Joel Kramer and Sourceflix have hit another home run with their latest release, The Bible vs. Joseph Smith.
DefCon has been pleased to feature Joel Kramer’s past documentaries DNA vs. the Book of Mormon, The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon, and Lifting the Veil on Polygamy, and now The Bible vs. Joseph Smith continues in the excellence of quality, production, and product.
Joel Kramer sits down with a lifelong Mormon and puts Bible prophets and Mormon prophets to the Deuteronomy 18 test “to see which prophets are truly speaking for God.”
This video not only deals with such problems as the Book of Mormon error of stating that Jesus was born in Jerusalem, but it also deals with Joseph Smith’s problems of false prophecy, so clearly in fact, that I suggest to you that this video conclusively proves that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
“In a conversation between a Christian and a Mormon, the prophets of both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are put head to head in a test to see which prophets are truly speaking for God. If even one prophecy fails to come true, that prophet is a false prophet, and must be put to death.”
Christ Alone Wyoming 
Bravo! we need one called The Bible vs Kenneth hagin
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Like to know if still could get city of dvd?
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Yes, David, you can order it here.
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I am so glad that you have done the study on the Book of Mormon. How ever I believe there is more you need to understand before you tell others how they can be saved. If you read the book of Acts you will find the truth about salvation. Also in Matt when Jesus told his followers what to preach and teach is not what you are telling people. It is my hope and prayer that you re read the bible and the words of Jesus and of the Apostle Paul and see if you can find more to that God would have you and all sinners do to become adopted into the family of God. I say this with the most loving heartfelt emotion that our Lord and Savior died for all of man kind. Please read the bible and study for your self what Jesus told his disciples before he went to be with his Father. It is not God’s will that any should perish but have everlasting life. This I pray in the Name of Jesus Christ.
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Eugenea,
Maybe you should try to explain what you mean before just leaving remarks about what we are or are not telling people. That would help us to formulate an appropriate and biblical response. Thank you for stopping by.
The Desert Pastor
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Universalism?
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What a horribly biased, manipulating, internally flawed, and distorting piece of garbage. There is no effort whatsoever to present comparative facts allowing the viewer to draw their own conclusions. Most people who watch this are hate filled, and looking for some semblance of evidence to fuel their hatred. This is totally lacking is scholarship. It is religious pornography! Shame on Mr. Kramer and all of those involved. You have embarrased the entire Christian community. My appologies to the Mormons you have so grossly misrepresented.
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Are you the same John Wilson from UVU in Orem, Utah?
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I completely agree with John Wilson. Were the Bible and so-called “Historic Christianity” treated with the same “scholarship”, the non-Mormon Christian world would howl in disgust and soundly condemn the authors.
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What a coincidence. This post hasn’t received a comment in ages and all of a sudden two comments bashing this film (void of any examples of error in the film of course) appear within hours of each other. And both commenters are from Utah. What are the odds?
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For John and Don:
So, rather than just making general, unsubstantiated assertions, how about instead you itemize the errors?
Why is it “hate filled” to speak the truth? Oh, that’s the victim card, isn’t it? No one could possibly have a genuine reason for saying anything wrong about the LDS faith – it has to be because of hate, doesn’t it?
The film is 100% accurate. If you have proof to the contrary, then demonstrate as much instead of playing victim with useless rhetoric.
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Hello. A message for Pilgram and Glenn. First, no, I am not the same John Wilson that went to UVU in Orem, Utah, nor do I know the individual. As far as responding with details, that is more than a little complicated to do on a message board where the film was two hours long. If you are seriously interested in a detailed discussion on the flaws in the Joel Kramer film, then go to FairLDS.org, and you will find a very detailed and well documented discussion on it by a man named Smoot, if I recall correctly. If you will take the time to read it, (it is rather lengthly), then you will find there are logical, rational, documented, and well thought out contrary opinions to what Mr. Kramer touts. I doubt you will believe what you read, but at least you would come away with an understanding of what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe, and that there is a biblical basis to their beliefs. Choosing not to believe what another person believes is a moral and Constitutional right. Choosing to say false and mean spirited things about others beliefs, though legal, is certainly not Christian.
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John,
Firstly, FAIR is not an objective source and I am very familiar with the way they twist history and everything else to make all the LDS stuff sound good. I don’t waste my time with them any more.
Now, I am an ex-Mormon and have studied the LDS for almost 40 years since leaving the church. I found nothing at all in that film that was false or misleading.
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Now isn’t THAT convenient, Glenn C.? Summarily dismiss an accurate rebuttal from FAIR after asking for comments. That’s an excellent example of why it is often a waste of time to deal with non-LDS, anti-LDS Christians. By the same logic, I can reject the movie in question, can I not? After all, I’ve been a “Mormon” for 42 years, and as for Joel Kramer’s movie, “…I am very familiar with the way they twist history and everything else…”
And in response to “Pilgrim”, why would you be amazed that two people would comment so close together? After all, we get email updates of comments as they are posted. Take a deep breath!
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I didn’t ask for a rebuttal from FAIR – I asked YOU to give me evidence of where it was wrong. I am not going to wade through FAIR’s nonsense – I’ve been through their stuff too many times. That’s like asking Joseph Smith if he was a necromancer – you get a dance as to why he really wasn’t.
I don’t send you elsewhere to get my rebuttals, I don’t expect to be sent elsewhere. Think for yourself.
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Dear John:
Your original comment was very suspicious and your second comment did nothing to diminish my suspicions that you’re actually a Mormon (in spite of your comment being worded to appear otherwise). Additionally, your scathing indictment of the film came without any example (anyone can carelessly hurl a litany of insults).
When I made a point of your comment being devoid of any examples of these claims you made against it, you directed me to a Mormon website. I was hoping you (the one who initiated this exchange with your allegations against the film) would at least be able to provide one example. I wasn’t expecting a point by point rebuttal, but an example or two would have been nice (especially in light of the diatribe you presented against the film).
But I doubt you actually watched the film. Am I right? I say this not only because your accusations aren’t factual, but also because you claim the film is two hours long. Anyone who has watched it would know that it’s nowhere near two hours in duration. Perhaps this is why instead of providing an example of the video’s alleged error(s), you simply refer us to a Mormon spin site. No?
Also, you go so far as to claim the film was “mean spirited.” Really? Can you cite what part of the film was “mean spirited” please? Oh, and while you’re at it, can you please defend your comment that “Most people who watch this are hate filled, and looking for some semblance of evidence to fuel their hatred”? I’d really like to know how you justify coming to that conclusion (while simultaneously accusing others of mean-spirited behavior, I might add) because that, John, is a sweeping and unrighteous judgment of people you don’t even know.
Dear Don:
Your comment perplexes me. You said that it is not unreasonable that two people would comment so close together because you guys both get e-mail updates. Your exact quote was:
“And in response to ‘Pilgrim’, why would you be amazed that two people would comment so close together? After all, we get email updates of comments as they are posted.”
So let me get this straight, there hasn’t been a comment left on this post since January, then within a couple hours of each other a Mormon (and one trying to appear as if he’s not a Mormon, or at least very sympathetic to the organization) both leave critical comments of the film, both of these commenters are from Utah, and neither of these comments have left a previous comment on this thread, yet both receive e-mail notifications when comments are left on this post? And, since the last comment left on this post was January, you’re both just now getting around to responding to a comment eight months later?
And was “we get email updates” simply a Freudian slip or a confession of your collusion with John?
I knew something was fishy right off the bat and you two have only deepened that suspicion. Having dealt with Mormons in the past (and knowing about LDS history), I know that deception and the LDS organization are not strangers.
Your tandem, out-of-the-blue, and very similar-in-tone comments are even more suspicious in light of the recent news piece revealing that Mormons are heavily using the internet to control their image.
If we are to have a serious discussion it helps if everyone involved is up front and honest about where they’re coming from. Sneaky little tricks are best left to the playground.
So bottom line, if either of you wish to take any further issue with the film on this comment thread, then cite an example. Do not merely post nasty, baseless, accusations against the film to suit your agendas. After all, you would expect the same from us if we said that the book of Mormon was “a horribly biased, manipulating, internally flawed, and distorting piece of garbage” that “is totally lacking . . . scholarship. It is religious pornography!” and that most of those who read the Book of Mormon are “hate filled, and looking for some semblance of evidence to fuel their hatred.” I’m certain you would.
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Let’s see: You mention “…nasty, baseless accusations…”. Oh, and also you mention “collusion”, “fishy”, “confession”, and “sneaky little tricks.” Not to mention, “…using the internet (sic) to control their image.” I think you might consider my previous advice: Take a deep breath! Do you, Pilgrim, get email updates? Then as you, me, and probably several others, WE do get updates. Have I watched the film? Yes, going on five times now. I own a copy. Given your seeming need to hear some direct comments, I shall view it again and compile a fair sample. But be aware – since the FAIR article was reasonably thorough, you might as well get ready to accuse me of plagiarism. (Just kidding!)
PS – Tongue-in-cheek to John Wilson: I’d like to meet you sometime. Since these sincere non-LDS Christians have told us we are in collusion and of the same diabolical slant, perhaps we could become friends.
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Dear Don:
Don’t sell yourself (and your potential) so short. One need not maintain a close physical proximity with another to collude. But I’m sure you already knew that.
No, I don’t get email updates (simply my preference) but if I did I wouldn’t do so on Mormon blog posts that I have never commented on. It would be kind of pointless. But anyway, you really did not alleviate my concerns with the whole email update thing but that’s ok. At least you’re willing to offer your perceived errors in the film. I feel we’ve finally made progress. :o)
Now don’t forget, I didn’t doubt that you watched the film, but I did (and still do) doubt John watched it (for the reasons cited). Do I think him watching it is going to change him? No, I don’t have such grandiose notions, but it would be nice if he at least did so before leaving the nasty and mean-spirited comments he left in which he also sweepingly judged an entire group of people as hateful for watching the film. A bit of a stretch (I think you’d even concede).
So here’s the deal, I promise I won’t accuse you of plagiarism (as you suggested) if you promise to drop the name calling and condescending tones in your comments.
Deal?
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For more interesting background on the validity of Mormonism vis-a-vis Christianity and the Bible,
Please see: http://bereansearching.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/is-mormonism-christian/
and
http://carm.org/is-mormonism-christian
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Another good link
http://www.letusreason.org/LDS33.htm
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Thanks Travis…that is truly amazing…I’d never heard that about Adam before…totally unbiblical!
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The Adam-God doctrine taught by Brigham Young is one Mormons really disassociate themselves from nowadays. Yet BY received it by revelation from God, so either he was a true prophet of God and his theology was correct, or he was a false prophet and nothing he taught can be trusted. That leaves them with a real dilemma.
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Yep, Glenn God is perfect, so even if a prophet is wrong is just one place no matter ow big or small, he proven his self a false one
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Hello Mr. Pilgram. On a whim I came back to this website to see what was being said. I can’t say I am suprised at the rethoric. I would like to clarify a few things. First, I am sorry about the tone of my first response. I was incensed at the film and reacted, instead of acting. Cleary my bad and certainly not Christian like of me. Second, I do not live in Utah nor have I ever lived there. I have been in the state a few times. Third, I do not know who “Don” is. I have never met the individual nor do I have any idea where that person lives. The fact that we both wrote about the film in close proximity timewise is just a coincidence. Fourth, I am confused that you would take issue with people who are pro or at least not anti Mormon posting responses on the internet. Those who are anti certainly use it, therefore the internet should be a fair forum for anyone to use. Finally, just for the record, I am a former athiest who became converted to Christ from reading the New Testment. I think we can all agree that sacred book testifies of the divinity of Jesus Christ. I hope anyone who reads this has a good day.
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