise for you to realize that even your screen name should reflect that you truly are nothing more than an unprofitable servant who is in the employ of the King of kings and Lord of lords. To constantly denigrate others who stand for biblical truths and even to denigrate those who may at this present time be weaker brethren is to place a different spin on your name, and that would be to be unprofitable. Even the apostle Paul when speaking of John Mark, after all that young man did, eventually found reason to state that he was profitable for the sake of the ministry.

    The vacillating that you are doing brings no joy or benefit to anybody here. We would ask that you truly search your heart before coming back here and posting the kind of comments which you continue to do without provocation except for the fact that it goes against your personal convictions. Even The Pilgrim stated his decision in regards to Christmas was his and not to make the decisions for others who may not see the same way. At least, he was gracious in his deportment which is far more than we can say for the constant hijacking of this website.

    The Desert Pastor


  96. R&R,

    Just a question – and I mean this sincerely – are you seriously saying to Mom4Truth that by suggesting that Glenn has a “familar spirit” (a demon), and is worshipping a “golden calf” (committing idolatry) as “exemplified by those stubborn Israelites going a-whoring after Baal and Ashteroth a.k.a. X-mas and Easter” and that his reasons for observing Christmas consist of “excuses” (for his idolatry), and that Berean Gal’s hearty amen chorus “that some will never give it up (idolatry)”, also in obvious reference to Glenn since that’s who Mom4Truth was addressing…are you really saying they (and UnprofitableServant!) are somehow “taking a lot of flack” and following in the Master’s footsteps? Really?!?

    Because it seems to me that throughout these various threads Glenn has been mercilessly trashed, anathematized, ridiculed, belittled, had his faith in Christ questioned, and has been threatened with bodily harm for simply stating his belief that the observance, and non-observance, of Christmas are both matters of Christian liberty.

    Frankly I’m appalled by the un-Christlike attitudes and level of vitriol present in many of these threads, and I’d like to extend a personal apology to Glenn for the abuse he’s taken here. I’m persuaded that extreme leniency has been granted for many, many folks to dog-pile on in violation of our stated Rules of Engagement at his expense, and to his detriment. As a team we offered grace to the most frequent and grievious offender, UnprofitableServant, when he offered what at least appeared on the surface to be a sincere apology with repentance, but it would appear that his words were hollow, and his committment short-lived.

    Glenn, I’m grieved by the poor manner in which you’ve been generally treated here at DefCon in the Christmas metas, and I hope you’ll accept my sincere apology. I assure you that all future personal attacks will be deleted immediately. As always all commentors are encouraged to set forth postive and negative arguments, array their data, mine quotes, and extract facts and figures, but no more ad hominem attacks will see the light of day in these threads, and if they do they won’t last any longer than it takes for me to find them and delete them.

    In Him,


  97. CD,

    First off, I didn’t read Mom4Truth accusing Glen of having a familiar spirit but this conversation had the same familiar spirit as the one she had previously mentioned.

    Secondly, I am a bit of an oddball. I tend to look at life as black and white and it drives people nuts around me. I think, personally according to what I have read, studied and learned through the Scripture that we as Christians, representatives of Christ, we are in the world but not of the world. If we know something has pagan, occultic roots, we should not be following after it. What’s the difference between celebrating Christmas, Easter, Halloween and other holidays and the Israelites following after Molech, and other pagan rituals and religions? We know it’s wrong, why do it? I am not perfect, I know that, and I don’t want to rip anyone, forgive me if this is the impression you have received. If a Christian marketing company markets “Christian” alcohol, do we buy into it? We know certain things are wrong and we don’t do it. Why does this stop with Christmas and other well established holidays and traditions? I agree that many people (not singling out Glen) refuse to rid their lives of traditions and desires and justify why they continue doing these things. I see it all the time and I am also guilty of this. BUT we know better. We know certain styles of music, dress, language and behaviour is wrong…what’s the difference? I see apologies from U.S., but nothing from anyone else. Is he the only bad guy here? We are all guilty of carrying this ugliness on, and I for one will have no more part of it. I apologize again for adding fuel to the fire and I stop here and now.


  98. Thanks R&R…you have some good, valid reasons for your position – as some of the other participants in various threads have had – and Glenn has some good, valid reasons for his position as well. It comes back around to not going beyond what is written when binding men’s consciences. It’s important to identify what is positively sinful according to the Scriptures, and what is a matter of conscience (Romans 14-15; Col. 2:16-23). Surely you can see the difference in Glenn’s observance of the Lord’s Incarnation, and him sacrificing his children to Molech, can’t you?

    In Him,


  99. “I see apologies from U.S., but nothing from anyone else. Is he the only bad guy here? We are all guilty of carrying this ugliness on”

    I — and others — have apologized. We have acknowledged our parts in this on-going sin.

    Jeff H December 18, 2010 at 12:55 pm
    “Thank you, CD, for holding up the mirror to show me my ugly reflection.

    Your gentle reminder is much appreciated, and I have taken my offenses to the Lord.”


    072591 December 18, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    “Isn’t it interesting how the more controversial and unsure the subject matter, the harder we fight for our convictions and opinions? (I’ll include myself in that assessment.) Sometimes I have to ask myself: is this really where I stand, or am I trying to convince myself by a majority vote?

    The harder part for me is that when a fight turns ugly, I tend to get uglier, to treat it as a no holds barred confrontation – made worse by the fact that the Internet never picks up facial expressions and nonverbal cues to show that a line has been crossed. I do tend toward a philosophy of “scorched earth” toward heated conversations and do not like to back down – especially “when I’m in the right.”

    But as CD pointed out, as long as we hold the 10 truths he pointed out, the other matters are debatable and not to be fighting over; certainly debating, as some are more right than others, but not to the point of violence or denouncement.

    So yes, this means I have to play nicer now. 😦 I’ll learn to live with it, repent of my harsh tones, and let Christ do the work of breaking my pride.”

    – Jeff H

    I’m just sayin’…


  100. mom4truth,

    For an explanation of why your latest comment will never see the light of day please re-read my two most recent comments, in particular this one. Your peculiar beliefs about issues of “do not handle, do not taste, do not touch” – no matter how fervently or deeply you personally believe them – still doesn’t make them binding on men’s consciences. But your expression of your personal beliefs wasn’t the reason your latest comment was held, rather it was the ugly, scolding, self-righteous nature of your rejoinder that crossed the line, again.

    After discussing the unfortunate turn of far too many of these combox discussions with The Pilgrim, I hope to shed some further light on some of these contentious matters in a separate post in the near future.

    In Him,


  101. I guess I wonder how someone who celebrates a day to the Lord can be accused of idolatry, etc when that person does nothing which was supposedly associated with that day by pagans. The biblical references were about those who actually participated in the actions of the idol worshipers. I have not, nor ever will, do any of the things associated with Saturnalia or other pagan festivals and yet I’m supposedly committing idolatry because of the day I choose.

    My whole intent in this string has been to demonstrate that there is nothing wrong with NOT celebrating Christmas, nor is there anything wrong with doing so. I don’t condemn those who do not do so, nor do I expect condemnation from those who don’t.

    If my words were harsh to anyone, I apologize. Paul stated quite plainly that we are to not judge the Lord’s servant in these matters.


  102. I read through all these post And I have come to this conclusion. That we all had better take to Gods word than the things of this world. And as for Christ birth date, He as exsited for all time and his kingdom is with out end.
    Rev And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
    For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
    And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
    And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
    And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
    For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
    And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


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